Unchained - ERC-6551: Is This the Next Big Leap in NFT Innovation? - Ep. 514

Episode Date: July 4, 2023

The ERC-721 token standard on Ethereum ignited the frenzied world of NFTs. Yet, as the dust settled, their limitations became apparent. Enter ERC-6551, a new standard designed to overcome these challenges. Benny Giang and Jayden Windle, cofounder and founding developer of Future Primitive, respectively, delve into the transformative potential of ERC-6551, a standard which allows every NFT to have a smart contract wallet associated with it. They discuss the exciting new possibilities it unlocks in the spheres of gaming, the metaverse, identity, messaging, and more. Listen to the episode on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Overcast, Podcast Addict, Pocket Casts, Stitcher, Castbox, Google Podcasts, Amazon Music, or on your favorite podcast platform. Show highlights: what ERC-6551 is and how the idea was born the differences between NFT token standards the four big categories of applications for this new token standard why Benny thinks that "network playable characters" will solve many of the problems in the digital space how the token bound accounts work and whether they can interact with existing wallets the security implications of using ERC-6551 what Future Primitive does in the web3 space how creators can benefit from this new development whether it's possible for soulbound tokens to work with token bound accounts how blue chip NFT collections are using ERC-6551, if at all what could go wrong with token-bound accounts that are combined with AI what new things are being envisioned with this new standard Thank you to our sponsors! Crypto.com Arbitrum Foundation TOKEN2049 OKX Guests: Benny Giang, cofounder of Future Primitive  Jayden Windle, founding developer of Future Primitive Previous appearance on Unchained: Your NFTs Can Do Much More Than You Think Links ERC-6551: Non-fungible Token Bound Accounts Tokenbound ERC 6551 — Token Bound Accounts. Every NFT will have their own wallets… by Benny Giang Unchained:  How Soulbound Tokens Could Reduce Speculation and Improve DAO Voting - Quadratic Funding Could Account Abstraction Make Self-Custody Easier for Crypto Users? Ethereum Implements Account Abstraction With ERC-4337 What Can You Do in the Metaverse? Exploring the NFT blue chips What is the metaverse? What Is an NFT Marketplace? Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Hi, everyone. Welcome to Unchained, your no-hype resource for all things Crypto. I'm your host, Laura Shin, author of The Cryptopians. I started covering crypto eight years ago and as a senior editor of Forbes was the first Main Tree Meteor reporter to cover cryptocurrency full-time. This is the July 4th, 2023 episode of Unchained. Buy, trade, and spend crypto on the Crypto.com app. New users can enjoy zero credit card fees on crypto purchases in the first 7,000. days. Download the crypto.com map and get $25 with the code Laura. Link in the description. Arbitrum's leading layer two scaling solutions can provide you with lightning fast transactions at a fraction of the cost, all while ensuring security rooted on Ethereum. Arbitrim's newest edition, Orbit, enables you to build your own tailor-made layer 3. Visit arbitram.io today. You know it, we know it, they know it. The system doesn't just need an update, it needs a complete rewrite. Web 3 offers that rewrite. It allows us to take control back and to truly own what's

ours. Visit okayX.com slash rewrite the system to learn how. Asia's buzzing and everyone's going to token 2049 Singapore on September 13th to 14th. Bala Jusreni Vosin, Mike Novagraths, Arthur Hayes and 200 others will hit the stage joining over 10,000 attendees. Visit token 249.com for 65% off with the code Unchained. Link in the description. Today's topic is ERC 6551, a new token standard for NFTs on Ethereum, and also token-bound wallets. Here to discuss are Benny Yang, co-founder and partner of Future Primitive, and Jaden Wendell, founding developer of Future Primitive. Welcome, Benny and Jaden. Great to be on this show. Thanks much for having us. It's not every day that people seem super excited about a new token standard. But ERC-551 has really piqued the interest of a lot of people.

Why is that? What does it enable people to do? Yeah. So ERC 651 came from, you know, a question of, what if we had a project that was an NFC project that had a character and sometimes we call this a PFP project, right? But our main question was like, why can't you change the clothing or the aesthetic of this PFB character. Why is it that the shirt you get is the shirt you're going to have forever, you know, until the end of time? So we kind of asked this question about nine months ago while we were working with Jeff Staples on the Staples'Vest Project.

Since Jeff Staples been in streetwear for the last 25 years, he's collaborated with hundreds and thousands of brands over the last decade or so, multi-decade, we decided, all right, let's blend digital fashion with NFTs with a twist. And so that let us down this rabbit hole of, okay, there's a really, really hard problem right now in the NFT space. The hard problem is when you want to add state to an NFT or you want to have a dynamic NFT, you want the aesthetic to change. You start to ask yourself a few questions. Do you pursue the off-chain way where you build a database and you have all this kind of centralization where you could render the NFT? Or you go the on-chain way, which is like everything that you put in.

on every item is an NFT and it can be equipable on chain as a transaction. So through this kind of journey as we were feeling in the dark in the last eight or nine months, we realized that there was a potential solution. And the solution is if we link every single NFT with its own account or wallet, if it had that, then the NFT itself can actually own other tokens. It could own ETH, USDC, it could own ERC 721, NFTs, 1155s. And so that was the Sapiens project. that came out of this. It's live now. It's been live for a little while, but you have these

characters that you can equip T-shirts and hats and aesthetics. It's all on chain and it's gas lists on ETH Mainnet. Yeah. And so you referenced a few other of the NFT token standards. So Jaden, why don't you explain how the different standards, so ERC 721, ERC 1155, even Soulbound tokens I probably would put in this category. So if you could explain the differences between those and 6551, that would be helpful. For sure. So there have been a number of standards that have come along, the kind of standardized ways that we own things on Ethereum. You know, we've always had ETH and you can own that in your wallet. And then we had ERC 20 tokens that let us represent fungible money-like tokens.

You can own balances of something. And then we had ERC 721, which came along, which created non-fungible tokens, tokens that are individually unique, that can be traded and bought and sold as unique assets that you own and hold in a wallet. And 1155 kind of mixed those two worlds, It's fungible and non-fungible. And so you have all of these different token standards, ways that you can represent ownership on Ethereum, with solebound tokens being tokens that you can own but never leave your wallet. They're always permanently tied to your wallet.

We have all these different standards and ways to represent ownership on Ethereum. But ERC 6551 isn't really a token standard. It's not a new type of token. What ERC 6551 does is it gives every single existing ERC 721 its own wallet. So every NFT that you already own, every NFT that's been launched since ERC721 came into existence, and every NFT that ever will be launched using the ERC 721 standard has its own wallet attached. It has its own unique smart contract wallet address. That means it can own assets like a regular wallet.

It means it can take actions on chain like a regular wallet. By giving every single NFT on Ethereum on any EVM compatible chain a wallet, We unlock a whole new layer of compatibility for NFTs. And I believe that there are some other types of NFTs that can also own assets or like I saw somebody tweeted at me about Luxo that does something similar. Can you describe some of those and talk about how those differ from this? For sure. So there have been a couple of attempts in the past to standardize NFTs owning assets.

You know, ERC 6551 isn't the first attempt to do this. There have been others. There was ERC 998 that came shortly after ERC 7,000. was launched. There have been others since. And there's also things that are not token standards, but ways that certain chains are configured. So you have chains like flow or some of the move-based blockchains where NFTs owning other assets is kind of a native behavior. But to focus on the EVM world for a second, there have been a couple of standards that have tried to give NFTs the ability to own things. But usually they've fallen into a couple of different pitfalls. One of which is they

require custom logic in the NFTs smart contract. So every NFT on Ethereum exists as a smart contract. And when you trade NFTs, which you're doing is you're interacting with that smart contract. And most of the standards before ERC 6551 required you as an NFT developer or an NFT creator to choose at the time you launch your NFT exactly what kind of utility you wanted it to have. You have to choose which kinds of assets it can own, write the custom rules around that. And as a result, it meant that most NFTs don't support that.

behavior. Most NFTs can't own things. And the NFTs that can own things can only own a certain small subset of assets. A good example is ERC 998. So within ERC 998, you can only hold NFTs, so ERC 721s and fungible tokens, ERC20s. You can't own ERC 1155s, which are kind of semi-fungeable tokens. And the reason is ERC 1155 came after ERC 998 was written. And so those tokens didn't exist at the time that ERC 998 was written. And that kind of high. highlights one of the key problems with writing all of this logic into your NFT smart contract, which is that it's immutable, right? If you choose to support a certain set of rules around what assets your NFTs can and can't

own when you launch your NFT, you can never update that. And that means that you'll always be limited in what your NFT can own. But wallets on Ethereum are not limited. Every single NFT or every single token that's been launched, every single token standard that ever will be launched will likely be owned by a wallet or will interact with a wallet in some way. And so by giving NFTs wallets, we break out of the limitations that are inherent to these NFT ownership standards. We allow NFTs to really own any asset launching.

NFTs get the same rights as user on Ethereum as you do with your wallet. They can own any asset and take any action. So Benny mentioned some of the exciting use cases for this, like the sapiens and being able to change the outfit of your PFP, which obviously makes so much sense. It just feels like that should be. a thing. But what are some of the other applications of the standard that you're most excited about? You know, I saw some chatter around like messaging or about connecting with AIs, etc. So talk us through some of the other exciting options. Yeah. So I'll start with like what is here

present day and then we can kind of then float to their heads in the clouds of like where we think this is going. I mean, there really is like four big categories that are forming. The first one being gaming or some sort of gamification, that's where Staple versus sits in. Other projects that are in this area are FIWRELWREL, so from FUOOCHUS. There were Manifold, which is one of the co-authors of this 6751. They're working on FIO World. It's a very similar concept of Sapiens to collecting digital arts inside of a backpack. Parallow trading card game, they are a top 20 NFT.

They're building a AAA web and mobile gaming. and they're using this whole idea of these characters that have their own wallet and can perform actions inside of the game autonomously. We have folks from all sorts of different blockchain gaming, on-chain gaming that are using 65-5-1 because it makes a lot of sense for a decentralized game inventory. The second category are DAO's. So we have companies like Station, Dowhouse, and what they're doing is exploring the idea of, you know, a lot of these communities, they need some sort of membership, right?

That could be like a pool suite or FWB or, you know, a bunch of refraction dial. They all have these membership cards or NFTs. And the issue with a lot of these dows is that they want to figure out who's the most engaged in this community, who did the most amount of work, who contributed the most. And usually that results into sobal tokens that are put inside of the same wallet, like the menomaz, badges, credentials, all these things. they're all sit on a single layer right now. And the problem is when you sell your membership card, NFT,

everything else kind of stays inside of your Matamask. While with 6151, with companies like Station and Dowell's, they're reimagining like you have a membership card and you have all of this reputation, all these tokens inside of the membership. And so now this can account for, you know, you're standing within the community. The third category is infrastructure and tooling.

So Manifold is one of the, teams that are working a lot of that. IYK, they are specializing in NFC chips and clothing. And so they're building a few modules around 651. The more notable one was a signature module where you could go, you know, tap your phone on, let's say Jeff Staples hat. And then Jeff Stable can actually do a digital signature of his finger and that mince an NFT inside of the hat NFT. We have projects like NOSIS Guild, Rabbit Hole, who are looking into this as well. we've been talking to alchemy, Airstack as well, Zora, a lot of infrastructure marketplace. We're also, of course, the number one question is we are talking to OpenC and the Seaport team.

They are aware of the standard and they do believe that there's a lot of potential with it. We could probably get into that later. The last category is social. So social kind of encompasses a lot of the other things that are not really games. So lens protocols there, tribes, collab land. You have CR3 labs. song camp, Storyverse. So a lot of these projects are exploring the idea of like a decentralized social network

or Web3 messengers or token gating within community solutions. So yeah, definitely a lot of things being built in these four categories. And this is present day. We even have a developer working group that has nearly 750 developers from all of these projects that we mentioned. We have a weekly dev call. Now, if we float above all of this into, you know, head in the cloud, 10,000 foot.

Where we see this going is it's a natural evolution of NFTs. So NFTs have primarily brought the idea to the market of, what if there's a picture that's digital, that you can buy sell trade, and that's recorded on the blockchain. For the last six years, that's been really amazing. It's kind of stirred this whole ecosystem around collecting JPEGs and NFTs. But we think the next layer of this is something we call networked, playable characters or NPCs, which I'm sure we're all familiar with, play games.

But there's two things that we see. Number one is a lot of these metaverses that are out there. What they have is an empty world problem. Nobody really hangs out. It's like a ghost town in these digital worlds, regardless of it's ARVR or on the web. And so our mission with all of this is to populate these empty digital worlds with NPCs and humans. The second thing that we think is super fascinating is when you have an NFT that has its own wallet,

the next thing you could add to it is something like an AI model or an LOM. Then you could start to program your NFT or NPC to perform on-chain actions for you. That's kind of the really, really amazing future of all of this. Imagine you can talk to your doodles and you're like, hey, do the daily quest on Rabbit Hole. And imagine for you, Laura, you go tell your crypto-covin to be like, hey, I want you. you to collect the coolest music NFTs from this week and your Cryptoven goes and it buys the NFTs, you have to give it a budget, but it can kind of perform these actions for you. So we really think the NPC is the natural progression of NFTs. Just to define so network playable character,

like, I don't know exactly what that means. It just means like that you have this NFT that can do these things on chain. Is that what that means? Yeah, that's a very good question. So for us, How we kind of break it down is network means like it's connected by a community that could be like Azukis are all a part of a community and also by like a shared collective state. So that could mean the blockchain, right? Ethereum may net, polygon, optimism. And every single action taken by the NPC should be recorded on a public record of history. So the ledger, right? So that's what network stands for.

Playable for us stands for, you know, the unique roster or the different. playable actions that you can perform. So that unchain, that could be wrapping, burning, it could be curating, it could be purchasing, it could be trading, selling, all of that. And that usually result, in the playable sense, usually results in, like, a sense of control and, like, emotional delight. And then lastly, characters, so characters can be fictional, non-fictional. It could be an anime character.

It could be a cartoon. And usually the character, it could be controlled by a human, like we log in as the NFT, or we can link it with an AI model and kind of let it loose and do its own things. So that's what NPC for us stands for. And so how did the tokenbound accounts work exactly? Like, do you need a special wallet to initiate these transactions? Like you said, like, now any ERC-721 can do this. So can I just open up any wallet?

Like, it doesn't matter which wallet or, yeah, talk about how all this works. For sure. So the ERC-6551 proposal is pretty simple. A tokenbound account is its own type of wallet. So your NFT gets a unique wallet address, and that wallet address can own any assets. And wait, does that mean that then I need like wallets that are built to do this? Like I can't just whip up a Metamask or a Coinbase wallet. Like there are specific wallets to do these types of activities?

Yeah. So token amount accounts are a specific type of wallet themselves. You can use a tokenbound account using your MetaMask because it's kind of like having multiple wallets inside a single wallet. your Metamask wallet owns all of these NFTs, right? And so your Metamask wallet now also owns or temporarily controls all of the token-bound accounts for each of those NFTs. So it's like having wallets inside of your wallet.

And you can control those wallets as long as you own the NFT. By the way, so I just want to break it down like on a technical level because we keep saying wallet, but technically every wallet is associated with one Ethereum address. So what you're saying is that you can have an Ethereum address that has an NFT inside of it and that NFT can have its own NFTs inside of it. And the NFTs inside of that NFT can have their own NMT's inside of them. Is that? Okay, got it. That's right. Yeah, it gets pretty fractal pretty quickly. And so when you give it to us actually. It's, it's cool. And we've seen some really interesting use cases that folks have come up with utilizing this kind of hierarchical

ownership of NFTs. But yeah, what 6551 is every NFT gets a unique wallet address. And so that wallet is owned by the NFT. It's a separate smart contract. It's separate from the NFT. It's separate from your Metamask wallet. You can use any Ethereum wallet. Metamask, Rainbow, nosa safe, whatever you want to control that NFTs wallet. But that NFT wallet, that tokenbound account, will always be owned by the NFT. So wherever the NFT goes, ownership of that tokenbound account follows it. And so you kind of have tradable wallets in a sense. When every NFT has a wallet that comes with it, that means you can buy and sell and trade wallets along with their contents on existing NFT infrastructure. You could buy a whole portfolio of NFTs using a single NFT transfer on

open sea. And so under the hood, all 6551 does is by giving every NFT a wallet, it gives every NFT the ability to hold these assets, the ability to take actions. And it gives you as the an FNFT owner, the ability to hold and manage multiple wallets inside of a single wallet that you own. Okay. And so at the moment, like, what are the names of the wallets that allow you to, you know, engage with tokenbound NFTs or tokenbound wallets, I guess? For sure. So the wallets exist as smart contracts. So anybody can interact with them. You can go on EtherScan and interact with them. You can go on the tokenbound website and interact with them. Any wallet can show you these tokenbound accounts and let you interact. It's not specific.

to any one wallet. As far as we know, tokenbound.org is the only place that has a fully functional tokenbound account client view. So you can go and you can see all your NFTs. You can interact with their wallets. But those wallets are smart contracts. They're totally separate from whatever wallet application you use. So if you use Metamask, that's a wallet client. That lives in your browser. But the tokenbound account lives on chain as a smart contract. Okay. I could have sworn five minutes ago or two minutes ago, you said that you need a different kind of wallet. And you can't just use your MetaMask. I could as when I asked you this and you said that I was correct. So tokenbound accounts are their own wallet, but they're smart contracts. So your Metamask wallet is a

private key that you hold in your browser or in your mobile app, right? That's your wallet. Your wallet lives on your device. It's a private key that you hold. It's 12 words that you've written down somewhere. That's your wallet. But there's a different type of wallet. It's different from the private key based wallets that you're used to. It's called a smart contract. And that wallet lives on chain as a smart contract. It doesn't live on your phone or in your browser. It lives on chain. And so talking about accounts are smart contract wallets. They live on chain and can be interacted with via any wallets, any normal metamask. They're called EOA, externally owned accounts. Any wallet that's based on a private key can interact with smart contract accounts.

So talking about accounts are smart contract accounts. They live on chain. You can use any wallet you want to interact with them because ultimately it's the wallet that owns the NFT. that owns that smart contract account. If you own an NFT in your Metamask wallet, you can use your Metamask wallet to control your tokenbound account for that NFT. If you hold your NFT in a NOSSA safe, you can use the NOSSA safe to interact with the tokenbound account for your NFD.

So that account, that wallet, it lives on chain. It can be interacted with from any wallet, but it is a separate wallet, right? It has a different address than your MetaBassus. Okay. It's basically a smart contract that you've set up to function as a wallet. Yeah, exactly. Okay, okay. Okay, now I'm understanding.

The confusion does exist and we received in a lot of people because we're interchangeably, even in this conversation, using wallet and account and smart contract. And, you know, like there's smart account, smart contract account, smart contract wallet. So it's kind of like, you know, a lot of people are feeling the same way. Exactly. Right. But for us, like, the correct term is an account to token bound account or or smart contract account, that is like the correct terminology. Usually when we refer to wallet nowadays because of the history of wallets, they usually associate with cwords and EOA wallets and like private key and all that.

So it's important that all of these token amount accounts, they don't have public private keys. They don't have seed words that now that you have 100 NFTs, you've got to remember, I don't know how many words there are, but hundreds of words, you don't have to, right? They are smart contracts that are linked to NFTs. All right. So, you know, in the world that we live in, where rug pools happen extremely regularly, you know, you often see people talking about how they were fished and they were an OG and they never thought they would fall for something like that, etc. I got to ask, like, how secure is this? You know, it feels like if you just throw like a bunch of possessions at your NFT and are just like, I want you to own all the things. Like, I'm not sure. Like, what could happen? Yeah. So at the end of the day, wallet security is really important on Ethereum, right? It doesn't matter what kind of assets you own or where they're stored. That wallet that owns them, the security of that wallet is really, really important. And if you're holding a bunch of valuable NFTs and those NFTs have assets inside of them, it's kind of the same security model, whether you own 1,000 NFTs in one wallet or 1,000 NFTs spread across 100 token account. That core wallet that owns all of these assets,

The security of that is really important. And a lot of the times you see these hacks happen, you see these issues happen because people don't take a lot of care with their wallets, right? People will use EOA wallets. People will use Metamask to hold really valuable assets. And then it's just one private key leak away from all of your assets being gone. And so if you have an NFT in your Metamask wallet and your private key gets stolen, you'll lose your assets, whether it's a token-bound account within your Metamask or whether it's just

NFTs. So wallet security is really important. And as always, the best practices is usually to use a hot wallet, cold wallet setup where you have one wallet you use for daily transactions that doesn't hold a lot of value. And then another wallet, a hardware or even better, a multi-signature smart contract wallet that has hardware-backed signers to hold your valuable asset. So wallet security is really important on Ethereum. Token-bound accounts don't make that any more or less secure, right?

Token-bound accounts are as secure as any other smart contract wallet. If you're familiar with things like NOS or Argent or things like that, those are smart contract wallets. We've used smart contract bullets for ages. They're a pretty proven model. And wallet security is what really matters at the end of the day. Oh, interesting. Okay.

Because I thought you were going to say something like, oh, these need to be used more frequently so we understand kind of the surface, the attack surface area. But you're basically saying, like, since it's really just a wallet that a lot of the ways that these can be attacked or already known. Is that, oh, okay. So basically, you would say that people should feel secure using these, like right out of the gate? Yeah. And so obviously, as this becomes a more popular model and more applications get built on it,

that trust is built over time, right? NOS SAFE is really trusted because we've been using it for ages. And people have seen it. People understand that security model well. Tokenbound accounts don't change the security model in any significant way. It's still owning assets. It's just kind of adding an extra layer of ownership, right? Instead of your wallet owning a single asset, your wallet now owns an asset that owns an asset that owns an asset.

So the security model of it is not too different. But there are a couple of things that, you know, security conscious folks should keep in mind. One of which is, you know, if you're holding your tokens in a cold wallet, but you still want to use those token-bound accounts in applications, then you're going to need to use some form of delegation, right? You're going to need a hot wallet that acts on behalf of your cold wallet. And one of the nice things about smart contract wallace is that's very easy to do. You can have a smart contract that's owned by a hardware wallet or a NOSA safe, but has permissions delegated to a hot wallet.

So you can use your tokenbound account day-to-day without worrying about the NFT that owns that account being lost. And that ability to delegate permissions either to a hot wallet or to an AI that controls your wallet for you or to give temporary permissions is a really powerful feature of smart contract accounts. The other things to worry, but there are some other things that come up. It's not so much related to asset security like, like losing assets that you control. But this model of things being tied to an NFT, a wallet being tied to an NFT, and that wallet holding its own assets does open up the door

for certain types of fraud on marketplaces. This has been a problem with any NFT that has state for as long as we've had NFTs, right? Anytime you have an NFT that gives you the right to claim anirdrop, you'll see that people will claim theirdrop and then try and sell the NFT really cheap. And somebody buys it thinking they're going to get access to theirdrop, and then all of a sudden they buy the NFT and they didn't get access to the air job, right?

They thought they were getting an asset they didn't get. And the reason that happens is because most marketplaces treat NFTs like stateless assets. Like as long as you get the NFT in your wallet at the end of the day, that's the only thing of value that they really care about. But anytime you add something beyond just the NFT itself, anytime you add the ability to claim something or add some change to the artwork or you have like a merging of two NFTs into one, that's a a change of state and marketplaces have historically had a hard time dealing with that. And so the same thing applies to tokenbound accounts, right? You can have an NFT. You could put some really valuable asset inside that NFT. Somebody could come along and place a really high bid on your NFT because they think they're getting that really high asset in the token about account.

And then before you sell them the NFT, you take the asset out, you sell them just the core NFT. And then that person is not getting what they expected to on the marketplace. And this is just a problem of any NFT that has state, right? Talking about accounts really just bring up. brings this problem to the mainstream. It makes this every NFTs problem, not just the problem of a couple of NFT collections. And marketplaces are going to have to adapt. And in fact, have already been doing some really good work

to support the concept of stateful NFTs. Because if you're building really innovative NFTs projects, you get into stateful NFTs very quickly. As soon as you want to do something, as soon as you want to add any kind of utility or any kind of extra value, you're making your NFTs staple. So marketplaces are already adapting to this. We've been working pretty closely with a

Seaport teamed as they've been building out some tools around this to build some specific things for ERC 6551. But long term, this potential vectors for fraud, which there are many in the crypto space, this just being one extra, will largely be mitigated at the marketplace level. So talk a little bit more about how the marketplaces have been adapting. Like, what do they need to do in order to be like a kind of a full experience of what it is that you can do with these tokenbound wallets? For sure. So at the moment, Seaport is a really widely used marketplace protocol. And we'll focus on that because they've been really leading the way in a lot of days.

If you read to the Seaport documentation, they've already got sections in there talking about stateful NFTs and the ways to handle them. Within the context of Seaport, there's a thing called a zone. And what a zone is, that's a smart contract that adds some custom validation logic whenever you place an order. You can create an order on Seaport and say, hey, I only want this order to go through if X, Y, and Z things are true. And then Seaport will validate that logic when the order goes through and make sure those things that you wanted to be true when you place the order.

are still true when the order comes through on the other end. That's one of the key mechanisms that Seaport has been working on to allow for stateful NFTs. You can kind of set a list of rules that you want to be true. So in the case of 6551, you can have a zone that says, hey, I want these contents of the token ballot account to still be there when I buy the NFT. I want to make sure that when I buy the NFT,

there's no existing approvals or existing listings on OpenC that somebody could go through and buy on that NFT that I wasn't expecting. And so by giving kind of this general framework, for being able to set rules on orders. It sets the groundwork for being able to build things specifically to protect 6551 accounts to ensure that the contents of the account stay the same, that no additional transactions have been made from the token bound account when you buy the NFT that owns it.

And so we're working pretty closely with the C-4 team on some zones to support that. And that will likely end up being a pattern that's adopted pretty widely throughout the marketplace ecosystem. We were just at the hackathon in Waterloo recently. and one of the teams built ERC6551 native marketplace that had this concept of NFTs having accounts right out of the box, right? So when you buy, sell, list, and trade NFTs on the marketplace that they built, they would handle all of these security concerns out of the box.

And I think that's where this will be shifting is, as marketplaces deal with NFTs that are more complex, that have more state, that have more things attached to them, we'll get better and better tooling around that. And C-Borts really been leading away. All right. So in a moment, we'll talk more about how the all works, but first a quick word from the sponsors who make this show possible.

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Yeah. So the answer is no, right? Because if you had an NFT that had, I don't know, 100 NFTs nest inside, you sell this NFT on OpenC or you transfer it. You'd be paying the same gas of transfer. of one rather than hundreds. So it's the same amount that you would normally pay if you were transferring an NFTs. Okay. Well, that makes it simple. So your company, Future Primitive, obviously, you know, is working a lot on this. Tell us more about Future Primitive, how it's using Tokomat accounts, and what else it is that your company does. Yeah. So Future Primitive was started about a year and a half ago. After I left Dapper, I formed Future Primitive with Steve Chang, who is based in the Bay Area and a partner of kind of Ventures.

And so me and Steve came together, and we kind of came to this conclusion that there was so much more to do in between the Web3 and Culture Space and combining it together. So for the last year and a half, we've been working with streetwear brands, launching really interesting, unique, experimental NFTs. The first venture or startup is with Jeff Staples, the Staples Project.

And that whole idea was re-envisioning what it means to be storytelling on chain using a 25-year-old history staple pigeon brand and merging digital fashion and fashion together. So that's one of them. And then the second one is with billionaire boys club, which is another streetwear brand. That's been around for 20 years. And they formed a new Web3 team called BB3. And with them, we experimented with NFT to NFT decentralized chat. We did SMS minting.

We're currently exploring NFC chips that are in the bracelets that can mint and gamified that experience. And so along this pathway of Future Primitive and investigating all these different consumer experiences, these tooling that we built internally, that's kind of what led us to Primitive. So the whole idea of Future Primitive is that we have this triangle, right, where consumer experiences are at the top. That is everything that we do. we want to ship things that make people happy, smile, or feel angry, but at least feel something. And then down below, that triangle is tooling and tech. And that could be stuff we use internally, stuff that's open-sourced. And then primitives is where we have ERC 6551, token bond accounts.

And so the whole idea of future primitive is basically the spin across this triangle as fast as we can and go through iterations and launch new primitives that are pushing the boundaries for the rest of the space. All right. So I feel like we've covered what ERC 6551 could mean for users. Maybe not incredibly extensively, but by and large, that's what we've been talking about a lot. But what does it mean for creators? What's some new things that you think will appeal to them? Yeah. I think this really opens up the exploration space when building with NFTs. Previously, if you were a creator and you were creating NFTs, it was kind of like being limited to 2D artwork versus 3D art. Right? You can launch an NFT can have some cool artwork. You can have some utility to it. But there, there wasn't this

kind of broad, flexible way that you could add a lot of really interesting things to your NFT. It was kind of like you launched the NFT. People will buy, sell, and trade it. You can build a community around it. There's kind of some very, like, a very like fixed list of things you can do with NFTs. But with token about accounts, that list becomes unlimited. Because really, the functionality of wallets is unlimited. If you have a wallet, you can go and use any data out there today. You can go and trade coins on Uniswap, or you can go and mint NFTs that are up and coming, or you can go and trade NFTs. You can do a ton of things to your wallet. You can message other wallets. And so by giving every NFT a wallet, we've given every NFT the ability to interact with the whole Ethereum ecosystem,

with any DAF out there. And that means that every NFT has a whole bunch of features, a whole bunch of things it can do now that it couldn't do before. And creators can use that in really interesting and unique ways. You know, when NFTs can own other NFTs, you can have, you know, not just game mechanics on chain, but you can have artwork where the NFT that's at the top level changes, like the artwork changes or the experience of that NFT changes based on what's in its token bound account, based on the contents of it. You know, you can imagine like a NFT where you kind of assemble like a whole army of sub-NFTs, and they all show up in interesting ways in the artwork at the top. You have these building blocks for composable NFTs, where the nature of an NFT is made up of what it owns.

And so you have all sorts of interesting ways you can do that for creators. It also means that creators can build really interesting things that their NFTs can do. You can have NFTs that you send on scavenger hunts on chain or NFTs that are competing for a prize on chain or NFTs that are doing any one of a number of actions. And that changes the nature of how you relate to these assets, relate to these pieces of art. If you're creating something, you have not the same. whole of Ethereum at your disposal to create your artwork with, to incorporate into the way that your art functions or the way that your art looks. And so this opens up a huge, incredible playspace for creators to build with. And that's one of the things that we value really highly at future

primitive. One of the reasons we put ERC 6551 through the proposal process was because we want to see this for all creators, right? We're really excited about the things that we get to build on top of ERC 6-551. But it shouldn't just be something that we at Future Primitive are building on. It should be something that everybody in the space can build on. And by going through the proposal process, we can gather everybody who cares about NFTs that have extra features or doing super creative things with NFTs that have sub assets that can go and do things. And so, yeah, there's a whole wide play space that opens up. And I can't remember we talked about a bunch of different use cases, but did you say that it's possible to use these with soulbound

NFTs too? Okay, yeah, totally. Walk me through some examples with that. Like, what could you do with that combination? There are two ways that solebound tokens work with us. One is that every solebound token you've received, if it's an ERC 721, has its own wallet too. And so you can have a solebound token that owns other assets. It just works the same as any other ERC 721 would work. If you flip that around a little bit, you could have an NFT that collects sole bound tokens. So your NFT can collect soulbound tokens to its token bound account, which means you can never transfer them out of the token bound account, but you can transfer the NFT that collected them. And so you can have like, you know, a bunch of immutable stamps in a passport, token bound,

or sorry, sole bound tokens collected by an NFT that can still have value because you can transfer the NFT that owns them. And so both of those ways and ways this can work with solebound tokens. Yeah, I feel like that will be the way everybody will want to use their solebound NFTs because I remember when I learned about soulbound NFTs, I was like, wait, there's got to be many scenarios where somebody would want to move their soulbound NFT. So I feel like now everybody's just going to send it to an NFT that they know they'll never depart with, like laura shin.eath, my domain, I would just send all my soulbound NFTs there and then would never have to worry about. Yeah. And just for listeners in case you can't tell and for whatever reason you don't know what they are or missed our episode on them, there are tokens that couldn't be transferred. So once you receive yours, it's with, the address where you had them sent to for life. And I think it's so interesting because in some ways we're kind of like un-soulbounding. So for example, the Louis Vuitton treasure trunk that they recently sold for a really high price.

So that's a soul-bounded NFT to your ledger or metamask. You know, it's kind of scary that you have such a high-value NFT. And if you just minted it on your metamask, like, you know, I hope you never. that wallet never gets hacked or you never lose the private key. But actually, if you minted a NFT or you had an NFT like an Izuki or Doodles, you could have minted the LV treasure trunk into that NFT. And now it's kind of unsold-bounding it because you can move it around, right? You can sell the PFP character that has the LV treasure trunk, right?

So there's definitely a lot of permutations here on where you can, you know, what should be tied to it and what shouldn't be tied to it. There's also another standard that people are talking about ERC 4337. Describe what that is and also how it is that ERC 6551 can interact with it. That's a great question. ERC 4337 is proposing a system for doing what's called account abstraction. And we're all familiar with private keywaltz, right? You have your metamask, you have your private key, and that private key has an Ethereum of address. So as long as you hold that private key, you can use the Ethereum address. But the thing with private key wallets is you can never change that address. And you can never change that address. And you can never change. change the private key that owns that address. They're always tightly linked. So if you lose that private key, you've lost that address forever. Whoever holds that private key can take things out. And so because they're tightly coupled, it introduces a lot of security risks. What account abstraction tries to do is it tries to abstract the two of those things away, means that your

address is now separate from the key that owns it. And what account abstraction, what four through seven, the proposal for it does, is it specifies a way for smart contract accounts to act kind of like private key-based accounts too, where they can originate their own transactions. The smart contract can be auto-deployed, so you don't even have to worry about it being a smart contract. It comes up with this kind of decentralized system for making smart contract wallets, which we have for a long time, right? We've had no SESA, we've had Arjit, we've had some other ones. Smart contract accounts aren't new. But what 4337 does is it creates a way where smart contract accounts can function similarly to EOA accounts while still having that feature of BIA, not

not being tightly tied to the cider. And so there's a lot of people working on ERC 437 smart contract accounts now because there's so many cool things you can do that really increase the user experience, right? You can pay for gas and things other than ETH. You can have other people pay your gas for you. There's lots of just things that smart contract accounts open up that were previously really, really hard or impossible to do with private key base accounts. And so with this kind of coming wave of smart contract accounts, one way you could think about ERC 6551 is we're giving every single NFT an abstract account. We're giving every single NFT the same capability of being able to use a smart contract account in the ways that ERC 4337 allows.

And so you can use ERC 4337 within the context of ERC 6551. These token bound accounts can be compatible with ERC 6551, can take advantage of a lot of the tooling that's being developed around ERC 4337. And in fact, the smart contract account, implementation that we've released under tokenbound is compatible to smart contract level with ERC 4337. And so by giving every NFT an abstract account, it means that not only do users get all these benefits with this new type of wallet that you can use, NFTs get these benefits out of the box as well.

How do you see the existing NFT collections, particularly the blue chips, reacting to the existence of 6551? Yeah, I think a lot of them have looked into it. They understand the standard. They understand what it could do, right? If you're a blue chip project, the most easiest thing is that now your existing collection, which has a really strong community,

you know, the existing collection of NFTs have their own token amount accounts, like for doodles, for azookis, for board apes, for moonbirds, padji penguins. So that exists and they're aware, right? Again, these are different methods in pursuing strategy, right? there's an area that we call value accrual, and then there's another strategy that's value dispersion, right? So value accrual in our using token by the account is that you have a core collection, and if you want to add more utility or more value,

you would add things inside of the existing collection, right? That helps of a narrative perspective, that helps of the lore, that helps of like imagine you put like some sort of magical gemstone inside of your NFT collection, and then now your character like turns into fire or something like that, right? There's a lot of amazing things you can do when you put things inside of the NFT using the token bond accounts. This strategy, we believe, will actually make the core base of these blue chip projects, the owners, the collectors, a lot more happier.

And we've proven that this is buildable, is super easy. Something like Sapiens is a good example. But currently from what we're seeing in the market, a lot of the blue chips are pursuing value dispersion, right? And we totally get why they're doing it, right? Number one is when you have 10,000 tokens, at a certain point, you are like, man, we should have 50,000 tokens, or maybe we should have 100,000 token. The problem is that when you keep releasing tokens, there's dilution that's going to happen.

The people who bought the original collection did not anticipate that there was going to be 500,000 tokens in the span of five years, right? Of course, that's not the case. But being on Crypta Kitty, there's been two million kitties, and it's been really a big pointed topic of like, wow, the kitties just keep breeding, right? So when we go back to the blue chips and they pursue a value dispersion model, what they're effectively doing is that they're continually air dropping tokens that are in the EOA. So they're doing snapshots, which snapshots now should be totally outruled because they're like outdated and you're still chasing the owner of. you have to set a timestamp. If you shoot it inside of a blue chip NFT, like airdrop, it's deterministic. You already know the 10,000 addresses. So you know for sure that all of the characters, all the

core collection gets it. Right. So when they air drop, what we're seeing is that it's really in favor of the whales of the community, the whales of the blue chip projects. They ultimately receive all these extra air drops that they can flip onto the secondary, right? So it starts to disperse the communities. It's just disperse the value. It starts to create this really huge tension within the project. So from our opinion, like obviously both of these things can be taken however way. It's definitely up to the projects to pursue. But we do feel strongly that value accrual is the best way for most of the Blue Chip project.

Something that occurred to me other than security issues is that there are probably risks of kind of just unleashing these token bound accounts, especially if they're kind of combined with an AI, because then it's like these bots that, you know, not only have economic agency, but are also kind of tied to different people's identities. Where do you think things could go wrong? And are you thinking about different kinds of guardrails that could be in place to prevent those? And if so, what would those be? Yeah, that's a great question.

And we are organizing NPCs. day in late September to rally together, you know, folks from the AI side, from NFT side, from account obstruction to game engine side to really have those conversations of the ethics, what could go wrong, why is this good, why is this amazing, and really like start that dialogue of defining these things. The truth of the matter is, is that, you know, if you think about it from an online social network perspective or even on the blockchain, there already are bots or algorithms or scripts that are running, right? Performing MEV on chain and all of these things.

So this already exists even if we like it or not, right? We can't get rid of them. And so the question is, it's like, well, is it better that these things exist, these bots, these exist without like some sort of identity, or some way to recognize it, where they kind of operate under the table and kind of affect all sorts of things, or whether or not we can bring it to the surface and maybe redefine what NPCs can do. Maybe NPCs can be used for goods. It could be used for bad as well, right? Obviously, we prefer the good side that you could program your NFT to collect really cool things,

do daily quest. But we really see NPCs as a combination of like, well, now there's a very visual that represents the bot. And also, there's a factor of personality, too, right? When you think about bots and algorithms, they don't really have a personality. They just have a single track functionality. They execute that. And then they don't really have feelings, right? But several experiments that we've done plugging into AI models, like, for example, we did one at If Waterloo, we had a Cryptopitty that had all of its genes, right, that were the metadata. We fed that into OpenAI API and actually created a personality for the kitty. And so you can imagine these NPCs like as a Twitter account tweeting funny things and memes and jokes while it's minting NFTs, while it's buying NFTs and also performing tasks or actions.

So I think that's going to vary a lot. And over the next six, eight months, this is going to be a big topic for sure. All right. Well, I also wondered how you expected ERC 6551 to affect the development of the Metaverse, because it just feels like a relatively undefined space. And, Benny, I think you mentioned a little bit about that before. So now that we have this, what do you think will happen to this thing that people have been talking about for so long, but just feels like it hasn't really gone anywhere?

Yeah, I mean, Metaverse is a big topic. I'm highly opinionated. Maybe this is where it gets hot. And the funny thing is in 2018, Snow Crash, I was doing presentations. I think we were talking as well. And at that point, I was like, the metaverse is the future. And later down the road, like, I think all the VCs hopped on that. And they were like, oh, Metaverse Company here, Metaverse Company here.

That reality started to become highly capitalized. And it started to launch all these companies that were Metaverse companies. And the problem is that they focused entirely on like game engine and latency and the graphics and all of this thing, right? And the way I see Metaverses are they are a social consumer app. Social consumer apps are very difficult. You look at something like Clubhouse, you look at blue sky, you know, you look at forecasts or all of this, like any new social consumer app, it's very hard to change existing

behaviors and network effects, let alone now it's like you have a social consumer app layered with all these visuals and game engine and Unreal and like latency and all these things. And it's like the core problem is not solved. And social consumer apps have the empty room problem, right? That's really commonly known in the startup world. Metaverses or these metaphorses have an empty world problem. It's even worse because now you require all these humans to coordinate to meet in a metaverse all at the same time across all time zones.

And hopefully you'll have a great conversation. But that doesn't really happen, right? So our thinking is that, well, if we can't coordinate, you know, all these humans to be in these spaces, what else can we do? You know, in the gaming world since the 80s, you have the new Zelda game that came out. Imagine playing Zelda where there's no creatures and there's no characters to talk to. You're just walking aimlessly in this beautiful world, but what are you doing in this world? And so in this same context, we need to populate these empty worlds, these metaverses, these autonomous worlds. with NPCs that can talk, have personality, can perform on-chain action.

That's what gives liveliness of these worlds. It makes it alive, right? So that's kind of where we see, you know, 6551 or token bond accounts or NPCs filling in that gap. And another way to think about it, too, is, you know, when you log into a Metaverse and you go and experience this and you're playing in it, you don't want to log in with your social security number, right? Nobody's like playing these game worlds with their like, they're like, they're drawing. driver's license as their profile photo, right? People play as a character. People join these

worlds because they get to experience something new through the lens of a character and they get to play through, they play as this kind of embodied identity that's a little bit separate from them, that they have a little bit more expression with. And NFTs are kind of that perfect representation of that second identity, where you can play this game as your NFT. You can embody this space as your NFT. And what ERC-651 does is it gives those characters, those embodiments of your identity, a real on-chain identity. That wallet is a real wallet.

It has all the functionality that your normal wallet does, but you're not collecting all these things in like your garage. You're collecting them and your Nintendo Switch, the thing you play the game with. And when NFTs have wallets, NFTs can play the game too.

They can either be a character that you interact with in the game that's autonomous. It could be a character that you embody. But this tying of wallets to NFTs, Let's NFTs play the game too. All right. So as we've explored, we have this new technological development, which, you know, sounds really cool, but it's still relatively new.

And I imagine there are certain limitations that you're already bumping up against that you'd like to overcome. So what are some new developments that you're looking forward to working on when it comes to ERC 6551? I think we're already talked about security and marketplaces. The other area is infrastructure. right so a lot of the existing infrastructure or indexers or token gated solutions they only look one layer deep right whenever you want to go to one of these cool nfti parties they usually do like a token gating where they check your metamask or ledger and they're like deal on the nfti so they only go one layer deep but we're going to need indexers that can really like go all the way you know if you have like 500 nfts that are in all these

this token graph, that it needs to be able to index all of that, display all the information to the user. So that is something that we're really pushing the boundaries of. And we're currently talking to Airstack and Alchemy and getting that infrastructure set up. And it's a lot more complex. And it's something that will enable all of this. Jaden, you probably have a few more in terms of things that we would like to have. For sure.

I think infrastructure is a big one, right? Anytime there's a new way of interacting with things on chain, it takes a little a while for the tooling to get up to speed, right? We've had NFTs for a long time, but it's only recently that the tools for interacting with NFTs and doing token kidding and things like that have become really robust. Even, you know, a year and a half ago when we started launching NFTs under future primitive, the tooling was much less mature. We've come a long way since then. We were kind of hand-rolling our own tools to do something as simple as give me all the people who own this NFT, right? Now that we've got more robust infrastructure, it's really, it's much easier to build on top of

ERC 721 tokens, build on top of NFTs. You know, the same thing will happen with ERC 6551. Right now, there's not a lot of tooling around it. We're spending a lot of our effort building tooling and open sourcing it, and the community is building a lot of tooling around it as well, but this will become more and more easy to use for developers and creatives and we want to build on it in the future. Another thing we're thinking really deeply about is what does it look like for NFT accounts, for token bound accounts to live across chains, right? Because as Ethereum scales, you'll be interacting more and more on these layer twos, on things that aren't made net Ethereum.

How does this concept of an NFT, this concept of a token, fit into that world as we scale? And there's lots of different ways that people kind of think about this problem, but we're thinking really deeply around, like, how can you have an NFT that lives on one chain? Because NFTs kind of have a single native chain available on a single chain that that's their origin. How does that NFT interact with a game that's on another chain or interact with an application that's on another chain? We've got some early experiments that we're building around,

but I think as the usage of ERC 6551 involves, as more layer two spin up, as that's, you know, the onboarding to these chains is easier and easier. As more and more traffic moves there, and volume moves there, how do ERC 6551 accounts fit into that world? And so we've got, we've got some stuff that we're working on there, the token bounds implementation of talking about accounts, has some stuff built in to handle cross-chain things. But I think this, you know, cross-chain world that we're living in is going to change very rapidly. Like, how do you interact across chains is a problem that's not really solved yet. We have a lot of solutions that have a lot of trade-offs and a lot of complexity, but kind of that end game of

living in a cross-chain world hasn't been achieved yet. And I think seeing that through the lens of 65-5-1 will be interesting as folks build on it. But you're saying that that cross-chain interoperability will only be possible with other EVM-based chains. For 6551 accounts specifically, yeah. For ERC-6551, it's very EVM-specific, right? There are other projects that are working on other chains, like if you're building on Solana, I think there's some projects working on what they call NFT escrow,

which is a similar idea, NFTs having accounts. If you're building on a blockchain like Flow or a move-based blockchain, they kind of have this concept of NFTs owning other tokens as like just part of how the blockchain works. It's just a native feature. And so this is the ERC 6551 is EVM specific. If you're building on an EVM compatible chain, you can use ERC 6551.

Okay. Yeah, I was just wondering about that because I feel like the three chains that have seen probably the most NFT type activity is Ethereum, Salon, and Bitcoin. And so I was like, hmm. But anyway, all right, well, you guys, this has been a fascinating discussion. Where can people learn more about each of you and your work? Yeah. So my Twitter is Benny Yang, future primitive.xyZ, tokenbound.org.

I tweet nonstop. So I think that's the area to follow me if you want to read some weird tweets about 6551 and all that. And if you want to reach me, if you're a developer, or want to just DM about some of the crazy technical stuff behind ERC6551 at Jaden underscore Wendell on Twitter. We also have a developer working group if you want to get involved. So you can track Benny or I down to join that.

We've got a whole bunch of devs from a lot of different projects. all contributing to the spec, all building on top of it, and it's a really good time there. Additionally, if you are interested in the EIP process as a whole, if you want to contribute to that whole process, which is a real core thing in Ethereum, the Ethereum Magicians Forum is the place to do that. If you really want to dive into the nitty-gritty of how does this proposal work, how can we push it forward, how can it be improved? Would love any comments there. Perfect. Well, it's been a pleasure having you both on Unchained. Thanks so much, Laura, for having us.

Really, it's been a fun. Thanks again. Thanks so much for joining us today. To learn more about Benny and Jaden and ERC 6551, check out the show notes for this episode. Unchained is produced by me, Laura Shin, with up from Kevin Fuchs, Matt Pilcherd, Zach Seward, Juanarvanovich, Sam Shremyroman, Jinni Hogan, Leandro Komino, Pam Ojandar, Shishonk, and Margaret Coria. Thanks for listening.