Unchained - Hong Kong's New Crypto Regulation: Will It Attract the Industry? - Ep. 505

Episode Date: June 13, 2023

On June 1, Hong Kong implemented new crypto regulations to license exchanges. Two experts – Angelina Kwan, CEO of Stratford Finance (and former COO of BitMEX), and Adrian Lai, founder and managing partner of Newman Capital – weigh in on the new rules in Hong Kong, which tokens can be listed, recent reports that China may be sanctioning this activity, and how the crypto community is responding so far. Plus, they dissect the latest developments of the digital yuan, whether China will ever embrace public blockchains, and the shifting global regulatory landscape for crypto, and more. Listen to the episode on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Overcast, Podcast Addict, Pocket Casts, Stitcher, Castbox, Google Podcasts, TuneIn, Amazon Music, or on your favorite podcast platform. Show highlights: Angelina’s and Adrian’s backgrounds in crypto in Hong Kong how crypto in Hong Kong has evolved over the years what the new Hong Kong Securities and Futures Commission (SFC) rules consist of, including which tokens will be allowed in the newly licensed exchanges  how the Hong Kong Monetary Authority (HKMA) has taken onboarding crypto companies in the banking system very seriously  why Angelina says that crypto companies have already stopped leaving Hong Kong how some people are worried how a potential crackdown on crypto in China could affect Hong Kong why the SFC has committed to issuing a paper on tokenization and why it is particularly interested in real estate  the importance of the development of the digital yuan whether the new regulations in Hong Kong mean that China is prepared to adopt crypto in the mainland how China is 'excelling' at adopting real-world use cases, according to Angelina why you can't say “NFTs” in China and why the metaverse represents a “huge problem,” according to Adrian whether China will let public blockchains succeed  how the global regulatory landscape has been changing and what it means for the future of digital assets whether Africa is the next frontier of growth and what role the Middle East is playing Thank you to our sponsors! Crypto.com TOKEN2049 Guests: Angelina Kwan, CEO of Stratford Finance Adrian Lai, founder and managing partner of Newman Capital Links CoinDesk:  Hong Kong Securities Regulator to Accept License Applications for Crypto Exchanges Starting June 1 How Hong Kong Is Gearing Up to Regulate Stablecoins Cointelegraph:  Hong Kong’s regulatory lead sets it up to be major crypto hub China doles out millions in digital yuan in bid to boost adoption: Report Chinese city public servants to receive digital yuan salaries starting May TechCrunch:  Hong Kong’s crypto rules help it fit in more than stand out, but experts say that’s good A peek into China’s stance on web3 CNBC: One country, two crypto systems: Hong Kong harbors crypto hub ambitions despite China’s crackdown Bloomberg: Hong Kong’s Crypto Hub Ambitions Win Quiet Backing From Beijing Hong Kong Securities and Futures Commission: SFC concludes consultation on regulation of virtual asset trading platforms South China Morning Post: Hong Kong’s crypto market will not have ‘light-touch regulation’, HKMA chief says as city prepares new rules Forkast: China: Zhengzhou City proposes metaverse plan Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Hi everyone, welcome to Unchained, your NoHoIP resource for all things crypto. I'm your host, Laura Shin, author of The Cryptopians. I started covering crypto eight years ago, and as the senior editor of Forbes, was the first mainstream reader-reporter to cover cryptocurrency full-time. This is the June 13th, 2020-23 episode of Unchained. Asian's buzzing, and everyone's going to token 2049 Singapore on September 13th to 14th. Bala Gis Srinivassin, Mike Novagrats, Arthur Hayes, and 200 others will hit the stage, joining over 10,000 attendees.

Visit token249.com for 65% off with the code unchained. Link in the description. Buy, trade, and spend crypto on the crypto.com app. New users can enjoy zero credit card fees on crypto purchases in the first seven days. Download the crypto.com app and get $25 with the code Laura. Link in the description. Today's topic is the state of crypto regulation in Hong Kong. Here to discuss are Angelina Kwan, CEO of Stratford Finance, and Adrian Lai, founder and managing partner of Newman Capital.

Welcome, Angelina and Adrian. Hi, Laura. Hello. Good to see you. On June 1, Hong Kong implemented new crypto regulations that are welcoming to the industry in various ways. We're going to unpack these and what it could all mean for crypto. But first, let's give everyone your backgrounds so they understand your perspectives on the market, and know your experience with crypto in Hong Kong.

Angelina, let's start with you. Thanks, Laura. I've spent most of my career either in compliance roles, setting up compliance functions as well as COO roles. I spent a number of years at the Securities and Futures Commission in Hong Kong as a director of enforcement as well as the director of supervision of markets, and I set up the compliance function at Hong Kong exchanges and clearing. So I've spent quite a bit of time in the regulatory,

space and work very closely with the SFC and regulators around Asia Pacific. And how did you also come to like know about crypto or work in crypto? Well, it was really funny. After my, after setting up the compliance function at HECS and setting up their foundation, I was approached by headhunters who asked me, did I know anything about Bitcoin? And since I had advised BitFinex in early 2013 about setting up an exchange, I did say, yes, I knew, and I was recruited by that headhunter to become the global COO for Bitmex. So I was thrown into what was probably one of the most interesting jobs in the world at the time to set up everything for Arthur Hayes and his team. And I was a global CEO over there.

So that's how I got even more deep into digital assets. Yeah, and with one of the true OGs of the space, which. Yes. Yeah, it is amazing and must have been really fun. Yes. I also got the licenses for Hashkey, which is another licensed digital asset exchange in Hong Kong. And I advise a number of stable coin as well as traditional finance companies in Hong Kong. Oh, I see.

And Adrienne, how about you? Well, thanks, Laura. Probably my experience is less interesting than Adrian. But I was working at Black Rock until I left in 2016. And I joined a space in early 2017. I started to do a bit of prop trading. Obviously, most of my money actually doing prop trading. In ICOs, Eve was going up to $1,400.

I held it to $80. Actually, listen to Arbor Hayes as well. Abre He's saying that it should be double digit for Eve. And kind of losing hope a bit of, crypto and looking at from different perspective, I started a company called Liquefai doing tokenizations. It was a time for STOs. So back into 2017, I think I was too early for that, but I actually looked into a lot of regulations, quite early developed regulations around Asia for STOs. And until 2021, I decided to re-enter as an investor and I started new main capital, mostly doing

investment and venture side of things in U.S., Southeast Asia, and looking back at Hong Kong because of what is so exciting over the past 12 months in terms of regulations evolving not just in Hong Kong, but overall in the region. So portfolios of us, whether it's in U.S. or elsewhere, is trying to move to Hong Kong, and that's sort of why me and my team is looking much more into how we can help out, not just talking to Regulator, but also the government side of things. but Angelina has been the pioneer in this space. We're happy to be on this podcast with you.

Thanks, Adrienne. So I know we're going to go into these regulations that were implemented on June 1st, but before we get into all the details on that latest development, why don't you both give us a brief history of the crypto industry in Hong Kong and the rules there and how they've evolved over time? So as early as 2013, when Giancarlo and Jean-Louis came to me as two young men and said, we want to set up an exchange. And I said, I'm sorry, we don't have rules in Hong Kong for a crypto exchange because they were telling me how exciting crypto was.

And just to clarify, these are the executives of BitFenex. Yes, they were the two founders of Bitfinex. And they were very excited and wanted to set up an exchange in Hong Kong. And since I had come from regulating exchanges at the SFC, the Securities and Futures Commission, I was introduced to them to help them set up. And I said, I'm sorry, we don't have any regulations such as this, but I guess if you wanted to start, I guess it's something that you can think about. So they did end up starting their Bidfinex exchange, and that was the start of one of the major exchanges. And you know that, of course, other exchanges started elsewhere, Mount Cox and Japan and so on and so forth. But what happened was we didn't have any legislation at all. And that was the start of

with Bitmex starting its derivatives exchange. And then other exchanges like FTX also took the lead in Hong Kong. Roughly in about 2016, 2017, all of these founders started work on their exchanges. There were no regulations whatsoever. And in fact, when I joined Bitmex, there was a lot of derision by market participants of regulators is that why would a ex-regulator join digital assets like me? Oh my God, has she gone crazy? Because, again, Bitcoin was looked at as a negative thing.

It was looked upon as a scam and so on and so forth. But what happened was you had the ascendancy of digital assets and interest in it. And Bitmex, of course, took the lead. Finance also was growing. FTX was also growing at the same time, then crypto.com. So going into 2018, 2019, almost all the major exchanges had set up in Hong Kong because of the low tax regime. Again, regulators started looking at it, but they really didn't want to do anything about regulating it, nor did they really know about it. The CFTC did try to get the SFC to take some investigations forward, but they were not successful because it was.

so hard to investigate digital assets. So it wasn't until roughly 2020 did things start getting a little bit strained, I should say. The SFC started to put in an opt-in regulatory procedure whereby you could actually put in an application and possibly get a license. The first one to do that was OSL and the second was hash key at the time. So the SFC had issued these rules and other firms started looking into getting into it. But the first one, of course, that was approved later was OSL. And then about a year later, HASHkey was also approved. So finally, the SFC started getting, I won't say worried, but more concerned and started to publish more legislation in this area. And one of the initiatives that was proposed was to ban all retail investors

from investing in digital assets. Now, at that time, I was at the FSDC and we brought up this issue to the Financial Services Development Council. And at that time, we also told them that if this would happen. Most of the houses, the golden unicorns that had started in Hong Kong, would probably move away. And that included Bitmex, crypto.com, who did eventually move away, finance, and of course Bitmex and other houses. So the FSDC under King Ow and Rocky Tong undertook a review of the digital asset business. We had a very high-level meeting, which all the houses came and basically told everything. thing to them about their difficulties in opening accounts and so on and so forth. Insurance, or lack of insurance, visas that weren't able to be gotten because the company did not have

licenses. So all of these were taken into account, and I'm sorry I'm telling you a longer story, but in the beginning, there wasn't much interest. Later, when Chris Hoy became the new secretary for financial services. He took a very big interest in this area and convinced the SFC to start looking into this and take it as a real asset. So by 2021, there was discussions

of whether or not to allow retail. At that time, again, the door slammed and they stopped allowing retail to trade. That thought process was still there. But then just last year, as you saw with the consultation conclusions, there was a vast sea change. And I think what really was the major decision maker was that John Lee came into power. Chris, the Secretary for Financial Service, worked with the new administration to speak to China, to allow Hong Kong to be the regulatory sandbox. And as such, the SFC also about-faced and allowed retail. to be traded. And because of this, we're seeing a huge enthusiasm back into Hong Kong where a lot of digital asset players are coming back to Hong Kong. And you're seeing Web 3 and a lot of new innovation coming back in. And I think this is something that both the Hong Kong government wanted.

And I think, of course, China is very pro making sure that Hong Kong can succeed and will succeed. So I think these are two very positive pieces of news. Sorry, a little bit longer than unexpected. Sorry, Adrian. One question when you said that they put a stop to or banned trading or whatever it was. You said in 2021, was that at the same time that China banned trading and mining for crypto? Or are those separate? I think it was roughly 2018 when mining was banned. Yeah.

It was different. And also, China has always banned crypto. They didn't enforce it as much, but it became more and more enforced. in terms of the selling of crypto or digital assets in China. But this rule... In 2021, right? In 2021. Yeah, back in 2020, even, they had already banned it.

So many of the big exchanges through the Great Firewall, you could not actually get access to Bitmex, for example, in China. Okay. And Adrian, did you want to add anything on the history of crypto regulation or the crypto industry in Hong Kong? Well, I think Angelina have given the full download. basically for the past 10 years in terms of regulations. Well, I think Hong Kong,

I'll try to come from a different perspective, more from the community building and overall the commercial perspective. Because I was in touch with crypto back to 2013, actually when Johan Chu from Kinetic brought Vitalik to Hong Kong. So he called me and said there's an interesting BATU should go, and I went there, there were just five people. So Hong Kong was as early as when Vitalik, came to Hong Kong, we have no one really heard about Ethereum.

But it was one of the targeted cities for the early OGs, crypto OGs, actually. And going back to 2017, so fast forward to 2017, because I was in front of this green trading crypto in October of 2017, which China banned crypto trading and Bitcoin mining at that time. So there was an influx of players from China, whether it's OKX, whether it's Binance, who will be to Hong Kong. So I think for two or three years, Hong Kong was treated as a place that you want to be there because there was no reculation.

Ironically, the reclamation is clear now. But at that time, people came here because our regulations was much slower, much lower than other jurisdictions. So it's ironic that some of the biggest companies, whether it is at TX at that time, including Alameda, crypto.com, not anymore credit that time yet, but, you know, OKX, Wobie, all of them actually had kind of like the headquarter in Hong Kong and the main people in Hong Kong until, I think Angelina already mentioned, some major consultations or kind of views were represented by the regulator.

So companies in crypto's realized that Hong Kong is going to do something, whether it's good or bad at that time. I think the sign of a positive sign from Recolator just was presented last year, but before that it was confusing for the industry. But confusing sometimes is good for an industry because they kind of feel like we are not going anywhere extreme. Until last year, obviously, there was a good sign in the Hong Kong FITAB week, announced on the Hong Kong Fintech week. It was so different from before because if Angelina and us, We were in the industry for a long time.

There was no another time that whether it's the SFC or the financial secretary or Chris Hohe or any level from the government came out and say we are going to push web free in a bit conservatively but also positively. Last two weeks, I have some inside close-door meetings with the government as well, with senior levels. I think one major questions that everyone wants all the time is has China and Donald. Hong Kong pushing web free. So there's obviously not a public answer out there, but I think the government official already talked to Beijing quite a lot on this and have the kind of go-for-it signed from the Beijing government, which is very encouraging because commercially every portfolio will ask,

it would be different from before that, or is it the same from before, that a ban will happen if some illegal activities or something negative happened for industry. Will Hong Kong just do it an 180-degree turn if something happens? So I think it's not the case because the government really has a positive view on pushing the output. I agree with Adrian completely. I don't think there's going to be ever again another 180-degree turn, but there will be

enforcement actions by the SFC if people break the rules once the licenses are in place. So we can expect that it's going to be. be a thriving industry, but one that takes care of its investors and grows to be a real asset class, which we've always known it's a real asset class, but now it's really going to be a developed asset class in Hong Kong, which is highly exciting. Yeah, so let's dive now into these new rules. So on June 1st, the Hong Kong Securities and Futures Commission, as we've been discussing, began accepting applications for virtual asset service providers to serve retail customers. What is it that these new rules say?

I jump in at any time, Adrian. But in a nutshell, basically, if you wish to offer digital assets in Hong Kong, you must be licensed. The licensing regime is based on same product, same as what is being done with securities and futures. You will get a license and you will have to comply with rules and regulations. You will need to put in internal controls that are documented, which to me are best practice in any ways that you would want to put in place. You will need to take care of your customers. They will need to be suitable to be able to understand digital assets. There will be segregated accounts.

There's security over how the first. firms run, you will have a number of requirements to keep minimum capital, so the firm will not go bankrupt, and there will be requirements for responsible officers that will look after the firm and be responsible for the firm. So very much the same way that securities firms are run in Hong Kong, the SFC will require the same of digital asset firms that are getting licenses. And already it's proven the system works. We already have licensed companies in Hong Kong, both in the fund management space, as well as OTC Broking. Those that are brokers can uplift their licenses to be able to offer digital assets through a licensed digital asset provider, like OSL, for example.

And then the new trading firms that are coming in, the digital asset exchanges, people from Binance from what we hear, all the way to new firms that are setting up in Hong Kong will be able to get licenses or already have put in licenses. Yeah, and one other requirement that I just wanted to flag for those people who have been scarred by things like Mount Cox and FTX is that there's a cold storage requirement of 98% of the coins need to be held in cold storage, which I think is a really great regulation. So Adrian, can you describe what it is that they can list in terms of the tokens or what requirements the tokens have to meet? I believe the tokens need to have a 12-month track record.

So listed probably elsewhere for 12 months, issue for 12 months. And, well, but jumping back a bit, well, the regulations, I think it's encouraging because they actually mimic quite exactly what the tradition is. security law in Hong Kong serves. So basically, if you are a traditional broker or traditional asset managers in Hong Kong, obviously you have a standard way to deal with SFC in terms of your activities. So when you look at the guideline issued by, not the guideline, but the new law issued by SFC in terms of License 7, which is the trading facilities in Hong Kong, I think it's pretty similar to traditional way of dealing with the SFC. But also, in the same time, we take care of specific things that you will think about in crypto,

just same as the question that you ask in terms of the token, whether you have, I think it has to be a 12-point strap record, including in certain two indexes, I think at least two indexes. When you look through that universe, and obviously with the quailet requirement, But one thing pretty interesting is they always require the platform operator to do due diligence. So that is one key thing. So you never think about you as a company getting a license and you could do whatever, right? You basically have the fiduciary to do the due diligence.

Same as any kind of broker, if you get a license, as a broker, you need to do due diligence in terms of what you're selling to your clients. So I think that will impose certain requirement on exchanges, even licensed, they're trying to list the tokens. So you heard some of the exchanges in the market already say they're going to list 16 tokens, whether it is true they already get approval or they talk to the regulator. At the end, I think they have the discretion, but up to whether something happens, and if they haven't done the proper due diligence, they will be punished by the regulator. So I think the regulator has given a kind of a pull-and-push approach,

So given a bit of flexibility out there, with the guidance, you need to follow. But at the end, you have to bear your responsibility as the operator yourself. And so, I mean, to me, that seems like a high bar to have, you know, the coins need to be listed in two different independent indexes. And one needs to be a provider that has experience in the traditional financial sector. So how many assets, like you mentioned 16, like, so which assets do you expect will be offered? like how limited do you think it will be compared to, you know, what we currently see on like finance? Well, Angelina, obviously, you have your own comments as well, but I have questions when I look at the 16 coins, I think it was announced by when exchange out there, some tokens,

I do have questions on why they could be listed. Which tokens were those? So sandbox tokens. I would do have questions on, in terms of the volatility, liquidity, and whether it should be traded on platform day one. Well, I'm not saying that it's not going to, it shouldn't be traded for five months later. But from an investor perspective, I think it is the first five tokens, Bitcoin, Ether,

and probably some of the bigger ones, except stable coins, because stable coins are not allowed to trade now on the Hong Kong exchanges. Some of the tokens like sand is probably a bit dangerous for day one. As I mentioned, it's a discretion for a platform operator

to list them as long as you know you have the license approved finally. So if you were an operator, which you were saying that you would be comfortable with five, which five, Bitcoin Ether and then which are the other three? Well, let me look up the top 10 now, actually. You know, Bitcoin Ether is obviously the choice that, you know, not excluding a stable coins, probably not B&B for now. Solana, Polygon, not top 10, but could be safer choices than listing some of the application-based tokens.

So I think foundation-based token probably is the easier ones to get listed initially, and is the less volatility compared to some of the application-based tokens as well. So, Laura, one of, Laura Natria, one of the new areas, which is quite novel, that has been introduced as a part of the regulation, is the fact that... the onus has been put on the firm to take responsibility. So therefore, a new criterion has been put in place that requires the firm to have an admissions committee. So that admissions committee has to meet if it wishes to list a specific token. Adrian has mentioned some of the characteristics that can be used as a part of the diligence process. But the most important thing is the firm will need

to take responsibility, and the responsible officers will need to take responsibility for this. So a due diligence list of why the firm has made these decisions to allow Bitcoin and Ethereum to be listed, that the fact that they were listed on two or three exchanges or different products, or they're approved somewhere else, all of that, that information and background has to be in the report that actually is tendered to this admissions committee, and all of that needs to be minted by the licensed person. And why is the SFC taking such a stance on this is because they do not, and they did not approve the product. Unlike any other product in Hong Kong, if you offer a fund in Hong Kong, that has to be licensed by the investment products division of the SFC.

It will be authorized and there will be all sorts of documentation on why the SFC approved that product. But for Bitcoin, for Ether, none of this has been approved by the SFC. It's just appeared because of Saitoshi Nakamoto or Vitalik Bouturin. And it's up to the firm then to take the responsibility. And if the firm lacks that documentation and that due diligence, I think the SFC will take action. Maybe in the beginning, giving a bit of leeway, but firms will need to get their paperwork and due diligence in line to make sure that they protect investors. And I think that's a very novel way of making sure that firms make sure that they have the analysis before allowing a sand or a doggie coin or whatever it is. to be unleashed on investors and investor protection is in place.

So that's just building on what Adrian was saying. But this was a very unusual and new way of looking at things, which I thought was quite interesting. And I asked Elizabeth at length, Elizabeth is the young lady who did the policy and wrote the policy. And what's her last name? Elizabeth Wong was the team lead that actually drafted much of it. of course, within the commission, everybody drafts policy together, but she actually was the lead person taking that. And I had interviewed her through another interview at the Hong Kong Securities Institute to ask about this and other questions. So. I mean, it seems like this is kind

of a tempered way of inviting crypto, right? It's like, we're going to license the exchanges. You know, there are these certain standards about listing tokens. And so, the other things that I think I saw discouraged, like one of them was airdrops. Like, what are some other kind of like parameters they've put around these things? So, you know, it's like inviting crypto activity, but only within a certain boundary. That the people running it will be licensed and be held accountable. And you will know exactly who is running the firm and that they will be located in Hong Kong. So it's very clear whether or not they're going to be licensed or not. And it'll be very clear, unlike what happened with FTX, of where are you going to get recompense?

If you've opened an account in Hong Kong, then you can take action in Hong Kong. The regulator will take action if you complain. And there'll be a way that you can grab onto something. Whereas if you know with FTX now, for those of the people that have taken losses, Hong Kong investors, because they didn't sign up with a Hong Kong licensed company, were at the last in the line to get any recompense, if anything, from the FTX proceedings that are going on in the United States. But in the United States and Bahamas, they will actually get the first bite of the cherry in terms of funds going back to the aggrieved. investors. So that's a very, very big difference to protect investors. Sorry, I'm talking a lot. Adrian, did you want to add in stuff? No, I think it is really, you actually strike a really good

point in terms of the RO, because RO responsible officers, again, same as any type of regulated activities in Hong Kong. They are held responsible for any actions you're going to take. It reflect on the RO level, also reflect on the company level, which is quite unusual, as Angelina mentioned, that you approve internally based on deal diligence and certain token to get listed, but at the end, it's the company to be blamed. It's quite a different approach from the rest of the other kind of companies to be regulated. And for those of us who are ROs, I'm also an RO or responsible officer, it's criminal. If something goes wrong, it's my head, my license. So I'm going to be very careful with the decisions that I make. I'm going to make sure that the company is protected,

as well as investors are protected, because I don't want to be carted off to jail. And you have seen actions being taken against responsible officers who have been derelict in their duties. And, I mean, that's a firm is as strong as the people that run it. And that's why that regime is in place. And this is to make sure that digital assets as a licensed activity will be good for investors and will protect investors. And I think that's the great part of all of this because we're on our pathway to become really an accepted asset class, at least in Hong Kong and in Asia Pacific.

Yeah. Yeah, I definitely see this as being a good model for other jurisdictions as well. So in a moment we're going to talk about other areas of regulation that we could see coming out in Hong Kong. But first a quick word from the sponsors who make this show possible. The scorebed app here with trusted stats and real-time sports news. Yeah, hey, who should I take in the Boston game? Well, statistically speaking. Nah, no more statistically speaking.

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Back to my conversation with Angelina and Adrian. Something that was really interesting to me was that I read that the Hong Kong monetary authorities even urging banks to open accounts for crypto companies, which given everything that has happened recently in the U.S. with Silvergate and Signature Bank and even Silicon Valley Bank a little bit and the debanking of a bunch of crypto companies here. It just seemed like a geopolitical play, I guess you could say. So I was wondering, you know, is that kind of activity actually drawing crypto firms and given what we were talking about in terms of this sort of limited kind of space in which to play with all the different regulations, is all of this actually attracting

crypto companies? I think it is. What about you, Adri? Well, definitely, well, but there's always a question. So when these things happen on the news and your portfolio asking, is that real? because usually people have a pretty skeptical true as what's happening in Hong Kong because over the past several years we've been talking about how we can propel crypto but at the end of the day we know that it was real this time but people outside Hong Kong doesn't know it's real.

So previous way, I think there was a Bloomberg article coming out when Silvergays, all of those banks got shut at that time and when Chinese banks is trying to recruit crypto companies for bank accounts and Bloomberg was doing that news. Actually, I was contacted by Bloomberg on that as well, but I was not sure whether it's real or not.

Because when I talked to all these Chinese banks at that time, I think there was conversations for not too senior level with the RMs, I mean, relationship managers, with clients in terms of getting open up bank accounts. So I was still not convinced it was more policies in place or a narrative in place that banks are going to open up crypto accounts until I think some of the even virtual banks in Hong Kong talk about it. So you see there's a spread of these kind of messaging across news outlet and banks

start to talk about that. I think portfolios start to get comfortable. And even even until I think last two weeks, some of our portfolios want to open a bank account, just operating bank account. So it's not crypto in and now all days, but just a crypto company trying to open a bank account with banks is actually getting. easier. So believe or not, I think the relationship managers, three years ago, you talk to them, not as a crypto company, you talk to them and tell them you are a technology consulting company

or your technology advisor company to get rid of that, even though your whole website is all blockchain, if you get a brand as an RM, then you probably could still make it happen. I think these days, if you open up as a crypto company's operating bank account, the RM actually takes your cost. So I think it's pretty encouraging. Adrian's right. It is a bit more encouraging. And the HKMA and the SFC have actually met once already. There's a second meeting which I've just received an invitation for that will be held in a few weeks.

I think I forgot the date. But this will also be to expedite bank accounts. And I think the HKMA has taken it very seriously. So if you're definitely licensed or on the road to being licensed, you will be able to get a bank account. It's for the ones that are in the process of getting a license that will take a little bit longer. But I'm sure that if you showed evidence of your license application or things like that, I think banks will probably start moving towards getting you banked up. The other area that was really, really difficult for licensed companies was to get insurance.

So you had to think of really unusual ways to get insurance to fulfill a requirement of the licensing regime. So you'd get specie license that was pretty much useless. If you could show an insurance policy, at least that fulfilled it. Now the insurance regulators as well as the Federation of Insurers are actually working with FSDC to talk to insurance companies so that digital asset firms can get insurance. So all of these are slowly working through the system. And I have to say thanks to work from the FSDC as well as the FSC and HKMA working together to move this with Invest Hong Kong.

All of this has just pushed it along, which has been a lot better. And I think the government realizes that, hey, people, the smartest of smart, the digital asset firm owners are leaving Hong Kong. That means tech people are going to get pulled away. And there were a lot of people going to Dubai. There were a lot of people going back to the U.S., Austin, Texas. And I think now we sort of, yeah, now, well, maybe it's the other way around now with the thing with Gary Gensler's newest case. But nevertheless, I think that stem of leaving has sort of stopped, thankfully, and people are thinking about coming back, which is very, very good for Hong Kong. So something else that looks like it's on the horizon is staple coin regulation in Hong Kong.

So what do you think that will look like, and when do you think that might happen? The HKMA has already announced that they will put out consultation for the regulation of stablecoins. they've already soft consulted a number of stable coin issuers, some of which are very interested, some of which are not so interested. Because there is a huge level of, not huge, but there is a level of regulation, and some of those stable coin providers will need to be located in Hong Kong. for and I'm sure Adrian can sort of explain it better than I can. Some of these stable coin people are worried about their safety in Hong Kong because of where the coin and how it can be used and who's buying it and so on and so forth. So there are concerns even though we're one country, two systems. So some of them have already indicated they will not be licensed or they will not seek licensing.

and we'll prefer to be outside of it. I don't fully understand they're concerned about their safety because of where, you just said where the coin, meaning like because they could be used to try to get access to the reserves, or what do you mean by that? No, I mean, basically, if they're systemically important, I'm just echoing what some of these stable coin issuers have talked to me about, that they're slightly worried about being in Hong Kong because it's so close to China.

And even now, and even though there has been a clear regulatory path for digital assets, crypto people are very, shall we say, conservative in terms of security. And there are worries by certain crypto providers that their safety may be threatened here. But I don't understand it because of some physical things. threat from China? Is that what you're implying? I don't understand what you're saying. It's just in general. Overall people are skeptical whether the Hong Kong policies will be reversed because of China's negative view towards crypto. Because we all know that if we're clearly in the industry, we all know that Hong Kong is pro crypto now. It's not that clear whether China is

pro-crypto. So the one country system, you know, not everyone knows clearly about one country system. If you're outside of Hong Kong, you're just worried, oh, actually Hong Kong's part of China. If China doesn't right crypto, something happens to Hong Kong, will get arrested. So that's basically... So not really uniquely related to stable coins, but just overall the crypto sentiment are in Hong Kong. Thank you for explaining that a lot better than I could. So sorry. I'm just realizing, like, I've always heard this expression, one country, two systems, but I suddenly realize I don't know what it means. Because if you have a country,

there should be laws, which generally will come from one place, right? I don't get what, yeah, I'm all of a sudden realizing I literally don't know what that means. And I know this is like off the topic of crypto, but if you could just briefly explain that so we can understand it in this context of what we're discussing, like, what does that mean? Largely, one country, two systems is basically China has promised in law and in documentation to the British government when British. and handed over Hong Kong in 1997, that Hong Kong would be run as a separate country, separate to how China runs it. It has its own constitution. It has its own laws and rules in Hong Kong. So one country, because it's part of China. What I thought it meant was Hong Kong is one country, but it has two governmental systems. Other way around China.

Hong Kong and China make up one country. Yes. But Hong Kong has its own. Own systems. Own laws. I literally thought it was the exact opposite. But anyway, okay, keep going. Hong Kong follows common law, right?

So basically, same as UK and some of the other countries. So, well, but obviously Beijing does have the directions in terms of how Hong Kong should work towards economic policies and all that. but we have an independent system to decide the details and all of the legislations and stuff. We have our own legislative council, we're not independent from China. Okay, okay. But I kind of feel like also my interpretation works that Hong Kong is its own place, but there's two governments that have influenced over it. No, Hong Kong has its own government and China has its own government.

Hong Kong's government reports into China. And largely we are... That's what I mean. We are segregated, but of course, with the Greater Bay area working together, there are areas where we work very closely with parts of China, for example. Okay. So I do want to get even more into this discussion around geopolitical issues with China. But before we do that, I just want to ask, so, you know, we've talked about the licensing of the exchanges. We're talking about how the stable coin regulations are going to come down. So are there any other areas of Hong Kong crypto regulation that you foresee? maybe happening in the future could be around, I don't know, like NFTs or trying to attract developers or, I don't know, tokens. Do you see anything else on the horizon?

I think even for stable coins, we were talking about that as well, you know, whether it's digital Hong Kong, I'm not talking about existing stable ground provider outside of Hong Kong, whether it's Tether or other stable one provider. But digital Hong Kong or offshore Roman B, to CNH, whether they will be in digital format, I think it's going to be something happening for sure. Digital Hong Kong is for sure, whether it's offshore CNH, not sure, and whether it's done by Hong Kong companies or Chinese companies. But we all know that once there's a stable coin in place,

and the government actually has been trying out over the past several years, whether it is with the Thailand, Hong Kong may equivalent on testing out the settlement with digital stable coin or stable coin, is to connect the Greater Bay Area, right? Because Hong Kong, Shenzhen, and Guangzhou, imagine at one world that stable coin being regulated and being endorsed by the government, our stocks could essentially be settled instantly by having digital Hong Kong directly buying a stock in Shenzhen. So that's something connect the whole region and creating another powerful economic zone.

But one way that I see it is, and it's also not. something that I think regulator will do, but something I hope regulator will do is after having the digital Hong Kong D in place and how it should be reculated, but then also to the enterprise stable coins. So meaning that if New World as a listed company, a pretty big property developer in Hong Kong can launch a digital New World stable coin, actually it will totally transform the equity market. And I see actually happening. I heard conversation around that already within the government, but not sure when that would be launched. Pro-Angeline, there will no better than I do.

Besides all the stable-coin stuff, I think derivative market is something going to be recollected pretty soon, and good and bad as well. It is much bigger than the spot market. So I think if it got reculated in a pretty clear way, same in the sport market now, huge opportunities to Hong Kong as well. So just building on what Adrian was saying, I think the first step that the HKMA has taken has been a great step in terms of they will be issuing consultation for a stable coin regulation. So that one step is one step further.

The e-Hong Kong dollar, the HKMA has announced a competition or a group of people have been selected to come up with use cases for the E-Hong Kong dollar and how it will be used in terms of Hong Kong. So there have been some very novel cases that are being worked on right now for final presentation to work with HKMA, as well as LISCOs and companies in Hong Kong to start launching use cases. So you can see that the government is really actually finding use cases for the E Hong Kong dollar and echoing what Adrian is saying, the cooperation between UAE, Thailand, And Hong Kong is really working together as they study how to come up with a e, a stable coin that works amongst all these different parties. So that's continuing. And then you asked about other products that are probably going to be launched. The SFC has already committed to issuing a paper at some point about tokenization, which is very clear rules.

And this has really been lacking, which is why tokenization has not taken off as fast as it should be taking off. So they've committed to saying that they will issue a consultation paper on tokenization to just need a bit of time. So that's one area that's going to be looked at. And when you say that, do you mean tokenization of real world assets? Yeah, tokenization of assets and or other products, which could be possibly moving into stock. who knows. But I can definitely say that real estate is very hot and an area that people are very, very interested in seeing some kind of consultation on. So I think that's going to be coming out. NFTs, the SFC has said that they are not going to regulate it at this time,

but their view may be changing because of the use cases of NFTs are also changing. The original art-based NFT wasn't really that interesting in terms of as a product, but as the use of NFTs grows, that could be another area where the SFC will issue additional guidance in terms of products. So I think all of this development is going to be interesting, but as Adrienne said, I think the most exciting will be how the Chinese, the E yuan, 22,000 companies worked on developing this whole system in China for the EU-E-U-W-W-A. So if 22,000 companies in China are working on that, you can imagine how important it is to China. And then for Hong Kong, the E-Hong-Kong-Kong dollar will be very important because, of course, our neighbors, China, and we're one-country-two systems. So I think that will grow in time, especially with trading and its trading partners with Hong Kong and China. The e-dollars will definitely be a important part of growth for all economies around the world.

So as we alluded to a few times throughout this episode, there's been reports that China is sanctioning this increased cryptoactivity in Hong Kong. Bloomberg reported, quote, representatives from China's liaison office and other officials have been frequent guests at the city's crypto gatherings in past months. The low-key support shows that officials are keen on using the laissez-faire city as a testing ground for digital assets as they keep a tight reign on any such activity on the mainland. So how are you interpreting this? Are you kind of prognosticating that this could mean the opening of crypto activity in China or where do you see this headed? Well, when I was in a trip with Invest Hong Kong to Japan, actually, I think in April,

one of the questions by the Japanese government is exactly when China is doing this, Hong Kong is doing that, is it completely different policies. And I think it was answered by certain government officials is exactly the proof of one country-to system in terms of what Hong Kong is encouraging web-free activities, but China is actually banning quite a lot of stuff. And I think both of you have read the news. People got arrested in China for doing something in crypto. As exactly, we're seeing tons of Chinese companies, not just in financial companies, actually. I think the government is also talking to Chinese gaming companies. If you want to set a crypto fund or crypto arms, just do it in Hong Kong.

is a very clear direction that Hong Kong now is the city for you. It's due every. And with that, exactly, if you translate that across the supply chain, I think most of the not just custodian exchanges, but also projects now are moving to Hong Kong. Cyberport has, I was talking to Saiport vetting committee. Saiport is kind of a, we're not sure what is a nonprofit, but they're basically the incubation center and those by the government, government owners as well, to encourage entrepreneurship.

they have received over 200 of companies from China just to enter incubation program. Historically, if you want to get incubation program, you are a startup that is probably need monies, but they receive a lot of proposals from Chinese companies, which are super rich. They just want to be in Hong Kong because they want to be in crypto. So I think that message is getting direct now towards even Chinese companies. And if you notice, Laura, this is not unusual. So if you look, Hong Kong was given the stock market, and it was the market that was, shall we say, developed for trading and for fundraising.

Whereas if you look at Macau, it's very much the gambling, and it was specifically given gambling for its revenue and for its businesses, and that's how it's developed. So again, in the case of Hong Kong, because I think, the Hong Kong government did push very hard to be able to have technology as well as digital assets, as well as Web3 moving forward as a technological advanceer for China. I think this is proof that the system is working, and that's how China makes sure that these test labs work before other things are allowed to move forward. So I think you're going to continue to see this type of test cases in terms of new areas being tested in different parts of the realm of China.

And so while all this is happening in Hong Kong, at the same time, China has really been moving forward with a ton of private government-initiated blockchains. And I wonder, yeah, like, you know, I don't know if you have much awareness of that, but do you see if they're getting uptake? Like, are they being used just in that way of, like, they were trying to push it on people? Or is it, like, actually kind of getting more organic usage as well? I think the blockchain, and remember I talked about the 22,000 companies for the I Yuan, those were part of the blockchain companies. And one of the companies that I worked with was owned by Wang Shang. So Hashke is owned by the Wan Chang Group, which originally was a car parts maker that moved. very quickly into the blockchain space, moving into development technology and Web3. So you're seeing that happen in China, and there is uptick as the blockchain technology evolves, not just in digital assets, but also in use cases for payments, in use cases for parts,

and tracking of parts, for example, tracking of livestock. It's amazing some of the things that the blockchain can do to keep track of livestock and car manufacturing. I've seen the most amazing prototypes of tracking devices that actually watch how livestock is growing, how fast it weighs them automatically, and monitors their systems, for example, their life systems. So you're seeing use cases that are moving from what was imagined into real areas. And this is where China is excelling because they've got so much sought power in the blockchain to push this forward. So it's moving into real life uses in terms of everywhere from watching livestock to growing plants and or crops, for example. I did see a report, though, that a former Chinese central banker said that two years in,

the digital yuan usage had been low. It was only $14 billion in two years. And he called these results not ideal. But do you sense, obviously, this is from December. So it's six months ago. Do you have a sense of whether that's changed at all? Or do you still think it's like fairly low? Well, I think the CBDC was in the beta state.

And to be fair, is launched, I think, much faster than a lot of different countries as well, considering the 1.4 or 1.2 billion people in China. So I feel like when we talk about blockchain application as well in China, CVDC obviously is a one huge use cases. But I heard a lot happening around two things. One is NFT equivalent. They call it digital collectible in China. So you can't use the word NFT in China.

We have to use digital collectibles. Well, the fundamental difference is probably NFT could be meaned on public blockchain, but digital collectibles have to be means on private blockchain endorsed by China or, you know, part of the China ecosystem. And the second thing is actually metafers. So, Manaverse is a huge problem in China. The difference between the usual metaverse and these metaphors in China is they are promoting digital properties.

And digital properties could be, you know, X-R, A-V-L, could be holograph. doesn't necessarily relate to crypto. But the idea of open world and metaverse actually has already reflected in the gaming world, reflected into a hosting concert in a metaphor setting, an open world digital format setting in China. So I think China is pushing, I would put it this way. I think they are pushing the thesis behind Web 3, not necessarily with a public blockchain, but they believe that some of the services should be accessible easily at a cheaper cost. but could be on a private blockchain. Well, ironically, even as a VCI, I don't necessarily think it's wrong.

Because when you have a mass of 1.2 billion people, it's different from launching a private blockchain among 8 million people. So I think China is pushing that front and using Hong Kong as a city to test a really very front. At some point, whether it will integrate, not sure, but I think that's the way, pretty clear direction, why they're doing this as well. So it sounds like it's going to be the way the internet is today where there's like China's Internet and then the rest of the Internet. And so in the future it'll probably be like China's blockchains

and then we have our public blockchains. Is that where you think it's headed? The key question is whether the public blockchain and China blockchain will integrate at some point or composed of it at some point. I think that's the key question. Whether it reflects down to the application layer, infrastructure as in the Shenzhen stock exchange, at some point could be composable with

an ideal world uniswap. I don't think it is not impossible. But do you think China would want to give its citizens access to other kinds of money? I mean, the reason that they have the current Internet is they don't want people to have, you know, the information that the rest of us have. And I don't think they would want to give people, the freedom with their money. Well, Angelina, I have a different view. My personal opinion is, I think it's not about the flow of information anymore. It's really about controlling the outflow, outflow.

That's exactly. And Adrian's spot on. That's why I'm saying, do you think they'll want to just have it all integrated with other blockchains because then people can, yeah, easily send their money out of the Chinese system? As long as if KYCA mail is imposed on both sides. So, you know, at some point, well, I think it is inevitable that Unitsblob or other decks at some point will have to impose digital ID that's going for a DeFi world. And at some point, China has launched GDPD successfully across the whole country.

It would be composable because you know where's the capital is flowing, growing around the blockchain. And obviously, in the open world, we know where does money is going and tech with the digital ID. So as long as the money flow is clear, I don't think China will have a complete 100% ban, but that's just my own view. And probably low in the future as well. Yeah, and I would probably push back on what you said about the information because, obviously with the pandemic, they were suppressing all kinds of information and even trying to censor non-Chinese people about that. So that was interesting to watch. But anyway. But China has actually put in what is the common reporting system. So they've already put in,

a number of controls in place in terms of making sure that information is tracked. And then if you look at some of the things that are going on in terms of how things do work, there's a very good test case, which is the Stock Connect. And Hong Kong exchanges and clearing works with China's exchanges. and you can buy, if you're a Hong Kong person, you can buy directly stock from Shanghai and other exchanges directly. So that's an example where China has connected and using Charles Lee's description, where Hong Kong EX is connecting China to the world and the world to China because you can trade directly.

So China is already moving into this space in terms of testing in possibilities for a closed circuit, but you can invest into China directly, as well as Chinese investors can directly invest into Hong Kong. And I think in time, as China gets more comfortable, they're probably going to enlarge that stock connect to other markets. And certainly, I think, because HKEX owns London metals exchange and had aspirations to move into the London Stock Exchange at some point before, there will be opportunities for China to connect more outwards also. But they're already doing it in terms of owning international companies, but it's just been limited in terms of how open, that common person in Beijing can,

access the foreign markets. So I think it's going to be a little bit slow, but the world is opening. And Hong Kong truly is a conduit for China and opening it up to the world. So that's just my view. So let's zoom out. Here we've been talking about Hong Kong, then we added China. But meanwhile, just generally in crypto, there's a lot of change happening right now in terms of jurisdictions, either becoming more welcoming to crypto or less. You know, here in the U.S., I think that's what we're seeing, where even an extremely compliant company like Coinbase is getting sued by the SEC, which is sort of interesting to watch.

But I was curious for your thoughts on, you know, where you see things going kind of globally, Dubai, Europe, Singapore, they've all sort of been, you know, adding regulations that add clarity for crypto companies. So kind of, you know, where do you see companies going? How do you see Hong Kong within that larger global field? And then, of course, because the big elephant in the room is the U.S. And right now it is taking a very unfriendly stance. I was just wondering what your thoughts were on how this would affect crypto globally. Okay. I'll just talk about the regulations. And maybe Adrian could talk about what he knows the crypto bros too, better than I might. And women. They're women, too. Yes.

Crypto girls too. Yes. What's been happening is as, well, it was a prediction that I made that within five to 10 years from, within five years from 2018, that almost all the regulators around the world would start doing some kind of regulation. And sure enough, you're seeing that exact thing happened. So in particular, Dubai has moved forward with an innovative regulator called VARA, virtual assets regulatory authority. And we met with them when we went to, I went with a group recently to Dubai, Abu Dhabi and Riyadh. So Abu Dhabi and Dubai in particular have regimes and have licensed digital asset firms, finance, being one of the main ones at the Abu Dhabi Financial Center.

And Dubai already has issued in-principle approvals for licensees. And a lot of people find moving to Dubai interesting, and it has been attracting financial players. So the Middle East is an area that has become very interesting because, of course, the Emirati money, as well as the investments that Riyadh, Dubai, and Abu Dhabi are making to attract investors have really brought in a lot of people relocating there. Then you've got Europe, which has put in Mika. And Mika, there's still a lot to be studied. And in fact, Iosco will be meeting next week in Thailand.

So I'm sure the digital asset agenda will be discussed amongst all the global regulators. But you're seeing Europe now has a regime that's starting to come together, but it's too early to tell how that will attract or not attract people. Asia still seems to be the hot area. Then you're looking at the U.S. I understand our Republican government has actually issued some sort of draft legislation and has put it out there in the United States for regulation of digital assets. But there hasn't been much coverage, but it was mentioned in the news that a draft has been

published. You're looking at South America. Some countries have actually started issuing legislation, but it's very sparse. So you've got El Salvador, for example, that does embrace Bitcoin. Africa, the last frontier, is also looking at putting in regulations. There are firms that are pushing the frontier there to get regulated and start operations in the African countries. But no regulator has really taken a firm push except for possibly Nigeria and, Uganda. So there is definite interest in Africa as the next frontier of growth. So that's sort of a whistle stop of some of the countries that are looking at it. But I think aside from Asia, I think

the Middle East is probably the second most interesting place to be. I don't know if you agree with that, Adrian. Well, I have a, from a firm perspective, we're looking to moving headquarters, obviously same as a lot of different companies over the past two years, and we decided to base in Hong Kong. And I think it is several key factors, but the key thing is globally, they're just free cities with a huge enough financial market to support global activities.

It's New York, London, and Hong Kong, just free of them. And London, been doing quite a lot, the FCA has been doing quite a lot of sandbox and all that. you don't see a lot happening, actually. New York, obviously, with all these things happening now, is going nowhere relatively to Hong Kong. So it is, I think the view that we have formulated as a company is, if you want to grow truly into a web free hub,

maybe licensing and the capital formation is quite important at the beginning, and it comes down to whether you could attract not just funding, but also developers and, you know, builders into the city. So Hong Kong has been quite weak, to be honest, in terms of developers and builders, but we have set the stone in terms of capital fundraising, and so it should be easier to attract tenants in. But I agree with Angelina, when I look at different jurisdictions, because I personally, I got a license approval, I think back in 2019 in Abu Dhabi. So when my previous startup liquid, we got a principal approval. And for being OTC player, I think, back in 2019,

custodizing asset and you could uplift the license for trading. So it's a quite early stage for ADGM to do that. My first time experience with MitoI is you have much less added to political concerns when it comes to crypto. Obviously, Hong Kong, the reason we discuss a lot about China and Hong Kong is because there are multiple factors influencing people perceptions on Hong Kong. But Mitois usually is pure business. So you don't really hear about whether

Middowis is particularly related to China or Hong Kong when it comes to China and US when it comes to crypto you just hear about where you should raise. Whether it's Dubai, Abu Dhabi, any kind of middle of part of the UAE. So my view is, I think most of the builders or decentralized finance projects, they likely will move towards the midwives.

And for now, the centralized companies, exchanges, brokers, investment banks, which specialize in crypto, likely it will be in Hong Kong. And I am very pessimistic to a Singapore. Because from a primary perspective, myself,

I deal with several communities, whether it's token 2049 as a conference, has thought about Hong Kong as a place instead of Singapore, just because they signed a contract with Singapore. That's sort of why they have to be there just this year. Some of the, even for NFT, 8Fest for Broad 8, actually thinking between Singapore and Hong Kong.

So there's not going to be two cities as a referee hub in Asia. It's going to just one. So if it's just one, Hong Kong is a 10 times bigger financial hub than Singapore. People always forgot about Singapore is just a tiny country. So think about, if I think about that for a future three or five years, you need as a firm, you need a presence in Hong Kong, midway, whether you have to be in Europe.

I think I agree with Angelina. Mika is quite early developed. very positive. But Europe to me fundamentally is quite passive in tourists pushing crypto, not from a regular point of view, but commercial point of view. U.S., to be honest, I don't know. I don't advise portfolios to now put much resources there for now. Yeah, yeah. I think just one note is, at least from researching my first book, The Cryptopians, there's a lot of developers in Europe, so that would be like the one bonus Yeah, for that. All right, you guys, this has been such a fascinating discussion. Where can people learn more about each of you and your work?

I'm on LinkedIn, and I'm going to launch a website soon, I hope, and about some of more of my work. But happy to take part in any of your conferences and be accessible if people have questions. We, I, Adrienne and I would probably say you also love Hong Kong and I love Hong Kong. and this has been my home, and I really hope it will succeed as a crypto financial center, not only being a massive international financial center. So I'm committed to it. And hope you'll come out here and visit us. Yeah, I would like to put that on my list as well. Adrian, how about you? Well, LinkedIn, Twitter, I'm quite active in Twitter,

but even though I talk a lot about different stuff as well on Twitter, and my firm will be co-hosting Ethereum Hong Kong in October. We announced already as on 13 June. And so I would love to invite both of you to talk about to you. Because the main reason for me is to do it as a firm is because we want to do something developer-driven. So not necessarily just a financial market or licensed product driven, but more attracting builders and developers.

I think most of the people remember Hong Kong as an international financial center, but didn't remember Hong Kong actually grow as an anthropor. Enterport is not necessarily related to finance, but the way to connect the East and West is actually Hong Kong's natural advantage physically, geographically, we are at a very good position to be the place. And being an anthropot, meaning we also have to attract talents,

capital and everything back to the city. And as a boy, born and raised in Hong Kong, I am very passionate to make that happen alongside Angelina and everyone in Hong Kong. Perfect. Well, it's been a pleasure having you both on Unchained. Thank you, Lord. Thanks for meditation. Yes. Thanks so much for joining us today to learn more about Angelina, Adrian, and how Hong Kong has been embracing crypto. Check out the show us for this episode. Unchained is produced by me, Laura Shin.

Withal from Kevin Fuchs, Matt Pilcherd, Zach Seward, Wynaranovich, Sam Shrevebram, Jenny Hogan, Jeff Benson, Leon Jarmino, Pamajumdar, Shashonk, and Margaret Correa. Thanks for listening.