Unchained - How Aragon Hopes to Improve on Democracy - Ep.135

Episode Date: September 3, 2019

Luis Cuende, the CEO of Aragon One, describes the Aragon Network, how it aims to create new systems better for human coordination and the roles of the various parts of the ecosystem, such as Aragon One, the Aragon Association, the Aragon Court, Aragon Nest and the Aragon Network token. He describes the various parts of the Aragon Network, such as a finance app and voting app, how the network can be used both by decentralized organizations as well as centralized companies, and how he thinks decentralized autonomous organizations (DAOs) interact with real-world legal jurisdictions. We discuss how disputes are handled in Aragon, what the token, ANT, is used for, and why Aragon is contemplating building its own blockchain instead of sitting atop Ethereum, as it currently does. We also talk about how Aragon is governed, how it hopes to someday decentralize its governance and other ways Aragon can reach Cuende's ideal governance. Plus, we cover a few controversial votes in Aragon and the role of whales in such systems.  Thank you to our sponsors! Simbachain: https://simbachain.com/ Kraken: https://www.kraken.com/ CipherTrace: http://ciphertrace.com/unchained Episode links: Aragon Network: https://aragon.org/network/ Luis Cuende: https://twitter.com/licuende?lang=en Aragon white paper: https://github.com/aragon/whitepaper Breaker Mag article about Aragon: https://breakermag.com/can-aragon-make-decentralized-autonomous-governance-work/ Vitalik Buterin's proposals on DAICOs: https://ethresear.ch/t/explanation-of-daicos/465 Aragon Governance Proposals (AGP): https://github.com/aragon/AGPs/blob/master/AGPs/AGP-1.md Vote against funding Polkadot: https://www.coindesk.com/voters-on-ethereum-app-veto-proposal-to-fund-polkadot-blockchain Unchained episode about Polkadot: https://unchainedpodcast.com/paritys-jutta-steiner-and-gavin-wood-on-polkadot-substrate-and-the-frozen-funds/ Unchained episode about Ethereum 2.0: https://unchainedpodcast.com/vitalik-buterin-on-whether-or-not-ethereum-is-blowing-it/ Unchained episode with Ameen Soleimani of MolochDAO: https://unchainedpodcast.com/molochdao-could-this-decentralized-autonomous-organization-help-ethereum-scale-faster/ Stats on Aragon: https://scout.cool/aragon/mainnet Unchained episode about Melon protocol: https://unchainedpodcast.com/how-melon-could-make-asset-management-easier/ Autark, the decentralized SpaceX: https://www.autark.xyz Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Hi everyone. Welcome to Unchained, your no-hype resource for all things crypto. I'm your host, Laura Shin. In case you haven't heard, I have another crypto podcast called Unconfirmed. It's shorter, newsier, and comes out Fridays. If you haven't yet, go subscribe now wherever you get your podcasts. Also, find out what I think are the top stories in crypto by sending it from my weekly newsletter at Unchained Podcast.com. Cipher trace cutting-edge cryptocurrency intelligence powers anti-money laundering, blockchain analytics, and threat Intel. Leading exchanges, virtual currency businesses, banks, and regulators themselves use ciphertrace to comply with regulation and to monitor compliance. Are you passionate about blockchain but fall short on the technical skills to build and deploy blockchain applications? Then check out Cimba Chain, the smart contract as a service blockchain simplification layer on

CimbaChane.com and their new enterprise offering on the Microsoft Azure Marketplace. Crackin is the best exchange in the world for buying. and selling digital assets. It has the tightest security, deep liquidity, and a great fee structure with no minimum or hidden fees. Whether you're looking for a simple Fiat on-ramp or futures trading, Cracken is the place for you. My guest today from Berlin is Luis Quende, the CEO at Aragon 1. Welcome, Luis. Yeah, thanks for having me. What problem are you trying to solve with Aragon? The thing that we are trying to solve with Aragon is that human governance is very broken, both at the micro level, like, the way we interact with each other and the way we organize. It's very hard for someone in the world that is in Argentina to organize with someone from Iran, for example, because of multiple revolutions that make it almost impossible.

But also the macro level, like governance is broken, and democracy is, I would say, in the last stages of growth. and we need to come out with new systems that are better for human coordination, as we have seen in also in the West with Donald Trump winning the U.S. elections and stuff like that. Yeah, well, actually, so what makes you say that democracy is in the last stages of growth? Well, I think if you look at like technological revolutions, they have this period sometime in which they have like early adopters and then they grow and then they have like this kind of productivity plateau in which they just kind of stabilize over time. and that means that we have taken the most out of them, and now there is time for a new thing to come up.

And I think we have taken out the most of democracy already, at least in the West. And now new models have to come that are better for human coordination. And maybe even they come in new forms. Maybe they come in the form of smaller communities that coordinate between them instead of having like this huge monoliths that we consider nation states today. There are like hundreds of millions of people.

So I think it's time to experiment with new models. And so what does ideal governance look like? to you? Well, I think that's a very hard question because that depends so much on the actual governance model that we're looking at in the problem the way to try to solve. I think in terms of nation states, it's very, very hard to empathize with millions of people. And I think that's the number one problem in society today. We cannot empathize with another citizen because there are like a hundred million citizens in a country and they are so different from one another. And so I think if we can start dividing that into smaller units that obey Dunbar's number,

which is the number of people your brain can empathize with, I think we may have better, you know, communities rather than having this monolith nation states in which everyone starts fighting each other. But what is Dunbar's number? Isn't that a really low number? Like 150 or something? 150, yeah. So the world should be governed in little communities of 150 people?

That's something that I really wanted to experiment. with. I would love to try that out, try if, you know, having the smaller communities also improves meaning in life because I think we have a crisis of meaning right now. So like my generation, for example, like there are literally like social apps in like Finland and in the north of Europe to like connect like 10 years because they feel isolated. And that's so crazy to me today with like Instagram and Facebook and all of these things. We feel more and more alone than, you know, another time in life. And your generation meaning like how old are you? I'm 23. now. And actually, why don't you tell a little bit about your story? How did you get into the

blockchain space? For sure. So I went into software when I was 12 years old because of Linux and free software. And it was kind of mind-blowing to me because I come from a humble family and the fact that you could basically get a computer and just start creating stuff. And there was no limit. There was no need to like go to a store and buy anything at all. It was all for free and open. That was mind-blowing for me. Also that kind of post-capitalistic. sort of idea that people were working for free on the internet and they were creating free software for other people to use it without any expectation of profit.

I didn't understand the reasoning behind it and I'm not sure I understand it yet, but it was so mind-blowing for me. And then I saw Bitcoin in 2009 when the white paper came out. And yeah, and I thought it was a scam. I thought like this is technically impossible. I didn't really even free the white paper. and then in 2011 I read the white paper and I was man blown.

It was around the financial crisis that hit Spain very bad when I'm from and also hit my family very bad. And when I read the whole white paper at the end, I was like, oh my God, this is going to change the power dynamics of the world so much. And I really want to be involved. Wow. Okay. All right. And then I guess why don't you briefly, Phyllis and how you came from that point to launching Aragon? Yeah. So in 2013 or 14, I really got involved more and more into the Bitcoin. space. I was doing some small projects here and there, but then I wanted to do a Bitcoin exchange

with a couple partners I had back in the day and that didn't work out because of like we couldn't basically raise money for it. And then in 2014, we came up with Stampery, which is blockchain time stamping, basically. I think it's one of the main platforms that are doing that now, although it

took a long time for it to gain any sort of traction. So we launched that startup to a lot people to like timestamp. We had the dream of like eliminating notary publics using the blockchain, which was a pretty obvious use case, right? But then these things take a lot of time. And then in 2016, I went out of the blockchain space for like a few months to pursue something with my now co-founder, Jorge, which we met when we were like 16 and, yeah. What's his last name? Jorge Zclerdo.

Yeah, we met when we were like 15 or 16 in Spain via Twitter. And we were both like young hackers and then we started working on multiple things and then in 2016 I asked him to to join a crazy idea I had related to patents and basically eliminating the patent system and then at some point we moved to the US with the whole like Silicon Valley thing and at some point we realized that the underlying issue wasn't really the patent system in the US for example it was politicians and the power dynamics that just don't want to change it you just want to keep the patent trolling and these big companies to own these patents so that they can have huge monopolies.

And so at some point, we figured out the underlying issue was governance of the country and of the law system and not patent like themselves. So we came out with Oregon. Yeah. Well, also, I don't know. Do you remember that I interviewed you once about Stamphrey? Seriously? I did.

Wow. Yeah. But the very first question I asked you was how you prevent lies or falsehoods from getting on the blockchain. Yeah. And I'm just going to tell you straight. didn't have a good answer for it. So I was like, hmm.

I still don't, I think. What? I still don't have a good answer for that I think. Right. And you were saying you wanted to just be a notary system. So I was like, okay, this is like so far from being that. But anyway, all right. So before we get into Ergon, why don't we just like define a few things because there's

the Ergonne network, there's Ergonne Association, there's Ergon 1. So why don't you just like high level overview describe the, you know, the whole setup? Exactly. Yeah. So Argon itself is the project in the movement. that has the mission to create decentralized organizations for the world and to basically allow the people to experiment with governance at the speed of software. And so for that, we have the Aragon Network,

we have the organization and a few other entities. And so we have this multi-team model in which instead of having one team that grows to like 1,000 people, we want to decentralize also development. And so we have this model in which the holders of a token that is the Argon Network token can vote proposals to basically govern the whole project. And so one of the proposals for one of the ways that they can do that is to choose the development teams that are going to carry development. And so Oregon 1 is a team elite, and that's the foundational team working on Argon's development,

but there is also Argonne Black, Otarq, and there are many other smaller Argon teams that are working on the ecosystem. Then there is the Argonne network, and the Argonne network is like the broad sort of Dow that governs the project itself. and it also wants to provide services to other DAOs. So for example, one of them is the Aragon court. We want to create a dispute or solution system for DAOs. So they can use dry code, which is like, you know, smart contracts,

but they can also use wet code, which is basically like, you know, human written agreements that we're very used to in the, like in the traditional world, let's say. So we can combine the best of both worlds. So that's a little bit of an overview. Then we have also like a grants program called Argon Nest, and that has been given at grants for multiple things. We were the first ones to give grants for Ethereum 2.0 development. But that's really a bit of the final overview of the ecosystem.

Okay, yeah. And early on when you talked about Aragon 1, for listeners who know kind of how Ethereum development happened, there was a period early on where there was the Ethereum Foundation, and then ETH Dev was the company that was formed to do the development for the network. All right. And why don't we just start with what it is and what people can do if they want to use this system? Yeah, so right now we have the Argon client, which is this app that allows you to create decentralized organizations.

And so you can do multiple things. You can, for example, create like a membership kind of organization in which you can literally use list members and manage funds, for example. That's a very easy use case that people are doing in the Ethereum community with other kind of DAO's, like Molo comes to mind and stuff like. that, right, in which you have a group of friends, and then they put funds in, and then they manage funds. That's like a very easy use case. But then you also have the use cases that are, I think, a little more ambitious, that are more like open doubts in which anyone can join.

Well, wait, actually, but to go back to the membership one, is that like a centralized type of entity using the Aragon network, or? Well, no, it'll be like a decentralized kind of entity that you create on Aragon, and then it's like a, basically like a permission entity in the sense that, like, people have to vote for new members to come in. but that would be something that would live on the Ethereum blockchain would be fully decentralized. Oh, I see.

Yeah. And then there is like use cases that are more in terms of like, you know, open DAWS. And so one of them that we are super excited about is fundraising. So there was this model proposed by Vitalik called Daikos. And this model proposed by Luke from our team also called APRI. And so what we're doing here is we're basically creating a DAO that fundraises money. And then the token holders can decide to set what's, called the tap rate. And so that's the amount of money that flows to like development teams to

implement this idea for this project. And so the cool thing there is that basically you are like inverting the power structure. So token holders are the ones that control the project and the in the money flows and not the other way around. So basically I think with that you can you can have fundraisers that are like 2017 scale like you know very big fundraisers but with a accountability and transparency that we didn't see in 2017. So that's one model that I'm super super excited about. And did that pass? Well, that's going to be launching like a couple of weeks from now. Oh, okay.

Yeah, because he's blogged about that for quite a while, I think. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay. I mean, in the doubt space, there's always like, it takes some time to actually implement things because everyone is so afraid of, like, consequences, right? So, like, when the doubt happened and the fork happened and all of that, it took years until, like, someone literally said, like, you know,

we're going to implement douse again. Because there's, like, those things. that people are really fearful about. And I think, like, fundraising is the thing that people are, like, very fearful about as well, right? Because we have a lot of, like, legal implications and the SEC and all of these things, right? And so, but that should then impede us for innovating. That's what we're here, right? I'm personally not here to see that, like, there are SEC compliant, I see what's happening.

Like, I don't really care about that. Oh, really? Yeah, I mean, I didn't get into the space to, like, you know, basically the facility of the life for the nation estate. I go into the state so we can replace the national state. Okay. Well, so to tie all that together, I did want to ask you about, you know, this fact that you're trying to build a Dow because, you know, given the history with the Dow, that might seem kind of bold to some people because that was a huge failure. So why did you decide to build a Dow in a platform for Dao's? Well, when we looked at the Dow, it was interesting because, you know, you look at it and the idea itself was really great.

then the problem was implementation, right? But it's one of these cases where it was very unfortunate that it was called the Dow, because then the whole Dow concept just got basically screwed over for years. But if you look at it, like the concept itself is a brilliant concept. The problem was implementation.

And so if you're rational, you think, you know, let's just make an implementation that works, right? And we invested a lot of money and time to make ensure that this gets outdated. And I think we've been in life for like a year and some months with no bags found or critical ones at least.

So I'm super, super happy about that. All right. So why don't we, we'll just talk about the platform. So you kind of actually walked through us a little bit. So if I have a simple Dow, like a membership thing, I can do that. So then actually talk about some of the other features that people can implement. Yeah. So there is a system with like multiple apps that you can install and install.

You can think about it like Lego Bricks. like basically you can build very basic, very complex structures, just like putting together these bricks that are very generic. And so by default, there is a finance app which allows you to manage finances, and then you can send the URL to anyone for them to check the finances in a transparent way. There's a boarding app that allows you to vote on stuff.

There's token manager app that allows you to manage token balances, mint tokens for new people, slash them as well. So you can do all of those things. And then there are more apps that are kind of, not by default, but they are super important as well. So, for example, there is these suite of apps for Aragon called Open Enterprise that allows people to manage more like open organizations. And so, for example, you can have something like Gitcoin where you fund bounties

and people can come and claim those bounties and directly on Aragon on the Aragon Dow. You can have like a dot-boding app, which is like another kind of mechanism for boarding. You can have like an allocations app that allows you to have like multiple kind of bank accounts inside of now that are controlling different ways and with different permissions of like hook and withdraw money. So you can do all of these things that are very composable. I think right now we're starting to see that hub will actually use it for something

because when you create a platform like at the end, Argonne's like a platform for these apps to be built and then with this apps you create new organizational structures. But I think the interesting point is when you start having a critical mass in which you can like these components in different ways to create new models. and that's where like composability gets seen and I think that's something that worked out very well for Ethereum and now we're starting to see that for Aragon although it takes a little bit to like you know from building a platform to like see how you can use it and compose the things

and so just to clarify something because when I was browsing the materials about Aragon for some reason I got under the conception that companies could use it and obviously companies are centralized so is that true or not true Well, you can definitely implement a centralized hierarchical company on Aragon. Like, for example, Oregon 1, we use Aragon, but we are like a Swiss company. And we use it for finances. We use it for, yeah, basically managing finances and boarding. So you can definitely do that. I think the issue there is the legal part of it.

So, for example, in our case, we implemented this functionality in the finance app so you can export a CSV. because our accountants really wanted to. And I think if you want to do simple stuff like that, you may use Aragon. But if you want to do something more complex, you may want to use some kind of like legal wrapper. So there is this project called Open Law, and they build this very, very cool integration

with Aragon and Wyoming LLCs. So they have this online wizard in which you can create an LLC, and it aromaniac that creates an Aragon DAO, and it links both. So you have legal agreements that literally say, like, you know, membership is going to be defined, and shares are going to be defined by this token app on Oregon. So when you create a new token on Oregon,

it automatically basically is a legally valid way of saying, you know, that's a new share on the Wyoming LLC. So that's a very, very cool use case as well. How did that come about? It was a few months ago, a community member called Ross from Open Law, and he just made it happen. I think they're looking to expand on like New York LLC as well. Oh, wow.

Yeah, it's very cool. Okay, yeah, I know Caitlin Long was like really instrumental and getting a lot of blockchain friendly laws passed in Wyoming. So I wondered if she was part of that. But actually, something else I wanted to ask about was earlier when you were talking about how they're composable and you can make different kinds of organizations. So how are people using them and are you seeing any innovative uses that you hadn't really thought of before? Well, it was funny.

So like way before we came up with Aragon fundraising and implementing this fundraising mechanism on Aragon, we saw a DAO that was basically, they were a very small smart contract that would basically use the finance app on Oregon and the tokens app on Oregon so that if there was a new deposit to the finance app, they would mint a new token for that member. So it was effectively fundraising

before we implemented fundraising. And that was really funny to see. It's actually a very cool project. They are, and one of my, I think, favorite use case is most of the developers are based in Iran. So, of course, like, you know, if you're based there, you're automatically discriminated in the whole world, right? So, like, I think Argonne was one of the only ways that they could have, you know,

fan-raised to build their software and their project. Wow. And so this is actually a perfect segue to my next question because I was wondering. So obviously we've got like the normal traditional legal jurisdictions all around the world. So how did those laws fit with or not fit with these? entities that you're creating on Aragon. Well, it's the intersection between dry code and wet code, which is what like Nick Stavre used to do all these things.

And just clarified that for people. So what code is like human courts of law and then dry code is like code? Exactly. Computer code. Yeah. Smart contracts. And that's super interesting because, for example, when I think about, you know, declaring taxes, right?

So you want to declare your taxes, you see your crypto portfolio. But then, like, how do you declare a CDP? How do you declare an NFT? How do you declare an asset that maybe even, like, illiquid in the market? Like, it's just kind of so hard because the system of, so, like, you know, smart contracts are touring complete. And the way that the law works is that they try to cover every edge case with, like, you know, regulation. The issue is that you cannot cover a touring complete set of options with regulation because that's, like, infinite. Like, every line of code may be, like, totally different.

and do like a totally different things. So like it seems intrinsically impossible to make this two systems work. That's my sort of like idea that I have built over the course of the past years. I think you can implement something like these legal wrappers. So like you open a Wyoming LLC and then you have like shares on your Aragon corporation

and then like the finances. But if you want to install a new app on Aragon that is totally different, for example, this fundraising app or use like a bonding core for one of these like more billion-neous technologies, how do you translate that? to the legal system is like totally I think out of the out of the reach of the legal system. So I think if we want to exploit the like 100% of the potential decentralized organizations,

we have to forget about the old and we just have to build the new. Well, so then if someone's creating a DAO on Aragon and the different people that are using it are in different jurisdictions, then does that create problems for, you know, one or the other of them? That is a great question. Well, I think you can, the way you can look at it and we've been, looking at some of these jurisdictions. Some of them may treat the DAO as a general partnership.

Some maybe don't. And the issue there, I mean, one of the issues with, like, how legality works is the is that it's not built for the Internet. It's not built for a world where you can join a DAO and just be part of it, right? So, and there are a lot of interesting questions that arise. So, for example, if you're a passive, a stakeholder of a DAO, let's say you are a token holder of, you know, maker DAO, and MakerDAO does something that is illegal in one jurisdiction,

which, I mean, it's not that hard. There are jurisdictions in which, like, many things are illegal. For example, think about jurisdictions like Thailand or even Spain where, like, you just cannot insult the monarchy, right? So imagine that there is the Aragon network DAO, which has the ability to do proclamations. So, like, to say, as a Tao, I proclam it something in behalf of my members. And this Tao insults the monarchy in one of these places.

are you liable now for that it's a very hard question and i think i mean i don't have the answer i just think we should be brave and try to experiment with it yeah actually on a related note and this might seem unrelated but i think it is similar i literally just yesterday read this article where um there was some astronaut who basically did something in space and um and And I guess she was going through a divorce, and she accessed the bank account of her wife, who she was separating from. And the wife was claiming that it was like a criminal act. And she was claiming that they had these shared financial accounts to, you know, manage the finances for their son. And anyway, so, but the article was saying, like, there are no laws around, like, you know, if she's in spaces,

the time then like you know what how do you manage that so um i agree that obviously now you know with blockchains also there's like this whole new territory that opens up and it's not clear how these things will be managed um but actually yet another perfect segue segue because i was going to ask you about disputes as well and you have this whole dispute system managed by the ergon court so what is that and you know when do people use that function and how does it work yeah for sure so i think one of the most exciting parts of a decentralized organization is that you may be able to just completely create new jurisdictions on the internet. But the problem with the smart contract is that they are very limited. So you can encode a very small part of the world because

of the mid space, because there are a lot of human subtleties. So you may be able to describe a lot of things with computer code, but you cannot, for example, say, you know, Ethereum should know about my tablet or about my computer and when I leave a company it should know that I need to like return that right to my employer and so the idea with the R on court is that you can also add this human written language or human written code or basically like a contract to a smart contract so in that way you have the best of both worlds and the problem there when we thought about it was like right this is amazing for this bill or solution this amazing for basically creating or adding capabilities to decentralized organizations that they didn't have before, but the issues that courts

are hard to run. And, I mean, it's not that easy to, like, create literally like a court. You have to create a system of law around it, right? And so when we thought about it, we saw that courts are traditionally very expensive. They are very slow. Like, we have cases, or I have seen cases where there are claims against, like, you know, huge corporations. and the case is very clear, but these corporations have so much money that they are able to extend it for years or decades and then settle.

And that's it, right? And so I believe if we can incentivize fairness by creating a global jurisdiction, which basically has a court. I think the court is a core component. This is the one that makes sure that you incentivize fairness or you incentivize people to follow the system of law. We can empower those much more. And so the idea here is with the court is basically you can create a decision. dispute, you can access this pool of euros that are incentivized to actually behave because of cryptoconomic incentives. And then the cool thing is that over time, you're going to build

jurisprudence that is global. It's not like linked to any local jurisdiction. So you may be able to study this one system of law and then basically use it anywhere in the world as a global way. And who are the jurors? Like, how are they chosen? Are they just people who hold the Aragon network token? Yes, jurors need to stake A&T in order to, because, because, participants of this network. And so jurors like anyone can be a euro basically, which I think it's very cool. And then they are chosen randomly.

So for example, in the first round, when you open a dispute, you may be assigned five euros randomly. And then you can, if you don't agree with the result, you can basically, you know, raise it to like the next level. And then maybe like 21 and then more until you raise a dispute to like the whole network and all the euros can participate. And so that makes it very, very, very hard for anyone to try to game the system, because at the end, you're just going to make it

very, very expensive to, basically make it so expensive that they would have to buy the entire network or, like, 51% of the whole, like, Arragon network for them to, like, win a case. And, I mean, you keep talking about how, you know, the normal legal system is expensive. So how do you guys pay for your court? Yeah, so there's, like, a flat subscription fee that organizations pay, and then there's, like, a dispute fee. And so... Wait, and do they pay the fee only when they have a dispute going or, like, forever?

Well, we're thinking about it still. I think that there's going to be like a very small kind of flat fee, like yearly flat fee kind of thing. And then just like per dispute. Because I think it makes sense to have it per dispute. So you only pay when you really use it, right? But on the other hand, you also need to like keep the euros being paid in some way. Because what you want to, like, these systems, the thing that you want them to use for is

you want to have them there. so you need that you can use them, but hopefully you incentivize everyone to not use them, right? And so you need to like even pay euros for doing nothing because they are just there so you don't need to use them. I mean, you need to use them, right, at some point in time. But our idea that you don't, right, is just like everyone sees that they are going to lose money by opening a dispute and so no one does. That's like the sort of like incentive structure. That makes sense. All right.

So in a moment we're going to discuss more about governance in the Aragon network. But first a quick word from the sponsors who make this show possible. Today's episode is brought to you by Cracken. Cracken is the best exchange in the world for buying and selling digital assets. With all the recent exchange hacks and other troubles, you want to trade on an exchange you can trust. Cracken's focus on security is utterly amazing. Their liquidity is deep and their fee structure is great,

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www.com.com slash keep crypto clean. Back to my conversation with Luis of Aragon. So the court system also has appeals. How do appeals work? yeah so appeals is a system where you don't agree with the result of the of the case and you basically raise to like the next round and so it just basically grows the amount of euros that are involved until it's the whole network and but i think like one side is one side appeals and then the and then you have to put up a stake for that or something and then the other side doesn't then the side that puts up the money

automatically wins right yeah i have to like basically stake more and more over time the cool thing about this though is that because i mean i'm very worried about this world where people who don't have resources cannot appeal, and so they basically lose the case, right? The whole thing about programmatically creating these cases is that you can fundraise for them. And so let's see there's a very clear case, like David versus Goliath kind of case, right?

So what David can do to win the case against Goliath is like he can say, all right, I'm going to create this DAO and this guy is going to fundraise for all the proceeds for my case, and then I'm going to basically split the profits with all the participants that invest in this fundraiser. And so the evidence is public, anyone can just see it. And then if people believe on it, they are like not only incentivized to make it fair, but also incentivized from an economic point of view to invest in this case.

So David ends up winning the case and then the split proceeds. Very interesting. So let's also now talk about the token, because Aragon actually was first built without a token. So let's talk about what the ANT token does within the system and how you justify its existence if the Ergon network actually existed before without the token. Yeah. Well, so the history was like the following. Basically, we created Aragon and then at some point we were thinking,

if decentralized organizations are mainstream, what comes next? Like, what are the services that we'll need? And so we identified this very important service that was the court. And I think that's actually very, like, very useful. suit for DAO's for one simple reason, and it's 51% attacks. Like, we are seeing that with open DAO's, there is this very, very easy attack that is basically, you know, you can say, I want to propose to withdraw all the money from this DAO to this new DAO that is made out of just 51% of the participants of this original DAO, right?

And then all these participants are incentivized to vote yes to take the money out. And the other like 49% that maybe like passive stickholders, they basically get screwed over and they cannot do anything at all. And so if you have this system of this solution, you can say, all right, these are the things that are not allowed in this DAO. And so one of them is 51% attacks. And so when someone opens a boat,

anyone can dispute it and can basically stop that from happening. And so I think that's the very, very first service that will make DAO's mainstream or help make them mainstream because otherwise 51% attacks could stop this trend for open DAO's. But there are also, other things that may be useful for DAO's in the long term.

So we are thinking about building our own layer one protocol, our own like blockchain as well, very optimized for the use case of DAOS. And so the idea or how we're thinking about it is A&T is useful for two things. One of them is pure governance over the project. So like A&T holders right now have basically all the governance over the project. They can choose what are the development teams. They can choose proclamations.

They can claim, for example, there is like the Fight for Freedom Day, February 10, which is the day that the Argon Network Dow proclaimed as like the sort of like yearly vacation for the network. They can do all of these things. And also they will be able to basically change A&T in this bonding curve for other tokens that are like the Juroz token, maybe the like Argon Chain token, all of these things, right? But A&T is like a pure governance token, basically.

And you mentioned that you guys might try to build your own blockchain and you're currently on Ethereum. Why would you switch what is not optimal about it? Ethereum for Argon? Well, things are, things in Ethereum are great in terms of composability. The problem with Ethereum right now is, of course, like in terms of the roadmap, I would say it's not very appealing, the Ith 2.0 roadmap. I think three years from now, it's really a lot of time.

And so we are real worried about the scalability. So, for example, you know, in 2017, there was the whole, like, ICO craziness. And so you have one ICO, and that one ACO would basically stop the network from Bureau operational. And now with Argon fan racing, we are going to see that maybe multiply by like, you know, one order of magnitude more because you can open a fundraise with like two clicks, have this down fundraise money. And it's all on chain because it's a bonding curve. So like basically all transactions happen on chain. So they are even more expensive than like, you know, the ICA craze back in 2017. And so if that happens, we could have like serious scalability issues.

And the problem there is that, you know, like there are two ways to do it. One of them is to optimize the whole network or the other one is to just optimize another network that you tailor for that specific use case. And so, for example, you may make cheap or like basically free to run operations that are important for DAO's. So like one of them that is very important for us is permission checking. So like does this holder have permission to like with our finances from the DAO? And if they don't, what is the best route that they could do it?

maybe they have tokens, maybe they can open a boating, so they can withdraw money from the DAO, all of these primitives that we have in our smart-country framework called Aragon OS. They could have way, way, way cheaper prices if we have our own chain. Then the problem there is composability. So, like, ideally, you have all of these protocols on Ethereum, right? And then you are able to access them from these other chains, so, like, a DAO can still open a CDP, a DAO can still own that. But that's kind of the irrational, that, you know, you can build these chains that are very optimized

for certain things, and then they connect back to Ethereum for having network effects or composability. Or security even, maybe. Yeah, Ethereum is like the most secure, like, smart-contactored network. And there is, I think, no doubt that it's going to have, like, the maximum security compared to other, like, application-specific chains. Just to go back earlier in that description, you were saying token bonding curve. Can you describe what that is for people? Yeah, so if anyone is familiar with, like, stuff like Uniswap, like, it's a very similar concept.

it's basically a way in which you can change two tokens in a fully decentralized way. And the goal thing about the bonding curve is that you can basically define the demand and supply sites. So you can sort of architect the price that it's going to take. So if there is more demand, it might go up more. And you can also basically have reserves attached to this bonding curve. So let's say, for example, in Oregon fundraising, like when you buy tokens into the curve, what you are doing is we're, for example, sending dye or ether or something into this curve, and then this curve is minting new tokens for you in this DAO that is fundraising.

And so what happens in the other way around is you sell these tokens, and then you get part of these reserves out in ether or die or whatever. The reserve ratio is defined in. And so that's how Bonding curve works, and it's very, very exciting, because you can basically, in the case of Aragon fundraising, get read of, centralized exchanges. You don't need to be listed in finance or coin invest or anything like that. You can just have this bonding curve and then in a decentralized way, anyone can exchange it. Well, yeah, it's really cool. It's like having a market that's just determined by the software.

Exactly. Or something. Yeah. So then the other thing I want to ask about was you kept saying that basically you can build a blockchain so that certain functions are cheaper. But why can't you do that via the smart contract? Do you know what I'm saying? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, well, smart contracts. So, like, it's very in Ethereum, for example, like, everything is very generic. And then you have some functionalities that they are built to be faster.

So the way they do that is via upcodes or pre-compiles, which basically means that the client understands certain code. And instead of, like, running it in the virtual machine, it just runs it in a much more efficient way directly, almost like native way, right, instead of this virtual machine. And so you can, and the whole thing. thesis around like polka dot cosmos these protocols is that

you may be able to architect your whole chain using these things so everything is faster and cheaper instead of running like super generic virtual machines of course I think the concept of a virtual machine is amazing because with Ethereum you can go anything like you are not constrained to what

the pre-compiles or what the upcodes say you can build anything and that's the main difference with Bitcoin right and what made it attractive but on the other hand I think having the power for the whole Argon community to also basically govern what goes into a pre-compile, what goes into an up-code, what is optimized, what is even not optimized.

Maybe there are things that we don't want to optimize for that we want to make them slower. So like wins and devices, let's use of that. So I think that's a very cool concept, like reclaiming sovereignty from layer one, basically. Oh, now I'm under, so that's why there have been all these votes around whether or not to either invest in Pocod or build on Pocod, it's because if you do that,

if you build on Pocodot, then you could have a parochane that is, oh, now I see, where it's, like, kind of customized for the needs of Aragon. Exactly. And then DOS can choose, right? Maybe if you are building a DAU that is all about interacting with, like, compound and dye and all of these protocols, maybe there's still a case for Ethereum. And you want to have super high security. It's going to be super expensive to interact with that DAO for sure.

But if you want to do that, there's still a huge use case for that. But we also want to enable other use cases, like, you know, organizing with my friends, maybe I want to create that with like 10 people or I want to run fundraising and I want people to be able to put money in without having to pay a dollar per transaction, then you want to enable that other set of use cases as well. Okay. I actually want to go back to ask about the jury one more time or the court because I was noticing, so basically when you were describing how the jurors come to their decision, you guys, you know, conceded that, okay, jurors might discuss the vote with each other offline.

But then you also said that the juror fees are, quote, distributed proportionally among the jurors that voted for the final ruling option, meaning like they basically get paid only if they voted for the one that won. But I feel like doesn't that give the jurors a financial incentive to collude? And then also, like, because, you know, they have to stake the A&T, it seems like they would be incentivized. to always vote in favor of what is the best for the value of their own token. But I didn't know if that could sometimes skew the outcomes in a weird way. And if you found that desirable or if you even had thought that, you know, realize that that might happen. Yeah, well, first on collusion, the idea is that if that happens,

you can still, like, you know, kind of raise that to the next level. And then the next set of euros... Like what the appeal you mean? Yeah, exactly. You do an appeal. And the next set of euros may not collude again. So, like, it may go back. to like the original sort of outcome that the case

had in the first place. And then for A&T and actually like sort of the incentive there, that's an interesting question. And there is some research. This is not going to be in our version one. It's too complex. But there has been research on basically if the whole network gets corrupted on doing what it's called like a futarkey fork.

So basically what will happen there is that if the whole network is... And actually just described for people what futarkey... is. Yeah, for sure. So, future key is this very cool, almost governance mechanism, but not really, in which you basically have, like, two different predictions. And so basically you predict what is going to be the winning option over a certain metric. So, for example, let's say you are running a country. And so this country, you define that this access metric is a GDP of the country. And then you have, like, two different presidents. And so they, you may vote or you may bet on the president that is going to increase the GDP more. And then if the president, if one president

wins and then I increase the GDP, you get rewarded for a betting on that. And then if on the contrary, the GDP goes down, then you get us last or you may just not get rewarded for that outcome. And so there's this final process that is very much in research right now, which is that the whole network gets corrupted. So like ANT holders all get corrupted and there's a 51% attack on the whole network, which will be, we'll be. would be very expensive, but could happen. Then you could basically split the network into and then run a full-jerkie market

on which is going to be the A&T price in the future. And so if the network is incentivized to keep running and to keep the court running, you could predict that Ageny price will go up if the court case is actually resolved in a rational way, right? Instead of being corrupt. And so if you do that, you could basically choose the fork in which A&T is valued more because that's the one in which people are betting that the outcome was right and each the other one.

It's like a very sort of like sci-fi structure, but it's very interesting. Look Duncan from our team proposed a few months ago, and I think it makes a lot of sense. And wait, so just so I understand, it's sort of like you, it would be like if back when Ethereum Classic split from Ethereum, if there were like. like markets placed on which one. Exactly. But then what would happen? So whichever one has the

high GDP or whatever, then what? You kill off the other chain? Like how, like that's not possible, right? Yeah. I mean, basically what will happen is that people just kind of migrate from one to the other. And that's it. Like, you have like two different tokens and then there is one token that accruous value. People bet on it and the

other one who loses value and may end up being worthless. Okay. But I don't know. With ideology, some people be convinced that they were right anyway. But anyway, okay. All right. So we've been talking a lot about governance of like the Dow is within Aragon, but then let's talk about the governance of Aragon itself because you have a way of governing Aragon, which is called AGP, which is sort of similar to like an Ethereum Improvement proposal or a Bitcoin approval proposal. So describe the HEP

system. Yeah. So EGPs are Aragon governance proposals and they are the ways that you can change Aragon or Governing Arrigan. And so there is AEP0, which is the Argon manifesto. It's like a very broad mission statement about the project, which lists the values that the project has. And then there is AEP1, which is the governance process itself, like how you can submit AEPs and get them passed and approved. And then there are just like AGPs that people are proposing.

And so these AEPs may take different shapes. So one of them is like a finance track AGP, which basically is around finance management and funding different teams and funding initiatives. There is a meta-track which changes the process itself, the governance process itself. There's a proclamation track. For example, this, like, FIF Freedom Day that I was talking about that was put in by the network.

It was a proclamation. It was the network proclaiming, I want to have a national holiday, so to say. And so the cool thing about this AEPs is that they get voted by the whole network and then agency holders are free to vote and then whatever happens is executed. So right now, there is a point in central. though that I have to talk about, which is there is this legal entity in Switzerland

called the Arrigan Association and that one Ragnolkirates proposals and uses this mechanism, this boxing mechanism as signaling for what to do, but in the end, the Arragon Association is the one that is executing these things and is curating them as well. And so that's a point of centralization. And the issue why we cannot get away with it right now is because the Argon Association has to curate these proposals, so they are not. outright illegal, right? Because right now, the Arragon Association is the one

that has the funds for taking care of the project. And so he has the power over these finances, and if the Arragon Association just basically send money somewhere that was maybe illegal, then it would have been held liable.

How we want to change it and fully decentralized the project is actually using the Argon court. So one of the first use cases that we're going to have for the court is actually ourselves. We're going to transition the money, the the funds for the project into Adao. And then we, instead of curating that via the Aragon Association, we're just going to have this sort of like manifesto,

and then people will be able to propose AEPs, and the network, like token holders, may actually approve or reject them for the ballot. So if they, if the AEPs don't agree or don't really empower or don't really follow the Aragon manifesto, then you can open a dispute and basically they don't go to the vote. So that's how we plan to this. Rosabros in there. Okay, there's so much to unpack there, but basically, so the Aragon

Association is sort of like the Ethereum Foundation in Switzerland, where essentially it has control of the funds from the crowd sale. But then there are like literal people that have signed on as directors where in Switzerland, if, you know, you guys do anything out of line with the mission of the association, then you can be held personally liable. So now you want to decentralize that into, did you say it was a smart contract or a Dow? It's a doubt, yeah. But like, so what I didn't get was this part where people vote and then then you disperse the funds based on how they vote. So how does that happen?

Because like, to my mind, it would seem like you would need a multi-sig, but then there's like people in control that multisig. Yeah. So, well, we want to decentralize the funds as well. So, like, that would be one having the funds. Okay, right. But then for the Dow to make a transaction who initiates that. And the good thing is that, like, the goal thing is that, like, the goal. Governors of this DAG would be ANT holders.

So the end-holders initiate the vote. And then if the support threshold is passed and the vote passes, then it automatically gets executed and the money goes out. Like the smart contract does it? Exactly. Like it's just coded. Yeah. Okay.

So if people vote, like, let's give Laura 100% of the tokens. Exactly. And that passes. Then what? Then it happens. So the smart contract sees, okay, it's passed. Oh, okay, so I get it. So then whoever makes the proposal, they're proposing a piece of code where it's like,

if such and such, then move the money to Laura's address, something like that? Yeah, it's pretty much like that, yeah. Like when you create, when you open it out these days and you create like a finance proposal, for example, what you're saying is my intent is to get money from this place to this other place and I want to get, you know, maybe a hundred A&T, like, you know, token and also amount. and then when it's passed, then automatically like the smart contract basically executes that intent. Okay. So this has happened multiple times down on the conversation, but it's very good because you keep like answering the question almost before I get there.

Because my next question was asked was to ask about your ideal governance, which you remember I asked you about in the beginning. And I was wondering how Aragon currently falls short. So that seems like one way. But are there any other ways where you feel like Aragon, you know, needs to make other changes to get closer to your ideal? One interesting conversation we're having the Arragon community right now is around locked voting and rewards for voting. So there was this very interesting AEP that happened, I think, in the last boat or in the

previous one, which was about Argon buying dots on polka dot. And there was... Which was just because you guys wanted to invest like $1.5 million into dots, right? Yeah, it was something like that. Yeah, exactly. Okay. And so that was a very interesting proposal because basically it didn't pass at the end. But then there was this proposal called AEP 42, which was about not building in Aragon on PolkaDOT.

So there was Amin from like Spang Chain and Moloch proposed that one and that one. He was unchained in case people missed that episode. You should listen to it. It's very good. Anyway, keep going. Yeah, so there was AEP 42, which was about. like are not building on PolkaDot? And I mean posted this tweet like, you know,

who can lend me one million A&T so I can like sway the boat. I can vote on my preposter and I can get it passed, right? And the issue with tokens right now is that they are tradable. So I mean, it's not an issue, right? It's just like a functionality they have. But you can buy them and if they are used for governance, you may be able to sway the rest of the boat. And so there's this idea about locked voting,

which is you lock your tokens for maybe a year and you get a reward for boarding. So you get more boarding power. You log them for four years. You got even more. You've logged them for 100 years. You get even more. And so the idea there is that you want to have people in your community that are really

incentivized for the long term of the project. So the more they lock their tokens, the more incentivized they are for the long-term outcomes and not the short-term ones. So you prevent communities or having communities which are made of like, you know, pan-pand-dampers, basically, which happens a lot in the crypto space. And so that's one interesting conversation. You have one is around reward. votes. So rewarding people who vote, maybe via inflation, but then you have the problem of random

voting. So, like, you don't want incentivize people to just go there and, like, random boat, whatever they want to vote. You need to make sure that they read and they understand it. And so maybe a combination of rewards plus locked voting would be an ideal way to actually incentivize people to stay and take decisions in the long term. And then just so I understand, so for the locked votes, like the longer you lock them than the more weight your vote has? Oh, yeah, yeah. Okay. So it's similar to to the lock drop that Edgeware was doing where you get more tokens

the longer you lock them up. Well, one other thing that I wanted to ask about was, so voter participation has so far been low. Like on that, for the one, so that vote in the spring on whether or not to buy dots at all, less than 5% of all tokens were used in that vote.

So how do you plan to get higher levels of participation? Well, I think there are multiple ways to achieve that. One of them is your experience. I think right now it just takes money to vote. It's a very long process. And also, if there are like 10 proposals from the ballot, some of them are very complex and you need to like study them. So it takes a lot of time. It literally takes like a full day for an Argon community member to study them and vote accordingly. So that's,

that could be enhanced way more. I think also delegative voting will help. So we're planning to implement that. So you can delegate your votes to someone else and then they can, they can put. I think in the future it will be less of a direct democracy and more as like representative. I think that's where the world has been going for the last hundreds of years, right? We have like these representative democracies. And so I think that's great. But these new systems also allow you to vote directly if you don't want to go through like these intermediaries, right? So I think that's great.

And also with this liquid democracy, you're able to basically delegate. And then if the representative is doing something wrong, you can automatically, delegate to another one. You don't have to wait for four years, four year terms. And so I think that's super interesting to increase participation turnout. On the other hand, I have to say, I think we're very obsessed with participation, and we shouldn't focus on that so much, we focus on the outcome of the decisions. And so if you look at the Argon Network and the outcomes of their decisions, so far it's been, like, amazing.

Like, I'm really amazed by there hasn't been any major, like, decision that has impacted the project in a negative way. And so I think the important part is the decision outcome, and not a participation really necessarily. Well, one thing also is that at this moment, there's not a lot of usage of the network. Like, there are fewer than 700 organizations in Aragon so far, and then there's even, like, less than $1 million in Aragon smart contracts.

So what are your plans to get more adoption? That's a great question. I think that's one of the main problems of this space. We are building technology that is very idealistic, but the issue is how to get, like, actual, like, mainstream users. I think fundraising will really help it's a use case

that I love Oregon fan racing is actually I think the best way to fundraise from anywhere in the world and then do it in an accountable

and transparent way so I think that will really have a lot of adoption in the short term we're also launching a new version that is going to make it

way easier for people to use Oregon in terms of user experience so I think that will really help as well I think there is one missing piece

which is onboarding like cryptombord in like private keys and all of these things. And I'm very excited to see that more and more projects are taking on it. Because ideally, like, you don't need to remember private keys. You don't need to install Metamask. You just like use it like a work-to-app almost. And so I think that would really help adoption as well.

Focusing on niche use cases and kind of hand-holding users, there is something that I'm very excited about. And we have started doing more and more. And because there is where you see these struggles that people are having. and so I think that will really help in the medium term. I think in the short term it's actually very tough to get mainstream adoption. I think even what we are seeing is that people are using Aragon in the crypto scene more than mainstream right now because the crypto people actually understand way better

why they need it, right? So we had this example of like a melon protocol, which launched their docket sale time ago and they built a protocol. Wait, melon? Yeah, melon. Oh, she was on my, Mono was on my show too. Nice, yeah. Yeah, they are great.

And so I think as of like a few days ago, actually, they transitioned their whole governance to a tonaragon Dow. Oh, wow. So they have these Dow of token holders and these token holders both a council and this council can upgrade the smart contracts. So that's adoption right there. But I think we're going to see mainstream adoption more in the medium, long term and not so much in the short term. I think in the short term, crypto adoption is going to be the most powerful. Yeah, yeah. When I was researching this, I was like, this is getting.

really futuristic and I was like, you know, this isn't like something that people are really using a lot now. Yeah. But it's really interesting. And I did another episode with like Glenn Weil or Glenn Whale and Santiago, Siri, and some of the ideas were similar. So you kind of mentioned something about this, but I wanted to ask you directly. So this is actually something I'm not certain about.

But I did read somewhere that you personally have a large percentage of A&T. I could not verify that. I tried to figure that out, but I couldn't. So you can correct me if I'm wrong. But regardless, like, do you think in general the concept of whales adversely affects governance? And if so, how, you know, would you guys try to address that? Yeah. Well, I think there is a lot of hate against, like, plutocracy.

And I think on one hand, like, that's understandable. But on the other hand, having people who have, like, a strong screen in the game is actually very good. Like, I think if you put up, if you're a PC fan, for example, and you put up, a significant amount of your portfolio to use by a token because you really believe in the future of it. Then, I mean, capital at the end of the day is like how you stake in the systems, if you will. So, like, if you build that position overtime, you, of course, deserve, like, to govern it in some way. I think the confusion comes in when we talk about common goods versus not common goods. And so, I think actually I have an interesting discussion yesterday about this, where someone was arguing that,

Bitcoin and Ethereum were not protocols, because protocols are just standards and standards are free. So with Bitcoin and Ethereum, you need to buy to be part of it. So I think, actually, what we are seeing is that what we call protocols are not protocols. They are networks. And they are, as I see them, they are like a next version or next generation shareholder governance. So in traditional corporate, you have shareholders and they govern the whole system. usually they are very institutionalized and we have the companies like Apple, Google

which had a lot of early investors back in the day which basically kind of had all the growth all the upside from these networks and now with Bitcoin Ethereum we're seeing the more and more retail investors are getting in and they are also profiting from these huge networks that have been built in the early beginning and I think that's a beauty field.

Like they are much more open, they are much more fluid. You don't need to be an accredited investor you don't need to be a VC to access it real, like real quick or in the very beginning of the project. Like if you look at Bitcoin, for example, it wasn't busy firms that got Bitcoin at $1. It was Cypherpunks, people who were buying drugs. It was like completely different crowd. And I think that's like the way to look at it. It's like an extended version of shareholder governance, like a next generation surholder governance,

and not so much common goods, although it also has a kind of bit of a common good, but I wouldn't say I wouldn't look at it that way as of right now at least. Yeah. The one comment I have that about that is I think there were some wealthy people who got in at a dollar, but I won't name them on the podcast. But anyway, actually, so I actually wanted to just ask more directly about that issue with the Pocodot vote. And you kind of addressed it with a locked voting, but I didn't know if there was like anything else you would add. But basically, so just for people who don't know, and I can't remember if we described on the show, but basically there was this vote, you know, should we stay focused on Ethereum or should we also develop on Pocod? Godot. And as the vote was going along, it seemed like the sentiment was to stay vote developing on Ethereum. And then at the very last minute, somebody put in a ton of tokens to sway the vote in the other direction, where it would be really impossible in a short amount of time to overcome the tokens they'd put in. So would the locked voting solve that? Or is, are there any other solutions you guys are thinking of? Yeah, to be more specific, like the boat, the outcome of

the boat was like no, but like I think it was like 1% more no than yes. And then this whale made it like way, you know, more kind of no than yes in the end. But it was already no. I think with locked body, you may be able to solve it. But I don't think it's an issue. Like in this particular case, I was trying to like identify who this person was. And I couldn't. That's the video of it.

But I was trying to identify like you just go into it through a scan and seeing what tokens they hold and all of that. And it was like like an OG, like an R. on OG. This person was in the community for a long time. And so I think with log-boding, actually, like, maybe even this person has more power. But, you know, they were an OG. I think they, I don't know if they bought in the market. I cannot remember. But definitely other thing, you know, if they have bought this share of their cake, I think they still legitimate that they vote. Okay. So you don't have any other ways to kind of prevent the gaming of the system in this way? Or do you not see it as gaming? Well, there is one way. I don't see it as gaming, to be

honest, but there is one way that you can prevent this kind of last minute boats. I think the issue is last minute boats, right? In the last minute, so I'm basically changing the outcome. And so you can have this mechanism for boarding that's actually also been kind of discussing the community, which is that if there's a significant change in Mancer in the last minutes or hours or if there is like a significant amount of boats, you can extend the period of time of that boat for like 24 hours or 48, something like that, and then do that again and again until like basically there are no like final last minute votes and then at that

point is like the final outcome is revealed so I think the stuff like that may help also like kind of lock and and reveal voting where boats are not transpiring by default but you have to like commit first and then rebuild it at the end and then like all boats are public but use at the end and not like real time I think that would help and obviously you and I were here this week in Berlin for web in DAPCon. So did you guys present anything or like what what milestones will people be looking at going forward? Yeah. So Michael founder Jorge presented the Argon Network and it was it was so cool because like the room was so packed. It was really amazing to see like the interest on on a court system, which like two years ago was sci-fi and no one really believed that could be like you know done.

Then I had the opening keynote at the Weather Summit and the Weather Summit this year was very much about DAO. It was kind of crazy. It was me and then Ryan Serder presenting some ideas around very interesting DAOES that are coming up. Then there was DAOPA panel. Then it was YALDA from one of the Aragon development teams called OTHARC presenting their Aragon apps and their street for like Oregon organization. So it was pretty much about DAO's and I'm super excited because like I think, you know, we saw this trend coming, but we didn't see the interest so much in the community this past two years or so. I think the stigma around that was still being carried around. And I think now we are are like liberating ourselves from that and we're ready to like you know like the doubt 2.0 kind of thing right so I'm super super super excited about it and then we also presented the Aragon design system which is our take on enhancing consistency across all the Aragon platform and making sure that Aragon app developers can easily design a new apps by like basically dragging and dropping components yeah so a couple things so I wanted to do this show partially because I know everybody's talking about DOWs again so I was like okay this is like a good way to

to kind of be on trend. But then the other thing was that, actually, it's funny that we mentioned this space thing before because Yaldav's idea is about governance and space. Yeah. Like, she wants to, what was it? It's like something like a decentralized organization to explore space or something?

Yeah, it's like a decentralized SpaceX, basically. Okay. Yeah, yeah. So that's funny that was the theme in this episode. Well, anyway, thanks so much for coming on Unchained. Yeah, thanks, Laura. Thanks, love. Thanks so much for joining us. today. To learn more about Luis and Aragon, check out the show notes inside your podcast player.

If you're not yet subscribed to my other podcast, Unconfirmed, which is shorter and a bit newsier, be sure to check that out. Also, find out what I think are the top crypto stories each week by sending up from my email newsletter at Unchainedpodcast.com. Unchained is produced by me, Laura Shin, with help for a factual recording, Anthony Yoon, Daniel Ness, and Rich Struffolino. Thanks for listening.