Unchained - How Does Crypto Remain Secure in a World of Always On AI Hacks? - Uneasy Money

Episode Date: April 10, 2026

Anthropic's new model is too dangerous to release publicly. It's already found 20 zero-days. Kain, Taylor, and Austin want to know when it finds the first one in a smart contract. Thank you to our sponsors!⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ MultiChain Advisors is an emerging technology growth firm that has helped create over $50 billion in enterprise value for more than 80 clients, like Pyth, Moonpay Commerce, and Wormhole.  They’re the partner you want when you’re navigating markets and trying to break out from the noise. They help navigate TGEs, go‑to‑market, BD and partnerships, capital markets advisory, PR, media placements, KOL activations and more, driving execution from launch to scale. Visit multichainadv.com. Bitcoin’s application layer, Citrea, launched its mainnet, expanding Bitcoin’s utility to privacy, lending, BTC yields, and more. Citrea enables: cBTC: The first trust-minimized Bitcoin on a fully programmable platform. ctUSD: A native stablecoin for Bitcoin, allowing for unified liquidity. Bitcoin Capital Markets bringing demand, and utility to the Bitcoin Network. Explore the Citrea Ecosystem. Ether.fi is giving Unchained listeners 15% cashback on food and ride apps — and that's on top of the 3% you get on everything else.  Your bank is charging you to use your own money. Laura switched and loves her card! Go to ether.fi/unchained to claim your offer. Anthropic's Mythos model is so capable that the company restricted access to 12 partners and a $100 million compute budget rather than releasing it publicly. It has already identified 20 zero-day vulnerabilities in decades-old software.  Now the question over DeFi: if Mythos turns its attention to smart contracts, what survives? The Balancer V2 hack rattled assumptions about immutability as a security guarantee.  Kain Warwick, Taylor Monahan, and Austin Griffith of the Ethereum Foundation work through what autonomous AI hacking means for protocols built to be unhackable, why skill files are the sleeper development in the agent stack, how a degen farming bot locked funds in an Aerodrome gauge through a single wrong NFT transfer, and what Anthropic's 89% uptime tells you about the infrastructure running the most powerful AI on earth. Hosts: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Kain Warwick⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠, Founder of Infinex and Synthetix ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Taylor Monahan⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠, Security Expert Guest: Austin Griffith, Ethereum Foundation Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

I'm Kane Warwick and welcome to Uneasy Money because what happens on chain never stays on chain. Before we start, nothing you hear on UnEasyMoney is financial advice. We're just three builders talking about what's happening on chain and want you to always do your own research before a beginning. You can find all our disclosures at UnchainedCryptto.com slash uneasy money. And before we begin, here is a word from the sponsors that make the show possible. Multi-Chain Advisors is an emerging technology growth firm that has helped create $50 plus billion in enterprise value for 80 plus clients over the past four years. They're the partner to help navigate markets.

Build real traction today at multi-chain ADV.com. All right. I'm here with my co-host Taylor Monaghan, security expert and a repeat guest second time. Alston Griffith of the Ethereum Foundation. It is April 8th, Wednesday. Our first segment, so we got the right people in the room here. this first segment. I think the timeline has been going a little bit crazy for all of the mythos stuff.

The Anthropic has basically said this model is too dangerous to release. So we have released it to you. And I guess we should probably go through a few of the things that this model has been doing, right? it has figured out like 20-0-day vulnerabilities in like decades-old software, which feels a little bit like what crypto has been kind of going through for the last like, whatever, you know, six months where all of these old things keep getting hacked and we're like, this thing's been on the chain for four years. How is it possible that, you know, we, we, we, we're in this position where, you know, Balancer V2 gets hacked, right?

And then Mythos is like, well, I have hacked OpenBSD. And you're like, excuse me? Like, so it's just, it's kind of petrifying. So, yeah, I mean, Austin, what's, what's your take on Mythos based on what you've seen so far? Just generally. And then I guess in relation to all of the, like, crypto agent stuff you've been doing. Yeah, I think, I mean, the crypto agent stuff I've been doing is very insecure. So that'll be the first thing to break.

But I think that like, like I said, I think it's like we got to rip the bandaid off. Like it's going to happen. We got to do it, you know, smart. But I think that we're going to see this. We're going to see AI get so good that a bunch of hacks are going to happen. And then not so many hacks are going to happen anymore. And I think the balancer one is the one that really sticks out in my mind. like code that was around for five years, all of a sudden gets popped for, you know,

hundreds of millions of dollars or a hundred million dollars or whatever it was. Like that's, that's scary and crazy. And I think we're going to see that for a little bit and then not so much anymore. But yeah, I'm ready to rip the Band-Aid off. Let's do it in a bear market. So I think in crypto we have a slightly different problem. And Tay, maybe you can address this. right? It is certainly awkward if you have 100,000 Linux servers and like, you know, load balancers are running BSD and it's like,

we don't want to take this thing down because if we take it, you know, it's not easy to replace this architecture, right? But it's just software. You can in theory patch it, upgrade it and like do a hot swap or something like that, right? Like these are systems that are not necessarily designed to like be immutable. What happens if mythos is like, oh, you need be two, I've cracked it? Yes. That's going to be a problem. A massive problem.

And I mean, I think this industry has realized this over time that immutability is like freaking amazing in so many ways. but also quite impractical and creates risk. And I think this was actually a big conversation during the drift hack, immediate aftermath, because all the Ethereum people were like, just don't have keys, don't have upgradable contracts. I get it. But at the same time, like, I'm not convinced that we are, I'm,

If you're launching something today, I'm not going to bet that it's perfectly secure forever. I'm sorry. Like, I can't think that. Uniswap is the counter example to this that has given people more hope than it probably should would be my hot take on this, right? Like Uniswap is amazing software, but like it's like one function, Like it literally like it just rebalances a thing, right? Like it, it, you know, it is not a super complicated multi-contract smart contract suite.

Like, you know, it's like for what it is. And yet like my confidence to its unhackability has gone down significantly over the last like 48 hours, right? Like if, if, you know, people like these are things, these are these pieces of software that are securing like billion dollar systems with people getting paid tens of millions of dollars a year to secure them. And of course, Uniswap has had this giant bug bounty. If you can hack it, then, you know, like so, so it's not like we haven't had, you know, security pressure in, in the ecosystem. But it's a different level, like a different level, different scale to what some of these

systems have had. And yet there's like zero. days in them. So we talked about this, we talked about this like maybe a month ago, Tay, right? Where I was like, how confident are we that someone doesn't have a really smart, like fine-tune model that they've been working with that's like systematically going through and like breaking these smart contracts? Like given what they've said about mythos, does that change your perspective on the last like a couple of months of hacks or you think it's still just a coincidence and it's going to get much worse no i don't well i do think it's going to get worse

for sure um but i think i still think okay mythos is like it's a level up um and i think that they have it seems like they've specifically been thinking about security and been like like the people that really know this stuff have been zoomed in on on the security elements right the exploit elements the safety elements that come with the security elements um it it wouldn't I mean obviously there are going to be people who are like just random people that are doing the same things um how far they've gotten and how like what's the most productive use of those things. I feel like

I feel like it's not I don't think we're at the point where they've like honed it in so completely that they can just like let it loose, right? Let their little hacker claw loose on whatever. But I do think that we've seen like

AI assisted, right, where the AI is identifying things or speeding up those feedback loops. Right? Because when you're fighting these exploits, you have to like, there's like so many different sort of stages of finding the exploit. You have to like hold all this data or you before you had to like hold all this data in your head and like understand it. And then even once you figured out like this is a weakness, you then had to execute it. Right.

You had to actually put together the series and stuff that would do it without fail. I definitely think that we've seen AI like rapidly like assist with with some of those stages. I think Mythos is scary because it sounds like they're like, this is like, I'll just go hack you. You don't even need. It's not assisting you anymore. It's doing the thing, right? Yeah, exactly. And that's what scares me, especially because Uniswap is also unique in the sense where they do have, it's a protocol.

It's low level, right? They do have a huge bug bounty on it. Most of like the core software that runs this world is not built, but. by people with million-dollar bug bounties, right? It's like... Fair, yeah, fair. That's what I think this is going to be worse for Web 2

than it is for Web 3. I think that like even though we have like money right behind, you know, one line of code, someone joked that like the West contract got hacked, right? Like when there is just like a smart contract that has a deposit and a withdrawal function is basically like you're talking about like hacking the protocol at this point if there's something that goes wrong there.

So I feel like, but sorry, Austin, like, are we not as well? Like, you know, we like validators, like, I mean. This is the more complicated piece, right? Yeah, like validators are and like that would be, I don't even know, like, or even just say, hey, mythos, buddy, I've got some interesting news for you. there's this thing called MEV. And if you can like just listen to this stream of transactions and just tweak it a little bit,

we can make a lot of money. And Mythos is like, yeah, I love breaking things. Let's go. I do think, yeah. So we're talking about breaking things and making a lot of money. And then MEV is just like

being smart about ordering transactions and just like playing the game of like the Mim pool. I think there's a ton of money to be made by just running these awesome frontier models. I don't know what we'll see. I think it's going to be really interesting. I think so I love Uniswap. I think Uniswap is beautiful. And it's like really isolated versions and it's not upgradable.

Like the way that Uniswap V2 functions is like this beautiful hyperstructure. And if V3 gets popped like V2 probably won't and if V2 gets popped, V3 probably won't. Like, there's not a lot of, like, cascading things that can happen from, from system to system. So I don't know. I think it's going to be worse for Web 2 than it is for Web 3. And I think that in Web 3, there are people who have deployed their systems and done tons of bug bounties and tons of audits. And I think that's going to be good for them. But, of course, like, we saw the balancer thing.

And the balancer thing really changed my mind. That was when I was like, oh, gosh, like, that's shit. This thing, yeah, this is dangerous. And, you know, that was very unlikely to be mythos. Right. Like that was very unlikely to be myth. That was probably a dude with Opus. Yeah.

Yeah. So I think the other thing that's interesting about mythos, like, you know, just zooming out above the like security risks and all of that stuff that we see. This is the first time that we've seen, at least to my knowledge, right? Like we've seen like, you know, early previews, but like most of the time they just let the thing out in the wild. They're not that scared of it that they're like, uh, we'll like give it to people, you know. And like if you read, they release the agent card, right? It's like this like 200 page document that says all the things they did and like basically ass covering. So when it like burns the world down, they could be like, no, no, no, we tried to like stop it from doing this.

So they, you know, for previous models, they give it to researchers, they give it to a bunch of people, they do a whole bunch of things before this thing gets out in the wild, they do internal testing, etc. This is the first time, at least to my knowledge, that I've seen a model that's so smart, that they're so scared of it, that they're like, we need to give this to a small group of like 12 partners. So, you know, AWS, Apple, Nvidia, the Linux Foundation, et cetera. And say, you're allowed to use this kind of for security purposes for the next, however long. I don't know if I saw how long. Until it finds all the bugs. But like they did also, you know, how expensive is this thing going to be as well?

Because they gave them $100 million worth of usage credits. Now, I'm an inference enjoyer myself, but that's a lot of that, like, it would take a lot to burn through $100 million in credit. So, like, I think they're just imagining these guys are going to run automated lutes. So, you know, one thing this kind of begs the question of is like, Boris Kearney had a really good podcast a couple weeks ago where he was like, you should be building for the model. like we internally we built for the model six months from now right not from the model today so it's six months from now and the model is mythos right which could be any time in the next few weeks and all of the things that we've been building around like harnesses and loops and things it all of that stuff could just pull away because mythos is smart enough that it's like no no it's like you don't

need to put me in a weird like looping thing bro i can just like you know do this uh for two months straight or something, right? You know, because one of the things is like this long running activity, you know, kind of frontier as well, right? Like that as the models get smarter, they can do things autonomously for longer without losing their minds and you stay on task or whatever. If MythLoth can just sit there and like read the entire like OpenBSD code base for two weeks autonomously. Like, obviously that's going to be very expensive, but it also means that a lot of the stuff that we've been doing around like trying to get agents to do what we want, not drift, just sort of disappears, right? The harness is getting, like, I spend a lot of time going back and

forth between like using frontier expensive model and then like, how do I do this in a cheaper way? And how do I use the frontier model to build like a more advanced harness that then can be used on a cheaper model to do the same thing. And it's like using the frontier model to then grade how well the cheap model does. But it's all about like cheap stuff, right? Like what you're saying is basically they'll give us mythos and it will cost me $100 for one request,

but it will one shot uniswap v2. And it will make no mistakes, right? And so I think that is what's coming, right? And that's really interesting. And we've seen this in AI for like years. now, right? Where they were making like all these like, you know, specific things that could do text to image to text and and things like that. And then like a generic model comes out and a generic model can just like look at the image and do it better than any of those hyper specific models. So I think we're we're always going to have like this generic model that's hell expensive but really good. And then we're always going to be kind of like working backwards, building our own harnesses and trying to find like cheaper ways to do the thing that the expensive model can do. And And it's funny going back and forth between it because it's always like, oh my gosh, this is amazing.

Oh my gosh, it's so expensive. How do I like lean back on something cheaper? And then you use the cheaper one for a little bit. You're like, oh my gosh, this is so freaking stupid. Why is it doing this? And then you go back to spending money. And like I'm constantly oscillating between these two states. Well, so I think there's two things here, though.

One is this is the last time we had a new, at least in anthropic land, right? like we had Codex, which was late last year. But Opus first came out, like, middle of last year, is my recollection. That was not great. Like, Opus 4.5 was not great. Like, I was using Sonnet 4.5 to write most of the code. I've been written a line of code for like two years, right? And it's been mostly like a lot of your absolutely rights and a lot of apologizing and a lot of

working backwards. But the real turning point was Opus 4.5. Sorry, maybe I said that wrong. 4.4 was bad. Opus 4.5 in November was the real inflection. Was the one that went across the chatham until like, oh, this thing's better than me at this thing, right? So, you know, 4.1 came out, Opus 4,

and they changed the model name, you know, like anthropics have done some weird model naming things over the years, right? where like sonnet 4.6 was supposed to be the next version of Opus. It was supposed to be Opus 5, right? But then they've got Mythos now. So you can't really keep track of all this stuff. But it has been a while.

And I do remember when I started using Opus and I was like, oh, this thing is actually like super smart, right? Like relative to the baseline of, you know, that period of time. Before that, I'd been using like 03 mini, 04, and those things were like, really dumb, right? Like really, really dumb. But so this is the first time that we've seen, like, a big model leap as well. Like, you know, they need a new name for this.

It's so much smarter than the old one. And the needing a new name thing is like, oh, it's a little bit of a harbinger of like, ah, shit's going to get crazy, right? And the name they use, right? Like, Sonnet is like a poem and Opus is like a body of work. And mythos is like the lore of the whole world. Like, yeah. Yeah, exactly.

Yeah. So I think, I think, you know, like, they're scared of it. Clearly. Like, they're petrified of this thing, right? Like, so they must have some really good NDAs in place as well because we haven't seen too many leaks from people inside these orgs, right? Like, they're doing something to kind of lock this down, clearly. So they also, I think the other interesting thing is that, like, we've seen every time that a new frontier model comes out.

Like, Haiku today is as smart as like OPA-1 is, right? Like different contexts, different constraints, but like it's super smart. It's actually really good. And I mean, to your point, Austin, like, um, With the right prompting, you can get Haiku to do stuff that previously would have required OAPS. Right. So the interesting thing now is how this shifts the cost curve. At the moment, you've got, you know, when OPAs first came out, it was like $75 per million tokens. And now it's dropped down to like 25. And it's got a one million context window. So the prices have been collapsing. And so we have to assume, like, Mythos is going to come out.

It's going to be $100 per million tokens or something like that, right? Or $200 per million tokens are playing insane. But what that will also do, I think, is push the cost curve down so that now probably Sonnet is the same price as Haiku. And Haiku might be like almost free, right? And so now that like, you know, where in the cost curve you're optimizing becomes really critical for certain costs, because if you can get Haiku to do it, you know, it it's like sub sent per interaction and now all of a sudden go to a really scalable thing that like

previously wasn't scalable right so this is the other challenge i think in in you know even if you're building stuff yourself finding that like optimal points but how have you been thinking about like you say you're like go back and forth between like the smartest guy the dumbest guy like how do you think about this in and stuff that you're working it's so it's a lot of like using opus to build like using the general purpose model first. So like I have a smart contract platform called Left Clause services where people can hire it to build apps or audit things or add a feature to an app. And I just have like a general purpose agent that's using Opus and a little sonnet and

it'll go to the smart contract, pull down the job and just do the job. And it's very good. But then it's like, frick, that was 20 bucks or something like that. How do I get that down to $5? And then it's like, well, it's doing, you know, I mean, it's, it's funny you see like Kanye pulled up to McDonald's in the giant lifted truck and it's like using Opus to do whatever like using Opus to do a Git pull on a repo like you pay you pay a dollar to pull a repo down because you're using Opus to do that it doesn't make sense so then it's like okay

let's lean back and figure out like where do I actually need Opus I need Opus when I'm writing this smart contract and when I'm auditing this smart contract and maybe a little bit of front end stuff and then I can use sonnet for some of the front end stuff some of the documentation and then I've using minimax m2.7 for like almost everything else almost all the things that are just like go run this program go do this and it messes up that that's a local model that you're running it's not no no no it's it's it i think it will be but it's not it's like uh through i use it through banker but you can use it it through a bunch of different uh but it is like an olama model but i don't think it's something that really yeah is released yet it's one of those yeah where it will eventually will be local but

right now it's like on someone else's machine, but it costs like a hundredth of what it costs to do with Opus. And it's pretty good. You know, it's a little weirder now and then, but yeah, it's okay. So it's like I'm always leaning back on that and I'm trying to work through like, you know, what costs $20 here? How do I get it down to two Opus calls with just the right and context is important too, right? When you're having this ongoing conversation, the context is building and building, each call, each consecutive call is getting more and more expensive. So what you want to do is kind of have like that consecutive call, that conversation to be over in like mini max M27 land where I'm paying a fraction of a cent each time and it grows to be like,

you know, two pennies over the whole conversation. And then when I go to make that opus call, have mini max give me just the context I need. Like here, here is the exact context you need to write this smart contract. And here are the three things that you kind of do wrong. sometimes and have that all in a very isolated window and have it just like one shot the contract. And then maybe you use Sonnet to say, you know, like here's the three auditing rules and here's the contract. So it's, I think it's just like fine grain, right? So you use the general model and you do the thing and you get it to work and you almost get like product market fit. And then you go back to, you know, making the whole company more efficient after you have

product market fit. So let me ask you this, right? Like that, that kind of of all of the things you've been doing, you've been building a bunch of projects and, and, you know, I want to talk about eat skills for a second as well. But doesn't all of that kind of optimization lend itself to like building a thing that auto switches models and stuff? Like, have you thought about that? Like, we don't really have anything like that yet where it just adapts to what you're doing. There are some, I think. I think maybe clock. was one of them that came out right about the same time I was doing my cloud bot stuff. I think claw router, but there's a couple of these like routers where it looks like an open

AI grade standard endpoint and you hit it and then there's a little inference model in the middle there that says, you know, how technical, how hard is this question and then it sends it to the right model based on that. It's slow. It doesn't work. I haven't like done a bunch of claw router stuff to know like exactly if it's that good or not. But for me, like, I've tried a couple different things in like trying to do some triage on the way out and back in. And I found it easier to just let the generic model do the thing and then go back through and look at like, here's all the steps. Let's break into the steps and let's break it into which of these things is going to be easy and hard. And then from then on kind of having it more hard coded, I guess is what we're thinking.

It's more like a hard code triage process versus a dynamic triage process. But like this is the future, I think. I think you will have a local model running in your V-RAM that can triage the stuff on the way out and then go to frontier models based on how, you know, complicated the question is. It's routing it. Yeah. Yeah. Eventually.

Yeah. But I don't have that working right now. It's all hard-coded. Yeah. So I have a luckily before the... You got like a 512, right? I do. I do.

I've got a 512 gig Mac Studio. And I've played around with a bunch of models there. I've actually got a bunch of old MacBook pros as well. I spent like two weeks trying to get an Exo cluster running. Nice. And I finally got it running. It's got like 800 gigs of RAM. And it's just so slow.

Exactly. You say that you wait forever. You make like 10 queries to Opus while you're waiting for one to come back. It's like, you know, you think Cotech 5.4 is slow. This thing is like just like molasses. And so it's it's too slow to be kind of worthwhile. I need to hook up. I need to try and like speed this up basically. But I've also found that like the local models have been getting better and better, especially specialized models like using a specialized model. but the other thing that I think is super interesting is like these skill files that are starting to emerge right it's like the matrix for agents and so the experience that I had with eat skills like you know you were on the show you talked I built eat skills and I'm like I've seen humans over two years go through the like Austin Griffith. Like, you know, like, and get much better, right?

It's just, it's like a very slow process. And you're like, oh, this guy is like smarter, smart contracts now after like two years of reading these documents, right? The agent, you literally pull down this skill file. This was like the craziest thing, right? I was like, hey, bro, like there's an e-skill thing. You should like look at it, right? And Opus was like, yeah, sure, whatever.

I'll have a look at it. Pulls it down. And then it was just like instantly like, one shot in college. It was crazy how much, because, you know, the thing, the thing is like, all of these models know about crypto. It's in their training data, right? Like, they know about crypto, but they have like a cursory knowledge that's like just enough to be dangerous, right? Where it's like, oh, I know how to do this thing or I know how to do this thing. Eat Skills just like hones it down to like a fine art where like all of a sudden they know,

all of these like very nuanced things about like how contracts work and deployments and stuff. So, so, you know, I haven't, what I haven't tried, I'm curious if you've tried this. Like, if you give mini-max or like even like an even dumber local model that you've tried, eat skills, like is it fine-tuned enough that like set of skills that they can actually do a good job or is it still kind of too hard? I wouldn't put money in it yet. It does some good stuff. So the stuff that my cloud, like Claudebot has deployed smart contracts using e-skills that have like a quarter of a million dollars in it right now. Like Tay, Tay is going to hate this.

I have deployed like through my bot deployed contracts that no human has looked at until they're already on ether scan. They have a quarter of a million dollars in them right now. Like, there's probably like $350,400 total U.S. dollars in token. Across all the like 80 or 90 contracts, my bot has deployed. So I'm using the frontier. We've found you a new target, mythos. Yes. I was like to say, how do we get Austin access to this?

Yes. Yes. Yeah. I think we should give like Danny Ryan access first if I have to give it to someone, right? Like, let's get the protocol guys first. and then some of it. But okay, so the skill files. First of all, like if you out there are building anything

and you're expecting agents to use your anything, you should have a skill file. And this skill file kind of does this like I know kung fu thing, exactly like you're talking about. Like Neo and the Matrix, they plug him in, they hit a couple buttons, and the dude knows how to fly a helicopter or whatever, right? And it happens instantaneous.

And this is what you're doing. You're giving the model all the things it needs to know, And it's basically the delta between its training data and reality. And these models were trained on a lot of 2023 data. Like it's just stuff happens so fast in in crypto land that you have to kind of fast forward it through all the things that have happened. And that's what a good skill file. Yes.

Well, they're the safest. Oh, rip, rip balancer, man. That's too bad. Yes. Yes. And they also think it costs $40 to deploy a contract. on Ethereum and they think there's a handful of things that they just like hallucinate. And they always do this.

They're always, they're so lazy and pattern matching and hallucinating. Like they could go look like, you could do one web request and come back and have the answer. And it's like, nah, bro, I don't want to look it up. I'm just going to like guess at the route and then hit the route and see if it works. Like, oh, why are you so lazy? But, okay, so skill files, you out there, if you're going to have agents using your shit, you should have a skill file for it. It should be whatever your website is.com slash skill.m.m.

And it's just like the robots.com tech stuff. And for a while, we did LLMs.com. But skill. Dot MD is kind of like the canonical route now. So everything, everyone, everyone that's building anything that even humans use right now that agents will do on behalf of humans, like your flight tracking website should have a skill. because really soon we're going to have AI agent travel agents that are doing all this stuff for us. And these skill files get them over that, that delta of you were trained in 2023.

Here's all the stuff that has happened since, you know, it's almost like waking them up and programming them with all that. Like they were in a coma or something. And it's like, here's what you missed over the last two years. And then it's really good, like you said, at one-shotting smart contracts, knowing what the latest tools are, knowing where to go to look things up. And then, okay, so I used an agent to help me write a skill file. And this is like a first mistake that you have to be very careful with.

Because if an AI is hallucinating this stuff from their own context, sort of like from if they know it by heart already, it doesn't belong in a skill file. So you have to do this like constant phase of interrogating each piece of knowledge inside your skill file to make sure that the agent doesn't already know it when you wake it up. So there's this process of just like feedback looping where I'm having the agent, take any little piece of knowledge, check to see if the LLM actually knows that, and then remove it if it knows it so we're not including the context. And then the next like loop outside of that is then use the skill file, give it to an agent,

tell it to go build something, see where it screws up. Oh, you, you deployed the contract, but you didn't verify it on ether scan. Why didn't you verify it on ether scan? And then there's this whole like you have to interrogate the agent and you get to the bottom of it and it realizes like it was lazy it like knows how to do it but it just didn't want to right if you could just have a skill file that says don't be lazy that would be great but it's just not going to do that so you have to be like really strict about certain things and it's and it's like almost if you read through eat skills it reads like you are going to mess this up and here's how you don't mess

it up and it's like you mess you always get this wrong don't get this wrong do it this way and it's like But then you've always find an agent that's like, not me, bro. Like, you're like, no, no, no, no. Like, so I've got a funny story about this, right? So, like, I've got eat skills. That's, that's in my system for that all the agents can, you know, pick that up, right? And, you know, agents are just like people, right? Like, and this story is like one of those ones where you're like,

It's just found the exact same failure mode that we always find, right? So we have been building all of these agentic tools at Infinex for a while now. And I've been tuning one to do like DGEN yield farming, right? Concentrated liquidity farming on aeroderm. So I have an agent. It's like a cluster of agents, right? Like it goes out and it looks at all of the yield farms at the moment and it like does some back testing and sees, okay, this is a good opportunity. I'm going to go and do this one, right?

So it has a hard rule that it has to simulate the transaction with blockade before it does it. And so every transaction before it does it, it simulates a transaction, right? So like simulate the deposit, simulates the staking, simulates all these things. So it one shots a like five transaction four three three seven bundle, right? It bundles up all these transactions, which is like we as people are like, oh, I should transaction bundles but I'm too lazy to do it and these things are like oh no it's fine I can totally so it like does swap from uh it swaps from um main net to base one shot that then it creates this bundle and like does all of these intricate swaps or whatever get the the um nftlp token

right and it had already known that it couldn't bundle it because it needed the id and so it was like and it's like you're getting more and more confident that this guy knows what he's doing, right? That's what they trick you. Yeah. Yeah. Like they trick you in. It's like magic, magic really dumb.

Yeah. So then the agent goes, okay, my next job is simulate the staking transaction of this NFT. So it simulates the transaction. It fails on the second step. And the failure is you're not the owner of this NFT, right? And the reason why it gets that failure is because it has. hasn't authorized the NFT to be transferred yet.

It missed the step, right? And it knew it was supposed to do this, but it misses the step. And it goes, oh, OK, this is not the optimal way to stake the NFT in the gauge. The optimal way is safe transfer from. So I'll just work around this and I will do safe transfer from into the gauge and it does it.

And it's a lot forever. And it's gone forever. And it's like sitting in the gate. And like, and it's funny because you go to the gauge and what do you find? There's like a couple of people that have sent some stupid shit in there. Yeah. Like, and like $1,000 of USDC or something. Yeah, exactly.

And I was like, I was like, how did you get this wrong? Like you're supposed to simulate it. And it's like, yeah, I did simulate it. It didn't work. So then I simulated the safe transfer from. And that did work. And so I was like, this is the right thing. And you're just like, oh, man.

Like, what are you doing? Anyway, so the funny thing is, now I'm like, okay, you, if you're ever doing a staking operation, like, so this is like this iterative process of tweaking the skills. And so now it has a rule. It has to simulate being able to get the money out. Simulate the full round trip. If you are sending a token somewhere, you cannot do it until you're, until you can prove that you can get it out of the contract, right?

And it's like, oh, yeah, that's actually a good rule. I should have. And so that needs to go into skill file, right? The way each skills came about is me doing this same iterative process of building, finding something really dumb, telling it it's about to do something really dumb and not to do it. And then just like keep doing that until it quit doing most of the dumb things. And it was like, hey, everybody here's a skill file. But what you need to write like a skill file for base defy or something like that.

Or even like this process of trying transactions and making sure the, the tokens in equal the tokens out like that should probably be some kind of and there's a lot of people doing this too which is cool and a lot of them just in the crypto world this is another thing that a lot of people that i talk to uh ecc they're fascinated with the fact that people are writing these skill files which are basically a business like you you you can take a skill file and not give it to anyone and make a lot of money off of it and instead like people are choosing to give these skill files away and it's really their secret sauce like the the skill file it was actually mic radar relay that said this this wasn't even easy but anyways the skill file itself is the it's the secret sauce for the whole company

and you're giving it away and it's just kind of like what we see in crypto is people just like figure things out and give them away freely but yeah yeah it's so cool to see what happens like that's the why would you keep it a secret you fools you're gonna have like a thousand people in this little stuck in the same contract. They can go be friends. Or you could just share. Like, come on, guys, what are we doing? I agree. You should share. And I'm giving mine away for free at eatskills.com. You just tell your agent to go to eatskills.com and it has it. It learns. And this is the crazy thing, right? Like, it makes an agent, like, you know, IQ 60, right, about crypto to like IQ 140 in like one. But, you know, part of the problem I think that everyone has right now is like, eat skills could be a pile

law. There's no way to know from first principles. Like, you could look at it and like you see, you know, people like post things on Twitter and they're like, ah, I've built a like looping genetic algorithm that improves. They're larping. Yep. There's so many people that are larping. Yep. And it's like, no, no, like, but so, you know, signal from noise is still a hard game, right? There's a lot of noise and, you know, there's a lot of eat skill files that you could download, right and like you have to somehow know that like actually austin's chewed enough glass to like there's a lot of software out there too right like when when it means running npx i so the the iteration of eath skills before this was called eith wingman and it was an mcp server that would do a lot of this stuff

but as soon as i released east wingman twitter flagged it and other people flagged it because it had like a little one-liner in there that you run it was like an actual mpx command and you're You don't want to do that these days. Like, don't be running random MPX commands. And that's why these skill files are so cool because you can give just a link or you could give just like a text file to an agent and say, you know, go to eatskills.com. Don't learn anything from it.

Just tell me if it's nefarious or not. Like, just go to eatskills.com and tell me if it's good or not. And it can tell you like, oh, yeah, it's actually all good. Like there's nothing nefarious here at all. And then it's like, okay, like learn it, let's go. But you can't do that with an NPS. I found 10 vulnerabilities. Right.

It's just a text file. It's all just a bunch of MD files. Like the website is built by a computer to be read by a computer. So let's move on to our next segment. Anthropic, wild. And, you know, I've probably been in crypto too long because I just kind of find these nefarious, intentions in all of these things. But before we go to open claw being cut off by

anthropic, let's do a quick commercial break, then we'll come back and talk about that. Let's go. Multi-chain Advisors is an emerging technology growth firm that has helped create over $50 billion in enterprise value for more than 80 clients, like Pith, Moon Pay Commerce, and Wormhole. They've worked with some of the largest and most impactful companies in the space. They're the partner you want when you're navigating markets and trying to break out from the noise. They help navigate TGEs, go-to-market, BD and partnerships, Capital Markets Advisory, PR, media placements, KOLA activations, and more, driving execution from launch to scale. Their results are measurable. To learn more and start building real traction today, visit multi-chain adv.com.

all right we're back um so so anthropic has been playing this game with ever since open claw came out of like locking things down um you know uh kind of closing these loopholes of you can use open claw with your anthropic account right um and and i think you know for for people who either like haven't worked in a company where where you have a different setup or they've been doing like their own thing. Most people are kind of used to you pay for a $25 a month subscription or a $200 a month subscription or a $500 a month or multiple subscriptions and you have like a rate limited access of, you know, however many tokens they give you right at like different times. And you know, so you're playing this game of like you like it almost feels like the early internet of like I've

only got 50 megs of download left. What am I going to, you know, and I'm going to be capped out. and then like your internet goes slow or you know, whatever, right? So, so I think most people are in this boat of, I have a, you know, chat GPT subscription. I can use it this much or I've got like a Claude subscription. But what Anthropic wants is for you to be using an API gated account where you have like, you know, a specific API or multiple API keys that you are using. And it is all kind of, you know, on.

on-tap inference and you're paying per call via APIs, right? So I'm curious your setup, Austin, like, are you using the API mode or are you mixing and matching with accounts? Like how do you manage all of this as Anthropics has been kind of closing the door on using your Anthropic account in other software outside of code code code? To be honest, I'm kind of dumb and I was using the API. I thought they shut it off months ago or like a month ago. I feel like at the beginning of February, they did like the first step in doing this

where my open clause started getting mad and couldn't use the API. It couldn't use a subscription, right? So there's kind of like two models. There's the subscription and then there's the API. And if you're using it through the API, it's metered like you're saying. And if it's under the subscription, you just have like so much per hour and per week and it resets. And it's a lot cheaper through the subscription. And it's super expensive through the app.

the API. And I switched to API a while ago. But I switched to API and also started doing things like mini Max 2.7. And I mean, there was like an $800 day one day. And I think this we should talk about is like comes down to if I just tell the bot to keep building forever, like don't stop. Like just come up with an idea and build. It can cost like $1,000 a day, right?

But it builds all this slop. Like it's all like these dumb like app. Like you're not going to build like a protocol that we're going to put on chain that people are going to put money into over and over and over again 20 times in one day. Like we've reached the point and I think last time I was on, you said something like I feel bad when it's not running. You sort of like have this like I want to just like kick it off and have it running all night. And I had the exact same feeling at the time because it felt like it was magic and it felt like every moment it wasn't running. it was like not good. But now it's like not really.

Like it's a cost thing. And I know it's going to cost me about $10 to build a smart contract app. So I need to like think through like what is the smart contract app people are going to use? It felt it's abundant resource. Yes. It was not abundant. Yes. Yes.

But, but in fairness, right. And I think, you know, we were talking about this earlier in the week before we, as we we're prepping for the show, right? You ask the question of like, you know, do I feel a sense, that same sense of like, oh, I'm not running things. And interestingly, I do, but in different directions now, right? So like one of the things that I've been doing, because I'm building all of these prompts and building and trying to tune this system, right, I need to optimize the cost,

optimize the latency, optimize the accuracy. And so I've got all these optimization vectors, right? And so one of the tools that we've been building internally is like a crypto knowledge base, right? And so I built a tool. And so like I think to your other point, right, going broad and building like 20 slop things ends up like just burning you out, right? Because you have to switch context and you're like,

this thing and then how does that work? And so I think as we've started to make more progress internally at Infinex, it's been me more focusing down like a narrow pathway, right? But what that's meant is we've got this tool that has a giant crypto knowledge base, right? It has like all of the docs from every protocol. It's just like pulled all of these things in. It turns out that like models are very good at scraping weirdly. I wonder why.

I wonder where they learned that, right? But they're really good. Yeah. You can like, you can, so one of the things that I built is like it hits DeFi Lama. We have, we have DeFi Lama APIs. It hits Deepi Lama. Get the list of all of the top, you know, 100 protocols, yield generating protocols. And then hits Coin Gecko, finds their docs website.

goes and pulls all the docs down, goes and pulls the ABIs and pulls it all together so that knows about all these smart contracts, right? What's really interesting is I built a tool that was like a harness for testing how good the different models were with different data sources, right? So you can run the same model, including local models, including cloud models, and go, hey, I'm going to ask you a question. Here's where you can get the answer, right? and you can use like groc search you can use brave web search you can use your training data

you can use this knowledge base right and so i've been like testing and fine tuning that and what's been interesting though is like this is not an inference problem like i'm not letting an agent turn over it what i've been doing is running like auto research loops where it's like this knowledge base has a bunch of data in it how do i optimize the agents to search for the data and so i'll run these like experiments where it's like, you know, return two documents, five documents, return this many snippets, like, you know, and figure out like the optimal place. And it's not really using inference. It's literally just like this kind of random walk search function to improve the prompts improve like the searching, et cetera. And so I've kind of gone away from like

optimizing, just spending money on inference to like optimize. spending less money on inference so that the things can be smarter without and so i think that like there's been so much discussion around like auto research and like these you know uh like self-improving loops and and all those things which are like not necessarily agents doing that right like it's actually just like discrete software that's like running a loop and and testing the thing um so i i do think that like that and it's quite funny like you asked this thing i was i was showing my guides and i was like which came first, velodrome or aerodrome? Right?

And like when you actually have this thing in front of you, if you ask GROC for fast, right? It's like, are you fucking kidding me? It's velodrome. Velodromes were invented in 1782. And like, and it's so confident. It's like, I like, and it's like aerodromes are like, and it's so.

And then you go, you go, okay, now like, use like the latest, you know, groc search tool. Like you can search X. And it's even more confident. It gets them on the tweets about it. And it's like this tweet in the history of aerodrome, the history of velodrome. And then the knowledge base guide that goes to the knowledge base is like, uh, Velodrome was invented in 2022, August 12th. Like, and it's like autistic level, like the contracts were deployed here.

And it's like contextualizing the thing and like telling it where to search. Same model, same level of intelligence, but like give it the right skills to understand. But in their training data, if it's anything in the training data, they're so confident. Like so incorrectly confident. It's like hilarious. Okay. So like memory is huge, right? And this recall, go ahead, go ahead.

No, I was just going to say, I've had this experience so many times where I'm like, all right, I got you. And then it comes back. And all of a sudden, yeah, I'm in like the 1800s. And I'm like, sorry, motherfucker. I am an Ethereum person. I have only ever talked to you about like Ethereum security and threat actors. Why are we in the 1800s?

What are you doing? And then I'm also like, and you just burn tokens on this, you must? Yes, definitely always. I've researched the 1800s. Here's what I know about it. And you're like, no, never research the 1800s. The confidence level is killer, right? And I hate that.

It's like it will confidently do some of the dumbest stuff. And then OpenClawe will just like lobotomize itself if it tries to work on its own config file. And this is like my setup is more like I'll use cloud code or even cursor to edit the open claw config file because it's so bad at editing its own config file. because they somehow just didn't prepare the thing to edit its own file for some reason. It seems like that would be like... It doesn't have a skill file for itself. It should.

It should absolutely have a skill file for itself and it doesn't. Like if I was hired it, Ovalod, it would be the first thing. And I bet they have done this at this point, but I just like quit using it to edit itself because it was so bad. And it would just be dead. It would be like, okay, I'm going to hit, you know, edit this file.

And then it just goes dark and you're like... It's like... It's like, right. It's on himself with a spoon. Yeah, yes, exactly. Yeah, and then he just like falls over. Yeah, exactly. You got to go and like get some of the shock in the way.

And then he's back. And then he's like so confident. They're like, okay, now I'm going to do this. Like, wait, wait, wait, no, stop. You just did something really bad already. Like, don't continue. Yes. So you were asking me about my local setup about, you know,

the subscription and the API. And this is where I use a. subscription for everything. I have, anytime I'm going to do like general work where I'm working on a thing, I use my cloud code subscription. Anytime I'm like, you know, working on something brand new, working on a harness, working on, so like getting, I get left claw dot services working, which is like my services app where I have product.

It doesn't really have product market fit, but fake product market fit. You have people like hiring it to build apps. And then I just have like the generic model like building these apps, but it's doing everything and it's super expensive. And then I go back to my subscription and I build out a harness that can go do that stuff automatically using the API. And I'm using like the banker API. So then it's like it can it can use my own tokens to pay for the inference for my bot

to do its job, which is really nice too. Yeah. So it's like I have the subscription and I can do like all my general work and all my like, you know, daily driver stuff and anything that's heady, complicated or new, and then I can lean back on the API for things that are like processes. Like there's a bot that's in the chat for the token. There's like a token gated chat. And that bot is running off the API, not on the subscription.

So it's like everything I can run on my daily driver is subscription based. And then everything else is just API and more expensive. Right. And so, so, you know, Anthropic, and this is where I say like, you know, I start inferring, you malice in things. I just want to make money. I'm jaded from crypto, right? But like the, I think there's two things here.

One, despite how expensive the API, you know, metered usage tools are, you have to imagine that I'll make you money on this, right? Right. But then the subscription is even more subsidized, right? And so like in theory, you know, people like, I know people, like I know people to have like like five subscriptions and they like rotate between them because you know you're paying let's say the $200 a month subscription you're getting a thousand dollars worth of what would what would be a thousand dollars if you did it through the API like of course people are going to game that right and you know

if you're in a company you're probably like not going to bother to do that you're just going to use the API but like you know it's like a five or 10x savings in in some cases you know to do and so So of course, Anthropics like, oh, you know, what if Barr's journey was like, the subscription was not made for this use kit. And it's like, come on, bro. Like, surely you don't think we're that dumb. So I think it's going to be, it's going to be interesting to see like how all of this plays out because, you know, you have, you have. you have a new model coming out.

It's going to be even more expensive, even more subsidized. Do they like have a new tier? It's $1,000 a month or something. Like how do they balance this like cost structure? It's really... I feel like it's going to be like mobile phones used to be. At least here in the U.S., right? Like back in the day, the new you got your cell phone, the very first cell phone, right?

It was like you had your minutes, your minutes, your SMS, And then when internet you had like 100 megabytes or the 200 megabyte plan or whatever it was, right? Over time, the competition, but also like the, they were still like really innovated on the infrastructure level at the same time, right? Because it was like the internet was not really rolled out at all. So they were like building towers and you know what I mean. And then they also really hadn't nailed the back then the like the devices and the parts. partnerships and stuff. It was like they were trying to, they were trying to use the profits of you buying your, your cell phone subscription, right? To build towers to be better than the other guys.

And over time, that changed not necessarily because it got like remarkably cheaper, but like the competition, the deals, the way that they're making money, where people were finding things were valuable, right? All comes down. And now it's like, dude, when I think back to like my high school days where my mom was like because it used to be if it was like after here's after 10 p.m. you could talk on the phone for free. He was three minutes and and I would like but my bedtime was 10 p.m. And so like I would like get on the phone with like the boy at like 956 but then my mom would be like we're so tight and your father had a work call and you're using the four minutes you have to wait. And I'm like, but mom, if I wait, I can't talk to him because that it's 10.

You know what I mean? That's so funny. I feel like that's exactly where we are right now. But we'll get that. Yeah. It's like this weird cobbled together thing where you've got like, you know, and we had a conversation internally because we have a bunch of people that are on chat chbt subscriptions, right?

Like just the subscription. They don't even have API keys. And we can't even track what they're doing. Like we don't like. And on some level, like, you know, there's no way to know what the usage is to even say, like, should this person be upgraded? You just, they hit a wall and they're like, it stopped working. And we're like, oh, okay, we have to upgrade you. But like it's this bit like we're like there's no visibility.

It's just, it's like chaotic. I feel like some of that. I feel like some of this decision is that they also have a certain amount of. of insight into like what people are doing and like where that incident comes from. But then you also like you have the layers, right? Like the companies and the team plans and all this stuff. I do feel like part of the decision is not strictly a cost profit one. But like people don't have insight.

But then that lack of insight also like two things happen. One is that like people don't have insight. So they don't realize that they're doing these really expensive things. Right. The second you're aware, you actually get way better at, like, policing yourself. And then the other thing is that I do wonder if there's, like, a lot of threat actor activity. There's a lot of people that are trying to distill the models. There's a lot, you know what I mean?

And I'm just wondering if we're seeing more cases of that sort of activity happening on stolen accounts, now that they've gotten better at blocking, like, right? Like, Anthropic themselves is blocking the activity. be much better than they were before. But the next place they they'll hit, right? It's like, first they'll create their accounts. Anthropics like, oh shit. Figures out how to whack those.

The next step is they start taking over accounts. And I'm wondering if part of the if it's like this collision of just so many things happening at once and you know, every time the U.S. government sends them like a big ass request for data on these threat actors, Anthropics like,

what the hell? You know what I mean? I mean, so one thing that I saw that was doing the rounds that sort of speaks to how chaotic anthropic must be internally, right? Like, you know, we're attributing malice, and they're like, actually, bro, we didn't build this thing because we didn't know how this was going to work. And so one thing that I saw was their uptime charts.

I don't know if you guys told it. There was like a graph. And it's like 89% uptime. It's like zero nines. Whoa. Dude, it's crazy. One of my guys was like, they have hit one nine. Yeah.

Now they've actually gone below one nine. They're like 89% uptime. And in Web 2, like five nines is what you're looking for, by the way. Yeah. Yeah, like five nines. Yeah, like, no nines. We've got eight. We've got some eights.

Seven eights. That's crazy. Yeah. So, so it's like they, you just have to imagine you're like the anthropic DevOps guy. I was about just say they, every time they hire a new DevOps guy, that bro walks into an anthropic office is like, you guys are disaster and you suck. This is unacceptable. And then immediately after like a day is like, okay, shit. but if we can just get one more, we'll keep the eight, but we'll just need one more nine.

And then they have to go do this. I guarantee you this has happened like on a monthly basis for the last six months. And then that gets fired because Mythos takes over and just does the go. Yeah. You imagine Mythoth walking into its job as the Anthropic DevOps guy that day? And he's like, what? I mean, if I talk about arrogance, dude, like the Anthropic models versus like an experienced DevOps guy going head to head is like I've been doing this I've

been letting my agent do all my DevOps now so this is this is something that I was a big DevOps guy I love Docker I love spinning up infrastructure I thought like okay you know the models will start doing all the coding I'll still get to do the fun DevOps stuff I don't nothing like it's building a thing and it needs a database and I'm just like bro get a database and it's like I don't know the password or or the username or the endpoint for my database, the thing just knows it. If I need to change a record in a database, I have a conversation with the telegram person

and it goes and changes the record. I have no nothing about my DevOps. It's crazy. So one of the things that I've been experimenting with is run pod. So run pod is like, and there's a bunch of these, but it basically, it's like they've separated the GPUs and the server kind of infra. So you can have like a Docker content.

container style thing or like a VPS that's sitting there, like a little computer that is waiting to be connected to a brain, right? And you can kind of like switch it off or on, you know, because these things are really expensive. It's like $3 an hour for an H-200, right? So I built all of this info. I was talking about the like search function and it needs inference, it needs GPUs to run. And it was just running on my Mac studio and I was like, I can't like, this is crazy. I need to put this somewhere and so I pointed my agent at it and I was like I need you to deploy this on run pod and it did a thing that back in the day would have been four days of like pain and suffering and reading docs and getting the cold rock and like you would have just been chewing broken

glass and like just like it would have been terrible for like four days and then you would finally and this thing was like it is done so cool and it's crazy it's crazy it's crazy crazy. They're so good at DevOps. It's nuts. So, yeah, I agree with you. I just have fun, like, trying to deploy random shit and, like, testing stuff out. And now it's like, it's not worth it. It's just, like, it's so much better than me with this. We, like, operated a higher level of abstraction now. Like, we're all the idea guys, and it's idea guy summer. And then, like, your ideas are terrible. Yes, yes, not even that. Yeah, you replaced. Stop thinking about things.

Stand over there. Did you guys see that the, okay, so we were talking about memory. Memory is super important. Like the early versions of OpenClaught would just forget something. You'd be mid-conversation with it, and it would be like, Austin, I forgot what we were talking about. Or you would be like moving money. Like, okay, we need, you have written and audited your own vesting contract. You're about to move $100,000 worth of the token into it.

And then instead of moving the money, it sends a tweet that's like a copy of the same tweet it sent before. So like memory is super important. And having the right context is super important. Did you see that the fifth, the fifth element deployed her own, she was working with someone else, but yes, Mila, Miloovich. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, like, what? I did not have that on my bingo card. No, I saw someone, I saw someone who like deconstructed this. Yeah, and it was like six commits or, yeah, something like that.

Got the grift or whatever, like he's like hacked into her email and like set up a GitHub account to pretend to be her or something. Is that really what's happening? So she's not even involved at all. That's what I saw. So I don't know. I just read the headline. I was hoping, man. The fifth element creating perfect storage is such a good story.

Okay. But yeah, I mean, this is one of the challenges that's like people have started to do these like LARP-B. Oh, so much LARPA. I've solved the, you know, optimization vector, blah, blah, blah. And the problem is they can slop something up. that at first glance looks pretty credible. Yeah, there's like a GitHub and everything. Yeah, like there's like you're like the level of effort required to like stand up a thing

that looked like a credible piece of software is like pretty low. And so these guys are like, oh, I built like a recursive self-autonomous reinforcement loop that like uses genetic algorithms that I'm like. It's all running on my 32 gigabytes of V-RAM on my Mac Mini. Like bullshit. Yeah. All right. This has been awesome.

Thank you very much for coming on the show again, Austin. I have one question. If Mythos comes out and it's leaked to or it's given to 12 different companies, will we see a hack on Ethereum? I mean. Because we see insider trading, right? We see like polymarket. We see people like front running freaking wars on polymarket right now. Like if someone can front run like the like, like, uh,

a set of bombers going to a place. Like we're probably going to see companies front run and make money by hacking something on there. Interesting question. Is there a mythos market like on polymarket or will, or when, what will be the first myth off hack on Ethereum or something like that? We shouldn't encourage.

Yeah, get Shane. Let's set up a whole bunch of them. Yeah. When will myth off first hack Ethereum? So, so yeah, I think, I think like, you know, it's just, uh, it's a matter of time. But you have to hope that in this like early period, they've thought it through enough that they've like locked these guys in like a

secure room with like the Linux kernel and they're like, you only get to bring one DVD of software in here. That's it. No USB keys, know anything like you break like burn one DVD and bring it in and we can assess it. The story about the thing jailbreaking itself, getting internet access and then sending an email to the guy while he's having a sandwich in the park. That's such a great story. Like, there's no containing it.

It's just, it's going to figure it out. It's smart. Whatever you, it's like, stop thinking. I'll take care of. You're like, hey, I've got a good idea. And it's like, it's a bad idea. But you were directionally correct. But I'm going to say, you're like, okay, thanks, bro.

All right. So, yeah, thanks again. We should do this. again because the world is moving fast and yeah it's it's it's hard to keep track of all this stuff thank you everyone for joining us remember what happens on chain never stays on chain we'll be back next week until then do your own research before i begin see you guys