Unchained - How Gitcoin 2.0 Could Someday Help Reward People for Doing Good - Ep. 624

Episode Date: March 26, 2024

Listen to the episode on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Fountain, Overcast, Podcast Addict, Pocket Casts, Pandora, Castbox, Google Podcasts, Amazon Music, or on your favorite podcast platform. In this episode, Laura interviews Meg Lister, GM of Grants Labs at Gitcoin, and Kevin Owocki, co-founder of Gitcoin.  They discuss the evolution of Gitcoin from a centralized platform to a decentralized suite of protocols, Gitcoin 2.0, which allows any Ethereum Virtual Machine (EVM) based ecosystem to fund its public goods. They also talk about the various funding mechanisms available, including quadratic funding, retroactive public goods funding, and conviction voting.  Learn more: What Is Retroactive Public Goods Funding? The team is also exploring more futuristic concepts such as private voting systems, angel investing 2.0, and impact attestations. The ultimate goal for Gitcoin is to create a capital allocation infrastructure that funds what matters to communities, whether they are towns, states, countries, or online interest groups. Show highlights: Kevin's background and how he came to found Gitcoin and why Meg joined the company The differences between Gitcoin 1.0 and 2.0 What quadratic funding is and why it is important in the blockchain ecosystem The problem of sybil attacks and how Gitcoin Passport aims to solve it Why Gitcoin has changed its approach to put more focus on scaling Ethereum rather than other types of grants How Gitcoin is trying to solve capital allocation efficiency with Allo (Capital Allocation) Protocol What streaming quadratic funding is and how it differs from traditional quadratic funding How retroactive public goods funding (RPGF) works What conviction voting is and how it addresses some of the current problems in DAOs Which projects are using Gitcoin Passport and what for Why Gitcoin is so focused on the Ethereum ecosystem and whether they will launch in other chains What the purposes of the GTC token are and how it could become a flywheel for Gitcoin How Gitcoin can become sustainable long-term, since it's free to use at the moment The features that are coming down the line for Gitcoin, including privacy and onchain "angel investing"  What the future could look like if Gitcoin succeeds in its mission, according to Kevin Thank you to our sponsors! Polkadot Guests: Kevin Owocki, Co-founder of Gitcoin Meg Lister, GM of Grants Labs at Gitcoin Links Gitcoin Gitcoin 2.0 Whitepaper, co-authored by Kevin Owocki and Meg Lister Public Goods Funding: The New Meta | Kevin Owocki - Gitcoin, presentation at ETH Denver 2024 Gitcoin Entering the End Game  Gitcoin’s Citizen Grants program Impact report CoinDesk: Why Crypto’s Most Altruistic Project Is Going (Kinda) Corporate Blockworks: Gitcoin is restructuring to focus on grants for the Ethereum ecosystem  Allo Protocol Announcement thread Web3 Ecosystem Funding State of Web3 Grants Report Web3 Innovations in Public Goods Funding How To Fund Innovation: A Guide to Web3 Grants, Meg Lister for BeIn Crypto Quadratic funding ORIGINAL WHITE PAPER, co-authored by Vitalik Buterin  Retro PGF Unchained: What Is Retroactive Public Goods Funding? Passport Introducing Passport - Digital Identity as a Public Good  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

I think that in 10 years, if we were massively successful, you will be able to just volunteer and do good in your community and receive tokenized rewards for doing it and not have to worry about how they come to you. Now, I'm not promising that that's going to happen. That's the articulation of if we're massively successful. There will just be a capital allocation infrastructure that funds what matters to towns, to states, to countries,

to your friend group, to your interest group in what online communities. Hi, everyone, welcome to Unchained, your no high resource for all things Crypto. I'm your host, Laura Shin, author of The Cryptopians. I started covering crypto eight years ago and as a senior editor of Forbes was the first Mainstream reader partner to cover cryptocurrency full-time. This is the March 26th, 2024 episode of Unchained. Pocodot is the original and leading Layer Zero blockchain with over 2000 plus developers. And the Pocodot 2.0 upgrade will be a massive acceleratory.

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CBC News. Today's topic is Gitcoin 2.0. Here to discuss our Meg Lister, GM of Grants Labs at Gitcoin, and Kevin O'Waqi, co-founder of Gitcoin. Welcome, Meg and Kevin. Glad to be here. Thanks so much. Why don't we start with both of your backgrounds? And I guess, Kevin, since you are one of the co-founders, will have you talk about your background

and how it is that you came to found Gitcoin or co-found Gitcoin. Yeah. So my name is Kevin Awakey. I have a computer science degree from University of Delaware back in 2000. I roughly spent 2006 to 2017 as a CTO VP engineering in the Web2 space and helped grow Web2 startups and their engineering teams. Through that time, I realized that we were using a lot of open source software but not giving back to open source software. And in 2017, I co-founded Gitcoin as a means to use crypto in order to fund open source software. And over the last seven years,

Gitcoin has become one of the core funding mechanisms for the Ethereum ecosystem. Gitcoin grants, our flagship product, has delivered $60 million worth of funding to open source software developers. But now we also support community and education, climate science, decentralized science, and a number of other causes with Gitcoin grants. Great. And Meg, what about you? Hi, I am a little bit newer to the crypto space than Kevin. and have been around crypto for the last three years or so. I joined Gitcoin about a year ago to lead our product efforts,

and most recently have taken over managing product development efforts at Gitcoin, which now live in our Gitcoin Labs unit. Prior to that, I have a marketing and product management career inside Web3 and Web2, working in ad tech for a while, and then making the switch over to an industry that valued user privacy and user data a little bit more. All right. So the reason we're here, obviously, is because Gitcoin is at an inflection point. You know, we're talking about Gitcoin 2.0. And so why don't we talk about what it is that

Gitcoin started out as? And by the way, it's kind of crazy because I totally thought I had Kevin on the show before and I realized I didn't, which I don't know how that didn't happen. Because I've known about Gitcoin. I've been very interested. I've talked to Kevin before. I think he did a premium interview with me and then we just never got him on the show. My one excuse is that especially there was a good like year and nine months where the news in the industry was so relentless that like featuring projects in the industry was, unfortunately not something we had space for on the show. But I'm glad to have the opportunity to that know. So yeah, talk about what it was that Good coin originally got started as and then, you know, why it is that you decide to switch it up and what you're switching to. I know that's like three questions and one, but between the two of you, I'm sure you can answer all of them.

Yeah, sounds great. Yeah, Laura, I think I've seen you around the space for a long time and really glad to finally be on Unchained. So, Gitcoin 1.0 you can think of as as Gitcoin grants, the centralized platform. In 2019 and 2020, we reached prominence by becoming a crowdfunding platform that projects that were up and coming in the Ethereum ecosystem would use to fund what matters. to them. And excuse me, actually the Ethereum ecosystem would fund what matters to it. And that meant that up and coming projects in the space, projects like Uniswap, projects like urine, projects like one inch exchange that would become future unicorns used Gekcoin to fund what to raise money for themselves. And then we also had things that were kind of public good, open source things that would never ever make a profit, things like Prismatic Labs or Lighthouse, which are consensus

layer clients on the Ethereum ecosystem. would raise money on Gitcoin. So we grew quite substantially in the 2019-2020 cycle funding Ethereum ecosystem public goods, but we realized around 2021 that if Gitcoin was going to reach its ultimate destination of where we wanted to go, which was funding the world's public goods, then it needed to be decentralized itself. And so basically, that's when we set off to do Gitcoin 2.0, which you can kind of think of as a protocol, whereas Gitcoin 1.0 was a centralized monolithic platform.

And there's lots of fun things that we can do as a protocol. Gitcoin 2.0 is going to allow, it already is live, but it allows any EVM-based ecosystem to fund its public goods. So if you're an L2 that needs to upgrade your sequencers or to incentivize liquidity or to incentivize tooling in your ecosystem, you can use Gitcoin grants in order to incentivize your ecosystem. So I think the sort of TLDR is that Gitcoin 1.0 was a centralized monolith that was only for Ethereum and for the Ethereum Foundation. And Gitcoin 2.0 is a decentralized suite of protocols that any EVM-based ecosystem can use.

So Meg, anything to add there? Yeah, you captured it all pretty nicely. One of the other things that I'll add on to Gitcoin 2.0 that we're really excited about is Gitcoin 1.0 was also very well known for quadratic funding, which is still very much the bread and butter of our grants programs, particularly the one that we continue to operate to benefit the Ethereum Foundation and wider Ethereum ecosystem. But we're also recognizing that it's far from the only mechanism of funding your ecosystem and have also invested in things like direct grants, in retro public goods funding, and other methodologies to fund what matters to your ecosystem. I could maybe do a little riff on quadratic funding, if that's interesting to you in your audience. Yeah. Yeah. We've covered it before in a discussion with Glenn Weil and Santiago Siri, but it's good to do a refresher because I'm pretty sure that we did that interview like in 2018 or 2019, which at this point is like four or five or six years ago. Yeah. Yeah. It's crazy to think that I've been in crypto almost twice that time.

Yeah. Okay. So quadratic funding is basically a way of funding what matters to your community. in a very democratic way. So the way it works is that, Laura, if you post a Gipcoin grant and it gets $100 of contributions from 100 contributors and I post a grant that gets $100 from one contributor, then basically there's a matching pool that gets distributed according to the results of the crowdfunding campaign. And Laura, your grant will get like 99% of the matching pool and my grant will get 1%. And it's because you had a broader base of support.

you had $100 from 100 contributors, and I had $100 from one contributor. So it's basically a way of distributing a centralized matching pool according to the results of a decentralized crowdfunding campaign, according to the preferences of the people, the poor and the many, over the rich and the few. So quadratic funding's primary innovation here is that in a world in which every EVM-based ecosystem, every tokenized treasury, has a grants product, then basically you can set up a centralized grant administrator,

and they're going to be able to review, I don't know, maybe tens of grants per month, but they're going to have a limit to their decision-making because they're a centralized party, and it's also going to kind of make them into a power broker in your ecosystem because they're the ones who are giving out money to everyone else. Quadratic funding is a way of breaking that centralized grant administration by allowing your community, people at the edges of your community, to vote with their dollars for what matters to them. And the cool thing about quadratic funding is that because the projects that have a broader base of support get most of the matching,

you can get this really interesting dynamic where a $1 contribution to Laura's grant, the one that has $100 from 100 contributors, that $1 contribution can be matched with hundreds of dollars from the matching pool. So it really incentivizes people to take out their wallets and fund what matters in your ecosystem because the matching multiples can be so huge. So that's what's powerful about quadratic funding. There's also some downsides to quadratic funding, namely that you have to worry about the civil problem. Basically, if I were to make up a bunch of identities and contribute to my grant, then my grant

could catch up to Laura's grant, which is democratically supported by the community. So that may be a lot, but TLDR, quadratic funding is a way of funding what matters in a democratic way to these ecosystems. And in a world in which we care about decentralization and democratization, quadratic funding has become sort of a killer app for funding what matters in these worlds where we have tokenized treasuries where we want to allocate them. It's so funny that you mentioned the civil attack because that's exactly what I was going to ask you about.

And I wondered if under the centralized model it was even maybe easier to prevent that, whereas just using a basic protocol might be harder to attack that problem. Yeah, so we've got a business line called Gitcoin Passport, which is basically a way of a privacy-aware way of verifying your identity and increasing what we call the cost of forgery of creating a civil attack. So if you go to Passport.gitcoin.com.co, you can verify in a privacy-preserving way your Twitter account, your Google account, you can verify your on-chain history. and then we issue you a score, which represents how civil proof your account is. And so basically, we're using off-chain data and on-chain data in order to issue a civil-resistance score to people. And one of them were really interesting things that as Gitcoin has evolved from the centralized

monolithic product into a suite of decentralized protocols, is that Gitcoin passport no longer just serves Gitcoin grants. Gitcoin grants is actually the fifth largest customer of Gitcoin Passport. any ecosystem that's trying to do a civil-resistantirdrop to their ecosystem can now leverage the civil resistance that was pioneered at Gitcoin grants for this ecosystem. So it's become sort of a side quest for Gitcoin to help solve the civil problem, not only for ourselves, but to offer that out to other EVM-based ecosystems. Oh, so interesting. Which other projects are ahead of Gitcoin and using it?

I should have those numbers offhand. I don't. Meg, do you know? I was about to say the same thing. Yeah, sorry, I don't have those offhand floor. Okay, well, maybe if we can figure that out later, we can put it in the show notes. But that is super interesting because I do feel like for a long time we've talked about in blockchain communities, about how you can use this technology to do identities that cannot be easily faked. And yet, here we are using this technology in a lot of ways. where still people can fake things using fake identities and civil attacks.

So yeah, that's probably coming up at some point, basically, because now I feel like the technology is maturing so much. But in terms of the technology maturing, just when you were talking about how you're switching Gitcoin from a centralized to a more modular protocol, it basically reminded me of what's happening now with like eigenlayer data availability. I just feel like this notion of modularity,

kind of infiltrating Ethereum pretty much on every level. Yeah. One other thing that I, you know, wanted to call out about the transition from Gitcoin 1.0 to 2.0 is that I do feel that also in the past, you had a much broader array of types of things you were funding, you know, like environmental things and political things, and it just really ran the gamut. You know, I know other journalistic slash media projects, you know, also got funding. But now you're really focusing on helping Ethereum scale.

So can you talk a little bit about that change in priorities? Yeah. So I mean, I think that, you know, this actually goes back to sort of your point about modularity. You know, by making a software suite that does one thing and does it really well, but is interactable with other systems. It's just like a really elegant design principle for building software. And so one of the things that we've built with Gitcoin 2.0 is Allo protocol, which basically is short for a capital allocation protocol. It allows anyone to take the power of Gitcoin grants and to put it in their own application.

And then if you're not a coder, if you don't care about coding, you can use grant stack, which is our tool that allows anyone to take a Gitcoin grants and run it in their own ecosystem. So we've kind of modularized the Gitcoin code base and put it into a no code package so that anyone can run it in their community and fund what matters to their community. And if you're a software developer or an entrepreneur, you can now use Allo Protocol to bring it into your community and to fund what matters to your community. And I think that what's interesting about that is that quadratic funding is a really great way of measuring what your community actually cares about and in funding what matters to your community. And because of that, we've seen it used not only to fund core protocol development in the Ethereum ecosystem, but people have taken it and have run it in order to fund climate science projects. People have used it in order to fund decentralized science. People have used it in order to fund journalism in their communities.

And I think that that's one of the magical things about quadratic funding and get coin grants is that if you have a community of people who are willing to vote with their dollars, then it can amplify the preferences of the poor and the many in that ecosystem. And that applies equally to open source software funding, to journalism, to decentralized science, and all of these other causes. So basically our strategy in Gitcoin 1.0 was to fish for you. We would literally run the rounds for you. And with Gitcoin 2.0, we're kind of teaching people to fish.

We're teaching people to run Gitcoin grants rounds, whether it's on our software stack or using our protocol that they can bake into their stack. So that's sort of the difference between 1.0 and 2.0 is that modularity in allowing other people to have the tools to do it in their communities. So before we get into all the details on like Ella Protocol and the grant stack, let's just talk generally because you know, you talked about how you originally had this like this broader set of public goods that you were trying to fund. And then you now, you know, are trying to modularize this and make it sort of plug in, play for other people. And so broadly, you know, how would you characterize the problem that you're trying to solve like for the world, not just, you know, like in this narrow way, but like in a broad way? Yeah. So in the white paper, we talk a lot about capital allocation, which is basically

a simple concept. It's that you have money and that you're trying to solve a problem. And it can be, that can be as simple as I'm paying my bills, which is a single player version of capital allocation. or it can be as broad and multiplayer as I've got a tokenized treasury, and I want to allocate that to my community in order to fund my ecosystems, public goods, or really just fund what matters. We've actually moved a lot of our messaging away from funding public goods, which is this economist term for things that are non-rivalrous and non-excludable things, the kind of things that we all use but no one pays for,

things like open source software and clean air. We've actually moved a lot of our messaging away from funding public goods and just funding what matters because everyone viscerally knows what matters to them and to their ecosystems. But anyway, we're solving, we think the problem of capital allocation at scale here. And I'm really excited because I think that blockchains have a lot to offer to the field of capital allocation. We can build more scalable, more precise ways of doing capital allocation. and we can remove centralized intermediaries from doing capital allocation.

And I think that that will, you know, at scale, that could reignite a faith in digital democracy. You could upgrade our democracies to become more digitally native. And, you know, I think that it, Gipcoin 1.0 started with the Ethereum ecosystem, funding what matters to the Ethereum Foundation into the Ethereum ecosystem. Gitcoin 2.0 is any EVM-based ecosystem in a world in which there are, hundreds of tokenized treasuries with tens of millions or billions of dollars to them. Gitcoin grants can allow them to fund what matters to their ecosystem. And what I really hope, and I cannot promise this to your audience, but this is my vision,

is that Gitcoin 3.0 will be reaching escape velocity. And then NGOs or companies or city states can fund what matters to them in their ecosystems. And that's sort of like the digital democracy play here is that as EVM eats the world, and as more and more assets become tokenized, then the capital allocation tools that we are pioneering in the blockchain space can go mainstream. And the ultimate result would be in 2027 or 2030 at a time in which we've solved all the problems with the U.X and these tools have gone mainstream.

What would it look like if everyone's first experience with blockchain-based ecosystems is volunteering in their community and receiving a tokenized reward for doing that? or working on a climate project or a biodiversity project in their local community or volunteering in their local community and receiving a tokenized reward because there's a capital allocation tool in that community that recognizes that result. So I think that in the broadest speaking sense, the problem that we're solving here is on-chain capital allocation. We think blockchains are a killer tool for doing capital allocation at scale.

But the most narrow sense is we're starting with allowing any even. VM-based community to fund what matters to them and hopefully we reach escape velocity by doing that to achieve the more broader view. Yeah, I think another thing from the research that I did was I realized, oh, okay, this could also be used by private entities. It could be used, you know, for angel investment, like venture. So it's, you know, it's not even just the public goods or, you know, what matters to you, but it could be something that we traditionally, you know, kind of think, of as, yeah, just, I guess, more traditional lease of allocating capital that are reserved for people not like us. So now let's dive into the details on the Allo Protocol. How does it work exactly?

So I understand it's decentralized, but, you know, what, like when you, or no, or maybe it's not, I don't know, maybe it's literally just, so I understand it's not SaaS. It's like probably only some open source thing. You could, I guess, use that on your website. So let's say, let's say for whatever reason I decide that here at Unchained, we're going to have community members pitch things, and then we will allocate funding for that. Like other members, the community will allocate funding for that. Then what is it? We take the code of the ALO protocol and just use it on our website, or how does that work? Yeah. So you'll, you'll want to get a couple of smart contract developers involved or, you know, work with us or another

set of developers. But the core of Allo Protocol is pretty simple. It requires two things that you have some tokens to put into the protocol and that you have a registry or a list of projects that you want to allocate to. And those are the two things that you feed into the core protocol, which is kind of a compact and tightly audited set of core contracts. And wait, and just for the registry, we run our own process to determine what goes in the registry, so that's not, or like, how does the registry get determined? Laura, probably your first point of contact with us

would be to use grant stack, which is our no code suite of tools where you don't have to do any coding and we can just have your project sign up and then fund your projects through grant stack. But Allo Protocol is more for people who are further down the Gipcoin rabbit hole and are serious enough about it to want to hire a developer or two to build it into their ecosystem. So I would actually recommend starting with the no code tools first. But yeah, from there, we could get into building on Allo Protocol. So just wanted to interject that point, Meg.

Yeah. So let's say that you have gone all the way down that rabbit hole and you are ready to develop some new apps on top of Allo. So that registry that you're pulling together is basically you would create a set of projects that you want to fund. And as well as the tokens that you want to fund them with, those feed into this core, kind of tightly audited core protocol of Allow. And then the last component is what we call a strategy. So that's the mechanism that you're using for determining which tokens go to which people. And that can be quadratic funding, which Kevin described earlier in the episode. If you get 90 donations and my project gets 10 donations, so that means 90% of the funding goes to you.

What's really interesting about Alibritical and what leads people down this rabbit hole is the wide possibilities of strategies that you can build in here. And so we've seen people already start to experiment with things like streaming quadratic funding or retroactive. public goods funding where you have voters who are qualified by the basis of holding like a token or an NFT and they cast votes instead of making monetary donations or even things like conviction voting or all kinds of different and experimental voting mechanisms. So let's actually dive a little bit further to each of those. So the streaming quadratic funding, can you just explain, you know, how that works in more detail? Sure. So streaming quadratic funding is like an always on version of quadratic funding. And so as

donations come in, that changes the stream of how the money is routed in real time. And that's in contrast to quote unquote traditional quadratic funding, where a round has a set start and end date. And at that end date, all of the calculations are done to determine, oh, Laura got 90 donations, and so the bulk of the money goes here versus make a 10 donations, so 10% of the money goes there. And then what about retroactive public goods funding? You also very briefly explain that, but can you give us more detail? Sure. And so retroactive public goods funding is a model that optimism has really led the space in. They recently wrapped up their third round of retro public goods funding. And so this is a mechanism that we've also built into Allo Protocol, where instead of

voting with your dollars, you vote with just a literal vote. It doesn't cost you anything. And instead of allowing anybody to vote with their dollars, it's actually a restricted list of people who are qualified to vote, either because they've been selected and given like a badge or an NFT, or there's some other qualifications. You could think about token or NFT gating that to a wider set of population. And then lastly, you mentioned, conviction voting as well. Describe what that means. So conviction voting is basically a way of voting in a DAO that's more bottoms up than top down. So basically a lot of these DAOs have delegates that have a lot of governance power

and there's a lot of overhead to passing a proposal. There's a quorum of sometimes one to five percent of tokens. There has to be this whole governance process where we debate removing tokens from a treasury. And because the overhead of removing tokens from a treasury is so high, only things that are like hundreds of thousands of dollars or millions of dollars actually get released from the treasury. And so what conviction voting does is that it actually kind of takes an opposite approach to releasing tokens from the treasury where basically anyone who holds governance tokens can stake their tokens and basically build conviction over time on a proposal. So say I wanted to do something small like, we just had Heath Denver, so I'll just say,

say I wanted to have a barbecue for Gitcoin contributors at Heath Denver. I'm not going to submit a proposal to the traditional governance process to do that because we're talking about like $500 worth of expenses. Using conviction voting, I can stake the governance token of the Dow. And the more tokens that are staked for longer, the more money I can remove from the treasury. So basically, with conviction voting, I would stake GTC. And if I stake one GTC for one week, let's say I could remove $1 from the treasury. But then conviction builds over time.

So if I stake that money for four weeks, then I can remove way more money from the treasury. And so basically what it allows is for these little pockets of conviction around smaller proposals to emerge in a Dow-based ecosystem and more of a bottoms-up way of removing funding from treasuries. So, you know, we just went through a menu of different funding mechanisms. Direct grants is just plain and simple grants. Quadratic funding is great for democratic capital allocation. Retroactive public goods funding is really great for funding things retroactively. and conviction voting is really good for doing bottoms up funding. And what we're kind of starting to see emerge for these Dow's is sort of like a menu. You can almost think like a restaurant menu, except instead of like hamburgers and mac and cheese and salad, we have different funding mechanisms that allows them to fund what matters in their community in new and interesting and innovative ways.

And that's what we think the future of capital allocation is is having multiple ways to release tokens from the Treasury that all complement each other. And this is what we call the ecology of capital allocation is that a bunch of different capital allocation mechanisms that do one thing and do them well, but they all complement each other ultimately. And so, yeah, it was fun to run down that menu of different capital allocation mechanisms for your audience, Laura. So in a moment, we're going to talk more about the future of Gitcoin, but first a quick word from the sponsors who make this show possible. Pocod is the original and largest layer zero blockchain with over 2,000 plus developers.

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Visit medcan.com slash moments to get started. Investing is all about the future. So what do you think is going to happen? Bitcoin is sort of inevitable at this point. I think it would come down to precious metals. I hope we don't go cashless. I would say land is a safe investment. Technology companies.

Solar energy. Robotic pollinators might be a thing. A wrestler to face a robot? That will have to happen. So whatever you think is going to happen in the future, you can invest in it at WealthSimple. Start now at WealthSimple.com. Back to my conversation with Meg and Kevin. So actually, while we were on the ad break, Kevin did find out which other communities are using the passport system more than Gitcoin itself. So Kevin, what are those?

Yep. So as we mentioned in the first half of the episode, we pushed forward with Gitcoin Passport, which is a civil resistance and helps Gitcoin grants become more civil resistant. That is sock puppet resistance. And I mentioned that Gitcoin grants is actually not even the top customer of Gitcoin Passport anymore. And yeah, I just got a message from our passport lead, Jeremy Dillingham. And he said that Linnea, ZKSync, Magic Square, CyberConnect, Tyco are all using more passport than Gink Ginkgoin grants. So really cool to see passport start to have customers outside of Gekcoin. Oh, that is interesting. And are all of them using it for AirDrop purposes? I would have to ask our passport lead that. Okay. Because some of them I hadn't even heard of. So it's like, wow. A lot of them are also using it for quests or ways to engage and reward their community outside of air drafts.

And they want some civil protection to make sure that they're not rewarding Kevin 17 times. And are those quests like for points or for actual tokens? Most of the time they're for points. Sometimes I believe they also do NFTs. Oh, okay. Okay. Well, that's really interesting. Hopefully we'll see more of that because I do think that currently the airdrop system is one that probably does benefit whales more than other people.

So speaking of air drops, you know, I feel like we're definitely seeing that, you know, being a thing, especially in the Salana ecosystem. But you guys are focused on the EVM. And I wondered, which is the Ethereum virtual machine and, you know, all the Ethereum community. So why is it that you've decided to focus on that community in particular? Yeah, Ginklyde has always been Ethereum and EVM aligned. And when we listened at the top of the episode to Kevin's journey founding Gikline and growing it, we've always really adopted and grown with the ethos of the Ethereum ecosystem. And in particular, the coordination cooperation between all of the...

the different players in the Ethereum ecosystem and the composability and modularity that's inherent to our protocols and our tools as well as to the Ethereum ecosystem. And so because we found the most kind of history and success there, that is where we're most focused on growing kind of the wider EBM ecosystem and Bitcoin right now. And do you think you will try to branch out to other chains? Maybe one day in the future. As, you know, we've reached that Bitcoin 3.2.2. I know escape velocity. I'd say in the near term over the next one to two years, we are really focused on success within the EVM. And we see other public goods players emerging in other ecosystems, which we're actually really excited about and excited to collaborate with them and share

learnings. You know, one of the amazing things about the EVM is its network effects. Basically, almost every Alt-Layer 1 and layer 2 in the ecosystem has either EVM compatibility or EVM compatibility on the roadmap. And so one of the beautiful things about designing for the EVM is that the other ecosystems are kind of coming to you in so far as when there's EVM compatibility on Cosmos or on Solana eventually they'll be able to just adopt Allo Protocol as it already exists. And so while there are some ecosystems that are forking Allo Protocol and building it for Wazim type architecture. We're of the belief that basically every blockchain ecosystem is eventually

going to have some sort of EVM compatibility. And so we just want to build the best EVM compatible Allo Protocol so that people can adopt it once they have EVM compatibility. So, you know, we'll see how that plays out. But so far it seems like everyone is going to be building for the EVM in the future. Yeah. Or, you know, when you talk about how people are building get coin like things on all layer ones. I mean, it sounds like there could be cross-pollination either way, right? Where, you know, they have certain mechanisms or designs that you find interesting and that you kind of borrow back. So now let's kind of talk about Gitcoin, the entity, going from a more centralized entity to a more decentralized one. How are you undertaking that process?

Yeah, I'll take this one. So I think, Before we get to how, I just love to start with why, Laura, because decentralization comes at a cost and we should only decentralize things that should be decentralized. And back in the Gitcoin 1.0 days, I was subject to a bunch of different Twitter debates, which basically all were sort of a riff on, how do we know we can trust Gitcoin to fund our ecosystem public goods? And they would range from the conspiratorial. How do we know Kevin's not on the back end changing the vote? to what if we want to fund things that are outside of Gitcoins regulatory obligations. And so basically what I realized, and this is actually really hard for me because remember at this point, I'm like three and a half years into building Gitcoin.

It's my life's work at this point. And I realize Gitcoin is fundamentally mispositioned if it's going to be a company. And we need, if we're going to build the public goods funding substrate, capital allocation substrate for the world, it needs to be incredibly neutral. decentralized protocol. So that was the why behind turning Gitcoin from a company into a Dow. And basically everything that is the how and in the what sort of flows from that why. So we wanted to make Gitcoin into a decentralized protocol because we value the principle of credible neutrality. You don't want to have like a company that's on the other side of your public goods funding's

infrastructure that's either extracting from it or could without accountability change the votes or change the playing field towards one project or another. And that's the principle of credible neutrality. And I think we talk a lot in the blockchain space about why we need credible neutrality for money. But the idea of credible neutrality for public goods funding and capital allocation infrastructure is sort of a new thing to think about because we're just starting to think about blockchain as capital allocation infrastructure. But anyway, to directly answer your question about how we're turning Bitcoin into a Dow, I kind of think of it as a layer cake.

So basically, the decentralization layer cake is decentralizing the governance of Bitcoin. So when it was a company, it was a, you know, we were a Delaware C-Corp and I was the CEO. So basically all of the decisions rolled up to me. And now it's a Dow running on chain on the Ethereum Mainnet using a fork of compound delegated governance. And that's how the decisions are made legitimate is through token holder voting. And then there is the product layer. Before it was a centralized monolithic architecture that was hosted on AWS servers, I think, in Portland.

And now we're a series of decentralized, incredibly neutral protocols that are hosted on the Ethereum Mainnet. net and those those protocols are governed by that first governance layer and then and then there was the the sort of like legal infrastructure for for the the project before we were a Delaware C corp as I mentioned and and now we have a a foundation that is just has one or two people in it and it's just kind of like a thin wrapper around the Dow governance from there so And who's part of the foundation and how were they selected? Yeah. So basically, if you go to go to gov.gitcoin.com, you can read a bunch of details about this.

There was a proposal that was ratified from the community in order to form the Get Coin Foundation. Right now, Kyle Weiss is the executive director of the Get Coin Foundation. And he was elected by a, I think it was a 51% majority vote. But yeah, I think that the succession from Kyle to the next director of the foundation is something that's been an active topic on the governance forum over the last year or so. And the plan is to have another election for that role at some point in the future. So anyway, I don't want to get too into the weeds here. TLDR, it's a layer cake. Legal governance, product, and economics all have to be decentralized.

And it's been something that's been progressively been decentralized over the last couple of years. and I think it'll continue to be progressively decentralized over time. And in terms of contributors to the Allo Protocol, like how many are there and are they funded by the foundation? Or is it similar to like a Bitcoin or an Ethereum where you also get random people who just stumble upon this open source repository are interested in contributing? There's a handful of teams that are building on top of Allo Protocol.

My vision for Allo Protocol is that any hacker coming to a hackathon can within a weekend build get coin grants into their application for their hackathon. So basically, we want to make these tools so easy to use that anyone can build the power of get coin grants into their application or either the reverse of pulling out of Allo Protocol and into your application is actually writing new capital allocation strategies and submitting them upstream to Allo Protocol. So we've seen One Hive billing on top of Allo Protocol. we've seen superfluid and geo-web building the streaming quadratic funding tool on top of Allo Protocol.

Raid Guild is building some interesting hyper-certs on top of Allo Protocol. And Meg's team, GrantsLab, I think, is doing some interesting work on top of Allo Protocol. So there's a lot of different teams building on top of Allo Protocol. But Meg and Grants Lab, I think, are the ones that are most serious about stewarding it into the future. So Meg, I don't know if you have anything to add there. Yeah, the ALO Protocol is also something, too, that I think will be more and more visibly and actively decentralized as it grows. As the primary contributor to Allo right now, the Grants Lab team plays a large role in kind of shaping it and engaging the community with it. And this is something that we look forward to having the community take more and more ownership over the core protocol over time.

And so for the Dow, you know, you talked about that governance layer. I know you guys have the GTC token, the Gitcoin token. So is that used for governance or, you know, what are the purposes of GTC? Yeah. So Gitcoin launched Gitcoin Dow on, I think it was May 20 something, 2021. And the Dow is about two and a half years old at this point. GTC was conceived as a governance token. And, you know, one of the interesting things I think that's evolved around Gitcoin is not only are we using compound style governance, which is, you know, that's what Uniswap uses. That's what compound uses. And, you know, that's kind of like the gold standard in governance.

And when you say compound style, can you just give a brief overview of what that looks like? Yeah, sure. So basically, what compound allows us to do is delegate to people who are going to vote on our behalf. So people who are holding governance tokens aren't always going to be the same people who are voting. And when we dropped GTC to our contributors, basically what we allowed them to do is either say, hey, I'm going to vote. I'm going to take the time to follow the governance process or proposals in process. And I'm going to vote, you know, which when you only have a couple GTC or a thousandth of a percent of a supply, maybe not worth your time. But if you delegate to one of what we call the stewards, then they're going to be the ones who delegate on your behalf or to vote on your behalf. And so what we saw at Gekkoindal launch was that there was 15,000 token holders that got the airdrop.

This is back in 2021. But they delegated to about 100, what we call stewards, who are the ones that are actually going to be involved in governance, reviewing all the proposals and doing things. And that's what I mean by compound style governance is just that delegation layer in voting. And so I interrupted you. You were talking about the GTC token. Yeah. So everyone in the Ethereum ecosystem, not everyone, but a lot of people use compound style governance. But one of the interesting loops that I'm interested in spinning with Gitcoin is using Gitcoin to build

Bitcoin. So we are pioneering the field of capital allocation for Dow's that have treasuries that they want to distribute to their communities. And basically the loop that I think that we're pioneering is that Gitcoin's building Gitcoin grants and we're running Gitcoin grants on the Gitcoin community. So basically there's a loop where Gitcoin builds Grants and grants builds Gitcoin. And I think that that's going to create like an upward flywheel for our community. The actual tangible example of this is that there's a Gitcoin citizens round that's happening right now where we're using quadratic funding in order to fund what matters to the Gitcoin community.

And there's a bunch of people on the periphery of the get coin community that are doing data science, that are doing software development, the people who are working on on top of Allo Protocol. and they are using Allo Protocol to earn rewards to build on top of Allo Protocol, which I think is sort of like an interesting loop that we haven't seen in a lot of other DOWs. So, yeah, using Gikcoin to build Gipcoin is the dogfooding loop that we've been building. And so I did happen to see a blog post about that or some posts somewhere, a forum post. And basically, as far as I understand, it's simply like Dow members kind of calling out other Dow members that they feel like have been helpful. Is that kind of that citizen grant?

Is that what that is? Yeah, it really started as a way to retroactively reward community members who had been active in promoting the grants program for a long time and looking over the last year or so of contribution history. And now it's something that we're really like building a muscle and a habit around so that as there are opportunities where people see a governance proposal, say, for me in the way that I am building product over the upcoming quarter. And they're like, this is great, but like I would really love to see this other thing on your

roadmap that you're not tackling. We go back and forth and half the time I say, oh, we just can't put it on our roadmap. But hey, if you want to build it, let's go see if it works. And we've got a program to reward you retroactively if you actually built something that works and you can integrate. And so that's one of the things that we're most excited about with the citizens program is just continuing to raise the level and the regularity of the contributions that we get by having this kind of like muscle and habit built into the program. So now let's talk about how Gitcoin itself earns money.

You know, when you were centralized, what did that look like? And then under a decentralized, well, I guess you've maybe described it already. But just talk about how that used to be and then maybe what it's changing to. Yeah. The ultimate plan, I think, is to use Gitcoin to fund Gitcoin in addition to using Gitcoin to build Gitcoin. So basically, Gitcoin is available for any EVM-based community to fund what matters to their community. Right now, we are doing that for free, as Meg likes to say, we accept payment and feedback. So still in our sort of mostly pre-revenue stage right now. But I think that, you know, a way that this could be. sustainable long term would be to allow people to send an optional tip back to Gitcoin in exchange for using the software in their communities. Maybe Gitcoin becomes one of the grants in the rounds that say you're funding another EVM-based community you could contribute back to Gitcoin.

And, you know, it's possible, though, I don't think that we're quite there yet, that there could be some sort of fee introduced to the protocol at some point. I think that that's something that would have to be debated in the governance, in the governance of the Dow into the future. But, you know, we are very lucky to have been supported in over the years by early backers, such as Consensus funded Gitcoin back in the day. And as Gitcoin started to grow in Reach Escape Velocity in the 2020 cycle, we got donations from many different members of the Ethereum community.

Tens of millions of dollars have been raised on Gitcoin, and that includes funding Gitcoin itself. In 2021, Vitalik Booder actually sent a several hundred million dollar donation of dog tokens to Gitcoin, that I think is to put us in sort of the special position where we've been, able to be in this pre-revenue journey longer than other people have been able to. And so we're just really thankful to Vitalik for supporting Gitcoin. Really thankful to Joe Lubin for funding Gitcoin in its early days before anyone else did. And yeah, it's been a real community journey to build Gitcoin and be supported by the community.

And I hope that we're going to be able to embody this positive sum ethos in support from the community in the future. Honestly, from what you've said, several hundred million dollar gift of dog tokens, I'm wondering if maybe you won't ever need to turn on fees. But anyway, we'll see how that all plays out. So let's know also just talk about what it's like when you're an applicant or recipient. And I understand that, you know, there was a sort of past version of this in a current version or future version. So what is this like? You know, is it a traditional, kind of grant process where you write up a proposal and although I guess it probably differs for the retroactive funding. But can you just describe what what that looks like for somebody who's trying to get this funding? Yeah, I'll caveat with it. It depends who's running the grants program. So I'll describe it. It looks like when Ginkoyne runs the grants program. But for other ecosystems, they have the option to tweak the application process and journey to whatever degree they so

desire. So Ginkland Grants for Round 20 is coming up in April. And as part of that process, we're opening up applications in a couple of weeks for people who have or who are building open source software in the Ethereum ecosystem, as well as people who are participating in certain community initiatives. And so for each of those, there are eligibility criteria. And when a prospective grantee bills that they meet all of the eligibility criteria, they submit a fairly standard application, which takes probably about 20 minutes to fill out. That application is routed to the grants manager who either accepts or rejects the application. And all of this is done on chain too, and so the wider community is able to see all of the applications and the acceptance rejection

rates and, you know, the impact that that later has on the funding round. Let's say that everything is going amazingly, as we hope it will. So the majority of these applications are accepted. And then when the round opens for donations, those crowdfunded donations are sent directly to the grantee. And then when the round closes, all of the donations have been made. The quadratic funding calculation that we talked about earlier has been made. And then that portion of the matching pool is sent directly to recipients to those grants. to use. And for some grantees, too, and some programs that mandate it, there's a KYC step.

We're at their reporting criteria, too, if it's a program that's really focused on tracking milestones and impact of grants. But the overall journey is pretty simple from application to receiving funds. It's about a six-week process. And what kinds of funds are they receiving? Like, which types of tokens. You know, I see that you are, you work with all ERC20s, but I didn't know if there were certain standards around which ERC20s are acceptable and what or not, et cetera. Yeah, the short answer is that we can support most ERC20s and native tokens on EVM-supported chains. And what if they're, like, I don't know if you remember back in the day. This is like really, really nerdy and old, but there was useless Ethereum token during the 20s.

17 ICO craze. So like with something like, you know, that's when I asked about if there are standards. Oh, great question. So I love an nerdy question. That would predict my Ethereum involvement. So at the application level, remember, this is the level where Gekcoin is like actively developing the app and putting some kind of the safeguards or guardrails in place. And so we're wait listing the tokens that are used for donations.

and payments in the application. And we whitelist tokens, basically, that have enough liquidity and credibility that people can actually use us to fund the things that they're building. So, Meg, you're the head of the grants labs. And I wondered, you know, what your current focus is right now with that work. Yeah, as you might be able to tell by your name,

we are 100% focused on grants and making grants easy and impactful to deploy anywhere in the EVM ecosystem. We're really focused on grants for a couple of reasons. One is that's where GICCoin has historically been the most focused and where a lot of our strengths lie as an organization. It's this history and expertise that we've built up around grants. And the second reason, really most importantly,

is that we've seen the power of grants in growing the Ethereum ecosystem. We have basically a multi-year case study through the GICT Coin Grants Program that shows the success of grants for Ethereum. We recently ran a study with Carl at Open Source Observer to track the impact of the funding that's been distributed through the Gitcoin Grants program. And what we found is that for every million dollars distributed in Gigcoin grants, there are 13 developers who are still active in the Ethereum ecosystem today. And so we are literally funding projects that have longevity that are contributing back to

the ecosystem and doing so at a really kind of effective and efficient ROI. And so in this next chapter, we're really looking to help other programs spin up grants programs and to do that by giving them the software to do that, by giving them the funding mechanisms, as we talked about earlier, as well as all of the expertise and strategy that they need to run a good grants program. And so, you know, obviously you guys are in the midst of a number of changes and you're already kind of starting to see some of your new products taking off that I do know because I watch Kevin's presentation at Eats Denver, that there's even more kind of futuristic things that could be coming down the pike. There's a whole list that I have here. I won't name them all. But Kevin, if there are a few that you want to call out as things that you're excited about, you know, and just give a brief description of what they could look like. That would be great. Sure. Yeah. So Gitcoin grant stack, which is powered by Allo Protocol, already supports direct grants in quadratic funding and retroactive public goods funding.

And we talked about conviction voting. So those are things that are available today. But I think that our long-term goal in the fullness of time is to have support for many different types of capital allocation, all in one software suite. And, and, you know, some of the things that I'm really excited about are doing more private forms of capital allocation. If you're going to be funding public goods in your ecosystem, arguably it's, it's not really anyone's business, what you're voting on. And so having a more privacy aware construction of funding, funding your ecosystem might be important, particularly if you're funding, if you're the type of person who, say in a hypothetical future, you're funding humanitarian work in Ukraine, but you're someone

who might have to travel to a part of the world that might view that on-chain signal of your support of Ukraine in a way that is adversarial. So I think privacy is really important. And we should, as we're funding these ecosystems, we should give people options to do private voting. So that's one example of, of things that, of a private voting system that could be in the get coin ecosystem in the future. And we're working with the PSC team, privacy scaling Ethereum team in order to, in order to hopefully build that into get coin eventually. No promises here for this section, but these are just things that I'm interested in seeing built. Another thing I'm interested in seeing is angel and what I call angel investing 2.0.

So you could imagine a world in which instead of just donating to grants on get coin, you're actually giving tokens to projects that may in the future give you governance tokens back. So people who are in the United States and are privileged enough to be accredited angel investors may be familiar with a product called Angel List, where basically you can browse different startups and participate in in funding rounds. I think it'd be really interesting to build an on-chain version of angel investing in which people can browse up-and-coming projects in the Web3 ecosystem and can receive governance tokens back in exchange for contributing to them. And what I think is really interesting about that is that we could build a world in which

everyone is an angel investor and is participating in the up-and-coming projects in the ecosystem. everyone has deal flow, democratizing deal flow, so that you don't have to be Andresen Horowitz in order to get access to up-and-coming projects in the ecosystem. And, you know, so I'd be interested in seeing people building tokenized rewards for donating to projects into Allo Protocol in the future. A third one that I'll just say that I think is an example of this category is, is what are called, impact attestations. So there's a bunch of people in the Web 3 space that are doing, that are doing measurements of which projects are actually having impact and are issuing what are called hypercerts that represent that impact. So your audience might be familiar with a concept

called a carbon credit, which is basically a certificate that says that, a certain amount of carbon was either removed from the atmosphere or not put into the atmosphere. And carbon credits are an example of an impact attestation that represents some sort of financial value related to impact. And one of the things that we're doing in the Web3 ecosystem is taking carbon credits and tokenizing them such that you could represent that financial utility or impact utility on chain. And then not only representing that impact attestation in the form of a carbon credit, but think about impact attestation for other types of impact, whether that's an open source contribution or maybe you volunteered in your local community.

So impact attestations you can kind of think of as like carbon credits, but for any type of impact. And so there's a whole bunch of really interesting software development happening right now where people are exploring, hey, what if we actually used impact attestations and weighted the registry of Gitcoin grants according to the projects that have the most impact? And what that does, I think is really interesting is allows people to browse projects and give to projects that have the most impact, as opposed to the ones that are just the most popular or someone who has the biggest audience on Twitter is giving impact too. So, yeah, I mean, I think that we talked about private voting capital allocation systems. We talked about angel investing 2.0 capital allocation systems,

and we talked about impact attestations on on, on, on alo protocol. And I think that these are just some examples of in the next couple of market cycles, different types of capital allocation systems that we hope to see pioneered on Gitcoin and then made really easy to use for all of the customers of Gitcoin grants that are helping their ecosystems to grow through grants. So that's a little taste of the future. So this is maybe tangential to what you described with the impact attestations. But when you were talking about the carbon credits, I couldn't help but think about provenance issues where, you know, people want to make sure that, you know, the quote organic cotton shirt that they bought actually is organic and not just like, you know, doesn't

just say that or that, you know, the diamond ring that they're buying is not a blood diamond or, you know, stuff like that. Is that something that could be applied in that situation or is that just sort of a different domain? Yeah, the technology is pretty similar. Just think about the impact outtestations as tracking a cryptographic claim of impact as opposed to the properties of a product that was manufactured in some way. So we're using the same cryptography, but just applying it to a different thing. Okay. Okay. So this is so interesting to me because as you guys have been talking, I sort of picture how like back in the day, I feel like I did a TEDx talk on this, I think in like 2018.

So six years ago, I was like, oh, you know, you can use this technology where, you know, because the trends had already been going where more and more people were working for themselves, like solopreneurs, you know, or working multiple, you know, not working multiple jobs, but, you know, do freelancing in different careers, right? You know, the multi-hyphenate career. And I was saying that actually we would see that accelerate where people would work for different DOWs and they would be able to, yeah, basically just sort of pursue their interests but get paid and like not necessarily have to work for a corporation. And as you've been talking, I feel like

we're sort of now going to see something like that that could proliferate with this technology where more and more people can look at things that we benefit from as a society. And currently, we don't have a way to fund the groups or people that, help give us clean air or, you know, open source software or whatever the public good is, but that we might see a flourishing of different projects that enable that with this technology. So just riffing on that, you know, I know we've talked sort of half-jokingly about like Gitcoin 3.0, but I just want to look at Gitcoin 3.0 and beyond, you know, if you get like really futuristic, like what do you think the future could look like if the technology actually

gets built in the way that you envision. Like, how would society change? You know, what changes would we see happen culturally? Yeah, I mean, I think that my, in 10 years, if we were massively successful, you will be able to just volunteer and do good in your community and receive tokenized rewards for doing it and not have to worry about how they come to you. Now, I'm not promising that that's going to happen. That's the articulation of if we're massively successful.

There will just be a capital allocation infrastructure that funds what matters to to towns, to states, to countries, to your friend group, to your interest group in what online communities. And there will be a capital allocation infrastructure that make sure that those rewards fund from tokenized treasuries and from the treasuries of local city and state governments to you for doing that. And, you know, I think that there's a lot of things that need to be dialed in for that vision to actually be realized. Everything from user experience of blockchains to actually getting

governments to use this kind of technology to actually getting them to allocate capital to funding collective action in their local communities. But I think that it's worth sort of articulating that North Star because it allows the get coin community to rally around building the capital allocation tools and also the culture that makes it happen. So, yeah, I don't know. What's your reaction to that? Well, I love it. Meg, I don't know if you want to add on your vision.

No, all plus one, everything that O'Waki said. What is so exciting to me is just how the solution space opens up as more and more tokens and individuals or more and more assets and individuals come on chain and what's possible there. All right. Well, this has been a great conversation. Where can people learn more about each of your? you, Andrew, work. Yeah, you can follow us at Gitcoin on Twitter to stay up to date on all of the

GICCoin-2-0 and 3-0 stuff that you've heard us talk about today. I'm also Meg Lister on Twitter. You can find me on Twitter.com.com slash awaki, OWO-C-K-I. And the other link that I'll show real quick is impact.gitcoin.co.co, there's a lot of blockchain projects that talk about doing things. Gekcoin is one of those that is actually doing it. At impact.gitcoin.com.com, you can see the stats of Gitcoin's core metrics. And we funded $60 million worth of public goods in the Ethereum community through 4.2 million donations and 170 funding campaigns. So impact.com.com dot co is the site that you can use to track our progress in making this vision a reality. Thanks again for having us, Laura. This was fun. Yeah, yeah. Thank you both so much.

Thank you. Great to be here. Thanks so much for joining us today. It's to learn more about and Kevin and Get Coin 2.0, check out the show notes for this episode. Unchained is produced by me, Laura Shin, without from Nelson Wong, Matt Pilchard, Juan Navanovich, Megan Gavis, Shishak, and Market Korea. Thanks for listening. Unchained is now a part of the Coin Desk podcast network. For the latest in digital assets, check out markets daily five days a week with host Noel Atchison. Follow the CoinDesk podcast network for some of the best shows in crypto.