Unchained - How Institutional Investors Can Do Due Diligence in the Crypto Space - Ep.57

Episode Date: May 6, 2018

Here is the second special episode from the Time Summit, a Bridge Alternatives event, on how institutional investors can do operational due diligence. Suna Said, founder and CEO of family office Nima Capital, Eddie Duszlak of Texas Children's Hospital, and Joel Gantcher of Gantcher Family Partners discuss how they invest in the nascent Web 3.0. They discuss why a year of experience in crypto is so valuable, how they determine who the serious players are in the space and why the speed of disruption from the internet revolution gives them motivation to get into the crypto markets. Thank you to the Time Summit, a Bridge Alternatives event! https://timesummit.org/ http://bridgealternatives.com/ Suna Said: https://timesummit.org/2018/04/18/suna-said/ Eddie Duszlak: https://timesummit.org/2018/03/06/eddie-duszlak/ Joel Gantcher: https://timesummit.org/2018/04/19/joel-gantcher/ Thank you to our sponsors! Ethereal Summit: https://etherealsummit.com/ Use code Unchained10 for 10% off! Quantstamp: https://quantstamp.com/ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Hi, everyone. This is a special episode of a panel on due diligence in the crypto space from the Time Summit, a bridge alternatives event. I had a brief but very interesting discussion with Suna Saeed, founder and CEO of Family Capital, Eddie Duslack of Texas Children's Hospital, and Joel Gantcher of Gantir Family Partners. In it, they discuss how they invest in the nascent Web 3.0 space, as outlined by Polychain Capitals, Olaf Carlson, Wee, earlier that day. They also talk about why a year of experience in crypto is so valuable, how they determine who the serious players are in the space, and why the speed of disruption from the internet revolution gives them motivation to get into the crypto markets. This was a fantastic conference with great speakers and questions from guests. Enjoy. On May 11th and 12th, some of the most interesting humans from around the globe will come together in Brooklyn for the Ethereum Summit, hosted by consensus to collaborate on building the decentralized future. To register and receive 10% off, go to EtherialSummit.com and enter the code Unchained 10. This episode is brought to you by Quant Stamp. Quant Stamp is building the first smart contract security auditing protocol designed to secure all smart contracts at a cost-effective and scalable manner. The technology is being developed by a team of PhDs with over 500 Google Scholar Citation.

To learn more or request an audit, visit www.com.com. Hi, everyone. Hello? Hello? Oh, okay. Hi, everyone. We're going to get started with our next panel. This one is about investment and operational due diligence hurdles in crypto assets. And my panelists are Eddie Duslack, assistant director of the investment office at Texas Children's Hospital, Joel Gansher, CIO at Gansher Family Partners, and soon as Saeed, founder and CEO of Nima Capital. So let's talk about, operational due diligence. And we've got a little, we've only got like about a half an hour.

So why don't we just start right in with the different types of investments that investors can make in this space and what the pros and cons are of those? Yeah, I think from like an actual, like evaluating funds, they don't actually look that dissimilar from like a traditional investment that you're probably used to evaluating. Like you have some that, you know, Block Tower that spoke yesterday, like more of a short-term kind of discretionary trader, which is the underlying assets are crypto as opposed to equities. You have some that are kind of more on, like look more like a long-biased equity manager where they might own 10 assets have kind of a three to five-year time horizon.

You have others that are kind of more on like the venture capital into the spectrum where they're looking at smaller opportunities where they're trying to help the management teams or the developers scale. and they have more of a venture capital approach, some that are focusing more on like ICOs. And so there's a broad range kind of across that, that, you know, I think when you actually get to the underlying strategies, it's similar to evaluating any other manager

that somebody from an institutional investor would be used to evaluating from like a style, what's their competitive advantage, all of those types of things. But Eddie, I just want to also frame this, because you're only describing the crypto hedge fund, Right? Yep. Because even with beyond that, what are some of the other investment opportunities?

Yeah. So I think right now, I mean, it's primarily looking at, you know, whether it's cryptocurrency, such as Bitcoin or, or others like Monaro. There are tokens, like utility tokens. You heard, you heard OLAF speak a little earlier on things like Gallum or Filecoin that provide access to a network that has some kind of utility to, the end user. And then beyond that, there's ICOs, there's funding early stage kind of management teams

or developers to pursue and kind of develop a protocol. Those are, you know, in my mind, kind of some of the bigger categories. And I think there's other areas like, you know, what Olaf was talking about earlier with Dharma, I mean, down the road being able to be a lender on a platform like that is, you know, opportunities that you kind of don't, aren't there yet today, but that will develop over time. Or investing in things like CryptoKitties, if that's kind of more of your fancy. Yeah, actually, there are a couple of opportunities out there, and there are certain platforms that are attempting to enable, you know, lending, utilizing a blockchain. You know, there's

mining. There are opportunities to invest in mining. So it's been a relatively rich opportunity set, I would say, which is only growing. Like, how well these actually turn out is another issue. I mean, because there are plenty of risks associated with these that, like, we don't typically see in traditional funds. And Suna, I know you are investing also in some of the VC firms and the startups. Yeah, so we're invested across the spectrum. We're invested in crypto funds, blockchain VC funds.

We invest mostly directly, pre-ICO, C. stage, VC, and what we think it comes down to, which is actually something you taught me early on, Laura, is the underlying talent. So, for example, as you explained to me, again, early on, you were like someone like a Joey Krug, who built Auger, which was one of the first companies built on top of Ethereum, like following what he does and seeing, you know, what projects does he like? Who does he, you know, write articles about? How is he talking about mining or scaling? Or, for example, like Joseph Poon who wrote Lightning Network for Bitcoin and Ethereum. And recently, over the last couple months, also wrote Plasma with Vitalik Buterin. Like, really get into the underlying talent, follow them, see what they're doing.

And seeing how the technology is accelerating and leaprogging up on itself. and then seeing, okay, what are the new applications? And to that end, something that we're finding is an exciting new development is there are some investors and funds that are focusing on the application layer. So they're investing on the protocol layer. Like, for example, there's a firm called IDEO. They're a design firm. And they have been working on user interface, user exchange dynamics,

network design, community building around protocols. And Joseph Poon, for example, said this is the most exciting fund, because they're launching a fund, that is going to come out of the ecosystem by far because they're going to help scale out the technology globally

in a way that I think we all know is going to be possible. And it's just a question of the technology finding its scaling solutions like Olaf said. And actually, I spoke with Olaf about this fund as well. And you said that's amazing to focus on the DAPs at this stage

because it feels almost a little too early, which is the time to get in. Like invest before it's obvious. I think that's just generally a theme that we follow as a family office. So we apply that to everything. Yeah, I would just say that like that sounds really interesting. We can talk about it later. Like the interesting thing for investors today is like everything is sort of inefficient today. There's nothing in this space where you could say, all right, everybody's got the joke.

We were talking yesterday at the conference about the lack of alpha in markets. When you look for alpha, you want complexity and people who don't understand it. You want volatility. It's really all here.

And actually, one other thing I guess you want is alpha donors, like retail investors who are willing to give you their alpha, right? And that's what, like, this space is providing today. And so while I think that's totally, totally great, I think on a slightly more mundane level, there still is a lot of opportunity for normal, long-only investing in this space. Absolutely. And because we've been talking about sort of the different layers at which you can invest, there's like the protocol layer and there's the app layer. And, you know, there's

these financial capital funds, the hedge funds, the hedge funds, the, the startups, how do you determine which type of investment you want to make? And what are the differences like in returns or around strategy? Well, I have my answer. Like, I know that I don't want to be competing with Olaf for determining where I want to put my money

in like an ICO or a project. And so, you know, much like I did for many years, like looking at, you know, stocks and bonds, utilizing hedge funds and experts to do it, Like we will almost always utilize a manager or fund structure to make those investments. And do you want to add on that? We're probably more in the same boat. Okay.

Well, I also wanted to ask because, oh, go ahead. Yeah. So on the crypto trading side, we as a firm actually learned a valuable lesson, which was that the trader is definitely doing a better job trading. and that being on the inside of the ecosystem is actually not even that helpful. So we definitely bucket things into crypto, blockchain VC. We have different people in the firm focusing on the different areas. For example, in the beginning when we started investing in crypto,

we had competing funds to see who would do better. I had my little fund, and the traders had their fund. And I thought, this is going to be such a lay-up. I'm totally going to outperform them, because I'm in the center of the ecosystem on all these telegram chats. I have the advisors like Joseph Poon and Charlie Noyes and Naval Ravik Khan, and they're constantly giving me the updates. And I have to say the market, like I kept trading on the information,

and more often than not, the market just went the other way. I know we had like around the Bitcoin Fort, for example, and things like that. and my traders actually far in a way like outperforming so it's funny like in some ways some asset classes in the area are actually more you know

follow more of a traditional like technical trading framework with some obviously fundamental information but it's not necessarily such an advantage to be like inside the you know value creation on the other end of the spectrum like the early stage see stuff, it's definitely

helpful to be talking to the insiders and seeing, you know, what's already been done, where is there still white space, how is the technology advancing? Well, one thing about what you just said is that I do wonder over a different time frame might you actually end up

beating them, right, on the short term time frame, maybe, especially if you were doing your test over the fall, then that, you know, may not have worked out super well for you. Yeah, actually, sorry, I actually want to comment on that because you did mention about it. In terms of funds, it's definitely helpful to have people who, like Metastable or Olaf, like that's the perfect scenario where they have the technical little bit, but are also able to, like Lucas Ryan does at Medistable, look at the underlying protocol and analyze it and all that. Yeah, I don't want to take away from that. The Ethereum Summit hosted by Consensus is anything but your average blockchain conference. Join builders, philosophers, policymakers, artists, and humanitarians from around the world on May 11th and 12th at the Knockdown Center in Brooklyn for two days of storytelling and knowledge sharing around how we can build our decentralized future together using blockchain technology.

No sitting around and listening to boring presentations. Come participate, experience, and have a blast with folks like Joe Lubin, Amber Baldett, Michael Casey, and thousands more. To register and receive a 10% discount, go to ethereal summit.com and enter the code Unchained 10. Founded in the aftermath of the Dow Hack, Quant Stamp is building the first smart contract security auditing protocol designed to secure all smart contracts in a cost-effective and scalable manner. Relying on humans to audit smart contracts is expensive and error-prone. And with the exploding growth of smart contracts, that solution just won't scale. The team at Kwan Stamp is developing a solution to audit smart contracts on the Ethereum network in an automated and decentralized way that can scale with a growing demand.

Being built by a team of PhDs who collectively have over 500 Google Scholar citations, Quant Stamp is paving the way for safer and more reliable smart contracts that will power the decentralized world. To learn more or request an audit, visit www.com. www.quantstamp.com. Well, so what I want to know also is in this current world west of crypto, how do you determine who the serious players are and who you can trust? Because there's a lot of people that you can't trust. As we've seen, there's tons of scams.

There's a lot of unserious people that are just getting everyday people to throw money at them in initial coin offerings. So how do you determine who you should work with or who is legitimate or serious? Yeah, I can go first. I mean, I think for us, like being a children's hospital, like FedExalt. share for a children's hospital, like that's something that we think about a lot, clearly. And so a lot of it comes down to who are venture capitalists that we respect, and where are they allocating their money. So, I mean, I think one of the, I think inflection points for, like,

endowments, foundations, other institutional investors, like, really rolling up their sleeves on the space was when, I think it was March or April of last year, it came out that, like, Sequoia, Andrews-Sin-Horowitz, Founders Fund, and others were in. investing in polychain and meta stable. That was me. I broke that news in July. Yeah, no, it was a great article. But I do think that was an inflection point for this people in our seat to be able to say, okay, if I'm scrambling for capacity to get into this next Sequoia fund, like, why does it not

make sense for me to look at something where they're willing to pay an external manager some kind of fees? Like, that seems like it would be somewhat of a high-conviction idea. And then it also makes it easier to pitch to a board where, you say that we're co-investing alongside this manager that we have a lot of respect for. So our network has kind of our way of getting into that of who to trust has been through our GP relationships on the venture capital side. Yeah, the one thing I would add is like absolutely, you know, I agree with both you guys.

Like it's all about your network, which is no different from the investing that most of us do when we look at long short equity funds or macro funds. You use your network, you figure out who's credible. But the one thing that's a little difference is that there's really, there's such limited history in this space. Like there's not a lot of precedent. This truly isn't an experiment. And like there's the idea of sort of dog ears in the crypto world.

And like Olaf's been doing it since, you know, 11 or whatever. Like he's like the George Soros of this industry, even though he's 28 years old. Right. And so I think like with each additional year of experience. experience, it's tremendously valuable, like just to have seen all the mayhem that has occurred in this industry. So I value, personally, I look at experience quite a lot when I look to allocate to managers. Yeah, there's something funny that Olaf said to me before he was like talking about, you know, some of the crypto crashes or something, or maybe we were in a downturn at that moment.

And he said, oh, my God, this is nothing compared to when it went from $32 to $2. He was remembering all the way back in 2011, and back then he was like 21 or something, and I'd put most of his life savings in, and it devastated him. So anyway, and Sunna, do you have more to say on that? Yeah, I agree. Follow the talent, which luckily in this ecosystem is still,

it's such a small community, actually. It's not hard to go and get into the weeds, to go on Medium or Twitter and see what are the thought leaders saying, and that's the beauty of diligenceing this. still a small ecosystem. So if you get in now, even if you're just intellectually curious or interested and don't necessarily want to invest yet, it's really fun to just get the ethos and understand how is the technology going to unfold and what are these people saying about how the world is going to evolve along with it. And speaking of who, you know, you work with,

what about within an institutional investor? Who within that company or entity should be dealing with this type of investment? Well, I think, I don't know exactly who, but, like, the volatility is such, like, the most dangerous thing for an institution is to get cold feet at the wrong time, right? That's what destroys many potentially good investments over the long term. It becomes too path-dependent, you draw down, you get out. And, like, there's no better case study for path dependency than the crypto world. And so what I would say, I don't work for an institution anymore, but I did for many years,

is, like, what I would say is anybody who has a right to pull you out of that investment, like, I would argue they should have a hand in the diligence so that they can really appreciate, not just reading a memo. Like, this will draw, like, there are many good funds that have presented here at the last, many of them drew down 50% in the first quarter, I'm sure. I'm not sure. I would guess, right? And so unless you're in it, unless you have an appreciation and you've built up that knowledge,

I think it's very hard to live with that. So that's the only thing I would add on the institutional side. Yeah, I think the thing I'd say is most often it seems like it's whoever was investing personally and then they get really excited and they're like, hey, why shouldn't we do this for the actual group that we're managing money for? And so I've seen that kind of come across multiple areas. It's like I focus more on like equity public market strategies, but I was excited and it didn't make sense to not have,

not be looking at it on behalf of like the institution we're managing money for. But more often than not, it seems like it's kind of more within like the venture capital seat, like whoever's overseeing that, just because of the relationships and the fact that they're investing in this ecosystem and their network and all of that. So I think it's probably somewhere in between. But I think it is kind of, since it is a new territory, it's kind of open. into whoever can be able to add value within that.

The ScoreBet app here with Trusted Stats and Real-Time Sports News. Yeah, hey, who should I take in the Boston game? Well, statistically speaking. Nah, no more statistically speaking. I want hot takes. I want knee-jerk reactions. That's not really what I do. Is that because you don't have any knees?

Or... The score bet. Trusted sports content, seamless sports betting. Download today. 19 plus Ontario only. If you have questions or concerns about your gambling or the gambling of someone close to you, please go to conicsonterio.ca. Local news is in decline across Canada, and this is bad news for all of us. With less local news, noise, rumors, and misinformation fill the void. And it gets harder to separate truth from fiction. That's why CBC News is putting more journalists in more places across Canada, reporting on the ground from where you live, telling the stories that matter to all of us. Because local news is big news.

Choose news, not noise. CBC News. Okay, and then as we were talking about in the earlier panel. Sorry, can I mention something about it? So I actually agree with you that it's actually more about mindset than what particular vertical they're in. So finding someone who has an entrepreneurial mindset, but also a long-term investing mindset,

makes a lot of sense. And somebody is organically passionate about it who wants to read about it. it at midnight and get into, you know, what's plasma or what are the scaling solutions or what's Olaf saying? There has to be that intrinsic passion that's involved in it. And I think it has to be personal to some extent that we have, that the person has a connection to the world that we're in now and a connection to the world that might come about. As a family office, money is very personal to us, right? Like,

My constituents are my kids and my grandkids. I feel like, man, I'm about to say an expletive, but I'm not like, I better not miss this. I better not like miss, you know, the next internet wave. And I better not lose this money to, you know, companies that are about to be disrupted because the technology is going to go like this parabolic. And then a whole bunch of, you know, companies like Blockbuster or banks,

could really just get wiped out very quickly as we saw, you know, as the internet ramped up. You know, newspapers, things that were considered very safe for, for example, family offices, were just, you know, almost overnight and you couldn't get out in time. Like I think from an institutional mindset, it's really important to look at these larger-scale movements and understand what's going to happen before we can see it yet, because that's the time to look and prepare. For example, Facebook did a study that showed that 92% of millennials have an extreme distrust of banks.

And if I even just look, I have a 6-year-old and an 8-year-old. I have a really hard time imagining them actually walking into a bricks-and-mortar bank because they are ready to do so much on their phone. My daughter, you know, she's coding apps with her girlfriends. friends, like, it's such a different mindset, and it's important, I think, for us to have the neuroplasticity, to not look at the world that's here now, but to kind of extrapolate out, what is that going to look like? Because when you have a technology that gives power to the people, that's more efficient, more secure, like, those things do win out. Like, it's a logical

connection. You know, it's an interesting point, actually, which makes this technology a little bit different is that, you know, you talked about blockbuster and the changing of the guard and value accruing here and declining here. But what's really interesting is that, like, if this takes off, and it is an if, right, there are lots of risks. But if it takes off, and if OLAF's vision is any close to being true, then, like, this value will not accrue to equity markets, like, which I think is a really, really interesting idea. And so, like, the S&P, like Amazon wins, these guys lose, but the S&P might be sort of similar. Like, if Tazos wins, you know, and they disrupt Uber and, you know,

who knows, like, there could be a real changing of regard of where that value is accruing in the ecosystem, which I think is sort of an interesting idea. And not to just pass the baton down here, but I think on that point, too, is, like, you can assign a probability. Like, you can say that what Olaf said has a 10% likelihood of succeeding. But imagine what the prices of these underlying assets are going to look like if that vision succeeds and assign like a probability multiplied by that. And I know that's a little simplistic, but I mean, we're investing is in the game of like probability. And so I think sometimes like there's a tendency to think about things in terms of like it's all or nothing. It's 100% or zero. And I think that's part of why I became excited about it

and interested is just because of that, you know, say it's a 50, 60, whatever probability you assign, but multiply that by the return and think about it also somewhat as a hedge for disrupting the traditional business models that we all hold through the equity markets. And I think that's a critical link that a lot of people who are kind of at zero may want to think about. So I totally agree with you on all those points. As I was telling somebody the other day, the likelihood that things stay the same is pretty much zero. And so, you know, there is going to be something that comes out of this

technology. However, I want to reference what Suna said earlier about Blockbuster and about how fortunes can change so quickly and turn that on its head a little bit because we are in such early days in this space. We've seen so many hacks of exchanges. We've seen a lot of people losing their private keys and losing lots of money. So when you're investing and you're doing your due diligence, how do you account for the way that the various institutions or companies or protocols that you're investing, how do you make sure that they're following best practices when it comes to security

and that you're not going to lose your investment? Well, I don't think there are established best practices yet, which is one of the challenges of doing diligence. Now, there are some things that folks are doing. So, for example, there's a process of white listing

where you limit the addresses to which funds can be sent so you don't, there's no fat finger. Because once you send Bitcoin and you send it to the wrong address, like it's gone, right? So what steps can you take to ensure that cannot happen, right? In terms of, like, we just heard this panel about, you know, qualified custodians, and I think people are now starting to move in that direction. But, but in my, you know, limited experience over the last 12 months, like, I think it's a very much

get in, you know, like roll up your sleeves and try to understand how it works. And because there there are no easy answers to what is best practice that I've come across to many aspects of crypto investing. And I think like where this is very different from like a traditional fund evaluating a fund or a strategy is an operational due diligence. And I think that I put a twist on the panelists yesterday. The four active managers said that, you know, don't try this at home. Like I'd say you actually should try this at home, but in a small amount, because you

will learn so much and you will ask such better questions of the fund managers because when you go into coin base buy your bitcoin and then you want to send it to you know in exchange so that you can make a trade like you know you want like to your point like you mess up one single digit like it's gone like and and that's a stressful situation and Satoshi doesn't like pick up the help desk and like say let me get you your money back like you're you're you're you're in a bad situation. And then when you get to the exchange, you know, it'll look and feel a lot like kind of a traditional like Schwab or you have like limit orders, market orders, etc. But then once you get it off, like say you're buying Zcash or something. You can't put that back in a vault

at Coinbase. You have to go and buy like a hardware wallet or some kind of wallet to store it. And so then you're like, okay, well, where do I do that? And there's like treasurer or a ledger and which one should I use? And then when you plug in your treasur, you always hope that the money's still there because it's the thing you bought for $100 off Amazon. on and like that's kind of stressful too. And so understanding like all of those types of things is like a reality of kind of where we are within this landscape. And you will be able to understand like, okay, if a hacker got control on my computer

and saw me sending it to this address, like are they using private VPNs or are they like making trades at coffee shops on like public Wi-Fi? Are they whitelisting the addresses so they can't do that? Who has access to the funds? Like you can have a trading error, but it's actually an intentional allocation of funds to like a separate account or something like that. There's a lot of areas where this could be problematic and rogue traders and all those types of things.

And so I think that's where this is like very different and very important at this age in the life cycle is to make sure like the operational side is buttoned up and in a good place. Yeah, and I totally agree about learning how to play with it yourself because even if you have just a few Bitcoin on one of those little hardware devices,

that's in the tens of thousands of dollars right there, which most people are not. used to holding some little, you know, it's like the size of a USB stick that's worth that much money and not losing it, which can be a problem for some people like me, because I'm really good at losing things. So one other thing I wanted to ask about was volatility in this space. How did that affect or influence your investment decisions? I think for us, I mean, you know, volatility, you can adjust for sizing and just sizing and smaller. I think there's also, it also makes you like it makes us more interested in cost averaging in so like a venture structure made more sense

because you have a three-year investment period and you're kind of cost averaging in over that period so I think it makes you it makes us more attentive to like one we want to cost average in and two we want to make sure it's kind of sized appropriately from that well it actually presents an interesting problem because like the the perceived wisdom is you know put 1% or 2% I don't know what the number du jour is like so if it goes up a lot lot, you make money, and if you lose, like, you don't have to worry. But a strange thing happened. Like, you invested money in June of last year, and you put, like, one and a half percent, and all of a sudden it was like four or five percent. It's like, wait, I don't want to lose five percent. So, like,

the whole sizing issue gets very wacky. And it's almost like trying to account for an exposure of an option, let's say, or Delta adjusting an option in your book. And typically, at least if you're investing in funds, you don't have the option, to use the word again, to get out quickly. So the sizing issue presents its own challenges we've found. I mean, thankfully, the market took care of my 5% position. It's back down to 2. So the market solved at that time. So I think one of the things that might have been affecting the market is the regulatory uncertainty. How do you guys factor that in? So again, I think it's really important to do one's research and read up as much as possible on, you know, how the CFTC is thinking about this, how the SEC is thinking about this, you know, all the way up to Minuton and Trump.

And, you know, I was asked to write a policy proposal for the administration. and I think to the extent that we can take some of the fear away and focus on the way our administration can create a legacy around power to the people would be really hopeful and to understand that is obviously something that we can all get involved in and then I think something else that's helpful in terms of regulatory because it is moving so fast you need to it's changing every day to look outside the U.S.

How other countries like Switzerland and certain parts of Asia, Japan, are looking at things because at some point countries are going to have to adjust their regulation in concert with one another because otherwise there are going to be this large imbalances. So with the volatility and the regulation, I think both of them,

it's important to look at long-term trend lines and say, does this make sense in the long run? And to look at it as a long-term investment proposal while educating oneself and tweaking things along the way. And how do you know if something makes sense in the long run without the regulatory clarity? I was just going to add, to your previous question on regulation. I mean, I actually think, like most people think of it as like this uncertainty and it's scary. But in a lot of cases, is like regulation has actually been good. I mean, watch, go to YouTube and watch

Big Connect video of like this guy standing on stage screaming about how much money he's going to make everyone. It is like nauseating how fraud like it was. And like that's where the regulators got involved with like, I believe it was like a cease and desist letter. And so there's

there, at least thus far, like part of the knock on this space has been that, you know, it is filled with all these types of people. And I think that where the SEC has taken action has actually been in areas where it's like good you know that that that should not happen because there's like you know retail investors that are getting duped and so that makes sense and it seems like on the larger scale of how to characterize these as securities or not and and kind

of like the recent testimonies from CFDC chairman um young carlo and others like it's been pretty positive um like Giancarlo was he gave like a story about how his his daughter is really passionate about it and how we don't want to like, you know, the younger generation is like really interested in this. So we don't want to like, like squash their dreams, you know. And that's, you know, CFTC chairman. Like that's, that's, there's actually like, I feel like more, um, positive, although it creates uncertainty, but with uncertainty creates, you know, I think opportunity too. Okay, great. So we are running out of time, but I just wanted to see if there were any questions. Nope. Okay.

All right. Well, thank you so much.