Unchained - How NFT DAOs Could Shape the Next Blockbuster, Fund Poetry and Change VC - Ep.315

Starting point is 00:00:00 Hi, all. As you may know, a few months ago, I started a Facebook Bulletin newsletter. I'll now be opening a paid Facebook discussion group where you and other listeners of the show can discuss recent episodes, ask questions in advance, get access to special AMAs with myself and show guests, and more. Those who join now and for the next two weeks will get a special introductory price of $2.99 a month or $29.99 annually. Those who join from February 15th and onward will be charged the regular rate of $499 a month or $49999 annually. We will open up the group on the 15th one week ahead of my book launch. If you're interested in subscribing, head to laura shinn. Dot bulletin.com slash subscribe, which will be in the show notes of this episode. Again,

Starting point is 00:00:50 the link is laura shin.b bulletin.com slash subscribe. Hope to see you in the discussion group. I also have another announcement. I have a new author website. It's at laura shin.com. Please go check it out. I think it's gorgeous and it captures well everything I've been up to. From my book to the podcast to speaking and press. You can also find out all the contact information for me

Starting point is 00:01:15 depending on whether you're interested in pitching unchained, having me speak or do press, or want to sponsor the show. Again, the URL is laura shin.com. L-A-U-R-A-S-H-I-N-com. Enjoy. As you know, my book The Cryptopians comes out February 22nd. I wanted to share a blurb that Michael Casey, chief content officer at Coindesk and co-author of The Age of Cryptocurrency, wrote about it.

Starting point is 00:01:45 Michael said, Laura Shins' compelling blow-by-blow account of the remarkable birth and growth of Ethereum shows that its spectacular wealth generation was not without struggle. by Shin's telling the story of Ethereum is a grand human drama. Its lesson is that for all the talk of decentralized, code-based virtual machines, a successful crypto project's biggest challenge is that it must survive its user community's internecine conflicts and rise above the egos of its brilliant but humanly flawed founders. If that intrigues you, then pre-order the cryptopians. Idealism, greed, lies, and the making of the first big cryptocurrency craze

Starting point is 00:02:25 today at Bitley slash Cryptopians. That's B-I-T-L-Y-S-C-R-Y-P-T-O-P-I-N-S. And the book comes out for every 22nd, and again, you can pre-order it at Bitley-S-Cryptopians. Hi, everyone. Welcome to Unchained, your no-hype resource for all things crypto. I'm your host, Laura Shin, a journalist with over two decades of experience. I started covering crypto six years ago, as a senior editor at Forbes was the first mainstream media reporter to cover cryptocurrency full-time. This is the February 1st, 2022 episode of Unchained. Buy, earn, and spend crypto on the Crypto.com app. New users can enjoy zero credit card fees on crypto purchases in the first 30 days.

Starting point is 00:03:15 Download the Crypto.com app and get $25 with the code Laura. Link in the description. This episode of Unchained is brought to you. By Beefy Finance, the multi-chain yield optimizer. Beefy is the easiest way to earn more from your crypto. Deposit funds into Beefy's secure vault to auto-compound yield across 12 blockchains. Got crypto? Choose Beefy. Bosonic is the new decentralized financial market infrastructure.

Starting point is 00:03:46 Want real best execution? Want to keep your assets at your custodian? Want zero counterparty risk? You need Bosonic. Bosonic ensures fiduciary certainty for institutional digital assets trading. Today's guest is Trevor McVadrys, CEO of Dapper Collectives and founder of Friends with Benefits. Welcome, Trevor. Hi, thank you for having me.

Starting point is 00:04:12 Thanks for being here. So you used to be a DJ and you also created the famous CGI influencer, Lil Michaela. Tell us about your background and what you were doing before you got into. crypto slash NFTs slash Dow's. I typically say in these kind of like tech interviews, you know, that I have an atypical background, but I feel like folks in crypto come from all walks of life. So maybe mine is more typical than atypical. But yeah, I grew up in the Midwest.

Starting point is 00:04:40 I grew up in Davenport, Iowa, and moved to Los Angeles when I was 16. And while I was in L.A., you know, I was playing in bands and I was doing some kind of like web dev stuff, building mom and pop shop websites. And, you know, a real long story short, went to a university. football, quit and stumbled into music. I was in a rap group called Shwezy that ended up putting out a top 10 album in 2008, which was totally surreal. I never had a passport before. 23 was getting to go to Europe to play music. And in parallel, I was building software tools for myself and for other friends and artists who needed things. So I've kind of always lived at this

Starting point is 00:05:17 intersection of music and technology, really media and technology, culture industries and technology, more broadly. And I toured as a solo artist, a DJ after that band, produced music, a bunch of pop acts, played music festivals, did all the things that folks who are kind of doing full-time do. And got a phone call from some folks of Spotify saying, hey, we need someone that can translate between a bunch of Swedish engineers and the music industry. So good job at Spotify in, I think, 2011, which seems surreal now. And got to see what it's like to be a part of of a massive war and to ship a really incredible product. And from there, we're on to start Bread, which created Little Michaela and kind of a modern Disney or Marple with some virtual

Starting point is 00:06:02 celebrities. And more recently, you know, started Prince of Benefits about a year and a year ago. And yeah, let's explore that bread period a little bit. What was Bread and what was the goal with Lil Michaela? Yeah. So bread still very much exists. So the goal was really to try to create a celebrity and really scalable narrative. We started with this idea that media can be transformative that in my lifetime, I'd seen more change from, you know, television programs that have grabbed and kind of created these dominant narratives versus public policy.

Starting point is 00:06:38 So television programs like Will and Grace that are largely responsible for gay marriage in the U.S. or even probably like the Jeffersons or other programs that help shape the way Americans understand African Americans. And so the dream was to say, hey, in an era with more global issues and ever, whether it be economic or climate or pandemic, if we could create celebrity and narratives that scale like software that can touch billions, perhaps we could kind of nudge the whole world into being more empathetic or more tolerant or more effective that created the change that we want to realize.

Starting point is 00:07:09 And do you feel that you achieve that goal with little Michaela? Like, what was the impact? Yeah. I mean, I still feel like we're in the first inning. Thus far, we've had a ton of impact. I mean, 10 million plus fans across socials. Michael's release songs that have been like top of viral charts on Spotify globally. And so across all mediums, we're still images to video and audio.

Starting point is 00:07:30 We've had a ton of impact. Again, we're just getting started. The bet was really kind of on this emergent, I guess what folks are calling now, the metaverse, what I called kind of like spatial computing era. This like next shift in computing. And we always saw virtual goods, the virtual economies is being a big part of that. And so in parallel, I spent a lot of time in crypto and Web3. and we're pretty quick to embrace the NEPT thing

Starting point is 00:07:54 and really see decentralized governance and virtual economies as being a big part of enabling that next Disney or that next Marvel. And so we're just getting started. You've got a long way ahead of us and decentralizing bread and turning it into a Dow is next roadmap. So, yeah, as you just mentioned,

Starting point is 00:08:14 so DAPRA Labs acquired bread and launched DAPRA collectives from that. So why did you decide to sell to dapper? And then what is the vision for dapper collectives? Yeah, certainly. A, I've been a fan of Roehombs for a very long time. I often joked that when we were fundraising, we'd be like walking into these very serious Silicon Valley boardrooms and pitching like fake people on the internet. And I'd always feel kind of guilty. But then I'd watch a guy walk out of room who was like pitching, selling pictures of cats on the internet. And so we were kind of always the weirdos in

Starting point is 00:08:48 in these very serious boardrooms asking for large sums of money. I always felt like he was doing quite brave. I thought that the thing that Roham recognized quite quickly was that most of our world is non-fungible. And I thought that was a really unique insight and to double down and to work through the bear and to ship a product that onboarded lots of people into crypto and Web 3 was really, really compelling.

Starting point is 00:09:13 That said, you know, the acquisition came really from us raising around. We were raising a round that was going to be a little more crypto focused because we're decentralized into the company. And in talking about partners that we wanted to work with, we fell in love with flow. We wanted to build it on flow. They had bigger ambitions than just a single Dow on flow. I think they and Roham, the rest of the team, understand how impactful this stuff can be and how Dow's will be at the center of all this stuff going forward.

Starting point is 00:09:39 And so to have really incredible resources, people that are really aligned culturally, like I always kind of joke that our team is a bunch of like soft-spoken really nice, brainy people. To meet like even nicer Canadian versions of us was really compelling. And so all in all, I think it allows us to do what we want to do and to build these primitives that other folks can use and really kind of like help shape this future that we all want to see him to pass. And so that was why this came together. And so what is the vision for dapper collectives? Like what are you trying to achieve? Yeah. So, you know, we're going to be.

Starting point is 00:10:15 mainstreaming doubts as kind of vague as that sounds that the dream is to build the primitives that others can use to recognize and capture the value that they create. And that's how intentionally vague as well, because I think it's really, really big the opportunity. Folks in my world, creative people kind of joke about how people selling JPEGs for $70 million, but I think if you were to start from first principles and say, what is really valuable in the life of ours? I don't know that you'd start with like equities and bonds. You'd probably We start with art and music and media and food, these things give our lives meaning. And there have been a lot of obviously rent-seeking middlemen and platforms in the middle

Starting point is 00:10:51 of that creative process who have captured a lot of that value. And so we think Dow has can enable, you know, media companies like our own to recognize and realize that value and to make sure it close to the edges of the network. It also allows us to, like, bring, you know, our fans and our peers really into the fold. Traditionally, they've been silo. There have been Disney on one side and then Star Wars fans on the other. and every now and then Disney's calling Star Wars fans to figure out what the weather in Tadabian would be like

Starting point is 00:11:18 because they have more knowledge than the folks internally at Disney. And we think, you know, kind of blowing up those silos and bringing people under one roof and aligning incentives such that people can work together could be really, really meaningful. And hopefully solve a lot of the pain that's especially felt in media orgs, but really in any collective or any organization.

Starting point is 00:11:39 And so that's why we're thinking about collectives. People coming together, trying to realize important, things and using, you know, consensus and, you know, Web 3 and the permits that we create to organize and realize them. And so just in your vision of whatever this future is, of all these different DAOs, all these different collectives, what will they be doing? Like, what is kind of the variety of different types of DAOs that you see? Oh, gosh, they're endless.

Starting point is 00:12:09 I mean, as somebody we can probably talk about, Prince of Benefits, is kind of an easy answer to that question. But I think the really compelling stuff for people that are, especially in our industry and media, is, you know, we have a generation of kind of web two media orgs that are probably quite frustrated. I think if you're an employee at Vice or at Refinery 29, you've probably seen some stock options to appreciate tremendously. If you're an investor, you're probably quite frustrated. And if you're an operator, you're probably quite frustrated. I think that's because there clearly is demand this media and this content. and I don't know that there are effective business models.

Starting point is 00:12:45 One of the things that I've always, you know, the attention that I've always lived with, it's this idea that information wants to be free. You know, the people and ideas should be able to spread virally and touch people and change the world. But at the same time, the people that are creating those ideas should be able to make a living and feed themselves. And so I think NFTs is a primitive solve for that thing.

Starting point is 00:13:05 You know, that they allow ideas, they allow for media to be both individually owned and universally accessible. And so with that at the center of this potential business model, can we start to create primitives that incentivize people to, you know, create those assets, participate in creation of those assets, and then to see an outcome that rewards them, but also has like funds flow to a treasury that can allow this thing to exist and to continue to expand. And so, you know, in short, incentivizing people to create media assets and then making sure if they participate in that creation, they get a piece of the upside of the sale that media asset as an NFT and then fund flowing to a treasury that allows us to. or any other org to build better tooling and do things better, faster, cheaper, whatever they see fit. Yeah, you are definitely preaching to the choir as a creator and as a journalist whose career started with the internet. Like I worked at Newsweek.com. That was my first job and then the Wall Street Journal.com and then the New York Times.com. And I think roughly a decade after I started

Starting point is 00:14:07 at Newsweek.com, Newsweek was sold for a dollar. So, you know, to go from, yeah, this kind of, because also the year I started working there was the year that Newsweek had been leading this story with Monica Lewinsky and President Bill Clinton. And so it was kind of like a very cool place to be working then. And then just to see that brand kind of collapse. And not because the work wasn't good, but just because of how somehow this fallacy that information, She wants to be free was what the media companies glombed onto and they were wrong. You can charge money and people will pay for things that they want. So, you know, when Dapper Labs acquired bread and they announced Dapper Collectives,

Starting point is 00:14:53 Dapper Lab CEO, Roham Girozlu, who you've been mentioning here, told DeCrypt, quote, the space of Dau's is probably the most interesting space to us after NFTs and very complementary to the work we're doing, both with big brands as well as our own IPRAP. So how do you see NFTs and DAOs coexisting or converging or otherwise complementing each other? Yes, they're probably really simple, obvious ways, right? Like investor DAOs. You know, Flamingo DAOs, other examples, people have come together to collect and share

Starting point is 00:15:24 on the upside of the NFTs that they've built or that they've created or, pardon me, that they've bought and brought into their Dow. But beyond that, like I mentioned before, I think there are examples where NFTs as at the center of a business model that a Dow is organized around is a really important primitive that I think is yet to be unleashed on the world. And so we're really thinking about that. I often talk about how powerful it is that the D5 folks may be familiar with like a Y-Earn where if you're creating a new strategy for a vault, you can participate in the upside of that vault.

Starting point is 00:15:59 There is a world where a Dow is putting up bounties for coverage of a certain top. and people are executing against the cover set topic, whether it be in video or written form, whatever it is, and then publishing that as an NFD, and folks are collecting that because it's an important work. At WB, we sold Matthew Wall's Metaverse essay for half a million dollars, which is nuts, right? Like, it's an essay that lives for free on the internet. But I think there is obviously a collectible nature to all these things with history, people collecting time magazines, other important assets.

Starting point is 00:16:36 I think you're going to see them get fragmented. I can think of someone like yourself or even like Eric Weinstein is coming up with neologisms all the time. If you could own the first clip of a podcast as a catchy phrase as we're all going to make it or something that's become a battle cry, is that important and collectible? I think so. And so I think there's a ton of opportunity around taking media

Starting point is 00:17:01 and all the things that we're creating on the internet because all of us are creators. and allowing people to collect bits of them or parts of them. And then as you extend that, you know, all the things that we're creating and sharing online make us storytellers. And so I think a lot about what we do at Brut as kind of being this, this kind of an Uber storyteller or Uber creator. And if we can solve for ourselves,

Starting point is 00:17:24 there's lots of things that we can kind of hand down to the individual creator or a smaller creator to help enable and kind of improve their lives. And just on a technical level, for the work that Dapper Collectives is doing, will that all be on the flow blockchain? Or are these products that you'll be building for any chain or how will that work on the back end? These are all going to be on flow. Another reason I'm really excited about Dapper is that we are very excited about flow. Obviously, Deter, spearheading it is the person that invented the NFT. And so I think to be with visionary folks who could see the future and help us think about

Starting point is 00:18:02 how blockchain can be built, such as to the, you know, scalable and mainstream. streamable was a really big part of the decision. All right. So now let's talk about Friends with Benefits. Tell people what that Dow is. Yeah, wow. It's so ambitious now. It's probably hard to contain it in a couple sentences.

Starting point is 00:18:21 But Fronts the Benefits is an Ethereum-based Dow. We often talk about like a virtual city. Some people describe it as like a virtual social club where we've minted some tokens. And if you have 75 of them, you're allowed to participate in a private discord. in our governance and then attend live events around the world. Beyond that, the software products and other things that are being developed, but the nuts and bolts of it are. If you own tokens, you get to be a part of this private club or community

Starting point is 00:18:50 and participate in shaping its trajectory. So at times in the past, the entry fee to the highest level of 75 FWB was more than $10,000. Right now, it's like, slightly under $4,000. What do you say to people who criticize friends with benefits as just being an expensive or exclusive online social club or even chat group? I usually say fork it.

Starting point is 00:19:19 Like, that to me is the beauty of Web 3, is that all these things exist so that people can kind of build their reality. That said, I can understand how it can be a contentious thing. And one of the things that our community has done is create fellowship programs and other programs that make sure that like underrepresented people in the space are part of our community. And so my opinions haven't always been in alignment with the community. And I think that's the beauty of the Dow in my day-to-day life. I'm a dictator in FWB. I'm just another mere citizen of this virtual city who thinks that, you know, creating robust, sensible boundaries are one of the

Starting point is 00:19:59 most important parts to defining a community. And I think what what the community has said is, we agree-ish. Like we want there to be boundaries that make us a space where people can have conversations they might be able to have in other places. We want a space where people are challenged and their ideas are elevated. But we also want it to be a space where anyone who could improve this space can exist. And so that's why things like fellowships come to past. That's why we see lots of people in the community like, you know, buying NFTs on Zora in FWB

Starting point is 00:20:29 so those artists can join other things like that. And so in short, I understand the concerns. And I think that the beauty of Web3 is you can fork this stuff and build whatever kind of better thing you want to build. And so when you look at the applications for the fellowships, what kinds of qualities are you prioritizing? That's a great question. I wish I could answer it accurately. We have a fellowships committee. One of the things that's cool about, you know, FWB is these different subcommittees.

Starting point is 00:20:56 There are local city groups. There's a membership committee that's vetting anyone who applies to join. And there's a fellowships committee that's actually, you know, headed up by a few folks, one of them being Pat Locke, who's a very influential artist, DJ, and producer. And those folks are looking for lots of things. I think most importantly, they're trying to create a community that reflects the real world. I think there are, you know, definitely folks who got a head start, but, you know, women, people of color, other folks who might not make up the at WB community yet that we can identify

Starting point is 00:21:24 and bring in and bring it up to speed. We absolutely want to do that. And at the moment, how many members are at that highest, here. That's a good question. It's constantly evolving. Usually around 2000 that are in FWB and hang out. I probably shouldn't fire Discord and look now because it may slow this thing down.

Starting point is 00:21:43 We'll say it's all right. Yeah, no. Yeah, definitely don't want to cause us any technical issues. So since FWB votes are one token, one vote, they can be dominated by whales. Do you think that model should be changed or are you having to be? with that model or, you know, what do you think of that fact? Yeah. And so some, some votes are one token, one vote. Other other votes are, you know, one token, one account, one vote. I'm interested in all of these little petri dishes of governance trying lots of different things. That's one of the things I'm

Starting point is 00:22:21 most excited about in Web3 is we kind of get to speed run. Yeah, Wall Street and yeah, the global art market, but like more importantly, governance. I've seen some cool things around, you know, one account one vote, that does open you up to civil attacks and some other things. And one of the things that we've kind of innovated on that I'm quite proud of is this proof of raver concept where people that come to our live events, they're token gated. So if you come out and dance, you effectively validated that you're a real person. And so there's a world where if we're throwing enough events, we effectively have this like civil proof proof of raver list that we can then have vote on things.

Starting point is 00:23:00 And so there are lots of tradeoffs. And I think trying to build novel solutions, like throwing fun parties, people want to come to, where you can kind of validate humanity with honey versus with vinegar or another kind of creepier ways that may be being funded out there. People may have talked about on Twitter a whole bunch. We can solve for some of these things and build better governance models because it's all a jump ball right now. It's all too-be defined. And I do know that at the start, I think you had somewhere in the ballpark of 10% of all the FWB, tokens, what percentage do you have now?

Starting point is 00:23:33 That's a good question. Providing liquidity means IL for days. And so I don't know. I think probably somewhere in the ballpark of 5%, but again, it fluctuates. And is that something that people just, you know, seem okay with because you are the creator? Or do you see kind of, you know, more, I guess, initiatives to try to democratize things even further? I would love for the tokens to be as democrat as possible. I think thus far, what we've tried to express to the community, I think what they've expressed back is that, like,

Starting point is 00:24:09 we're going to iterate quickly and change things that don't feel right. And so we do these things called seasons. So every season, we just come up with a theme and we say, hey, in the previous quarter, previous three months, these things went well and these things went poorly. And to trust things went poorly, we're going to do X. And double down the things went well, we're going to do X. And so I think one of the things that we've had a lot of with is not trying to set, you know, really fixed ways to understand how this thing will look. We want to be able to change. We want to be able to tweak things. We want to be able to build, like, the most sustainable, resilient FWB we can. Even if it did start as kind of a weekend

Starting point is 00:24:43 ha-ha project. And so what are some of those things that went well? And then what are some of the things that you guys have been trying to improve upon? Yeah, I think live events have gone really well. You know, candidly, we've been able to bring in a bunch of really special people. Alex Zhang is the mayor of FWB. And he really oversees his day to day. And he was very bullish on live events. I think my crypto history and scars of the past have led me to be wary of things that are off

Starting point is 00:25:12 chain. But there was a clear demand. People had built really meaningful relationships in discords and on telegrams and on Twitter. And they wanted to hang out in person and hug each other. And so throwing events that were, I think, that looked and felt different than a lot of crypto events and, you know, bring people together in spaces. It's been incredibly bullish for our community. People want to be a part of those things. Beyond that, I would say the fellowships program has been incredibly well received.

Starting point is 00:25:39 People have really enjoyed that. We've tried other things, even things as simple as like Discord channels in the era of Clubhouse when there were lots of really hype clubhouse, like say Elon Musk in a Clubhouse channel, whatever it was. we would create these Discord channels, people would kind of like chat about it happening in real time. And okay, fine, not that compelling. And so we shut it down and forget about it. But, you know, beyond that, every day is an experiment. Right now, some of the people in the community are making an Irma-Mate drink, an FWB brand of drink. It was an FWB festival coming to pass.

Starting point is 00:26:17 So the community takes this thing wherever they want to take it. And I have seen that currently FWB has a $53 million market cap. So I'm assuming that's sort of like what your treasury is. Maybe I'm wrong about that. That to me, I think, is the token price times the amount of tokens that exist. So a million tokens times 53 bucks. It's probably how Coin Gecko is getting that. And so what then is the treasury?

Starting point is 00:26:51 for the Dow? I need to go look as far as USDA terms, but we did a I think you may have seen the community voted on a, what's the proper term, a treasury diversification where Andrews and Horowitz pays capital,

Starting point is 00:27:07 Legion, others, kindred came in and purchased FWB tokens that were locked up in exchange for USC. And so in that treasury, you'll find Ethereum, actually some whale, which could be a,

Starting point is 00:27:21 cool thing you discuss as well is different at dows doing treasury diversifications i think the kind of hedge against outperformance either or the kind of larger communities at whole and so in our treasury you'll have some whale some ethereum some us dc and maybe some some air drop shitcoins and and we just just describe the whale in more detail yeah so for folks that aren't aware of whale but early on our journey there weren't ton of like community tokens. And it was largely ourselves and a whale, which was started by, I believe, a pseudonymous character named Whale Shark who wanted to create this token that, um, could have a say or participate in all this NFT collecting.

Starting point is 00:28:07 And so Whale Shark had a ton of really important stuff. And we were really excited about the ways they were exploring their community. And they actually doing things that were pretty different than what we had done. And so, um, actually Cooper Curley on our team and Whale Shark had known each other. other and then talked about, hey, maybe we should float it to the communities of doing kind of a token swap. And so, you know, we can hold X amount of whale. You can hold X amount of FWB. And, you know, that way as this thing plays out, we kind of have this incentive to go support each other and help each other. Okay. It's interesting. One other aspect of all this that I find fascinating

Starting point is 00:28:46 is the VCs that you mentioned that now are participating in Driesen. As you mentioned, as you mentioned, Legion, a variant fund. So what is the purpose of having venture capital involved in this, basically like a social club, Dow? You're asking a very good question. And I think one of the questions that the community asked over and over and over again, it's like, yeah, they want to be involved. Why?

Starting point is 00:29:09 And so one of the things that was very intriguing for me was traditionally in my life, I've had to walk into like a boardroom full of, you know, 13, you know, scary. impressive people and pitch them as to why they should give me money. And I think for the first time of my life, what we had, I think the first of my life, we had BCs pitching the community. So we had a Discord meeting where investors like Brian Watson from Spark and Chris Dixon and Steve Jang, you know, Tina from Pace and others came in and basically made their case. And I don't want to speak on behalf of them, but I think some of the things the community really recognized and really resonated with was, you know, these weren't trading funds that we're going to like buy tokens

Starting point is 00:29:55 and dump on us. They're interested in holding these things for, you know, four to seven years minimum. They've got quite a bit of expertise in building organizations. They know how to navigate some of the things that might come up, whether it's hiring or regulatory or X, Y, or Z. And more than anything else, I think the community vived with them, which is maybe, I don't know how you would build a taxonomy of vibes. But like Steve, Steve, Zhang especially had really interesting, like good snacks. Like one of the community asks is what snacks do you guys

Starting point is 00:30:27 like throughout the day? And so Steve, his snacks resonated and the community was like, we like this guy. He gets it. We want to give him more. And so, look, these are some of the novelties and like the interesting things that come up with direct democracy is, you know,

Starting point is 00:30:43 people having a say and sometimes snacks weigh the vote. Wait, like you mean like actual physical snacks that he's munching on throughout the day? Yeah, so it's a discord, so it can be kind of ship hosty, right? And people were like, okay, what do you want to do? You guys seem shady. I don't know if I should trust you.

Starting point is 00:31:00 And they dissuaded a lot of those things, I think, made really compelling cases for how they add value. And by the end, it was like, all right, so you guys are saying the right things. But as a real litmus test, like, what do you do in the weekends? And, you know, what do you enjoy for snacks? And, you know, I think some people could have said, like, seeing as that I'm on the carnivore diet and trying to run a 100-mile marathon, I only eat, you know, X, Y, and Z. But no, these are at the B-B kids. And so an appreciation for, like, Japanese kawaii snacks or other rare snacks made them think that these folks were real heads. And so, yeah, having a good snack game can get you exposure to a Dow in this wild world. We're being apart. I love it. I find this hilarious. So as you mentioned, Alexander Zhang is dubbed the mayor of FWB. And he said actually in an interview that he used to hate crypto and the people in it.

Starting point is 00:32:01 And I guess he obviously feels very differently about F2B. So who are the people that are involved in FDB, obviously besides the BCs that we mentioned, like just in general, kind of the everyday person that's in it? Like, are they people who? who are normal crypto people? Are they non-crypto people who just heard about this? Or like, what's the mix? Yeah, I think one of the things that FWB is kind of been known for is having quite a different makeup.

Starting point is 00:32:28 I'd imagine for most of FWB, if you were to say, you know, what's a zero-knowledge proof? They'd be like, I don't really know. And I don't know what they're interested. I think, you know, what really spoke to them was this world where you could create value for people that are putting it into the ether. And so as a result, a lot of them are artists, a lot of them are musicians.

Starting point is 00:32:51 A lot of them are folks that have kind of lived adjacent to technology, and maybe not in it full time. And then there is a good cross-section of like pure technologists, I think, want exposure to people they wouldn't find at like a traditional crypto conference. Some of the most vibrant channels in FWB are like the parenting and skincare channels. And so, you know, the selfies and things. fits channels. Like as much as NFT general chat goes off, people are as interested in figuring out how to be better parents. And there's something about the signal to noise ratio in a group of people

Starting point is 00:33:27 that all have ownership in a thing that really kind of increases the signal and reduces the noise. And so there's all kinds of little magic this stuff has clicked up that I can't put my finger on and definitely can't take credit for. But I think one of them really is a high signal to noise ratio in all of these little subsets and little mini burrows inside of our virtual. city. Yeah, I guess the way you're talking, it sort of makes me think of like how people have their crypto, sorry, their Twitter lists. And if you could just kind of like have that one contained list as its own, you know,

Starting point is 00:34:01 chat group that then has its own channels, I guess it's sort of what it's like. Anyway, all right. I was like like a group chat. Like if you had hugged most of those people in that Twitter list and there was kind of some, there were some kind of like real interactions that kind of tied you all together and made you want to go above and beyond responding to how to help a child that's teething. That's how I would describe it. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Because yeah, it starts offline, but yeah, you're right then, or online, but then it goes offline, which I find very interesting and fun. All right. So in a moment,

Starting point is 00:34:38 we're going to talk about some of the questions around FWB. But first, a quick word from the sponsors who make this show possible. BOSonic is the new decentralized financial market infrastructure. BOSonic eliminates counterparty credit and settlement risk for institutions. Do you want to gain maximum capital efficiency with the lowest possible risk? Do you want to separate custody from liquidity provision? Do you want to eliminate opening accounts and funding at exchanges? Do you want to avoid bilateral credit and bilateral settlement movements with market makers?

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Starting point is 00:36:50 including Bitcoin, and earn up to 14% on stable coins. With the crypto.com visa card, you can spend your crypto anywhere. Enjoy up to 8% cash back instantly, plus 100% rebates for your Netflix, Spotify, and Amazon Prime subscriptions, and zero annual fees. the crypto.com app and get $25 with the code Laura. Link in the description. Back to my conversation with Trevor. So I have been wondering, are there concerns that FWB could be a security? Because just based on the definition of a security is applied to crypto tokens, if it's an investment contract with the expectation of profits dependent on the efforts of an identifiable party, then wouldn't,

Starting point is 00:37:40 that the value of this token FWB be determined by the group members of FWB? It's a good question and probably one I would leave up to the lawyers. But in our understanding and I'm talking with lawyers, really what we're offering is a ticket, right? And so a ticket into the club. And oftentimes tickets have like secondary speculative value, but they all kind of have this utility of coming into the club. And so I'm definitely not a lawyer.

Starting point is 00:38:08 and this is not legal advice or financial advice or whatever other disclaimer I'm supposed to give. But I've talked to some and that's how they describe it. And so then when FWB is like trying to figure out what it's going to do or not do, are there any particular activities that the group either tries to discourage or stay away from in order to not cross any of those lines? Yeah, certainly. I mean, it's a very common thought like, hey, we should start a fund from FWB. and we're pretty quick to be like, hey, that probably feels like a rate notary no-no.

Starting point is 00:38:45 I don't think that we want to be in the business of that. And so we don't do that. I think what we try to do is, like, there are events. And some of those events happen on Discord and some of them happen in IRL. But having those tickets in the form of tokens allows you to participate in those things. And so FDB did recently publish a post on its plans for 2022. too. And one of the more interesting aspects was you mentioned you're going to have an FWB directory. Can you describe that and also the technology that will enable that?

Starting point is 00:39:17 Yeah. And really, I should have like Mike Boj and Dexter and others who in the product team speak to that more accurately because I'll probably flub it here. But at the core of it is like we have a lot of interesting folks. You know, throughout the years, anyone from Virgil Ablo to Holly Herdenen, you know, is participating in conversation. And I think, the idea that you could more accurately find these folks, engage with them, and figure out things to collaborate on. It's always been compelling. It's quite tricky with the kind of limited service area you have inside of Discord and building Discord bots. But beyond that, I think, you know, reputation on chain is important and people are thinking a lot about that. And so we've

Starting point is 00:39:56 an opportunity to kind of create a membership directory that says, hey, here are the things that I've expressed that I'm great at. And here are things that I participated in. Here are things that, you know, my on-chain activity says I have like don't own my expertise in and then allow books to connect dots and try to do cool stuff together. I think that's actually one of the cool things. One of the coolest things to me is, you know, stuff like sound, that XYZ, that music connect and T platform largely born out of FWV, people hanging out and meeting in there and saying, hey, we should build stuff. And so it'd be amazing if you could facilitate more of those interactions and create more teams and partnerships to go build cool stuff.

Starting point is 00:40:32 Yeah, something that I thought was so cool is that the identity badges are non-transferable NFTs, and they'll just dynamically evolved based on the activity. Is that like an automated thing, or is it, must be automated if it's based on your activity? Yeah, and I imagine part of it will be automated, maybe some of you also. Candle, Bodge and DECs have been kind of chipping away at that, and I haven't been nearly as involved as I should be in that product stuff. but I can do a little follow-up with you and study some notes. I imagine why it will be automatic as it's on-chain,

Starting point is 00:41:05 and there's probably a pretty simple way as to structure those things. Yeah, I just, I think it was really cool. So, you know, we've been talking about kind of like issues of exclusivity, inclusivity, and obviously recently in the news, there were tweets by one of your co-founders, Cooper Turley. These were nine-year-old tweets, and so he was probably about 16 at the time he made the tweets, but they did express racist and homophobic sentiments. And FWB ended up announcing that it was removing him for a minimum of two seasons. I did notice there were a lot of

Starting point is 00:41:42 critical comments on the Twitter announcement calling the thread sanctimonious, criticizing FWB for punishing him for actions from almost 10 years ago or saying things like these punishments amounted to cancel culture. What's your response? You know, I never want to speak on behalf of FWB, but I think, you know, what I was really proud of is that FWB had plans in place for any of these kind of things. The code of conduct that was built by a three members that Cooper participated in, the community made decision, and that was that. Now, as far as me personally, you know, I can't really speak to the, you know, how the comments be interpreted as being homophobic, but as far as the racist stuff, people, I think they're,

Starting point is 00:42:28 But the things people were really upset with were him using the N-word, you know, saying nigger and tweets. And as a black person, I know Cooper extremely well. I've known him for years. And there's not a racist bone in his body. Did a stupid white kid say N-words because he likes listening to rap music, in my opinion, absolutely yes. And I think what I wanted to see happen was someone who made some big mistakes, pay their debts, and then get reintegrated into a community that can contribute to, to make it better for a lot of them. those marginalized groups. And I think that's why any of us or a lot of us do this stuff is we see an opportunity to help people that could use that help. And Cooper, while he can write some like silly tweets,

Starting point is 00:43:09 you know, as people get upset all these kind of fortune cookie tweets where he's talking about how Dowellers are going to change the world and maybe hyperbolic. The young person who I think really believes a lot of those things. And so what I love to see is Cooper pay his debts, get back and get involved and contribute and help people. And I think that's the path that he's on. And I'm proud at the BB for setting the tone and creating a playbook that hopefully others can use and improve to make sure that we all feel safe and that we all feel heard and then we all want to participate inside of this thing that we're all co-creating. Yeah, and the homophobic part came from, I think, a coin desk article, but they didn't actually

Starting point is 00:43:48 show those tweets. So maybe that was misinformation or something. I think it was correct. He was using, you know, an F word, a slur that, I didn't want to speak on it because, you know, I'm not queer. I don't respect that community and I don't want to interpret how it would have been felt by others who are. But as far as the racism and stuff goes, I can speak to that. Okay. So kind of on the same note, I did see that back when you were with Bred doing Lil Mikaela, New York Magazine reported that Bred only accepted venture capital from firms with a woman or person of color in a position to write them a check. the magazine also said that you and your then co-founder Sarah Deku

Starting point is 00:44:28 said that you hoped that the impact you would have was similar to the impact of, well, yeah, you mentioned this earlier, Will and Grace. And I obviously am very well aware as a woman, myself, and as a woman of color, that the crypto and NFT space have been criticized as not being very diverse. So what do you think can and should be done about that?

Starting point is 00:44:51 I mean, to me, the best thing that can be done is onboarding and kind of handholding as many people as you possibly can into the space. I think the demographics are such that if you go out and you bring in the best people, the most talented people you can find, you know, you're going to be identifying people of color and women because they're really freaking talented. And so one of the things that I think people talk about is like how difficult user interfaces are for a lot of these things. And I think, you know, that can be kind of paternalistic in that the idea that people can't pick these things up if they're, you know, kind of shown how to do it to me is incorrect. And I think it actually could sell there's really nice, each one, each one dynamic. So what I often do is, you know, just sit down with people and show them how to, you get onboard into Web 3.

Starting point is 00:45:35 Here's how to install Metamask. Here's how to install Phantom. You know, here's how to like figure out what this crazy flow blockchain is, what we're building, how to buy a top shot. And I do a lot of that stuff. I think that's the kind of tactical on the ground stuff. But beyond that, I think some of the stuff that we've done at Dapper and at WB by creating products that are, that are, you know, maybe more compelling to folks outside of traditional

Starting point is 00:45:58 finance or technology, whether it's buying MBA highlights or coming to parties is a great way to pull people into this pipeline and get them. Yeah, that's true. Yeah. Because it's, it's just like more integrated into kind of their normal activity. Whereas I feel like some of the more financial stuff, it just feels a little bit overwhelming for kind of an average person. Certainly. You have such an interesting background.

Starting point is 00:46:28 I mean, we only glossed over it at the beginning. But because you have so much experience in the music space and with, you know, friends of yours who kind of started out as, you know, just an everyday person who then became household names as musicians, I wanted to ask you. you know, what your thoughts were about this passion economy or creator economy. And before we actually get into this question, can you just define those terms as you see them? Oh, man. So I think largely attributed to Legion, who's defined this kind of like passion and creator economy. And as I understand it, when it was originally defined, it really was designed to represent creators who were now trying to build businesses around their output in ways that the kind of more mainstream platforms wouldn't have enabled Instagrams, TikToks, YouTube of the world.

Starting point is 00:47:19 I'll just focus up like Patreon, OnlyFans, Substack. And I kind of see them as like Web 2.5 is like these interstitials where it was clear that consumers and fans wanted to buy things directly from creators that they liked. And there weren't very effective tools for doing so. I think what we've seen with Web 3 is the evolution of that, where it's like, yeah, I want to buy something from this creator that I love. but I also want to have ownership of that object. I like to be able to have a say

Starting point is 00:47:49 and what this person is doing. And I think that's what people are expanding on now. It's become such a compelling experience that you've seen communities, whether it's board apes or FWB or whale sharks, whatever it is, really, really pay attention and the needle move quite quickly.

Starting point is 00:48:07 And so what problems do you think that this technology will solve for creators and kind of what are some of the more creative things that you expect to see them do that wasn't possible with Web 2 or even 2.5? Yeah, I mean, I would say the really exciting things I'm pumped on are like creators being able to buy a home or start a family. Things that should not be crazy. Just get back to square one, be able to make a living.

Starting point is 00:48:38 It's a sad reality that a lot of our favorite creators are really skating by and really on this treadmill where they have to crank out enough output to stay top of mind so they can capture attention. And platforms can still add to get that intention and they can get a small cut. What I'm looking forward to is people creating interesting economies. I often joke that when I was first playing in bands, like hardcore bands, you know, we had to decide between a drummer who was 16 and, like, not very good at playing the drums. and I don't know who was 14 and really good at playing the drums, but none of us could drive and the 16-year-old could drive. And so we had to make a decision and there were trade-offs.

Starting point is 00:49:17 And we brought him into the band and we were able to play other places. I often think that, like, you know, creators down the road are going to see someone like Blau, someone who has a traditional finance background. You can think really uniquely about the economies he can build around his own, you know, DJ and his music and think, man, as part of our band, as part of our team, you know, maybe we need public relations, but maybe more importantly, we need like a community manager with like tokenomics shops who can help us think about how we can take our output and build economies against it such that we can not only survive but thrive. And so I think

Starting point is 00:49:53 you're going to see the makeup of creative organizations and bands and creators change as people recognize there's a lot of value to be captured here if they have the tools and the know-how to realize it. And what are some of the things that you feel, the technology, could do someday for creators that are not yet possible that, you know, you hope would be developed, I guess, in the next year or two. Yeah, I think in the next year or two, you're definitely going to see, like, narratives that are not only, you know, precipatory, but, you know, potentially shaped by fandoms. So you can imagine a world where a Spider-Man comic is being unveiled panel by panel. And then choose your own adventure style where governance token is deciding the outcome

Starting point is 00:50:38 of this narrative. I also think allowing communities to participate inside of your media is something I'm pretty excited about. So oftentimes there are YouTubers that are finding editors and I think there's ways to engage in community to participate in the edit of what they're doing. And as that, you know, as it performs well, having them participate in sharing some of that have value and upside.

Starting point is 00:50:57 And then the really simple stuff, I think there's opportunities for NFTs to create markets for creative works that otherwise might not have had markets. So my friend David Rudnick talks a lot about poetry, and I couldn't agree more. I think we live in a world where the value that poets create is really not reflected in their quality of life or the way they live. And so I think the idea that I could participate in kind of collecting poetry,

Starting point is 00:51:29 or different written text, and I could potentially speculate with a time, time arising this 30 to 100 years versus, you know, the really kind of short windows we have now in an attention economy where we don't know if buying will be here tomorrow or if Flickr will be here tomorrow, I think really changes the game. And so the major things for me are creating economies around markets and markets for things otherwise wouldn't have had them like poetry or contemporary dance choreography or whatever you'd like. And then the flip side of that is allowing capital to think with longer time horizons because we have decentralized networks that are going to exist for far longer than Flickr or any of the other kind of like graveyards of digital media

Starting point is 00:52:13 companies of the last 20 years. And so for the poetry and you mentioned music and also the choreographed dance moves, like what does that look like? Obviously the NFTs that have taken off so far really tend to be visual, you know, either art or video. So what do NFTs look like when it's applied to something different like poetry or dance? Yeah, I mean, I think it's going to take a market maker to come out and signify that these things have value. But, you know, the poetry went into me is pretty straight ahead. Platforms like Zora that allow you to mint text and then, you know, collect and trade that text. if someone is able to create a work, you know, and have that work gain a ton of cultural significance

Starting point is 00:53:01 and that work has some provenance on chain, I imagine people are going to want to collect that. And I think, you know, the kind of really obvious ways, I imagine the kind of point of entry will be, you know, kind of mean neologisms, whether it's stuff like we're all going to make it or, you know, you got rugged or things that feel more crypto-native. then expanding out into, you know, whatever 2023's equivalent of bling, bling is, right? Like these slang terms that capture and kind of like rise from cultural zeitgeist into becoming mainstream. And if you can kind of collect that and own that, I imagine it would inspire others to come up with other phrases or ideas that could be collected.

Starting point is 00:53:40 As far as contemporary dance, I mean, it's clear that like dance trends on TikTok are really important. If you're someone who's able to shape that, if you're someone who's working at a ballet, who's doing really impressive works. I'd like to hope that in the near future, people recognize how important that stuff is and they want to put it inside of their wallet because it will become a status symbol of a different kind

Starting point is 00:54:02 and they can play status games that maybe have a more historical event than an astronaut floating through space or whatever is trending out on open sea. And, you know, obviously you did work at Spotify. So what do you kind of see happening when you look at something like Sound X, Y, Z, which you mentioned before, you know, like an NFT version of music, gaining popularity against the current models for consuming music.

Starting point is 00:54:31 I love a lot of folks at Spotify and I love Dan. And I think, like, what I'm excited about in music and empties is just another outlet for creativity. I think when you've seen certain artists really thrive, the kind of Billy Eilishes of the world, who have made music that's kind of genreless, that can. live across playlist that is built for kind of a certain type of listening experience. I think in TikTok you've seen the same. These mediums allow for certain artists to thrive. And what's great for me is I often, you know, while at Spotify,

Starting point is 00:55:02 we talk about how myself as an artist, I always knew that I had fans that would spend, you know, maybe one or two that spent $10,000 on a release. And I'm sure plenty that would spend nothing on it. But by, you know, charging the same fee for all of them, there are probably some inefficiencies there, right? And so I think what you're seeing is more experimentation is going to allow for artists to find different ways to capture as much of the value they can in the work. And so out of all the different kind of NFTs at the moment, what are your favorites or which ones are you watching? I mean, I'm a huge fan of the folks at Catalog. I think they're doing really great stuff.

Starting point is 00:55:40 And they have a really great curatorial ear as far as music and NFTs go. Sound, I'm very inspired by as well. and I guess, you know, disclaimer, investor in both, primarily because we're all talking about how to solve this music pain point, especially in real time. There's a marketplace on this Solana form function. I'm really pumped on. I kind of see it as like an Etsy, you know, kind of more indie space for artists to create work that otherwise might feel out of place contextually in like an open sea or a swarm of PFP projects or something like that. And beyond that, like huge fans of the coordinate team. I think thinking about different models for compensating people is a really fun design space.

Starting point is 00:56:21 We're all working in different ways. I don't know that getting a check every two weeks that standardized is like the way it needs to look. So anyone who's thinking about that stuff, people who are saying, hey, here are norms that were created in the industrial era. I think we're doing things differently now. Maybe we could approach this piece differently as well. So it's really wide open. And that's the joy and maybe kind of the pain of Web 3 is just trying to keep up and all these novel ideas and trying to make sense of what's real and what's graft. So obviously after this last fall seeing the Constitution Dow just kind of come up out of nowhere, catch on very quickly.

Starting point is 00:57:00 I think a lot of people are expecting to see a lot more interesting and crazy initiatives out of Dow's this coming year. What are your thoughts on where you think Dow's could go this year? Yeah, I think, you know, I'm intrigued heading into some midterm elections in the states how people will think about using DAOs to potentially shape public sentiment or have influence in the outcomes of political elections. You know, I've been impressed watching Coin Center and seemingly unknown lobbyists in D.C. raise awareness about crypto and Web 3. And I think as folks recognize that there's a couple trillion dollars that have flowed into this new influential group of young people primarily, they might want to kind of bend their will towards those folks. And so I think, you know, there's a lot of discontent and, you know, latent discontent in this country that could be mobilized by engaging with Web Through Community.

Starting point is 00:57:54 And so that's one thing I'm excited about for Dow is, you know, governance informing macro governance, especially around things like climate that I'm quite passionate about. Beyond that, I do think the kind of not so novel ability to raise dollars quite quickly for causes, whether it be buying a constitution or other things, isn't going away anytime soon. And so I think you'll see more attempts to raise dollars to do really novel things. I'm hoping it lends itself more towards like open sourcing dialysis versus like, I don't know, buying rare video games. but that's the kind of stuff that I'm really excited by for Dallas is like governance, thinking about new, a future of work stuff, and then if you're going to like pool a bunch of dollars, can use them effectively to create real world impact. Huh.

Starting point is 00:58:42 Well, like, yeah, when you talk about the Dallas thing, I mean, I guess that would assume some kind of specialized knowledge or working with people who have that specialized knowledge. So is it just more like a fundraising effort to then connect to the right people or like what would something like that look like? I think that's, you know, one of the major challenges, right? But when we get into kind of buy out, these are all hypothetical, um, far outside my pay grade. I think we've joked about on Twitter, like, you know, buying the rights to, um, you know, medications and open sourcing them, um, through Dow's. But there are all kinds of challenges in that and bringing it to practice in real life. But I think pooling capital is, you know,

Starting point is 00:59:22 it seems quite silly to folks in crypto because Ethereum flies around, I always fly around for zombie JPEGs every day. But being able to pull that capital is often one of the most difficult parts of realizing any of these kind of more outlandish moonshot ideas. And so if you can kind of drum up support and you have these giant coordination mechanisms like Twitter or something with a layer of capital on top of them, you can do more than just, you know, show up and like flash dance and like a flash mob and like early 2000s. you actually can put that capital together and like try to change something systemically.

Starting point is 01:00:01 And so that's, that is the directionally what I'm thinking about. It would be identifying talent, hiring them and realizing things. It could be as simple as saying, hey, there's a really rare illness. And, you know, the medication costs $10,000 a pill. And we could probably buy it $50 million. And maybe it only helps 100 people a year, but change their lives. So, you know, that's the kind of stuff that's far outside of my pay grade. But I think the ability to pool capital is meaningful and novel.

Starting point is 01:00:29 And I think it feels, you know, it doesn't feel quite that novel to us. We've been in WebPree for a long time, but for folks outside of it, it's a big deal. And finally, for social tokens, which I think are very relevant creators, what are you kind of looking forward to this coming year? Like, where do you think those are going? Yeah. I mean, there are seemingly lots of platforms and protocols that are, you know, taking on, I think what a lot of folks always talk about, which is like, you know, the stock

Starting point is 01:00:59 market for rappers or whatever it is. There is, you know, some, some, some demand for speculating around talent or kind of having, allowing folks to participate in markets that they understand, you know, probably better than like a Golden Sacks executive. I do think that NFTs have an opportunity to kind of like step on into the community token for something to turf and maybe shape what that looks like as well. You kind of see some of that with the PFP projects where if you hold an NFT, you need to participate inside of discourse and other kind of like governance in a different way.

Starting point is 01:01:31 And where I'm kind of most intrigued is seeing how people can extend some of these certain benefits on chain versus kind of the easy stuff. You know, I think it's great to say if you hold this token, you can come backstage forever. But I like to see people kind of extend and maybe challenge themselves such that like, hey, if I live in the right regulatory environment, can I allow you guys to principate in the creation of this tour and the upside of the ticket sales? But that's all, you know, pipe-frey-me stuff.

Starting point is 01:02:01 We'll see if that comes to pass. All right. Well, this has been such a fascinating conversation. Where can people learn more about you and your work? Oh, man. I'm generally just kind of like trolling and shit posting on the internet. But if you want to participate some of that, it's W-H-A-T-D-O-T-C-B.

Starting point is 01:02:21 what.c.c. on most of them. And then, yeah, if you want to email me, you can just do Trevor. McFedgeries at dapperlabs.com. Perfect. All right. Well, thank you so much for coming on Unchained. Laura, I'm pleasure. Thank you very much. Thanks so much for joining us today. To learn more about Trevor, Dapper Collectives, and Friends with Benefits, check out the show notes for this episode. Unchained is produced by me, Laura Shin, with help from Anthony Youne, Daniel Ness, Mark Murdoch, Shishonk, and CLK transcription. Thanks for listening.

Unchained - How NFT DAOs Could Shape the Next Blockbuster, Fund Poetry and Change VC - Ep.315

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