Unchained - How Osmosis Is Trying to Improve the Crypto User Experience - Ep.357

Episode Date: May 31, 2022

Sunny Aggarwal, co-founder of Osmosis Labs, talks about how Osmosis is being built, the innovations that are coming, the reasons to use app chains, and much more. Show highlights: how Sunny got into crypto  how the DAO hack turned him off Ethereum at first  how the scaling issues with Ethereum got him interested in the Cosmos vision of app-chains why he is interested in Proof of Stake what the vision of Cosmos is how Sunny compares the evolution of blockchains with human evolution why he thinks that Cosmos integrates the best of Bitcoin and Ethereum networks why he thinks that having more than one Proof of Work chain is fundamentally insecure which three technologies are necessary for Cosmos to succeed what IBC and the Cosmos SDK do why Sunny decided to build Osmosis  how automated market makers are massively underexplored why UX is such a priority for the Osmosis team why Sunny does not want to list the OSMO token on other exchanges why Osmosis has a curated dex as well as a permissionless one how Osmosis governance works  how security is provided on Osmosis what superfluid staking is how CosmWasm helps Osmosis compete with centralized exchanges how Osmosis is solving frontrunning with threshold encryption why the Osmosis team chose Axelar for bridging whether Yuga Labs could have used an app chain    Thank you to our sponsors! Crypto.com: https://crypto.onelink.me/J9Lg/unconfirmedcardearnfeb2021 Beefy Finance: https://beefy.finance/   EPISODE LINKS Sunny Aggarwal Twitter: https://twitter.com/sunnya97 LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/sunnya97/   COSMOS What is Cosmos: https://v1.cosmos.network/intro Cosmos whitepaper: https://v1.cosmos.network/resources/whitepaper CosmWasm: https://cosmwasm.com/ Cosmos IBC: https://www.coinbase.com/es/cloud/discover/dev-foundations/ibc-protocol#:~:text=The%20Cosmos%20ecosystem%20has%20a,protocol%20(IBC)%20was%20created. Cosmos SDK: https://v1.cosmos.network/sdk OSMOSIS  Twitter: https://twitter.com/OsmosisZone Website: https://osmosis.zone/ Superfluid staking: https://medium.com/osmosis/osmosis-superfluid-staking-launch-feb-28-45f8e43064af Osmosis Vision: https://medium.com/osmosis/vision-for-osmosis-e68e796ff1c2 Threshold Encryption: https://medium.com/zero-knowledge-validator/privacy-in-cosmos-defi-edition-event-summary-8cafda021aa6#:~:text=Threshold%20encryption%2C%20applied%20by%20Osmosis,of%20votes%20required%20for%20consensus. Osmosis Governance: https://docs.osmosis.zone/overview/governance.html   Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

heads up everyone this episode was recorded before the recent meltdown and relaunch of terra so if you hear us talking about us t as if it's still a thing that's why also this is the last episode with a long-time producer on the show dan nuss who actually began working in unchanged because he reached out as a fan he's been here through a long period of change and growth and supported me in numerous ways it's terribly ironic that i have to record this with my Apple earbuds, since Dan always did a lot to make me and the guests sound amazing. It's also ironic that I can't make a video because the Airbnb where I'm staying has such terrible Wi-Fi, because Dan is at heart, a video person. However, I and everyone at Unchained wish him the best. And now on to the show. Hi, everyone. Welcome to Unchained. You're a no-hype resource for all things, I'm your host Laura Shin, author of The Cryptopians. I started covering crypto seven years ago, and as the senior editor at Forbes was the first

mainstream media reporter to cover cryptocurrency full-time. This is the May 31st, 2022 episode of Unchained. This episode of Unchained is brought to you by Beefy Finance, the multi-chain yield optimizer. Beefy is the easiest way to earn more from your crypto. Deposit funds into Beefy's secure vaults. to auto compound yields across 12 blockchains. Got crypto? Choose beefy.

With the crypto.com app, you can buy, earn, and spend crypto in one place. Download and get $25 with the code, Laura. Link in the description. Today's guest is Sunny Agarwal,

co-founder of osmosis and contributor to cosmos. Welcome, Sunny. Hey, Laura. Nice to have you. Nice to be on. Sorry, I'm using the other side of these podcast things. sure. So I usually inviting you guests on that. Nice to be on one. So we're turning the tables on

you today. But you've been working on what people are calling the most user-friendly ecosystem in crypto, which is osmosis, among other things. Previously, you've also been a podcast host, a research scientist at Cosmos, and more. So why don't we fill people in on your background? Tell us how it is that you got into crypto and what you've been up to until this point. Yeah, sure. You know, there's, I guess there's different stages. of one getting into crypto. You know, first time you hear about it, first time you buy your first Bitcoin,

first time you actually understand what it is you just bought. But, you know, first time I ever heard about crypto was probably when a friend came up to me, senior year of high school, and he just said, Dogecoin just sponsored the Jamaican bobsled team. And I was like,

none of that sentence made any sense. What did you just say? So I had to go home that night and look up what Dogecoin is. that I like obviously from there you look up what Bitcoin is and you're like I'm like oh that's kind of interesting and so from there I when I got to college my freshman year there was this like I went to UC Berkeley and there was this like small Bitcoin club and so I'm like oh I remember this like interesting thing I looked up near that end of last year let me go check it out and so it's like

2015 when joined this Bitcoin club it was like pretty interesting I think most of it was very much over my head. But what I did was me and two of other friends, we started teaching a course on it. Because for me, the best, for me, the best way to like learn stuff is to sign up to teach it because if you have to learn something or teach something next week, you better learn it this week. Also why I do a podcast. So yeah, so, you know, started doing that from there, you know, on our first really understood Bitcoin around then. We had this class of like about 50 students. We started this new club called blockchain at Berkeley.

And basically took a lot of the students from that original club and used it to start this club. Just remind us what year was this? This was all happening in like 2016, late 2016, basically. And then, yeah, I, you know, back then we were all very Bitcoin maximally. I would say. You know, I remember I look back at some of the old lectures from that class are all on YouTube and some of them are a little bit cringy, just how a little bit Bitcoin Maxi we were. In my defense, I kind of learned about Ethereum during the Dow attack. Like I was like on a hackathon summer 2016 and I was like with a friend, I was like, hey,

I heard about this like Ethereum thing. We can go build stuff on it. Let's check it out. we open R slash Ethereum on Reddit and the entire front page is just like about how like the Dow is getting attacked and you know we got to fork the chain the world is burning and I was like yeah these people are a little bit insane let me uh not pay attention to this so I ended up not paying attention to it for another like nine months and then at blockchain at Berkeley we had this meetup this guy from digix came and he just sort of gave us the pitch on Ethereum and I'm like okay I see what you guys are going for. So now summer of 2017, I wanted to just learn more about Ethereum.

So I interned at ConsenSys where I was working on a couple of different things. I wasn't super interested. I wasn't super into it, mostly because Consensus was really working at more like application layer stuff. And I kind of really wanted to work more at like core protocol layer stuff. And so what happened was that summer, I got really, really, interested in proof of steak. And so I, what I did was I like read every single proof of steak white paper I could. And out of all of them, I think the tendermint, the tendermint one just like stood out to me because it was just the simplest. And I'm like, wow, this is so simple and elegant.

And, you know, we could probably go implement this and like by the end of the year and ship it. And so I reached out to the tendermint team. And I kind of like dropped my consensus internship halfway through the summer. And I reached out to the tenderman team. I'm like, hey, can I like help you guys like any way? And then they told. So I didn't not realize actually at the time that it was the Cosmos team that was building the tenderman consensus.

And so, you know, can get into like how these two things relate to each other. But yeah. So, you know, they, so I reached out. through the team that I thought was the tenement team, but then they told me about this larger Cosmos vision that they were working on. And I'm like, oh, this, this is perfect. This like solves all of like the issues I was seeing with Ethereum. And so I sort of started working with them that summer. And can you briefly describe what that vision was and what the problems were that you felt that it would solve? Yeah. So, well, what is the Cosmos vision? The Cosmos vision is one of

an ecosystem of app chains, application-specific blockchains that are all interoperating with each other. So how I usually explain this is like I see like the evolution of blockchains and this like three generational thing, which I know is a little bit of an overused term. But here's how what I see this meet. So you have like the generation one of blockchains. I put it in terms of like political economy. So like in political economy, you had these like, Generation 1 of civilization, you have independent kingdoms and villages where they're all very sovereign. And this is sort of like the V1 of blockchains where you had all these independent blockchains,

but that didn't really interoperate with each other. You had Bitcoin for payments. You had Namecoin for DNS names. You had SIA for storage. But you couldn't use your Bitcoin to buy a name on name coin and use it to point to something stored on Saya. These are all like separated. So in human civilization, what we did to solve this problem, we created these things

called empires. And we realized, hey, through like large scale political integration, we can achieve like really great economic integration. So, you know, through like standards and like set standards and measures and like through force, you can like create these like large scale economic systems. And so this is what Ethereum kind of did where it said, hey, if we put everything in one system, we can get all this amazing composability with each other. And it worked really well.

You can have all this amazing, like, new innovation that you get from putting everything in these systems. And ever since then, you know, people have been iterating on that. So people are just trying to build better empires, basically, better chains that can scale. So the problems I saw was, one, a lack of scalability. So that means both, like from a technical perspective, like, you know, just TPS and stuff, but also like social scalability. So I saw that like, you know, different applications are going to have one to have sovereignty over their own stacks. We saw things like, you know, after the Dow fork, I was like, wait, if this doubt, if the chain for like this, we're lucky that when it happened, there wasn't enough going on. But if something like that happened today, all of Defi would break.

there was a fork or like you know i saw like you know the parody multi-sig one where like funds were lost i was like well you know it'll be i feel if they have their own chain they could you know they could have voted to like fix that and it's the sovereignty and customizability that you really lose out so the cosmos vision was hey we can can we achieve the best of both worlds Can we have the like application specificness of generation one of blockchains, but with like the economic composability of generation two? And this is like what we've accomplished in the world and the last, you know, the greatest accomplishment of humanity in the last like 100-ish years is that we learned how to do mass scale economic integration without mass scale political integration. And we've done this through like, you know, free trade zone. and technology like the internet and institutions like the UN and IMF and one that people

massively don't think about enough, but containerization. And I don't mean Docker. What I mean is if you ever go to like a naval yard, you'll see that they all have like, there's just like shipping container that like it's the same, it's like a copy pasted shipping container and there's tens of thousands of them in your, in your naval yard. Because what we've done is we've created this standard that every single ship in the world, cargo ship in the world, knows how to transport this one container type. And every single port in the world knows how to load and unload this one container type. And this basically allows any port in the world to trade with any other port in the world.

And that just opens up like a world of globalization. So that's an analogy that will come into play later when we talk about IBC. But yeah, so this has sort of been the cosmos vision. How can we enable sovereignty, scalability, customizability through app chains, but still allow, you know, this high level of composability that we get that we're used to in blockchains today? So it sounds like that's the vision for Cosmos, where you could have all these different ports or naval yards, but they can all function together. because the container is standardized.

Okay. Correct. So at the moment, obviously, you're this co-founder of Osmosis Labs, which is the company that has built Osmosis, the Decentralized Exchange. Why don't you tell us about that transition and what the vision is there and what it is that you've been building with osmosis?

Yeah, sure. So with Cosmos, we were on the core team and we saw that there was basically, you know, to make this vision of reality, there was like three main pieces of technology that we saw we needed. So the first was that tenderman consensus, basically how many proof of work change should there be in the world? There's two plausible answers and it's either zero or one. I tend to lean on the side of one. But, you know, multiple proof of work chains coexisting is actually just like sort of fundamentally insolving. secure. What we saw was, hey, what you really want is a world of many proof of stake chains,

all checkpointing into one proof of work chain. And so we needed to go invent proof of stake. And like today, everything is using proof of stake. But like at the time, like, most proof of stake systems today are like usually running some derivative of like the tenderman consensus protocol that would create. Wait, but why would you say there would only be one proof of work chain? Because hash power, you know, if you're on a minority hash power chain, you're always like vulnerable to these attacks. And basically I think that if you have like one proof of work chain that has like all the hash power dedicated to it, it's the most secure chain. So you have this like interesting property where proof of stake is very secure in short timeframes and insecure in long time frames. But meanwhile, proof of work is insecure in short timeframes and very secure in long timeframes.

And so there's actually the best of you, what you really want to do is get the best of both worlds where you use fast finality proof of stake chains and checkpoint them into a proof of work chain. So that way, you know, that will solve your like nothing at, you know, long range attacks and stuff that you get in proof of stake. So that's like the long-term goal. There's a couple of people building this actually right now, like checkporting tendermint into Bitcoin. But that's a side point, side thing. So osmosis, yeah. So the technology is right.

So second was the Cosmos SDK, which we said, okay, if we want this world of application chains, we need to make it easy for people to build them. And so the SDK was a framework to do that. And IBC was the protocol to have these all communicate. So it took us about, two, about three years to get all of these technologies built. So I started in summer 2017. The first two were ready by the end of by like spring 2019. IBC finally became ready in spring of

20, spring of 2021. So it took us four years. Yeah, that sounds right. You know, for me, I all, my vision was I wanted to get this ecosystem built. And so once these three technologies were ready, it was like, okay, time to go build applications using these. And I was like, okay, what is the thing that needs to be built? Well, obviously, deckses are like a big piece. You know, if you look at every other DePy ecosystem, sort of the decks is the first building block you need, and then everything else sort of sprouts from there.

So we didn't actually originally start with the decks actually funny enough. We actually started more on some like front running resistance and privacy related things, but then we're like, okay, how do we apply this? And we started to, so, okay, a Dex is the way of doing this. So we started building osmosis in the January of 2021, launched in about June and took it from there. And osmosis is different from other dexes because of the level of customization that it has. there are a lot of functions that are variable and up to the market makers.

Why did you decide to build it that way? And now that you have seen how people are using, what are some of the unique types of liquidity pools that you're seeing being built? What was the purpose of osmosis was to kind of show how app chains can win, right? Or just show off like, hey, this is what app chains are really good at. What, you know, the benefit of osmosis is it's sort of this like bet on vertical integration. You know, other decks is built on other existing blockchains, right? What they can do is they have their smart contracts and they have their front ends and they can like kind of use those.

But osmosis, we have our application, our front end. We also have the control over the blockchain itself. and we have our team also builds the Kepler wallet. And so by having this sort of like full stack control from the wallet all the way down to the blockchain, we're basically able to like ship certain features and UX flows that other dexes just can't do. And so I can go into some of them. So I think what you're referring to about the customizable pools, that was actually sort of a little bit of an earlier vision of osmosis.

So I know if you go on our blog, you can see that, hey, we talk a lot about these like customizable pools. I think the thesis is still right, which is AMMs are massively under explored. And one of the things that we're working on is really exploring the design space of AMMs properly. But what we did learn from experimentation is that too much customizable can also be a little bit of a problem where what you'll end up doing is they'll often end up fragmenting markets. And so for now, what we do is we started by using the balancer AMM model with the multi-asset pools. And we did that because we're like, oh, wow, balancer out of all the existing EMMs is the most customizable.

You can, you know, set multiple assets in a pool and you can add weights and all this kind of cool stuff. And we're like, oh, that's so cool. So, you know, Dan Robinson, who's one of our investors, or a paradigm is one of our investors, but, you know, he often says that like, when you, in AIMM design, you have, like, complexity points to spend. And I think balancer actually spends them on the wrong things where, you know, I think weights are cool.

I'm not sure what they're useful for. Same with, like, multi-asset pools. They're very cool, you know, other than, I'm not really sure what they're that useful for. And so basically what we're kind of doing right now is like bringing it back, bringing our AMM design work back a step and then so we can explore other directions of the design space. Yeah. I mean, in general, it feels like user experience is such a big focus for osmosis.

So why did you make that a priority? And what were some of the major user experience problems you were trying to resolve? For us, centralized, you know, if Dexas want to meaningfully compete with centralized exchanges, which is our goal, I don't think any Defts today, like, offers the experience that, like, centralized exchanges do. And, you know, to be honest, centralized exchanges are still, to be honestly, leave quite a lot to be desired. I had to teach, like, my mom how to use Coinbase the other day. And it was, you know, still not as user-friendly as you'd hope. But we're, you know, still a load better than teaching her how to use like MetaMask and Ethereum and stuff. So, you know, we, I think also the other thing is where Dex is like the moat for Dex is their user experience.

Because the user experience is what brings retail volume to your decks. And then everything follows from there. If you have retail volume, liquidity follows a retail volume. and then, you know, institutional and arbitrage volume follows the liquidity. So if you can bring those like what, you know, what we call natural order flow to your, to your decks, then I think everything else will like fall into place. And so to do that, we have to like take advantage of some of the things we do with like the app chains like we talked about.

So an example would be one of the biggest issues I've had with like every blockchain up until today is how you have to pay fees in like the native token of that chain. And I always thought this was just like terrible UX. A couple years ago, I had to teach one of my, I was showing one of my friends how to use dye for payments. And this is back when gas costs were reasonable and we could perceivably use die as payments. But what I did was I sent him, I made him open a wallet and stuff and I sent him some dye. And I'm like, cool, try sending it back to me. And then he try sending it back and it's like, it's not working. And it's like, wait, what's wrong?

And it's like, oh, you don't have ETH for the transaction fee. And it's like, this is a very silly U.X. And especially for something like osmosis, where like, you'll notice that our, our native token, Osmo, is not on any centralized exchanges. That's very purposeful. You know, we don't want listings of our token. We are a dex and we have conviction in our own product. So, you know, we're not going to, we don't want our token to be listed.

on our competitors. But if you can't go get Osmo from a centralized exchange, how would someone use the osmosis chain in the first place? And so what we actually did was we were able to make it so you can pay transaction fees in any token you want. And we do that because unlike other chains where Ethereum doesn't know about the existence of Uniswap, right? There's like this abstraction barrier there.

In osmosis, because it's a fully vertically integrated system, the chain knows about the decks on top of it. And so if you try to pay a transaction fee in USDC, for example, it will say, oh, it'll take the transaction fee and automatically route it through the decks and say, oh, okay, look, this is actually worth this much osmo. And it will like do all the normal work like a normal fee does. And so, you know, this I think was just like such a big, lock on the UX that pay fees and whatever you want, as long as it has economic value, that the chain shouldn't really care. So that's like one example of like UX things that we can achieve with like the vertically

integrated system. And does that have to do with how, as far as I can tell from some posts I read, it seems that tokens can be added by anybody. but then for the front end for kind of like the nice ux that the osmosis decks you know shows that there when you add a token it has to be done via the governance system is that is that a correct description of how that works and if so like why did you guys do it that way yeah so this also sort of arose from this like desire for a good ux as well so what how happened was, you know, you'll notice that there's like a number of bridges out there, like,

being developed right now. To varying levels of success, but anyway. Yes, to varying levels of success. And, you know, as much as possible, we prefer to use IBC just because it is the most secure design for a bridge that's available right now, which like fully trustless, no intermediaries, yada, yada. but, you know, IBC doesn't exist between every chain today. And like, you know, it works very well for tendermint based chains or other tendermint based chains. But and there's work on integrating IBC into other frameworks like substrate and Solana and other other things as well. But, you know, at the moment, there's no IBC integration for Ethereum. And so we need to use an existing bridge.

And a lot of people wanted to be. to build bridges between Ethereum and Cosmos. There's like at least I know six existing implementations of like different bridges between the, that could have, that can connect Ethereum to osmosis right now. And, but the problem is,

let's say, ETH that flows over each of these different bridges is not fungible with each other. They all would have different, they're all different tokens on the osmosis side. And, you know, other ecosystems will often like deal with that with like these like prefixes. So you'll have like wormhole is like wet,

or then you'll have like nomad E if the net and Axler E with access. And it's like you know, you go on Coinbase. You don't have all these like ugly prefixes. And it's like that's not the UX that people want. And so what you need is you want a sort of a canonical version of an asset. the same time we want to remain permissionless. So what we actually did right now as a temporary fix is we actually created two websites. We have the main osmosis site at app.osmosis.com. And we have a second site called Frontier at frontier.comasmosis.com. And the frontier site has

basically permissionless listing. And you know, you go on and it has this like Wild West like theme and stuff to it. And it's like, it's supposed to be like, okay, look, this is like a permission list listing, but like, you know, be wary. It's dangerous. Some of these assets, you know, are not audited and, like, you know, you have all these like prefixes and like, good luck. I hope you know what you're doing. And then the main site is, it's a little bit more curated where it's like, okay, let's have like one canonical bridge as the primary asset. And so we actually have this whole governance process to decide what that canonical bridge would be for osmosis. And so it took like two or three months to go through the whole process where there was like all the brick providers submitted proposals and we

had these like town halls with all of them and this voting process. But yeah, so in the end, governance basically ended up picking this bridge called Axler as the primary bridge based off with like technical merits and stuff and stuff. So on there, you know, you'll only have only the Axler version of E, or the Axelar version of USC will be shown on that. And that's sort of just to provide that better UX and a little bit more. And, you know, the assets that are on the main site are sort of, you know, ones that, you know, we know are like, okay, these are actual teams behind this and things like that. So that's sort of there to provide this like duality.

You alluded to the governance process on osmosis. Can you describe how that works? Yeah. So governance on osmosis, it happens by a token holder voting. basically of staked Osmo holders. So Osmo token holders are, Osmo is the staking token of the chain. And you have to basically be staked in order to vote.

And when you stake, you normally delegate to a validator or you run a validator yourself. And the governance system of, this is just sort of the general government, the default governance system that most Cosmos SDC chains use is when you stake, you, it's kind of like a liquid, kind of like a mini liquid democracy where you by default inherit the vote of your validator, but you can always override them by voting yourself. If your validator voted yes on something and you're fine with that, you don't have to do anything. But if you disagree with your validator, you can always just submit a vote yourself and, you know, your validated won't inherit your voting power.

And all the votes are done basically fully on chain. there's no admin key or multi-sig or, you know, that executes and stuff. It's all on chain. There's like three main governance types. So there's what we call text proposals, which are basically, it's just a string of text. And like, so for example, like, what's the canonical bridge? Those are a series of text proposals. Then there's parameter change proposals.

So parameter change is like things that can be like in the. protocol that can be edited on the fly. So a big example of that is the incentives. So osmosis, you know, has a lot of liquidity incentives for different pools. And every week governance sort of revotes on like, okay, what percentage of this week's incentives should go to the atom osmo pool versus the Luna osmo pool versus the UST osmo pool, for example. And that's a parameter change. And then the third one is a software upgrade proposal. So basically this what it does by default is if it gets voted in valid it is all it'll like shut down the nodes at that time and then it basically makes it so we can coordinate on chain software upgrades

via on chain governance so in a moment we'll talk a little bit more about how this also affects security but first quick word from the sponsors who make this show possible the scorebed app here with trusted stats and real-time sports news yeah hey who should i take in the boston game Well, statistically speaking. Nah, no more statistically speaking. I want hot takes. I want knee-jerk reactions. That's not really what I do.

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maximize passive income while you sleep. Simply deposit your crypto into Beefy's secure industry-leading auto-compounding vaults to put your funds to work. Each one of Beefy's 740 volts automatically reinvests the interest gained on your crypto deposits, earning you more, while saving you time and fees. Beefe's strategies create bank-busting APYs with 0% deposit fees at the click of a button. Join $1.4 billion of investments and understand why so many users trust Beefie with their financial independence. Visit beefy.finance and take control of your financial future. Back to my conversation with Sunny. So as far as I understand, because Cosmos is this multi-chain system, osmosis can't bootstrap security from like the underlying blockchain as it would, you know,

if it were like part of Ethereum or something like that. So how is security provided in osmosis? Yeah. So security is provided via osmo staking. So, you know, Osmo has a reasonably high market cap to support the assets that are currently on the chain. And one of the things that we did was we sort of invented this thing called super fluid staking as a way of improving security. So how it works is Osmo while being the staking token of the chain is also the primary liquidity pair of the chain. So you can create pools for other pairs. So you could create like atom, USDC pool. directly, but Osmo is by default, sort of like the most popular base pair. And, but this kind of like lead to this thing of like, hey, a lot of Osmo is sitting in

liquidity pools not being staked. And it's like that economic value could have been contributing to stake to like help secure the chain. And so what we did was we like, well, why isn't it, right? Like this has economic value. So, like, you know, in crypto and there's like been this huge movement towards like staking derivatives as a way of solving this like capital efficiency problem where they're saying like, okay, hey, we can take a token like ETH, for example, we'll stake it, get back a staking derivative token like Steeth or STE. And then we use that STEth in DFI. The problem is this has a lot of security implications to it because I don't want to go too much into it. But what ends up happening is like because that steth is liquid, if you are valid and do something malicious, it's very easy for you to get rid of that steeth and basically have someone else absorb the risk or the slashing punishment.

So we said, hey, is there a way to do this in the other direction? And there is because, once again, we are an app chain. what we do is we do this in the other direction. So what we do is we take staking tokens, use them in defy, get back defy assets, and stake the defy assets. And so in this case specifically, anytime Osmo is in an AMM pool, you get back these LP shares, but these LP shares have Osmo underlying them. And so what we allow you to do is stake the LP share.

And because the chain understands the D5 protocol built on top, you know, it basically repoles every regular interval and says, okay, this LP share is worth this much Osmo, treated as worth this much Osmo for the purposes of staking. And still these LP shares are slashable. And so basically what we're, well, Osmo is able to secure, Osmo is able to secure itself because it's allowing all the Osmo in Defi to be used in staking to secure the chain. And so we'll be able to do this with more device primitives as well. So we just started with LP shares, but we'll be able to do, you know, we're building a lending protocol right now called isotonic. So we'll be able to do that

with like, you know, the equivalent of C tokens, but in isotonic. And we'll be able to do this with more and more sort of defy primitives. Wow. That's actually, that's super fascinating. In early March, Osmosis announced that I had integrated Cosmwasms inter-Blockchain smart contract engine into osmosis. What is Cosm-Wosom, and how does this benefit? Osmosis. Yeah. So going back to the Cosmosis SDK, today, all of the logic of osmosis is in the SDK, which means it's written in Go. Yeah. And by the way, for people who aren't technical at software development, kit. Yes, SDK stands for software development kit. But what it means is our decks isn't written as smart contracts. Smart contracts is basically like code you write and you can deploy it live to like a

running chain. The Cosmos SDK wasn't built for that. The Cosmosis SDK was built for, you know, similar to Bitcoin. It has its core logic, but that exists in the Bitcoin node software. So in the same way the osmosis decks exist in the node software. And so, you know, for a long time, we were kind of resistant to like smart contracts because we're like, oh, we want to just be this app chain, just focus on what we're doing. But as we go, we realize, hey, okay, what we sort of realized was we're trying to compete with centralized exchanges. And centralized exchanges are more than just their spot markets. What they, are is this suite of products that is packaged into one unified experience. And so along with

their spot markets, they include, you know, margining and perps and, you know, launch pads and custody services and fiat diagrams and stuff like that. And so if osmosis as a platform, as a chain wants to compete with centralized exchanges, it needs to offer that suite of products in one unified experience. And to do that, we need to enable external teams to come in and help build parts of this stack. And so to do this, what we did was we added Cosmwasom, which is a smart contracting system built for the Cosmos SDK. And it's one of the most popular smart contracting systems today.

It's used, you know, the biggest user is the Terra blockchain. So everything that's built on top of Terra is, you know, other than the actual stable coin itself, like, you know, anchor and mirror and all this stuff on top is all built in cosmwasom. And then there's a number of chains that use it, like secret network and Stargaze and a bunch more. So we added this module to osmosis. But what we did actually something a little bit different than everyone else was we made it permissioned deployment. So, you know, most of our contracting chains, you can just, anyone can just go start deploying contracts. For osmosis, you actually have to make a governance proposal in order to deploy a contract.

And the goal here is we want to make sure it still remains an app chain. And we want to be able to make sure the things that are being deployed to osmosis are like high quality and, you know, well integrated with each other. We would rather have like 20 amazing apps on it rather than 200, mediocre ones. And it kind of like, once again, you know, Apple is like a big inspiration of like how I think about like product design. But it's like, you know, similar to vertical integration. But it's also like, you know, Apple's iOS App Store. It has to go through like an approval process to list some app on the app store. And so, you know, it's a similar sort of idea here.

But the idea here is we can build now a sort of chain that has a bunch of like super well integrated DFI protocols sort of all working together. Yeah. And, you know, this comparison that you make to Apple, like, it's, it's pretty evident in how, you know, you have this focus on user experience and how, in a way, by having all these different app chains, that sort of gives you control over the quality of kind of like each of, like the decks or the landing protocol or whatever these different apps are that are going to be. But how do you kind of manage that goal against, you know, the community, goal to have these blockchains be decentralized. Do you feel that you've had to compromise in terms of centralization or rather decentralization? I think that basically, you know, the the osmosis community is like bought in and like, you know, participating in this protocol because they sort of believe in this app chain vision. And so like I said, it's not like we go around and give access to like deploy on osmosis. It's a on-chain governance proposal that like the community votes things in. And obviously, you know, the dev teams can, you know, give suggestions and stuff.

At the end of the day, I think that like the community is pretty well aligned with the vision of like what osmosis should become and like the direction to take to go there. That's just kind of like the benefit of sovereignty, right? Like this is in a system like Ethereum, right, where there's just so many stakeholders and they all have differing interests and needs out of the protocol. They, it kind of, what ends up happening is the protocol gets tugged in so many directions that it ends up stagnating and it can't really go anywhere. Like if you want to do some sort of like breaking change, it, like I remember like not the recent Ethereum upgrade, but the. the previous one, I think, they changed how some of the op codes were priced, and it broke a bunch of people's smart contracts. It broke Aragon's Dow contracts, I believe. And so it's like,

ugh, right? This is, like, not great that, like, things can break up from under you. And that's why Ethereum has to be, like, necessarily slow moving. And so, like, that with the app chain thing, So, you know, like I said earlier, we started with this goal of wanting to build this, like, front running resistant decks that, like, uses privacy technology to make that work. And we're still developing this right now. But whenever we're ready to launch this, this will require, like, somebody will be like the biggest change to how blockchains have worked since, like, you know, maybe the development of proof of stake. But to do this, we have to go change how, like, the chain works. You have to go change how the front end works. You have to go change how the wallet works.

and if there's like a thousand applications built on top of osmosis, we wouldn't be able to do that because we, you know, I don't know how we would go coordinate with all of these apps that like, hey, let's all sort of upgrade at the same time. You end up grinding to a halt. Meanwhile, if there's like, okay, hey, here's these like 10 daps that are built on top of osmosis, we can all go, we can go coordinate with them and be like, hey, you know, let's all make sure our front ends are all ready to, like, change to this new

cryptography to make the privacy system work. And so, and so, yeah, my point is, you know, the osmosis community is in the osmosis community because they believe in this vision. And so it's like, osmosis is permissioned, but cosmos is permissionless. So it's like if the osmosis chain is very opinionated, while. Cosmos is unopinionated. So if you, we still interoperate with this whole permissionless world while still remaining opinionated. It's, you know, kind of like a same thing with the duality between our, you know, two front ends as well. You know, I think there's this balance that always has to be struck. So as you mentioned, osmosis is tackling front running or MEV. Talk a little bit

about how it is that you are all doing that. Yeah. So, you know, I got really interested in MEV summer, like summer of 2020, working with the FlashBots team sort of before FlashBots existed. And I was like, okay, I want to figure out how to solve this problem. Like, you know, instead of just like auctioning off rights to it or whatever, I want to like, how do we even minimize the MEP at the protocol? And MEP is a very broad term. The type of MEP, the toxic MEP, I would say that we were really interested in was front running.

And so I'll just explain it just in case any of the listeners are not familiar. what front running is, is let's say you were going to go buy a million dollars worth of a stock. And I knew you were going to do that. What would I do? I would go buy that stock right before you, let you buy it so it pushes up the price, and I'll sell right after you. But by doing that, I gave you worse pricing. So this is very rampant in blockchain.

So because today everyone just broadcast their transaction out in the open, everyone's watching the mempool and basically looking at like, okay, here's all the trades. Let me sandwich these and that's what we call them in blockchain land. This front running is called sandwiching because you put your buy, put their buy and then you put yourself. So you sandwich their transaction. And this MEV has gotten like very toxic, especially on change, like, you know, with a lot of volume like Ethereum and Salon and stuff where there are like major dexes.

So our solution was how we saw it was we're like, this is fundamentally a privacy problem actually. Like the problem is that everyone is leaking their intent before it actually executed. So what we did was we created this system called threshold encryption, which what it basically means is we have a way of making it so you, your transaction is encrypted. when you broadcast it to the network. And when a block proposer or a validator,

when they make a block, it consists of encrypted transactions. They don't actually know what's in the block. And then how tenement works is all the validators sort of like vote on a block, commit and finalize a block. Only once a block is finalized, only then does it get decrypted and executed. And we use this using like threshold cryptography.

So you know, you might be, it's similar to like threshold signing if you're familiar with like a multi-sig. You can imagine it's kind of like a multi-sig, but for decrypting information. So, you know, what we'll have is so two-thirds of validers have to sort of share their secret in order to decrypt the transactions. But we also require two-thirds of validers to vote on a block in, order to finalize a block. And so what we do is every time a validative votes on a block, they also share their decryption share. And so once you have two-thirds of vote on a block,

it's finalized. That's also when you can decrypt and execute. And so by doing this, you know, we help solve, you know, basically any of the toxic MEP that happens via the front running. And when are you rolling this out? Sometime this year. So, you know, so what happened was we actually started with this and we started sort of started architecting this system. And then we've realized this is a feature, not a product. And that's sort of how osmosis started was we're like, okay, let's go build a product around this. Let's go build this decks. And then, you know, the poles of the market took us in different directions. You know, we're like, okay, we've got to go build the superfluid staking and things like that. And so, you know, other other sort of features

took a little bit higher priority. But like the, this doesn't really. encryption is definitely like one of our top priorities for this year. Wow. That's really funny that that was how that happened. You mentioned Isotonic, the lending protocol that you are all working on. Obviously, recently we have seen how lending has definitely attracted a lot of people to the Terra ecosystem. As we're recording, it's unclear how things will work out for that ecosystem.

But the point is, the point is. is that a lot of people were kind of talking about the risks of having such a high interest rate on that system and what would happen when they start to drop it. I was curious if you have any thoughts on kind of how isotonic should sort of thread that needle of like wanting to attract users. And, you know, I'm sure you've heard these terms of people kind of having an issue of attracting mercenary capital, but wanting to have missionary. capital. So what are your thoughts on that? Yeah. So, you know, the mercenary versus missionary capital,

I think this is like something we cared a lot about. So one of the things we did on osmosis, just the debts itself, which I don't think I'd seen anyone else do before was we sort of only put token, like liquidity incentives on bonded LP share. So we didn't want this sort of like mercenary capital that like comes in and out on like, you know, there's actually some like MEV you can do by doing that actually. So what we do as we say, hey, if you want token incentives, you have to choose to bond your LP shares, or either one day, seven days or 14 days. And the longer you bond them, you sort of earn more awesome incentives. So kind of like bringing this more missionary liquidity. And so the similar thing, we would do the same similar thing

for isotonic, where we want to make sure token, you know, assets that are put into isotonic or committed long term. Okay. So now about the question about anchor, you know, so Anchor was kind of, really what it was doing was bootstrapping the stable coin, right? Like what happened was there was a lot of stable coin deposited into it with very little actual amount being borrowed from it

because that's not really what Anchor was really going for. And the yields were a little bit artificial, right? They were kind of propped up by TFL. because their goal was not really to build a lending market as much as it was to build a supply sink for UST. Yeah, Terraform Labs. TFL. Yeah, Terraform Labs. And the problem is it actually kind of, weirdly enough, Inker kind of makes building stuff with UST slightly annoying because, so we're trying to build this like isotonic system and UST is still a major stable coin in osmosis. We'll see what happens at, you know, end of the week. But to attract UST deposits into isotonic, we sort of have

to beat the anchor rate of return, which is artificially propped up. And so it actually, the anchor artificial yield, I actually think is a little bit harmful to the ecosystem long term because it makes it harder for people to build natural uses of UST. And I think that was one of the issues that happened in the Terra ecosystem, that all the UST got put into this chasing this artificial yield instead of being used in more natural adoption. Not to say that there isn't natural adoption in the Terra ecosystem, but it's just, you know, a large, large, large majority of the UST was chasing the artificial yield. So for isotonic, you know, I mean, we will support UST, but we're also going to support other stable coins as well.

We're working a lot with USC as well as then, you know, also thinking about like capital efficiency things of how to make these things useful. So for example, like we're actually launching a stable swap pretty soon as well as a lending protocol. And so it's like, well, these two things are kind of competing for stable coin deposits. How can we make it so like a deposit in a one is actually. being used in both of them. And so, you know, there's some design stuff that we're doing here and making it so more capital efficient and stuff. And as you mentioned, Osmosis also recently selected a bridge. And there have been so many recent cross-chain bridge hacks. So what was the thinking behind choosing that particular bridge? And in general, how do you and the Osmosis community

think about bridge security? A number of things went into choosing. the bridge. I think a couple of them. One is the axler. Axler is built on the Cosmos SDK, which has sort of been a big piece for us because what that meant is we didn't have to integrate a custom bridge protocol to talk to axelars. Rather, what Axelar does is it will like use their bridge protocol to bring assets from Ethereum or Avalanche. And then it will, but we only have to use IBC in order to talk to Axler, which is a big sort of selling point for us. And so that sort of more Cosmos native is one. The second is, I think the team is just amazing. I think that, so, you know, Sergei and Georgios, like, they were like sort of the lead engineers for Algarand,

didn't really like the direction of that product project. And so they kind of wanted to leave and go build something a little bit more open and stuff. So started Axelar. And I think that, I mean, to be completely honest, I don't think their team is the greatest at like marketing themselves. I don't think they're the most well-known bridge as like, you know, some of the others. But I don't think I don't think that matters. I think that bridges are not really end user facing. They're not customer-facing products. Bridges are service providers to applications.

And as long as, you know, kind of this arbitrage, we're like, oh, we saw that they actually have this amazing product, but not as well known so we can actually integrate that. And we are there to go to market for it. But we can use their amazing product. And so the amazing product that we saw was once again, I just thought they had this really good UX flows that they had built. So the one that like kind of wowed me and like sold me on it was they have this thing called deposit addresses.

So what that means is so you go on a central. exchange today, right? And you click deposit eth. And it doesn't pop up your metamask and like say, oh, send this and it'll like have this pre-filled transaction. What it does is to say, hey, here's this ETH address or QR code and just send ETH to this address. And then the exchange will like, you know, link that to your account once it receives it. And there's two types of wallets. I call them dumb wallets and smart wallets. Smart wallets are your metamask and Kepler and phantom wallet. These things that you can have an application and you do like tell it, oh, here's a transaction and the wallet signs it.

Dumb wallets, all they know how to do is send coins. That's all they know how to do. And I actually think majority of people only use dumb wallets right now. So, you know, if I'm holding, if I have a trust wallet on my phone, right? Yes, it has wallet connect and stuff. But like really, the easiest U.X is just send coins, right? And what the actual system was designed was to deal with that U.S. So instead of like opening up Metamask, it just gives me an address and says, send coins to this account.

And it will like automatically, if I send Etheridge to that address, it'll automatically, it'll just show up in my osmosis account. And this is so important because, like, okay, who's the, what's one of the biggest dumb wallets in the world is centralized exchanges. When I, if I, via the actual system, I could say, hey, withdraw my ETH from Coinbase directly to osmosis. All you have to do is you just send your ETH to the address and it will just, you put it as the withdrawal address and it'll just show up in your osmosis account. I think that is like such a valuable UX. or the other one would be like another big dumb wallet, every single Bitcoin wallet, right? Like there's no, no, there's no smart wallets for Bitcoin yet.

And Axel actually originally started as focusing on their Bitcoin bridge. There's reasons to kind of push that down the line a little bit. But like, you know, if we want to support Bitcoin bridged onto osmosis, you need this like dumb wallet, Ux flow. So yeah, that's kind of, you know, just they're like sort of focus on like UX features that we thought were like sort of. was why the community sort of went with Axler. But then in terms of security issues, like do you feel that with with Axler, that they've resolved some of the other issues we've seen

with these cross-chain bridge hacks? There's a number of different types of cross-chain bridge hacks, right? There's, I would say the vast, vast majority of hacks are not economic attacks. They're really just software bugs, right? And, you know, the wormhole attack was a soft, or a bug. And unfortunately, you can, you can do your best at that, but, you know, at some point, it's just a matter of, you know, good luck, I guess. But like, actually, you know, it's gone through

a number of audits. It's written in the Cosmos SDK primarily, which I think is, you know, I'm probably a little bit biased, but I think it's actually, you know, I don't think there's been any Cosmosis SDK chain that has had any sort of major hack yet, which is good to see, I guess. you know, knock on wood. Yeah. So, you know, they're quite well audited. When it comes to the economic security, you know, I like that Axar is run as a proof of stake chain, right? It's not unlike, you know, so Ronin, the Axi one was actually the first one that was really like an economic attack where, you know, first of all, they had these like eight validators, but four of them were run by one company. And it's like, guys, that's not a decentralized validator set. And so, you know,

that was able to be sort of taken over. And then you have things like wormhole, which is basically running this like, you know, white listed validators. Meanwhile, Axler is a proof of stake system that they have their own token and like becoming a validator is permissionless. And the other thing that we're actually working with them as well with on is building in safeguards into into the bridge.

So like there is no reason that like, over 25% of your bridge bridges like TVL should be moving across the bridge in like a five minute period, right? Like that is, if that's happening, there's something going wrong. So, you know, we're working with them on adding these like stop gaps where they're like, oh, okay, look, if we see this like net outflow of assets in like a 24 hour period, okay, you know, similar. have a circuit breaker, right? It requires like, okay, some sort of manual intervention to be like, okay, what's going on? And so, like, building in these, like, stop gaps and, like, this sort of a security mindset around the process is, like, I think, how we resolve a lot of these things.

Yeah, that reminds me of, like, ages ago, like, literally, I think, like, in 2015 or something, Emin Guns here, he proposed, like, something called vault or something on Bitcoin, where for large amounts, it would be the transaction. would be delayed by 48 hours or something like that. So I noticed that recently when Yuga Labs had its debacle with its NFT drop for the digital land in Other Side, it tweeted afterward that it urged its doubt to look at launching its own chain. And you quote tweeted that and said, App Chains are the way. But a lot of people felt that Yuga Labs was actually blaming Ethereum for something that they themselves could have prevented. So why did you see that as a kind of like a good example of why app chains are a solution. Yeah, because, you know, people kind of criticize them like, oh, like you didn't make your

contract as gas efficient as they could have been. And it's like, yes, you're right. But first of all, I'm not sure that would have actually solved the problem because if they were more gas efficient, I think the way their auction was structured, it would just have caused the price would have just cost more gas, like the price per unit of gas would have just gone up and ended up costing. the same amount. Really what it is. And also it's like, you know, we're getting to this world where like to build on Ethereum, you have to like be like, you know, you can't even write in a solidity

anymore. You have to like go into the EVM bytecode and like hand optimize things. And it's like, this is not how like secure engineering is done. Right. And so essentially what's going to happen is this is a problem with any generalized blockchain is you're always going to have your application is always going to be competing for throughput. And you, and especially when we're talking about games, like this is always a main issue. So you see even on Polygon,

right, you had that like where Polygon went down because that sunflower game basically ended up eating all the throughput. And if you're some other DAPs sitting on Polygon, that would really suck, right? Or like, and so on Ethereum,

yes, like this auction took up a lot of space on Ethereum. But it's like, if you're another DAPSO and Ethereum, that would suck if like, I remember there's this joke back in like 2017, back when ICOs were happening. And it's like, oh, imagine we're using ETH to pay our like, you know, fill up our gas at the gas station. And it's like, oh, sorry, you know, this is going to cost $50 because it's an ICU going on on the other side of the world. And it's like, oh, like this is, this is kind of silly, right? And what we've actually seen in Cosmos, there's a lot of the early project sort of using Cosmos.

Cosmos is, osmosis was sort of the first big defy application on Cosmos. A lot of the early adopters were actually more on the like decentralized web side of things. So you had things like a Kosh network, which is like a decentralized cloud.

You had Sentinel, which is a decentralized VPN system. And it's because these are the things that get priced out of generalized blockchains first. So what ends up happening on a generalized blockchain, you know, the price of using the chain will always get go to the like whatever the highest user is willing to pay. And so defy apps, you know, maybe a defy user is willing to pay $5 in order to make a transaction.

But I'm not going to pay $5 every time I want to connect to my VPN, right? And so those are the applications that get priced off first. And I think gaming is sort of going to sort of be like the next big one where it's like, you know, gaming systems. even if you were like as great as you want, you know, you're going to be on a generalized blockchain. You're always going to get priced out. And so I think we're going to start to see a lot more gaming ecosystems sort of building their own app chains. And then getting all the benefits you get with app chains, right? Oh, you can go use our native token for fees.

And, you know, you can. So one of our team members at Osmosis, his name is John Patton, he on the side built this little side project called Treasure, which has turned into this huge, like, I think it's one of the biggest, like, NFT ecosystems out there now. And they're going to be building their own app chain pretty soon. And like they can do cool stuff where they can like use their NFTs in the proof of stake system. And you get all this like cool customizability and you can like build the chain system into

the game mechanics. And so I think that like the, I don't know, I think Ugo Labs has a lot of, a lot more design space to create interesting systems where they have their own chain. Okay. You made a good case after I read so much criticism of that comment. Last bit, you've talked multiple times in this episode about how you envision osmosis competing with centralized exchanges. Talk a little bit about that because I think a lot of people feel that the day when

decentralized exchanges compete with centralized exchanges is a ways off. Yeah. I think today, most decentralized exchanges are competing in a very different market. than centralized exchanges. So, you know, you'll have Uniswap that's primarily focused on the Ethereum ecosystem, and you have serum, the slana ecosystem and stuff. But if you look in like, you know, major volume, most volume is actually between like the native assets of different ecosystems, the L1 assets.

And I think the decks that's going to be able to attract that volume is not going to be a dex built on any of these L1s, but rather. a neutral independent chain. And so osmosis, by being this like sort of neutral platform, we're not in the Ethereum ecosystem or the Solana ecosystem, the avalanche, we're just like, and Cosmos is not really an ecosystem. In my opinion, Cosmos is a stack, a software stack that many things are built on top of. And within that, you can have different ecosystems. You have like Terra is its own little ecosystem built on top of Cosas SDK stack. So, you know, the goal of osmosis is to be, this like neutral place that we can you can come trade your eth or soul and you know have all this

like privacy and stuff that that we're providing people we're working with the axler team on building this like product where people can swap between like you know eth ethereum for avax on avalanche and like one click right they don't actually you know they don't have to actually they don't even have to download a kepler wallet or anything it will just they make the transaction from their metamask and it will, you know, you get picked up by Axler. They'll use this cool technology called interchain accounts. So the Axler chain will do a swap on the osmosis chain and then send the tokens to the destination on Avalanche. And so, you know, I think kind of like the shape shift, like experience, but like, you know, actually live and working in a decentralized way.

So these are sort of the things that I think that will put osmosis ahead, like, you know, at least competing in a similar market to centralized exchanges today. And then when it comes to like the product offering, you know, that's just sort of where we have to go build the best product. You know, we're working on building like everything I've said so far. You know, the reason we're building a lending protocol is because I don't see trading and lending as two different products, right? I think they actually are two sides of the same product because if you want to build,

the best margin trading system, you need your trading engine and your lending engine to be like so well integrated. This is what makes the FTX system so well, so good, because it's like how well integrated their system is. They're sort of like the gold standard. And they have, they can do all these like things like, you know, these like sort of staged liquidations and like, you know, very efficient cross margining and all these kind of things when you have this like sort of integration. That's kind of what we're kind of going for on the product side. I have this integrated stack. And then the last, you know, just like I said, really big focus on UX and brand is another one. So you'll notice that if you go on the osmosis website,

we have all this like colorful artwork and we have this like mad scientist mascot there. His name is Wasmington. We were kind of just like, you know, you look at normal companies in the world today, and they all have mascots, right? Like, you know, you have Ronald McDonald or the Geico lizard or, and it's like, why don't crypto projects have mascots? And so, so yeah, you know, we're just trying to like, I think these are sort of like more subtle like brand and UX things that we think will make osmosis more appealing. All right. Well, this has been an incredibly fascinating discussion. Where can people learn more about you and your work? Yeah, you can follow me on Twitter.

I am at SunnyA97. And you can also follow Osmosis on Twitter. It's at Osmosis Zone. And you can check us out at the website, osmosis.com. Right. Well, thanks so much for coming on Unchained. Awesome. Thank you.

Thanks so much for joining us today. To learn more about Sunny and Osmosis, check out the show notes for this episode. Unchained is produced by me, Laura Shin with Albert, Anthony Youn, Daniel Ness, Mark Murdoch, Shoshonk, and CLK transcription. Thanks for listening.