Unchained - How the DOJ and SEC Cases Against BitClout's Nader Al-Naji Collapsed

Episode Date: April 18, 2026

Debanked 12 times. Walked through an airport in handcuffs. Every charge eventually gone. Nader Al-Naji on the defense strategy that convinced both agencies to back off. ======================================================== Nexo is the premier digital wealth platform. Receive interest on your crypto, borrow against it without selling, and trade a range of assets. Now available in the U.S with 30 days of exclusive privileges.  Get started at http://nexo.com/unchained ======================================================== In July 2024, Nader Al-Naji was preparing to board a flight to Turkey when the FBI arrested him in front of with his wife and son and walked him in handcuffs through the airport.  The DOJ and SEC had jointly charged the DESO and BitClout founder with defrauding investors of $3 million and running an unregistered securities offering. Twenty months later, both cases are gone: the DOJ dismissed in March 2025, the SEC dismissed with prejudice — meaning it can’t be refiled — in March 2026.  Nader tells Laura what actually happened, from the FBI raid on his Beverly Hills home and the clerical error that sent him to federal prison for a weekend, to the legal strategy that convinced both agencies to back off. He also revisits the BitClout celebrity era, the long call with Do Kwon before Terra launched, and the debanking tactic he calls ‘subpoena sniping.’ Host: ⁠⁠⁠Laura Shin⁠⁠⁠, Host / Unchained Guests: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Nader Al-Naji (@nadertheory), Founder of DESO and BitClout Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Hi, everyone. Welcome to Unchained. You're a no-hap resource for all things crypto. I'm your host, Laura Shin. Thanks for joining this live stream. Before we get started, a quick reminder, nothing you hear on Unchained is investment advice. This show is for informational and entertainment purposes only, and my guest and I may hold assets discussed on the show. For more disclosures, visit Unchained Crypto.com. Introducing Nexo, the premier digital wealth platform. Receive interest on your digital assets. Barrow against them without selling. Trade of variety of cryptocurrencies, all-in-one platform, now available in the U.S. Get started today at nexo.com slash unchained. EtherFi is giving Unchained listeners 15% cash back on food and ride apps, and that's on top of the 3% you get on everything else. Your bank is charging you to use your own money. I switched.

Go to Ether.Fi slash Unchained to claim your discount. Bitcoin changed how money works. Satrea changes how Bitcoin scales. With a trust-minimized BTC and a native staple coin, CTUSD, Citraea enables Bitcoin capital markets with lending, privacy, Bitcoin yield, and more. Get started at Citraea.xyZ slash unchained. Today's guest is Nader Al-Nagyi, founder of the DeSo blockchain. Welcome, Natter.

Hi. Thanks for having me, Laura. Yeah, excited to chat with you. So you founded BitCloud and the DeSo blockchain. and before that basis, which was I think maybe the first algorithmic stable coin. But at this point, you might be more known for something that you didn't do or at least something that the government said you did, but then didn't have enough evidence to actually follow through on the cases with. So even though we will get to that in our discussion, so at this point in time, just so people know the cases that the SEC and the Department of Justice brought, against Nader have been dismissed.

But in order to explain how we even got to this situation where all of this happened, we should probably start with Natter's backstory. So Nader, you have actually kind of a long history in crypto. So why don't you tell us that origin story? Take us through your early days in crypto. Yeah. Thanks so much, Laura. Yeah, I love it.

Yeah, maybe actually I'll just, I'll mention that currently I work on a blockchain called Diso, which your listeners might not know about, which is the source of all. of this, like, to set up the context a little bit. And that block, it's short for a decentralized social, and you can basically think of it as, like, Twitter or X, but on a blockchain. And what that means is that, like, when you make a post, it's actually stored on a fully decentralized blockchain and, like, nobody can censor it, which is really cool. So, like, just like nobody can take your Bitcoin. Nobody can censor your content. Like, it's literally,

like, Bitcoin for social media. And, yeah, and so that's what I'm working on today currently. And I just also want to mention that like the blockchain is called Diso, but it used to be called BitClout. And so I'll sometimes switch between D.S.O. and BitClout. And, yeah, and I'm sure we'll get to talk about it a lot, but just quickly on my background. So, like, I studied computer science at Princeton. I graduated in 2013. I worked full-time at a hedge fund called D.E. Shaw. I worked on their high-frequency equities team for a year. Actually, I interned there and worked there full-time. And And then I worked at Google for three years as an engineer. I worked in ads in search.

And then in 2017, I started my first crypto company called Basis, which you mentioned, Laura. And this is before BitCloud, but it's a fun story. I'll just tell it quickly, which is that Basis basically pioneered the concept of an algorithmic stablecoin. So Laura, I think your listeners know a stable coin is basically a crypto dollar. Like it's a dollar you can use on Ethereum or any blockchain. And today, the winning stable coins are tether in USC. and they're backed by dollars in a bank account. But Basis was trying to do a different approach.

We call it algorithmic approach, where the stable coin stability actually comes from a supply adjustment algorithm that keeps the price stable. And I know that sounds crazy, like that, like, oh, that shouldn't work, but it absolutely can under the right conditions. So, yeah, so for BASIS, I raised over $140 million from, yeah, Stan Drucken Miller, like Kevin Warsh, Andresen, Bain, and a lot of other funds and people,

basically to launch an alternative to Tether, but really long term to build what we call the algorithmic central bank, like kind of a digital dollar that doesn't need dollars in a bank account to remain stable. And the original, the basic thesis was that Tether and bank back stable coins in the short term were going to be shut down, actually, and that the only approach to stable coins that would work, even in the short term, would be the algorithmic approach. And again, I know that sounds crazy because Tether and USDC are,

are like so huge today. But in 2017, you might even remember Laura, you know, it really wasn't clear at the time that, you know, you could put dollars in the bank account and issue like a crypto dollar on top of it, you know? It was hard to even like get a bank account as a crypto company, let alone to put like billions of dollars and then make like a no KYC coin on top of it, you know. And then just another like fun sign of the times like of when I started basis. Tether's market cap was also $40 million. I thought. that you'd find that funny, Laura, 4-0, like, a million, like with an M. And of course, now it's over 175 billion. So, you know, like the stable coin problem, like we identified, was a really,

I think a really big problem, especially for the developing world. But our approach was, unfortunately, not the winning one. So after about a year, a year after I raised all that money from investors, it became clear to me, at least, that the bank-backed stablecoins were going to win. and they were going to win because they were like what we referred to at the time as geopolitically aligned, which basically means like they're not going to be shut down because they funnel foreign money into U.S. treasuries. Like that's like we kind of like realized that that was going to happen in 2018. And the thing that like that really like made me a bit not sad, I was happy that like stable coins were getting solved.

But like there was a day when like Coinbase and Circle launched USC in October, October of 2018. And I remember that day because I was like, ah, man. that the bank backed approach is the one that's going to conquer conquer all so um so yeah so the algorithmic approach like like in order to compete like you know it's hard because it's it's not as desired from a stability standpoint so you'd have to pay some kind of yield and like that yield would be unsustainable like you know not to mention like the regulatory climate was pretty bad at the time uh for crypto and like we would run the risk of like our backing token getting delisted which would be like a catastrophic failure uh for everybody so um you know there there were pivots that

like we could have tried, but like I basically decided like the right thing to do is like just to go back to everybody and say like, hey, listen, like this bet, this original bet, like I was wrong. This isn't really going to work how I pitched it to you guys. And I decided to return capital instead. So I ended up returning the entire $140 million to investors. I mean, they got back like, I think like 94 cents on the dollar or something. And I also didn't pay myself while doing it. So like I literally had like less money after than like when I started. And by the way, like, this is just important to keep in mind as we get to like these allegations we're going to talk about. But like this is like a $140 million like entity that I could have, I could have kept going.

Like I could have just like paid myself a lot like for the rest of my life and call it a day. Like I by the way, I had full control of it. I had like I had over like 75% of the equity of basis and board control like something ridiculous. So, you know, if I wanted to grab cash, like I would have I could, that was some great cash to grab. Like I put it that way. So that's just not where I wanted like, yeah, from my department. I did want to ask. So like even before then, like how did you get into Bitcoin at all?

Oh my goodness. Yeah. So actually what happened was in college, this is actually, this is a fun story. So in 2012 when I was in college, I actually was able to mine 24 Bitcoin on free campus electricity. So that's like how easy it was to mine Bitcoin. Like you could do it in your dorm. But there's more actually. So I actually, I remember I was so taken by Bitcoin.

I was like, I need to also buy some. Like, it's not enough. I'm mining it. So I take like a wad of cash to like a CVS, like a convenience store and send it to Mount Gox, which is like this crypto exchange. And then that wasn't enough. I was like, no, no. Like I need to like do more.

So this is actually crazy. Like my friend and I actually went to Japan. It's like the only international trip I did. And we went to meet the CEO of Mount Gox, which I did. So, so we actually. actually in 20. We have that photo. Yeah. Oh, goodness. You and Mark Carpellis. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, you shared it with us. So I think I have it. Yeah, I have it. Yeah, I have it on my desk. And I think Juan Ra, you can share it. Awesome. Juanma. Yeah. And we see that. And we go. Oh, yeah. But we're going to show it on screen. Anyway, keep going. Yeah. Yeah. And I just, I got to talk to Mark. We, we chatted for like two hours about the tech and stuff. Like, obviously, this was before it got shut down and stuff. Um, Yeah, and my friend made the cool picture of it, of me and actually framed it and I keep it on my desk.

But yeah, I just, I love this stuff, man. I'm like, I'm so grateful that like to have been exposed as early as I was and like just to just to be involved with the technology. So yeah, but, but yeah. Okay. And then, yeah. So then you had the idea for BASIS. That's right. You know, so people probably will be aware that BASIS is sort of like an early version of Tether.

and there is a tether connection in your backstory as well. So can you talk about that? Oh, tether connection. You had to chat with Do. Oh, my goodness. Oh, Tara, you made. Yeah, sorry. Oh, I'm running on not very much sleep.

I miss. Oh, my goodness. Yeah, Tara. So, yeah. Very different. Of course. Doe Kwan of Tara Luna fame was actually, he was one of like, dozen or so derivatives of basis that basically after we raised so much money, there were like

a dozen or so other companies that launched to kind of like do something similar, but like maybe like you could say like with a different set of investors or like go after like a different market, you know, and Doe was one of them. And what's interesting is that I actually had a long conversation with Doe after we returned capital. And also before he launched Terra, so it was a kind of in that in-between time. And it's because I really wanted to help him and others launch safely, essentially. Actually, I also talked to the founders of Selo, C-E-L-O, who I think launched much more responsibly.

But it's funny because I actually told Doe when I talked to him, you know, I told him, like, look, you're either going to have a hard time growing against the bank-backed stable coins because they kind of, they solve the stability problem in a more reliable way, like the customer prefers it. And so you're going to have to offer yields, like, in order to compete. But I even explained to him how, like, it's going to be a race to the bottom on yields.

And, like, it's like the wildcat banking era, which, like, heard of it. It's like a time when all these banks were just trying to give more and more yield, like, unsustainably. And, like, and I told him, like, I think this is all going to happen. And it's kind of going to be, like, the craziest person wins, which, like, you don't want to be because it's, like, the biggest blow up risk. But, yeah, but it's crazy. We talked for, like, over an hour. And then, you know, I don't know. He took a different lesson from it, I guess.

But yeah, so kind of crazy. Okay. So now, so, you know, you return the money after BASIS, and at that point, you decided that, or we'll tell how you made the transition from that to Biklap. Yeah, great, great, great question. So in early 2019, basically, I'd returned all the money from BAS and I was done,

and I was thinking about what's next. And that's actually, that's really when I started working on building out BIC. Cloud. So, and BitCloud, DeSoe, same thing, remember. So I started in early 2019 building, essentially, I started building an alternative layer one blockchain that I felt like could power real world applications. Like, look, I was excited about the tech. I was like, I'm going to build a blockchain. I'm going to study all these blockchains. There must be something that we can do better. And remember, like Ethereum had 15 second block times. So it's like kind of hard to

imagine that, like really powering something like a social app. And not only that, but like the cost to store a piece of content on a modern blockchain was like a dollar. And by the way, it still is. Like, even to store like a tweet on Solana, it actually costs you like a dollar. And really, Diso is the only modern blockchain I'm aware of that's brought that down almost close to zero where you can actually really have Twitter on a blockchain that works well, like on DOS. So anyway, I was researching like blockchains and building one. And it kind of became clear that there was like a little opening for a blockchain that could kind of host a decentralized Twitter at scale. And so I started to focus on that and I called it BitCloud.

So basically by late 2020, so I worked like from early 2019, like late 2020, I was really just working on the tech. And by late 2020, we were ready to launch. And this is where it gets interesting. So it's a blockchain. So it has tokens associated with it. And I did a kind of ICO for the tokens. Usually they call initial coin offering. Basically, I sold the tokens of the blockchain. And I did that in a particular way where basically I keep 20% of the tokens and the other 80% were sold for Bitcoin in an interesting way where like the price starts at like 50 cents per coin. But it goes, it doubles for every million tokens sold. And so that the reason I mentioned that process like why it's notable is ended up raising like over 4,000 Bitcoin to fund the project,

which was amazing. And yeah, and we still have the fun, still going strong. It was amazing. But there was one more thing that made BitClout, I think, really go viral and probably why a lot of your listeners know about it, which was a feature we called Creator Coins. So to bootstrap the social network on the blockchain, essentially kind of for fun, we made it so that every profile could have a coin associated with it optionally if you want. And we called that your creator coin.

And anyone could buy or sell your coin, and the price would go up as more people buy and would go down as more people sell. And some of your listeners might be familiar with that concept. It's called a bonding curve today. So today, people know pump. fun for what are called bonding curve meme coins. But that concept actually originated from BitCloud, believe it or not. We were the first to pioneer the concept of what I would call bonding curve coins. And the lineage is funny. It inspired an app called Friend.com.

And then that inspired Pump Fun from BitClout. But yeah, it's kind of fun. And obviously they innovated as well, which is great. But yeah. So anyway, in addition to just the concept of these bonding curve coins, we preloaded the top thousand profiles or so from X onto the blockchain with coins that you could trade. And then we made it so that the coins accrue trading fees.

and the owners of the X accounts could claim those fees by posting on X about BitClout. So you can imagine it's kind of a powerful viral loop. Basically, like, every high profile person that we pre-loaded a profile for had a lot of trading fees sitting there and basically heard about it, either through friends or family who were like,

oh, my God, like, you've got to claim this money, or through someone who bought their coin and wanted them to claim so that it would go up after they bought it. And so it, and by the way, there were just a really long list of like high profile people who joined. Like literally just to name a few, like Logan Paul, I think you just showed. But also like Gwyneth Paltrow, Tiffany Trump was super active, Snoop Dog, basically every venture capitalist.

I mean, like, Mark Andreessen is funny. I actually had breakfast at Mark Andreessen's house. And he like, I like showed him how to claim his profile and he claimed it with me. And it was like super fun. Actually, another funny one is I met Peter Thiel one-on-one. and showed him. And he was like, Elon is this high?

You know? And I was like his first question. I was like, Elon's number one? It was so funny. I just can't make that up. But yeah, everybody was,

it was such a viral sensation. It was incredibly mainstream. And actually, just one more thing is, it was actually really big in Hollywood, I would mention, because they really,

I think, Hollywood in particular, people in Hollywood side as kind of a way to monetize fame. So just a couple other funny stories like Gai Osiri, who's like this really, big Hollywood guy. He like showed up at this apartment in SF where we were working, like unannounced.

He just showed up and was like, hey, I'm Guy O'Syrie and like wanted to just hang out for like two hours to be involved, which was, which was really funny. And another funny story, like Michael Kivis. He's actually the guy who like helped Sam Bankman Fried like meet Bill Clinton. Like you can look him up. He actually became a friend and like we would get lunch in like Beverly Hills. And the funny thing about Kivas is he, Kivas actually threw us like a bit caught party at his house with like Kim Kardashian and like so many other celebrities. Like I met like Sergey Brin there and Eric Schmidt there.

Kamala Harris's husband was there. And I like sat like, yeah, I sat like next to Kim Kardashian for like an hour and like just talk to her about like, I don't even know what I remember and like Ted Sarandas over here. And yeah, and actually it was, I think it was like his first post-COVID party or something. So it was just like super fun.

And then just one more funny. crazy thing I have to mention. I met Mike Ovitz at his house. And he's, he's like this really big Hollywood agent, like founder of CAA. And he really got it. He bought coins. And then I met like all the partners of CAA and they bought coins. And I think they're still holding their coins, which is cool. So look, it was a big deal. And, you know, I think it was really seen as like a new way to like monetize fame and influence. I think by the way it still has potential as a concept. And it was the first of its kind. So yeah, so I'll go and mixed stable coins, like bonding curves and like decentralized social media.

You know, I would say those are like the big things that you could know me by. And yeah, and today I'm really focused on the DESO blockchain. Again, just to mention because it is what I'm working on now, like it's the only platform where you can post content directly to a blockchain. It's really important, by the way, because like centralized platforms like X and meta, they can like censor, they not only can like just straight up like ban accounts, but they can like quietly censor content. And that doesn't really work on DOS because all the content is open.

And you can actually see when that's happening. And so it's really the first time where we can have a conversation about like algorithms and like what they're doing and actually know what they're doing, like auditable in terms of like how reach is changing. And it's also kind of the perfect use case for a transparent blockchain. And yeah, so do you so blockchain? And that's what I'm working on now. So yeah. Okay. So now, well, no, before we move on, actually, I think you also have a fun.

story about some crypto exchanges that wanted to buy BitCloud. Oh, yeah. Yeah, that's really funny. So I think I mentioned how you could buy coins for Bitcoin. And it really, it's a very hands-off process, like put Bitcoin, send Bitcoin to the wallet, and then you get coins. And what happened was after, like, at some point, like after there was like a thousand bitcoins in the wallet, like a lot of people had come in.

Coinbase and Huobi's venture teams were interested. and they were like, we really want to be involved, we want to buy coins. And I was like, great, just send your Bitcoin, like go to the app, like any node running

and like send your Bitcoin to the wallet. And it's really funny because they came back to me and they said, Natter, we have this problem, which is that we have to send Fiat. We need a counterparty.

And by the way, we can't custody coins either? Like, that's really hard for us. So, like, can you like, can you like do something? And so I worked with a lawyer, you know, to get them essentially like a short document that basically says, hey, like this entity is going to take your fiat, convert it to Bitcoin, and then buy BitCloud tokens with your Bitcoin. And really, we did that for maybe like a couple dozen people. And yeah, but overall, I think there were like over 44,000 purchases of coins, which is crazy, just like in total, in total.

And I have no idea who any one of the, like, I just don't know, like, who those people are, which is the amazing power of crypto that you can, like, distribute a network like so effectively and not even know those people who now are passionate about the project and wanted to succeed off of an idea, like literally. So, yeah. Yeah, so you're kind of living this amazing life. You know, you're interfacing with celebrities. Your project was featured in the New Yorker. Like, and it's not just celebrities, but, you know, kind of a huge range. It's like, you know, people and the high echelons of tech and entertainment. And, you know, it's just like government. It's just very all over the place. But then in July 24, you were arrested. And the DOJ. and as you see, both announced fraud cases against you. So before we get into the details of what they were alleging, I'm so curious, tell me about that day. Oh, my goodness. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, maybe Laura, do you want me to tell the timeline?

I mean, that day, go ahead, go ahead, timeline. We'll start with the timeline. It's crazy. I mean, look, I've been dealing with this for like four years. And another thing, Laura, I would mention is like, I had lawyers, like plural, like from the very beginning. Like from the very beginning, I'm like, is it okay to launch a blockchain like this? Like every decision, like I ran by a lawyer, every transaction, like I vetted with lawyers.

You know, I've been trying to play by the rules. And like, you just have to understand that context and like understand like this still happened. Right. But anyway, so in terms of the timeline, so like 2021 was when BitClout launched and it went like super totally viral. It was a super fun year. That's when all that, all the funny stories, you know, that I was mentioning happened. and really had just no idea that the government was, I just would never imagine why they would want to do something,

especially given like all the work I put in into like compliance. But yeah, like in mid-2020, we were listed on a few exchanges, including Coinbase. And a few of the bigger coin holders called me, and they told me that their accounts got subpoenaed. And now you have to understand, like, I didn't even know what like a subpoena was. I was like, you got some like peanut butter,

Like, can you say that again? What? But literally, like, once I learned what it was, like, it's basically, by the way, it's basically like a request for information, basically from the exchange about, like, about the coins. But like, I was like, okay, maybe this is standard thing. Maybe they're doing it for like all the tokens on Coinbase. And by the way, they were.

They were doing it for like a lot of them. I learned from investors. But yeah, but like, I didn't think much of it. So then a little later in like mid-2020, maybe like a couple months after that, I noticed like some of the big holders that I was friends with, like they weren't as communicative with me. And you have to understand people who are involved in my projects,

like I treat them, they're like my partners. Like I really care about them. I want to make sure that like we all do well together. And they were like kind of like gone silent on me a little bit. And I learned after like they all told me after that it was because they'd gotten approached by the SEC directly.

And what happened basically is their lawyers like told them not to talk to me. And it's funny because like I actually found that out in real time, like not specifically from each person until after, but like I found out in real time because a bunch of people ignored their lawyers and like called me anyway on Signal and like told me like, hey man, like, you know, the SEC is like trying to talk to me. I'm going to say no. You know, and I'm like, oh, wow, interesting. So that's kind of when I was like, hmm, maybe something's going on.

And I don't remember when FTX was, but like I think it was around 2022 or something. November 2020. Yeah. So I think it was. November of 2020. It was in late 2022. I don't remember the exact month, actually. It's kind of funny. But that's when things really heated up for me, because

that's when the FBI came to raid my house in Beverly Hills. So that was crazy. And that was like, when the FBI raids your house, they bring like a whole team of FBI agents. They brought like a dozen people. And it's so funny because like, you know,

I'm in crypto and I'm like, I'm like, I'm like very skeptical. So I was like, how do I know your FBI? You know? which is really funny. I mean, they probably, they get it from time to time. But they showed me their badge and I was like, I don't know if that's real, you know.

But yeah, it was crazy. Like my wife woke me up and I was like, oh my God, what? You know, and I brought them in. I offered them tea and coffee as one does. But yeah, they wanted to ask me some questions. And I was like, I think I'm going to like talk to my lawyer. And they said, if you give us your phones,

we won't raid your house. And I said, hmm, interesting. I guess I don't, I don't know. Like, do I like care if you raid my, like, I don't know. Because, you know, like, I kind of need my phone, but I also need like all the stuff in my house. So I was like, okay, here's my phone. And it's good practice in general. If you're giving your phone to anyone, turn it off and like wipe the screen. because in general, either it ranges from time to time, but it's typically very difficult to unencrypt a phone once it's been turned off fully. Like when you hear about someone hacking a phone,

it's usually because it's been turned on and the code has been entered at some point in that. And so like the key is in memory. So I turned off my phone. I did all the stuff you're supposed to do. I wiped it on my thing. I gave it to him. And then he turns it on.

He's like, can you unlock this for us? And I was like, hey, I don't want to unlock it for you. It's my phone. Like, you know, you unlock it. But, you know, I thought about it and I was like, you know, I really, I've done nothing wrong. Like, I don't have to worry about anything. And so I voluntarily, I was just like, all right, fine, here you go. Now go away.

So they actually left without rating my house. And they just took my phones, which, by the way, is how they have like a bunch of signal messages and telegram messages. Like, usually, my understanding is that when the, when you see like a signal message in like an FBI or like DOJ or SEC thing, it's because they took the person's phone. like just FYI. That's my understanding. I don't think they can break signal, which is important to me. I care that people can be privately.

We have desope messages, which are like, I know are secure, like more secure than Signal, but I use Signal a lot. So, but anyway, so immediately after that,

what's even crazier is, like, I basically called all my employees and my former employees too, and I said, hey, did the FBI, like,

come and raid your house today? Or, like, any time in, like, last way. It's really funny. literally like called them and asked that. And and the answer for like five of them was like actually yes today. So they not only came to my house, but at the exact same time they tried to hit like five

people who were involved with the project early on. And thank God that I called everybody. And by the way, thank God I'm on good terms even with people who I let go. Because I did something, I did something smart, which like I actually recommend for anyone dealing with any kind of government investigation. Which is I told everybody like, hey, listen, like, I'm going to handle this. I'm going to make sure nothing happens to you. I'm going to cover all your legal fees. And I'm like, this is a good lawyer. Like, we're going to, like, all the people who are not me are going to use this person.

And like, I really recommend it, you know. And, you know, thankfully everybody was like, wow, Natter, that's great. You know, I don't want to spend 200K in legal fees. And the reason why it was so amazing is because it allowed me to put everyone under a single lawyer. which was not only like very cost efficient, like for the group, it's like super cost efficient. But it also allowed us to coordinate. Like you're allowed, like, lawyer to lawyer, like, is allowed, you know, like, even if I'm not allowed to talk to someone at a later. Like, I think at that point I was allowed to talk to, but like later on maybe you're not going to be allowed to, but your lawyers can talk.

So that was super critical. Like, frankly, like, we grew closer through it, which is kind of amazing. And, like, actually we had one of the people who had left and was involved in that actually came back after, like, recently. like to work on the project. So it's really great. But yeah, anyway, FBI comes to raid my house. This is late 2022. And then we get into the arrest,

which I think, do you want me to just keep going? Yeah, yeah. Yeah, it's just a little bit, like, it's like another like two minutes. So, yeah, so basically late 2022, they come in for a raid. And then that basically started a process of like document. like they were requesting from us.

And because basically they got my phone, but they're like, oh, like, we want all your emails and this stuff. And like, they just ask you to give it to them. And I was like, yeah, whatever. Like, fine, here you go. Even though they have your phone. I don't know. It's the government.

Like, they just, that's their process. So that took a while because like the government moves kind of slowly. So basically until mid-20203, like six months later, we were just like producing all the stuff that they wanted. And at this point, I did kind of like a weird legal maneuver that like essentially like bought me a year and like I thought had canceled the DOJ investigation. It's kind of complicated. I'll go into it later.

But okay, the key thing to understand basically is that at that point, so like by the end of like mid-20203 we'd like produce a bunch of documents. And then like end of 2023, it looked like the DOJ was done, like that they'd stop pursuing the case. and that we only had the SEC to deal with. And also, like, just to clarify something, like, in almost all cases where, like, the SEC, like, was pursuing someone in crypto, they would work jointly with the DOJ. And the reason, basically, is that, like, the DOJ can arrest you and, like, put a lot of pressure on you, whereas the SEC cannot.

Like, specifically, like, legally, the SEC in the United States is a civil litigator, which means that, like, the most they can do is basically fine you. But the DOJ is a criminal litigator. So, like, they can actually put you in jail. Like, in my opinion, those are completely different things, and one is much worse than the other. And so that's why we were much more concerned about the DOJ going away in general. But the way it works logistically is the DOJ kind of has the first bite at the apple. And so the DOJ, if they're interested in the case, you'll be dealing with them and dealing with them and dealing with them until they either, like, decide to take it all the way or dismiss it.

or like say like we don't want it. And only then you'll start dealing with the SEC after. And there are literally people who like get off from the DOJ and then they get like the SEC beats them somehow, which sucks. But that sucks. That's just how it works. That's how the system works.

And the reason why I explain all that is by the end of 2023, the SEC reached out and was like, hey, we want to talk to you now. And my lawyers and I, like our lawyers and I were like, oh my goodness, this is amazing. The SEC wants to talk to us because it means the DOJ is finished, right? And so, you know, we're talking with the SEC,

like basically just trying to convince them that that there was a mistake and like the nature of the mistake and blah, blah, blah. And then in summer of 2024, so, you know, I haven't heard from the DOJ like for a year, like since like June of 2023, basically I hadn't heard from them. And I thought we were completely done.

Like literally my lawyers told me like, yeah, like, we can't be 100% sure the DOJ is done, but we've never seen the DOJ come back after the SEC started dealing with someone. That's basically what they told me. So I was like, cool, that sounds great. Sounds like I can go on my family vacation that I do every year, literally. And so in summer of 2024, I booked a family vacation to Turkey. And you have to understand, like my wife's Turkish. Like, I've been going every single year, like around the same time for the last four years, including the year before, before the FBI came to my house.

And I literally, like, I booked it like two weeks in advance also. Like I didn't even, I literally like, I asked my lawyers and they were like, you should be no problem. And I booked it because I thought the DOJ stuff was done and like SEC, just a civil issue. Like, that's not, they don't care about me traveling. And that's when I was arrested. So we were about to board the plane and they arrested me in front of my wife and son before we could board. and they walked me through the whole airport in handcuffs. And yeah, like at one point, I swear,

we were about to walk in front of, like, thousands of people. There's just, I've never seen so many people in the airport. Like, just so happens that day. They're all there. Like, what's going on? But I told the FBI agents, I was like, hey, guys, like, can we, like put a sweater over my cuffs so that, like, they don't, like, all take TikToks with me or whatever?

And luckily, like, they were reasonable about that and, like, nobody noticed. But, yeah, I spent the night in jail. and then because of a clerical error, I actually went to federal prison for two days, which was a crazy experience. And like, just so you understand, yeah, like, Laura, you might know this, but just for real listeners, like, jail is for people who, like, haven't been convicted of anything.

They're kind of just, like, waiting to see a judge. Whereas prison is, like, actual convicted criminals. Like, they're doing time, you know? They're doing time. So that was a crazy experience because, and by the way, the reason why that happened is, like, it's the weekend. So like I think I was arrested like on a Friday evening and then like couldn't get bail until Monday. It's the government. You know, it's great. Like that's how it is. And so,

yeah, so crazy experience. You know, um, there, you might know this, Laura, but there are like gangs in prison and like I confused the gangs because they, they basically, they break into groups by race. And so there was like a white, a group, a Mexican group. I call them the scary Mexican group. That's the third group, which is like people with like face tattoos. And then there was other. And other is like black people and Asian people basically. And like, you know, like not quite white, I guess. So what's funny is I go into this, this giant playground of the federal prison.

And they're competing for my, for my loyalty because they don't know if I'm white or if I'm other. You know? And so they bring me, the first night, the guy brings me this oatmeal. He's like, hey, boss, like here, like have this, have this like oatmeal with water. And I'm like, okay, is this safe? like, you know, I ate it. I was so hungry. I just didn't, you know. And, but, you know, it's a crazy.

It gives you gratitude for, like, everything that comes after in your life, you know? Like, and, and yeah, it was just a crazy experience. But yeah, they tried to flame it, like, I was fleeing to Turkey. But, like, that's completely absurd because, like, not only do I go every year, but, like, why would I book the ticket, like, two weeks in advance if I was fleeing? I'd, like, be this stupidest fleer. Like, my lawyer was like, dude, like, you'd be the stupidest fleer of all time. But anyway, this was summer of 2024.

And after I get out, I basically go scorched earth. Like me, my wife, my brother, the whole team, it's 100% the only thing we're dealing with. Okay, okay. So let's, we're going to. I know it's a long story, but we really want to hear it. I really want to hear it. But first, we're going to take a quick word for this one. who think the show possible.

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Get started at satraia.xyz slash unchanged. Back to my conversation with Natter. So I am very excited to hear you talk about how you went scorched earth. But right before we do that, I just want to make it clear. So at this time that you were arrested, which was in July of 2024, that's when the allegations became public. So, you know, I don't remember how specific. we got into this, but DOJ and SEC both announced fraud cases. And just to make clear, you know,

when we say DOJ, in this particular instance, it was the Southern District of New York, which, for those who don't know, that's the most prestigious and influential prosecutor's office in the United States. Therefore, it is the most feared the location Southern District of New York is like literally Wall Street. So, you know, U.S. Attorney Damian Williams said that Natter had defrauded investors of approximately $3 million. The SEC also charged another with fraud and an unregistered securities offering. I don't know if there's more about those allegations you want to explain just to help people understand. And then we'll hear the scorched short story. Yeah. Great question. Yeah. So the DOJ was like wire fraud, which is like I lied to an investor. And the SEC was very complicated.

They kind of just threw a kitchen sink of like character assassination into this like giant complaint. But later like they basically said they were trying to get me for like issuing an unregistered security. So they were trying to argue that BitClout, like the token was a security and that I like by selling it violated security's law and therefore have to like pay big fines, give back the money. That's what the SEC was saying. the DOJ case was super weird because they were saying that I lied to someone who bought tokens. But the actual email thread that they had was like they were basically saying like, hey, like can we like do something to make sure that like the Bitcoin is spent in this way? And I basically said no.

And then they argued that I said no in a way where it wasn't true. I think I said like I can't do that or something and they were like but he could do it. And it's like what? Anyway, it was very feeble. I think it's better to go into it with all the context. Yeah. Yeah. And just to make clear, like it dragged in, you know, your family.

They said like you paid, you know, like your wife and your father-in-law and, you know, there was something about your rent and your Beverly Hills Mansion. So yeah. Yeah. Okay. Go ahead. I will come back to that. I promise.

But yeah. So these allegations. come out. They're super feeble and, like, to me, to me, they're super feeble. I'm like, what is this? My lawyers are like, what is this? This makes no sense. Especially the people who helped me set up the structure. But basically, the most important thing I did immediately when we got out is we called a dozen different law firms. And that's what I mean by scorched earth. And I'm pretty sure we found the number one defense firm in the country. And they're called Williams and Connolly. And the reason why I like them so much is because every other, and

this is just tips for people who are dealing with stuff. Like, if you ever deal with stuff like I dealt with, I want you to know. Every defense firm typically hires former prosecutors. So they're like, they will tout that this person was like head of the SDNY, like the Southern District of New York, like you mentioned, or this person was head of this or head of that. And Williams and Connolly, as far as I know, is the only one who not only never hires from the government,

but they hate the government. It's like a whole thing. The entire DNA is we hate the government, and we're trying to get every single person we interact with fired. And that's us. And what I learned after actually is that law firms, when law firms need defense or litigation against the government, they actually all use Williams and Connolly, which is super like mind-blowing because they are the only ones who are counter positioned in this way. And it turns out to be like, super effective. Now, we didn't actually, I'm kind of sad that I like didn't do anything wrong because like they were so powerful. Like they just kind of had to explain the facts. I feel like they were like underutilized, like if that makes sense. But the reason why they're so powerful is that often when you have someone who's a defense attorney, they'll be sympathetic to the government or they'll be like, you know, they'll meet up and they'll be like, hey, how you doing? You know, whereas Williams and Connolly, like they're not afraid.

in particular to go after like procedural things. You know, like, for example, the way that the FBI agent took my phone is super bad and, like, could get him fired, like, the way in which he did that. Even bigger, the person in the SDNY who, like, authorized the article to be written about me, she violated a court order. Because in court, when I was, like, arraigned after getting bail, I said, like, the judge asked me, like, do you want the charges to be unsealed? And I said, no. As she said, it's you're right. And I said, no. And they, SDNY ignored that. And emailed the lawyer after

she released it. Oh, sorry. Like, is this okay? And, like, we could have fired her for that. It could have gotten her fired for that. And, like, I don't want to get anyone fired. Like, even someone was putting me in jail if they're, like, acting in good faith. But that's the kind of stuff that Williams and Connolly isn't afraid of doing. Like, like, you know, they're really on, they're actually on your side, I would say, which is very powerful. So anyway, I got them on board and it's like, all right, like, let's go. And like, by March, so this was like summer of 2024, we're dealing, that's when I got arrested. So March of 2025 is when the DOJ dismisses after like a lot of back and forth.

And it's important to understand that like it's hard to secure a dismissal, like even if you did anything wrong. Even with the facts like vary in your favor. And like just to talk about like the process. It's like, I jokingly refer to it. It's like the worst customer service experience ever, like how to get something, that's like getting something dismissed. Like, like, it's like, okay,

like you know you have a problem and then you call customer service. And the agent, like, they're not super helpful. And you're like, okay, screw it. I want to speak to your manager, you know, and you go up and maybe the manager has the power to help you. Maybe they don't. And they're like, no, no, I want to speak to your manager. And you just keep going up until there's someone who can actually help you,

who actually, like, knows what's going on and actually help you. and frankly, that's kind of how it was in my case, but I think how it is in general, dealing with the DOJ and SEC. So with the DOJ, the person who brought the case and had me arrested was kind of a junior person who, like, also I'd never met her before.

I think she just, I think the SEC, like, kind of almost like misled her into thinking that there was more to the case than there actually was. And they were like, oh, he's fleeing, he's fleeing. And she's like, oh, well, SEC, like, you know, they probably know what they're talking about. and I think frankly she overreacted and so

so she's kind of the first point of the first person we tried to convince and so you know my lawyers go in there and they explain everything and and you know like it was very nice like it's not mean I mentioned how Williams and Connolly is like very ruthless but it wasn't like that

like not yet you know like we didn't need that basically again I say like they were underutilized in my case but we try to convince her and it doesn't work and And it never works with like the first person because they brought the case and like they don't really have a good off ramp, you know, just by themselves. So with the DOJ, we were like, okay, well, like, let's have a meeting with your manager and like, like, like, talk about this. And we did that. And literally like, like, we talked to the, to her boss. And the boss was like, I kind of get it. I don't think this is like, I don't think anything actually wrong like happened here. Like, we're going to let it go. And, and that was great. I was like, oh, my God, this is going to get dismissed like before the end of the year. That would be amazing. But then, like, Trump. gets elected, that guy leaves before he files the paperwork. And there's like, we have to wait for like a new guy to come in and then bring the lawyers in again to give the same presentation again,

which like, by the way, ain't cheap because they have to like actually go to New York and do it. But anyway, we talked to the new boss. And luckily, you know, he actually got it too, like immediately. And that's basically why it was dismissed quickly. Like I think the DOJ, like, you know, I mean, I don't think it was reasonable to arrest me. Like they definitely did that without, like, knowing anything that they should have known. But in terms of the dismissal, I think they were reasonable. So anyway, thank God, you know, that we had like kind of reasonable people. Yeah, and I just want to like note something.

So I saw that a crypto lawyer who I respect and who is very familiar with these types of cases. This is J.W. Verrett, who is a professor of law at George Mason University. He also served on the advisory committee at the SEC, and he wrote a blog post about your case, and he said, quote, when both the criminal and civil cases collapse on the same underlying facts, the inference is straightforward. The evidence did not hold up under sustained scrutiny. Al-Naghi maintained throughout the litigation that Big Cloud was a genuinely decentralized protocol, and that prosecutors had taken internal messages out of context, proving that a founder, exercise the kind of centralized intentional control necessary to sustain a fraud charge,

rather than simply operating an experimental early-stage blockchain, turned out to be harder than alleging it in a complaint. So, you know, he's saying like basically kind of what you're saying, but in a more lawyerly way, that they maybe made the complaints without having all the facts, like maybe it looked a certain way. And then when they were like, we're going to try to, you know, push this case through, they realized, oh, well, okay, actually we don't have enough of the facts to, to win. So, um, at least that's what he's inferring in this post. So yeah. Yeah. And, and, and I would, I would even, I would even say it a bit differently, Laura, which is like, like, to defend the DOJ and the SEC, like to make their, uh, what is it, Steelman, like their thing. You know, look, they,

they saw a lot of Bitcoin, like going to a wallet, you know, they saw Bitcoin coming out of the wallet, like going into like my bank account and then like going to other people, you know, like to them, like, okay, like that does look sketchy, but it's not fair to completely ignore the context of like who I am, how I do things, the fact that all of that has a structure around it that they don't have context on. So really, I would say the reason why it was dismissed so quickly is essentially they had half of the story that looked super, like, that half of the story, I can understand why, like, maybe they would have been like, the other half definitely looks bad.

But I think this is just a weird case where, like, when you actually look at the other half, you're like, oh, my God, this is the most thoughtful, like, way that, like, we've seen someone structure something, you know? Like, so I think that it was more of that. Like, basically just, like, they had half of the story, and that story looked a certain way to them. And when they got the other half, they were, like, pretty quick, at least the DOJ was, like, pretty quickly like, okay, like, I get it. I see what happened here. Yeah, it's fine. Yeah. So explain

that. So like explain kind of what the transactions looked like to them and then what was actually happening. Yeah, absolutely. So like basically, Laura, like something that you have to understand about like how it is to operate in crypto, right, is that, well, maybe I'll just go back a second, right? Like just about BitCloud. Like when we set it up, like there was no corporate entity associated with it. So like the idea is it's just like Bitcoin. It has no corporate entity. Like Bitcoin didn't have a corporate entity behind it. And so we didn't want to have one either. And we would say it's literally like it's just coins and code. And that was actually true. Like even at the very beginning, the first time any corporate entity was involved was the helping the exchanges buy coins. And that entity was just a helper. Like it literally would just like take Fiat, convert it to Bitcoin, and then participate in that on blockchain conversion into coins. Right.

And so that setup of like people are just sending Bitcoin here and getting coins is what it was. Whereas they actually thought like, oh, he's saying it's decentralized, but actually there's this like corporate entity that's like running everything. and that makes it a security, that makes it like all kinds of stuff. And then not only that, but another thing, Laura, that's important, is I was debanked a lot.

It's very hard, like, in crypto at that time. It was kind of hard for me personally to get a bank account, for like my entities to get a bank account. So another thing that looked really weird is like, like the flows, like that corporate entity, like it didn't have a bank account initially. And so money was. like in my account and like segregated like in my accounting system and also checked by lawyers.

Like I was like, is it okay if I do this temporarily? They're like, yes, just catalog everything extremely carefully and like fix it when you get a bank account. You know, so to them, it's like, okay, like money flowed into my account and then into the corporate entity, you know, like later, but like why did it go to my account? You know, so yeah, so those flows looked like super weird to them and it's like understandable that it did. But then like you show them like my accounting system and then they talk to my lawyers and they're like, oh, man, that's weird, you know, but like, I guess I get it, you know? It's like, you know what I'm saying? Like, it's super weird. Yeah, this is, so people have probably heard this expression before Operation Shoke Point 2.0.

You know, this is how crypto people like call a phenomenon that they saw where so many crypto entrepreneurs either got debanked or we're not able to get bank accounts. and, you know, the Biden administration denied that that's what they were doing. We actually wrote an article here about how it looked like there was like an unspoken or unwritten rule with a specific percentage. No more than 15% of, I forget it was like balances or if it was probably balances. No more than 15% of balances at a bank could be from, a crypto entity, like a crypto, either person or company. But like from the article, like, sources were like, we think they're specifically trying not to write it or or make it sound

like a policy to avoid being fought on that. Yeah. So. And if I can, Laura, just talk about debanking for two seconds. And also, I do want to mention like the specific charges like, oh, he sent like gifts to his family members because that's also like really maybe if you could say funny, crazy story, but let me just say, I've been debanked a lot. It's over a dozen times at this point, and it's actually a tactic that the

government does against people they're pursuing that I experience firsthand, and I can actually tell you how it works. So the way that it was working with the SEC under Gensler is they would send the bank a subpoena, and basically when a bank gets a subpoena, which is a request for information, but when they get it from the SEC,

my understanding, at least what happened to me, is they immediately kick out the person. And even, by the way, maybe it was more heavy-handed, but like even Trump got debanked. He had like 300 real estate companies get debanked. But anyway, one of the big reasons why they do, we call it subpoena sniping, like with my lawyers. But one of the reasons they target your bank accounts. And by the way, my understanding is it's been happening to like anyone pursued by these agencies.

It just so happens that like crypto was like more pursued and like, you know, I think like maybe that's like partially why it gets more associated. But it sounds like for my lawyers, it's like a common thing. They try and shut down all your bank accounts. And one of the reasons actually that my lawyers told me is that it prevents you from being able to pay lawyers. And so your lawyers stop defending you and then they like win by default. And it's to the point where I will tell you, Laura, like not just one law firm, like three separate law firms told me like before I even worked with them. They're like, by the way, like you should send us a lot of money so we can hold it for you so that it.

if they target you and you can't in your bank account gets lost, like we can pay the legal fees. So basically they're saying, like, get money out of you to other people that are harder to target. And they're saying, we're the people that you should send it to, which is, by the way, great for them. But it stems from a real need,

which is their clients get their funds, like either lose banking or maybe even get them frozen, which didn't happen to me, but like this stuff happens. So anyway, by the way, also just really, if you've never been debanked before, it is the biggest F you that an institution can ever give you. Like, no matter how long you've been a customer,

even if it's like 10 years, this is what happens. Your accounts, like, closed instantly. You call the bank, they don't even tell you why. They say, like, they're not legally allowed to tell you. That's literally what they tell you. And the relationship manager, like, you call them, they don't want to talk to you, even though you've known them for forever. And then you're like, okay, okay, fine, fine.

Look, I don't even care anymore. Just give me my money, right? And they're like, oh, yeah, no problem. We already sent the check. get there in two weeks. And you're like, what, like, why does it take that? Like, like, there's nothing takes that long. And literally the reason is they want to earn interest on your money while you're debanked. That's literally like the reason. And guess what? If your address is out of date, good luck, because that money is probably gone forever. Like, literally I have like 25K with a neo bank and like 25K

with Amix. It's basically gone forever because the address was wrong. Like, it was outdated. And like, Amix also canceled all my points. So like, yeah, your points are just gone when they like debank you from Amix. But yeah, but the best. But yeah, but the best. part, no, but this is the best part. The best part is like, okay, two weeks go by, like, your address was good, hopefully, and then finally, you finally get your check in the mail, and there's just one problem. You can't actually cash it because you don't have a bank, right? So it's like so annoying. So anyway, I was debanked a lot over 12 times, and this just goes back to why the payments are weird, just to explain it, bring it back. But to work around this,

I basically always had two bank accounts. I have main bank account. and I have a backup bank account. And there was one day where both my main bank account and my backup bank account shut down at the same time. And I just had no Fiat like capabilities. Wow. You know, like it was so bad. And when that happened, obviously it was super annoying. Like thankfully, by the way, I pay my team in crypto.

So like it actually didn't affect payroll. But there's a lot of Fiat stuff. Like, you know, we run like infrastructure that needs Fiat. Like a lot of stuff. It's like, it's annoying. And at that day, I was like, I need backup. and I call my lawyer, one of them. And I was like, hey man, like, I don't know what to do.

I kind of need, like, someone else to, like, hold money for me in case I, like, really lose, like, fiat access. And I basically was like, is it bad, like, if I send money to, like, some family, just, like, in case, you know? And he was pretty chill about it. Like, he'd actually seen it, seen something like it before. And he was like, look, that's no problem. But we really should make sure we report it as a gift.

So the IRS doesn't get mad at us and so that like we're on the safe side of everything. So I was like, okay, cool, no problem. Like, that sounds, I actually like that, like, you know, like we're being above board about it. And the funniest part is literally, like, it's because I reported it as a gift that they, like, got excited about it. Like, otherwise, I don't think they would have like literally like even, you know, like processed it. They'd have been like, whatever, right? But like, oh, we can call it a gift. And then, like, he's gifting his family, right?

But the short way I would say it is like, okay, like what would you do if you thought you weren't going to be able to access the Fiat system for a while, right? Well, like, you'd probably ask your like family to hold some money for you, you know? And okay, and now what would you do if you were a criminal, right? Well, first of all, probably you'd send it in crypto, not in Fiat, right? That seems like, and that's something I kind of know about, which like I didn't do. It's a Fiat thing to be above board. And by the way, you probably wouldn't report it if you're a criminal, right? Like, why would you report it?

So anyway, look, like getting D-Bank sucks. I was just trying to put money in a couple of places that could be a backup. And frankly, it was very useful. Like, when I needed bail, I mean, thank God, like, you know, my wife had access to the money that you get me out. You know, like. Yeah, I mean, it looks shitty. I get it, you know. Yeah, it's funny because they like come into your life.

and they start kind of creating all of this pandemonium. So you start getting worried. And in order to protect yourself, they do something that they then become convinced shows that you are actually the criminal. It's tricky. But in this case, it was above board. Like, I'm allowed to do that in that case. And I think that's very important.

I wouldn't have done it if I wasn't allowed to. I would have figured out something else, you know? Okay. So like I, so what was interesting is, at a certain point, you actually thought that DOJ had gone silent and the SEC started talking to you, which meant that most likely the DOJ was no longer pursuing the investigation. But then at that point, you got arrested. So how did you actually resolve the cases? Yeah. So the DOJ was kind of just literally explaining to them all these goofy details that I'm explaining to you. and showing them communications they didn't have, like with lawyers and stuff and explaining, like,

look, like, this was really fine. Like, I know it looks really weird, but it's fine. And that was fine with the DOJ. So the DOJ really, you know, just talking to the prosecutor and the prosecutor's boss once the new boss came in, they got it. Like, they were like, this is fine. We understand.

It's super weird, but we get it. And the SEC, unfortunately. So the DOJ had dismissed it in March of 2025. But the SEC took a whole other year, so they didn't dismiss it until March of this year. So just literally like a few weeks ago. And literally the reason why is that it's just it's customer service thing again. Like, you know, the way it works logistically with the SEC, they're slower, like a little more bureaucratic. And frankly, they were more anti-crypto than the DOJ.

So they like, they had to take a little bit more convincing, you know. but like just to mention like briefly, right? Like we had to go up the chain like several times with the SEC, like not just like one time, but like maybe like I think it was like three or four times. And at one point like my lawyer was in a room with like a dozen SEC people explaining very clearly like why DeSo isn't a security and like why all of my transactions make sense and like it's fine. But yeah, it's like over like a dozen people in the room. Like that's just how bureaucratic it is to like deal with something like this.

You know, so it's like a lot of like, it's like, is this how you spend government resources? Like, it's fine, I guess. You know, not to mention my legal fees. But anyway, eventually with the SEC, someone in that room who was pretty high up the chain, you know, got the whole, the whole pitch from my lawyer, and they were finally the right person who understood it. And they realized that the case, like, they were missing a lot about the case when they charged it and it was wrong. And they dismissed it. And it was also like the SEC shut down at some point. So like they were, they told me before the government shut. down, they're dismissing it. Actually, another funny thing, they were like, we're going to dismiss it, but you need to sign this piece of paper that says you won't sue us for harassment. And I just want to say that's rare. And that's because they understood how ridiculous it was to bring it. It does

not happen. That is really, really rare. And I said, fine. I'm not here to sue people for harassment. I have much more important things I want to do with my life. But they got it. But they got it. it finally eventually you just took a long time and then the government shut down so it took until like the next year in march to finally the piece of paper to move okay you know but yeah yeah i mean like one other thing about the SEC dismissal which i found interesting which he tweeted about i'm just going to quote your tweet so first you made the point this wasn't a settlement um so a dismissal and a settlement are different um a settlement i don't know if it like necessarily means that you admitted wrongdoing but it's more like unclear, I guess you could say.

It was dismissed with prejudice, and you explained that that is based on a reassessment of the evidentiary record. So why don't you explain like what those different points mean and why that's all important to you? Yeah, oh, absolutely. Yeah, I mean, so with prejudice is the most important one. Again, super rare for them to dismiss something like that.

And that just means that they can't bring back anything against D.S.O. Again, right? It means that D.S.O. is completely, you know, from the SEC's standpoint, definitely not a security. Definitely no issues like with regard to fraud or anything like that. And that's rare. Like, normally they don't like to give up the ability to go after something again in the future. And then the evidentiary record, you know, that was something that, you know, they asked me to sign this release and I read it and I was like like you know like I think you guys should be more clear about why you dismissed it and they added that like I didn't I didn't tell them what to add

but they put that in there and they're basically just saying look like the facts weren't what we thought they were you know like they looked at it again and that's how it is it's all okay so that's why yeah I just think those are important you know like and it doesn't happen every day you know so yeah and um you also uh mentioned that even the dismissal is done quote without cost or fees to you or anyone involved and you said that that was also extremely rare and that shows that there

really was no wrongdoing absolutely because normally it's a settlement normally it's it's um you know you pay them something to go away and and um and i just wasn't okay with that and and they they didn't require that after after they really understood it so Yeah. Okay. So I did also want to ask, there was something interesting, which I saw in one of your tweets. When you were cleared by DOJ, you thanked Brian Armstrong and you said, quote, so you said, quote, that you thanked him and his work with Coinbase. And said, if not for him, I'm not sure crypto would be where it is today. And I'm not sure we would have gotten such a swift dismissal of my case. I was wondering, like, what you meant by that? Like, did he intervene? Or did you just mean, like, what did you mean? What did you mean? Oh, yeah, sorry. No, I meant it generally. I mean, so the fact that this case was even brought in the first place with how little they had, I mean, you have to understand all my lawyers were like, we have never seen something like this. Something was so little that results in a charge. And that's really an artifact, I believe, and my lawyers believe, just of the like kind of anti-crypto mandate, right? And I think what I meant there is just that, you know, Brian Armstrong backed this. By the way, I've met Brian many times. We're, we're, We've chatted for like two hours about Dizo back in the day. Also, I told Kivas to invite him to the Kivas party, and he came, which was really fun. And we hung out there.

So, you know, like, I don't know him super well. But what I was referring to there is just that with the Fair Shake, he has this pack called Fair Shake. And he actually ran Congresspeople against anti-Crypto Congress people, like new Congress people against anti-Crypto Congress people. And I think that doesn't get enough recognition for like what it did. to bring rationality, frankly, to the SEC and also by extension to DOJ, just with regard to the anti-crypto stuff that they were before.

I think if he had, if those people were in place, like under the Biden administration, I'm not sure that the anti-crypto mandate would have been as strong. You know, I don't know they would have brought cases like this, frankly. It wouldn't make any sense. So that's what I meant. Yeah.

Yeah. A fair shake. All right. Well, I mean, this has been like just such a wild rye to hear the whole thing. You know, the rise, then the fall. But it's sort of like for, you know, reasons that were not, I guess, accurate. Is there anything about this story that you didn't get to tell? Because, I mean, it's very, it's very dramatic.

Also entertaining. Oh, I remember actually, there was one thing you mentioned about like how to get out of a DNA swab. That sounded interesting to me. What's that? And when was that in the story? Yeah, I'll tell you that story. And then I do have one more. There are a couple of allegations.

I just want to mention in like 30 seconds. But yeah, when they were bringing me in for the bail stuff, it was actually me and this Andrew Left guy. He's the Citron research guy, if you know, Andrew Left. He actually was getting bail on the same day. So I met him and we wrote it in the cop car together or whatever. Yeah, yeah. Yeah.

He's a short seller or something. Yeah, yeah. And yeah, so he actually, he got it real good. Like they were involved in GameStop or something. I think so. Yeah. I don't know all of it. But he came in wearing a suit because he had it really nice where they like arrested him at his house.

And then he got like bail the same day without ever going to jail. But anyway, he and I were like next to each other. And they like wanted DNA swab us. And I just said, because I didn't like it. I'm a freedom guy. I like, I'm like, this seems like maybe it's unconstitutional. I don't really know. So I just said like, hey, I declined the DNA.

a swap. And you have to understand these, like, poor FBI agents, they're like, what? You can't decline it. And I was like, I think it's within my rights to decline it. And by the way, if you're wrong, this could cause serious issues for your case. And they were like, oh, we can't, we don't know for sure that it's correct. So they bring in the warden. He's like the head of this like body processing facility. By the way, when you're going through, they call, they refer to you as a body They're like, oh, how many bodies did we get? Super demoralizing. Anyway, it doesn't matter.

But this big fat guy looks exactly like the kind of guy who would be running like a body shop like this of moving like people in chains around. He's like, you cannot decline. It is not within your rat to decline. And I'm like, sir, listen, if you want me to do it, like you can make me do it, but I decline. You know, and he gets fumes like,

and so he gets really mad and he leaves and he comes back. And he tells the FBI agents, he's like, listen, you, when he goes for his bail, you tell the judge that this man needs to be swab and tell the judge to approve it. And just so you know, people don't know, the judge in any situation like this, they're like the CEO of like the law. It's so funny. Like any exception, anything you, like they don't know. They don't know about. They call the judge.

And so that's why he was like, okay, tell the judge when he's getting his bail that he needs to be DNA swab. and they forgot. And I never got DNA swab. And what's the funniest part is I was riding after the bail hearing. I again rode home with Andrew left or like went to like the station or something with Andrew left again who was next to me. And he was like, do you ever get that DNA swab? And I was like, nope. And he was like, M. F her, you know?

Like he got swab. And he has these super like legit lawyer and he got a whole. He thinks he's so on top of the world. and this little kid, like, got out of it. So anyway, that was really funny. And then just to mention two more things, because people really care about this scandal and stuff. They mentioned that I spent like a million dollars in rent on a mansion in Beverly Hills.

I want to be very clear. That was our office. It was over like a two or three year period also. Like it wasn't like all in one shot, like one party or something. And we all live there and work there. And there are pictures. You can Google them online. The house was not like just like a like a fun like personal spend for me.

And there's one more thing. I take extremely personally, which is the SEC said, they took a quote out of context that said that I thought DISA was fake decentralized. And I really want to mention that because that's really a bad faith on the SEC's part. And it's actually the one that I was most upset about because, again, I spent all my time and energy to like make this blockchain that I really actually technically believe is decentralized. And the other funny thing about it is it's from a chat with Robin Tarun from the other channel, other thing on this channel.

From the shopping block. Rob, Rob Leshner and yeah, Tarun Chitra. Tarun Chitra. So literally our boys, because what's funny is I took the string from the complaint and I put in my telegram and I was like, oh my God, this is with Rob and Tarun. This is a chat.

And the context is Rob was pressing me and literally saying like, does BitClout really need to be decentralized? Because remember, like it's a hardcore proof of work blockchain that stores content. And like, meanwhile, by the way, like, Rob was a big fan of the token warrant structure, which is like a great structure, by the way. It's basically if you sell equity and give tokens later, but it's like, in my opinion, not as decentralized.

And so I'm literally just going to read you like Rob's question right before that complaint, which is he says, to play devil's advocate. Why does the data like posts have to live on a blockchain? I read a scale. They have a hard enough time storing content in one place with redundancy, let alone on a thousand nodes. And I responded, like, with the message in the complaint being like, yeah, like, If I'm being honest, I think fake decentralized, like, probably, like, for a lot of use cases, like, works. But literally, like, within that same message, like, it's not even a different message. It's like a long message that has a new paragraph.

I say, with that said, my view at the end of the day is that the best spot for the platform is actually when it is designed as Bitcoin with people in posts, meaning, meaningfully decentralized from day one. And the SEC, there's no excuse. It's the same message. It's not even a different, like, follow-up message. And that's actually what we launched. And then it's like in the first area, you're talking about like other people's standards. And then after that you list your standard.

Exactly right. And the best part, Laura, you don't have to trust me. Just have Robin Tarun put the text into their telegram and they'll tell you like they might even remember it. So anyway, with that, I do just want to close out with what we're working on with ESO is super important. like look it's important to understand that like the centralized platforms like meta and x like the reason I got into this okay is they can ban people's accounts and not only that they can like quietly limit the reach of things that they don't like okay like it's just so weird that we like trust them with our algorithms and then like like read whatever they tell us and I really believe so it's kind of

the only thing I'm aware of that has any shot at breaking this and the reason is all the content is fully on the blockchain and it's transparent so it's it's immediately obvious if the reach of something is being nerved or if it's being suppressed. And it's really going to create the first time where we can have a conversation about social media algorithms where everyone can actually see what's going on with the network. And honestly, it's kind of, in my opinion, one of the best applications of transparent, high performance blockchains. And so I'm really passionate about the work.

If you want to check out DeSo, Diso.com. And we also have a really cool app called Focus.XYZ where you can. It's all on Diso, but it supports subscriptions. It's the only app where you can actually get paid for content in crypto, including stable coins. All with the content actually on the blockchain. It's super cool. And it's growing. It's great.

So I'm just so happy all this is done. We're back to work and back to the mission, you know? So, yeah. Yeah. No, I can only imagine how you must feel. Oh my God. Like just listening to this tale, it's really, I think like, I think one of the the hard so okay do you know that um short story called um i think it's called the string by gogle

oh i don't know it oh okay so i'm spoiler alert everybody of just a thousand reveal what this short story is about no problem it's only like four pages or something um but basically some old man this is you know like whatever in the 1800s in like russia or whatever um he's walking around one day and he's kind of like a frugal person or something i think like just a resourceful person And he sees this string on the ground and he's like, oh, you know what, this might be useful for blah, blah, blah. So he picks it up. And then like later that day or the next day, somebody's something or other was stolen. And somebody says, oh, well, I saw the old man pick up something from the ground, da da da, da.

And he's so embarrassed that he picked up this random string that like, you know, 99% of people are not going to find. useful. And so, like, he, I forget if he, like, actually says that's what he picked up or or not. But of course, whether he did or not, people didn't believe him or if he was too embarrassed to say it. Then again, they feel like he's saying he's being shady or whatever. And he just, there's something about the short story. So, okay, I read this like literally decades ago. So I remember the whole thing. But the point is just, you know, the accusation alone is so bothersome to him because it wasn't true. But he just knows, like, if he were to say the truth, they wouldn't believe him and if he were to be too embarrassed to say it, then like they, you know, would also

not believe him. And I feel like there's like echoes of that in your story. It's like, you know, not even just like one agency, but then you had another agency was the DOJ and it's like SD&Y. And so, yeah, I, like, I'm sorry all that happened to you. No, I mean, Laura, you, I mean, I'll just say to that point, uh, the one of the best lawyers I worked with in this case said that the likelihood of winning at trial against the government is 30% in the absolute best case. And the reason it's so low is the awesome power and reputation that the government comes with when they make a claim. And I think that's why it's really important for them to be, you know, ideally as responsible as possible when they bring claims like this. And it's related

to the string, you know, like you can't put back an allegation once it's in there. You know, we just have to do our good work and put it behind us. But, Laura, Look, you asked like how I feel, how I'm feeling. How I feel is gratitude. And I felt it entire time, man, even when I was in prison, I was like, this is an experience. Like, let's meet everybody. Let's, let's like, you know, make friends. This is something that is never going to happen again.

And let's learn and take whatever we can. I'm healthy. I have a great family. I learned how many people love me, you know. And, you know, I joke. I have a government audited track record. know, how many founders can say that, you know? And look, but most of all, I am grateful that I can get back to work. I can finally build without distractions. And what a great time to build.

I mean, AI, like now AI coding. I mean, yeah, I don't care. I'm just so happy to be alive at this time and healthy and family and love. And it's great. And that's how I felt the whole time. So, yeah. I love it. It's a lucky time. Yeah. I love it. Seriously. I love, like, yeah, I have that philosophy that, the attitude, you know, what's that expression? Like, attitude makes everything. What is it?

Like, your attitude determines every, like, why can't I? Your attitude. Yeah. Okay, you guys, I'm really running on solo. I don't remember this expression, but, but it's, you know, like attitude determines everything or makes everything. Anyway, whatever. Totally.

It's what you make of it. No, I know what you're saying. And I agree, Laura, like 100%. And yeah, I'm grateful. It's no matter what happens, you know, if we have our health and our family, it feels great. And an experience like this, I mean, it gives you gratitude forever. Like, if you're feeling down, you're just looking at your experiences, you're like, oh, this is better than that, you know? Yes. And by the way, I just remembered the expression. Attitude is everything. Oh, there you go. It's simpler than I remember. Exactly, exactly. Okay.

Well, Natter, this has been so fun, and I'm excited to hear more about Diso, but we'll do that another time. And I'm glad that everything got resolved in a way that was just and in accordance with the facts. And, yeah, that you can put this chapter behind you. Absolutely. Thank you so much, Laura. And it's such a pleasure, Laura. And, like, I still love that we met in 2017, like true OG over here. I literally remember when I worked on my article about BASIS.

I was outside on the Stanford campus at the Student Union or whatever it's called. Yeah, I forget what that building is called. Anyway, all right, you guys. So, yeah, thank you so much for joining this live stream. We will catch you again next week.