Unchained - Is the Ethereum Foundation Too Out of Touch to Save ETH?

Episode Date: May 28, 2026

Vitalik finally said ETH the asset matters. Zak Cole’s reaction: ‘Should have said that five years ago.’ What broken cryptoeconomics mean for Ethereum’s future. ======================================================== Thank you to our sponsor! ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Coinbase One⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠: Get 20% off the first year of your Coinbase One annual plan at ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠coinbase.com/unchained⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠. ======================================================== The Ethereum Foundation has lost a wave of senior people in the span of a few months. A new co-executive director nobody has ever met is cutting budgets and releasing documents with a certain aesthetic. Vitalik published a post saying ETH the asset is the most high-value product of the blockchain. And David Hoffman sold his last ETH. Zak Cole, president of the Ethereum Community Foundation, and Greg Markou, co-founder of Sprinter and ChainSafe, join Laura Shin to sort through what’s a bear market tantrum, what’s a structural failure, and what would actually need to change for Ethereum to stop ceding ground to its competitors. The conversation covers the CROPS mandate, the rumored loyalty pledge, broken cryptoeconomics, and what Zak says the EF still refuses to admit. Host: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Laura Shin⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠, Host / Unchained Guests: ⁠⁠⁠⁠Zak Cole - Managing Partner, Number Group; President, Ethereum Community Foundation ⁠⁠⁠⁠Greg Markou - Co-founder and CEO, Sprinter; Co-founder, ChainSafe Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Then when he left and he departed, they replaced him with this other mysterious fellow that nobody even knows and hasn't ever met or seen. And now they're releasing a bunch of like, you know, like it was, now they're releasing a bunch of crazy deviant art-looking shit that looks like they just walked out of a ketamine orgy. You're talking about the mandate? Yes. That doesn't, it doesn't make any sense. They could just say crops. They can release some sort of blog posts. They don't need to put some stuff out that's like, looks like they paid some.

furry on Instagram to like come up with some sort of manga based manifesto that like doesn't make any sense this is what it looks like this is insane yeah

like I'll put it this way I don't think Tomash would have released this Greg Greg I know you want to keep it like not bearish we want to keep it bullish but you can't look at this and be like oh yeah dude that makes sense for financial future. This is a great place to put your money institutions. Like, we're totally in tough. Like, this is what they release to prove that they're like, that they have their fingers on the

false. Like, I would have left the organization too. Hi, everyone. Welcome to Unchained, your no hype resource for all things crypto. I'm your host, Laura Shin. Thanks for joining this live stream. Today's topic is the future of Ethereum, the Ethereum Foundation, and Eith. Here to discuss our Zach Cole, managing partner at Number Group, and president of the Ethereum Community Foundation, and Greg Markoo, co-founder and CEO of Sprinter and co-founder of ChainSafe. Welcome, Zach and Greg. Hello, thanks for having me. Thanks for having us. So the Ethereum community has been in turmoil over the last week about several departures, especially of senior people from the foundation. And there has been concern about all of that. Plus,

Then we saw that David Hoffin of Binkliss announced that he had sold his last Eath. And we're seeing Ethers trading at about $2,100. And last summer and fall it was about 5K. And then on Sunday, Vatelik announced, quote, the EF will be a smaller ship. And he doubled down on Ethereum's crops values as being its guiding light, crops standing for censorship resistance, open source, privacy, and security. And all of these developments are just the latest in kind of like an unfolding two-year crisis in Ethereum.

And, you know, it feels like the community has these concerns that Ethereum kind of like is losing ground to other chains. Those were quelled a little bit in 2025 with the appointment of Tomash Stancheck as co-execative director. But then he departed after 11 months. And so it sort of feels to the community like, Vitalik and the EF are reverting back to their old ways. And those were the ways that kind of had caused a lot of angst in the community. So, you know, before we get into the specifics of like each of the events, I was just curious to hear each of your top line thoughts on all this drama. And Zach, why don't we start with you? Yeah. So, I mean, I've been kind of banging on that drum for a while about

the EF and their performance and kind of their attitude toward the broader ecosystem. And I think they took some steps in the right direction, but it definitely does feel like a few steps back. But overall, I think the sentiment and kind of like the way that people are feeling about the EF right now is pretty much directly correlated with price. I think that if Ether at like $5,000, I don't think anybody would be complaining about what the EF is or isn't doing necessarily. So I don't want to be too harsh on the Ethereum foundation. I just, I think that a lot of it is just people's angst over price action right now, which I think is out of the hands of the EF, not to say that they shouldn't consider price and focus on that as like a, you know,

security component of the network itself. I just think that a lot of it is probably just bare market things. Huh. Okay. Greg, what about you? Yeah, I think, I mean, like generally the bare market and like the current price probably doesn't like help too much with the general sense. of things. I'd like to say, though, also that they, you know, the EF's probably been growing up

quite a bit over the last, you know, since Tomash stepped in, there was all that turmoil that was like back then when they, when they were looking at different opportunities, like even at Danny Ryan, like, as a potential option back then. I think Tomash did like a really good job, at least to like try and realign where they need to be focused. And yeah, I mean, him departing and then seeing like all these other departures there's probably it's like a mix bag uh you know a lot of these people have been there like most of them had been there like four or five six years you know and so whether this is like time for them to just take a break move on or or sue other things is something to still understand but generally speaking like yeah there's been a lot of

growing up there's been a lot of cutting of things that have you know, people have been historically complaining about for quite a long time, a lot more transparency. And I think like the latest news that's surrounded like with crops, crops, corpse, crops, I think is what it is. They should just call it corpse. Yeah. Like, I think there's probably some truth to it to a degree. But at the same time, like, you know, it does feel like there was like a bit of a shift

when Tomash left and to what we have now, but things are heading positively, which is good. But like, generally speaking, it looks like things are headed in a positive direction, nonetheless, because I think, like, even Vitalik's tweet kind of slightly changed my opinion yesterday. Oh, wait, and I'm sorry, wait, just when you say things are headed in a positive direction, what exactly are you pointing to? Like the EF growing up and realizing that, like, priorities, you know, where their priorities need to be where they have to lean on like other teams you know to to

hold ground in other areas my only yeah my only my rebuttal my like my concern about that is that I feel like we've heard this before and they tried it out with Tamash and like kind of shit the bit and now they're just like

let's just go back to what we know which is like infinite gardening and funding longevity research and like doing a bunch of retarded stuff that nobody in the world gives a shit about other than Vitalik and his little cabal. I'm just going to say it. Like the EF is completely out of touch. So I mean, now that I dunked on them a little bit, like I can also say that like at least they're acknowledging that other

organizations are going to have to step in. But then it becomes a question of whether or not they're actually going to like seed those reins to any other organization that is more competent and more in touch than they are. Because they just aren't. They're like funding hippos in Asia and all that. And like, you know, it's just, that's just stupid. Nobody cares about that. Like, it doesn't matter. Like, like, we're, like, Ethereum is no longer a startup. It's now a mature and robust ecosystem.

And, like, you know, you can't really, like, take the same liberties that we did six years ago, 10 years ago. Like, it's just completely different. There's, like, billions, trillions of dollars on the line here. And, like, people's livelihoods are dependent on that. There are people with families or, like, my entire career has been on Ethereum. If it goes to shit, I mean, what am I going to do? Yeah. Yeah.

So we're going to get into all the specifics because I feel like each of the points that I kind of, you know, used in my little summary at the beginning, we can dive into each of those. So we're going to do that in a moment. But first, we're going to take a quick word from the sponsors who make the show possible. Is my crypto working as hard as I am? Honestly, that's the question that got me into staking in the first place. I work hard for my money. It should be working hard for me. Now, you can boost your earnings this Coinbase 1 member month. Until May 31st, any newly staked assets will get a 40% boost for 60 days. That's extra passive income. Coinbase 1 is the ultimate membership to make the most of your money. As you know, this is how I make the most of my money. Zero crypto trading fees, 3.5% APY on USDC, boosted staking and lending rewards, and up to 4% Bitcoin back with the Coinbase 1 card. Plus, this massive 40%

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Bitcoinback rates are based on cardholders' assets on Coinbase. Back to my conversation with Zach and Greg. So both of you kind of hinted at this before. But to my mind, actually, the fact that so many of the recent departures from the foundation were actually senior people who'd been there quite a while and were extremely well known in the community, that actually didn't seem bullish to me. me. In fact, it seemed quite concerning, but it feels like you guys are not that concerned. Or, yeah, just talk about your reaction. Because, you know, to my mind, several of these are like true evangelists. Yeah. I don't think it's super concerning. I mean, mature organizations have churned, you know, and those guys have been around for a minute. And wait, even the fact that they all happened, you know, in the wake of Tomash leaving, like, like basically just within this

span of three months. I'm not saying it's like bullish by any means. I'm just saying that like it is a signal of a maturing ecosystem and maybe not a necessary maybe the EF isn't maturing. Maybe it's like regressing from what it did with Tamash. I don't know. Either way like the ecosystem itself is growing and if these people don't have if they're not aligned with what's going on with internally in the EF it's probably better that they just leave and start their own thing. Like I'm sure that they'll keep working in this ecosystem, or at least I hope so. So it's kind of hard to really make a prediction without, like, on the long tail, without like seeing how it plays out and like what's going on in these people's heads

because I haven't really spoken to any of them. So I don't really know exactly what's going on. I'm just kind of guessing, you know. Yeah. And just because I didn't actually name them, but I do want to, you know, some of them are Tim Beacon, Barnaby Manow, Josh Stark, Trent Van Epps, Carl Beak, Julian Mott, like these are these are well known

right, they're well known but what honestly what of those people like not to disrespect anything that they've done what have they done recently like what have those people contributed to the EF and to the broader ecosystem recently I mean like I don't know if each thing

that they were doing would have their name on it necessarily but are you saying that you don't even feel like they were that important or? I'm not saying that they're not important I just feel like that they were essentially tenured to some extent, and they're kind of just like taking on hobby projects and doing X, Y, and Z, and if they were doing large things and they're responsible for larger initiatives, then maybe that's another failure of the Ethereum Foundation for not highlighting the initiatives that they're leading. Because personally, I don't really know what the EF is doing.

I don't know what any individual employee is doing there. I don't know what the board is doing. I don't know anything. All I know is what Battalick says, and that's pretty much it. So I, I think that would just be another failure on their behalf to highlight what people are doing. Because as involved in the ecosystem as I am, I can't even say what they were doing. Aside from Trent working on

Protocol Guild, you know? And Greg, what about you? I mean, like, I wouldn't find it, is it bullish? Like, probably, like, no. But am I concerned yet? Like, yeah, I wouldn't be concerned unless we see like an exodus go to like other ecosystems.

Yeah, that's a good point. My gut check and read on most of this is like this isn't like a Max Resnick, you know, you know, two birds up like, you know, I'm done with you guys. You know, Solana and Tolly are my God. This is just, from what I've heard, like most of them are going to continue to like work. You know what I mean? Like they're going to continue to like do stuff in Ethereum. it just maybe, you know, just not end the EF.

And I think that's like healthy churn, like Zach said. It's only when an organization goes like negative like this when they all start, you know, getting picked up by other teams. And that's probably to like, yeah, at that point it's probably due to like a various amount of other reasons. Yeah, if they start a building in Solana, then we're fucked. Yeah. But they're also like, they've been around. Like they churned.

Like Peter last year. Peter Salaki from gas. Yeah, it was a natural churned. He like didn't do anything for like six to 12 months. He would like show up one or two PRs a month. You know, I'm giving them not enough credit. But like, you know, like the output like slowly dropped and dropped and dropped. And then it was just like, all right, I'm moving on.

Right. And none of these people have had as big of a blowout exit that he did. Like his was actually bad. But what about the fact that all of this is happening after Tomauch stepped down? And he only came in 11 months prior. And when he came in, that was really in response to changes that the community was demanding and kind of discontent really amongst the community. And, you know, when he started, people loved him just like the praise I would see for him

on the timeline. And he was just so open. He was very clearly kind of like talking. and listening to all the builders that he could. And so it was a real shock when he stepped down so quickly because it really felt like the community was extremely happy with him. And so, you know, it kind of indicated almost like the foundation was going to go back to not really listening to the community.

But I'm curious to hear like why you even think that happened at all. I think that they gave into the pressure from the community, but they didn't really want to cede any control at all. So they put Tamash in there, and they didn't even give him any, like, free raid. He was still co-director, whatever, with, like, co-ED with, show way. Show way.

Yeah. So, you know, like, he never actually had the chance to implement the type of change that he wanted to see within an organization that's actually real. And when he tried to push to institute those changes, he essentially, I think, what I think, think happened as he got run out because he's not conforming to the whole like infinite garden like nonsense that that we we've seen and you know and then when he left and they he departed they replaced him with this other mysterious fellow that nobody even knows and hasn't ever met or seen

and now they're releasing a bunch of like you know like it was now they're releasing a bunch of crazy devian art looking shit that looks like they just walked out of a ketamine orgy. You're talking about the mandate? Yes. That doesn't, it doesn't make any sense. They could just say crops. They can release some sort of blog posts. They don't need to put some stuff out that's like,

looks like they paid some furry on Instagram to like come up with some sort of manga-based manifesto that like doesn't make any sense. Like, you know, it's just, it's, that's crazy. That's like super bear. Like, I don't want to see that out of the organization that's responsible for the financial future of my child. Juanma, show it on the screen so people can see. Yeah, we were kind of laughing at the document. No, it should be a PDF.

It should be a PDF. And, yeah, it definitely has a certain aesthetic. Like, even the fonts seemed kind of like a funny choice to me. But, yeah. So, okay. So we're kind of like jumping ahead. But okay, let's do this. We're going to see.

Let's talk about that. So yeah, this is what it looks like. This looks insane. Yeah. Like, I'll put it this way. I don't think Comash would have released this. Greg, Greg, I know you want to keep it like not bearish. We want to keep it bullish.

But you can't look at this and be like, oh, yeah, dude, that makes sense for financial future. This is a great place to put your money. institutions. Like, we're totally in time. Like, this is what they release to prove that they're, like, that they have their fingers on the false. Like, I would have left the organization too. I would really, like, what? And then it says that they have to kill themselves. Come on, dude. Wait, wait, wait. It does. Okay. Yeah, there's the Sepaku license. That's like, maybe Ethereum Foundation fall on our swords and blah, blah, blah, if we ever fail to. to do this X, Y, and Z, and it's like, dude, come on.

If it was just like weird looking design, that's like one thing, but the copy itself is just as delusional and out of touch. Oh, you're talking about, this is on page 11. At the bottom, it's like a little, yeah, make a cartoon. Crazy. Yeah. Yeah. Well, so, okay, so neither of you know Bastion, because, okay, we're going to skip ahead to Vitolik's post on Sunday just because like something that was interesting to me was in his post he said um hold on he said something I just want to find the exact quote I think he said something like Bastion is leading this transition at the foundation that's what he said so do you think that the mandate came from Bastion or do you think it came from Vatelik or maybe it doesn't matter but I mean so the EF has a board

Vitalik is majority on that board. So regardless of whatever he says, if you look at like a corporate org chart, like Vitalik is at the top and he's in his legal right to do whatever he wants to do. So you can say that like it's decentralized or somebody else is leading or somebody else wants to do this, but that's not really how it is in practice.

Like the EF is essentially, you know, the mouthpiece for Vitalik. That's just how it is. And you can't deny that. So whatever he wants to say, like whether they like it or not, he's in charge of the Ethereum Foundation. So nothing's going to happen

without his approval. Craig, what do you think of that? Do you agree? Yeah, I mean, generally speaking, like that, from that perspective, I don't think this is like anything different than what we had like, I don't know, a decade ago

with all the drama of like, you know, super shadowy government inside the EF. Yeah, like, I mean, like it's just like more yeah yeah it's just more transparent but it's just obvious yeah like yeah like there's no way that both of them didn't sign off on it um which is i think the concerning aspect of this because like as zach delightfully pointed out it just looks like you know on one hand like it's nice to see like you know creativeness um on the other hand i think like when we're fighting for like a price you know

report, so to speak, especially at a mandate level, it's like a little bit of McKinsey won't hurt you. It'll probably help. Yeah, right. And there's a fine balance, right? This is in summer camp, dude.

Like, this is an art school. Okay, you guys, this is cracking me up. Well, so one thing is, and I can't remember if I asked you this specifically, but do you think that the recent departures have to do with Tamash also no longer being co-ed, or do you think it's just like the timing is? I think that Tamash leaving was kind of like made it obvious that, you know, know, that the people the EF don't really have the intention of actually delivering on what they're promising the community.

I think it's just kind of like, you know, hot air. that's what I think and there's no actual intention to make good on any of the you know what they're saying because if they did then we would see more than just words that we would see action you know like what what should happen

if Battalic actually wants to put his money where his mouth is what he could do and like let's say that he doesn't want to seed control of the EF and seed control of the ecosystem entirely right like he wants to maintain that power and concentrated in the app. Cool, that's great. Sure.

Just like be open about that. And then also open up the board. Why don't they appoint other board members that come from DFI, that come from different protocols, that come from an institutional background that are all public figures that have a track record that we can hold accountable, as opposed to just this random dude who's out there and we have to like put together a bunch of pieces across the internet to figure out who he is. And when we look up his name, you get this weird, like, similarly psychopathic, weird, like documents out there, like the guy's personal website. Maybe it's not him. But if it were me,

if there were a Zach Cole.com out there that was saying a bunch of crazy psychobabble bullshit, I would be like, hey, guys, there's another Zach Cole in the world that's even more unhinged than I am. Like, let me, let me just show you, like, this isn't me, right? But instead, we don't hear anything. We don't know who these people are. We have no idea who's making any sort of decisions that a that a that a that impact like you know everybody's ability to survive within this ecosystem and like directly contribute to its health or otherwise. Yeah. Greg, do you want to add anything? I mean, it's just like. I'm pretty sure too much is on like one a two year term with like one year renewal dates on it.

And I think it's like when I say. saw him leave, it was pretty clear to me that, like, it's just not working. Sure, like, you could probably claim, like, the AI psychosis, like, was, like, peak at that point in time as well. And maybe it was like, I want to do something different. But, like, if you're trying to make an impact and a change, like, you got to give it, like, two years. I mean, you know, like, big orgs like that don't move fast, generally speaking. And again, like, I'll go back to the shadow government era. It's like, like how was that accent?

It's, you know, I know there's people in the EF that know who Bastion is and like, he may be this great guy. But like when it comes to like centerfold Ethereum, it's like nobody knows who this is. He's making all these decisions to just like acts a bunch of people. And acts a bunch of stuff put out a bunch of stuff. Whether sorry, when I say acts, I don't mean like the people that departed. I mean like, you know, like they're they've cut funding for a bunch of shit. Yeah, he's making a lot of major decisions.

Yeah, he's just doing a bunch of stuff. And, like, there's, like, no background on this guy, you know? Why isn't he on Unchained? Why are Greg and I here? Like, why aren't you talking to Bastion? Like, you know, like, do you know who he is? Have you ever, do you know what he looks like? Like, what color hair does he have?

No, I tried to figure that out. See? I messaged, I found a photo of a Bastion out. on the internet and I asked the EF if that was him and they said no and I got physical descriptions from people who know what he looks like and yeah they definitely wasn't him but it's got D.B. Cooper like like this is what I kind of said in my post and the EF comms person was so mad at me but like you know he is such a contrast to Tomash right it's like Tomash was out there he was talking to people like he could meet him he you know he had a presence on the internet like on on on X

Like he just was engaging in every way in person, online. Like, you know, he kind of, he was a visible presence. He had his hands in things and he gave people confidence because they could kind of see what he was up to. Bastion, it's like no history. You know, you cannot find him online except the strange website that we can't even confirm if that's him. Then there's like the fact that even as this interim coed position that he has, he just has barely. tweeted since the announcement.

But the other thing too is like, they said he's the interim co-ED, but there's literally no information about how they're trying to find the new ED, you know, what the next steps are, like what the process is. Just like, it's just he's interim. That's it.

That's the only information. So, okay. Oh, uh-huh. Yeah, this is, I mean, like, this is just like a repeat pattern of like a lot of things. I said this on Twitter. like the other day. It's like the EF in general,

they've never talked to anybody. You know, like I know for a fact there are L2s like historically that were like pissed off. Because like they had never had a conversation about like, you know, anything when it was come to marketing when it came to like really anything.

It was offhand researchers would, but like there was never like the org itself would. I know Tamash like attempted to change that. and there's only like as of recent like people actually focus on defy like Charles Charles and I think it's Yvonne and they're like actually going out doing the work you know but it it took like 10 years to get to this point yeah yeah now deep by like he'll is like low it's like too late too little too yeah and it's just like a repeat it just feels the repeat right where like this new guy sure he might be a great person but none of us no one's been able to actually like

hear from him to see from them understand anything and he's out here cutting budgets left and right. So and spinning people out and whatever else. Yeah. It's a bit concerning, you know. So let's go back to the mandate just for a second because I did want to ask, you know, it's like at that time there were there were these rumors that, you know, said that employees had to sign a loyalty pledge to props principles.

And if not, we would be expelled from the foundation. And like, do you think that's coming from Bastion or from Vitalik? And what do you even think of the fact that maybe that was what they were trying to do? Get people to do? No, this is just a scapegoat. Like, truthfully. Like, this actually pisses me off as like somebody who like runs companies. This is like an ineffective job at being able to fire people.

over the years because they don't hold people accountable. They don't hold teams accountable. Yes, there are great PMs. They're great engineers. But how many times it's just been like a 20 mil budget to just do shit? And there's like no enforceability at the EM level. Like,

you know, I was yelling about this with Tamash. It's like there should be like engineering managers and they're held to like an actual standard. That's like it doesn't even have to be public. But like, yeah. But just run.

You know? this is like their excuse to get rid of the people that just didn't fit the culture mold and also at the same time probably just do a bunch of culling at the same time yeah it makes me feel like they want their cake they want their cake and then they want to eat it too you know it's like what they want everything but they're not uh willing to actually go the extra mile to ensure that all these things are actually implemented now they're kind of backpedaling. Oh, like, meaning they, by trying to have people sign the loyalty pledge, that was like a

sort of indirect way rather than just like having conversations with people kind of about like what the mission is and like making sure they're on board or something. Is that what you mean? Oh, what I mean? Yeah. Yeah. For sure. Okay.

Okay. And then they're using that as an excuse to get rid of folks like Greg was saying. Yeah. Okay, well, let's now talk about the next event that happened last week, which, so basically we've kind of filled in all the backstory leading up to the departures. But as the community was having this conversation about the departures, David Hoffman of Bankless announced that he had sold his last Eith, which was shocking because Bankless has famously been an Ethereum line podcast from day one.

His co-host, Ryan Sean Adams, is still a believer in Ethereum, but he's not going to be visible or as visible on the show anymore. So I was curious, like, what your reaction was to hearing that news. I don't think it's news. I mean, like, David's been kind of like doing his own thing for a few years now, as far as I'm concerned, like, primarily they're entrepreneurs, they're business people and they're going to do whatever is best for their bottom dollar at bank lists. And that doesn't necessarily include what's good for Ethereum. Like, they have a venture studio, they have to do, like, or they have a venture like a VC fund now. And they have, like, like, you know, fiduciary responsibilities.

But, I mean, David has been doing some, like, bearish shit for a couple years. It's not, like, anything new. I think that maybe him saying that he's sold his Eth now is maybe, um, kind of like a cry for attention because he's kind of pigeonholed himself as this, like, villain essentially, I think, in regard to the broader Ethereum ecosystem. And it's been about three years since that's like started three or four years. you know, but I don't, I don't think it's going to impact me.

I'm not going to sell ETH because David did. That's stupid, you know. Like people, people buy and sell all the time. I don't tweet about it. Like, I think it's just a cry for attention. Well, okay, but I mean, his whole identity was wrapped up in Ethereum. It was, but I don't, I don't, when I think of David, I don't think of an ETH maxi. And I haven't thought about him in that light for three or four years.

Like I don't, I think of him as a shark that's out there to make money. And that's fine. Yeah. If that's who he wants to be and that's who he is, that's okay. There's nothing wrong with that. Yeah, at least he's not out there trying to say that he like shilling Eath while also covertly dumping his bags, you know. Greg, what about you? I don't really care that much.

Yeah. I think it's like, I do think, though. I mean, I think it just shows a little bit of character. You know, when you have a personality that big, and as you said, you've built the brand on the back of ETH for as long as it was until as long as it has been. You know, it gets clicks. That's how I like to look at it, right?

Okay. Well, let's move on because we have so many other topics, so you don't have a strong opinion. One thing to note, though, is that like the EF and Pitalic and all them say they don't want to be kingmakers, they're directly responsible for creating David Hoffman. They gave him a spotlight. They gave him a microphone.

They brought him in. Like before that, he was just like a podcaster that did whatever, had like a few hundred followers. And then Vitalik put him on to kind of become the de facto podcast of Ethereum. Like, you know, what, five, six years ago,

something like that. Whenever there was conflict starting in Russia, he kind of like gave him the spotlight there. But I don't know what you mean by that. He like officially said that thankless is the authority. No, he didn't officially say it. He didn't officially say it. But he put them on and he supported them.

And he like gave them the microphone. That's what he that's what Vitalik did. That's what he did back in like five years ago or something like that. And before that, bankless wasn't even really, it wasn't even really a thing. He was working on P.O.B. Crypt that was like another podcast that I was on several times. And it was just a tiny podcast. So I'm just saying that, like, Vitalik giving people the mic and the spotlight is actually, like, they are kingmakers. So that's kind of contradictory to a lot of what they're trying to say now.

All right. Well, so the day after David's announcement, Don Krad Feist, who previously, you know, did research at the foundation and then last fall left to go to tempo. He tweeted a proposal that, at least like from a podcast that he and I did together last week on the Define, I'm not even sure. if he was like incredibly serious about it or like like was even seriously putting it forward it it's the way he spoke about it it felt like he was just more just putting an idea out there but he tweeted quote if we want to get a theorem back to winning one create an organization with credible funding minimum one billion dollars is a start find a leader who is competent and wants to fight make it accountable with the board of people who want eath to go up and a charter that

holds the orc accountable to it fund it permanently with a significant amount of staking revenue. So what I found interesting is that, like, so in my opinion, I think the EF can totally have crops principles as it's guiding light, but also do all the things that Deng Red mentioned and disposed. Like, I don't think that they're mutually exclusive at all. But in my opinion, the way the EF is operating, it's like they want to do the crops thing, but they don't want to fight for it. They just want to like be in their ivory tower and, you know, sort of build it and it will come kind of concept. So anyway, I was curious, like, what you thought of his proposal.

I mean, I think the big problem is, like, funding. Where, like, sure, give someone a billion dollars and they'll make he great again. Like, cool. All right. I mean, I think it also boils down to the EF, not acknowledging prices, like a significant driving factor behind the ecosystem and actually one of the foundational pillars of security within the network. When we switch to proof of stake, the value of ETH becomes the value of the network.

It's equal to the security overall of the network. So I think that's like a big problem. I think it's less like, oh, give someone else a billion dollars and more like, hey, let's like boil this down to fundamentals. Like what do we need to do? I think like we need to really focus on Ethereum as the, you know, like the asset of the network that we need to drive value to. And I think that a lot of that has been cannibalized because there have been a lot of poorly made strategic decisions, like driving a lot of things to L2s and like making a lot of protocol decisions without considering the economics of the network and the protocol itself. And just like by disregarding all of that, I think it's just done a huge disservice to ETH and, you know, the ETH holders, which should be treated as fiduciaries, essentially.

Yeah, like the EF has historically outside of like a few core teams, obviously like historically a good chunk of the folks that work there are like very strong academic researchers. Right. Like they don't. The concept of like applied research isn't something that's very like prevalent there. And when you look at the X. And explain what that means for non-technical. Yeah. Yeah.

So like, you know, on the applied research, it would be. somebody that, you know, has a little bit more, let's say, product focus. So they, they can go and say, like, okay, this is the ideal stage, but, you know, to get there, we're going to have to make some tradeoffs and, like, this is the path we're going to, like, realistically take. And they might also be on the engineering side. And kind of where I'm going with this is that, like, historically, and even, I mean, even till day, like, most of that, like, the applied side and the actual engineering side is

generally outsourced, right? Like, that's why there's consensus client teams and all the funding that happens to external parties. That's probably a lot of it and including operationally due to just like execution and leadership like internally, right,

over the years. Like the team, they are not built to hold people accountable to build and, you know, to build especially on the product side. Like even the internal teams, they run pretty autonomously. So the ones that are working well and work, like geth and a few of the other ones like that they're just they get funding right they hear what

research wants and half the time they're the ones shooting down the proposals right at the like core devs um level and so yeah i mean like i think that's an also interesting to watch as we see a lot of these folks leave but also some of the teams that get forcefully spun out with like fixed funding, you know, and potentially no renewals on it. It's in reaction as I see it to, like, they're just not good at it. It's when it seems like similarly as startup's not good at building product, but they're good at like doing X and they focus on that. Yeah, you know, it's like that's the inevitability, right? All right. So now let's talk about Vitalik's post on Sunday. We'll just talk about a part of it at first. So he, for, for

fall, I just need to say he said that this was just his views. So obviously there's other people of foundation and like other board members. But as we said, everybody knows that what Vatolic says is probably going to go. So anyway, as I mentioned earlier, he said that Bastian was executing the EF's transition, which, you know, was interesting in me just because it feels very Vatolic to me, but maybe that's why Bastian is the co-ed. And then he talked about like how Google started as don't be evil. But then he said that all large companies now are bending to what he called greed for financial gain, totalizing visions of accelerated superintelligence, infiltration by sociopaths, and craving capitulation to, or worse, active participation in government pressure for ideological

control, surveillance, and war. And then he said that the fact that this was happening influenced his vision of the EF to not be a center of Ethereum. but as one node with the defined purpose alongside other nodes. And then basically he also talked about how the EF has limited financial resources with only about 0.0, point, sorry, 0.16 of all ETH. And for that reason, it will focus those resources on pursuing longevity over breath. So, you know, the way I read that was like maybe some of these departures have to just frankly do with money. because with the ETH price down by more than half from the fall, you know, that means that their budget is also shrunk.

But then the last bit is he talked about how Ethereum must be impressive. And he defined that as provably bug-free, available chain consensus, and intermediary minimization. So we'll talk about the second half the post in a moment. But first of all, like, what did you make of all these parts? I mean, you don't exit senior leadership because budget's tight, like the folks running the ship. So, like, you know, you exit like solidity, which people complain about on a frequent basis into their own organ. That's a budgetary concern. So I would not associate budget cuts to, like, you know, Tim and all those folks leaving.

I think that's more like systematic. And those are also people who have been around. for like 10 years. Like, you know, they're, they were the, they were the folks that were around, like, when we were all getting started doing this stuff. And they were in it. Like, we all believed the same thing. And that's what motivated all of us to actually do anything.

Because I wasn't getting paid shit for a really long time. Granted, I still don't get paid shit. But like, you know, like, it was, it was tough for a while. And if you were in it, and if you got in around the same time I got in and the time Greg got in, like, we built, we worked on East two. We did a bunch of stuff. I wasn't getting paid. I was in it for the love of the game.

Like, you know, it was something that I believed in, something that I could rally behind. And I think that's what made Ethereum so awesome at the beginning. And I think now we're trying to like backpedal to try to put this crop thing front and center, which I agree with. You know, it's, and it doesn't have anything to do with the ethos necessarily.

It just has to do with how they're running things. You can't run things the same way that they were run before. But I think that they've become such. like a Titan of influence, that it's riskier to try to like take, to try to take it in a direction it needs to go because, you know, there's a lot of moving parts and now there's like a lot more at stake, you know, and they're probably just a little scared as well. So, okay. Now in the second half of the post, this to me, it's funny that to me, this like made me raise my eyebrows. He said, the most high value product of the Ethereum blockchain

financially speaking is eth the asset and it's just funny that you know when the creator of ethereum says that the most high value product of the blockchain is actually eith like the fact that that's headlines headline news to me because he generally kind of like disdains talking about price and and all that like anyway um then the other thing he said was um there are aspects of supporting Eith the asset necessary aspects even that are outside the scope of the EF. This is where we need other heroes, some of whom hold more Eith than the EF does to step in help. So I kind of read that as almost like an implicit endorsement of the Dinkrad idea. I don't know if you agree with that, but like what was your reaction to the statement about

Eith, the asset? I mean, I think it's about time. Like, yeah, hey, Eith has value and it presents a unique utility to the network. Like, duh. Like should have said that shit. Five years ago, bro, come on, get real. Like, hey, actually, now that I think about it, ETH is pretty important.

It's like literally what proof of stake is based on. Like, if the value is low, then security is low. You don't build an economic engine and then say, oh, you know what, maybe economics are important. Like, it doesn't, like, did you not think about that 10 years ago, 15 years ago? Like, you know, come on. I mean, I'm not going to like par upon the guy for saying what we've all been thinking. I'm just going to be like, this isn't news, people.

Like, let's go. Like, you know, like, we need to focus on ETH as the monetary premium of the network. That is what creates value. That's it. That's what attracts new users. That's what creates security. Most importantly is like the security of the network is entirely dependent on ETH having value. That's how it works.

That's the innovation of blockchain. That's the innovation of crypto, you know? So it just seems a little weird that he's coming out and saying that stuff now, you know? Greg it was like his Wolfel Wall Street moment you know the way but it was just

as sex said a little bit late yeah it's it's in line with what's happening though I mean like the higher Defi leads great you know still very late Defy Summer was you know

six years ago yeah yeah I've got I've gotten married and had kids raise those kids like, you know, that's where I got my first gray hair. But like, it's nice that it's happening.

It's just late. But it's also maybe he's turning a page. Maybe they're all turning a page. You know, it's there are serious competitors out there. I don't know. The way that I read that was like he's paying lip service. That's how it read to me. But so this leads me to my next topic, which I tweeted about this.

Like to my mind, I feel like ETH's crypto economics are kind of broken right now. I think like so many people think that Ethereum is super valuable. And I think that there's like a lot of people that want to fight for it and are and like all the ideals and principles that Vatelic talks about and crops and all those things. I actually think so many people are really into that. but the fact of the matter is that Vatolic and the EF, I just want to say Vatolic, but anyway, they, they haven't kind of like used, so basically, Ether could be used as an amazing tool to push those crops principles. It could be used to, you know, get many people kind of into this community and ecosystem that values those principles, which I think are actually really,

important. It's just that everyday people don't know that those principles are important. So if you kind of do the BD and you use the crypto economics to get people interested in EF, then you can kind of like Trojan horse those principles to them. But because everyday people don't give a shit about that, like by him just being like, I'm going to, you know, do these principles and like then sort of, you know, hope and pray that people get interested, like, I feel like that's not going to be as effective. So I was curious, like, do you agree that Ether's crypto-economics are broken? And a second piece is, I do feel like the foundation plays a critical role in formulating those crypto-economics. And I feel like because they're not focused on it, that's like another problem. Would you agree that the foundation is

kind of a crucial player in formulating that? Yeah, 100%. No question. Yeah. I think I, if you try to change the curve that exists there, like, I guarantee you're going to have the entire R&D team swoop in there and just be like, uh, no. Like, I'm sorry, the curve? Like the emissions curve? Yeah, of course. If you try and touch the economics,

like there's no way they don't all just jump in on it. You know what I mean? It's like you could have like a perfect, you know, by definition perfect, but there's nothing perfect. But like, I mean, I swear like on the Hossu podcast, like the one from years and years and years ago, there was like discussions about changing the curve, but that was like three, four years ago. Like we still haven't changed the curve.

Well, now there's a EIP they're proposing that's going to reduce emissions, essentially cut it in half. Which is going to be really great. Yeah, another contentious, another contentious EIP. You ready? Yeah. It's like the risk for your return on this

just isn't worth it at all. Yeah, that's sort of what David Hoffman. I was saying because I also tweeted that like Ethereum's not interested in putting points up on the scoreboard and he said that yeah that was basically why he pieced out. It should be

interested. I mean the fact that there's a scoreboard with points on it implies that you're playing on a field that cares about those things. If you're on a team that doesn't care about winning then go back to the playground. I feel like I'm on a sports podcast right now but like

so this actually leads perfectly to my next question, which is all about kind of this coming era of we're really already in this era of competition, actually. And this morning, Frank Shapiro tweeted, quote, Ethereum's dominance is slipping. ETH is down about 30% year to date. The ETHBTC ratio just hit its lowest level since mid-2020. And blockchain revenue is steadily shifting towards Solana, Tron, and Hyperliquid. The competitive landscape is changing fast. And his tweet had a chart that showed exactly that. Actually, Juanma, can you expand it out?

Like, if you click on the image. Yeah. So, like, if you look, it might be hard to see, but, like, basically, the blue where it's, you know, it's super dominant for a period, that is Ethereum. And then when you look at the, you know, the recent, I think it's like by quarters or something. Basically, it's actually quite evenly spread. And so, you know, I kind of get the feeling. that like the EF or Vitolik either is unaware that there's this massive competition going on

and there's all these players that are vying, you know, to get people on chain, or they don't care or I don't know. What's your read on kind of like whether or not they seem to recognize that the competition is only just getting started? Yeah, I think they're totally oblivious. I mean, in previous cycles, we've always seen these like Eith killers come out. You remember like Eos and all that other, all that other crap? And it was always it was always kind of like vaporware, but, you know, it was only a matter of time before somebody could come put together a car that looks cooler and is actually faster, you know.

I think that there's no competitive edge left because, you know, we've had such a winning streak of like being the shit and being cool and having the great tech and having all the good researchers and having the mind share that it kind of made everybody kind of complicit and lazy. but I think you know they still don't really have their ear to the ground everybody like you know it's still uh it's still pretty

you know I don't know I think they're definitely out of touch but that's not to say that it's too late like also I don't I'm not buying the whole like ETH is make ETH win again and blah

I still think ETH is doing well I think that we're doing better than any other network out there and the whole market is just down because, you know, AI's kind of taking over and, you know, there's like a lot of other shiny objects out there that's that are going to attract like younger more like younger talent, you know, than than crypto. Crypto was like the hot shit for a minute, but now it's more like just a standard

component in the tech stack now as opposed to like a new thing that's out. And AI is out and it's new and it's attracting a lot of talent and a lot of young people. I think that's just inevitable. I'm no longer young. I was young when I started working on this. Look at me now. Still working on it. I haven't gotten smarter, I guess.

Greg, what about you? What do you think about the EF and it's either attitude toward or awareness of the competition? I mean, I don't think they're like, I don't think you can be truly bad oblivious. But when it comes down to what's actually happening, I believe that like a good chunk. are just not paying attention to other stuff. You know, like a chain safe we like

brand and build infrastructure and nodes for like most major blockchains. And we would bring back ideas that looked great. And it was always like, I don't know anything about that chain. And that's like a common pattern.

You know, whether they know the stats is one thing, but whether they care about what's happening from like, you know, in that ecosystem specifically is like, its own battle and truthfully most of the time it's not um yeah like you'd have to be like gross negligence to not be fully aware of what's going on yeah i'm sure that they're aware but i think it's

maybe like arrogance that's yeah they think it's the care right that's what i don't need to compete we don't need to compete like you know what i mean like these eat killers come and go every cycle so in your ideal world what would happen? Like either what would they do or then would there be this kind of like outside organization? Or Zach, I don't know if you want to talk about what you're doing with the Ethereum Community Foundation, but like ideally what would happen from this point forward? Yeah.

So the ECF has always just existed to act as like a forcing function to the EF. Like we've shipped a bunch of stuff over the past year on a shoestring budget with a very minimal team, focusing on Ethereum, providing like some degree of funding. building, you know, public goods infrastructure that needs to be put out there and products that focus on consumers. So I think on a longer timeline, I think what would be ideal is Vitalik and the EF just quit the bullshit. Like the bottom line is that like if you're in court and, you know, there's a concept of jurisprudence, like, you can say that like, you know, that they, that they don't have control or whatever, one thing or another, but they're going to look at like,

They're not going to look at the statements. They're going to look at what's actually enforced in practice, right, as opposed to like, oh, well, we don't do this thing or this is decentralized and we don't have anything to do with that. But that's, that's all bullshit. So I think at the end of the day, just say, hey, look, we're controlling Ethereum. We control the network. I mean, if circle and tether, like, so if there is a contentious fork, which fork is which network is going to be, like, like the primary for, like the primary chain. It's going to be whatever the Ethereum Foundation says,

because it's going to be whatever circle and tether, wherever they choose to redeem their assets. And they don't want to incur any liability by making any sort of just like choices themselves. So what they're going to do is they're going to defer to whatever the Ethereum Foundation, which is what Vitalik says at the end of the day. That's what they're going to do. That's it. That's all that there is to it.

You can say whatever you want. You can put out a bunch of crazy mangas. You can say that you're not in charge. It doesn't matter. They're in charge. Admit that you're in charge. It's okay to be in charge. Actually, I want you to be in charge.

Please be in charge. Take some responsibility. You gave birth to this child. Put the fucking kid through school. You're like, you know, like grow the fuck up. Diversify your board. Include people from across the industry that are smarter than you that

know how to run products, that know how to build companies, that have entrepreneurial experience. That's not just sitting and writing white papers for 20 years and like dealing with all this academic masturbatory garbage. Like, don't do that. Like, think about someone other than yourself and your ego for once and give other people the reins. Like, it seemed everybody was super stoked when Tamash came in and that seemed like a step in

the right direction. But then they drove him out and they like went back to their infinite gardening. Like just make that board larger. Make it public. Make it actually transparent. We built a transparency dashboard that like tracks every single penny that we spend. If somebody buys a paper clip, it's on this, it's on this transcrancy report. we need to run Ethereum like we would a company.

That's it. That's all there is to it. Whether you like it or not, whether companies are evil or whatever, like, shut off. Just like grow up and like get a job. Like, you know, that's all there is to it. So I think that's what would happen in a perfect world is everybody saying, all right, cool. We had our fun. We did our stuff.

Like having a properly functioning organization is not contradictory to any of the crops, like notions of crops at all. because Greg and I have been running companies that bleed and die by these principles for 10 years, over 10 years. And at no point were any of those like principles put like threatened. Like never, right? So you can run an organization that's like clean and coherence and makes sense and is professional and has like a unified face that allows institutions to feel comfortable without completely selling out to bank. Like none of us got into this to be like institutional investors or accredited investor or like whatever. Like none of us, that's not why we got into this. We got into it because we were dumb and young and had nothing better to do.

No, because there were like the crops principles, you know, like that's what drove everybody. And that's what we can still conform to. But let's grow up and actually run Ethereum like we would an organization that can scale. Because if we can't do that, then the crops principles are useless because it's going to to show that none of these principles are actually applicable to real world business. And if they aren't applicable to real world business, then it doesn't, then they have no real world value. So let's make them real.

Let's like put our money where our mouth is and let's grow up and let's do it. Yeah. And whether that's the Ethereum Foundation taking responsibility for that and saying, yeah, you're right. We need to do BD for the price. We need to do BD around like marketing and like we need to make sure that people understand the messaging. Like that's, that's it.

Or whether it's another organization, they're going to have to actually. seed control and they're going to have to hand the mic to somebody else the same way that Battallic did to David Hoffman. It doesn't matter who. As long as they have their shit together and everybody understands what's necessary of the roadmap that's actually going to scale. Yeah, I agree that I think the Ethereum Foundation is not using Ether and its price as a tool in its toolkit and it could. I know you have to run at the top of the hour and it is top of the hour, but I just want to ask one last question because he mentioned the board. and Betelik did say that the Ethereum Foundation will be appointing new board members.

Do you either have suggestions on how that process should go or who should be on it or even like the type of person that should be on it? I don't think it should be like a Dow. I don't think it should be a decision that's made by everybody that holds EF. Like, you know, I'm not saying anything extreme. Treat it like a real company. Bring in people that represent different sectors of Ethereum that can contribute their knowledge and their wisdom to understanding what's actually necessary.

have a board like someone that represents standard media that understands PR. And if they don't want to do that, then they just need to shut up. Because like everything they're doing is creating PR crisis that just makes us all look bad. So either like do it or shut up. That's all you have to do. They could just shut up and play their little game and do their little thing forever in perpetuity. As long as they just step out of the way. So it's either lead, follow, or get out of the way.

and they're not really choosing to do any of those things, which is extremely frustrating. And I know that I'm going off on a tangent and I'm rambling and I see him on hinge, but I've been doing this for over 10 years. Like I've seen cycle and cycle and cycle and many people churn over. And like, you know, that's just what I think. Yeah. So, Zach, if you have to run, you can.

I do want Greg to answer those last two questions. And I ask, I can repeat them for you, Greg. And I'm a job. Thank you for having me. Thanks, Zach. It was great chatting with you. Bye. So, Greg, the two, well, I'll start with the first one,

which was just like about the Frank Chaparro chart and whether or not you think the EF has an awareness about the competition. Oh, yeah, like I was saying, like it would be fiduciary irresponsible for nobody to be not checking this. I mean, like everybody's on Twitter. Everybody sees everything.

Like they know it's, they're aware that the competition is there. I think in, many cases of being aware that there's competition and being aware of like what the technical edge and why people are making those decisions is probably not as prevalent until more recently. Like, you know, I was saying it before, like talking to people in the community and then there's talking to people in the community and then there's talking to people in the community that like also have users. And historically a lot of the time you'll find it's like, oh yeah, we spoke to these people and it's like no one's heard of them. Just like nobody's heard of them. Just like nobody's

heard of Bastion. You know what I mean? That's changing. It truly is. But like, I mean, I would be shocked if they haven't. I just don't think they care. I think a lot of people internally don't care. Right. It's like we have our moat. We have our defy. We've got our liquidity, you know, like my worry, like the fact that they don't care means that they will lose out on the competition. That's what I were. Like I, so I said this on, I think on that defiant podcast. And I don't if I tweeted it or not, but like basically I think that crops could win in the long term, but is it going to win in the short term? No, in my opinion. Because basically the way that I expressed it was like, if I think of anybody that I know, like from who I know from any context that's

not crypto, and I think about the percentage of those people that are into crypto, it's basically zero. And so, you know, all these other competitors, they are going to wear, those people are and they're like, you know, meeting them where they're at right now. And Ethereum is not doing that. It's kind of like staying in this sort of cypherpunk, you know, kind of stance. And it's just like, oh, no, no, no. But yeah, like, you know, whatever, 98% of people are not into this. And so all the other chains and platforms, they're going after the everyday person. And so if Ethereum loses in the short term, then will it win in the long term? Like, possibly. But if it loses in the short term, then it runs the risk of also not winning in the long term. And that's what I'm concerned about.

Yeah, you have to like play to like, you have to like increase your like total luck surface. You know, like that it's you're not going to like, you know, there's getting winning takes like a bunch of factors and a ton of it is luck. It's like, and you need to increase. And you need to increase. that surface as much as you can. You know, crudely, like, how Zach put it, it's like, that document's just garbage. Like, I would be happy with a cleaned up version, and that would probably appeal to a lot more people more widely, you know, but you read that. It's hard to get through.

And I think it's just like a lack of awareness that, like, pushes sometimes these decisions that, you know, would cause Ethereum to lose. I don't think it will, truthfully. We've just got so much going for it. But, you know, the price of it's a whole different problem, right? Yeah, I feel like if they fix the tokenomics and if they like deign to fight for Ethereum, not just like, you know, in this airy, fairy way put these principles out there. If they decide we're going to fight for these principles, then yeah, I think like Ethereum

probably would win. but in the absence of those things, I'm a little bit like, okay, well, we'll see if the principals just magically attract people on their own. Okay, so that last question that I asked Zach about, you know, the fact that they are actually adding people to the EF board. Like, how would you, you know, want to see that happen? You know, what process or like what types of people or if you want to name specific people they like to see on the board? Like, what are you thinking? I mean like systematically it has to we need like grownups in the room you know I I you look at I mean again I can't find Bastion's info but like you look at the rest of like the team there and like a lot of people don't have like big corporate management things not that that's what they need but you need to have somebody that like actually understands like businesses at scale to come in and say like okay. There's like some things we have to change.

We can adhere to the rules of corpse as much as we can. But like, you know, these basic principles of how we should run, you know, a 13, they have 13 bips of like the total supply. Like that's a crazy amount still, even though it's like not a lot. Like it's still a lot of funds. Like they have to steward that. That's like priority number one. Priority number two is I would love to honestly for them to just like continue to cut more stuff

out and lean on other organizations to do it. Like they already do. Right? like keep it lean keep it focus on research that's like what we need the most we've got other teams that are extremely talented at different budget sizes that are independent that can really execute on a lot of this stuff versus like the traditional model which is you know you have team leads allocated budgets that are large and they kind of just throw it around and that's getting called back now anyway and finally when it comes to the board like i don't i really hope we don't have just like an internal family business style that we have.

You know, it's just promote internally and just continue to promote internally. It's like there's no observability at that point. There's no like keeping them accountable. Like we should be seeing someone external come in. Somebody that has like put their like neck on the line for the last like X amount of years. I don't know who that is necessarily. And you have to be careful not to king make in this process. you know, but I would probably add like two or three beachheads from different, you know, areas,

maybe like one or two from Defi, or even board observer seats. I don't know if those exist in Swiss Foundation orgs, but, you know, same concept. It's like I would take, like, I would take on like a cane and like a like a, like a Stani, you know, like kind of polar opposites and similar at the same time. Yeah, like people that have been around and basically like prop up the network. You know, like truthfully, like if Stani didn't like put together this like, recovery fund like I think it actually would have been like we would be in like super bear for the next like two years right it's like those type of people would be good and then maybe honestly take on

somebody completely like different adjacent right um but just has a good track record in like open source like I'm sure there's somebody at you know sfti 500 that like has ran massive orgs and can suggest this is the way to go but like you know pick and choose your battles Yeah, yeah. In my book, there was this moment where they tried to recruit Brian Bellendor from Hyper Ledger. But for various political reasons at that time, that was not really a viable option having to do with the current or the then executive director of the EF. Who is that? Oh, no, I.

Not Albert. No, it was Ming. Yeah. Oh, my goodness. Throwback. Wow. Yeah. Anyway.

I forgot that. That was a time. Yeah, see, that's my point. It's like there's too much family business happening right now. And it's like, let's bring some people in from the rest of the world that have like been bleeding, you know, this whole initiative, this whole time. Yeah. Yeah. I basically feel like more transparency from the EF and more communication.

those two things alone would go a long way, I think, for the community. So anyway, well, Greg, it was so great chatting with you and having Zach. And yeah, I know this conversation will be ongoing. It's sort of like been ongoing for a couple years now and hasn't really died. So yeah, we'll have to see how all this plays out and really. like the changes that they're making at the EF, like what those changes really look like, because clearly the reaction hasn't been positive.

So I wonder if they'll take the feedback, but maybe they won't. We'll see. We'll find out. I'm sure we'll get a tweet soon enough. All right, everyone. Thank you. Yeah, thanks for joining.

And thanks everyone for joining this live stream. We'll catch you tomorrow. Now, thank you here on Unchained is Investment Advice. This show is for informational and entertainment purposes only, and my guest and I may hold assets discussed on the show. For war disclosures, visit Unchangedcrypto.com.