Unchained - Listener Mail: Laura Answers Your Questions on the Markets, Velocity, Privacy and More! - Ep.88

Starting point is 00:00:02 Hi, everyone. Welcome to Unchained, your no-hype resource for all things crypto. I'm your host, Laura Shin. If you've been enjoying Unchained, pop into iTunes to give us a top rating or review. That helps other listeners find the show. And thank you to all the listeners who have given us ratings and reviews so far. Want to connect up to the Bitcoin network but are confused by the multitude of choices and intimidated by the complexity of getting started? Come to Blockdaman.com slash Unchained and launch a big internet network. Bitcoin node in mere moments, we'll do all the heavy lifting for you. The future of lending is here. Altlending enables companies to leverage their Bitcoin or Ethereum assets to borrow US dollars. To learn more, go to Altlending.com and use promo code unchained for offer details for an interest-free month. Crypto-collateralized altlending.com.

Starting point is 00:00:52 Last week was an eventful week for me. I gave a TEDx talk in San Francisco. And I will say, not feeling the need to be. humble about it, I think it went well. And I'm really proud of that because I am typically not being asked to speak. I get on stage and I ask questions. And a lot of people said to me before the talk, oh, you must be so used to this. And no, I was not. I was super, super nervous before I started. And I had practiced a lot, but based on some feedback, I'd also made some last minute changes. that meant that even the morning of I was forgetting pieces of my talk because I literally just

Starting point is 00:01:35 changed them in the 36 hours before. So in the end, it all worked out. I just practiced the parts that were giving me trouble in the hour before and did finally get it all down. So thank you to Tedx San Francisco. And I will be sure to tweet out a link and maybe even tell you guys about it on the podcast when the video comes out. The other thing I did last week, week was I started the interviews from my book. In case you missed the news, I got a book deal to write about events in crypto in recent history. And so I started on a number of interviews, and it's going well, and it's really exciting and fun. You know, for those of you who remember back when my main thing was writing, writing always was and always will be my first love. And so it was just so fun to be

Starting point is 00:02:28 in reporting mode and to be imagining what I might make of the material. And then the last eventful thing that happened was I got involved in a Twitter debate between Noreal Rubini and Vitolik Bouteran, not actually in the debate itself, but I saw that Noreal, and for those of you who don't know he is, he's an NYU economist. And he had been featured in the Senate testimony on cryptocurrency on Thursday, along with Peter Van Valkenberg of Coin Center, who is a previous guest. on the show from a couple of years ago. And actually, Suna Amaz of Token Dillon, I discussed the hearing ever so briefly on Unconfirmed last Friday. And Professor Rubini came out pretty strongly against crypto for various reasons. And what I was telling Suna was that what I think is really fascinating

Starting point is 00:03:19 is that when I listen to him, much of what he says actually is factual. Sometimes he does get facts wrong, but by and large, he appears to understand crypto, which is not always the case with other people from the traditional financial services world who talk about crypto. However, he takes the same facts and then concludes that the technology will never advance beyond where it is now, which I think just is a strange conclusion to make. I was telling Suna that I feel like the whole story of human history is that we invent technologies and then improve them. This is not to say that crypto will work out if it fails, which it very well could. I don't give that a super high percentage, but I definitely know it is a distinct possibility.

Starting point is 00:04:10 Obviously, then I guess he will have been right. However, I find it really interesting that he's entirely convinced that that is what will happen. I feel like it's way too early to know for certain. But anyway, so I saw that he tweeted that he would gladly debate Vitalik Boutterin in any public forum. And I, you know, because Unchained, as I'm pretty sure the most popular crypto podcast, I thought, oh, you know, I have the natural platform for this. And I emailed him and tweeted at both of them about this. And Noriel wrote me what is quite possibly one of the meanest emails I've ever gone in my life, where he called me a shill hack and PR person for the crypto industry. He tweeted about me as well. It was a less hateful tweet. Someone asked me,

Starting point is 00:04:59 oh, are you okay? I feel totally fine. Honestly, my main reaction upon receiving it was that I just felt stupid. I hadn't predicted he would react that way because I realized in hindsight I should have been able to foresee that. But I think the last comment I want to make about this is that in some other forums, someone sent me his appearance at the Milken Institute. last spring, I believe it was, or maybe early summer. And it made waves at that time, but I actually never watched the video at that time. And I did watch it again, or I did watch it this weekend. And again, like I said earlier, much of what he says is true. You know, he talks about how mining in crypto is pretty centralized. He criticizes it for like low throughput, which is what a big part of his

Starting point is 00:05:51 testimony was about certain things like that. So he appears to have studied up on this. And so in that sense, I actually think a lot of people in crypto can learn things from what he's saying. And frankly, I think a lot of his criticisms are not that different from the criticism. I hear from actual believers in crypto who are also critics of the space. So I have. So I have. have had a couple of skeptics episodes. I've called them. There was one with Preston Byrne and Angela Walsh. That was in the spring. I'll link to it in the show notes. And the other one was with Melton Dumeras and Jill Carlson. And that was from the summer. I will also link to that. So I think certainly there are a lot of valid points he makes. I did notice on Twitter he also has been tweeting misleading

Starting point is 00:06:38 facts and or are they're not facts, but you know, just things that are not true. But by and large, a lot of what he says actually is true. And I think there's a lot to learn from it. So without further ado, I will just say that for this listener mail episode, I am doing this basically with everything going on, the book and the TEDx and everything, I really just did not have time this one week to do a traditional episode. But I will try to answer as many questions as possible today. Thank you to all of you who did submit questions. And I apologize in advance because I already know I can't get to all of them. A few other notes before we start, which is that nothing I say in this episode is investment advice, legal advice, or any other kind of advice. As always,

Starting point is 00:07:30 hopefully you know from my work and from both my podcasts and my articles that you should always do your own research. And, you know, I can have guests on here and they may say misleading. things. And if I don't happen to catch it in the moment, then, you know, it behooves you to not rely on things that are said or rely solely on things that are said in the Unchained or Unconfirmed Podcasts. Yeah, other than that, I will go to the first question, which is from no name. This person says, can you just close your longs and shorts? So for those of you closely watch me, you may know that when I worked at Forbes, I owned a bit of Bitcoin and Ether. And when I quit in Forbes has a policy that if you cover something that you own, you disclose it.

Starting point is 00:08:23 I had a feeling when I quit that I would not be able to hold on to the Bitcoins and ethers for very long. And indeed, I wrote a few freelance pieces for The New York Times. As a condition of writing them, I did agree to sell or give away my, the coins that I did own. So now I'm a no-coiner. I do hold a very tiny bit of Bitcoin Ether and some of the coins on the Circle app because I was testing that for when I did the Circle interview. I can't remember if I, I feel like I tested something else recently where I did buy something, but I'm blanking on what that was. But anyway, so, you know, the amount that I own is like probably, I don't know, it's like $200 worth or something. It's just for me as a reporter to still,

Starting point is 00:09:13 you know, make sure that I understand what's going on and how to use this technology. I love using it. It's probably I still get a thrill out of using it. Okay, next question is from Rebecca Jones. How are we to achieve broad adoption of Bitcoin? What level of understanding and education is needed on a global scale? This is a theme that's come up a few times in recent episodes, particularly in some panel discussions, but also actually in some of the interviews I've done. I think, and frankly, I'm actually seeing this also in some of the medium posts and other blog posts and tweets and whatever that are going around online. I think a lot of people are thinking about usability. And I think that really is one of the biggest hurdles right now. And I think that will be unlocking

Starting point is 00:10:02 that will be a huge step toward gaining broader adoption. And this goes back to what I was saying about how Noriel had some really good points because he was, I think this was in the Milken thing. He was talking about how when you use a bank, you can trust that they will keep your money safe for you. And that's their job. And they're better at it than you would be if you had to keep it in your house or on your person. And I think by and large, we're seeing that in this early stage of crypto where so many people have lost their private keys. They've thrown them out. they've had them fished, their private keys fished from them. They've had them stolen via the phone hijacking scams where the hacker will call a telecom and say, and pretend to be you, and say, oh, I want to, you know, switch my phone from Sprint to T-Mobile. And so then once all your phone calls and text messages are going to their phone, then they will change all your passwords and maybe go into your Coinbase or your other crypto accounts and move the crypto out to their wallet. And then, you know, there's no bank of Bitcoin that you can call to reverse that

Starting point is 00:11:20 transaction. So you are just out of that money. So there's been, you know, so many instances where we've seen that these basic usability issues are one reason that people are. losing their coins or they don't understand it or you know you even had during the ICU phase all these people trying to buy into icos from a coin base account not understanding that then they wouldn't receive the tokens so i think there's just a lot of like i said basic usability and understanding amongst the general population that needs to happen in order for you know mass adoption to occur the other thing is that for those of me who didn't see it there was a really great post on the USB blog where they talked about how everyone is saying that right now

Starting point is 00:12:08 we need to invest in the infrastructure layer and that that is what is going to kind of build out all the infrastructure and then the apps will come later. However, they pointed to numerous examples throughout history where the app came first and then the infrastructure was built to support that app. So one of the first examples they gave was the light bulb and they talked about how the light bulb came first before the electric grid. And another example they gave was airplanes and about how that came before this network of airports and air traffic control and all these things. So I think that we're already maybe starting to see some of this interplay between apps

Starting point is 00:12:52 and infrastructure. And it's a really great blog post because they have all these graphs on how it's sort of ping pongs back and forth. Like you get this one breakout app, it causes this certain infrastructure to be built. And then that infrastructure enables this kind of next level app, which then spurs the next level of infrastructure and so on and so forth. And so perhaps an early, so probably the very first example of this here, of course, is Bitcoin the currency is the app. And, well, okay, so Bitcoin the currency and Bitcoin the network sort of grew at the same. time, although I guess you could say like, you know, the growth in the network really happened

Starting point is 00:13:35 because people were interested in the app of the digital currency. And maybe another kind of app that obviously took a well, there are a couple. One is maybe ICOs where there was a lot of demand to try to do these investments. And we saw we've seen, we're seeing now that, you know, my ether wallet and my crypto are kind of trying out new ways of managing or new features for those systems that could help people trying to do those things. There's also Cryptokitties, which came out, which was a popular app. And for those of you who listened to the CryptoKitties episode, we talked about a lot of the difficulty that people had buying the CryptoKitties. And when I asked the CEO, how much bigger he thinks CryptoKitties could be,

Starting point is 00:14:28 if it weren't for all the difficulty people had with like, you know, buying on Coinbase and then using their Medamask and da-da-da-da, he was like, oh, a hundred times bigger. So like he was saying that when they watch people go through the flows, like 99% of people just couldn't even get all the way there. So the last example of this that I can think of is one that I'm watching right now, which is there's this journals and platform called Civil, which is trying to, it's a, sorry, it's a blockchain journalism platform. And they're doing an ICO. And what's interesting is they worked with token foundry, which I don't know for those of you who maybe didn't, haven't followed what token foundry is doing. But what's interesting to me is they've come up with these guidelines about how to structure token sales. And they're really trying to make it seem less like an investment and more like a product, which I think is super fascinating. And they really, you know, write these guidelines in a way where they want you to have an understanding of what you're buying. However, I think, you know, that really has its intended effect, which is to deter the speculators. And so what's interesting is that Civil had a minimum that it was targeting, which was $8 million. And they last I heard were not quite at $2 million. So and the sale closes this week.

Starting point is 00:15:49 So they may not even hit their minimum target, which, you know, I'm not sure what they'll do at that point. If they'll refund everybody's money or what. but that just goes to show that, you know, it really is difficult to participate. And, you know, during the ICU craze, because everybody wanted to get rich, there was a huge amount of motivation for people. But even despite that, it probably could have been a lot bigger if it weren't for these hurdles. So there's a lot more education that needs to happen. There needs to be a lot more ease of use, I think. That's another huge issue. And, you know, in terms of how all that occurs, I really think it's just, like going to be a lot of different efforts in a lot of different directions across the industry.

Starting point is 00:16:32 The next question comes from Russell Lloyd. What's one thing in the crypto space you've changed your mind about since you first started covering it? And there's a related question from Katia. How did your personal perception of the space evolve since the first day you learned about blockchain and or Bitcoin? Every person goes through different stages while diving into this rapid hole. I'm wondering what your journey looks like and most importantly where you are today compared to yourself say in 2017 and 2016. Well, the easiest answer to this question is that I started reporting on this in 2015 when the mantra in the space was blockchain, not Bitcoin. And I actually wrote the first large magazine story magazine feature with a cover line on blockchain being

Starting point is 00:17:16 used in financial services. It was quite possibly the longest email, the longest email, the longest article that Forbes magazine has ever run. That's what my editors who had been there for 30 years were saying. I mean, they didn't definitively prove it, but they thought it might be. And the article featured chain the company and talked about how essentially you could use this technology to improve the back ends of a lot of existing financial services and that those companies could then also now offer new products that they were not able to offer before with existing technology. And the funny thing is that at that time also, so the way I got into this was that I reported the Forbes Vintech 50 list with another reporter. She and I divided it into categories and I took digital

Starting point is 00:18:09 currencies. And so I was vetting all the companies for that category. And when I interviewed Coinbase, they were the kind of one holdout. And I, I was, you know, I was, you know, I was asking them, oh, well, you know, how were you going to get adoption of Bitcoin? And they were like, well, you know, it's cheaper than using a credit card. Credit card is like 3%. And this is much less. So retailers could offer discounts of 1% for using Bitcoin. I was just like, this is so not convincing.

Starting point is 00:18:42 And I didn't put them on the list. And which is funny because Coinbase is truly the winner to. I think we could all safely say. So anyway, clearly I was wrong about that. Although to my, in my defense, this was just when I was learning about this. Like literally I was learning about it in that moment. So I think the other couple things or well, the other main thing maybe that I might mention about where I am in my journey or what I've changed my mind about is something that kind of interests me is I find myself going back and forth on ICOs a lot. And what I mean by that is that obviously there has been a lot of talk about the inequalities that we see in our system.

Starting point is 00:19:35 And, you know, I mean, I have lived in places like New York and the Bay Area, which I talk about, you know, being confronted with wealth inequality on a daily basis. They're kind of like the prime environments where you will see both ends of the spectrum every day. So in some respect, I kind of like the fact that ICOs are sort of democratizing. However, I covered personal finance for many years. And I also view ICOs as a way for people to easily scam other people and for unwitting investors to lose a lot of money. And so in that regard, I really do think that there is a reason for all these regulatory protections and that there is a reason that all of this regulation has been built over the decades. Yet at the same time, I do recognize that it does in a way

Starting point is 00:20:28 perpetuate these inequalities, especially with something as blunt as the accredited investor rule, which essentially, you know, for those of you don't know what that is, it says that you have to be to invest in certain investments. You need to be the, you need to be. an accredited investor, which means that your income needs to be, oh, shoot, I'm just forgetting if it's 200,000 and 250,000 annually, or, and then also, or you can have a net worth of more than a million dollars. And I was just talking about this with Barry Silver, after we wrapped the recent episode I did with him. And, you know, he was saying that he's always thought the accredited investor rule wasn't, wasn't very well built, which I definitely understand.

Starting point is 00:21:16 understand. And I've heard multiple people talk about it being sort of similar actually to the token foundry situation where it should be sort of knowledge based, which makes more sense to me. And that could perhaps be a really good solution because that would then, you know, enable it to be more democratizing without while retaining sort of that protectionist attitude, which I do think does serve a purpose. So anyway, yeah, I think. And of course, there's a, another reason why I'm less bullish on ICUs, which is, of course, that there's been so many scams and just really unsavory things going on with all that. So hopefully that will die down as we're starting to see the speculative mania pass a little bit.

Starting point is 00:22:00 The next question is from blockchain or at CryptoCreper with two R's or I guess four R's total on Twitter. I love your podcast and listen to them all. Just wondering, has your view of Ethereum changed in the last three months? So I actually don't know why he or she is asking about the last three months. I don't know if my view on it has changed per se. I think I maybe have more of an understanding of its pitfalls or what it cannot do simply because we are, of course, seeing these new smart contract platforms that are coming out to compete with it. And so when those projects talk with me about what they're building very many

Starting point is 00:22:46 of them will reference Ethereum and say, like, essentially, oh, you know, we're solving for this problem on Ethereum. So in that regard, maybe I just have a more nuanced picture of kind of the pros and cons. However, by the same token, I would also say that I continue to be amazed by how many projects are building on Ethereum. For those of you who are regular listeners, you've probably noticed I'm doing this sort of like decentralized finance series. I had zero X. on Dharma, D-Y-D-X. I'm trying to think of what are the other ones.

Starting point is 00:23:24 But, you know, all these projects are building on Ethereum. The most popular stable coin, MakerDAO, well, actually, sorry, that's the most popular one. But the one with the most hype, probably at the moment, because the most popular one is Tether,

Starting point is 00:23:36 which has super, super shady history, or at least will not give, will not consent to a full audit. So there's a lot of questions around Tether. But I see a lot of buzz around many of the projects that are building on Ethereum. And so in my TEDx talk, I talked about the parallel world of finance that I think is being built. And frankly, a lot of those projects actually are building on Ethereum, although I do know that many of them would probably switch if something better came along. So in that regard, I'm not certain that this will be, you know, that this first,

Starting point is 00:24:16 mover advantage will really amount to anything in the long run. I think there's a long way to go. There's a lot of, I mean, it's just such early days in the space. So, okay, next question. Jonathan Chow. 2017 Bull Run gave rise to ICOs. How do you think 2018, 2019 Bull Run will manifest? Again, what I'm saying here is not investment advice. I cannot in any way, shape or form predict the future. However, I can't tell you a little bit more about what I was chatting about with Barry Silver after we finished recording. He said something like, so I don't remember exactly what he said, but he essentially implied that he thought we were going to see prices go up again in 2019. And I was frankly surprised at, well, okay, so maybe he didn't, he must not have phrased it that way. He must have phrased it in some other way where I essentially

Starting point is 00:25:13 took, took his point to be that. the whole space would sort of like legitimately grow into its valuation. Because when he said that, I said, oh, you know, I actually feel like a lot of the technological hurdles that need to be built are going to take a bit longer than that, that these problems are, you know, ones that will probably take, I don't know, more than a year really to solve. And he said, oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. What I mean is that I think we're going to see Wall Street money, institutional money come in in a bigger way. And then I said, oh, okay, so maybe we're going to enter in that same kind of situation we were in at the end of 2017 where the valuations got ahead of the technology. And some indications that we have about institutional money coming in have come out in the news recently where, for those of you who might have seen the information, which is a great little boutique.

Starting point is 00:26:14 publication, they focus exclusively on tech and have recently launched a crypto vertical. They reported that several university endowments, I should have looked this up, but I'm pretty sure it was like Yale, Harvard, and Stanford had all invested in crypto in some way, shape, or form recently. And so, you know, that's the kind of vetting that those institutions do, that those endowments do. I think, you know, says something about kind of where the space is at. And obviously we have backed coming online in November. I'm not sure what effect that we'll have, though, because for those of you who listened to my episode, Toward a Meester, he was saying that he thought that that would lead to the prices rising. I said, oh, well, you know, everyone said that about the futures, but obviously that isn't what happened. So how will this be different? He didn't really have a good answer. So this, if any Wall Street people listen to my podcast and can explain to me, how that could have a different effect on the market than the futures, then I would be interested to talking to you because I frankly, I don't understand Wall Street super well. And I really am

Starting point is 00:27:23 interested to know, will this be another situation where the hype, you know, did not manifest? Or really, will it really be different? And if so, why? Like, what is the mechanism by which we will actually see this have a positive effect on crypto prices? I don't know the answer to that. And I'm very curious to know. So, yeah. So Barry, you know, at least. thinks that we will see Wall Street money coming. Oh, and actually to just add a little bit more there about Wall Street money coming in, a couple of reasons for that are probably going to be that we're already starting to see better custody solutions. Bicco has its custody solution and they're what's called a qualified custodian. Mike Belchie discussed that on the podcast earlier

Starting point is 00:28:08 this year. I can also link to that in the show notes. And a Coinbase custody, I believe, is also a qualified custodian. There are a few others. I'm just blanking. Honestly, the TEDx situation fried my brain. So I know this stuff is happening. And I'm sorry that I don't have the details for all of you. But because we know these products are coming online, that probably is going to give institutions more comfort with the crypto space. And so in that regard, we could see more of them. Oh, and the last thing I will say is that I was talking with another source who said that the type of institutional player that they're talking with is different from previous institutional money, which might have been like smaller before where it was like single family offices. And now it's more

Starting point is 00:28:53 like multifamily offices or as, you know, I just mentioned endowments in this case. So who knows? I don't know what will happen, but those are some of the theories floating around. Next question, David Erickson. How do you think Bitcoin will behave in a serious recession slash financial crisis? I mean, at some point, years or maybe years from now, we will see another recession slash crisis. I'd imagine, ha ha. Yes, I agree with you on that point. So how will Bitcoin behave in a serious recession or financial crisis? Well, this is one of those questions where in the absence of any other factor, it's basically impossible to predict. Because, you know, is this going to happen like a year from now or is it going to happen

Starting point is 00:29:37 five years or now? Is it going to happen 10 years from now? You know, depending on, on your time frame, it could happen at a time when we're in a similar phase infrastructure-wise where there's a lot of basic usability issues around Bitcoin that would prevent it from becoming a safe haven in a financial crisis. However, even if it were you from now, maybe in some limited fashion we might see some people turn to it because obviously there are at least pretty decent consumer facing on ramps like Coinbase, frankly. It's just really the easiest place where you can just go straight with your bank account and buy a little bit of Bitcoin, Ether, and a few of the other cryptos. So who knows? I mean, if it were more like five or ten years from now, then perhaps at

Starting point is 00:30:30 that time when the usability issues are more resolved, it could become even more popular. But then it's a question of, well, by that point, the space will have matured so much that will there be another crypto asset that will be a kind of more of a safe haven than Bitcoin? You know, I don't know. There's just really no way to know. I think the only things we can point to are that certainly in places where money doesn't work well, we have seen in limited fashion that some of those people, some of the people in those economies do turn to Bitcoin or other crypto assets. And so perhaps at that time, we might see the same thing. Next question from Chris Belmont. What is one surprising thing you recently learned? So I literally, I could barely think of anything. But I was really interested

Starting point is 00:31:23 by this study that Chain Ellis just released and Fortune did an article on that came out last week that showed that whales account for 4.6% of all Bitcoins and that they busted the myth that the whales are kind of like negatively affecting the price and they said that they actually largely help stabilize the market as somebody who doesn't feel like you know I super understand how these financial systems work or how financial markets work that was something that I found interesting so I figured I would just point to that okay we're going to take a break to discuss the velocity problem and other issues but first I'd like to take a quick break for our fabulous sponsors a startup the company

Starting point is 00:32:06 completed an ICO and looking to leverage Ethereum for working capital. A miner looking to buy more rigs without having to sell Bitcoin. Altlending can help. Altlending enables companies to leverage their Bitcoin or Ethereum to borrow US dollars while retaining ownership of their crypto assets. We bring years of financial and technological expertise to the blockchain space. Access to institutional capital means borrowers don't have to wait weeks to receive a loan. Our simple and efficient vetting process makes getting a loan easy.

Starting point is 00:32:36 Membership tokens or complicated signups required. To learn more, go to altlending.com and use promo code unchained for offer details for an interest-free month. Asset lending, reimagined. Altlending.com Want to make it as easy as possible for a developer community to connect to your main net? BlockDamon offers a blockchain networking tool that spins up nodes around the globe in seconds via its simple email invite system and GitHub integration, leading protocols like Aeon and Stellar trust BlockDamon for their DevOps and decentralization services.

Starting point is 00:33:11 BlockDamon is offering all blockchain projects a global decentralized network management tool connected to multiple infrastructure providers. Go to blockdaman.com slash unchained and start a free 30-day trial today. I'm taking listener questions for today's episode. The next question is from Joshua Viser. You seem to be skeptical of some claims by your guests. Are you willing to be more explicit about which parts of the industry you think will blossom and which you think are complete hype or scams. The scorebed app here with trusted stats and real-time sports news. Yeah, hey, who should I take in the Boston game?

Starting point is 00:33:50 Well, statistically speaking. Nah, no more statistically speaking. I want hot takes. I want knee-jerk reactions. That's not really what I do. Is that because you don't have any knees? Or... The score bet.

Starting point is 00:34:02 Trusted sports content, seamless sports betting. Download today. 19 plus, Ontario only. If you have questions or concerns about your gambling or the gambling of someone close to you, please go to conicsonterio.ca. Local news is in decline across Canada, and this is bad news for all of us. With less local news, noise, rumors, and misinformation fill the void. And it gets harder to separate truth from fiction.

Starting point is 00:34:26 That's why CBC News is putting more journalists in more places across Canada, reporting on the ground from where you live, telling the stories that matter to all of us. because local news is big news. Choose news, not noise. CBC News. Again, I'm not giving investment advice to your own research. Some of the areas that I think could possibly blossom, I will just probably be obvious to anybody who listens to my show.

Starting point is 00:34:55 But certainly the first is just, I think we're going to see a money come out of crypto. We're already starting to see that in a limited. way. But Bitcoin, you know, as I mentioned earlier, was really kind of the first app. And it really was the first thing that helped people understand the potential in this technology. So in that regard, I would be surprised if out of this technology, we did not end up with something that was money-like. And already there are a lot of contenders for this mantle. In addition to Bitcoin, there's Bitcoin cash, there's Lykoin, there's Dash, there's Zcash, there's Monaro. So I think we will certainly see some

Starting point is 00:35:42 kind of money that comes out of this, you know, whether or not that ends up competing in any significant way with fiat currency, I have no idea. And because we are likely to see digital fiat currencies at some point, I really don't know also how that will affect these cryptocurrencies, how popular they can get. There's just way too many factors to try to make any prediction there. But I would be surprised if we don't see some form of money, whether it's in a limited fashion or a wider fashion that does take off using this technology. Another area that I think is probably going to Thrive is going to be privacy. And when I say that, I mean in particular privacy coins. And that is for a few reasons. So as we've seen with technologies over and over again, frankly, many of them take off

Starting point is 00:36:44 because criminals find utility in them. And that actually, you know, to go back to my little description of the app and infrastructure, I guess, you know, play between them, the interplay between them. Like one of the apps, frankly, was probably Silk Road for Bitcoin. So in that regard, a lot of those criminals found out the hard way that when you have a transparent money, then your crimes will be more easily traced back to you. So if you listen to the very first episode I did with Katie Hahn, who used to be a federal prosecutor. She's now one of the general partners at Andrews-Nohorowitz, and she leads the A16C crypto fund with Chris Dixon, who was on the podcast this summer. You guys should check out that interview. But in her initial interview with me when she was

Starting point is 00:37:39 a prosecutor, she talked about how she was able to solve a few crimes using the Bitcoin blockchain, where they realized that there were two federal agents that were stealing the Bitcoins from the Silk Road investigation. So, um, and, um, I think certainly criminals are figuring out that maybe having a privacy coin is a good idea. However, those aren't the only people that are going to find such a thing useful. Zcash is a privacy coin that its technology is now being incorporated as far as I understand into J.P. Morgan Chase's blockchain quorum. And that's because financial institutions also don't want to be broadcasting their transactions out to the world and for competitive reasons.

Starting point is 00:38:21 So I think we will probably see privacy coins or privacy technology take off. And frankly, we actually, we're already seeing that. The last area that I could probably pretty confidently say will probably blossom is the smart contract area. And the reason that I say that is because Ethereum has already blossomed and has proven to attract a lot of interesting ideas to it that do take off. rather quickly. For instance, the Dow, which those of you who aren't familiar with that, that was a venture fund that was labeled the DAO, a decentralized autonomous organization. It was meant to be a decentralized venture fund that would invest in various projects that the token holders would vote upon. And it raised $150 million at a time when like barely anybody even understood crypto, let alone owned ether. I mean, it was just really incredible. That all went bust, unfortunately, because there was a bug in the code. However, the whole ICO phenomenon also took place on Ethereum. And in general, I find, you know, as I mentioned

Starting point is 00:39:33 before, a lot of people are building on Ethereum and are looking to build on smart contract platforms. And we're seeing a lot of competition in the smart contract space, I think, probably because people know that this is going to be a big thing. And sure, Ethereum has the lead at the moment, but it's so early that a lot of people want to get in and compete because they know that this game is not over. In terms of what areas I think are complete hype slash scams, I don't know if I can say anything is complete hype or a scam, but I will tell you some of the areas that I'm less sanguine about. And I would say one thing that I've never fully understood is this concept of existing centralized companies doing coins. So like when the Kik news, Kik launched a cryptocurrency called KIN and they were saying that they were

Starting point is 00:40:29 trying to do this like messaging ecosystem. I didn't, I just, I don't know. There was something about that. I just really either didn't get it or just really didn't think it was going to work. And I did not look closely at the telegram white paper. But that was another one. I was so busy at that time. I don't remember. I didn't, so I didn't read the white paper or anything like that. But I I just remember from what I could glean from it. It just felt a little bit like a, I want to say a me too phenomenon, but now that has a very different meaning. What I mean is just, you know, they were kind of glomming onto this trend.

Starting point is 00:41:06 And as far as I understand, they wrote their white paper extremely quickly. So, you know, it's different from some of the other projects that we saw earlier raising money maybe ICOs like Tezos, which had published its white paper in 2014, you know, I think telegrams came together in a few months. Similar to that, I don't understand with a, so a ripple is I think a great company doing great enterprise blockchain work. It's probably one of the most successful in that regard. But I don't understand this kind of situation with XRP that they're trying to do where you keep the middlemen, like you keep the banks, but you're, you also have a coin. As far, you know, I just feel like when I dive into these projects a lot of times,

Starting point is 00:41:53 the ones that make the most sense to me are the ones where you remove the middlemen, but the way that you coordinate these global activities to provide services in the same way that you would want, you know, as if this network were company, is to have a coin that incentivizes those behaviors. So, so I just fundamentally don't understand how you could keep the middleman. men, but if they're all agreeing to do all these things with each other, then I don't feel like you need the coin. So, and frankly, you know, they have full on admitted that their X rapid solution doesn't need XRP. It works without it. So, so, you know, I think, I guess they would agree with me on that point. I'm also not as synquent on enterprise blockchains as I mentioned before.

Starting point is 00:42:37 There, I did write an article about some work being done in that regard. So there, I think, is a joint venture being launched by MERSC and, oh, I'm just blanking, I think it's IBM. And then we saw that news about Walmart tracking the provenance of lettuce on a blockchain. And I do think there are some other applications where, of course, I'm not saying this won't work. I'm just saying, is it going to be revolutionary? I don't really think so. I think it's just a way for existing companies to provide their services better, which is great for all of us, but is it going to change the way things are done? Not really. Next question is from

Starting point is 00:43:18 Phil Gomes. Most people are surprised when I tell them that the Nakamoto White Paper was published 10 years ago on Halloween. Many audiences blanch up hearing this since they feel it must mean they are further behind the times than they thought when they watch into the room. So what would you say to this group? I imagine they would be potential listeners if they felt they weren't already late to the party. What I would say is, the sector is so new. There was a survey in March that said that only 8% of Americans own crypto. And as I was mentioning earlier, I mean, just fundamental questions about usability have not been resolved. So there's so much work to be done if you are someone who's interested in this and kind of feel like you can vision some future where this technology would be used in some

Starting point is 00:44:01 way. You know, if that's the case, then I think there's plenty of room where you could jump in and say, hey, I can help build something here. And the other thing I would say, is that in the CryptoKitties episode, we were joking about the experience of trying to buy a CryptoKitty. And I was saying that what they were describing to me seems like a very pre-AOL experience. And so, yeah, in that regard, I think there's just a lot to be done. And the other thing I would say to that audience is that it's not just coders that are needed. from what I understand talking to the various groups, they're looking to hire people with non-technical skills. I myself have been approached so many times by various teams wanting me to work for them,

Starting point is 00:44:51 and I'm like, no, no, no, no. However, that's only to say that I do know people, even like me, who have zero technical knowledge, you know, can be useful, or at least these teams are looking for people with those kinds of skills. And I think in particular because, especially with the situation with the ICOs where you become not exactly a public company, but I mean, yeah, essentially, you know, you have this direct relationship now with your investors that there's a lot of kind of community management that needs to go on, which is very much more of a soft skills type of job. So, so yes, I do think there's plenty to do if this space interests you. there's a lot to learn, there's a lot to be built. So there's room for a lot more people. And frankly,

Starting point is 00:45:41 also, when I talk to these companies, they're all like, oh my God, we're hiring. Do you know anyone? So if you're interested, I imagine there's a lot of opportunity for you. Next question is from Adam Siddowski. He actually recorded this, so I will play this tape. Hi, Laura. My name is Adam. I listen to your podcast on a regular basis and I enjoy it very much. So I was listening to one of your podcasts that featured Jimmy Song, and my interest was piqued by the short conversation on oracles and the concept of the Oracle problem. I know that Jimmy has some firm and outspoken views on how he believes blockchain technology will evolve, but I felt that he was unfairly dismissive on this matter. In fact, I think that the vast majority of interesting and potentially world-changing smart contract use cases requires them to be externally aware and interoperable with existing financial and network infrastructure. So my question is this.

Starting point is 00:46:39 Why does the conversation about a solution to the Oracle problem seem to be so casually swept under the rug? I'd like to hear about some of the approaches to tackle the problem and which approaches you feel like are most likely to succeed. Thanks. So, oracles, I don't know if I quite agree with part of what you said here in your question where you said that sometimes the question about the Oracle problem seems to be casually swept under the rug. Frankly, a lot of sources will talk to me about how hard it is to do such things and to get even something as simple as like an accurate price for ether. I mean, so this is, you know, here we're talking about a crypto a crypto asset itself, and they're saying, wow, to try to figure out an Oracle for the price of ether

Starting point is 00:47:32 is difficult. Because think about this. Like, what are you going to do? You know, get every single exchange in the world. Plus, I'm not sure what the equivalent of local bitcoins is for ether, but I'm sure there is one plus all the OTC does. Like, how do you do that? And then if you have this situation like we had on G-Dax, shoot, was that in the summer of 2017? I think it was where there was a flash crush in ether because some trader placed a huge, huge order, a single huge order on one exchange. And the price, you know, crashed down to like 10 cents per eath. I don't remember how much it was at the time. Let's say it was like, you know, 300 bucks or more. I really don't know. I mean, then what? Is that, does that really contribute to

Starting point is 00:48:20 the valid price of ether? If you're using this Oracle, like, I mean, it's, it's a really naughty issue. It's not authority issue. It's really something that takes a lot of thought. And there's a great little medium post that talks about the Oracle problem. And I liked this one quote from it, where it said the Oracle problem is just a statement that at some point you need to trust some outside source to accurately give input as to what the state of reality is. And the post was by someone named Alexander Sankoff. And I wrote my college thesis on Nietzsche, who, we'll talk about this problem about like how there is no one objective reality. So I definitely fully agree that yes, sometimes something that seems quite obvious, like, you know, a so-called fact

Starting point is 00:49:08 is sometimes just really hard to verify. That doesn't mean that there aren't solutions out or being proposed out there. One is that you could use a centralized solution, you know, some kind of Oracle that comes, that is a specific company that will ensure the veracity of that data. You know, then of course, the question is, well, then it's a single point of failure. What if somebody could easily be motivated to commit fraud using on that company or within that company to manipulate the markets in some way to their benefit? So then how trustworthy is that? you know, that's a big question there.

Starting point is 00:49:52 Then we have something like Auger, which people vote on the truth. And so they actually, I think, do kind of use a somewhat centralized Oracle process, but because then people vote on it, that kind of helps to ensure the accuracy. And they have a whole mechanism by which you can raise disputes. And for those of you who missed it, you should definitely check out my episode with Joey Krug of Auger where we discussed this. But as you can hear from my questions to him, I could imagine, you know, as a journalist, obviously, I've been following this whole fake news thing. There are some people who are just so vested in their alternative facts, I guess,

Starting point is 00:50:35 you could call them. And for that reason, they just will defend that alternative universe to the death. And so Agar has this situation where like if a certain percentage all agree on on that, then they can like essentially split off. And, you know, there are so many instances where we've seen in our recent political history where, you know, you have these people that claim that like Obama wasn't born in the U.S. or something like that or that Hillary was running a prostitution ring in a pizza parlor in New York or in D.C. and they really, really believe that. Like they really, I think they really believe that.

Starting point is 00:51:18 So who knows? When you start putting money to these things, like will we end up in a situation, which we've seen happening with the crypto assets, where there are a lot of forks? Like, I have no idea. I'm just trying to point out that, yeah, this is one way of trying to resolve these issues via the Oracle process, but is it going to work? I don't know. In some ways I could see it working.

Starting point is 00:51:41 In other ways, maybe not. Another kind of solution that's being put out there is using a process where oracles have to stake money and their reputation and that they have skin in the game. And, you know, that might work. I know that when I interviewed Danny on of trust token, they have some similar mechanism where essentially they want to be able to put real world assets on the blockchain, including, you know, know, I guess like tokenized real estate or something like that. And so I was saying, well, you're not going to have people checking on all these apartments or, you know, buildings all over the world that are being put on this blockchain. And he was like, oh, yeah, but, you know, we have these local people and they can build their reputations by verifying this. And, you know, I did point out, okay, well, then at any given moment, that means that you will have some percentage of fraud on the network

Starting point is 00:52:41 before it gets caught. So, you know, there's, at the moment, I don't really see any perfect solution to this Oracle issue. I think it is a really, really difficult one, super, super, super challenging. Whoever solves it first probably will become one of the leading smart contract platforms, at least until all the others adopt it and then levels of playing field again. All right, my next question is from Katie. My question is about the velocity problem in Ethereum. Can you explain it and is it true? All right. So the velocity problem. Chris Berniske explains this really well on my podcast from, I think roughly a year ago. Gosh, time flies. I don't remember when he came on the show to talk specifically about how to value crypto assets. But I think we discussed

Starting point is 00:53:32 velocity on that show. And essentially, velocity is how quickly money passes from one holder to the next. And the more quickly it passes, the more of a sort of depressive influence it has on that price because you don't have people holding on to it and therefore kind of like artificially reducing supply in the sense that, at least for the amount of buyers out there, there isn't, you know, a lot that people are willing to sell. So in terms of whether or not this applies to Ethereum, I think the main thing, at least at the moment, to, mention is that Ethereum is at some point going to move to a proof of stake system. And in a staking system, that means that the validators have to put up a certain amount of ether

Starting point is 00:54:23 and lock it up in order to become validators, which for those of you who have more of a Bitcoin reference, validators, essentially a minor. And that effect of, or that mechanism of locking it up will have a, should have a positive effect on the price in the sense that that reduces velocity, right? Because it sort of forces this mechanism of holding or hodeling that then reduces velocity. So whether or not it applies to Ethereum in particular, I can't say simply because also Ethereum has a slightly different monetary policy that isn't necessarily fixed. They did recently vote to ratchet down the inflation. So the block reward was reduced from 5 ether to 3 ether in 2017 and then more recently to 2. And, you know, reducing inflation is

Starting point is 00:55:18 similar to the way that the Bitcoin system has been having its block reward every four years. Right now, it's 12.5 bitcoins that are released every 10 minutes. And at the next halving in 2020, it'll be 6.25. And so in that regard, that's also, I think, another way of essentially, you know, keeping the velocity from being high because there's, like I said, less new ether being released into the system thereby making it harder for those people who want to purchase ether. But like I said, I'm not sure if the velocity problem applies to ether in particular. particular, I definitely think it's actually probably worse with other coins. A related question comes from Dan Jehaney. Hopefully I'm pronouncing that right. This one came in

Starting point is 00:56:10 actually super last minute, so I didn't get to email him to ask him how to pronounce his name. But he says, assuming ether doesn't become a store value and token velocity stands its price down to the cost of a marginal transaction, with it not compromise the security of the network under a proof of state consensus. In other words, does ether need to become a store value to ensure the security of the network under proof of stake. So I'm going to full on admit. I have been talking about proof of stake a little bit, but I'm not a huge expert on it. However, as I just mentioned in responding to Katie's question, I don't think velocity will sand its price down to the cost of a marginal transaction as long as we do switch to, as long as Ethereum does switch to proof of

Starting point is 00:56:51 stake. Basically, the main thing is that the price of ether just needs to be high enough that the cost of staking more than 51% of the supply in order to stage a 51% attack needs to be expensive enough that it will deter people from doing that. And that is basically how the network will be secured. So because staking is essentially kind of in some ways easier than proof of work where you need hardware, there could be a lot of people that are that look to get into the staking business. And so in that regard, I think we could see quite a large amount of ether staked. You know, I really have no crystal ball there, but it's just something that I'm guessing. And then about your question about whether or not ether needs to become a store of value to

Starting point is 00:57:44 ensure the security of the network, I don't think it needs to become a store of value in order to keep the price high enough to prevent this 51% attack. You know, as long as the price is just high enough to deter that attack, then I think the network will be secure. And as I mentioned, because I think staking is going to be a little bit easier to get into than mining proof of work, we could maybe see quite a large amount staked. But I'm no expert in proof of stakes. So again, take everything that I'm saying in this regard with a grain of salt. All right, Wookie 25 asks me, one area that I hope you can talk about is privacy coins, including the different technologies, how each technology approaches privacy and security.

Starting point is 00:58:29 So he had two questions, or she, it's terrible. It's terrible. For some reason, I always assume these anonymous ones are men, but they could very well be women. I should know. Number one, which is the most private coin? Okay, so I'm really only going to talk about the two most popular ones, Zcash and Monaro. As far as I understand, I don't think this is really an apples out to Apple's comparison, and I think there's just trade-offs.

Starting point is 00:58:57 So Manero is more popular on the dark web, and it's quote-unquote private by default. But Manero isn't exactly private. And I haven't, as long-time listeners, as you may know, I have not done an interview yet with Ricardo Spanii, or Fluffy Pony of Monero. He's actually one of my favorite people in this space, and he's helped me a lot in various ways of the years.

Starting point is 00:59:19 But I still haven't done an episode with him, so I cannot claim to be an expert on Monero. but from what I can glean, it, you know, like I said, isn't exactly private. It just associates information. So it will mix in individuals transactions with other peoples. So it's not clear who owns which address. And then it'll hide like balances and and create one, random one time addresses that can't be associated with a particular person publicly. So the funds aren't associated with the original address. And, and yeah, it, it, it, basically enables this privacy at the protocol level because I think these are mechanisms that

Starting point is 01:00:00 people could try, you know, using a one-time address, but I mean, a Monaro sort of automates this. However, it's not completely anonymous and there have been vulnerabilities that have been discovered. They've been patched since, but one of them did leave transactions that occurred before February 2017-20-identifiable. So in contrast, Z, Cash, I guess, has stronger privacy technology because it actually does encrypt the data. But it's a much more taxing coin from a processing perspective. And for that reason, or probably a number of reasons, users very seldomly choose to make transactions private.

Starting point is 01:00:43 Only 13% of transactions are private. And for those of you who listened to my episode with Zucco of Zcash, I was mentioning to him that I feel like when you choose to make a transaction private, it does kind of cast suspicion on you. And unfortunately, because of how few people choose this, it turns out then less than 1% of all Zcash transactions involve both a shielded sender and receiver. So I was asking Zucco if this means that Zcash can be solved like a Sudoku, which he denied. But, But, you know, I think it remains to be seen because essentially all the other transactions are pretty much just like bitcoins where, you know, you can figure stuff out.

Starting point is 01:01:33 So one of the other issues with Zcash is that they have this thing called a trusted setup where they undergo this process in the beginning to create the network, but it relies on a small number of people. And you, as the user, have to trust that those creators, not create counterfeit coins. And when they go through this process, they do a lot of things to try to build that trust, that that's not what they're doing. But I know some people take issue with Zcash for that reason. Oh, and then the last thing I just wanted to say was, you know, my comments about how it's pretty, when you do choose a shielded transaction, which is one of

Starting point is 01:02:14 the more private transactions, it's pretty processing intensive. They are upgrading that technology. So perhaps in the future we will see more transactions on Zcash being done in the shielded fashion. The second question is, what is the status of government's tolerance of privacy coins? So this isn't something I've looked into super well, but I did some noodling around and found that the Secret Service did as Congress earlier this year for help in tracking in ininibity-enabled cryptocurrencies. There's a quote here from the deputy assistant director in the U.S. Secret Service Office of Investigations, Robert Novi. He said, we should consider additional legislative or regulatory actions to address potential challenges related to anonymity enhanced cryptocurrencies.

Starting point is 01:03:05 And, you know, he mentions that these cryptocurrencies are clearly ripe for illicit use in an effort to subvert legitimate law enforcement inquiries. Although it is more difficult to trace the movement of elicit proceeds using these newer anonymity-enhanced cryptocurrencies, it is not impossible. And apparently Japan and a few other countries are putting pressure on exchanges to delist privacy coins. One thing I did notice was that in the Senate testimony that Peter Van Valkenberg of CoinCenter did last week was that he didn't, he kind of talked about how a lot of these public

Starting point is 01:03:40 blockchains are auditable and have transactions that are traceable. he did not mention privacy coins, which probably was a conscious decision on coin center's part. But, you know, I think because both Zcash and Monero do have this viewing key option, which is what enables the user to selectively reveal their transactions to whoever they, whomever they choose, you know, perhaps we will see that there's some way in which even privacy coins will take off in some fashion that is not looked down upon by governments. All right, I'm going to try to do, I know that I'm running it running overtime, but I'll try to do a couple more questions. Mike McClone has a question. How enduring is the 2018 trend in lower prices, volatility, and shifting focus to stable coins, notably tether, now number eight on coin market cap. Seems this trend should be the future of cryptos that may actually be used

Starting point is 01:04:44 for peer-to-peer transactions. So in general, I would say that I don't think any price trends we're going to see over the next five to ten years will really endure until the technology becomes fully mature. I know for those of you who follow my stuff, you'll know that I really liked this book by Carlotta Perez, technological revolutions and financial capital, I think it's called. And in it, she describes these sort of like boom, bust cycles where when a new technology comes in, we see the sort of like speculative fervor. And then during that time when a lot of money sloshing around, the technology kind of gets built and sort of proves itself to a certain point,

Starting point is 01:05:28 which then spurs another wave of speculative fervor and investment, which then allows the technology to mature further. And, you know, on and on this cycle goes until basically it becomes like really entrenched and the pitfalls of that technology become apparent. And then that sort of like opens the door to the next wave of technology to come in and and take advantage of, you know, whatever the downsides are of that technology. So it's, it's super interesting. But anyway, for that reason, because the technology is so far from being anywhere near mature at this moment, I don't think this quote unquote, 2018 trend that you reference here with lower prices, I don't really think it's like a trend unless you just look at it from a long-term perspective and say that it's part of the

Starting point is 01:06:17 trend that we've seen so far on cryptocurrency where there's a bull run, huge run-up in prices. Then there's a big crash, which lasts for like a year or two years. And then there's another big run, which then leads to a crash, which probably lasts for roughly the same amount of time again. So, you know, the two main ones that I'm talking about, which people will know or may know are in the fall of 2013. I think China started getting into this and that's when we first saw the price of Bitcoin exceed $1,000. And then eventually, you know, right after that was the Mount Glock's hack and then the price slowly declined until January of 2015 when it like hit below $200.

Starting point is 01:07:01 It was like $177, I think was the low. And then it just sort of kind of traded sideways in a $200 range for most of 2015 until towards the end of that year. And then 2016, you know, was sort of gradually increased, but it was really 2017, obviously where we saw a similar hype cycle to the end of 2013. And there was that massive bubble.

Starting point is 01:07:26 And then again, I think this year we're sort of seeing this kind of like more sober view of the market right now. So anyway, so I think that's kind of just going to be part and parcel of the space. for the next couple years. In terms of your comments here on stablecoins, I would say that there's definitely significant momentum building behind stable coins.

Starting point is 01:07:47 Apparently there's now, like, around 100 stablecoin projects that are either live or in the pipeline stage. And some of these that were recently announced, like the Gemini US dollar and the Paxos, Ipet stablecoin, they had approval from the New York Department of Financial Services, which is pretty big deal.

Starting point is 01:08:10 And one of the biggest pieces of news around stable coins in the last month was that A16Z crypto did invest in MakerDAO's MKR tokens. Those are not the actual stable coin. They're kind of like this other coin within the ecosystem that enables governance. And I did an episode with Rune Christensen of MakerDAO on Unconfirmed that you guys should check out if you didn't listen to that. But certainly Maker has a lot of momentum behind it. I've done other episodes with the Danion of Trust Token, who I mentioned, they have a stable coin called TrueUSD. And I think in general, you know, simply because we all live in this world

Starting point is 01:08:55 where we're used to using the dollar as a reference point, I do think stable coins will be key to helping the get more people into the ecosystem and comfortable with, you know, trading and putting their money into, into crypto. So in that regard, yeah, I do think the stable coin trend, if you want to show out trends, is one that we will see more of in the future. And I am so sorry, you guys, but this is like going on way longer than I expected. And I'm not getting to, um, the rest of these questions is just there there were too many and unfortunately it took me a lot longer to get through what I have already answered so far but anyway, thanks so much for joining us today. If you enjoyed this episode, please rate it on Apple Podcasts.

Starting point is 01:09:50 And if you like this episode, share it with your friends on Facebook, Twitter, or LinkedIn. And if you're not yet subscribed to unconfirmed, definitely check it out and subscribe now. I really think you guys would enjoy that. I'm Shane is produced by me, Laura Shen, with help from Relyengola Poly, Fractal recording, Jenny Shopseson, and Daniel Ness. Thanks for listening.

Unchained - Listener Mail: Laura Answers Your Questions on the Markets, Velocity, Privacy and More! - Ep.88

There aren't comments yet for this episode. Click on any sentence in the transcript to leave a comment.