Unchained - NFCastle 2021: Art Controversy – NFTS: Nothing F**king There? - Ep.288

Episode Date: November 9, 2021

At Non-Fungible Castle 2021, an NFT exhibition in Prague, four NFT experts debate some of the hottest topics in the metaverse, like how to value NFTs, whether insider trading exists, what makes Ethereum-based NFTS so special, and the environmental impact of NFTs.  Guests include Maria Paula Fernandez, co-founder at JPG, Kavita Gupta, cofounder of FINTECH.TV, Oliver Halsman Rosenberg, artist, and Gmoney, an NFT collector. Show highlights: what an NFT is  why NFTs have value what the “myth of decentralization” has to do with NFT valuation why collectors like gmoney prefer to collect NFTs on Ethereum vs. other chains how provenance and IP rights interact with value why gmoney thinks Solana Punks are like fake Chanel bags what “owning an NFT” actually means whether newbies need to be protected from buying scam NFTs the “rite of passage” of falling pretty to a rug pull and the concept of “do your own research” (DYOR) what can be done about insider-trading-like activities in NFTs how to navigate public-facing blockchains when your address is doxed different ways to link off-chain assets to NFTs what the crypto industry can do to better understand the NFT impact on climate change   Thank you to our sponsors! Crypto.com: https://crypto.onelink.me/J9Lg/unconfirmedcardearnfeb2021  Nodle: https://bit.ly/3AXGydJ    Episode Links   Non-Fungible Castle 2021 Website: https://www.nfcastle.com/ Conference recordings: https://www.nfcastle.com/conference Twitter: https://twitter.com/nf_castle  Tweet thread of Laura’s experience at NFCastle 2021:  https://twitter.com/laurashin/status/1449731658928824320  Maria Paula Fernandez Medium: https://mariapaulafernandezneglia.medium.com/ LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/mar%C3%ADa-paula-fern%C3%A1ndez-no-social-selling-please-a96a8034/   Kavita Gupta Twitter: https://twitter.com/KavitaGupta19  Oliver Halsman Rosenberg Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/oliver_halsman_rosenberg/?hl=en  LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/oliver-halsman-rosenberg-940a0935  gmoney https://twitter.com/gmoneyNFT  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Hi, y'all, before we begin, just a quick reminder that if you want to pre-order my book, The Cryptopians, Idealism, Greed lies in the making of the first big cryptocurrency craze, you can do so at Bitley slash Cryptopians. That's B-I-T-L-Y slash C-R-Y P-T-O-P-I-A-N-S. And second, today's episode is a really fun and controversial panel that I moderated at N-F Castle, put on by the Czech noble family, the Lopkowitz, family at their palace in Prague Castle. This panel was called Art Controversy. NFTs. Nothing effing there? The speakers were Maria Paola Fernandez, co-founder at JPG, Cavita Gupta, co-founder of Fintech TV,

Oliver Halsman Rosenberg, an artist, and G Money, NFT collector. This discussion is definitely one to remember, given the surprising and sometimes even shocking stances of some of the panelists. And, And as I mentioned last week, I am excited to tell you more about the Lopkowitz family and why they've turned to NFTs in a future episode. But for now, enjoy this super fun discussion from NF Castle. Buy, earn, and spend crypto on the crypto.com app. New users can enjoy zero credit card fees on crypto purchases in the first 30 days. Download the crypto.com app and get $25 with the code Laura. Link in the description.

The Nodal Cash app makes earning crypto on your smartphone as easy as turning on your Bluetooth. Notal Cash is private, secure, and available on iOS and Android. Visit nodal.io slash unchained. That's NODLE.io slash unchained to start earning Nodalcash. All right. Well, this is going to be a really fun panel because, as we all know, since NOTs burst onto the scene, They've been doing pretty much nothing but creating a lot of controversies. And there's a lot to cover.

Why don't we just do a quick spin around the panel so everyone can make their introductions? Should I go first? Yeah, go ahead, maybe? Okay. So I am Maria Paola. I've been in the blockchain space for a while. I got to know NFTs in 2018, where I also bought my first ones. And I didn't think it was a big deal, but I was super interested because I'm interested in culture.

and it sort of solved the problem with provenance in the art world. Then I continued researching about them. I published two papers. I am still working in a blockchain infrastructure. I serve at the board at Golem, so I didn't think this could have become a business until this year where NFT started booming and I started my own business that's called JPEG,

or JPEG, but we pronounce it JPEG, as Web 3 natives. And, yeah, it's a curation protocol. So super excited to be here. Thank you, everyone, for having me. Kavata. Yeah. Thank you, Laura.

Hi, my name is Kavata Gupta. I started my journey in crypto back in 2013, but I think Ethereum is what made me realize a lot of excitement in the space. For NFTs, I was very fortunate, which feels now, to be a part of the first ever standard paper back in end of 2017, early 2018, which a lot of people, actually a lot of people over here would know the first time when we did the standard paper, we got bashed by half of the crypto community. So because most of the people felt like how the asset collateralization is going to work on it,

but I'm very, very excited to see how NFT has come up in the space. We also did one of the first checks into the top NFT companies today with OpenC, DAPA, DAPA, Dada, Sore, etc. And now I recently launched my own early stage venture fund, Delta blockchain. Okay. Thank you, Laura. And thank you to William Jr. for inviting me here to be with you all.

My name is Oliver Halsman Rosenberg. So I'm a Gemini. I have like multiple personalities. So I'm an artist and I'm an estate manager. And I'm a tech startup founder. and I can talk about all those projects extensively, but I've been doing art and technology since 2004, 2005, doing interactive pieces with communities using pre-Skype laptop set up in streets

and cities, and we would ask people to come to the laptop and we'd draw their dreams and wishes live for them. I've always been, like, engaging in what art and technology can be, and also from, like, a philosophical sense. I write papers about, you know, consciousness and the metaverse and quantum physics and spirituality and identity. So I'm just approaching this space from so many different angles. And also, as an NFT artist, myself, I started making NFTs like a year ago. So lots to say about all this. And I'm Gmoney.

I'm a collector in the space, investor. I currently run in VC infrastructure fund with Delphi Digital and just an all-around NFT advocate. Okay. And so for those watching the live stream, also GMoney asked not to be on video. So if you are just hearing a voice coming out of nowhere, that is who is speaking. All right. So let's just start with a super basic question.

And this one has sparked a lot of conversation, pretty much throughout the life existence of N of NFTs, but what are NFTs? Are they actually valuable cultural objects, or are they just a new vehicle for speculation? Oh, yeah, expound on that. I mean, why not? But, but, like, do you think that NFTs will retain their value, like, all, you know, because right now, an ether rock, or not right now, but as of, like, a month ago, which, by the way, if you don't know what an ether rock is, it's basically a clip art of a rock, and there are different colors, I guess, but it's just clip art. And the cheapest one, as of a month ago,

was going for a little over $3 million. So, you know, I don't know what you want to say about. Do you really think that an ether rock is still going to be worth $3 million or more in the future? I didn't say that. I just think that people are actually, you know, like we are talking about a new universe, you know, however you want to call it, Metaverse or any other.

less gringe sort of denomination. We're talking about, you know, a future where people are deciding their own mediums of exchange. And within these mediums of exchange, NFTs have happened to be, you know, the prime and most covetable asset. And it happened with spices before maybe cardamom was hot back then. And then, you know, people decided to adopt cardamom and paid shitloads of money for cardam. and it didn't have to make sense.

It was about, you know, the value that people gave to the spice or to the rock or to the punk. So, you know, and obviously, because that is culture, you know, exchanging stuff between people and creating economies, it's part of the culture and gross culture as well at the same time. So why not both things, you know? I would say exactly what Paula actually tried to say is the value is defined by the market, right? Even for a currency, a gold or platinum, it is supply and demand and it is what you really like.

But I think NFT overall, for me, get divided into two categories. One is play and earn, and the other one is collectible. Now, play and earn is completely going to be driven by gaming and metaverse industry more than just speculation. When it comes to collectible, I think demand is speculation. Why is Picasso much more important than 10 other artists, right? Somebody came and decided this is way more valuable than anybody else and this is going to be the base price for it. And I think for ETHROC, I have been actually waiting to see if ETHRoc value going to go down,

but the more people in NFT comes in looks like that clip art still has way more value then a lot of new, interesting metaverse project coming out. So I don't see at least for one or two more crypto winters for the Heath Rock prices to go down, Laura. Well, you know, I find it interesting what you said about the Picasso's because I feel like the view is that there's something kind of inherently valuable in a Picasso and the talent of that person that created that cultural object in a way that I don't think you could really attribute to Ether Rock.

So here we have an actual artist and then right next to a collector. So I'm curious to hear. I'm going to give you an artistic answer, which is I'm going to zoom out a little bit and look at NFTs more like a means of communication. We're living in a new mythological age. And I see it's the myth of decentralization that's happening. And the NFTs are like the medium of distribution of this idea and this concept. if you look back through the history of culture, mankind has always been using art to communicate

something, and art has been married to technology from cave painters or, you know, in the Lascaves figuring out how to get palm prints to stick for 60,000 years, or whether it's, you know, sculptors or the pottery wheel and just the advancement of the different tools to create, like, permanence to a permanent record of something. So, you know, no matter what the content of the NFT is itself, it points back to the blockchain. And what is the blockchain? It's this decentralized David versus Goliath, like, mythological time period that we're living in now. And I think we can get into the nitty-gritty about, like, which artist is doing what with what technology, but like the zoomed-out view, I think NFTs are, you look at the Homer's,

Odyssey or Gilgamesh's or even the Bhagavad Gita. These are like chanted songs that are like repeated through repetition and like all these transaction on the blockchain and the repetitions and the minting of multiples. It's all like it's all reinforcing this concept of like the blockchain and as like this new form of communication that we have as a culture to communicate with each other. So the art is just like one example now of what it is. And I think it's fascinating and I'm so excited by it. But I also think there's like a much larger narrative happening that we're all participating in whether we realize it or not.

And actually, before we turn to you money, I do want to ask you though, because you were saying when we did the prep for this panel, something that is nowhere near as kind of highfalent as what you just said, which is you were like, oh, I got this great. to do NFTs on Polygon, which for those of you who don't know is a side chain on Ethereum where essentially the fees are just so much cheaper, so it's like much, much cheaper to mint NFTs. And you told me that collectors said that they weren't going to be interested because it wasn't on Ethereum itself. And so to me that says something about just how NFTs really are more about status, right? Because it's showing, if that's what they're interested in, and then essentially they're trying to say, we have the money to buy NFTs or in Ethereum where the fees are high.

wrong? What's your interpretation of? And can I just quickly add, which I added during that time, that I was so hurt because we are early invested in Polygon and you don't think Polygon is cool? No, no, I love Polygon, and I think we'll get to this later, and I know you have a lot to say on the status flexing, but

like just to wrap up the Polygon the Polygon part, like I think, okay, for the green aspect on blockchain, like it's smart to like find a low-cost transactional environmental environmental friendly alternative to Ethereum.

But I also realize that by making Ethereum, because the gas fees are so expensive for Ethereum, it keeps a certain level of market entry. You know, not everyone can enter into the market. So because Polygon is so inexpensive, people were getting spammed, air drop Polygon. So that's why there was a disdain against it, not because of the technology at all.

I think it's a great technology. I think they're going to be around, and maybe not so much in the art space, but as a blockchain layer two protocol, like for sure, Polygon are like a great alternative. But I know you have a lot to say on Ethereum. Yeah, so I guess one thing as a collector, the reason why I prefer Ethereum over other chains

is just because the provenance of it, right? So much stuff has already been on there. Besides just NFTs, right? It's a very secure protocol. Why wouldn't I want my art to be on the most secure protocol out of anything out there that I collect? and I do think that there is status in art

whether the art world cares to admit it or not if you're spending $100, $200 million on a painting it's not necessarily because it's the best painting of that period it's because there's a story behind it, it means something to you and your counterparts and you're trying to show that off, right? So if NFTs are about flexing, they're about flexing just as much as the contemporary art world

is as far as I'm concerned. Yeah, well, I wanted to ask you about this really funny tweet that you tweeted. So basically, Cryptopunks were virtually on Ethereum, but when they showed up on Solana, there was an investment group that tweeted about how it spent a quarter of a million dollars on one of these rare puns, but was on Salana. And you tweeted back at them. Imagine going to Chinatown to buy a fake Chanel bag and then tweeting about it. So tell us what you were thinking when you tweeted that. Well, you know, like I personally as a Cryptopunk holder, I loved it because any other, like, you don't go and buy fake products of something that is not valuable, right?

So if you're willing to spend money on a fake version of something, that means the real version is worth a lot, right? So anytime somebody will do a copycat project like they do on a bunch of all these other side chains where you see all these crypto punk projects pop up, it just reinforces the Cryptopunk meme, right? It makes Cryptopunks that much more valuable because you have people telling that narrative. But like, I just think it's funny because it's like if you want to, if you think that that will be, the story behind Cryptopunks isn't necessarily that there are these cool like 8-bit digital pictures. It's the story behind it, you know, the community that

reformed naturally around it, the group of people that, you know, like, I'll admit, like when I first found punks, I thought they were ugly, right? And now like I look at like the punks that I own. I'm like, oh, that's a beautiful punk. Like, I really like that one, right? It's like they, like, there's like this really, like, intricate community that is really involved with it. So when you're sitting there and you're buying like a knockoff and then bragging about it, like I just think that's, that's really funny because like people, like I said,

if somebody buys a fake bag or fake something, like they don't brag about it. They try to hide the fact that it's a fake. But isn't that a little bit against maybe the democratizing ideal of blockchain? I mean, like, that's why everybody, or everybody likes to claim that that's, you know, one of the reasons that they got into this. And so if you're just trying to keep things rare and, like, only for a student group, like, how do you kind of reconcile? Yeah, but I mean, that's the nature of the project, right?

Like, they made 10,000 of them, and they weren't going to make any more, right? Like, it's, that's just, that was the concept of the whole project itself, right? They didn't say, they weren't like, oh, we're going to make 10,000, and, like, we'll keep on releasing more over time. like nouns is a great example right like they make one every day in perpetuity right and that's like that's the rules of the that's the rules of that game right and so it's like when you sign up for the game or you sign up for the project to be a collector like these are the rules if tomorrow larva labs announced that they were making 10,000 more crypto punks like I'm sure the market would tank for for

crypto punks but I think I want to add to another layer to it isn't it also about the provenance like the ownership rights and the IP rights is associated with it? So if I created something and I am the creator or the owner of it, and then some new chain comes in tomorrow and just copy-paste it without having me or my DAO associated with it, how is that even blockchain world legal? I mean, why are we talking about intellectual property when we are actually building on the base of cyberpunk's ideas where intellectual property is not going to be a thing? I don't think that's actually the right way to see Cryptopunks.

I do appreciate a lot, you know, the initial Cryptopunks. And it's about, you know, he had said it so well. It's about the community that's around them. It's about, you know, the fact that they were the first ones. And taking a little bit more into, you know, the philosophical sort of realm. There was this guy a long time ago. His name was Walter Benjamin. He wrote a book that was an essay, sorry, that was called

The Work of Art in the Age of Mechanical Reproduction. And basically what it proposes is that an artwork can be reproduced infinitely, but the original piece retains the aura, and the more it's reproduced, the more the aura is diluted. So that's the way that I see. see Cryptopunks versus Binance punks or Solana punks or, you know, whatever, chain punks. You know, the original crypto puns have that aura, have that community. You can't take that away from them.

You know, the others, like intellectual property or not, they can change it a little bit and it's not going to be intellectual property anymore. But no, no. I wasn't talking about intellectual property. I think it's more about the ownership rights on NFT, like the whole idea of NFT. But what does the ownership actually on NFTs give you? I mean, that's why I was going to that. The whole idea of the NFT,

if you read the original standard paper, or the whole ownership rights or the provenance right, is between the creator, how many pieces you are doing, and then using the blockchain, the idea of putting it onto blockchain, is to basically having that whole ownership chain built on there, so that tomorrow,

if you have a really, really, like, one of the rocks, which is now a very expensive piece, You can know whether this is an original one or this is the fake one. You can still buy a fake one. But we're talking about fake ones. They not only have that provenance, but they also don't have the community and everything associated. So there's two parts of the whole thing.

Of course, there's the ownership part that's publicly on record, forever, all the attributes of the blockchain you want to give them, but there's also the erratic sort of permanence of the actual Do you want to say something? Yeah, I just think the zoomed-out view is that there's a lot of new people in the space that don't know that the original punks were on Ethereum

and they're just like, oh, that's the thing to get. Oh, it's on Solana. So there are people behind these launches that are taking advantage of newcomers into the space and it's not unique to Cryptopunks. it happens in Meccaverse and whatever project, even with the board ape yacht club, so what it is is there are people that are taking advantage of newcomers in the space. It's not taking advantage.

It's giving them the ability to purchase whatever they want and give them the subjective value. But if you buy a board ape on Solana that doesn't come with the IP that the board ape... Will they sleep at night? Like, will maybe... I think they will be happy. You know, they just have an ape. I think you can create community. But if a project gives the IP to somebody and then the owner,

if you have the ownership of an NFT and you get the IP rights as the owner and then someone just mince the same thing on a different chain and that new buyer is going to think that they have the IP, that creates confusion, right? That's all I'm trying to say. How do you know you have a fake currency till actually somebody doesn't come and prove it? But if that currency is still getting accepted and has a community behind it, it's a currency. Let's take it to the time where you couldn't afford.

designer bags, but you really wanted sort of like the vibe around it, and you bought the fake designer bag. I slept. I had no problem. Okay. That's what I could afford. Well, you know, like some people would buy the fake designer bags and, you know, pretend they were that because it's a little bit of a larp as well, you know, and this world is about, you know, flexing whilst and, you know, pretending things. There's so many people out there, like in crazy places, like San Trope or elsewhere, pretending they have money. And, you know, having dupes of things is actually, you know, more pretending. And that's their whole existence. So we shouldn't really judge them.

No, I think what Oliver is getting at, though, is the fact that you have people, it's almost like when you fork a project, right? And like the fork isn't as, it's trying to take advantage of the same meme that the original project have. And so somebody that doesn't know any better is buying in thinking, hey, I'm buying a crypto punk. It's a cheaper version of crypto punk, but it's not a crypto punk, right? But I understand what you're saying in the sense that the provenance is on chain. Right.

Like to me, provenance is key, right? Like we're moving towards a world that code is law, right? At some point, there won't be IP law that gets handled in legal courts down the future. And we're like setting the road for that, but like we're not there yet, right? But like right now, if I'm coming into the space, I'm like, okay, I can buy a crypto punk for a thousand bucks. You're not buying a crypto punk. Like you're getting scammed, right? Like you're- It's not a job to protect people, you know. Right. But then at some point, then at some point what you're inviting for regulators to come into the space and say, hey, now we have to have hard consumer protection laws if we can't, if we can't regulate the space ourselves.

Well, clearly, if regulators can't actually, you know, figure out anything about our space, I don't expect them to figure out. the difference between Solana punk or Crystal Punk. You know, we have a lot of words to do that. That's your first controversy, Laura. Congratulations. Yeah, well, actually, this is the perfect segue because I was going to ask next about rug pulls. And there have been so many rug pulls in NFTs as well. And, I mean, you just said that, like,

it's not your job to protect people. But, I mean, some of this stuff is, like, really, you know, pretty, I mean, terrible, you know, promising, like. Yeah. Yeah, I can't remember what was iconic where they proposed, oh, we're going to do this like 3D thing and then people just got emojis. I mean, it's like terrible. Or the one where they sold and then they...

I got an emoji printed on a $5 t-shirt for a four to eat. Wait, I didn't. Yeah, but there was another one where they literally swapped the file and it was photos of rugs. Which is like terrible. They did that. I mean, it's like it's awful. Sounds like a brilliant conceptual piece to me. So you think that like that should be allowed or like...

I think, raise your hands if you have never been rock-bold in your whole crypto life. If you're a crypto-native. You have never been rock-polled? No. Okay, I'm proud of you. I have. And I've been in crypto for almost four years, five years working. And I had to make mistakes, and that's how you learn as well.

You know, in the real world, also, you know, no one's going to protect you. You know, like banks will say that they're going to protect you. in the end, they're going to be the ones that they're going to screw you the mostest. So, really, like, if you don't build your own thick skin, who'll do it for you? And so, and what the rest of you think? Like, should there be no protections for rug pulls? And, like, I don't know, self-regulatory. I think it's a fact of life, right?

They're going to be rug pulls. It happens. But, what, I mean, we can try to stop that as much as we possibly can or try to educate people as much as we possibly can, right? Not everybody needs to learn the same lesson the hard way, right? Like if, and this is, you know, when people get hacked, they always share the story of how they end up getting hacked so more people don't get hacked, right? Like, it's a sad fact that there will be rug pulls,

but like what can we do as a community to make that better over time? I think it's a combination of both, right? Of course there are going to be fake projects. There are going to be projects which even after being fake going to get a lot of reputation for one or the other reason, going to have big community, but I have seen different behaviors from this community, which has sometimes pleasantly surprised me and sometimes, like, maybe that's the way. I think there was a project which one of my friend, who's in the audience,

actually was telling me about, that somebody took an open source quote from one of the NFT project, copy-pasted it, 90% of it, and created a whole DAO and an NFT project around it. But when the original artist actually realized, he complained, and the DAO for the second project made the founder to share 50% revenue with the first founder. And it's like three weeks back actually when it happened. So I think there are going to be more and more DAO-oriented sort of like legal supervision, which is going to happen, which is amazing,

because that's the core of the decentralized crypto world. But there are also going to be issues which Tao will not be capable or informative enough to be able to do it. And I do feel like the more regulation going to come into the space, the more ownership rights we're going to really value. This is going to get better. But I also, funnily, do agree with you that when we're going to have projects which are going to be copy of something or 20% copy of something, I think at the end of the day, they are your expression if you don't call exactly the same. Like if there is some silvert change in Cryptopunk and you call it Cryptosilvet,

it's a new project, but then at least you are not comparing it to the original. And then I won't judge them, I promise. No, for sure. But also what you said about, you know, Daos coming into the scene and deciding what's right and what's wrong in the context of, you know, a Tao being sufficiently decentralized and not just like an elite club, which is really important. I think that's actually the key, you know.

If we can create dows that are sufficiently decentralized and able to make their own decisions and do the social condemnation for the users that are getting scammed or are just dumbed or they just want to flex, then that's actually, you know, a really pretty decent world. Yeah. But as an artist, what do you think? Thank you.

You know, look, they're fake paintings in the art world. I just saw a Netflix documentary about this gallery that had to close in New York because of all the fakes that they're selling. You know, D-Y-O-R, it's a big acronym in the crypto space. Do your own research. It's a rite of passage, I think, you know, talking about the, like, zoomed-out mythological thing. You know, okay, you get burnt and you learn, and everyone's in the discords and everyone's sharing, like, hey watch out for this oh yeah that like meccaverse did a fake like pre-launch page and if you connected your metamask it like pulls everything out or like don't open that you know if anyone

gets airdrop this token don't open it because it has some malicious code that like empties your wallet out so there's there's just a lot of it's a very open space I think that's the beauty of of the whole crypto nfti world is that it is a lot about community and you know and then people get get exiled, and if they get doxed for being behind a project, they did a rug pull, it's like game over, you know? So it's going to happen, but that's part of life. Wow, this is definitely like the crypto anarchist panel. Like we don't have, because I, I feel like in crypto itself and in defy, there was a lot of talk about self-regulation, and like, I think there actually were a few different self-regulatory bodies that said they were going to

set up, and you guys are all like, no, people just, you know, tough luck for them if they get screwed. There's good things coming out of all of that. You know, when Uniswap got vampire attacked and then we all got rat pulled, that was not fun. I was, you know, we were all part of, you know, the sushi farming, crazy fever. But then actually sushi reorganized, understood, you know, that was fucked. And they're actually a fully fledged business right now.

They have a fully operational decks. MISO is a platform for auctions that's functioning. You know, they had some obstacles as well, but it's going really well. They have onsen as well. So, you know, good things can come out of all of that. Yam is another example, you know, founded by actually one of JPEC's co-founders. They didn't get rag pulled, but there was like a main flaw in their code. and a huge mess happened, but then Yam reorganized based on the community that they had created,

and now it's also a fully-fledged project. So, you know, the thing that I believe from, like, you know, not from the crypto anarchist side, but more from the, like, we are super flexible and also have temporary amnicious side, is that you can create things out of almost nothing, because there's so much going on in the space that, Yes, there are rock pools, but at the same time, people tend to forget, and then that's time to build for you. It's still time. You can create your own things.

You can reborn projects. There's a great capacity for redemption and for acceptance of that redemption. So, yeah, you know, nothing is the end of the world in this, like, weird world. With Notal Cash, you can earn crypto on your mobile device for free, with no hardware to purchase. You just download the Nodal Cash app, turn on your Bluetooth, and start earning. Notal Cash is private, secure, and easy to earn, whether you're on the go, stuck in traffic, or even while you're sleeping. You can even repurpose your old smartphones to earn Nodal Cash.

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and Amazon Prime subscriptions and zero annual fees. Download the crypto.com app and get $25 with the code Laura. Link in the description. Yeah, yeah. I mean, clearly. I mean, so many things have happened and it still marches on. But I do wonder, you know, there have been some other controversies like around kind of a form of what we would call insider trading, but I don't know if that term applies because at least in the U.S., it specifically applies to stocks, but there was the head of product at OpenC who was caught kind of like trying to profit

from what he knew was going to be featured on the OpenC homepage. And I'm just curious, like, you know, what do you think are maybe some best practices that the community should adopt or should there, is it just common sense? or like, you know, yeah, what's your take on? I mean, obviously, I'm not a fan of it, right? Like, I think that that's an internal decision policy

that needs to be made at OpenC and any of those marketplaces. I haven't really thought about it that much because I'm not an internal policymaker, right? Like, I think it sucks, but I also know that, like, when I buy stuff, I try to do my own research, especially now that I know my wallet gets tracked, then people will see me mint something or buy something and buy it just because I'm buying it,

regardless of maybe I'm just buying it because I'm like, oh, like, I like, I like the art, right? Like, I just, I think that this is cool, like, whether I think it's going to make money or not, regardless. But I know that I have to, I have that responsibility to people, because I'm a public figure in the space of people, like, tracking my wallet. And I think that all these marketplaces and organizations need, these founders need to make decisions being like, okay, well, I know that this could be market-moving information, and we have to develop policies internally for it. A lot of it comes down to ethics. Like you said, it's not regulated, so there's

no necessarily breaking the law, but it's ethically dubious at best, right? And it's like, how do you want to be perceived by the community? And do you want them to trust you, right? Because once, especially as a marketplace, if you lose that trust, then people just won't want to transact on your platform and you're going to lose volume over time. So, you know, like these are ethical decisions that need to be made, but they do have long-term consequences to each business owner. But do you also, one question is, do you feel that this kind of thing makes NFT's financial products and should they be regulated as such? Then you'd want to regulate. I mean, I think everything in the world is an NFT. So if you want to relate, I mean, it's true, right? Like,

you're wearing a shirt, I'm wearing a shirt. If we were to exchange shirts, we don't have the same value, right? So they're not fungible. The ScoreBet app here with trusted stats and real-time sports news. Yeah, hey, who should I take in the Boston game? Well, statistically speaking. Nah, no more statistically speaking. I want hot takes.

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Yeah, like you're wearing a shirt right now and I'm wearing a T-shirt. Right. If we were to exchange our T-shirts, right, we don't necessarily have the- The T-shirts themselves don't have. Okay. Yeah. So we have different values of our T-shirts. Right.

So they're non-fundgible, right? So my thesis is that over time, as the world becomes more digitized, they will be coming on-chain as non-fundable tokens, right? Because everything in the world is non-fundable. So if you want to regulate NFTs, you have to regulate pretty much every industry and commodity and product in the world. Wow. Can I go back to your first question where we, I think we talked about OpenC.

It is a very, what I'm going to say is a very, unpopular like stand, but I want to say in this particular case, in just this particular case, I don't think the individual did it knowingly when I think of insider trading coming from trading flow, regulated background. When you think of insider

trading, you think of insider trading. It's something which you have planned through, which you have done it with steps by talking to somebody. Like, there is a whole process around it. In my in my completely personal opinion, I feel like this is someone who got super excited about a particular product, bought it, and then whether he knew it at that point of time or didn't know it at that point of time that this is about to go on the main page, but this is actually going to increase his value or not to the extent.

But for 18-Eth, this is a very good learning lesson for the rest of the NFT community. It's not a big amount, to be honest. If I would tomorrow have to do insider trading, I hope I'll do it at least 1,000-Eath. but I hope I add some value. But like for 18E, whatever happened to the individual who is actually one of, as much as I know about him, directly or indirectly, a very, very hardworking individual, that happened.

And unfortunately, or whatever happened in that case, but I believe that it did open the floodgare of talking about insider trading. But then to the core of your question, and if there is a value associated with any product, whether you are buying a milk from the street, whether you are buying a burger from a restaurant, if you are paying anything to that, there is a value associated with that,

there is also expectation of a fair game associated with that. So, of course, you expect that fair game. Does it have to be regulated all the way to SEC, CFTC level at this part when we are still figuring out what NFTs are and what is actually going to be the future potential of it, I'm not 100% sure. I think what hurts the most is that they were so dumb. You know, good obsec would have...

So you think what he did was okay? It's just... No, no. I think it's bad, but what hurts the most is the bad obsec. The same with the case that we had this past week. You know, everything traceable to E&S addresses in a world where we know how... to be anonymous, how when we don't want to be anonymous, we also know that. You know, it's just as if, you know, they were, you know, they were naive enough to think. I think he's a smart enough guy. Right. I personally really think he just really didn't think that it is going to be perceived

as insider trading, whether that was a smart move or not. And I'm not trying to defend that people should do insider trading if this is an insider trading. Wait, but so you know him personally? That what you're saying? And you have... I mean, I know the guy. It's not like I was with him when he was doing this. But is that how he presented it to you?

I'm sorry? Is that how he spoke about it to you? No, no, no. But I think this is the way I see it knowing whatever I know limited about the guy, first hand or second hand, that I don't think in this space, if you are such a crypto native

and you want to do, as she's saying, some sort of a fraud. First, for 17, 18, 8th, and secondly, not even a single attempt to mask it whatsoever. It just doesn't even make sense in a practical space. Okay. Well, you know, this actually goes to another question that I was going to ask about, which was about privacy.

I mean, like, what's your take, like, G money when you were saying that people are now following you? Like, what, do you have kind of like your own private other address that no one knows about, or do you feel comfortable? No, I definitely have an un-doxed wallet, right? because I also know that, you know, like I said, sometimes I just want to mess around, and I think something, like I want to mint something just because I think it's cool and whatever. I don't think much of it. I will do something in there.

Or if I want to trade something, I'll do something in there. But, like, I'm very cognizant. And I think this raises, like, a really interesting question of because things happen on chain and because things are on chain forever, right? Like, your ethics matter so much more in crypto than necessarily the law, right? Because whether, you know, obviously at this point in time, there's no laws regarding NFTs and insider trading or whatever it is. I think what was done was wrong. I know that if I was in that situation, I wouldn't, like, there's no, the way I see it is like there's no amount.

You have one reputation and there's no amount of money that will pay for that reputation. But like I think that this is like an interesting part of the world that are of the movement that we're currently in where it's people realizing that like you have to. hold yourself to like a higher an ethical standard, right? Because people can view your actions on chain and that's what's going to matter in the long run whether it's illegal or legal in the court of the law.

Okay, so I also actually also wanted to ask a question for Oliver just about creators because earlier today I was talking with Will who was on Will Papper who was on the previous panel, the creator of Adventure Gold and he was saying that when he

had some ideas on how to do more adventure for additional communities that, I mean, he said some of this was probably unjust, but people were sending him death threats and other people were like threatening that they were going to commit suicide. And I mean, that's kind of crazy. And I was just curious, like, you know, even when you talked about building on Polygon, like, how do you think about, like, your, your responsibility to your community and how you kind of either preserve value for them or, you know, But then also, as we talked about earlier, pursue the democratizing ideals of blockchain technology. Right, right.

So, gosh, there's a lot to talk about here. So let's talk about value. Let's talk about, like, we're all talking about, like, we're all here because pretty much that people sale, right? I mean, let's get, let's be honest about it. Everyone realized, okay, money, you're like crypto, NFTs, and then everybody wanted to jump on board. So when I saw that, I realized, okay, here's a big opportunity to create a marketplace, taking that energy and that excitement around NFTs and teaming up artists with charities and doing like a charity marketplace and making that a Dow so that we can like take this energy

and still release like amazing art, but that we're like supporting people on the ground doing the work because in 10 years, if we're all have the, you know, Genesis, this or that, NFT and the world is like in climate crisis extreme, like, who cares about any of this, right? So there's an opportunity here to use this technology and all the, like, amazing aspects of it to help support what needs to really be happening outside of this, like, interest bubble. And I think that will like essentially that will make more people support it when they see that it's actually reaching out. It's not just enriching early investors, but it's actually going out to support, you know, the rest of the planet in this moment. And then I'm doing another project that's like it's kind of like a surrealist game kind of similar to loot but also similar to like board apes with the IP where I'm just creating this edition is called a preparedness. perpetual epiphany galactic travel agency and I have all these assets that people can get from their like passports to luggage the suitcase and it's basically like a choose-your-own-adventure thing but

I'm trying to give away these assets to the community so that they can then build and do something inspiring instead of just having like a profile picture from a project but it's like okay now you have like the passport and the luggage and like the boarding pass and this planet and this thing and all the artwork is like GAN based. It's all, I'm very interested in like artificial intelligence stuff. So I'm like, in that project, I'm trying to like give my creative work to the audience that they can then create something outside of me. But then on the flip side of that, I manage my grandfather's photo archive.

And I have to be like very careful to not give up his IP and find like innovative ways to make NFTs of his photographic work where I'm not selling it to someone who thinks that they have the IP. So then my brain has to totally restructure and think, okay, I have these like physical objects. Like what can I do interesting with like this physical object? You know, how can I bring this into the metaverse? So then I'm like very interested in like metaverse stuff. So there's so many ways. I think there are just so many opportunities we have outside of just putting an image. uploading a JPEG to these platforms and saying it's an NFT and putting an addition number on it. It's such an innovative time. And I've just been nerding out on file types on YouTube

because there's so many interesting file types that OpenC can't even necessarily allow you to upload. So anyway, we're just at an innovative time. I do actually want to ask about this question about taking physical world objects and making NFTs of them because obviously, you know, William here is trying to do something similar with, you know, the collection here. But how do you do that in a way where, like, for instance, G money, would you feel comfortable at this moment in time that if you bought something like that, that would be secure and, you know, that you wouldn't get rug pulled or, you know, like, if I bought a physical asset linked to an NFT? I mean, it already exists. There are, like,

people and artists that have created, like, physical works that are linked to an NFT, Bipo did his every days, right? Like there was a physical part that was linked to an NFT but they have since a lot of them have been broken apart. I think it's a really interesting case study we probably, the tech

probably needs to get a little bit better with regards to linking that physical in a tamper-proof way to the NFT but I'm really excited about it. I definitely think it's going to happen. Actually it recently happened in India. The old the royal family of

of Jeppur took some of the old pieces from the palace and then they did the NFT but they actually gave the option with different price points that you could also have the physical piece basically transported to you which you can just keep it in the storage and only have the NFT piece basically displayed or they can keep the air they can keep the physical piece there which you are so so-called like donating it for to the museum but then there will never be another an NFT or more than particular amount of NFT ever be printed of those pieces.

So, yeah. But, I mean, like, if you were to buy one and then the relationship would be broken between the physical art and the NFT, like, would that concern you? Like, do you still feel like the NFT would be valuable? I mean, for these

old pieces, which is by Ravi Rahman, which is like a big Indian painter from 16th century, they said that the original physical piece, is so-called, with this money, donated to the museum. And so the physical piece will continue to be there. And they did three NFT for one piece for that particular piece.

And you're never going to break the physical piece for sure, I hope. But yeah, and one of my friend actually bought one of those pieces. And I think the idea that before there was not even a chance for anybody to display that piece because it has always been with government of India to now somebody authentically can have it in their living room is actually exciting. I mean, also just there's so many, like when this whole Afghani crisis was happening, I wrote to a director of the museum,

I was like, hey, let's go into your archive of like Afghani jugs and like take something out of the basement that's collecting dust and make it into an NFT, whether you do a 3D scan of it or a photograph of it, and have that money go to like support people

in that country right now. Like there's just like there's just such a wealth of like, like in real life assets that can be creatively integrated into this space to like benefit people. And, you know, also creating like metaverse objects where there isn't a real physical object, but you're creating an object that can then be brought into the metaverse is also just another interesting use case. Where is this a real physical object? I did an NFD project where I had a leaf. I painted on the, a leaf and I minted that as an FTA. I said, if you buy this, I'll send you the actual physical leaf, which is going to disintegrate over time. And then you can choose to resell it and send it

or keep it. And it was this kind of conceptual experiment, like, well, what's the real art? Is the real art the fragile leaf that was painted on it? Or is it the photograph of that, which is alive on the blockchain forever? So it's just like, it's a very playful space. And that's also as an artist that I want to bring to this conversation is just that it's such a new space. And I think, you know, when my grandfather was collaborating with Dalai, it was like playful. It was just like it was about, what can we do today? You know, like, how can we wow people? And there were no rules.

It was like, rules are out the window. So I think the most innovative projects coming out of the space are like the nouns project, you know, where you're just minting something every day and it's just, you know, the auction base per day. I mean, just for me, the coders are the beetovans of the future, you know, They're the ones who are writing these codes that are so fascinating. And in the first panel, we were talking about, you know, who are the real Dalis in the space or the real Beethoven's? And it's essentially, I think, like the technologists, you know, this is like a technically

based art form. And I think that there are just some genius technologists out there. And it's a very collaborative space, too. So I think it's going to be, you know, about the team we heard. about on the second panel, the investor who only invest looking at the team. So it's just this idea of people coming together in this playful spirit. It doesn't have to just be about finance and valuable. And I think the most interesting projects are going to be the most playful and innovative. And those will become the most valuable over time because they were the most innovative.

And it wasn't just a market grab. It wasn't just some celebrity coming into the space doing something to make money. It's just somebody like saying, hey, imagine if and like to me that's like where the real magic happens in this space. But it's also status now. I don't know if you have noticed. I have friends who have ETHROC and cyberpunk and their biggest problem in life is which one to show off on the display picture. So I think there is a lot of status associated with it. Yeah, I think NMT's at heart are really about status. But okay, we're going to do a quick lightning round. We have two minutes left. What about NFTs and climate change? Is that concern any of you?

Actually, yes, but I think, I don't know how many people know, like Maroon 5, the famous band, so smartly did their NFT with a DAO for all their followers with just $5 in, who could decide that every NFT they would sell, which climate charity should that money go to? And I feel like there is so many different ways of doing Tao's, but then as you were talking about that big artists coming into the space to make money, you also have Maroon 5 doing it completely for their charity

and letting people decide which one is a good one. And I think that was so successful. They were able to move multi-million dollars within a month of their launch. I think there's also a lot of misinformation and opium around climate change, whether, you know, layer two solutions, solve that. If two is going to fix it and we're all going to go. green, actually no one has the required knowledge. I've yet to see any big VC or any big NFT company to, you know, have proper climate scientists coming into their team and

advising them and giving them proper knowledge and, you know, maybe not what to do because it's such a hard problem, but at least, you know, to back up all the shit that they're saying with, you know, a couple of actionable items or facts. I read one of my collaborators. He was brilliant. One of the VCs was saying, okay, what can we do about climate change and the NFTs? And my collaborator said it actually boils down to basic chemistry questions

that you're not answering. And no amount of money can give you the answer unless you put the work and connect with those scientists. And we have not done that. So, you know, just to try to guess things because we read it in a brochure or at the Guardian or we watched too many Gretax-Tunberg speeches. It's not fair. It's not fair for them.

It's not fair for us because we got burned at the stake as well. And it's really annoying to be part of like a harassment campaign. So I think, you know, since we have all this capital flowing, why don't we hire the people that are able to, you know, give us at least, you know, decent answers. Yeah, I love that. I also agree. There's not enough data. Go ahead. Just, you know, Elon Musk, love them or hate them, you know, all the miners moved out of China, the Bitcoin miners, and they went to Texas. And now Texas is all of a sudden talking about renewable energy because Elon Musk said, I'm not going to be into Bitcoin until it's 50% renewable. Also, El Salvador just made Bitcoin their currency, and they're doing thermodynamic volcanic energy.

So I think if anything, the crypto space is like leading, pushing the green agenda. and I think it's great, and I think more pressure should be put on it, because this is the most innovative space. I think the smartest people right now are working, whether they're like fintech defy or coders. I just think the kind of the mental energy of this time period is operating in this space. So why not make this an issue and let us solve it as like a community? We are out of time just adding one more start very quickly. Greenland Canadian green mining company is now actually delivering renewable energy-driven heating system to 1,100 properties in Vancouver out of

Bitcoin mining residual energy. Oh, interesting. Okay, good. A nice positive note for the future. Thank you all so much. This was a really wonderful panel. And we're out of time. All right.

Thank you. Thank you.