Unchained - Thanks, Forbes: Laura on How the Unchained Podcast Came to Be - Ep.230

Episode Date: April 20, 2021

In a fun change of pace, I was interviewed by the On Deck Podcaster Fellowship about the origins of Unchained pod, how my background as a journalist prepared me for podcasting, and tips for aspiring creators. Episode highlights: why I believe the Unchained podcast has been successful and how my penchant for asking tough questions came about (1:48) how my background in journalism prepared me for hosting a podcast (6:35) how I choose guests for the show and how they feel about being asked difficult questions (9:10) why I feel my background in traditional media is so important (15:46) whether my podcast helped me land a book deal (20:35) the Unchained podcast origin story (26:37) how I’ve brought my sense of journalistic integrity and ethics to podcasting (33:56) the top tips for choosing a good podcast title (41:58) advice for aspiring podcasters on sifting through BS answers and warming up shy guests (48:19) who I look up to in the podcast space (53:25) what future creators and podcasters from underrepresented backgrounds can learn from my experience breaking into the world of finance and technology (57:33)   Thank you to our sponsors: E&Y: https://ey.com/globalblockchainsummit Crypto.com: https://crypto.onelink.me/J9Lg/unchainedcardearnfeb2  Kyber Network: Dmm.exchange   Episode Links On Deck: https://www.beondeck.com/    Laura Shin: https://twitter.com/laurashin    Unchained Podcast: https://twitter.com/Unchained_pod Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Hi everyone, welcome to Unchained, your No Hype resource for all things crypto. I'm your host, Laura Shin. Follow Unchained on Twitter at Unchained underscore Pod. We can find all sorts of content ranging from my weekly newsletter to updates on my upcoming book and a whole lot more. In today's episode, we turn the tables. This recording features me as the guest. It's from a recent Q&A I did with the On Deck Podcaster fellowship about how Unchained got its start. how I use my journalism background in my interviews, and what my tips are for aspiring creators.

It was a great discussion and a fun change of pace to be a guest on the show instead of the host. Now on to the episode. Today's episode is sponsored by EY blockchain. Ernst & Young is committed to supporting integration of the world's business ecosystems on the public Ethereum blockchain. The Crypto.com app lets you buy, earn, and spend crypto all in one place. earn up to 8.5% interest on your Bitcoin and 14% interest on your stable coins, paid weekly. Download the crypto.com app and get $25 with the code Laura. The link is in the description.

Khyper's Dynamic Market Maker, DMM, is the first defy protocol designed to adapt to market conditions to optimize fees, maximize returns, and enable extremely high capital efficiency for liquidity providers. I can tell like you've been both a student of journalism and just podcasting and you approach podcasting from more of a journalism's point of view than a lot of people who are starting out now, including a few of us. So welcome to ODP. Thanks for having me. I'm super excited to be here. Awesome. So let's get started. One thing we're like super curious about is if you look at podcasting in general, crypto is probably one of the most crowded spaces. And some might say,

we've had other speakers talk about how being one of the top shows is usually just a function of being early and just consistent. But I can tell like there's just deeper decisions that you've made that have made your show one of the top ones. So take us deeper like on a broader strategic level. How have you thought about positioning and differentiating yourself? So I would say that in the beginning, I actually probably did benefit from being early. However, I wasn't the first. And I think at that time, the way that I benefited was that I had this journalistic approach, which was new at that time. And I think it's an approach that can draw in a broader audience than the existing podcast at that time could have. Because many of them were maybe like a little bit more technical or they were just sort of like a kind of like talk radio or something.

And because I had the journalistic approach, I think people felt that, that if they weren't totally new to the space, that they could kind of have a little bit more to latch on to, that it wasn't just people talking over their heads. Because, you know, if my guest said something, and it wasn't something that would be obvious, I would ask them, you know, what is it? Or I would jump in with an explanation,

and I still do that today. So I've had different audience members or fans come up to me and say, oh, you know, your show is like one that I feel like I can share with mine. friends and they can still get it because you take the time to explain. And I also would say that since then, there's just something that I do very naturally that I realized has distinguished my show. And I realized this, again, by people's comments to me, I didn't realize that this was something that I did any differently from anybody else. But after a while I began to realize that people

would talk to me about what they were calling my uncomfortable questions. or something they wouldn't say they were just tough questions or whatever. And essentially it's what it sounds like where if I'm interviewing somebody and there's some aspect of their work maybe that they may not want to talk about or that is a little bit challenging for them, I'm not afraid to ask about it. And like I said, I didn't even have an awareness maybe that I was making people uncomfortable. I wasn't even like thinking about whether or not the questions were tough. I was just thinking about what are the good questions or like what would be an interesting

conversation or what is it that what is it that people would really want to know? Like those were the kinds of questions. I was asking myself, but then I guess it led to these questions that people perceived as being uncomfortable or tough or whatever. And yeah, I mean, I don't know if anybody in the audience was like a philosophy major or anything like that, but part of my major was kind of in that realm. And when you, you know, spend hours a week in small groups, just like discussing ideas and challenging what other people say or, you know, questioning things, like, I don't know, maybe I'm just very comfortable doing that. And I think

some of my friends are too. So it's probably just not that different from how I live. But I think also, because I am a journalist, I don't have any notion that the people I'm interviewing are like my friends, or that I want to be friends with them or that I can be. Or, you know, I kind of know that my place is to be sort of like the stand-in for my audience and to just, like I said, ask what it is that they want to know. And so I think that's another reason why I became known for that. And I think that's why people really appreciate my shows. I've had so many people come up and say things like, you know, just that they feel they learn so much more from my shows because I do that or that they feel.

Yeah, because, I mean, you know, think about it. crypto, like people oftentimes, I mean, it depends on who I'm interviewing, obviously, but a lot of these people are, or can be making money from everyday people. And so it is kind of a good thing to question them and be a little bit skeptical and do that on behalf of my audience. So in that regard, I feel like that's how I've distinguished myself. Once I became aware of it, then, yeah, I understood that that was what I brought to the table. And I began to realize, oh, right, yeah, if I compare myself to the other shows, like, they don't really do that. So, you know, and so in that regard, I, you know, I do feel that's how I've been able to

differentiate myself in the space. And I think one thing that's so interesting about that is this applies across, like, interview shows or narrative shows because it's all about getting a good story. I'm curious, like, what are other experiences or principles or techniques that you've brought from your journalism background into podcasting? probably thorough research. The way that I like to describe how to create a podcast is like writing an article in reverse. And so for an article, maybe you would actually interview kind of the main actors in it

and then kind of fill in around by interviewing like other sources. But here I kind of have to do everything up front and then like perform the article at the end with the person. You know, it's like I generally go in kind of like already knowing what they're going to say at different points for various questions. And of course, you know, sometimes I ask a question and then like they answer three questions at once or, you know, whatever. Like, you know, it's not like I'm literally predicting what they're, you know, but I just mean, I have a general idea in my head of like what I wanted to look like, you know? And then of course, I mean, yeah, there are questions where maybe

I won't know what they're going to answer, but it's like one of those ones where I'm like, oh, they haven't answered this before or I haven't seen anybody asked them this before or that kind of thing. So in that regard, like I think the way that I kind of synthesize all the news. And when I say that, I don't even mean just like what it is that they're working on, but I will often also kind of zoom out and I'll like look at what else is going on in the space and how that interacts with like their world. And so I feel like that often leads to more interesting questions. So instead of just like narrowly focusing on like what they're up to like bringing in these other events that will affect them. And I think people find that interesting as well. And then the other thing is that that I also do what I call kind of like topic shows. You know, generally I'll have kind of like two different guests and they sort of discuss this topic together. And I feel like picking the right people and kind of like, you know, making sure that they kind of have slightly different viewpoints.

I mean, I don't always do this, but after a while I realize like, oh, yeah, it is a little bit better if they're kind of coming at it from different angles and then and then they, you know, I'm not trying to make it like some like throw down or, you know, I mean, if they do that great, but it's just like the more perspectives and the more that they kind of engage each, engage each other and push back at each other, I feel like the more interesting the conversation is. So that's another, another way, because, you know, obviously in journalism, you do try to get different perspectives in an article and kind of that creates a bigger picture of what's going on. And so when you're thinking about who to bring in or like who the person is, how are you sort of

either like testing or filtering for whether they're going to be the right guess who are going to have different viewpoints and actually like push back against each other or just like what we see in most panels is just like everyone just agrees and it's the same thing. So a couple of different ways it sort of depends on what is going on in my life or like how well I know the person ahead of time. But if I don't really know them at all, I will, you know, look at whatever it is that they've put out. Like it could be their tweets or their articles or their other interviews. You know, I will check out their YouTube, like whatever it might be other podcast interviews. Other times I actually want to do like pre-interviews with people, especially if I haven't heard

them talk before. But for certain things, just because, I mean, now I've, it'll be six years that I've been covering the space in the next six weeks. You know, that's like long enough where that's when I feel like, I kind of generally know for not for everything, obviously, because the space is going so fast that is like not possible to keep up everything going on right now. But for so many things, I do feel like I generally. know, like, oh, like, that's the person who is, like, really good on this topic or, like,

has that viewpoint or whatever. So, yeah, so in that regard, it's, like, mental roll the decks. Something I'm curious about, I love your articulation of why your audience likes you asking tough questions, but I'm curious why the guest likes it or how you get around the fact that there are a lot of guests that don't enjoy tough questions as much. I always think back to if you're looking at all the big clubhouse shows it exists right now, if you listen to what people are saying in the subtext of the promotion, it's that, oh, yeah, with Clubhouse, it's just friendly and it's just chill, and you're not trying to do gotcha or anything like that.

So there's currently a model for people expecting not to be pushed. So you have all this credibility, you know, you're at Forbes, you have so many podcast downloads that's obviously a valuable platform. How would you advise someone who's new and doesn't have your street cred to think about pushing and tough questions when, oftentimes they're going to fuel a credibility gap with their guests. You know, that's an interesting question. So I really think it goes back to how I didn't know that I was asking to have questions.

Like when I was asking those questions, and even now when I do, I'm not trying to put the guest on the spot. I'm not trying to make it a gacha moment. I literally just want to know. Like, I'm just curious. I just think it's a good question. I don't have an attitude about it. Like I, it's really just a genuine sense of curiosity that I have. And it kind of goes back to what I was saying about maybe how in college, like I'm just so used to having these discussions where people challenge each other's ideas and statements in a very neutral way.

And like there's no hard feelings about it afterward. It's just like, you just go back and forth and like you say something. And the person's like, well, I disagree with you because blah, blah. And then you, you point back, well, you know, you're. missing da-da-da. And then I don't know, maybe just because I'm, I'm so used to that. And I have a lot of my friends and I talk that way to each other. And frankly, I think we all think it's fun. And so maybe when I have these questions for my guests and I'm not doing it in a way where I am trying to catch them in anything or whatever. I mean, obviously now I do, now that people have said to me, oh,

those are you ask these uncomfortable questions or tough questions. Of course, now I have an awareness. But then when I do it, I just try to. to stay neutral because it's how I feel. I don't have an agenda, but I do feel like it's a good question. I do feel like generally there's somebody who probably has some kind of position of power where they should be, you know, I don't want to say held accountable because that means like they've done something wrong, but more just like when you have that position of power, like, it is, you know, something that you take on and that responsibility to answer questions where, you know, maybe you did something that wasn't, you know, totally towing the line with what your job should be or, you know, whatever.

And I feel that that just comes with that role. And I feel like a lot of those people know that that comes with that role. And so to me, it's just a moment where now they can have the opportunity to explain what happened then or whatever it might be. And it is true. sometimes people get mad. I've definitely, definitely had guests who were mad. I have had somebody who through a major tantrum that lasted over half an hour. We had to spend that time convincing the person to go on with the interview. And I kind of regret not just releasing the moment where this person was like, I'm quitting. I'm not going on for the interview. But, you know, we didn't do

that we just persuaded the person to go on because I literally had a half an hour worth more of questions to ask this person and was genuinely curious to get the answers. And so that's what I did in order to get the answers. And, you know, I've had, you know, I'm friendly with some of my sources. Like, you know, maybe we'll go like get a coffee or a lunch or whatever it might be. And one of them, when I asked a tough question during the interview, I think, was really surprised because we are friendly. And after we wrapped, said, like, you ambushed me. And, you know, that wasn't my intention. As I said, it's just, I thought it was something that probably people in the

audience would want to know. And I thought it would give this person an opportunity to explain what happened at that time. And so, you know, my advice for people who are looking to do that is let your curiosity drive you. Don't have an attitude. Try to. to be neutral. And frankly, I think the reason why people like my show is because I do put the audience first in that regard. You know, I understand that sometimes when I ask those questions, that maybe the sources won't come back to me or they won't agree. But, you know, there are many ways to do journalism. And sure, the podcast requires their participation. But in the future, if I, like, write an article or whatever, then that won't require their participation. So it's not like I cut myself from covering them

forever. You know, I just feel like in that moment, you know, my duty is to do the best job I can for my audience, which is to ask the best possible questions. And so that's just the way that I operate the show. I love that because it's sort of like you're being that audience advocate, whether the guest likes it or not. And sort of like related to that, I think currently like it's really hot on Twitter to like cut down. on gatekeepers and editors, but as someone who's been on both sides of the table, what can sort of this new breed of online creators learn from more traditional models? I mean, I really consider myself coming from the traditional model,

and I know that I'm independent, but I truly credit all the skills that I have from my traditional training. I have worked with some amazing editors who I really, really feel like I would not be as good as I am today if it weren't for them. Same with, you know, like a lot of journalists even make fun of people who go to journalism school and they say, well, it's not necessary. And yeah, okay, maybe it's not necessary. But for me, I had such a wonderful experience.

I learned so much. I had amazing professors, amazing classmates. I just really, I came away feeling like I'm definitely a better journalist now. Like, this was worth it. So I would say that actually, for me, what is a little bit challenging is that in this kind of new era, the journalist is kind of supposed to be, or not the journalist, but see, that's the other funny thing. Now that I'm not at a normal publication, at a traditional publication, sometimes I see people calling me like a podcaster

and a little bit like, oh, okay, I mean, I have a podcast, but I consider myself a journalist who you know, writes and does podcasts and videos now and, you know, just kind of works in different mediums, but the work is still the same, regardless of whatever medium it is that I'm using. And I also see that people sometimes say,

oh, she left journalism to do her podcast. And I'm like, no, no, no. I'm still doing the journalism. For me, the kind of little struggle that I have sometimes is that I feel like, because now my brand is sort of associated with me as a person, that's just a little bit weird in, and it's something that is just a little bit more

challenging for me than an advocate, because obviously, normally as a journalist, like, it's not about you. It's about, you know, the story, the source, or not the source, but the guest on your, in your show or whatever it might be. And I realize, oh, people do kind of want more of me. I literally saw a comment like that on my YouTube recently where I interviewed another journalist about the Coinbase IPO and we made it a little bit more like a conversation because it's like two business journalists talking about the Coinbase direct listing, I should have said. And somebody commented, oh, it was so nice hearing more of your perspective rather than just having you ask the questions. And I was like, oh, okay, that's interesting. Also, I feel like, you know, going back to

how I distinguish myself amongst this crowded space, some of the other people in this space, their show is more like about them or whatever and so i like a part of me is you know just a little bit like oh and you know should i go that route but then um yeah it i don't know because it's something that i'm not used to i i really like doing the work like that for me is super fun and i think the other thing that i find interesting about that kind of like new area or new line that i have to navigate is that it made me realize, because people are often asking me my opinion or whatever, and it made me realize, oh, I actually don't have that many opinions, which I know might be a surprise to people, but I think it's because I am trying to keep myself open to whichever way the

story might go. So if I dismiss something too early and before I know enough about it, then I might miss a big story. Or like, there were times in crypto where people were like, you have to do a story on how did it is a scam. And for whatever reason, at least there's one big one that I can think of. I did not have time at that time to go look into it. But people would ask me about it. But, you know, I always just felt like, because I had never looked closely at it, I couldn't have a judgment on it. Like the reporter in me would want to see, like, the data and then come to a conclusion, but just like from all the rumors flying around, I couldn't say either way. You know, I would want to look at, I wouldn't want to spend like a month researching it before I had any

conclusion. So yeah, it's like for anything that I would say, I would want to back it up. And so if I haven't done the research, then, you know, I'm probably not going to have an opinion. So, yeah, so I think that's just another way in which, you know, when you ask me, how do I take from the two sides? I'm a little bit like, like, definitely have a lot of skills from the one side, but the other, I'm like trying to figure that out right now. Laura, here's something I'm super curious about. you're writing a book right now comes out in November of this year. Good luck. I know that this is a tough process, but probably a good year to write a book and have

time to get locked down and focus. Could you talk a little bit about, because I know you always had a journalism career beforehand, so your book contract isn't fully attributable to your podcast. But that being said, podcasts drive book sales. There's actually a lot of industry interest in this. Like my podcast is like mildly successful when I've been reached out to by a publisher. Like that being said, like when I actually had the conversation, I know there are some people in ODP who are interested in this path for themselves.

I had no idea what to say. The industry standard isn't being set yet with the expectation. So can you just speak a little about a bit about like the process of your book and the context of your podcast? For me, I would say probably they're not super related. But I think what it did was it brought credibility that I know. know this space and I could deliver on what I was proposing. If I were to kind of generalize my experience into advice for people who want to use their podcast to get book deals, what I would say

is that I'm for, so I'll just say one quick thing up front, which is that, so for fiction books for like novels or whatever or short story collections, you have to write that first. You got to put the work in up front and send the completed manuscript. And unfortunately, That's the way that goes, but that's how it is done. I mean, I think if you're a first-time author, and you would use that to get an agent who would then pitch. I'm presuming people will want to do nonfiction books, and the way that that works is that you write a proposal, which is obviously a lot less work than doing the full-on book. But you have to talk about obviously what you're going to say, give like a sample table of contents and maybe even a sample chapter or two and include,

you know, who you plan interview, stuff like that. But then also you need to talk about the audience that you're and who you're going to market this to because the book proposal is really about like selling this as a product. And so this is where like for instance, your agent, whoever it is that you get will be just a godsend because they're the ones who know how publishers think about these things about selling books as products and what's going to sell. And so for me, you know, I was on the like, well, these are all the cool crypto things going on that should be in this book. But my editor, or not my agent, you know, kept kind of like asking me, okay, well, how can we think about who's going to buy this and who the audience will be?

And so I would imagine for podcasters who know who their audience is or what their interest in books is, then that would also be something that would feed into the proposal and help and help sell a book. So, you know, the more knowledge that you have about your audience, like I run surveys on my audience on my podcast very regularly actually for that reason. So that way I, not me not for this, but for multiple reasons because I'm actually, I use that. That's actually a really helpful tip, by the way, for people who want to do podcasts is to run surveys because I have used that to like introduce new features and people love them. It's like literally just whatever you can tell people are requesting.

Like, you should do that. I've been doing that. But through that, you know, I can also see like, oh, it tends to be people who work in tech and people who work in finance and, you know, a strong segment of people who already work in the industry, that that's my audience, you know, stuff like that. You can use all that data to make your book proposal stronger because you'll just have more knowledge about who it is that might write your book probably than the average book author. book proposal writer will.

So quick, quick tangent, one of the things we talk about in ODP2 is like just the importance of understanding your audience and talking to them. Can you share some of your like favorite questions when you do the service with your audience?

And also what are some of your favorite learnings that have come from them? I remember, this is just such a silly one because it seems so obvious and I'm a little bit like, duh, I didn't I think enough. But one of the questions we asked the first year, and maybe we still do, is, you know, just like, how did you hear about the show?

And I didn't have, you know, I did a search in Apple podcasts or on my podcast platform as an option. And, like, obviously, that was like a huge percentage. And I was like, oh, right. I guess I just thought, like, people would hear about it from Twitter or Reddit or, you know, whatever. But, no, they just did a search of the podcast app. So that was kind of, like, a funny one. I think, you know, what has led me to make some changes is stuff like, you know, I don't remember the exact phasing, but, you know, how can the Unchained podcast serve you better, essentially? And then it's just like a free form thing. That was how, so at the end of my short podcast, which comes out on Fridays, I do now what's called the weekly news recap where I just pick what I think are the top crypto stories of the week and then write up a little blurb for each one, kind of like a little. little news item. And then I just literally read it aloud on the show. And people requested that

in the survey. And then the next year I asked, do you like, you know, how, like you guys requested this is the format that we're using good for you. And like, yes, they love it. So that was, you know, really good. Yeah. I'm trying to think of what other questions. For people who want to look for sponsors, we did also have some demographic questions, which helps us then when we pitch our sponsors to say, like, this is who our audiences and help explain, like, why they're appealing to the sponsors. So I think that's also a good thing to ask about. Question, and we spoke about this for a second beforehand, but you had a really interesting story about how your podcast actually came about with your ownership and the way the forward

model work. This is really relevant for people here, because once again, multiple people have had questions about forming, launching a podcast where they're in. employed somewhere else and then navigating that relationship. So I'd just love to hear you recount for everyone the story there. Yeah. So when I started the podcast, what happened was I was a freelancer at Forbes at that time. And I saw that Forbes had just come out with a bunch of podcasts. And I said to my editor, hey, I want to do one. And they had launched with the season of 12. And so I became the 13th. Lucky 13. By the way, let me just say that. So, So because I was a freelancer at the time, I got the standard Forbes freelance contract,

which is an unusual contract, actually, in the media industry. So typically, when you're a freelancer for major publications, the most common contract you'll get is what's called work for hire, where the contract basically says, like, all the work that you do for us will own it, like we'll own the copyright and whatever. But the Forbes model is different where I'm sure you're aware of people can become bloggers, on the platform or a contributor where you are able to just publish your own column under the Forbes brand right on the right on the website. And so the kind of contract that those contributors

sign is not a work for hire a contract. In that contract, they own all the work that they produce and Forbes, well, so I don't know what it is now, but at the time that I signed it, it was something like Forbes wanted exclusive rights for X number of days. And then after those days, you could resell your work. And I used to resell my work, actually. So when the podcast came around, the contract that they gave me was one in which it said that I owned the copyright to the podcast. And the hilarious thing is, so I have a lawyer know who that's on my contracts.

I didn't even have a lawyer look at this contract. I just signed it. You know, I had such a good relationship with my. By the way, shout out to Matt and Jan. and I don't know if they still listen to my show, but I love my editors at Forbes. They're amazing. And I just wanted to give a moment of appreciation for them. But the point is that, yeah, I just signed it. And what happened was after the first season, Forbes didn't want to continue my show. And I then said, okay, well, I love doing this. So I'm going to continue it. I'm going to find my own

sponsors. So I found a sponsor who took on the full year of sponsorship for the year 2017. That was the year that obviously crypto took off. And by the end of the year, there were way more downloads on the show than there were at the beginning. And by that point, I was a full-time staffer at Forbes. And when I had joined there in the summer of 2017, I had said, oh, you know, if you want, you could run ads against the show, but not until after 2017, because I promised the sponsor they would have the exclusive ads on the show for the full year. well someone who was working for me at that time on the show at one point was like Laura do you realize like now with the downloads that this is how much money you could make

from the show and I had no idea and I was like oh wow okay this is more money than I make at my job and I had always wanted to write a book and I at that time had a good book idea already And so I was like, oh, this is perfect. I can quit the job and the podcast doesn't take me five days of work a week. So I can just do the pod in a couple days and then do the book the other days. And so that's what I did. So I quit. And because I owned the copyright outright, I could just take the podcast with me.

And yeah, I hired a sponsorships manager who manages all sponsorships for the show. And then I started my book for post. and the book sold in the summer slash fall of that year. That whole process takes a little while. So it wasn't just like a one and done thing. But it's sold. And then, yeah, I've been working on the book ever since along with podcasts. So, yeah, but I realize I totally left out because I'm not going to name who this person is.

But I heard through the grapevine that another journalist who started one of the, it must be one of the top. I haven't looked at the charts, but it must be one of the top. 10 shows like across the world or something, I don't know, or maybe just in its category. I'm not sure. It's definitely a very, very popular show. I heard that he later said, oh, I will never do that again where I start a show and the company owns it because I think eventually this person just had to walk away. For anybody who does start a show under the auspices of another company, I would definitely urge you if you have leverage to use it to retain your copyright. Khyber's dynamic market maker, DMM, is a game changer in DFI, being the first protocol

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or blockchain.e.y.com. So another thing I'm curious about before we jump to questions from the audience is I saw on Twitter recently that you've talked about not owning Bitcoin. And part of that is like so you can write for the publications from my understanding. I'm curious like, what do you feel sort of like along those lines? In terms of like integrity and ethics, what are other things creators should be thinking about that maybe they're not, especially people who like maybe are. young and just start a podcast and it blows up, right?

Like, they're not really thinking through these things. So can you talk a little bit about that decision and how that should apply to creators? Maybe one of the first things that comes to mind is that, so when I said that I quit Forbes and then I hired a sponsorships manager, there was a period of like, I think maybe one or two months where I didn't have that person or like six weeks or something where I didn't have that person in place. And I remember one of the first companies that reached out to put an ad. ad on the show was, and I'm just going to say this out right, because I did mention this on the show

recently. It was some kind of Bitcoin IRA. And I don't remember which company, which probably is a good thing. But anyway, what I do remember is that I was like, okay, I'll check this out. So I had a call with them. And then they informed that the way that it works was that when they had this like special vehicle or whatever that allowed you to put like actual real Bitcoin in your IRA. But then they charged a fee of 15% of the bitcoins that you were transferring into the account. And I was like, what? And I just was like, I cannot put in an ad or not. Like, I mean, I was just like, no.

And, you know, that was like at that moment, you know, probably what maybe, I don't remember how early this was. So maybe let's just say it was like one of the only offers I had from a sponsor who, wanted to like give me money to reach my audience, you know, you know, maybe if I've been desperate for money, no, but even then I wouldn't have done it. But the point is for, I mean, it just goes back to what I was saying earlier. Like, do whatever's right for your audience, you know. Don't, don't be like freaked out. Like, I'm never going to make money. I have to take it wherever I get it. No, don't do that. If you put out a good show, it will work, right? You just, you just have to, like, keep going. And yeah, you know, I had the advantage at that point of having already

had a year and a half, I guess, by then, of having built up the audience for the show and whatever. So it just wasn't matter of time. I'm sure, like, if you're starting at zero and also trying to make it work financially, then there will be pressure. But, you know, that was one of the things where, like, I mean, there was really no question for me about whether or not I was going to do it, but I could see if I had been in a different place where I was literally just starting out, then I might have been a little bit confused for a moment and been like, what should I do? So, you know, for some of the fellows, if they find themselves in that kind of position, then, as I said before, do what's best for your audience. I love that story because as we kind of talk about your recommendation is usually as good as your weakest sponsor.

So thank you for sharing that. And with that, we'll jump to questions from the audience. Hey, Laura. Just love your story. Thank you so much. I don't have a journalism degree. So for beginners like me, how would you say, how should they? they take a journalistic approach to podcasting? What does that entail? So for me, it goes back to what I

said about how I think about if I were going to write an article, how would I do that? And for me, that's trying to make it comprehensive, not in such a way that it's so comprehensive. You're kind of almost going off topic. So you should have a vision in your mind of what it was, what it is that you want to cover on the show. And then when you do your research, so here, so here's basically what I do. I read like a lot. I just try to inhale, you know, a ton of content about whatever it is. Okay. Because I know what's going on in the crypto industry quite well.

Yeah. I can spot like when I see something new. Like, oh, I haven't seen that before or, oh, you know, like you kind of recognize when you've just heard stuff over and over again or, you know. And obviously there is an element of that on the show because like I said, I don't know how beginners from my listeners are. And so there will probably be a. version of the show where I'm literally walking the guests through questions that they've answered before elsewhere just to have them speak about their story or whatever and just to give my listener the background that they need to maybe dive into the more interesting or meatier questions.

But for that part, if I see something, yeah, that I haven't seen before or that I know it's in the news a lot or that I realize is kind of like, yeah, it just makes me curious. Like, ooh, that could be a problem for them. how are they going to solve that? Then, you know, I want to make sure to cover that on the show, right? And so sometimes what I'll do is I'll create an outline where I just literally have topics like, you know, background, problem they're trying to solve. How are they going to resolve this issue or how is regulation going to affect it? Or, you know, what, like I'm making these up, but, but like from reading, you kind of see like, oh, these are all the things that could affect this.

issue that I should cover. And then, yeah, then you just try to think what are the questions that will be the most interesting. And sometimes, you know, you want multiple questions to cover that topic. And sometimes you really just need the one and then you can move on. So yeah, I, that's what I would say. And oh, and also sometimes what I'll do beforehand is I will reach out to different sources. And I'll be like, hey, I'm doing a show on da-da-da. Like, what do you think I should cover or like what do you think I should ask this person? Sometimes I even ask that on Twitter. Like if it's somebody who I feel like could get the audience very excited about the show, then I'll be like, hey, I'm interviewing like Vettelic Boutarin in a couple days. What should I ask him?

Or, you know, because, but then also because then you get the people who like spend more time on that person than you can because, or that I can because I'm trying to cover the whole crypto ecosystem, right? But then there are some people that they're like big Eath heads and they spend all their time thinking about Ethereum. And so they're just going to have like maybe a better question than I would. Right. And so, yeah,

so solicit questions. Sometimes they go in different chat groups and I'll ask people like, what do you think I should ask so and so? Or I'll just read chat groups and I'll do searches for that word. Like what are people saying about, you know, this ICO's issue with the regulator or what are people saying about that stable coin or, you know,

whatever? And I just kind of Google around like, what are people saying in the chat rooms? You know what I mean? because like, yeah, because that's a little bit more, how do I put it? Like, people don't know that they're being observed and this is what they're really thinking, that kind of thing. I love it.

No, this is perfect. It's almost like you're producing a movie. That's the analysis of yourself, like, laughing because I had that bulb in my moment in my head. Quick watch, follow up question. How do you conduct the service on your podcast? We use survey monkey, which I'm just going to flat out tell you, it's really expensive. it's like, I forget it. It's close to $400. Like every year when I have to renew that thing, I'm like, am I really paying this? I do a survey. But they have very good functionality and analytics. So I'm just like, all right.

If I'm listening, how would I get that link to that? Is it like email? So yeah, I promoted it on the show. And then they let you create a URL that's like easy to remember. So it'll be like SurveyMonkey slash, you know, Unchamed Pod 20, or something. Oh, I see. I can make up a URL that's catchy. So, yeah. And then I just put it in the show notes. Yeah. Good. Thank you.

Thanks, J.D. Alejandro, you're up next. Hi, L.A. How are you? Hi, good. How do you choose a good podcast title, a good podcast episode title? Oh, yeah. Yeah.

This is actually a really, really, really important step. So here's the deal about podcast titles. And this is something that comes from journalism, too. So if your headline or title or the subject line of your email or whatever it is isn't very good, then all the work that you put into that show, like not as many people are going to enjoy it, right? So it's just kind of like, like I remember one time I was working at this publication and I really, really, really wanted this one subject letter, a subject line for the email newsletter, which is how the vast majority of the audience got our content.

But for some reason, one of the less popular headlines was the one that was put on the subject line. And I was so, so, so upset because there was like a really, really good article in there. And I was like, nobody's going to open this email. And we like put so much effort in this article. And it just was like, and it's a good article. And it was like, and it just was this feeling of like, wow, we put all this effort into this thing. and it's just like a lot of it was wasted, you know? So yes, it's very important.

So what I do is I actually use this online tool. And it's, you can use it for free. They now suddenly in the last like week or two have a paid version of it. I haven't done the upgrade because it's kind of expensive. It's called something like co-schedule.com headline analyzer. And it will literally like give you a score for the headlines. which I know sounds silly, but through that, yeah, you can kind of see like, oh, these, these headlines are just like maybe a little bit easier to grasp. And even actually just

from running your headlines through the test, I feel like it just makes you, it just helps you learn better, like what works. I do see that some other people, because the other thing that you could do, which I sometimes have done is I have a big guest and it's just like, I know my audience is going to like want to hear that guest and I know they're going to be like excited if they see we discuss these different topics. And so sometimes people just put like, you know, big headline name, colon, topic everybody's talking about, like topic everybody's talking about, you know, that kind of thing. I tend to do a little bit less of that now. But those are kind of some of the strategies I've seen. If you do have a big name, it's very, very good to put that

obviously in the headline and definitely up front is even better. So, you know, big name, colon, blah, blah. If I do that, sometimes I'll put like a little quote of something kind of juicy that they said if it's short enough because you don't want to make the headline too long either. If you make it too long, then, you know, it gets cut off in Google SEO and you know, whatever. So it needs to be like short. But that's like another way. And then numbers can also do well. like I recently did a show about personal finance and crypto, which I thought was super interesting. And I actually was excited because I used to cover personal finance. I was like, this is still in my wheelhouse.

And I kind of like was excited because I, you know, just felt like, oh, like I can ask all these questions about these things that I used to, you know, interview people about in the past. And crypto, which was just fun. But, you know, I'm all aware that the average person like financial advisor, like, I'm not going to click on that. So I threw in the headline that financial advisors control $5 trillion of investor wealth because it's just like, hey, heads up. Listen, you know, pay attention.

This is a big topic. Like, you know, if we get this crowd on board into crypto, then they could get a lot of money into crypto. And so, you know, things like, like, like just think of things in that way. You know, those guests, their names would be recognized. to my audience. So I didn't put their names, you know. I had just kind of like a catchy, catchy headline that had that big numbers to make people be like, hey, you know, this sounds important and interesting. Sometimes if you have the space, like I notice that the New York Times is doing this a lot where they have a headline that's like a two-part headline where

it starts with something and there's like a punchline. So if you just go right on there, homepage right now, I bet you will see multiple examples of this. Like, I can't really think of one off the top of my head, but like, you know, maybe it poses a question. And then the answer that they have is like something that you wouldn't expect or, you know, I don't know if I've been able to do that on my show, but, you know, I just noticed that for me it's effective that I was a reader of the newer time. So I'm like, oh yeah, I want to click on that. So yeah, those are some of my tips. And actually, one last, thing I'll say is in terms of numbers, and I know this from like other work that I've done, people love things. Like if you were doing a show that's kind of like tips for people, people love the kind of thing where it's like the number one reason why blah, blah, blah, or the number one tip to do da-da, or it can be the top 10, you know, ways to blah, blah, blah, whatever it is. But like smaller numbers like that can do well. So yeah, or the number like seven, And like people love the number seven.

Okay. Thank you so much, Laura. Thank you so much, Alejandro and Laura. That was super helpful. Yeah, you're up next. I love what you said about number seven. That's very interesting. I just have a question on how, I mean, I'm sure you've interviewed a lot of people.

And how can you tell if someone is lying or not being genuine with their responses? Are there things that if people are not journalists here, how can you tell if someone's lying? for not giving the most authentic answer that you want for your show. That's interesting. So I think it depends on, well, can I ask what kind of show you have? Oh, sorry. My show is about relationships, but I'm just wondering if someone is like giving you a BS answer. And you can't call them out that way and be rude, but you want to push.

So you're literally just asking me for my show. Oh, okay. In general, like, I think people tend to say things and then it's not the right answer right away. It's like a PR answer or a polite answer. And you want to get the good answer, the media answer. Okay. So that guest that didn't want to continue on with the show that one time, there was like a technical aspect to what they were building.

and I asked them about it. And they were describing it with this term that is kind of like a buzzword now in the tech world, right? Like it's kind of like where the future of tech is going. But then when I asked them to describe the mechanics of it, it didn't fit that description of what that technology is. And so I was saying, well, how is that a blah, blah, blah, hot buzzword thing? Because what you're describing is that that's not. it. And so I was just like kind of pointing it out factually that the description and the term that he was using to describe it were not the same. And so I think you can do that. Like you can

kind of like stick to facts and just point out when something that they're saying is like a marketing buzzword that they've used, but that the facts don't match that. For other things, I don't know if I've had people who've lied necessarily. I have had instances. I have had instances. where sometimes people are in a dispute and I ask them about it and then they say something about the other side. I typically try to reach out to the other side and just get a response and like insert that into the show. There is one time that I forgot to do that and then we had to do that later. So obviously that was, you know, not my favorite moment of the podcast. I would say listen intently. And in that moment when you feel what,

it is that they're doing. If you are listening closely enough, then a question will naturally come to you that you can use to either call them out on it and ask them to be real with you. Or like if it's, like I was saying, a situation where, you know, the facts didn't support what he was saying, then just point out, hey, the facts are X and what you're saying is Y and, you know, they don't match. Yeah, I think it really depends on what type of show you're doing, actually. It's very helpful. Okay. I mean, talking to another journalist. And she was saying that sometimes people on Twitter are in the digital world. They're really good online.

But when you get them as a guest, it's like you're trying to squeeze like a dry, like, I don't know, tea towel or something out of it. And do you have anything that you do to warm them up? Because I know I hear people say like, say more, tell more. If they're good on Twitter but not good on the show. So I, like I said, you know, we'll Google their name on YouTube and other podcasts if I haven't heard them speak before. But even if I find that in the other interviews I listen to that, they're kind of like reticent or if I've done a pre-interview with them and I notice that they're that way, that way, I literally just write like way way like way more questions. So let's say that for a normal show, I might have like one question for this one topic and that's enough to like launch somebody. into the whole topic. What I'll do is I'll write like five questions that are grouped together

where it's like, okay, if they stop, then I have a second one on that just approaches that from a different ankle. You know, so it's like, you know, not only like how did you do da-da-da, but also why and when and who was involved and like, you know, just or whatever. Like I'm kind of making up like how, how big was it? How many da-da-da? How, you know, who did this or that? Like, Like I'll literally just try to kind of like fill in what they might say and then make a question around it. But yeah, the truth is it actually is better if you can just find guests who are good talkers. Here's the deal. I'm sure everybody will already know this.

But the people who work at the most important companies and have the most important positions, they're going to be the most reticent. But they're also going to be the big fish names that you want to catch, right? So yeah, just have like way more questions for them. Because you kind of know going in that they're going to be as tight-lipped as they can be. Well, not all of them, but it depends on what company they have and what their position is, but many of them will be. And so, you know, that just requires in a way even more research sometimes because sometimes

then you'll want to be like very specific about like, you know, what you're asking them about. Like you might want to have numbers. You might want to have like incidents of like, hey, when this happened, can you tell me blah, blah, blah. Like, you know, if you want to have the big names, then sometimes that's, that's the best way go. I think it's really good and enlightening. But the last question I have is that you list a lot of questions, and that's part of the curiosity that you're mentioning in the beginning of this session.

Are there other people that you find have that same curiosity that you have? Are there people that you look up to in terms of their curiosity that you've kind of emulated? Oh, that I've emulated for my show? Yeah, like other journalists or, for example, like I like looking at Amunpur because she does a documentary in relationships. So her questions are fantastic. For yourself, do you look at other journalists or writers or? Okay, so for writers, for sure. Like, literally for my book, I took my favorite book and I analyzed it. Like I wrote in the margins, how did this person do this?

And then I tried to like use some of that for my book. For the podcast, it's been a little bit different. I would say that a journalist I really admire and whose show is similar to mine. And yet I wouldn't say that I emulate her is Kara Swisher's show. I don't know if any of you listen to Recode, Decode. Even though I wouldn't say that I'm kind of modeling myself against her, I learn a lot from listening to her. It's just funny that I'm bringing this up because she's so different from me in her style. Like she states her opinions. She has opinions. That's like one big difference. She has opinions and she states

them. And then another thing is she interrupts her. She will interrupt them a lot more than I do. That's another thing. For whatever reason, I try to do that a little bit less. But I do see that it's actually quite good the way she does it because she's like me. And that she, I think she also goes into the interview, what topic she wants to cover and she has a vision of like how this is going to go in her head. So I can tell that sometimes what she'll do is she'll ask a question and then the person like basically answers it and she can see that they're just going to like wax on about it but but it's just like going to be more of the same. So she'll just cut them off and like move on to the next topic. And a part of me is like, oh, I like I kind of wish I could do a little bit more of that.

And I do in a way, but you know, I feel like she's she's just like much faster. Oh, another person who's very good at that is Peter Kafka who actually works for the same. same company. He does a journalist. It's like a media business show, but he does the same exact thing. He cuts them off, moves on to the next topic. He's, so here's the funny thing. And I don't know how much sexism plays into this, but if you look at the reviews on her show, people constantly complain that Kara interrupts her guests. Okay, Peter Kafka literally does the same exact thing, probably to the same amount. And I checked out these reviews one time. The only mention of interruption was somebody being like,

Kara Swisher should take a lesson from Peter Coff because she interrupts her guest way too much and Peter doesn't. And I was like, wait, have you listened to their shows? Like they both do it. But somehow the way Peter does it, it like just seems smoother maybe, but also I think the fact that there is a woman, I don't know. The other person that I would say,

I probably model myself after a little bit, even though, again, I don't, so Kara's show I actually listen to regularly. Terry Gross, I actually don't listen to that regularly, but I've heard her talk about her method. And when I heard her talk about, I was like, oh, it's so similar to mine. Like, she just kind of like reads voraciously and is like inhaling all this information and then just tries to be like, okay, how should this look? And so when I heard her talking about how she repairs, I was like, oh, that's so similar

to what I do. But yeah, there are other interviewers that I really like, but we just have different kinds of shows. So, like, for instance, you know, Tim Ferriss, he's doing like tips and he wants her personal stories and he's like friendly with them. And, you know, it's just a different kind of thing. Like, I, unfortunately, my show isn't like that. I love his show, but, you know, I'm not going to have that kind of relationship for the people that I interview.

So, but yeah, that's what I would say. Thank you so much. That was so helpful. Awesome. Thanks. We touch it. I'm going to toss it back over to you. So since you mentioned the sort of difference in reviews for Kara and Peter, I think we would be remiss if we don't ask this, which is like, if you look at like, both like crypto and

podcasting, there's such, like, heavily, like, male-dominated spaces. As someone who's, like, operated in both areas and, like, really, like, risen to the top levels, what can nascent podcasters from sort of, like, underrepresented backgrounds, like, learn from your experience? Oh, gosh. That's a good question. Here's why I'm a little bit stumped from the outset, but let me just get started talking. I feel like the fact that I started having that platform at Forbes already kind of meant that I already had like a little bit of a following like I already had people who were into my articles and so in that regard it was a little bit like they they already were interested in me for that reason and so maybe the fact that I was a woman in in a field that's

male dominated and like mattered less because I'd already proven myself as a writer like I knew even back then that there were some people who already felt like I was the best journalist in the space. And like actually, I'd won an award now that I think like I remember, yeah, within like nine months after I started covering this, there was some kind of like blockchain journalist award or whatever. And I remember, I couldn't believe that I was even nominated because I was like, I haven't even been covering this for a year. And like there are these journalists who've been covering it for years. And then I actually won. And then I was like, oh my God, like, whoa, like people like my work. And so again, you know, later when I started the podcast, then it felt like they already knew that I did good stuff.

And so the fact that maybe some of them might have been surprised that I was a woman, like that wasn't a factor anymore because I'd already kind of proven myself. So for people maybe who don't start that way, I actually feel like it really just comes down to doing good work. You know, it's like, because let me put it this way. the way that I'd proven myself with the articles, Forbes at that time had pictures of all the writers on the pages. So even back then, like, they knew that I was a woman and that I was writing about it. But despite, you know, maybe being a minority in that regard, like, you know, it didn't matter. They still, because the work was good, like, they ended up following me. And so honestly, I would say have fun with what you're doing.

Like, follow your curiosity. And then that will make your product good. And that's really, really so important. Like, like, even that question before about, like, who I admire. Remember, I said, well, I actually, I don't even like, I admire them, but I don't want to my show after them. So it's really just about, like, maybe having your own vision and having your own voice and just believing in yourself. And I feel like, yeah, that that's, that's a huge part to making your show good. Yeah, it's a calm of like being so good that they can't ignore you and just also being yourself.

Exactly. Yeah. Awesome. Because you can tell if you're not being yourself. Awesome. I think this is the perfect place to end. Thank you so much for just sort of like bringing such a different viewpoint to everything we've had so far. And then since we're publishing on both sides, any last closing words from your side?

No, I guess, you know, I just hope that it's been helpful for all the podcast fellows. And I'm really honored that you asked me to share my thoughts. Awesome. Yeah, no, it has. And thank you again so much for coming to ODP. And with that, thank you all. Thanks so much for joining us today. To learn more about the On Deck Podcast or Fellowship, check out the show notes.

This episode of Unchained is produced by me, Laura Shin, with help from Anthony Yun, Daniel Nuss, Mark Murdoch, and the On Deck Podcaster Fellowship. Thanks for listening.