Unchained - The Chopping Block: Pump, Perps, and Policy: Crypto’s Multi-Front Bull Market - Ep. 870

Episode Date: July 17, 2025

Welcome to The Chopping Block – where crypto insiders Haseeb Qureshi, Tom Schmidt, Tarun Chitra, and Robert Leshner chop it up about the latest in crypto. In this episode, the crew breaks down the return of the ICO — but with a twist. Pump.fun’s $500 million token sale sells out in 12 minutes, sparking a heated debate about forward markets, new market structure design, and whether we’ve entered a smarter, more institutionalized fundraising era—or just rebranded 2017 chaos. Hyperliquid becomes the surprise king of pre-launch liquidity, exchanges buckle under demand, and a new class of crypto treasury vehicles raises eyebrows (and capital). Meanwhile, Trump declares “Crypto Week” as Congress moves forward with the most sweeping legislation the industry’s seen in years. Is crypto finally growing up—or just getting better at dumping on retail? The gang dissects the narratives, the numbers, and the fallout. Listen to the episode on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Pods, Fountain, Podcast Addict, Pocket Casts, Amazon Music, or on your favorite podcast platform. Show highlights 🔹 Pump.fun’s ICO Raises $500M in 12 Minutes – The largest token sale in recent memory, with 25,000+ KYC’d participants and CEX/DEX syndication. 🔹 Forward Markets & Hedging Games – Kraken and Bybit face issues as sophisticated traders attempt to arb between ICO allocations and perps. 🔹 New Market Design – Pump introduces a novel multi-venue, API-synced launch structure; future ICOs may follow suit. 🔹 CT Has Negative Alpha – Crypto Twitter sentiment was wildly bearish… right before the most oversubscribed sale in years. 🔹 Hyperliquid Hits $11.5B OI – Becomes the dominant venue for pump trading, eclipsing even CEXs; pre-launch volume milestone. 🔹 Treasury Vehicle Controversy – $888M raised for hype via a new structure; Tarun questions whether it’s a liquidity gateway or retail dump machine. 🔹 Trump Declares Crypto Week – Genius Act (stablecoins), Clarity Act (market structure), and Anti-CBDC Act all hit the House floor. 🔹 Polymarket Vindicated – DOJ and CFTC drop their probe into Shane Coplan’s prediction market platform. 🔹 Altcoin Momentum Returns – $PENGU +270%, $SUI +60%, $UNI +43%; narrative shifts from “revenue meta” to “meme meta.” 🔹 Solana vs. Hyperliquid – Hype replaces SOL as the go-to high-beta asset? The team debates competing ecosystems. ⭐️Haseeb Qureshi, Managing Partner at Dragonfly ⭐️Robert Leshner, CEO & Co-founder of Superstate⭐️Tarun Chitra, Managing Partner at Robot Ventures⭐️Tom Schmidt, General Partner at Dragonfly  Timestamps 00:00 Intro 01:18 Pump ICO Breakdown 06:54 Pump's Unique Market Design 10:57 Future of ICOs and Market Trends 21:36 Hyperliquid's Role in Pump Launch 32:26 Crypto Week and Legislative Updates 41:23 Polymarket Investigation Dropped 47:29 Altcoin Rally and Market Sentiment Disclosures Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Maybe I'm just too cynical. Yeah. Tarun is the jaded member of our podcast. I think it's, you know, the problem with you, Tarun, is at the moment things are going well for you, you start reflexively finding things to be sad about. Not a dividend. It's a tale of two pawn. Now, your losses are on someone else's balance.

Generally speaking, air drops are kind of pointless anyways. I'm into trading firms who are very involved. I like that eat is the ultimate problem. D5 protocols are the antidote to this problem. Hello, everybody. Welcome to the chopping block. Every couple weeks, the four of us get together and give the industry insider perspective on the crypto topics of the day. So Kukintra is first to go, Tom, the D-Fi Maven and Master of Memes. Hello, everyone. Next to you got Robert, the crypto connoisseur and czar of super state. Aloha. Next, you've got Tarun, the gigabrain, and grand poohbaugh at Gondlet. Yo. And finally, I'm a sieve the head hype man at Dragonfly. We're early-stage investors in crypto, but I want to caveat that nothing we say here is investment advice, legal advice, or even life advice. Please see Chopin Block. for more disclosures. So it looks like we are back into a bull market. We have Bitcoin hitting all-time highs. We have alt-rallying. And on top of all of that, we have one of the largest

ICOs in history, just having taken place in the last week, that ICU, of course, being pumped. So let's talk about it. We've talked about Pump many times on the show. It is the largest meme corn launch pad in existence. And it recently launched its token. Now, its token, as of today, is trading on the order of about $6 billion fully diluted. But it raised an ICO at a $4 billion fully diluted valuation. This ICO was split in some amount of private sale or some public sale. There was about $500 million that was raised from the public sale. And it was spread across six different venues that were centralized exchanges

that were offering some inventory of the token that they were selling, plus some that you could buy directly on chain from pump. What ended up happening was that there was three days during which you could buy, this ICO at a fixed price. And this ICO sold out in 12 minutes. It was a absolutely insane rush of capital. Multiple exchanges were oversubscribed to the point where apparently they sort of messed up and sold more inventory than they actually had. So both Cracken and ByBit ended up having all sorts of issues with people seemingly thinking that they were approved when they were not. And as a result, they had to do something or other to make people whole.

It was kind of a mess. So this seems to have been the biggest ICO we've seen in ages. And it was oversubscribed both on the institutional side as well as on the retail side. We've seen, I guess, about a 25% to 50% pop on the assets that has now started trading. So it looks like, you know, everybody who bought the ICO is in the money. There were about 25,000 accounts that KYC'd on chain. Everybody who bought this was KYC'd. and the U.S. and EU were excluded.

I was sorry, U.S. and U.K. were excluded. So this kind of a crazy moment, it seems to have indicated that we've entered into a different era than where we were sitting before. What's also interesting was that the sentiment toward Pump.com. Fund when they announced this ICO was very negative. Almost everything I saw on Twitter was like, you know, lambassing the team for, oh, you guys are... Yeah, they're saying a billion dollars. Yeah, exactly, exactly. And yet, this thing was crazy oversubscribed, the amount of demand.

clearly much, much more than they were anticipating to say nothing of the centralized exchanges. I'm to be fair, since 2022, I feel like crypto-twitter is like often anti-correlated with on-chain usage, like in practice. It's like, it's like, it hasn't really been a good signal for like four years. So is crypto Twitter like sort of the Kramer of this industry?

It sort of feels like it because like everything that has happened that has been amazing this year in terms of porn, like Circle IPO. like nonstop everyone's shitting on it like on crypto Twitter but then you know I'm in when I go out in New York and talk to some tradfai people they're just like are you are you guys aping into this IPO and I'm like wow this is just like a completely different universe were the tradfai people aping into the IPO I see I I no no not that into circle oh circle yeah yeah yeah like like I was a little different because like they were trying to raise money in private markets

CT has no alpha, if anything has negative alpha and like some beta, like it's beta is just Bitcoin chilling and there's a little bit of negative alpha nowadays. Well, there's a lot of hyperliquid. I mean, that's like the one consensus CT trade, which has worked. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, that's fair. Although I kind of feel like, yeah, it's hard to dispute that one. But I feel like the other ones have been like really bad. The thing is everyone's so polemic on CT.

It's like it's either like a thousand X. or zero, right? Like, and like, I feel like people were a little more metered before. I mean, I think that's how you get engagement, right? You want a plenical tweet. I think, um, I think it's more so since

since Elon took over Twitter, I feel like it's like bifurcated more. I think this is like back in the day. This is bullshit. It's always been like this. I, I, I'm a Navy. Totally objected the story. Yeah, but ultimately, I think you, you look at the markets, right?

And like the prelaunch markets for Pump actually got it basically right. It was trading like a little north of five. I was going to bring that up. Yeah. You know, it's like, yeah, yapping is cheap, but people, you know, put their money in where their mouth is and was priced pretty accurately. Well, I actually think that the forward markets land to a lot of demand. So I have a few friends that were monitoring those forward markets pretty aggressively as it was trading around 0.05 or whatever. They were like, okay, like I think the product, there's enough liquidity, there's enough density here. I think this is going to work, you know, to invest in the ICO, hedge in the forward market.

And a lot of people, I think, started like actually putting real flow into that sort of arbitrage where they were preparing to buy it 0.004 and sell at 0.05. And I think that led to a lot of confidence in the ICU itself. There was a lot of people were like, oh, I'm in for a million. And I think some of the tickets that we saw were. The median was extremely high because I think it was a lot of very sophisticated people, many of which were hedged. But, I mean, if you were hedging any real portion of that 500 million,

million, like this thing would have just traded down, right, if so many people were hedging. So clearly most people didn't hedge. I don't have the data, but supposedly the volumes in these, like, forward markets were really quite robust. They were, they were. But I believe that they were, like, net long. Which is cool. That means there's a lot of demand, yeah, from people.

And it was also, right, right, right. Exactly. Yeah, exactly, exactly. So, like, my point is that there were certainly some people who were hedging. And I also heard that there were many people who thought that they had gone. got some through Crackin or through Bybit or through one of these other venues and basically were naked shorting because they never got filled. So there was all sorts of shenanigans that were going on.

And apparently, so it was a part of the story here was that, so this was kind of an innovation in market design because Pomp is the first one of ever seen do this where they syndicate out a sale to multiple other exchanges. But even during the ICO bubble, when all these ICOs were happening back in 2017, 2018, the ICOs were just happening straight up on chain, right? You go to some website and you register into the ICO. Or famously single centralized venues, right? Like, finance grew off the Tron ICO, right?

That was like the big thing that they were like around. Right, right. So it wasn't this like multi-value thing. Yeah, that's definitely new. That's like market-driven NBBO in some weird way. Uh, kind of. It sort of, it feels like that, right? It's like, oh, like you can use all venues and they all have to price synchronize.

Yeah, well, they're distributors, right? Because they're selling at a fixed price. So it's like, they have to sell at some price that you set as the ICO deliverer. And you can imagine worlds where you don't do that, where you have like some kind of auctions or something for each batch of inventory. But my understanding of the way that this worked was that, so the pump team, they were themselves very uncertain about how much demand there was going to be. And they set this whole thing in a motion like more than a month before the ICU actually happened. And of course, at that time, the market was in the doldrums, right? Like, they ended up actually ICOing when Bitcoin hit all-time highs and all to rallying and all this great stuff was happening in the market. But at the time that they were originally contemplating the sale, market kind of sucked. So in that environment, they were basically planning for the worst. They were like, look, what do we do if this thing doesn't sell out? And they found that there was, I mean, that's why the thing was three days, right? It was three days long because, you know, despite the fact it's sold out in 12 minutes, they didn't know there was no way to really test demand. Like, they can't really do a roadshow

with retail, right? It doesn't really work that way. So they floated this institutions. What do you mean? This was a road show. It was the same price. This was a road show. All the venues shilled to their customers for a week. That's true. It's kind of a road show. It's kind of a road show. Here's the thing. Here's a thing. 450 million

of the 500 million was sold directly through pump. Meaning that all the other inventory was like 10% I was making a tongue-in-cheek joke that like if you're doing securities like issuances via an app, You will probably just, your roadshow is just like notifications in the app. Your roadshow isn't like going and selling people in suits.

Right. There was no webinars. There's no webinar. Sure. Sure. Yes. True. I mean, they did release that, that crazy video. I don't know if you guys saw that.

I think it got like several million views. So it was, they did, I don't know if I call it a webinar, but they did a video. And the interesting thing was that, yes. So the way that this thing was structured was that there were these six venues. plus you could buy direct on Pomp. And each of these venues had a cut and they had some amount of inventory that they were authorized to sell.

And Pomp had an API that was sitting behind all of this that if you, you weren't guaranteed this inventory, you had to hit the API and basically get a yay or nay that you were good to fulfill this order. And because everything moved so fast,

basically this API fell over the moment that the ICO started. And because this API fell over, nobody knew whether or not they were getting filled. They were kind of like, okay, we've been told that we have 20 million or 30 million or 50 million or whatever of inventory to sell. And we've got to respond something to that. We thought we would get a response within like a few hundred milliseconds.

But instead, this thing is just, you know, 404ing or whatever. So they, so some platforms just basically said, sorry, we didn't, nobody got anything. And then some like Cracken basically said, oh, shit, we thought we thought we were good. And turns out we weren't allowed to sell you anything. And so we have to go and like figure out how to fix a snafu on the back end. So this, I imagine whoever does this next is going to fix a lot of these issues with this market structure. But my guess is that this is not the last time we see this. Because these exchanges have now built out this infra.

You know, this structure of like you have these resellers of an ICO, this is not going away. I think the interesting thing to me is the CT narrative of like, oh, no one is going to list or pay listing fees on Centralized exchanges over again. I obviously, I think that's not going to be true. But I... Why are they saying this? Because there was no... You have them sell the token. They're listing the token.

Oh, but they didn't get Binance or Coinbase or up-it. Yeah, yeah. There was no listing. You could tell from like how the choices of quality exchanges. Yeah. Was that like it was like no listing fee thing. But I heard of a lot of people signing up on those exchanges for this ICO. Probably to buy on chain.

Totally to buy on chain. It's like a marketing thing. It's like a marketing. It's like a marketing. It's like having the new hottest list. It's like, yeah, you want access on your preferred venue. Well, I think this idea of like, I'm a successful app ICOing versus like I'm just ICOing for some future network is like that to me is a big change in a way that probably

is healthier, to be honest. Obviously, I think like inevitably like all things in crypto, it always starts from something with usage and then drifts to things that don't have usage toward the end of the cycle. But like I think about the like, you know, unislawful. AirDrop era of like that being like the you know a thing that was used distributing right like pump feels a little closer to that than it does to like you know I'm I'm gonna get pilloried by by East people for saying that but it's closer to that than like the like 2017 fund my L1 and an ETH wallet oh by the way it's a multi-sig with two signers type of thing right like I do think

it's better than that. That's all I'm trying to say. Maybe, please don't pillory me for that. It's, it's definitely better than that. I just don't know if either is ideal. Well, I mean, the thing about pump is, I mean, pump is also very unique in this. So, like, the fact that they were able to get 90% of the capital in 12 minutes direct to pump, right? So not through any of these distribution partners. To me, obviously, they could have failed the whole 500 million if they, if they so chose. And again, they probably vastly under sort of valued themselves because my understanding is that originally

they were planning to sell a lot less to institutions and they ended up selling more to institutions because they weren't sure that the retail demand was going to show up in their, and the retail, or sorry, institutions got the same terms as retail. So they were all, you know,

four cents or whatever, for whatever, fractions of a cent or whatever it is, all unlocked from day one. Probably a lot of those people could not have bought immediately. And so there was maybe, some like, okay, this demand is demand we can't get otherwise. So maybe there's some rationale there from their end. But I have to imagine that, again, Pomp is so well known in crypto. It's

probably the number one most known app in this industry, period. So their ability to get all this demand directly through the front door is probably also not going to be replicated, right? So I imagine whoever ICO is next will actually depend more on those distribution partners of like the exchanges signed the ISO. Seab is betting against EOS 2.0. That's what I'm seeing. That's what I'm hearing here. Listen, it's easy to bet against that because that was like so outrageously large, right? Like at that time, there was how many L-1s that were even vaguely credible?

Well, all the L-1s were raising in ICOs. True. Well, EOS was also, remember, like, there was all these theories about EOS recycling their own ICO proceeds into the ICO to inflate the number. So who knows what that really was? This, we know for sure, like, this is real. This is Colehard Cash on Chain. Well, I just think there's also so much more cash on chain now.

that like that is very true i'm just like how would there not be an eos 2.0 like it seems like it's inevitable all right if you're listening launch an l1 through an icel no no no no that's not financial advice as we've disclaimed on not or life advice or life advice uh but the yeah so it's like the the thing about pump as well is that it's a it's a working product it's like a well-known beloved product to many people in the i guess not maybe less beloved these days but you know whatever it's a well-known product. So that does feel a lot healthier than the, you know, the terrors of the ICO bubble. But like the, I guess the thing is there aren't that many, like the reason why I'm of two minds about whether this is like, okay, the beginning of a new trend of these things

coming is that I just don't know that there are that many pre-launched tokens that are to go around. That sucks. I mean, there's a lot of pre-launch tokens at tiny sizes, but like the pump brand and the pump user base and the pump gravitas. Yeah, there's very few things that are launching that late in their maturity lifecycle. There's actually many things like pump, though, that could do this in the sense of like bonk axiom. Well, Bons already have a token. Yeah, I mean, the Bunk has a token. You're telling me that you're telling me that's to stop at one. Yeah. I mean, there's also orders of magnitude. smaller right there's a bunch of thoughts and interfaces that do have their own tokens that no one

really cares about anymore i think axioms actually quite big like i could totally see them do no i mean right now would they not like axiom is is you know the enth interface i think uh yeah i i guess my point is more that like now that there's fervor why would the second and third place is not just immediately go kind of do this right it like it reminds me in that way the icio boom had this right where it was like each time there's an ICO that was like over subscribed and you're like, why the fuck are they able to ICO? I'm going to ICO. Like there was like this like this like mentality, this like PVP like founder mentality. And the funniest thing is like the ICOs in the earliest part of the ICU boom are the ones that kind of survived like the the Nosis Lend, etc. Whereas the ones at the end it's like depends on how you

define survival. I'm not sure that they survive. Well, the other thing, too, we were talking earlier in the year about, oh, this new Echo and Sonar, you know, Kobe's platforms defining the meta of community fundraising. That now suddenly seems old hat where, you know, we were talking about like, wow, they raised $20 million, $15 million. We just saw $500 million fundraise. And the exchanges were all oversubbed for just like, you know, $50 million. Fundamentally, the pump one had a way to do non-KYC accredited investor raising, right?

Like, how are you? No, no, no, it was all KYC. But not accredited, like, with Echo, you do actually have to be accredited, right? KYC and accreditation. Yeah, I don't think you need accreditation of a pump. No, I don't think you need accreditation. You need to be non-U.S., non-UK. And then, like, for, but I believe for Kobe's platform, you also don't need to be accredited in many jurisdictions.

Yeah, I think that's true. A U.S. thing. Yeah. So, I mean, I think ultimately, it's just like a size. thing, right? Like doing Echo, doing Sonar, that's like doing like a seed round or like an A and that's kind of, I mean, it's, I mean, sometimes it's the same terms of those rounds, right? Like, Pump is almost like an ITO in terms of amount raised maturity of the product. Yeah.

And like, so it's just categorically very different. And I mean, that's off to the team, pulled that off very well. I mean, kind of a huge moment for need to treat. But I do maybe you have some nostalgia for kind of ICOs in some ways where like the whole idea, right, is it's a new way to do capital formation. And it's like crowdfunding, anyone can buy in, anyone can credit you a vehicle for raising funds. This feels like, you know, I don't know what you're underwriting pumped to, but it feels like, okay, this is like an IPO in that so many of the gains have already been had.

And this is more like a large mature asset. Yeah, I mean, the thing that strikes me different than the first ICO wave, etc., is in the original wave, ICOs always came before the thing was ready, where the thing was functional, or the thing had a brand associated with it. This is almost like a late-stage liquidity, private equity like thing,

where it's like, okay, it's already massive, right? All the ICOs back that they came before they built it. Like the Ethereum of the ICO is long before the Ethereum existed. All the L-1s was raising the capital to build. But if you look at the EOS, yeah, but you look at the EOS ICO, like it was not priced as, though it was like a seed round, right? Like, I mean, they raise a billion dollars.

If you remember, the Tron ICO also huge. I know, but that was venture-backed. Yeah, of the two of them, one of them actually delivered. And it's not the one that people loved saying at that time. I know, it's true. No, absolutely. I mean, the returns in the end were good over a long enough time horizon, right? But like, you have to remember at the time, it did not feel like, oh, well, these are

these humble little seed rounds that people are raising from friends and family. Like, the sense of the time was that these are basically growth stage rounds. for things that are pre-product. And that was a function of demand as well. Like the Ethereum of ICO was like this big in comparison. It was tiny. And when EOS came around, when Pocodot came around, when all those like L-1s of the era came around and we're doing ICOs,

the amount of demand was like so much larger in like multiple orders of magnitude that like it made sense. Yeah. The thing that I actually quite like about pump, and I think that in a way portends well for this. meta evolving in a relatively mature way is the fact that pump, like the post-ICO pop was pretty mild, right? So like it was up 25% after day one. Now it's up 50%, but markets all, you know, on the whole is rallying that that's how booing the asset. And that's like a healthy pop.

It's not crazy. You know, people didn't make a 10x. They didn't make a 5x. I'm like, oh my God, I got to do it. You know, if I miss this one, if I don't do the next one, I'm going to be poor. So there's, there's not this massive sense of fomo around people who didn't get into the pump. But they got rewarded for getting in and like doing that. I mean, the fact that it sold out in 12 minutes is bad. Like, clearly the fact that it was three days long means that the, like, they sort of underestimated demand and they didn't, like, mechanically, you do not want to create these rush to the entrance type mechanics because it just means more people are going to be fumbling over themselves and creating bots and syndicates and all this other stuff. Like, it just makes everything

way more complex and less calm. And I think like that calmness, maybe from the perspective of a company, like cool, builds hype, it's like whatever makes you sound good. But for the industry on the whole, I think having those kinds of really just splashy mechanics, they end up making everything worse and more likely to blow up in the future. Agreed. That all being said, very well done to pump on, you know, amazing coming out party. And the other the kudos that we should give is to hyperliquid. So one of the big stories around the pump launch was the fact that hyperliquid was the first to list,

pump, not the first list, but one of the first list, perps on pump. Almost all of the centralized exchanges listed perps on pump as well, including Coinbase actually. So Coinbase International also had a pump perp. But it looks like hyperliquid was by far the most liquid venue to trade pump. And so it got a lot of kudos and a lot of attention and actually hit an all-time high in terms of overall open interest, reaching 11.5 billion during the period of the pre-launch trading for pump. So most people who are hedging or just yelowing some exposure to pump in the pre-launch period was happening on hyperliquid, which is, again, is a new, obviously for hyperliquid itself or for hype, it's always been

the most liquid venue. But for the first time, we saw it be the number one venue for a new asset, which is, I think, again, a new trophy that Defi can take home is saying, hey, all of a sudden we've got this new niche that may end up continuing to resonate down the road. I think the Phantom builder code hyperliquid thing happened at just the right time for this. Right. So Phantom also announced that they were launching perps and these perps are powered by hyperliquid. So hyperliquid seems to be firing all cylinders and hype itself has recently hit all-time highs in terms of price. So a lot of the hyperliquid bowls are sitting pretty. And there's also this treasury vehicle that's like 888 million that was raised for, Hyperliquid, I think it was back by paradigm and a bunch of the kind of usual suspects.

Yes, Galaxy Parify, the usual treasury company guys. Okay, but can I just say a couple things about this? First, I thought it's hilarious that they made the merger company named Roershock. Second, it's very hard for me to not view the like more illiquid treasury vehicles as like private holders dumping on retail. Is there like a positive spin on these? Wait, the more, why is this the more illiquid? I mean, it's pretty big. Well, I just mean that like, it's like, you subscribe in kind with the asset.

You get shares in the company and then like you're locked up for three months. I mean, that just seems, it just doesn't like, I don't really get the point of like the Bitcoin one. You know, actually, I'm just kind of like, okay, fine. There are these people who want access to this thing that's like a high enough market cap. Hyperliquins a little bit weird, right? Like at the size that's at to be in one of these things, it's just like compare, you know, Solana Eath, like kind of can get. Turretre, there's a few different arguments.

That's number 12. But there's a few arbitrations here. One is the average person would have no idea how to buy hype, if not in. What do you mean? You buy them in Phantom. It's like, it's like it is actually an easy to buy assets. The average person is not using Phantom. Yeah, come on, come on.

That's easy, but it's not like really easy. So like, it does have. an accessibility differentiator where it's like if you're one of those trad-fied people that you were talking about at the beginning of the show, they can access this in a way they understand. And I think that's a lower tier of sophistication. So I get that for these like Vanguard type people, right? Because they're like, oh, shit, we have to add micro strategy to our index because we're not allowed to buy Bitcoin because we're idiotic and our index methodology doesn't matter. Absolutely. But like I don't get that. There's like some tiering of market cap, but which is that argument decays and it becomes just like,

how do we, it's like SPACs, it's like Chimoth Spacks, it's like dump on retail. Totally, totally, but there's multiple levels here, right? So the sophistication of the charges want, okay, but there's also the inherent leverage. We've talked about this at length on prior shows. The fact that these are all levered vehicles is extra fun for all of the people involved, right?

And frankly, there might be a liquidity differential between an equity and hype, you know, so all of it I kind of buy it, but like I'm just like, it just always feels like it's like a cheap. Look, I think if there's any asset that you can make the access argument. Okay. I'll just say this. Any asset for which you can make the access argument, hyperliqu is probably the number one asset that has access issues. Versus Bitcoin.

Even if you're on Phantom, you can buy a perp, right? Buying a perp, like that's not buying hype. Like what random person would be like, great, let me open a, let me open a directus position. You can buy a hype perp on Phantom. right? So it's a hype hype. True, true. Okay. Anyway, I basically, you know, I have this friend who is an AI and like never pays attention to crypto. It thinks it's 99% of scam. But, you know, every once in a while he'll ask

me, he's like, and he like happened to open his Coinbase account the one time a year he opened it and was like, oh, wow, Bitcoin was up. I didn't realize that. And then he's like, what happened to like, what are like the top crypto funds investing in? Like that one that like, invested in FTX with Sequoia. And I was like, well, they're selling you a hype marketing vehicle right now. And he was like, what does that mean? And then I walked him through it. And he's like, isn't this just dumping on retail? And I'm like, this guy's one the smartest people I know. And two seconds, he says that without anything, any of the other explanations. And I'm just like, at a loss, I'm like, yeah, I don't really have much else to say about this. Like, yeah, you're

probably right. Like, and I just, yeah, it's just like, it's hard for me to be very, I feel like, it's a little, it's a little demotivating sometimes. Do you think this is also true for the, for ESPED? Do you make the same market for ESPED? At least ESPet's staking. It's like using it on chain. Like, staking?

Do you have 3% a year that's going to booing retail's returns? Look, all, no, no, no. At least they're like using it on chain. You know, they're doing something. This feels like, where's the cutoff? Is sole strategy? Is that above your bar? Is that below your bar?

I just, I just something like at some market cap, these things suddenly become like, I think this is very arbitrary. I think you guys either they're all bad or they're all fine. Like one way, like, and you're not defrauding people. He knows it when he sees it. Yeah. I just think if, if like really smart people outside of crypto are suddenly like, oh, great.

Like I see prices off. What's new? What's happened? And then I'm like, oh, this. They're like, oh, it's even worse scam. Well, I just told you that they hit all time highs and open interests and they're doing all this thing. What am I supposed to say?

What am I supposed to say, though? And like, that's the answer. Tell him that it's a growing exchange? I will just say like the lack Crypto certainly faced this challenge this is the Defi story

you got in this industry because of Defi this defy Treasury companies are not no no Hyperliquid crushing is it closer to defy Yeah but so you ask why is hyperlip going up

The answer is that defy is winning But the treasury company thing I think is like That's the part where it's like Oh what can I can I say anything That doesn't make me like want to stab myself about the state of the world. Okay. I mean, look, I agree with the overall sentiment that clearly these things can't trade above

now forever, right? Like that is a financial alchemy that just cannot be sustained indefinitely. I think Bitcoin I'm willing to agree. Because like, if you own some index that has to add every asset above some market cap and you don't have a way of doing it and the ETF is capacity. strained in some weird. Like, I can't, there's reasons I understand that.

I don't know. I think that's a pretty torture defense. These other ones, the index providers aren't going to add them to anything, right? Like, there's no, there's no, there's no hype stock going into like some mutual funds portfolio.

Not yet. I mean, everyone shows. Okay, Robert. Tell, tell me. S-Bet is right now the largest holder of Ethereum in the world. Yeah. And micro strategy. More than Ethereum Foundation.

Correct. Micro Strategies entering indices. Like, everyone's talking about micro strategy in the ESP fund. No, no, no, no. I'm not at MSTR, MSTR actually in particular is, is this arbitrage where it's like, there are all these fund managers

are like, we'll never buy Bitcoin, but they also have mandates where they have to own every asset above a market cap. And Microsoft actually perfectly fits agrees. But like I do I think that's going to happen for these lower.

On these like institutional investors, isn't that the same like in the day? Yeah. Look, look. At end of the day, I would like to be able to say something like interesting or novel about this whole thing without someone smart just immediately being like,

God, you guys have just institutionalized scamming. What do I say to that? I don't have a good answer. We should get sailor on the show and have it. Michael, if you're listening, come on the choppy block and explain to Tarun. Why I'm an idiot. I'm happy to sit here and wear a dunce cap while you yell at.

Yeah. I mean, look, at the end of the day, if you're scamming pensions, like that's just some retired firefighter, grandmother who's also losing. the end of the day, like, if you're making money, someone's losing money most of the time. Private X-Wing has been scamming pensions for like 20 years.

God bless America. I mean, I think I would feel worse if hype wasn't actually doing something useful. Then it would be, if it was like the Ada, ETF, we've got, no, no, I know. Tron going live soon.

But Tron's actually, USDT on Tron is used. I can't get mad at that. Where do you troll the lines? So you like all the treasury vehicles is kind of the method of getting. You've defended every single one besides hyperliquid. Yeah. No, no, no. I don't mind.

I think the hype one is also. I'm just, that one made me feel this thing. I think you, Turin, you are toast once this episode comes out. All the hyperliquid bros are coming out of you. Every community is coming after.

No, no, no, no, no, no. Hyperliquid itself. I'm just like, great. I own hype. I like,

I totally get why it's an amazing asset, right? But it doesn't deserve to go into a treasury vehicle. No, it's just a, The size of the treasury vehicle relative to market cap is also kind of crazy. Right? Like it really does feel like, hey, everyone just wants to dump. Dump.

Yeah. Market cap's like $15 billion, right? Yeah. So it's like 6 or 7% going in, which is a lot. I mean, how much of Bitcoin is Sailor? It's like 2.5%, 3%. Yeah. Yeah.

Okay. So it's like, one of magnitude. It's like not crazy. Yes. And that's after. accumulating for how long. Right, right. So I think like there's a little bit of like this greed thing that I'm like looking at

these numbers. I'm like, like I, how can I defend crypto anymore when I look at stuff like that? Now is the time that you worry about defending crypto? Like I feel like the last two years it was pretty tough. Now I feel like all of a sudden my job has gotten a lot easier. It's,

no, no. This is crypto week in DC. It's easy to people. To root it's crypto week. This is Crypto Week. This episode will come out during Crypto Week after a bunch of bills of past. I will say, and then I think like one of the reasons you're seeing sort of like talent departure is because you can't explain this shit.

Like it really is like anyone smart is like, oh, this sounds dumb. Like how is this actually changing finance? Listen, I agree that all of this crypto treasury stuff are exotic financial instruments that haven't really been seen or understood yet. So, like, society is still in the infancy of, like, trying to model out this, like, extremely exotic instrument of, like, it's a company with, like, corporate finance and debt and it's levered. And then eventually the asset gets too big. And it's like, it's so complex that, like, no one understands it. Right. But it doesn't mean that it's bad.

It just means that in, like, I'm not saying it's necessarily. I look, look, look, I'm not making a good or bad judgment. I'm making it, like, how do I convince anyone's smart that, like, hey, this industry is doing something great. When it's like, oh, like, why are all these prices up? I'm like, oh, because these treasury companies are, oh. It's not. It's definitely not solely because of the treasury companies. No, no, no.

I know. I know. I know. I know. I know. I'm not saying, I'm saying, then people are like, what are the new innovations? I'm like, okay, we have new perpetual exchanges and stuff. They're like, okay, fine.

But you had them before. They're slightly better. Maybe they're a little more open. Right. They're bigger. They're taking over the overall. That's the whole theory. Yeah, that's the answer.

Is that the businesses are working. more people are using stable coins, more people are on chain, more people are trading, there's more TVL. That's the answer, all the numbers went up into the right. You know, what was the difference in Facebook from 2005 to 2015? The answer is mostly that there were just more people, and they figured out how to sell ads to them. Like, what was the big innovation?

It's like, oh, we added images and videos now. The news feed got better, yeah. Yeah, exactly. Maybe I'm just too cynical. I should. Yeah, Tarun is the jaded member of our. I think it's, you know, the problem with you, Tarun, is at the moment things are going well for you, you start reflexively finding things to be sad about.

I think this is more of a Tarun thing than it is an industry thing. I think you need to introspect and why you can't just allow yourself to feel crypto weak in your heart and soul. Yeah, that's a, this is crypto week. I got, I got to go like take some, take some crypto week happy pills or something. Okay, so on that note, let's talk about crypto week so Turin can feel a little bit better. So this week is Crypto Week, according to President Trump. So President Trump has declared this week, Crypto Week, saying that all Republicans should vote yes on the Genius Act, the Clarity Act, and the Anti-CBDC Surveillance Act. So for a quick recall, the Genius Act is a Stablecoin bill that recently passed the Senate, 66 to 30.

It has gone to the House. The Clarity Act is the Market Structure bill that basically defines what is the CFTC going to own, what's the SEC going to own, what's the security, what's commodity, etc. and then the Anti-C Surveillance Act for some reason is also part of the mix, which basically says that the central bank cannot issue a CBDC. Again, we've talked about this previously on the show. I don't know who cares so much about this. Every single Fed has said they don't. Marjorie-Therry-Green-Ther really cares about it.

Very important to her that the Dems cannot be allowed to launch CBDC, even though the Dems previously were also like, yeah, we don't want to launch CBDC either. Nobody should do a CPDC. But for some reason, this is just a big issue that needs to get litigated. So in celebration of Crypto Week, unfortunately Crypto Week is not off to a good start. Beyond Tarun feeling sad, the House GOP failed to pass a procedural vote allowing the bills to proceed to a vote. So they were blocked 196 to 223. The reason why it was that the GOP has basically said and the Freedom Caucus, not the Juvenor

Caucus. The Freedom Caucus. I'm sorry, the Freedom Caucus. They have not allowed any amendments to the crypto bills. But the Republicans in the House really want to amend the bills and add whatever. pet things that they feel like should be changed, as well as do some, you know, potentially staple some of the bills together, include the CBDC Act and the Genius Act. And so basically there's a little bit of a civil war going on right now within the House,

unclear whether they're going to get their shit together and make the president happy. But so far, Crypto Week, a little bit shaky to see whether or not we're going to be able to get these bills passed over the course of this week. So, very unfortunate. Sorry, Tarun, I couldn't cheer you up a little bit more with what's going on there. But as chief regulator, any thoughts on what we're seeing with Crypto Week? CBDCs are just like such a weird issue in 2025, right? Like I feel like when Libra was launching and everyone was worried about that was the time people.

That wasn't a CVDC. That was the exact inverse of it. I know. But like all the people loved using. So the European regulators were like, oh, Facebook's trying to take our money. We're going to make a CBDC. That was like the non-U.S side of this. but like who cares now?

Like it just feels like the market has moved so far away from it. Like no one, none of these projects that were started seem to have any adoption. Like the only things close to CBDC are like PICs in Brazil and UPI and India, which are like the, you know, people, it's not like the average person in India is like thinking about it. They just like tap with their phone and move on with their lives. But that's why we have to surveil the country to make sure that we never allow a CBDC.

And that is the purpose of the stuff. The CBDC at this point just means a retail facing payment system that's run by the central bank. That's what CBDC means. Yes. Okay. There's no blockchain or anything. That's with all that is gone. Because Pix is like that preceded all the CBDC talk.

It's a digital currency. We're now rebranding these CVDCs. Is that how it where I don't, I genuinely don't know. I'm asking. That's why we need the bill. Okay. I mean, I think the ID, the one thing about the CVDC is. DC is that I think I do sort of that people always argue about it's like oh well because they're

centralized you'll have some privacy and you're only surveilled by the state. Oh thank goodness. And like that there's a certain type of person like Elizabeth Warren who certainly like loves proposing things like this but like none of her proposals ever get any traction so who cares like it feels like a very pvp one-on-one thing that like doesn't I don't know it seems dumb and also like include the provision. Who cares? Like what you're there's, I don't even think people are going to vote against it. Right. Who's against it? Who's like, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. CPDC. Like, we have to preserve it. Yeah, I don't, I don't get that. Yeah. I don't know. I'm just, I find it hilarious that this is even part of the conversation. But, but Robert, you know, you're, I think the more DC plugged in person.

How do you handicap the odds here given the infighting that we're now seeing in the house? I think the odds are good, but not extremely good for all of this. I think no matter what stable coin is a certainty, I think because clarity is a little bit newer and because CBDC is a little bit newer, the odds have to be lower. But I think the goal that's been laid out for everybody is that all three go together. And a victorious crypto week is had by all. So I think if I have to assign a probability to like all of it working, it's probably like 65%. If I have to assign a probability for like just stable coins working, it's like 34%.

And then there's like a 1% chance of like total outright disaster. That's kind of my like Bayesian. Can I ask you a second question, which is how much did that change? Did those numbers change prior to this vote today? How much did like you get an update? I don't have like a super sophisticated Beijing. model for this, so, like, I don't have a good answer. But those are my current probabilities.

Was it, like, oh, like, my probabilities went down 10%. I actually think the probability that all three go together went higher, simply because of, like, the Freedom caucus saying, like, it's all or nothing, you know, like, we need CBDC. Like, it goes, like, together as a thing. So I actually think the probability of all three is going up. As opposed to just stable coin. Oh.

Dominant. Believe it or not, there is a, polymarket for this. Not a ton of volume. I'm not a ton of volume. Speaking of polymarket. We will get to that. It is at 92% Genius Act

signed into the law in 2025. Clarity is at 63. Clarity only has $1,000 in volume, so I don't know if I would put a lot of those. Wait, so far these are pretty close to my probability. Yeah, but $1,000 in volume is pretty, that's kind of a pittance. Let's see if we can get some more volume

into that market. We'll revisit it next week and see how clarity is doing. still not pass by then. If you don't live in the U.S. If you don't live in the U.S. If you don't live in the U.S. Okay, so speaking of which, one of the big stories of Crypto Week,

one of the only positive stories that we can point to in Crypto Week is that the DOJ and CFTC have jointly dropped their investigations into Polymarket. So for those of you who are not familiar, by the way, we're all four of us and our investors into Polymarket.

Polymarket is the largest prediction market in the world founded by Shane Copeland. Polymarket was founded like, what was it, 2020, 2021, they originally had a settlement with the CFTC back in 2022, where they had a deal that had them geo-blocking U.S. users, so they couldn't participate on the platform. During the election, there was a lot of speculation

that American users were, in fact, using the platform. And this supposedly was this precipitated this probe into Polymarket, which also led to a raid on Shane's house, personally, from the DOJ. Now, all of these claims have been dropped. Polymarket now is free to re-enter the U.S. legally if they can register or acquire a license. But this, again, seems to be vindication that whatever it is that happened to polymarket post the election was likely politically motivated, given that they basically got him while Biden was still in office. And then now that things are,

you know, the administration has turned over and there's been a change in priorities. Everything has been dropped and no charges are being filed. So awesome to hear. And again, a win for prediction markets on the whole. Tom, any perspective on this? Yeah, yay prediction markets. You know, they give us, they give us content for the podcast. So I'm, I'm very pro prediction market just for that reason. Was there a prediction market on this event happening? I don't believe so, but I wouldn't, I wouldn't put it past Pauly Market to have a market for that. There's all sorts of, you know, good stuff in the, in the far corners of the platform. Yeah. With $1,000.

Yeah, Twitter was very, yeah, Twitter was very, jubilant about this, given that this was such a, you know, it was just kind of a sad story to see a Paul thrown on somebody who really, I mean, Shane kind of single-handedly created the prediction market industry. You know, obviously there were, they were predecessors of, you know, Auger and, of course, you know, Vitalik and many people in the early days, Robin Hansen, of course, being the original inventor of the concept. But Shane was really the one who made it happen. And he made it happen, just pure blood, sweat, and tears grinding for many, many years at a time when basically nobody cared until about a year ago.

Well, it wasn't even that. I feel like he still got in like regulatory trouble for a non at the, in the early days with like a thing that was like not super well used because like, so I feel like he just like stomached a lot of bullshit of earthy years in a way, in a way that I feel like very few people in crypto can really compare. And I feel like Robert and I have probably known him since like 2017, 2018. And it's like watching the evolution has been kind of also wild. Yeah.

No, Sam, we, Tom, when did we first meet Shane? I think it was 2019. I think it was one of the first deals I talked to at Dragonfly. And yeah, I mean, Shane's just an OG as far as, you know, OGs are still around. Like, you know, the man just lives and breathes prediction market. So glad to see him moving on to bigger and better things. And to your point around kind of, I feel like Polymarket kind of dragging everyone,

kicking and screaming into the future. I saw it today, predicted was also upping their bet sizes. They've been this like dinosaur OG that just has an absolutely terrible. Yeah, yeah. And great, some of it was,

was frankly for it, but like, oh, great, now you can bet $3,000 on predicted. And it just feels like, I don't think that ever would have happened were not for all the markets, you know, success in 2014. Thank goodness.

Polymer market really. $3,000. Now predicted as $3,000 betting limits. By the way, by the way, you know, a fun fact is like One of the first ICOs in 2016 was NOSIS raising for a prediction market. But then, of course, they became a totally different company later. Yeah, multi-sex, which is now safe.

So the real question is, I'm curious about your predictions. If we think of the 2016 ICER, like before the L1, everyone raised for L1s, whatever, where it was like all the East projects, consensus projects, like that's why the NOSIS happened. And that set off the boom. let's suppose pump sets off the boom, what is the thing that is like caused us? So it's like interesting to think about prediction markets caused this 2016,

we're sort of the genesis in the 2016 ICO boom. And then now we have mature ones, right, that we're talking about. So what do you think will be like the mature technology that right now is speculative that will ICO in the next year? Good question. Sorry.

Are you in the polymarket? Like what do you say? Well, because like I think, I think, you know, like, at that time, it's prediction market. This time it's pumped out fun. So, like, what does that imply in terms of, like, what the, what will be ICOing over the next six months? Like, who are those people? Beyond the, like, obvious ones, like the terminals and, like, the things that look like pumped up fun.

Yeah. Yeah, there's, I mean, there's not a lot of products that are at that stage. And the other thing, too, is that I have to imagine, actually, for a lot of these businesses, they might just be on down, I don't know if it's worth it. Phantom ICO. Good question. Honestly, it could actually make sense. That's the one that's always been, I've been kind of like.

Yeah, I mean, there's been whispers about a MetaMask ICO for a long time, not an ICO but a token. And that hasn't materialized. And it's been so many years. Speaking of which, what happened to the OpenC token? Was this not? I totally forgot about it. Yeah, good point, Tom. I need some OpenC tokens.

You forget about OpenC token. Congratulations to OpenC co-founder Alex Atala for making another. very large business, actually. Open router is like crushing it. So I feel like, I think it's actually kind of He doesn't need the token. He doesn't need a token. That's why they're still to do that.

That's right. That's right. Cool. Well, so speaking of tokens, the other big story that I want to cover was just. Yeah, I know. There's been just crazy rally in alts over the last week. So we've seen a bunch of tokens hit huge numbers. Just going since basically the last month. Pengu is up 270, Stellar is up 94%, Say is up 85%, Algo up 74%, Sui up 60, Arb up 55, up 55, Ena up 45, Uni up 43,

and BTC, of course, hitting all-time highs. Interestingly, Bitcoin has not hit all-time highs in euros, but has hit all-time highs in dollars because of the fact, of course, that the dollar index has been so weak this year, the dollar index is down like something 10% relative to a basket of other currencies. So, but, you know, long and short, markets are feeling very strong. Stock market has hit all-time highs. So things are firing on all cylinders, at least in the U.S. It's interesting to me because I've always been a little bit skeptical of a lot of the

people who've been saying that, oh, alt are cooked, it's kind of over. There's never going to, you know, now it's like revenue meta forever and anything that's not making money is just going to be, you know, dropped like a hot stone. And now it's just kind of back to the usual. Is that, okay, well, you know, here we go. Hashgraph is pumping and Pengu is pumping and, you know, whatever. Don't forget about whatever you were saying last week. Now it's just kind of back to momentum trading.

Yeah, I mean, there's a lot of questions about what gives certain crypto assets value. And, you know, it's the same conversation of what gives Bitcoin value. Like when there's no cash flows, you have to use alternative memetic valuations in a different way, you know, where it's very different than fundamental trad-fi analysis, right? So, yes, there's a moment. moment very recently where it's like it's all about that cash flow and there's also the classic crypto what cash flow there is not there doesn't have to be any it's totally different it seems like uh i think it was tom lee who's been telling the story about ethereum that uh what's

the what's the thing it's like the digital do you say digital oil uh but it's like oh wall street has to buy this in order to validate and secure their own stable coins or something something like this uh they don't do you guys want to know yeah exactly Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. They're going to buy East for a statement issue. But like it's working. Like people are, you know, it's sticking with people for some reason. Exactly.

I've been hearing this. This has been a meme back to like 2015, though. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I remember the early days. It's repackaged, it's refreshed. It's now, you know, Tom Lee's put a fresh paint of cone on it. Honestly, the Tom Lee dancing to the ETH thing memes are pretty funny. I'm going to be the first one to say. I have not.

You should go look up the Tom Lee dancing memes. pretty funny. Okay. But I think it's, again, a sign of the times that, like, we just needed, you know, for Ethereum and for Alts to start making your comeback, I think ETH so far has actually outperformed Bitcoin on this rebound. And a lot of this, I think, is due to this storytelling. Well, S-Bed is probably part of it, but also the storytelling that I think Tom Lee is kind of taken up the mantle and said, hey, here's a way that we can repackage this narrative that Wall Street's going to buy. At the end of the day, if people buy it and it's working and it's hitting, it doesn't really matter if it's an old narrative that's been, you know, kind of rejiggered and brought

into a new form factor. I kind of expect that to continue. The one thing that's kind of odd is how much Solana's been lagging. Salana seems to have been kind of the lagger, despite the fact last year it was absolutely explosive. And even beginning of this year, it hit all-time highs of over 300 when Trump launched his meme coin. It's still like, one. 160 something, right? So it's like half of where it was when Trump launched a Trump token. And I mean, the anecdotal evidence, I will tell you, the anecdotal evidence is like, the Dgen group chats I sit in have all been like, don't hold soul, hold pump.

It has sole beta, which has been like a funny in like the last 24 hours. This is why I've seen like multiple places people saying stuff like this, which is like You want to soul beta though? I don't look Look look I'm just Parling This is not worked well

on Ethereum Anybody who's holding an asset Because they thought They were getting ETH beta got crushed Agreed Yeah Yeah that's true

So I mean I do think Hype kind of took a lot of the fervor from L1s outside Like non-dinosaur L-1s outside of Ethereum

There's like Like the same So like I think like In some ways the market does really view Sol and hype as direct competitors and seems to value. Of course they are.

Yeah, they are like. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But I think like there was a time, where there was a time where people were trying to make a story that they weren't. Do you, hold on. I don't know that I agree they are. I mean, Hyper EVM obviously is a different story, but Hyper Liquid itself being a competitor to Solana?

Yeah, I think they totally are. They're both chains that people go to trade. Is Binance are competitor to Solana? In a way. Okay. Like what degree? Yeah, okay. Yeah, yeah.

I look, look. I'm not saying they're like one to one competitive. But I'm saying that like there's a sentiment amongst investors that they're that like, oh, like if I think of the fees, if you care about the revenue story. Right. And people are like, look at the fees. Yeah, there's the fees. Fees wise, like you flip from one to the other at this at high enough market cap. Correct. They have the same use case for the majority of the use that's happening.

Right. Min is token. The fees argument, yeah, the fees argument on Solana was always a little bit tortured relative to the fees argument for hyperliquid, which is just very straightforward because it's pure buybacks, right? So like the economic value is directly getting delivered to token holders. Whereas for Solana, it's like, well, this is like a measure of their willingness to pay for Solana transactions.

I'm going to get hate for this comment. but I I okay it's fine you've already built it up this whole like yeah don't worry you don't worry you know

the hyperliquid stuff you already you're already pulled up for the show so you remember back in the day when all the like all the like

L2 teams would constantly be fighting on Twitter but like no one had launched L2 or like the ZK teams

would fight and and they they everyone like invented a particular metric that made their thing look

really great but like other people's worth whatever I feel like the the the mini bear market of this year

of like everyone fighting over revenue versus like rev versus transaction fees like eth transaction fees versus Solana Rev so it feels a little bit like that where like everyone was like so focused on like figuring out the metric to do Good's Heart's laws on that they like forgot that they had to go like compete against this new chain yeah I mean it's always my bags are better than your bags like so I'm going to use my metric and your metrics like it's all silly but the problem is salina chose a metric that then they kind of got like beat on and some. And I look, I don't think it's really beat on

because they are not totally fungible. But I do think to the average token investor who is like trading the revenue meme, they are fungible, right? They don't care. They just like look at those as like the flip. Yeah, fair enough. Okay, well, we are up on time.

So we got to wrap. But next week we will be coming back to talk about Robert's liquor store. So tune in for that. It's going to be very exciting. Until then, we will see you all next week. Stay safe, everybody. Enjoyed Crypto Week.