Unchained - Unchained 5-Year Anniversary: AMA With Laura on Her Favorite Guests, Predictions and More - Ep.246

Episode Date: June 15, 2021

To celebrate the 5th anniversary of Unchained, I answer some questions submitted to me by the audience. In this episode, I cover: what I think about the relationship between psychedelics and crypto the most entertaining guest I’ve interviewed on Unchained why Coinbase founders may have a more impactful future on crypto than Ethereum founders which show has been the most impactful why I am a “nocoiner” where I believe DAOs fit into the future of crypto who my favorite guests have been over the years what I am most fearful and most hopeful about in the crypto space why I think user-friendly products are so important moving forward which DeFi projects I find the most interesting what sort of expenses go into producing Unchained which topics I would like to cover in the future the most surprising answers I have received in an interview (feat. CZ and Vitalik) what three cryptos I think will be most important three years from now if I think I have interviewed Satoshi :) my advice for anyone looking to change careers and go crypto who has been the hardest person to book on Unchained what crypto trend has surprised me the most in the past five years Thank you to our sponsors! Crypto.com: https://crypto.onelink.me/J9Lg/unchainedcardearnfeb2   Tezos: https://tezos.com/discover?utm_source=laura-shin&utm_medium=podcast-sponsorship-unconfirmed&utm_campaign=tezos-campaign&utm_content=hero   Keychain: https://conjure.finance    Episode Links   Twitter: https://twitter.com/Unchained_pod  Daily Newsletter: https://unchainedpodcast.com/    Podcasts mentioned during the show: Vitalik Buterin on Ethereum’s Five-Year Anniversary https://unchainedpodcast.com/vitalik-buterin-on-ethereums-five-year-anniversary/ Listen to CZ Compare Binance to Bitcoin https://unchainedpodcast.com/listen-to-cz-compare-binance-to-bitcoin/  Mark Cuban on Why He Thinks ETH Is a Better Store of Value Than Bitcoin https://unchainedpodcast.com/mark-cuban-on-why-he-thinks-eth-is-a-better-store-of-value-than-bitcoin/  Meltem Demirors and Jill Carlson on the Shitcoin Waterfall – Ep.74 https://unchainedpodcast.com/meltem-demirors-and-jill-carlson-on-the-shitcoin-waterfall-ep-74/ Yeonmi Park on Why Doing Business With North Korea Is Like Buying a Ticket to a Concentration Camp https://unchainedpodcast.com/yeonmi-park-on-why-doing-business-with-north-korea-is-like-buying-a-ticket-to-a-concentration-camp/  Andre Cronje of Yearn Finance on YFI and the Fair Launch: ‘I’m Lazy’ https://unchainedpodcast.com/andre-cronje-of-yearn-finance-on-yfi-and-the-fair-launch-im-lazy/  Nick Tomaino on 1confirmation’s $125 Million Fund and What Future NFTs Will Look Like https://unchainedpodcast.com/nick-tomaino-on-1confirmations-125-million-fund-and-what-future-nfts-will-look-like/  Why Bitcoin’s December Price Target Is Now ‘Above $300,000’ (Willy Woo) https://unchainedpodcast.com/charting-bitcoins-growth-with-willy-woo-and-peter-brandt/ What Makes a CryptoKitty Worth $140,000? – Ep.75 (Roham Gharegozlou) https://unchainedpodcast.com/what-makes-a-cryptokitty-worth-140000-ep-75 Why I don’t own crypto: https://twitter.com/laurashin/status/1376211065772576770 Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Hi everyone. Welcome to Unchained. You're a no hype resource for all things crypto. I'm your host, Laura Shin, a journalist with over two decades of experience. I started covering crypto six years ago and as a senior editor at Forbes was the first mainstream media reporter to cover cryptocurrency full-time. This is the June 15th, 2021 episode of Unchained, which makes it the five-year anniversary of the podcast. I was originally planning a five-year anniversary event for the show, like an in-person event. But it's not really possible to wrap up a book, plan an event, and also produce two podcasts a week and a daily newsletter. So I will be planning an event for the fall. And what's even better about that is that we should be more fully past COVID at that time,

which means we could have an event with few or no restrictions. so stay tuned for news on that. TASOS is smart money. That's redefining what it means to hold an exchange value in a digitally connected world. Discover how people are reimagining the world around you on TASOS. Conjure brings any asset you want onto Ethereum by allowing for users to create synthetic assets which track other markets. With zero interest loans and unlimited assets, it's helping defy to consume tradfi. That's C-O-N-J-U-R-E dot finance.

Check it out. The crypto.com app lets you buy, earn, and spend crypto all in one place. Earn up to 8.5% interest on your Bitcoin and 14% interest on your stable coins. Paid weekly. Download the crypto.com app and get $25 with the code Laura. The link is in the description. Today's episode for the five-year anniversary is just an AMA because I'm also wrapping up my book as we speak and just needed to. to use the time that I would have used to book a guest to finish up the book.

So today's first question is a poem from Ben Lawson, who some of you might remember for making this amazing video that we used in the live podcast recording with Vitalik Boutteran back in 2019. And for this episode, Ben has written a lovely poem with some really deep questions. Take a listen. Thanks and praises, Laura Shin. It's an honor to visit your show again.

forgive me for being so blunt, but a controversial answer is what I want. Not to put you on the spot, but we all know your takes are smoking hot. Do you think crypto has a role to play in the battle for drug peace? Could crypto philanthropists change the laws and get nonviolent prisoners released? Should worshiping Mother Nature be such a heinous crime? For loving her healing gifts, should we be staring down hard time? Has there been anything else like the famed pineapple fund? Have Giveth and BitGiv projects fought for drug policy reform? With more trauma now than ever, it feels like the medicine work has just begun. Amin Soleimani is proudly outspoken about scoring shrooms on the Silk Road. Charles Hoskinson has wild masculine stories to tell of his own. Peter McCormick bought cannabis oil

with Bitcoin to ease his mother's pain. Thanks to Ross Ulbrook, many a psychedelic seeker could avoid the street and be more safe. Ayahuasca may or may not be your cup of tea. Perhaps you're uninitiated into the wilds of DMT. I wouldn't expect you to wave a golden black flag like Vin Armani or espouse all of the tenets of cypherpunk crypto-anarchy. But as a former yoga teacher and invioled reporter, you might agree a fair and balanced story is in order. As memesters and fudsters troll the socials over which blockchain is more green, you don't have to be on Joe Rogan to know higher consciousness is what we need. I'd rather smoke a joint with the heroic peaceful warrior Alex Gladstein talk about uprisings against police states and authoritarian

regimes, but Laura, you're the smartest off-chain oracle in the room. Maybe you know best if crypto-psychedelic liberation is coming soon. Is this the year when a swarm of crypto-propolecate join the fight to make access to plant medicine, a universal human right? So, Ben, this question is actually really outside of my area of expertise, I will have to say. However, one thing that does come to mind when I was listening to your lovely poem is that certainly a lot of people in crypto are very interested in psychedelics. And we also know that this is a trend now in Silicon Valley and just generally kind of in tech. For anybody who listens to Tim Ferriss, I'm sure all of you know that he is quite active in this space and also in the startup world and also into crypto.

So I would say that there's probably going to be a lot of people with a lot of money who have an interest in this space. and you did mention some of them in your recording. I also know, like back when I thought that Olaf was going to be one of the characters in my book and I was kind of doing some early interviews with him. One of the questions I asked him is, you know, oh, if he really make it and you become, well, I mean, I was literally asking this in like 2016. It was like right after he launched his hedge fund. And one of the things he said is that he would like to donate to psychedelic research. So there's that. I will say in my book, psychedelics do show up a few times in the book because it's just something that a lot of people in the space are interested in.

And, you know, to the extent where I would say it's kind of probably what I would guess is of a greater prevalence than in the general population. There is an event where people kind of make that observation that, you know, the group of people assembled there kind of had a greater interest in it. than the wider world. And I would say, like if I compare it to my friends, then yeah, I would say my sources generally are more interested in this. So, you know, if people end up putting their money into what it is that they're firstly interested in,

then I would certainly guess that we would see that money going toward legitimizing, you know, drug use of different kinds, probably mainly, frankly, from what I can tell in the area of psychedelics. All right. So the second question comes from Sweden. And I will let you all take a listen to this. Hi there, Laura. Eric here from Sweden. Always enjoyed your podcast. My question to you is, amongst all the guests you had, which one was the most entertaining one?

Thank you. And God bless. So which guest was the most entertaining one? That is a good question. I, honestly, the first person that comes to mind is Meltem to Mirrors simply because, as many of you may recall, she, she swore a lot. Basically, and I ended up using one of those words in the episode title. And so that was just kind of hilarious, frankly. And she's just like a funny person. So I feel like that.

And actually in that episode, she was paired with Jill Carlson, who's a good friend of hers. And yes, I think the two of them just have really good banter. And as we all know, they went on and started their own podcast, which was really, really great. And so she comes to mind. And another person who just was such a good storyteller, like if you listen to that episode, I barely asked a question in the beginning because he just kind of went into storytelling mode. And it was just sort of a sit back and listen moment was Gabriel Abed of Bitt, who talked about kind of like his journey to, you know, help the Barbados government, I guess, create their digital, their central bank digital currency. So, yeah, so he was kind of like a fun and entertaining guest.

And I'm sure there are others. But there are other questions that kind of touch on this subject. so I will save those guests for those other questions. The next question comes from Ben Zhang, who writes, In financial venture history, we saw the rise of the PayPal Mafia, where discontent and network went on to create many new ventures and projects. From which group do you see a similar trend unfolding in the crypto space? For example, Ethereum or Coinbase, where they continue to help each other in the network.

and he mentions that, you know, he's thinking about how some of the Ethereum co-founders went on to develop Cardano and Pocodot and how Coinbase people have now started things like Polychain and D-YDX, etc. And a Coinbase, I actually think, may have even more because, you know, there's like Linda Shea who went on to do Scalar Capital, Nick Tamano, who does one confirmation. Yeah, there's just a lot. I think Diego, Monica, I think, may have worked at Coinbase and now he does Anchorage. Ridge. So there's actually quite a few. I mean, Coinbase is, you know, the Ethereum co-founders, there were only eight of them. And then for Coinbase people, there's, you know, tons more coin-based people. So, you know, I think obviously we are seeing that happen. I think what's interesting with the Ethereum story is that I'm sure people know that there's a little bit of bad blood amongst the co-founders. And so in that regard, I think some of the other blockchains are

looking to be competitive, or at least they're perceived that way, even when sometimes they're actually not that similar to Ethereum. So that's kind of an interesting thread that I do see. But for sure, I think, you know, because the space is so young that if somebody has experience at a successful company early on, then it's just, it just gives you so much more of a like up in a way than anybody who's kind of coming in now, even though, even though there's still so much green, what do they call it, green fields, uh, where, you know, like a lot of stuff just hasn't been created. And so I don't want to discourage anybody who has, um, only just entered the space. But, you know, for somebody who kind of really has already lived through all the

ups and downs, especially early on when there really was no infrastructure in place, it like, it kind of reminds me of how I started working at Newsweek.com back in 1998, and I learned a little bit of HTML, and I know it sounds so stupid, but in a way, like, that just helped me as the industry kind of kept changing against maybe some of the older people who weren't familiar with those things. Oh, and by the way, speaking in the Coinbase Mafia, Fred Ersom, the co-founder, you know, is another obvious example because he went on to Found Paradigm, which is, you know, one of the very active venture capital firms in the space. Okay, next question from Steve Strawn.

And actually, so I lumped three questions together because people have a lot of curiosity about this. So I'll kind of let them all ask it with their own angle and then I'll answer. So Steve Strawn asked, I understand you have not purchased Bitcoin or any other crypto asset in order to avoid a conflict of interest. Under what circumstances would you begin to purchase Bitcoin or any other crypto asset? Is there a point at which not owning Bitcoin, but owning USD, may be seen as a conflict of interest that may creep into your reporting?

And Scott wrote, has it been hard to remain a no-coiner, knowing the ROI that top cryptos have produced compared to other markets? And also has this been an obstacle in building credibility? And then Terry So asked, for someone with such an amazing upfront view, what's really stopping you from going all in on crypto? So just to correct the record for Steve, so when I worked at Forbes, the policy was that if you covered something that you could own it, but you had to disclose it. So I did at that time own a little bit of Bitcoin and also a little bit of ether. And then once I was out on my own and I wanted to write some freelance articles, the first place that I wanted to write for was a place where they didn't have that policy. you just couldn't own it if you were going to cover it. And, you know, so this, this maybe goes to the other questions, like from Terry who asked,

you know, what's really stopping me from going all in on crypto or from Scott asking if it's been hard for me to remain a no-coiner? So here's the thing, you know, as much as I am completely obsessed with crypto and have lived and breathed this for like over six years and just from the moment I learned about it became super, super obsessed. At the same time, I'm a writer and journalist first. It's just, it's just who I am. You know, I wanted to be a writer since I was nine years old. And there was a period when I kind of left journalism for a little bit. I was super unhappy during that time. And once I came back, I mean, I've just been like, this is my place. This is what I'm meant to do.

This is who I'm meant to be. I just have no question about that. And so if some of the rules of my industry are that, you know, in order to cover this for a certain publication, I can't own it. Like, you know what? That's, it doesn't bother me. It's like, that's just, that's just what my place is. And, you know, when it comes to like seeing the ROI, of course. I mean, it's like, it's not, it's not obvious to me that, oh, right, if I had kept that

little bit of Bitcoin like, oh, it would be worth whatever now. It's not like I can't figure that out. But at the same time, I just feel like if the price of enjoying those monetary games, would be that I can't write about this thing that I've had more professional fun doing than like anything else in my entire life than no way. Like you can't pay me enough money to not do this work. I love it. Like I'm just having so much fun. So in that regard, it has been hard. No, it's not been hard because I just am enjoying what I'm doing so much. And if that's what I have to do to do it, then like, it's totally fine with me. You know, the other thing, though,

is as I have mentioned on Twitter, like, I work for myself, right? It's like I could say, I don't want to write for those publications. And so therefore I'm just going to own these and I'm just going to disclose what I own and it's going to be fine. And, you know, at the moment, I personally would rather just write for those publications. If there comes a day when maybe I've written for them and I feel like, okay, you know, I've got that notch of my bell and I don't really need to kind of like follow their rules anymore. Then, yeah, maybe at that point I'll just buy and I'll disclose what I own and, you know, whatever. But honestly, like a lot of people seem to think that this is like something I might struggle with or they can't understand. how or why? And I'm like, do you not have anything that you love so much in the world that

people couldn't even pay you enough money to like give it up? And honestly, that's how I feel about covering crypto. Like that's, that's really, that's really it, you know? So no, it doesn't bother me. Okay, next question. This comes from Dylan Bricks. How do you think about Dow's? What applications of Dow's are having the most impact? What do you think is the trajectory? of the evolution of the space. So some of you, I think, have seen my TEDx talk, and that kind of really was about Dow's in a way. The angle that I talked about was a little bit more

what I was calling, like, user ownership, meaning that instead of this business model that we currently have, where these big tech companies kind of use our data and then sell that and make money off of that, like I do think that crypto networks could create a different sort of business model where the UNRs are also part

owners in the network. And that is basically a kind of doubt. You know, I didn't really focus so much on the organizational aspect in that talk. But that's really what I was talking about. And so, frankly, I think that's so revolutionary. I know I've said this, well, I don't know where I've

said it, maybe on Twitter or even on the show, I'm not sure. But the truth is that every time I think about this, I'm just like, whoa, this is such a big idea. And I really feel like ultimately when all is said and done, like this is going to be the big thing that kind of comes out of crypto, frankly. That's just my personal opinion. But, you know, I feel like the space is probably too young at the moment to really get a sense of what that's going to look

like. But essentially, my kind of theory about this is that over, you know, the last 20 odd years, we've just seen that our communities are moving online. And, you know, I think this was really underscored during the pandemic where for a lot of people, in a way, I mean, obviously, I mean, it really depends kind of like just, yeah, how your life is generally structured. But for a lot of people, their communities, you know, are online. And so they were able to kind of like keep up certain aspects of their lives or connect with, you know, people around those interests in an online space. And, you know, it just feels like so much of our world does already happen online. But there's no way for us to govern those spaces. And that's why, you know, we saw these controversies with Facebook and Twitter and how they were intersecting with things like our own.

government and, you know, who should hold the power when it comes to certain questions, you know, where the digital online space intersects with kind of, you know, like what people tend to call meat space. I really think that we are going to see crypto being used as a solution to address some of those issues. You know, I don't know how long it's going to take. I feel like so many things will need to happen for that to work. For instance, I think that blockchain-based identities will need to be a much bigger thing or a thing rather. And I do know some people who are thinking about interesting things when it comes to Dow's and how they intersect with the real world. And, you know, I'm so curious to see where all that goes. But frankly, at the moment, I really feel like the tech is

just so far in its infancy that this thing, which I truly think is going to be the big, big, big idea that comes out of all of this is kind of a ways off. So frankly, I will just keep covering it until we get there because I am so interested. And like I said, I do think that this will eventually be the way that we govern ourselves in what so far has been this kind of like a borderless internet. Well, except for one of the one of the world. other internet over there in China, which is different from ours. And or also, shout out to, you know, the land of my ancestors in North Korea where it's also a different internet. But anyway, okay, next question from Jean Martino, who were your most favorite and least favorite guests?

So I'm going to have to go with most favorite and not talk about any least favorite because the most favorite ones come to mind more easily than the least favorite. But I think some of you know you've heard me talk about how CZ is one of my favorites and only because, you know, I'm known for asking tough questions, but he is really good at giving good answers back and I really, really enjoy someone who just like really engages and isn't afraid to to just say what they think. So, so yes, definitely CZ Meltem, who I already mentioned, just because she's so entertaining. Another one, which I know a lot of people, you know, have told me that this was an impactful episode for them was the one with Yanmi Park, the North Korean defector who now is a human rights advocate

and works a lot with the Human Rights Foundation. And she, you know, just kind of like talked a little bit about what it was like going up there. And it really gave you a glimpse into how, you know, it's just a world that's so separate. And this was in the context of explaining how, you know, if Virgil Griffith from the Ethereum Foundation really thought he was going to help North Koreans, what he was doing was the exact opposite. Roya Maboub was also an amazing guest. And, you know, some of you may know either her or some of her more famous projects, such as the, I think it was the robotics team from Afghanistan. where I think something happened with their visas, but then the visa situation got resolved

and they were able to participate in a competition here in the U.S. And she's done all kinds of really great tech entrepreneurial things in Afghanistan and also worked with Bitcoin for some of her companies there. And so she just really talked about how Bitcoin was able to change the lives of a bunch of women that used her startups. And so that was really great. Olaf Carlson, we have Polly Chain Capital is another one, just because whenever I talk to him, you know, as a reporter, I feel like I'm kind of like looking out a certain amount.

And when I talk to Olaf, I can always tell he's just like a few steps ahead, which I really enjoy. And Chris Berniske is also kind of in that same bucket. And he's got this great analytical mind. And he has been one of the people to kind of, you know, formulate some of. some of the great models for us to think about crypto assets. And so, you know, for him, I just really enjoy how he takes kind of his traditional financial background and that analysis and applies it in this space in fresh and new ways. Oh, and also speaking of Yoni Park, I would have to say Alex Gladstein as well of the Human Rights Foundation,

who I'm sure many of you know just is such kind of a cutting edge thinker when it comes to thinking about how Bitcoin can be applied in a human rights context. And so I always enjoy talking with him and learning a lot more about kind of arenas that I'm much less familiar with. Some of the others are Willie Wu, who many of you know he was just on the show. And hilariously, there was like a previous show I did with him where one of the YouTube commenters was like, Laura's making eyes at Willie. And I was like, what? But I think the reason was because the Bitcoin price was like going up and up and up and up and we checked it right before the show and we were like shocked by the number. And so we started the show and we were like laughing kind of a lot when we started.

So I don't know if that's what that was about. But anyway, some other people, Kathy Wood, who, you know, she was the mentor to Chris Berninski. And she's just one of those people you get her on the show. And she's just like a fire hose of data and information and like really backs up everything she says. And she's such a big macro thinker and such a kind of futuristic thing. So I always enjoy hearing from her. Hester Perce, the SEC commissioner, who is also very forward-thinking, especially for a regulator, and really gets this tech and is, yeah, just somebody who doesn't make a knee-jerk response to things, but a very thoughtful one and really, you know, is dedicated to learning about the technology and thinking in deep ways about how that intersects with regulation.

and I could go on and on and on because there are so many people. Shout out to Andre Cronia, who I really had a fun conversation with Andrea Santinopoulos, who is obviously one of the great communicators and so nice to boot. And Haseeb Qureshi, who I would also put in that spot and Taylor Monaghan, who's highly entertaining and also just really incisive. So anyway, I could go on and on and on, but those are some of my favorite guess. what are you most fearful and most hopeful about in the crypto slash defy space and this question is from chuck wild um so let's see fearful um i would say at the moment uh and and because i've been working on the book

so tently i really have not been able to keep up on news anywhere near as much as i would like but you know i've tried to report on this a little bit i don't know how much people are paying attention but these new FADF rules, as they might apply to defy, they definitely have me concerned because to my mind, they don't, there's something, you know, it's really a change in philosophy, in my opinion, from the kind of previous FinCEN rules where, you know, that kind of regulation only applied to companies that were custody in crypto assets. And so in this case where they could apply these kinds of AML and KYC requirements to developers and things like that. That's something that to me, you know, signifies a significant change.

And I don't know how clearly it's been thought through. And I do wonder how that would affect the crypto space and frankly, just the development of this technology. So, you know, I actually basically think they might be meeting about that sometime very soon. As soon as I turn my book and I will try to do a little bit more reporting and let people know about that. And what I'm hopeful about is Dow's, as I mentioned. But along with Dow's quadratic voting, I think is such a great idea.

You know, I've been wanting to dive into some of the projects that are using that. I know Gitcoin does. And I think there are some others. And I really think that that is a great way to kind of work as an antidote against what some people see in our society as a lot of inequality or kind of like the ability for the very wealthy to kind of own lotmakers. And we can also see the same thing happen when people do on-chain votes. But I do feel like quadratic voting would be a way to counteract that. And as I said, my TEDx talk, I do think that user ownership is going to be a really

cool thing and it's going to allow a lot more people to work for themselves, which I think a lot of people really would want to do. You know, for me, I've done that for most of my career. And, you know, just every time I'm kind of in a space where I'm my independent self-working, like I'm just so much happier than I am working for somebody else. So I feel like a lot of people would enjoy that. And I do hope that crypto enables that. Next question from Charles. What are some missing catalyst that would ultimately encourage more people to adopt crypto? So for those of you who listened to my episode with Nick Tomey recently, where he said all he looks for when he goes to invest is great products.

I don't know if I would have thought of that before hearing that from him, but it makes so much sense. When you just look at simple things like how in 2017, you know, even, you even, you even though the ICO craze really, you know, was drawing in a lot of new people. It wasn't until CryptoKitties that kind of like everyday people really got into Ethereum and in a big, big way. And that's because that was a user-friendly product where you don't already have to be into crypto to be interested in it. And that's why I think Cryptokitties and NBA Top Shot are such great ideas and really something that can get, you know, just any random person interested. you know, I think NFTs in general are really good for that.

And Jake Brookman came on my show and talked about that about how he felt like NFTs were bringing in normal people. And it's true when it comes to me and my friends, once the NFT crazed, like a bunch of my friends are creative people. And so once that took off, I was kind of texting them and calling them and being like, hey, you have to check out this NOTE thing. Like you should put your artwork out this way. You should put your music out this way. You should, you know, blah, blah, blah. And so, you know, in that regard, I do feel like really the main, you know, missing catalyst to more people adopting crypto is pretty much frankly just more user-friendly products. Obviously, on Ethereum, the gas fees are a problem.

I think multiple people probably have heard me discuss now how when I went to buy the Kingslidly on NFT, I made $90 in gas fees, which was terrible. So, yeah, if, you know, if that could be resolved, then I'm sure. a lot more people would participate. But the other thing I would say is that I also still feel like the wallet situation is not fully figured out. And, you know, I mean, here I am just speaking from my few little forays and actually using this. Like, even though I cover this, well, personally also because of the book, I just haven't

been using the technology anywhere near as much as I would like. I think that's going to change soon now that I'm really wrapping things up with the book. But, you know, even with a few times that I've been working with this, I've. had bad experiences and I think some of you heard that I lost like $500 worth of within 15 minutes of getting the money. So that was really terrible. Terrible. Okay. Next question from Mike. I'd love to hear your favorite projects in Defi and how you perceive the defy space. I think I'll have to go with Wi-Fi or Wi-Fi maybe right now, just because the origin story of that was so great.

But another one that these are two, frankly, that I love, are Uniswap and Sushi Swap. And maybe also I love them because of that whole story about the vampire mining. That to me was just like such a gripping moment in crypto. And I feel like I watched every moment of that and was just really, really fascinated by the whole thing. and you know uniswap now is so dominant and v3 is obviously doing amazing and so i you know i i just yeah it's just frankly fascinating to me to see kind of how crypto loyalty works and um yeah and just kind of how people just fall in love with certain tokens or certain projects um and yeah, and how really, as long as people keep innovating, like, that's what will draw people in.

So I think those really interests me. Yeah, in general, what I will say about defy is that I really think that that will also draw in a certain type of person, you know, even as much as I was talking about the NFTs. I remember that I was explaining kind of like some of the coins on Coinbase to somebody. and pointed out like, oh, yeah, if you hold this coin, like, it gives you some X percent of interest. And, like, you know, it's a large percent of interest compared to what you would get at a bank. I mean, granted, it's because, you know, these are like untested coins and it's kind of like risky or whatever. But that person, like, just, you know, their eyes, like, lit up in a way where they got it. And so in that sense, like, yeah, I think Defi definitely will also get a lot of people interested.

So Lee Quinn asks, she said that she'd love to hear more about the business aspects of podcast production. Okay, so let's see, what would I say about that? Well, probably the main thing is that when it comes to the actual podcast hosting, it can be pretty inexpensive. Like, I literally don't even remember how much my mic was. It might have been like 80 bucks or something. and the hosting per month, I think, is like $20 or so. I don't even remember, you know, but just a lot of the basic things can be pretty nominal. However, what I will say is that random things can be very expensive.

Like, there was kind of this weird and random issue that came up around the trademark for Unchained, And the person that I was like tussling with over this, so they had never even used the trademark. Okay. So I don't know why they like cared so badly because I had actually used it. But anyway, or use the name. But then this person actually literally said to my lawyer at one point, something implying like, I just want to rack up the bills for your client. Like they just wanted to kind of make me pay these lawyers fees.

and my lawyer relayed this to me. So, you know, I would have to actually tally up how much that cost, but it probably cost me. I don't know. I'm just going to, I literally don't know, but it might be like, you know, a three or four months worth of what I normally pay out to my staff. So that's like a lot of money. So, yeah. So I just would say for the basics, it's like fine.

It's, you know, not terrible. probably depends on how big you go. You know, obviously at the beginning I didn't have as many people working for me. And even now, actually, thankfully, I've been able to trim it down because I have kind of one person who, like there was one role that initially I wanted to be one role. But then I couldn't find like one person to fill that. So then I had split it out into two roles for a while, but now it's back into one. So now I have a smaller group of people working for me. So yeah, so that's those are kind of my major tips.

But I would say, you know, right from the get-go, like it doesn't have to be a huge investment. All right. So we're going to take a break just to hear from the sponsors who make this show possible. But we will be right back with my AMA. TASOS lets you easily exchange smart money throughout our digital world. A self-upgradable blockchain with a proven track record, Tezos seamlessly adopts tomorrow's innovations without network disruptions today. Because of this adaptability, engineers, conservationists,

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Okay. Next question from Sato... Sushi Sarah, what was the most memorable thing you learned throughout these last five years from doing the podcast? So, okay, the number one thing that I remember learning was that the power of one's voice is much greater than just from writing articles and having people kind of like see your byline. And the way that I figured that out was I started a podcast in June 2016. and in, I forget what month it was, but it was basically like spring 2017, I think. I remember going to some conference and multiple people came up to me and said, oh, I love your podcast.

And by then, I'd been writing articles on crypto for two years and I'd only been doing the podcast for one year or slightly less, but they associated me with the podcast and they weren't mentioning the articles so much. And so, you know, and not only that, but, you know, I've been writing articles for like decades before then. So when I kind of figured out that, oh, they're suddenly just associating me with this podcast, it made me realize like, oh, yeah, you know, when it comes to me and my relationship to the podcast that I listen to all the time and really love, like, yeah, I feel like I kind of know the host. Like my, one of my favorite podcasts is the New York Times book review podcast. And, you know, it's like, I, I know the host. I kind of,

like, know a little bit about her life. And then there's, at a certain point, they have these different reviewers that often come on and they talk about what they reviewed that week. And then there's, like, different book editors that also come in or different, like, book beat reporters. Like, there's one who always talks about the book publishing industry. And so, you know, I just, I know all their voices and I kind of know a little bit about their lives and like what they like to read and stuff like that. And so anyway, for me, that was probably one of the main takeaways. But, you know, what's fascinating is as much as I've loved doing the podcast, I would still say writing is my first love. But I do feel that in a way, this mix of doing

the show and the book writing is just perfect for me. And it sort of reminds me of the days, there was like a long stretch where I was a freelance writer and also taught yoga. And it was like perfect because, you know, I would get my kind of private creative time when I was just doing my own thing. And then I would have this other time where I was interacting with other people because I'm an extrovert and, you know, that's what I like to do. So in that sense, yeah, I feel like, I feel like the mix is good for me. Okay. Another question, well, oh, three questions from Victor Boone. And I'll start with the first one. If you had time to start another podcast, topic or area would you cover? So I've thought about focusing, like doing something, whether it's,

yeah, I don't know if it would be a show or a newsletter or just a series of articles or I don't know what this would be. I literally have not had time to think about anything except the book, the podcast, like sleeping, eating and exercising for a long time. So anyway, if I were to start another podcast. Maybe I would do Defi or Dauze. As I've said, you know, I am very interested in those, but it might just be a little early for that. Defi is kind of like another virgin area that just has a lot of rabbit holes within it. And I feel like I would easily get sucked into that and be very fascinating. So could be that. Or if it were to be kind of non-crypto, I'm sure a bunch of you have heard me talk about my interest in like meditation and yoga and spiritual things.

And I also talked about how when I meditate I do chanting in Pranayama. Somebody was like, you're more Indian than me. And I, well, he was Indian, but that's all holdover from my yoga teaching days. Which, Victor also asked, which of your contributions to crypto are you most proud of? So I would have to say it's when people come up to me and say that because of my shows, they now work in the space. And I've had a bunch of people over the years who've come up to me and said that. And yeah, it just, I have to say it makes you feel really good that, you know,

they found something that they were passionate about and that through the work that I've done, that I was able to kind of like give them enough information and comfort that. this would be an area that would be worth jumping into. You know, and this is just a general message for everyone, you know, as I've kind of pursued what I just really loved these last few years, meaning, you know, as I became completely obsessed with crypto and really didn't want to do anything else ever again, I've had so much fun doing this. And so, yes, if you find something that you love and if you are listening to this and you

don't currently work in crypto, but you love it, then you should make the leap. I'm just going to tell you right now. Okay. And so let's see, Victor's last question is, what would need to happen in crypto? What level of success must it reach for you to feel mission accomplished and to do something else? So for me, it wouldn't be that something happened in crypto that made me decide to leave covering it. But it would definitely be something like, you know, covering it didn't feel like a challenge to me anymore. I didn't feel like I was like learning new things or that covering it became too easy for me. The general history of my work is if something becomes easy for me to do, I kind of lose all interest in it. So if that were to ever happen, I probably would be like,

next. Okay. Ed Rodriguez asks what the most surprising answer is to an interview. Oh, there are a couple. One, which I don't know if people caught this, but when I interviewed Vatolic in the live event, at one point he kind of like offhandedly said that the Ethereum Foundation really didn't talk about the price of ETH very much because, like early on, because they were worried about the SEC. And he may not have used those exact words. I should have looked up the exact words. Or maybe he just said they were worried about regulation.

But I was like, oh, he's like full on admitting that. Another surprising answer was when CIS was trying to say that finance is decentralized and he was comparing it to Bitcoin. Okay, that doesn't make any sense. And I'm sure he knows that. And I don't know how he thought he could pull the wool over all of our eyes with that. But yeah. A couple others, there was somebody who at one point refused to go on with the show when I said something and just was like, I quit.

I'm not doing this anymore. We managed to convince this person to continue. It took 35 minutes, but we did. And so that has been deleted out. But I was like, what is going on here? And then the last one, again, I'm not going to say who this was, but. I asked somebody what their organization did as their very first question. And they couldn't answer.

And so I had to teach to ask about their background first. And that was also a surprise to me, but it must have just been nerves. So, okay, next question. In your time as an interviewer, have you ever had one single moment that felt like an epiphany or a change in paradigm? And this is Cryptalista, who's asking me this. You know, the only thing I could really think of when I saw this question, and maybe this is just because this was like a pretty recent show, was when I interviewed Mark Cuban and I opened by asking him about some comments he'd made

where, you know, he just said he kind of thought he could see it being more likely that Eath would end up as a store of value. and when I asked him about that and he was kind of talking about how he felt that because it was used for more things like more people would want to buy it and hold it to use it for all the various things that they might use it for and and that that made sense to me you know I think the reason why I had never thought of it that way before was because the digital gold narrative and the source strength of Bitcoin's monetary policy, all of that makes a lot of sense. And it's like very easy

to grasp that. And so what Mark Cuban was saying was just kind of a like a really different way of looking at these crypto assets. And it wasn't something that I had really considered. You know, because obviously, ETH just at that time at least, you know, in a month we're going to see a change in the monetary policy. But at that time, or even, you know, you know, in a month we're going to see a change in the monetary policy, but at that time, or even now, which is now, he only came on the show a few months ago, it doesn't really have that kind of monetary policy. And so I think the idea of it as a store of value was kind of like a little bit more nebulous.

But I do think now, yeah, I can see what he's talking about. And I'll be interested to see how this whole thing plays out with the adoption of EIP-1559. Next question from David Stearns, which will be the three most important cryptocurrencies three years from now? So a good time frame that you pick there because it's a little tricky, right? There's going to be a lot that's going to happen in the next few years. I would probably still have to go with Bitcoin and Ether as the top two most important, frankly. I think it's for obvious reasons. Bitcoin obviously has the greatest adoption.

Ether has the second greatest adoption. And those two aren't exactly competitive. So in that regard, yeah, I just feel like they're going to keep going kind of maybe in the way that they have. You know, obviously, it does have the scaling issues. But in a way, those are being resolved. I'm sure some of you heard that Kane Warwick and Kyle Samani do look at Salana as being a potential real competitor to Ethereum and definitely taking, you know, potentially taking market share. And, you know, for sure, I will be interested to see how this plays out. I did see a bunch of tweets recently about a lot of interest in this Lana hackathon and a lot could

change in a few years. But at the moment, you know, just with the whole Ethereum ecosystem and the developer activity there, you know, right now it definitely looks like that would still maintain its number two spot. And so for number three, I actually, number three was the tricky one, right? it's like what could that be and hopefully this isn't cheating but because you you did term it as cryptocurrencies but my thought frankly was it's going to be a staple coin and so i was i think i'm going to put my money on us dc i know that at this moment in time it makes more sense to put your money on usd t um and it very well could be usd t actually now that i'm thinking about this more i'm

like I should put my money in USD because, um, so, okay, let me just back up. So the reason why I initially was thinking maybe I would say USC for the third spot is because I do feel like, you know, obviously more regulation is coming. And so that's why we are seeing that USDC is kind of becoming more widely adopted, uh, like the, the pace at which it's being adopted is accelerating. Um, but then, you know, if you look at things like finance where, um, the regulatory status is like a little bit less clear, you know, I would say USD may be falls in the same bucket, then, you know, that a lot of people want to play in that space. So it really could be USDT. And, and right now, USET does kind of like at least have the regular reports that they have

to make to the New York AG. And so in that regard, like, there's just, there's, there's, there's probably going to be a little bit more comfort using it. I mean, Granted, I know some people when they looked closely at what exactly was backing in, and it's not at all what it was originally promised to me. I'm sure that gives some people pause. But, you know, because of what I was saying about how a lot of people kind of want to play in that more nebulous regulatory space, who knows? It could be USDT still.

So we'll have to see. Okay. Sledge asks, how do you land your guests? Is it easier given your success or harder than ever with crypto economy and culture on fire? You know, I will say that honestly, in recent months, I have probably put a little bit less effort into the podcast than I would normally. And so I do feel that since I haven't given my full effort, that I might have more success if I was giving my full effort. effort. And so, yeah, I have been kind of looking for like people that are a little bit easier to book, frankly, just because I kind of needed as much time as I could get for for the book.

But I don't know if my success has changed at all in terms of, or changed the, changed my ability to get guests or not. I think what I will say is that there's a lot more specialization and I haven't really specialized. And so in that regard, I think that in certain circles, if somebody's like in Eath, then they may not know me so much as, you know, a podcast that only covers ETH or if somebody's like really only into Bitcoin, then they may know another outlet that only focuses on that as opposed to me. So in that regard, I'm sure it, frankly, it helps me with some guests and it hurts me with other guests. But it's not something I really think about because I just have to do what I am comfortable with doing and, you know, just

pursue my own vision of things. And frankly, you know, it's working out fine. I am looking forward to, you know, not having to spend so much time on the book and to really kind of get back into the show and kind of into the news happening now because I do feel like I've been a little bit out of the loop compared to, you know, previous times. All right, Gabriel asks, I'm looking forward to your book. Will be featured in any more documentaries in the future? Okay, at the moment, no, because, you know, there have been a lot of requests, actually, but I have not really been doing anything extraneous beyond the book and podcast. So as far as things being in the works now, no. Roman asks, do you think you already interviewed Satoshi? No. And also asked, do you think he would recognize

Satoshi if you interviewed him, her, or them? So if it were just kind of like a random show and I was just interviewing them and I was interviewing them for some other reason and, you know, not because I thought they were Satoshi or something. I may not. If I, I have thought, oh, would I ever want to try to investigate who it was? The only thing is that would just take so long. And yeah, I just, I don't know. So I have a feeling I probably won't. try to investigate that. So yeah, you know what? I probably will not recognize this person ever because I would need to do a lot of research

and come up with the theory first. And I do not have that now. So if I ever end up interviewing Satoshi, I will probably not know it. All right. Song says, if you could be anywhere in the world right now, where would you want to be and why? So I can actually

give too many details on this. But let's just say, that there was something that happened in the book. And it took place at this very fancy, nice place in a very, very optimal location. And my fact checker and I were looking at this. And I was like, whoa, like this is kind of like a paradise. And he made a joke basically saying, because the person who, shared this with me, you know, said like that it is possible to to book this place.

And, um, and so, yeah. So now the joke is like, oh, when I finish the book, I'm going to go to this, you know, lovely spot on the planet and just live this decadent and luxurious life. So we'll see. Um, okay. Manu asks, how would you advise someone without experience looking to get into the industry? So the main thing, and I think I've said this before on other shows, is that this whole space is just being built right now, right? It's not like there's all these rules that have been set up in these structures and it's not like things have been done this way for a gazillion years. Like, I don't know. I like to go to Italy a lot, but sometimes when you're there, it's kind of like this funny thing where you realize that they're, you know, it's like made in Italy means quality, right?

And so they're kind of like, they have this set, I know, mindset about how things should be done. And it's very funny to an American. But anyway, but here, when it comes to crypto, everything's really new. And so you just, you know, talk to anybody in crypto. They were working in some completely different field, not that long ago. So just think about how your skills are transferable. I mean, pretty much from any other industry, your skills are going to be transferable in some fashion. Yeah, I'm a journalist.

and, you know, what does writing have to do with cryptography and tokens and whatnot? Like, nothing, but, you know, I can cover what's going on. So the other thing I would say is, like, just get started. Don't be picky. You can kind of scan the landscape from whatever your first purchase and move into the perfect spot later. If you have ever heard Linda Shay's story, she started at Coinbase in compliance. And yeah, now she runs crypto hedge funds.

So, you know, it's a really different type of work that she's doing now, but she just got in, learned about it from where she was and then made her move into where she wanted to go after that. And the other thing I would say is if you jump into crypto, be creative and think big. Nothing's set in stone yet. And so don't think too hard about following the rules or just don't get caught up and stuff like that. just be creative. Let's make something new. Let's not do things the way that we have done in the past. Well, I kind of answered this already, but I'll just quickly cover these.

Dan Hanam asks what the most impactful episode was. That was definitely the one with Yanmi Park, where she talked about her life in North Korea and escaping, hugely, hugely impactful. And the most enjoyable recording, as I mentioned, was the one with Meltem and Jill. They just had me cracking up. ZW asks, who in crypto has been the hardest to interview slash meet? or someone you wish would return for another episode, but it hasn't returned your calls.

Roham Garagosli, this is a shout out to you. I've made a few different requests and been turned down for reasons I don't understand, even though he and I also shared, like, personally friendly messages over something totally unrelated. So I would love to have you back. All right, Jor Law says, what has this experience meant for you? And what are your best memories of the last five years? The main thing that I would say is what I've learned is if you really want something,

you should just go for it. Don't be afraid. Just do what it is that your heart calls you to do. You don't know where it's going to lead you. And, you know, I see a lot of people who kind of are in jobs that make them unhappy and they're kind of scared to leave and blah, blah, blah. But what's the worst that's going to happen, you know? Okay, so maybe you try something and maybe it fails.

well, you can always get another job or, you know, you can pivot and do something else. And, you know, like, I don't know how many of you are also a fan of the writer Elizabeth Gilbert, but she gave this great talk that I have listened to multiple times. And, you know, in it, she just says, like, you know, if there's something that you want to do, I mean, for her, the way the talk is famous, it's like she's talking about creating. If you have something that you want to create, you know, what's your alternative? it's to just keep your life the same as it is and to not grow and not change and not have this experience. And, you know, frankly, my attitude is like, why did we all come to this planet if it's

not to create and take risks and have adventures? And in my mind, there are no failures. They're only lessons. So that's my big takeaway, frankly, from doing this podcast. And for those of you who don't know the story, there was a moment, you know, for, started the podcast. me and then they dropped it after the first season and I had to keep it going and I loved doing it so much. I worked really hard to find a sponsor. I was sure that I would find a sponsor and I finally did. And, you know, it was that for that year where I had that sponsor that was for the year 2017 when the whole crypto space took off and, you know, the downloads really grew on the show. So it was, I'm really, really glad that I just, there was something in me. I was like, I love doing this. I

have to keep doing it. I'm not going to stop. And, you know, I'm glad that I did that. So, and look where I am five years later. Oh, and Jor also has my best memory of the last five years. This is very recent. Someone emailed me recently and said that a podcast episode I did not that long ago inspired them to change their job. So that was, it was really lovely. What has surprised you most about how the space has evolved over the last five years? This is from Show Me the Crypto. I will say the NFT thing kind of came out of nowhere for me, but maybe I was wrapped up in my book and not really paying that much attention

of what was going on. I mean, I did cover the first people sale in the fall, the first big one for, I think it was like 3.6 million. And I knew at that time, like definitely something was happening, but I still feel like I kind of lost track of it before just all of that, you know, came out of the woodwork in the winter. what I would say also about the way the space has evolved in the last five years is just it's gotten so big and diverse in terms of the types of things that are going on that I

definitely have been thinking a lot more about specializing in certain areas at least for certain products in a way that I never did before. All right. Last question from Jackie T. Other than covering crypto, what journalistic pursuits slash goals you have in mind for the future? I want to write more books. and I will. All right.

I think that wraps up for the five-year anniversary episode. Thanks to everyone who sent in questions. And thanks so much for listening to my show throughout these years. I cannot say at all what this show and what you all have meant to be meant to me. I really truly appreciate that you all have taken the time to listen to me and to support my work. I'm thankful to all of the sponsors as well who have supported the show all these five years. and frankly, you guys, I'm super excited for you all to read my book, which is where I've really

been putting most of my effort these last few years. And so, yeah, I'm excited to share that all with you. Thank you all again for listening these last few years. And here's to more fun, crazy, and intellectually stimulating times in crypto. Unchained is produced by me, Laura Shin, with help from Anthony Yun, Daniel Ness, and Mark Murdoch. Thanks for listening. You know,