Unchained - Unconfirmed: What Could the Crypto Media Do Better? Four Journalists Discuss - Ep.301

Episode Date: December 24, 2021

Merry Christmas (Eve)! For this special episode of Unchained, three other crypto journalists and I discuss their favorite stories from the past twelve months, how they would grade crypto journalism in 2021, and what they are looking forward to covering in 2022. Show highlights: what stories Michael, Michael, Jeff, and I will remember from a ~busy~ 2021  why 2021 is “clearly the biggest year” yet for the industry how CoinDesk, Forbes, and Decrypt can improve their news coverage in 2022 what Michael, Michael, Jeff, and I think about all the negative energy directed at journalists from the crypto and tech space how mainstream media can do a better job covering crypto predictions for what the biggest stories of 2022 will be Thank you to our sponsors! Avado: ava.do Crypto.com: https://crypto.onelink.me/J9Lg/unconfirmedcardearnfeb2021  Nodle: https://bit.ly/3AXGydJ    Michael Casey  Twitter: https://twitter.com/mikejcasey CoinDesk: https://www.coindesk.com/ Unchained Appearances ​​Why Bitcoin Now: Michael Casey and Niall Ferguson on How Bitcoin Fits in the History of Money https://unchainedpodcast.com/why-bitcoin-now-michael-casey-and-niall-ferguson-on-how-bitcoin-fits-in-the-history-of-money/ Live from SXSW: Michael Casey and Paul Vigna, Co-Authors of The Truth Machine, on Why the SEC Has Issued Subpoenas to ICOs https://unchainedpodcast.com/live-from-sxsw-michael-casey-and-paul-vigna-co-authors-of-the-truth-machine-on-why-the-sec-has-issued-subpoenas-to-icos/   Michael del Castillo Twitter: https://twitter.com/delRayMan Forbes: https://www.forbes.com/   Jeff Roberts Twitter: https://twitter.com/jeffjohnroberts Decrypt: https://decrypt.co/  Unchained Appearances Will Coinbase Do a Token Offering When It Goes Public? https://unchainedpodcast.com/will-coinbase-do-a-token-offering-when-it-goes-public/ Coinbase’s S-1: The Number That May Make the Exchange Nervous https://unchainedpodcast.com/coinbases-s-1-the-number-that-may-make-the-exchange-nervous/ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Hi, everyone. Welcome to Unconfirmed. The show that reveals how the marquee names in crypto are reacting to the week's top headlines and can see the inside scope on what they see on the horizon. I'm your host, Laura Shin, a journalist with over two decades of experience. I started covering crypto six years ago, and as a senior editor at Forbes, was the first mainstream meter reporter to cover cryptocurrency full-time. This is the December 24th episode of Unconfirmed. Tired of your exchange taking 25% of your staking profits? The Avato blockchain, computer allows you to stake Ethereum and other crypto at home and keep 100% of the rewards. Go to aVA.do. Wish you could earn crypto but don't want to spend thousands on hardware? Just download the Nodalcash app on your smartphone. Visit nodle.io-unconfirmed. That's Nod-L-E.com to start earning Nodalcash today. With the crypto.com app, you can buy, earn, and spend crypto in one place. Download and get $25 with the code Laura, link in the description.

Today, since it's the eve of a holiday, we're going to have a casual conversation among crypto journalists, and we're all going to discuss the year on crypto and other issues involving the media, plus the year ahead. Joining me are Michael Casey, Chief Content Officer at Coin Desk, Jeff Roberts, executive editor at DeCryft, and Michael Del Castillo, senior editor of Forbes. Welcome, Michael Michael and Jeff. Hello there. I'm filing into London and somebody's ringing my doorbell right now. That's all right.

Okay, well, great start to the episode. The professionals really have us down. So just a heads up before we discuss all things, Crypto Media, everybody. There will be no weekly news recap this week. week. Okay. So actually, Michael Delcissue, do you need to go get that or? No, my amazing wife has discreetly snuck downstairs and seen to whatever that was. Okay, perfect. All right. So we will start with an open-ended question. What do you guys feel like

were the big crypto news stories of the past year? And to help people distinguish voices, I will call on Michael Casey first since you were, you know, you're overseeing everything at coin desk. So yeah, one of you. The entire thing. So, so, um, do, am I allowed to give a bunch or do I have to give one? And like, because I don't want to steal what these guys. I hate me. There's a, you just want one for me. I mean, you can just maybe do two. You're two biggest. Okay. The two biggest. I would say, um, the China crackdown on, on, on mining, coin mining was a pretty big story. Um, and I think probably just the NFT Zyxicon.

guys just the sort of the emergence of this whole new mainstreaming phenomenon that none of us I wasn't certainly ready for those would be my two biggest stories do you want to discuss them or we're just going to like put the name put them out there to start with well why don't why don't we have Jeff go next and then we'll call him my goal to tell you last and then we'll we can all discuss all of them okay well now that mr. Casey's picked off the big ones so let me think I've seen you already in this you guys you're going to stand that right All right. All right.

I'll take the scraps. Actually, they're not. I think equally big stories are the emergence of public companies into crypto. I mean, Coinbase and Robin Hood having IPOs, the likes of Square and Twitter charging into the space. I think that's kind of shaped and shifted what's going on. And the other big story, I think, too, is the emergence of Dow's and Web 3 going mainstream. You know, remember this flickered in 2017, also late in December amidst a huge boom. but they kind of flickered out quickly.

And I think, you know, we've seen the reemergence of Dow's is a very big story. And Michael Del Castillo? Those are all awesome ones. I'm going to second the public companies issue. I've obviously been tracking that for years. The Forbes Blockchain 50, this is our fourth year. It used to distinguish being on that list that you had to be vowed a billion dollars or more. And after this year, it's like, who cares?

Everything's valued a billion dollars or more. So what we used to consider a huge milestone is just wrote now. And that chain just blows my mind. So I have to second that one. I'm torn between Bitcoin mining NFTs, but I'm going to throw a new one out there and say the venture capital space in 2020. was just epic. We did our best to track the 12 largest venture capital rounds of all time throughout

the course of the year. And in one week, we had to change the list three times. And nine of the 10 largest rounds in the history of crypto happened this year. It's over $12 billion total just in the top 10 investments of all time. And that just blows my mind. I think that the impact that in the venture capital world made in 2021 will not stop being felt for a decade. When you look at that money and you look at how long it takes to build and to invest that money at a corporate level, the ripple effects are just, you cannot overestimate them. I love this because you guys, I had written what I thought were the big stories of the year,

and I definitely missed several of the ones that you mentioned. But I'm surprised nobody said what I thought, this was one of my top two, was regulation. I feel like the big story from the past year, and it's going to extend into 22, but in a different way where I feel like it's going to perhaps become more of a political force. And we started to see glimmers of this, but I feel, like the fight over the infrastructure bill, obviously, and kind of really galvanize the community and kind of woke up a bunch of Congress people

about the importance of this. And kind of, you know, we saw clearly in the hearing from last week that there's definitely a lot more understanding and nuance of the technology than we've previously seen from these different Congress people. You know, the Stable Coins hearing may be a little bit less so. But I do think that what is happening is that probably we're going to see more politicians kind of clue into the force that is the crypto community

and wake up to it in a very political way, meaning they're probably going to realize there's a lot of money to be had here. And so I'm kind of looking forward to seeing like, oh, how's it going to play out in the midterms next year, you know? And Jeff, I saw that you had to crypt or I don't know if it was just you. It might be you and Dan that write these together. But, you know, you have this piece about how you feel like Democrats, well, not all of them, obviously, I wouldn't say necessarily that I think crypto is clearly a partisan issue at this point. It's really not. It feels kind of like a mixed thing. It just feels like for the people that are more vocally pro crypto, they tend to be Republicans. And for the people who are more vocally anti-crypto,

they tend to be Democrats. But you definitely have bipartisan support on both sides. It's just maybe the louder voices fall along those lines. But yeah, I'm definitely interested to see how that's going to shake out. And then the other two that I had on my list that neither of you mentioned were El Salvador adopting Bitcoin as legal tender. And, you know, I know even the Bitcoin community has kind of like mixed feelings about, you know, which country it was and how they're implementing it. But still, that's that's kind of like a really crazy story that we have, you know, just kind of of everyday Salvadorans that are now having to deal with this currency or at least getting education about it even if they're not transacting in it.

And then, well, actually, another one that I forgot to write down, but along the same lines. We got two. How are you letting a three for it? Well, I'll just, I'm just doing that. All right. You're the host, your prerogative, I suppose. Come on, give us your third one, Laura. But, well, before I got to the third, the related one I just thought of, that's so similar

to El Salvador is Axi Infinity in the Philippines, although I guess you could say that also was 2019. But still, again, like kind of a non-typical, you know, cohort of people that are really getting into crypto. And then the last that I had was the Bitcoin Futures ETF. I know that the crypto community, again, felt like this isn't the right vehicle, but just the fact that at least there's something now that, you know, I think is a momentous step and definitely sets the stage for the coming fight over when and how this next spot

Bitcoin ETF is going to play out. Laura, I mean, just to interrupt you there in this. spirit of the conversation that you said you kind of wanted to have. Yeah. Like those are seven or eight amazing events that happened that we were pretty quickly able to put together without any forethought. I feel like every year we say it's the most important year in the history of crypto. Can we say that this year?

Like how big is this year when you look back at those events and compared to last years? Or does it just always feel that way in crypto? Well, I think because, you know, it's like, you know, when you're looking at any new thing, any new startup or project or whatever, and it's like, oh, you know, it made 1,000 percent gains that first year. Well, yeah, okay, it's starting from a small base. So I feel like, yes, it's going to be like this for a while. Yeah, yeah.

This is clearly the biggest year. And going back to what Mike was saying about the venture capital, remember like we'd get stories like so-and-so raised $5 million. Like, oh, boy, let's write that. And now it's like just $5 million or $50. And who cares? You know, it's just the numbers are so big and so crazy. It's just, you know, I can't keep up.

Oh, yeah. Even before that, I remember when, like, if a middle-level VP of a company that my mom and dad had heard of said the word Bitcoin on stage, if we did an article. Right. Well, to be fair, there are some outlets that still do that. That's true. But wait, wait, speaking of big numbers. By the way, you guys, I've just been thinking there have been so many defy hacks for hundreds of millions of dollars. I mean, it's kind of like it's crazy. It's just like, whoa, or maybe not even all defy. Some of them are even centralized exchanges. But it's like, wow, this is like such an everyday occurrence now. Like this is kind of crazy. And yeah, like another thing that I feel like for the regulation story, I'm a little bit like, why is it that the regulators are so focused on these, you know, like have. Like, have.

an intermediary doing the reporting and like they're not looking at all these crazy hacks going on all the time it's kind of like don't you realize that that's like the real issue here um so i wonder yeah it kind of sometimes it does pop up in their commentary because they do they recognize that there's sort of the the security issues around smart contracts and and so forth but you're right it's it's largely focused on you know protecting the little guy protecting the investors uh and the intermediary's role in that but i also think like one way to think about that like we're sort of blaze about it, right? I mean, I just see hack and you just kind of forget about it.

Those of us who were around for Mount Gocks in, you know, 2014, just remember at that state, the biggest story that the whole world was going to fall apart because there was this hack. And in some respects, it did it. It really had a big impact on the outlook for Bitcoin and everything else. But the sector and the space is so much bigger. We've just been throwing around these numbers, right? So a $200 million hack is kind of tiny compared to, you know, FDX is 30,

billion dollar valuation or whatever you want to call out, right? So not saying FDX was X, which is just like that, that juxtaposition just shows you the difference in scale right now. In a similar vein there, Michael, the Mount Gox hack, obviously, but also the Dow collapse. When the original Dow collapsed, I mean, it was a blow-by-blow cover. Every day there were three or four stories. I've read a really good book about that thing.

Who was that? I can't. I'm taking my tongue. It comes out February 22nd, everybody. It's called the Triptopians. I had a lucky early read on that. It is a very good book, Laura. It's an excellent book.

It is very good. Yeah, I had the pleasure of reading it too. And I love the kind of heroes and villains, too, from the early Ethereum days, too. I'm sure you'll be talking about Charles Haskinson. We're the heroes. It's even worse than thoughts. It's good to see your patients pay off there. But in all seriousness, the Dow was a huge deal.

And what I like about the juxtaposition between that and now is like when the Dow collapsed, people were talking about how Tao's failed, how the Dow concept died. And it was so naive. It was so short-sighted. And it represented just such a misunderstanding of the progress and evolution of open-source technology. And now, like, when a defy application gets hacked, we're not hearing as much hand-waving about the death of defy. And I'm not sure if that's because, you know, the world has become so used to such big numbers in crypto that they're numb to these relatively small losses. Or if it's because, dare I say, the readers are getting a little bit more bad.

battle tested and perhaps the skeptics are a little less likely to throw gasoline on the fire. So like I think that it's actually, obviously the defy hacks are a weakness of vulnerability and a sign of immaturity. But I think the reaction to the defy hacks could actually be seen as a positive. Yeah. I mean, I think it. Oh, go ahead. I was just as I said it interestingly then, Michael, you talked about like the battle, battle testing and the fact that, you know, it seems to get rolled into the, you know, development of open source systems. And I think that that's,

I mean, I think we're still a long way from mainstreamers looking at things like a hack and going, oh, that's actually a kind of a, not exactly a feature, but it's something that you learn and grow from, right? It's part of the iterative process.

But, but that said, I think it's starting, for those of us who have been around this for a while, you start to see how, this is, whether you like it or not, something that happens in these,

open systems, and it is part of the growth process. The hack, the hole gets filled, something gets built on top of it. And the Dow is a classic example of that. We have all these DAOs now being rolled out that are functional, and they're not seen as something that have necessarily, unless you're Elizabeth Warren, I suppose, see them as systemic risks. And so it is, you can look at it from a broader perspective and say, this is how anti-fragile systems develop.

I don't know that mainstreamers talk like that, though, right? They still tend to see any big problem, mistake, as a sign of impending doom, rather than the fact that in an evolutionary environment, it's actually how the whole system eventually gets stronger, whether you like it or not. But I do think that's what's happening. One thing I will say is, like, back at the time of the Dow, you know, 14.6% of all Eath went into the Dow.

I mean, it was like, I remember a source. I don't remember if I put this in the book, but somebody was like, oh, at that time, the Dow was Ethereum. It was like, you know, so many people had put their money into this. And yeah, now when there's these different hacks, like, it's definitely not existential to any chain, whatever chain it happens on. However, you know, I guess what I was just thinking of when I mentioned that in terms of regulation, like I do keep thinking, oh, I wonder if an SRO maybe is the best way to handle that because

it's really a code issue. and there should be probably standards around, you know, deploying different contracts or whatever it might be that could protect against that. But it's hilarious that, Michael, you were saying, like, oh, it's part of the iterative process. And I think maybe you met from the developer's perspective. But also, I moderated this panel recently where I raised the question of rug pulls with NFTs. And Maria Paola Fernandez was on my panel. And she was like, oh, she was like, no, we shouldn't protect those people. Like, that's how you learn.

And they kind of had this very Darwinian notion of how people should learn good behaviors when it comes to protecting your private keys and not being a victim of a fishing attack and all the stuff. And I was like, oh, wow, okay, you don't want to put in any protections at all. I was like, all right. Not what I was expecting, but fascinating answer. So anyway, clearly, yeah, the space has matured a lot. And, yeah, we will have to see where things go. So wait, so we just named a bunch of big stories. Do you guys want to kind of give any verdicts on how you think the crypto media handled

its reporting? And why don't we also distinguish between crypto media versus mainstream media? I think, yeah, all of us came from mainstream media. Oh, Michael's still in the mainstream media, but Michael, Casey and Jeff and I all have mainstream media backgrounds. So I think we can discuss both. Who wants to go first? Any particular story or just generally?

Yeah, yeah. So from the crypto media side, you know, I think like it's actually sometimes the opposite of what the problem is on the mainstream side. And as I still think that we live in our bubbles too much and do not do a good enough job contextualizing these sometimes complicated things to the outside world and sort of explaining why it's important. So, you know, sometimes, you know, if it's a discussion around the China story and the departure of mining, you know, we'll be out there digging into stories about the hash rate, whether it's going to rebound or not. Whereas the mainstream is focused on a completely different sort of story about how, you know, authorities are going after bad guys in China. So I feel like there's a need on our side still to figure out the way to sort of responsibly talk to what we call CoinDest, the stakeholder audience, the people who are really invested in this and make sure that you're continuing to inform their needs. But at the same time, making stories accessible.

I think it just applies to pretty much everything we do, to be honest. It's still all of us. I mean, I actually, you know, I mean, all. look, both DeCrypton Forbes, both of you guys do, I think, do a very good job of making your stories readable. But it's a challenge for everybody. That's a general comment, really. Well, I think the shift is, you know, I remember once in a time such a fortune. You have to defend why you're writing about it in the first place.

You know, it's like, you know, I almost apologize for writing about crypto because it was seen as exotic or a novelty or this or that. But now, you know, everyone's writing about crypto all the time. I think the crypto-first publications have really sort of, you know, shined this year. And I think most of the mainstream ones are doing good job, too. I think the journal does excellent coverage. Bloomberg does too. The New York Times less. The only one that really bothers me out there is the F.T, which seems still sort of stuck in this attitude of like, you know, I've said this before.

But I remember I'm old enough from when the Internet was first becoming popular. And there used to be kind of a genre of writer who'd sit there and make fun of the Internet and say, ho-ho, it's for criminals and perverts. Ha-ha. You know, and that was sort of that schick. And the FT still does that, like that their Alphabill thing. It's just like not funny anymore. They just sort of start to seem antiquated and not really funny.

Maybe that's just me, but. I have a question because, like, I have to say that when I started covering the space and I started reading the Alphaville blog more regularly, I was so confused because it just seemed like you were saying like just commentary, but not necessarily facts. And then I eventually realized, oh, it's like just blogging opinion, but not. reporting. So, you know, maybe that's their opinion. But I don't, when I read the Alphaville blog in particular, I don't know about the rest of the FT coverage, but I now look at it as like, you know, similar to like a Krugman or whatever, like just an opinion columnist. And I don't look at it as,

I mean, I know the, I guess the reason I was confused was because they're also reporters. So it's like they have this gig where they write their opinion, but then they also do reporting. And I don't know. I didn't know what to make. Well, Michael, Casey, you've worked. of the high up of the Wall Street Journal. I mean, my theory at the FT is that there's someone at the top who likes that stuff and is encouraging them to do it because the FT overall is excellent, but the Alphabill stuff is just, you know, how do you explain it? I actually don't know that it's a top-down thing. I think Isabel Kaminska is the driver of it. I mean, she's a very good writer and she's, you know, extremely sharp. And she ran with this thesis that the whole thing is

a big, you know, ridiculous fraud and there's just too much hype and everything else. And And so what she says is true, right? But she's, unfortunately, it's everywhere you go, you can find some truth if you just narrow the focus. But she doesn't step back and see the big picture of development, all the stuff we've been talking about, this incredible growth reflecting the development. But I think that she's such a personality and she kind of ran with the anti-crypto line early on in FTA Alphaville. And that became their shtick. That's my take. I don't, it doesn't feel to me as if it was a top down decision necessarily, but I might be wrong. Well, you know, I mean, clearly there are negative things that are happening in crypto and we also all report on them as well.

So, you know, if that is the niche that she wants to stake out, that's definitely her prerogative. But yeah, like I said, at first I was just confused because I didn't understand that it was more of a commentary type thing. And I was like, wait, how can she say these things? Where's the reporting? I was like, you know, where's her sources? But anyway, all right, so in a moment we're going to discuss some kind of juicier topics like animosity that sometimes the media sees from crypto and tech people. But first, a quick word from the sponsors who make this show possible. Did you know that exchanges take up to a 25% cut on your staking rewards? But you don't need an exchange to stake. You can run a validator at home.

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What do you make of sometimes the negative comments that we can see from different people in crypto and tech towards journalists? I love it. That's so great. Yeah, it's tremendous. We thrive on it. Oh, all sorts of thoughts on this. You know, there's Silicon Valley and not to Silicon Valley, but also just anybody investing in this space. Confuses wealth and the accumulation of that with somehow being truthful or just owning the facts, right? You couldn't possibly wrong. because look how much money I've made. And it sort of builds this sort of a very one-dimensional way of like arguing, you know. It's almost like the sophisticated version of have fun staying poor, which has just got to be the most ugly meme one could ever dream up, right?

And so I find that that inculcates a kind of a us and them view. Look at us. So we know what we're doing. We've proven it every time. Look how wealthy we've become mindset. And look, I think there is, like I go back and forth with Balaji a lot about this sort of stuff. Valaghi Shrinivasan, who has an interesting take on what media should be doing. I know he's had some sort of pretty big fights with some crypto and tech journalists in the valley as well.

But there is some realm. And it's funny because biology is always promoting Paul's. in my book, The Truth Machine, is some sort of, like, factor in his thesis. But, and that is that there's a world in which media starts to, could start to become more decentralized in the way that it addresses the idea of what truth is, that there is a, there is a consensus way of thinking that, you know, the crypto and blockchain worlds embrace and that that's the future of media. And I find that a very interesting idea, and I do think, in fact, the failure of a lot of mainstream media to litany of mistakes that have been made over the years somehow do reflect the kind of centralized nature of media dominance.

On the other hand, and this is the big butt that needs to come into this, right? this this assumption that that you hear so often that journalists are in it for some motive that there is uh because because you know DCG owns owns coin desk and so the reason we wrote about Grayscale or we didn't write about that or I mean was that somebody else I think you know Carl Kilt Gibson one of my favorite trolls uh was was attacking us because one of the DCG portfolio companies was in our most influential list, you know, and that was obviously because Barry Silbert told us to write that and put it in there, right? That just becomes this kind of accepted wisdom. And I find that infuriating, that there isn't a deeper understanding

in our space of the kind of norms of behavior and in some respects the kind of professional pressure that journalists are on not to do that sort of thing, that there's a lot. That This is sort of, you know, an aspect of our, of our profession that it's taken extremely seriously. Yeah. The knee-jerk assumption that there's a ulterior motive is something that's very hard to break. And I think, just to jump in there, Michael, I'm sometimes torn with that assumption in its own right. Because it's hard to tell the earnestness of the critics sometimes. And like in writing on the Slack channel or the telegram channel or the webinar interaction software that happens to be, they might be claiming that they think that such and such is biased or unreported or whatever.

But I can't help but wonder if it's just more shills out there. I doubt the I doubt the the genuineness of a lot of the criticism in the first place But that makes me I do want to expand on that just a little bit though because I don't want it to sound overly negative And perhaps in a counterintuitive sort of way so like 12 years ago You didn't see IBM stock owners shilling their stocks in the comments of mainstream media outlets. That just wasn't how business was done. And most retail investors didn't own IBM stock.

They just couldn't buy it even if they wanted to. The fact that these shills exist at all, the fact that they're so vocal at all, though incredibly annoying, and I will finish this range, rant by saying why I think it's actually harmful, isn't necessarily totally negative. Like the fact that these people have a voice, the fact that they care, the fact that they are investing, the fact that they are participating in the economy is new. And in a lot of ways, I think that they're exercising their enthusiasm and their sense of skin in the game in a kind of childish way.

They're doing it in a way that someone that hasn't had the opportunity to do it before and is really excited about pumping up their asset. So if I want to give the haters sort of the benefit of the doubt, I do like to tell myself that, you know, they're new investors. They're really excited about having the opportunity to invest. And blockchain and any, asset built on top of it that lets the public buy is a way to make that happen. So you could see that hate as a positive thing. The haters on the negative side, though, I will say helping grow a

young team at Forbes of new crypto writers and helping veteran writers write their first ever crypto stories, they're daunted by these, the visceral attacks. It scares people away. Like, you know, we all laugh about it. We've been writing about it for years and years and years now. And I think we were able to, we're like the frogs that didn't realize they were boiling because they were in the water as it started to get hot. And now, like, when we look at the boiling water around. It's like, oh, yeah, this is normal. But the new people who come in, the young writers who write their first Bitcoin article, their first, God forbid, XRP article, you know, the veteran reporters that have been talking shit for years that finally start writing about something and

they get attacked. You know, they're not used to it. They don't know what this is. And whatever agenda these shills think they're fulfilling by being so hateful, especially to young reporters, they're hurting themselves. They're hurting the future of storytelling and they're discouraging young writers from getting in. So I think it is a nuanced issue and I definitely like the fact that our readers feel engaged and empowered and finally have a say in their finances the way they did in the past, but my God, I hope they grow up, but they're going to scare away an entire generation of young reporters that didn't grow up boiling in the water.

Well, that's probably there. I'm not so worried about the reporters being scared away. It's part of our job to have thick skin. Like, you know, you've got to learn to take it and deal with it. I just think the larger culture of kind of dunking and hatred, I mean, I think was promulgated in part by, you know, President Trump putting that out there and making that a norm. I think journalists, part of our job is just to kind of be tough enough to take it.

And if you can't, well, you should probably get enough. other job. Maybe that's incensitive. I'm more worried about how this culture in terms of bringing people into crypto. It's so dominated by like, you know, not dominated, but there's, you know, nastiness and insults and the racism and the sexism. I just don't think that benefits the broader crypto community. And, you know, in the past, I think media had a bigger chance to check that and put, tell, put these people in their place. But it's, it's hard now because you're right, Michael Des Castillo. Like, everyone's got a platform. Everyone's a media. So what you do about that? I don't know. Yeah, my take on the,

Yeah, some like insults and whatever you want to call it that sometimes comes from that crowd is, you know, sort of like Michael Delcestio said. So you guys probably know if you listen to my show, like I'm big into meditation and like I used to teach yoga and whatever. And, you know, this is something definitely, it's not like an easy mantra to just suddenly kind of what's the word, inhabit. But I really try to take or try not to take things personally. like there is a really great book that I read about that called The Four Agreements by Don Miguel Ruiz. And, you know, like there was this moment earlier this year or I forgot, yeah, it was I think in the spring or something. By the way, I was like so knee deep in book stuff. Like I just could not even, I didn't have the time to deal with this issue. But as you recall, somebody made a clip of an interview that I did with Michael Saylor where he, Like, if you listen to the full interview, what happened was I asked him about that time early on in his career where he had a run in with the SEC. Like, his company, for those of us who recall, those days, was like super high flying in the early dot com days.

And then it had this major crash because there was this like accounting scandal and stuff. So I asked him about it. And at that point in the conversation, he kind of started turning against me ever since like it's very subtle to hear in the interview. but so when he took a clip of that, and it's this moment where I had actually gotten this question from a listener, from a Twitter follower who was like, oh, is Michael Saylor going to kind of take some profits when the next Bitcoin cycle reaches its top and then buy in later? And I asked him this, but it wasn't even like something I would recommend he do or anything like that.

It was not my position. It's just like a good question, you know. But he turned it personally and was like saying, Laura, it's going to go forever. And so now people constantly tweet this at me. And this was like the video clip, I forget how many views it got, but it was like very viral. And I think there were like Reddit posts about it and whatever. But, you know, I just tweeted.

I was like, so the person who made this clip said at the very beginning, I've never listened to Laura's show. And she's a traitor and influencer. And I was like, oh, this person like literally has no idea what I do for a living. He doesn't know that I constantly ask questions that do not reflect my personal beliefs because that's my job. And so I just tweeted. I was like, you know, I know people keep tweeting this at me and whatever, but like this has nothing to do with me. The person who made this clip thought that I have like a totally different role from what I have. They think that this is like a question that reflects my personal views. It doesn't and blah, blah, blah. And I was like, okay, whatever.

And so people still tweet this at me. Like, I really just don't care. It just doesn't bother me. you know, thankfully I haven't had some of my sources who are these big names who do take issue with the media, take any issue with me. But, you know, I mean, if that's their opinion, they're, you know, they're free to have it. I personally, you know, maybe this reflects my Midwestern roots, but I try very hard, and this is also maybe like a value instilled in me by my parents to not ever try to assume something about somebody just based off of any fact I might know about them.

You never know what people are dealing with. You never know where they're coming from. And certainly there are journalists who go out there and their intention is to do a hit piece. You know, I myself now that I'm being interviewed a little bit more, I've had one strange experience where let's just, you know, I'm not going to go into all the details on it. But I just, once the finished piece was done and knowing what the facts were and knowing what they chose to put in their piece. how it was basically not what the facts were. I was like, okay, that's really weird. But, you know, I guess they had their narrative. And, you know, I had this moment where I was like, okay, I could create a fight with them on Twitter. But the fact is, I don't know, I watched Twitter all day long. And it looks to me just like a bunch of egos fighting each other all day long. And like, I have zero interest in participating in that. Like, not at all. So I was like, all right, you know what? I'm just going to use my platform to push the facts and make sure people know the truth. And so in this one piece, that didn't happen, but whatever. And yeah, so I don't know, that's kind of my take.

The idea of FUD, right, that there's an assumption that by asking those questions, by, you know, questioning whether this or that is as good as it is, you are participating in some deliberate act of undermining the great cause of, you know, Bitcoin's, uh, relentless forward march right and it's just yeah it's in the thing that's hard to get through people's like no you need these this questioning you need transparency in fact it's it's built into the ethos of crypto that there is transparency there is questioning so if everybody's cheerleading it's not going to be a good system right and and and yet yeah if you're not that i think this is one of the the broader problems of the you know of the memes of the of the you know have fun staying

poor or we're all going to make it right it's this this this idea that together it's all about how much money we're all making together. And anybody who questions anything along the way on that is clearly not a participant and should be dumped on. So I don't know how we deal with it. That's part of the culture. And you just have to just keep rolling with the punches, I suppose. But it is very evident.

Yeah, that's well put, Michael Casey, because you're at transparency is kind of a paramount value in crypto, but so is tribalism and almost like a religious sense to it, too. the amount of people in crypto have met who, you know, are kind of basically religious nuts, you know, if crypto didn't exist, they'd be in a cult somewhere else, I think. So it's interesting to figure out how to balance it. Yeah, tribalism is a very good way to describe it, right? But tribes with investable tokens, right? Tribes with money attached to it.

They're incentivized to go into warfare, which is, you know, interesting. All right. So Michael Casey kind of led the discussion there a little bit already. So why don't we just now, you know, after we, hopefully it didn't come across as complaining about the fact that, yes, we do regularly get attacked. We do love you all of you readers and viewers and everyone else. We really do, trust us. We do nothing without you. Please ignore what we just said.

Even the people who attack the media. We love you too. So why don't we just talk a little bit about what we think the crypto media could do better in the coming year? And then we will look at what we think are the big stories for 2022. too. What could crypto media do better? And mainstream media covering crypto. I mean, I think it's a pacing issue. I think that's probably the one thing that everybody would agree on is to take more opportunities to go slowly. The pace is relentless.

We're all getting the same emails about the same $350 million venture capital around that's coming out in three days. And we're all hoping that we get our take on that. And the result is a relentless cycle of similar stories with slightly different takes and occasionally well thought out in-depth peace. And the sad truth is that in order to pay the bills, those short stories about $250 million capital raises that get $50,000,000, views in an hour help pay the bills.

But the value that we bring in the long run takes time, discipline, and focus. And we have to have the support of our various news outlets to do that. So going into next year, I would hope that, you know, so-called mainstream media outlets like Forbes and trade publications that specialize in the industry. you all get that license from the powers that be to take that time. Let's let's let the press releases fall to the ground occasionally and take a breath, practice some of Laura's meditation and go for those big stories. Sounds like wise advice.

I was going to take a look at the mainstream media. One of the things I just get very frustrated with in terms of mainstream assessments, this stuff is the is a lack of what I would describe as systems thinking. And it gets a little bit to what we're talking before about like, you know, oh God, this particular hack is a sign of the death knell of such and such, right? And a failure to step back. The assumption often in mainstream coverage of anything happening in crypto is that it is in stasis. That at any given moment, this is the state it's going to be in. It is always going to have transaction fees and gas fees at this level.

It's always going to have scalability challenges. It's always going to have only money launderers working on it or whatever. And yet you look back and anything, any story of crypto is about incessant constant change and development, right? It is nothing but a progressive story. So this kind of like hand wavy, it's the end, it's the end. and it's all a failure and look how bad it is, and the failure to see that this is a step in the process of change. And I find that a very frustrating perspective.

Again, it's not to necessarily come across as a cheerleader, although I am a believer in crypto. But it is to say analysis of all of this. It's the same way I feel about the analysis of Bitcoin mining and the environment, right? There's a lack of understanding of how the incentives around Bitcoin mining renewable energy and the sort of the system around how this stuff works could result in a far more positive outcome than, you know, the massive carbon footprint that's that's out there. And it's just, there's a lack of sophistication, I think.

I also, just to be even maybe a little more pessimistic there, I'm not sure if it's a lack of understanding. I think sometimes it's willful ignorance because the headline gets more readers. That's true. Like Bitcoin is dead, gets a lot of readers. And the reason why people keep claiming its death might be because of lack of understanding. It might be because of a lack of systems thinking.

But I think there's a lot of, there's a lot of mainstream media writers that don't really care and are just trying to get a story that their editor says, good job for getting a lot of clicks. And it's easy to just write a story that's in two dimensions and get those. reactions because the people that see it in three dimensions get annoyed and they click on it and the people that see in two dimensions think it's real and they click on it so there's not really an incentive for the people that are sort of telling willfully telling two-dimensional stories to be more nuanced hopefully it just stops working someday.

What I just a cancer take here if I can Michael is that I think I know exactly what you're talking about but I think it's getting a lot harder to do that you know why just because Millions of people are coming into crypto, and a lot of them are in high school. A lot of them are graduating in college taking crypto courses. So once upon time, it was easy to explain Bitcoin and crypto as some sort of criminal conspiracy or some sort of like nutcase thing because that's what people want to read. They didn't know, they didn't understand. And now I think just too many people are curious about it.

Once you know a bit about it, it's those stories that are just going to look more and more stupid. So I think, you know, the balance is tilting our way in terms of having a much broader base of people who get what's going on. Yeah. And one mainstream, yeah, I actually wanted to credit one mainstream publication that got a story along the lines of what Michael was, Michael Casey was talking about, correct, which was in New York MAG.

I don't know if you guys saw. Wasn't Jen Fiattschner, your former colleague, Jeff? I forget who wrote this, but they basically wrote about how Bitcoin mining could be combined with renewable energy plants in, you know, kind of, you know, places that are not near big cities and why that could actually be a good thing and was kind of a promising idea. And they wrote about it with a lot of nuance. Was it, Jen, or I can't remember who it was? I remember the piece. I can't remember. I'm sure. She's done some good stuff too. But you know, you're right. There's just more and more nuance coming in because people want an easy thing to

write off the whole industry. You know, first off, it was a scam. Now it's that it's wrecking the earth, you know, but I think it's just getting harder and harder to make those cases or those simplistic stupid headlines. You know, I mean, we're still going to see them, but, you know, I'm hopeful. There's going to be fewer of them. Yeah. Okay. You guys,

so we're running out of time. I'm looking at this old Bitcoin obituaries, you know, 99 Bitcoin. Yeah. And like they actually, there was a nice, steady decline until 2020 when there were only 14 recorded instances of the claim of Bitcoin's death. But sadly, this year, the number more than doubled. And we've had 41 claims of the death of Bitcoin. So we seem to be trending.

towards that technique not working, but we had a little bit of a blip this year. Yes, that's strange given what we were saying about Coinbase and El Salvador and the Bitcoin futures, ETF, et cetera, et cetera. But anyway, okay, so for 2020. You started out by talking about the regulators. So when you mentioned the hearing last week, and I think that's another indication to maybe Jeff's point about a growing awareness. The fact that those Congress people asked the questions they did, I was, like, IOC, I was stunned how she talked about stable coins and the role they play in the plumbing of exchanges. And I was like, God, somebody has truly educated her well.

And that was just a sign of the sophistication that's now. And that was, we, just a year ago, we would constantly get these stories out about how, you know, out of touch Congress was. In the past year, a lot of AIDS on the Hill have done a lot of educating. And that in itself is going to be a major factor in how the, stories get written because regulation is a huge story and that discourse, you know, whether we like it or not, does get driven by Washington. So informed Washington politicos actually saying intelligent things, believe it or not, is going to also shift the dialogue

that we're involved. Michael, what did you think? What do you think the chances are? Go ahead. Just on that note, Michael's speaking about Washington and next year, I know we're almost that time, but that's going to be one to watch. Laura, you said at the outset that, politically it's become bipartisan. I disagree. I think there's a lot of young Democrats who like crypto, but the people who have the keys to the White

House, Elizabeth Warren and Gary Gansler, and Janet Yellen hate crypto. And I think they're forcing that view on the party. And I think, you know, that could make a big difference in politics next year if the Democrats continue to be perceived as anti-crypto from their leadership.

Yeah, I didn't say, I think it's bipartisan. I said, well, it's more in the camp right now in my opinion, that it's neither partisan nor bipartisan, but just on a very technical level, you could say that there is bipartisan support, because obviously we saw with the infrastructure bill, there were Democrats who were signed on.

And as we continue to see new crypto legislation introduced, there are Democrats that are introducing those bills as well. But yeah, so very quickly, because we do have to wrap in a few minutes. So do you guys want to run through what the other big 2022 stories are that you're going to be looking for? Sure. Like, you know, so I, it is in a way still regulation, right? What is going to happen with stable coin regulations, bank charters, that sort of stuff? I would also say that on a similar

vein, will we actually get a real Bitcoin ETF is going to be one of those things instead of the fake futures one? There's a whole host, well, I'll, I won't steal your thunders, guys. What, you know, what do you think? I'll go ahead and follow up. I agree with the Bitcoin spot ETF or a real Bitcoin ETF. I think the likelihood of that happening next year is pretty likely. I think that if you look at their last rejection letter, the wording that they used to explain it,

which they have always used to explain it, looks absolutely preposterous in a world where they've approved a futures ETF. Like you can't use the same rationale. about an immature industry as an explanation for why you're rejecting a spot ETF after you've just approved a futures ETF, which really helps create that maturity. So I believe that was done intentionally. It was done with thought. And I think that next year is going to be the year that the spot ETF happens.

But I would be remiss if I didn't throw out there, I'm going to go ahead and take a risk and say that in spite of all the smoke and mirrors about the metaverse, I think a lot of it's going to pan out to be real. And I think that we're going to start to see something that starts to look like what a lot of people have in their imaginations before the end of next year. We won't see anything real, like the actual metaverse that we're hearing all this talk about until 2023, 2024, 2025. But I don't think we're going to have to talk in the abstract,

the end of next year. Yeah, I just want to add one for next year. This is more your wheelhouse, Laura, than mine. But I think we'll ETH 2.0 work out, just because this last year was kind of the year of Ethereum. I mean, just crypto is more Ethereum than Bitcoin these days. You know, apologies to the Bitcoin Maxis out there. And will they be able to pull it off?

You know, I'm not that close to it, but, you know, Ethereum's always struggled to make these big changes. And a lot's right enough for Ethereum, but the whole industry, including the Metaverse, whether the proof of stake transition is going to work. Okay. The only other last one I'll throw out there because we have to wrap is just, so obviously, I feel like, you know, NFTs and Defi will continue to grow. However, when I look at both of those trends, I feel like, oh, they're both moving to Dow's. You know, all the major Defi protocols are becoming Dow's. A lot of the NFT things, they're becoming Dow's. And so I'm like, oh, I think maybe the big meta trend for the next crypto thing is going to be Dow's. And that kind of like, you know, is going to create a, it's kind of, it's kind of. It's kind of. to come to a head with the regulation trying to kind of force there to be intermediary. So, you know, that's kind of an interesting thing I'm watching out for. All right, you guys,

this has been so fun. We will have to do it again sometime. Thank you all so much for coming on Unconfirmed. Happy holidays, everyone. Happy holidays. Thanks so much, Laura. Thanks for tuning in, everyone. To learn more about Michael, Michael and Jeff, be sure to check out the links in the show notes. Unconfirmed is produced by me, Laura Shin, with help from Anthony Eun, Michael Murdoch, and Daniel Ness. Thanks for listening.