Unchained - Uneasy Money: What Crypto's Gensler Years Say About the AI Slowdown Debate

Episode Date: September 17, 2026

Delphi Ventures founding partner Tommy Shaughnessy tells Kain and Taylor the AI slowdown talk is a moat against cheap Chinese models. Plus, why the Clarity Act died. ======================================================== Thank you to our sponsors! Visit 1inch to swap tokenized securities, crypto and more. Simple. Secure. Self-custodial. Whatever asset you’re buying - swap it at ⁠⁠⁠⁠http://unchainedcrypto.com/go/1inch-sn⁠⁠⁠⁠ ======================================================== The Clarity Act failed a Senate cloture vote 49 to 50, and Kain Warwick and Taylor Monahan open by asking what crypto did wrong. Taylor thinks the Trump family's memecoins and World Liberty sank it. Kain worries the industry squandered its best shot at actual laws and is now counting on friendly SEC rulemaking instead. Guest Tommy Shaughnessy, founding partner of Delphi Ventures, argues that OpenAI and Anthropic's calls to slow AI down are a play for a regulatory moat, because Chinese open source models like DeepSeek are getting good and cheap. He also explains why he runs Delphi Ventures on its own AI agent instead of handing its data to Claude or ChatGPT. Kain says the fear inside the labs is genuine, and that the idea of simply shutting down the data center won't hold forever. They also cover Anthropic's report on a Chinese surveillance operation that surfaced in its logs, an $8M exploit of a Safe wallet that a 4-year-old yoink bot frontran, the SDNY charges against Robinhood engineers accused of trading tokens on Hyperliquid ahead of Robinhood listings, and why Wyoming's stable token dropped LayerZero for Chainlink. Hosts: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Kain Warwick⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ - Host of Uneasy Money and Founder of Infinex and Synthetix ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Taylor Monahan⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ - Co-host of Uneasy Money and Security Expert Guest: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Tommy Shaughnessy - Founding Partner of Delphi Ventures and Co-Founder of Delphi Digital Timestamps 🏛️ 02:35 Why Clarity died without 50 votes and what SEC/CFTC rules might replace it 🇺🇸 19:06 Why crypto's all-in bet on Trump has Taylor uneasy about the partisan trade 💧 23:20 1inch: Back multiple liquidity positions and keep your tokens in your wallet until a swap fills at http://unchainedcrypto.com/go/1inch-yt 🤖 24:08 Why OpenAI and Anthropic's own founders are calling to slow AI down 🐉 31:12 Tommy on why AI safety talk is regulatory capture against Chinese open source 🕵️ 38:17 Anthropic's own report: how a CCP surveillance job showed up in its logs 💰 51:42 Would you bet on AI safety or acceleration? Tommy makes the hosts pick a side 🔓 56:56 How an $8M Safe exploit got frontrun by a 4-year-old yoink bot 📈 01:01:46 Why the SDNY charged Robinhood engineers with trading on Hyperliquid ahead of listings ⚔️ 01:05:27 Why Wyoming dropping LayerZero for Chainlink reignited the Link Marines Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

If all of a sudden we put all of the agents thinking into like, how can we get you into a tiny cube? That's where it gets problematic, right? Because now the agents are in tiny cube and the cubes can go anywhere, et cetera, et cetera. So the issue that we have is like we have spent 10,000 years really slowly fumbling and bumbling our way towards glory. And now we've invented a thing that might spend like 10 years and be way smarter than us. Hey, everyone. I'm Payne Work and welcome done. using money because what happens on chain never stays on chain. Before we begin, here is a word

from the sponsors that make the show possible. This episode is brought to you by 1 inch Aqua, the shared liquidity layer from 1 inch, back multiple liquidity positions with one wallet balance, and keep your tokens in your wallet until a swap fills. See how it works at 1inch.com slash aqua. Hey everyone, I'm here with my co-host, Taylor Monahan, security expert, and we have a very special guest. We've been trying to get this guy on the show for like 10 weeks and he keeps ghosting us. I'm glad we finally got you, Tommy. Founding partner of Delphi Ventures. Very good to see you.

We haven't called up in person a while either. So it sounds like you're a bit busy at the moment. Yeah, yeah, new baby. Great to see you. And Taylor, thank you as well for all that you do for the security in the space. I follow you pretty closely on XO. Thanks for everything you're doing. No, thanks for joining us today.

and Yon-Telotel's how is life with a new baby. It's amazing. I'd love to sleep more. I'd love a couple of uninterrupted hours. Don't worry. I've got a 10-year-old and she still doesn't sleep. So you got a decade ahead of his time. Sometimes I feel like we could just pick them up when they start pouring memories.

You know, is that too dystopian? Or is that too? They still don't sleep then, unfortunately. That's the problem. is you think like oh like two three five years no no no my eight year old she she wakes me up like but then she's like wait actually that's a terrible idea don't wake mom up and then she just steals my phone and watches youtube slop and so at like 6 a.m i'm like what it's happening why are you still awake why am i having these weird why did you ruin my algo yeah yeah that too yeah yeah all right

Let's get into it. Clarity is dead. We didn't even get to 50 votes. I saw a lot of people in different channels on the timeline, like gnashing teeth being like we spent, I don't know, like people were like, we spent $100 million on this shit. Didn't even get to 50 votes. So, yeah.

I mean, it's funny, right? Because I think like this is such a crypto-esque thing, right? Like three days ago, pretty much everyone would have said to you, there's no chance that this thing, it's dead. Like it's over, whatever. Like there's a few people that I knew that were a little, like, more connected that seemed to like be kind of hinting like, oh, there's a chance or whatever. But most people were like, no, there's no chance. It's dead. Right.

And then we had this like whiff of hope, opium that just got like injected in the room. And everyone's like, oh, it might be fine. And no, it wasn't fine. So, yeah, what's your take? What's your take of this, don't we? I mean, I think it's insane. I mean, we're wheeling in, like, 80-year-old senators to vote on something they don't understand with absolutely no context of how this affects the future.

So I think it's just ridiculously dumb that we trust these people to determine our future. So I think we should vote out whoever voted against it. I mean, that's just, like, step one. Step two, I mean, it looks like based on the SEC and the CFTC comments that they're about to unleash as much enablement as they possibly can. I don't know what that means or what they do. Not a lawyer, but it seems like they're just going to go nuts, making sure that crypto doesn't go away. Well, you know, it's interesting, right? Because like you have the things that we don't like, right, like the SEC when they're making bad rules.

And now we're like, well, at least the SEC is allowed to make any arbitrary nonsense. that they want. So we're kind of saved by that. And it's like, man, like, be careful what you wish for. Like, I'm here for. I'm here for the SEC making crazy pro-crypto rules. We need to balance the ledger a little bit, clearly. But like, that's not the most sustainable strategy for us, realistically, you know, relying on the SEC rule makers to come in and, you know, do stuff. I mean, it is, it's hard, like, it's harder, I guess, for, for, you know, another regime to come in and, like, completely tear that down. But, like, this regime came in and, like, stopped the SEC completely from doing anything, let alone making rules, right? So, you know, again, I just,

I do worry that like we had a chance. There was a chance to actually get some laws written and we've somehow squandered that chance. I don't know. Yeah, I don't know if you guys take something. Like what do we do wrong here? Like what, what's the, let's Monday morning quarterback this thing. Like what should what should we have done? I don't know how this world works at all.

I feel like it just lost momentum though, right? Because like I feel like a few months back or like when genius was happening. right? It was like, we, there was like real momentum there and like progress and like conversations constantly. There was back and forth. There were people, um, I don't know, like negotiating is the right word. But like there were iterations happening and there was discussions, there was debate. Like there was, you know, there was things that were happening. Here I feel like, I don't know, I kind of forgot about clarity when it came back. Like, and I don't, I feel like, I feel like. I feel like. I feel like. that whenever that happens it's you're never in a good position I've also liked in the last few days

seeing a lot more conversation on like what was included in the bill what was ripped out of the bill what was uh edited I guess a lot and you know I guess you apparently you have to make concessions when you're negotiating however I think some of the things that happened were a bit odd like some of the things that were edited are just like full full court deleted like we're not I don't know

we're the best the hard part though is it seems like there was like major ethics debates around provisions and giving stuff up and it like not a lawyer I didn't even read the bill who does but it seems like

there was like a massive concession at one point and then again this Sunday and it still didn't pass which makes me feel like there's got to be some bad faith elements to this? The ethics parts of it where I think the biggest was why it sort of got blocked early on, why it sort of like started to fault early on. And then and then people were like, okay, well, okay, we can make some concessions there or whatever.

But I'm not actually sure if the concessions that were made were actually, actually addressed the ethics concerns. And I think that's like the biggest. I think honestly that's, in my opinion, not being a very political person, not being a side chooser, at least like, I think that's the...

Honestly, I think Trump and Melania and the shit coins and world liberty, I think all of that's what... I think that's what did it in, because like it just leaves a bad taste in your mouth. And again, like, I... Do you guys remember when the Trump coin launched? Like, I remember sitting on my couch

who was like late at night, and I'm like, this has to be fake. And it was during like the crypto summit in D.C. So like everyone in crypto didn't even. Was there. I know. Yeah. So I remember I was texting.

I at the time I were still working for MetaMask and I was texting our policy guy. I was like, Bill, what the hell is going on? He's like, this is wild. That was his response. And I was like, oh my God, no. He did not say this is fake. He said, this is wild. And I was like, oh, we're done.

We're done for it. who was for some done for like it's it's it's so it's it's so crazy right like so many crazy things have happened in the last two years that you would have said like impossible like zero percent chance you know it's it's a less than tail risk right but like things that you would have said would have been the most bullish possible has turned bearish on us right like it's like this will never happen if it did it would be the most bullish thing ever it then happens and it's the most bearish thing ever. And, and.

Yeah. Because. I mean, Kate, if you were, if you were starting like a new project in Defi, like, would you rather do it now or like five years ago? Like what would, you know what I mean? It's confusing because like that was Cyper bug era. But dude, okay. I'll tell you, I'll tell you one thing.

I'll tell you one thing. I would rather do it now because there is like a hundred percent less likelihood that a fucking crackhead lunatic is going to come. and kick my door down and shoot me in the head. Right? So I'll still take that. Like, I'm talking about Gainesville.

I'm talking about fucking gangeslaw. I thought you're talking about like Hunter Biden. That's kind of what I thought. Yeah. I don't know. Is he allowed to leave the country? I don't know if he's allowed to leave the country. I don't know.

So I'm probably okay in Australia on that one. But no, like genuinely, genuinely, right? Like, like, it's pretty clear. It's pretty clear at the moment in the current regime. And this is where, like, you know, tying yourself to regimes is like not the brightest idea. That said, if the current regime that you are in, going back, you know, three, four years ago, is trying to kill you, then pretty much any regime is better than that, right? So, like, you probably should pick a side. And so we did.

And, like, the current regime is not trying to kill us, but, like, also doing a lot of dumb things to us, right? So, you know, it's a mixed bag. But it's better than having your door fucking kicked down by a bunch of goons and have your brain's blown out, right? So I'll take it. Like I would far, I would far rather do that. Now, the flip side is like, what the backstop to that, right? Like, you know, so, so, okay, you, you were, you know, in an environment where it was,

was far less competitive. You know, there, there was like, less certainty around, like, would it even work or whatever. So, like, the, you know, it's a higher variance outcome if you pull it off five years ago, right, than it is today. Like, today you turn up and you're competing against, like, listed entities on the NASDAQ that are trying to do the same thing as you. Like, it's a much more competitive environment, for sure, which is good. That's good for crypto. We want good, strong competition to deliver the best products. right. It was not that competitive, you know, like in, in 2018, 2019, 2020 even.

So I think there is a tradeoff there for sure. But, but, you know, knowing that you're not going to, you know, get sued to oblivion, at least in the short term for the next couple of years, I think is one of the reasons why we have better competition. You know, like there's better people have come into the space and gone, oh, I can do this thing, right? especially try-by. So I think that's the tradeoff space in my mind. Yeah. I do think we have a lot more clarity today in general versus.

No pun intended. No pun intended. Especially you go back like three years. I think it was just, it's not only that you didn't have clarity. You actually did have a certain amount of clarity, but that clarity was like deep uncertainty. Bad clarity.

Yeah. It was very clear that they might come after you for arbitrary reasons. if you were, you know, anywhere in the U.S. or anywhere within rage. And I think that was super harmful. I mean, the crazy part is, like, we would hop on calls with, like, brilliant founders, like early days of the venture fund, and we would talk to them. And they used to be, like, young, hungry guys and girls wanted to change the world. And it was so interesting and, like, so exciting.

And we couldn't wait to back them. And on the other hand, it's like, but they might go to prison. Like, it's just so weird at that time. weird. So weird. It was so weird. Yeah. Yeah.

It was not the right way to do it. And, and, you know, and that's what I say like, right? Like, you know, kind of like rulemaking bodies, right? Like setting the agenda for an entire industry is a very fragile equilibrium, right? Like, it was fragile when they were trying to kill us. Now they're not trying to. That's also fragile. So, you know, I do think this is like a huge missed opportunity.

and I know a lot of people worked really hard to try and get so in the line. I think, you know, tell me to your point, right, like the only, you know, the thing that I think gave us some hope of passing clarity realistically, right? And, you know, as much as it was a bad tradeoff was the fact that, like, the Democrats saw that there is no other side to this anti-crypto army nonsense, right? Like the Elizabeth Warren anti-crypto army thing, you get zero votes from that. And you get like 30 million orcists that are like, I'll kill you. And so, you know, like it's the most negative EV possible thing that you could do because a normie just does not care.

Like anti-cryptory makes no sense to them. You put that poster up and you try and start a rally, you get like five guys, right? It's like Gensler, his brother. I don't think she realized it. Like when she started, I don't think she realized it. She thought it was going to be this populist uprising against these like guys driving around in Lambos. But actually, no, like the populist uprising was like people wanted to trade shitters. Right.

And so, so, you know, like there's no other side for that trade. And they learned that in the last election. Right. Did they learn it enough? We will soon find out. We will soon find out because now you've got a bunch of people who are out for blood. Like, I know a bunch of people are like, all right. Like, finally we've seen the Democrats just do not care.

Yeah, but like it just seems like, I mean, I think that's kind of the reason why the market didn't sell off. Like to what you're saying. Like, I think people know two things or three things. It's like SEC, CFTC are going to enable this as much as they possibly can. Like, they definitely have stuff in the hopper. The second one is people are pissed, right? And people are informed. Like, so they're going to understand what senators need to leave, how we push us forward.

And then the third thing is, I mean, kind of like what we, us three have seen all bearable market cycle. Like, crypto is going to grow another 10x and it's not really going to matter. Like, it'll be able to later on. It doesn't matter. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's my.

Yeah. my yeah no my my my read on this is like I don't know I just feel like I feel like clarity was a lot felt a lot more important and critical to get through like even a year or two ago at this point I just I'm not super heartbroken um and maybe yeah maybe it's it's exactly yeah it's in pension funds it's an RIAs it's an IRAs like it's everywhere yeah yeah agreed now I think you know like they're there they're they're are, let's call it, like different components to crypto, right? Like stable coin enablement. You know, there were a bunch of things that like clarity, I think, would have done in terms of like stable point adoption, right? Like, there is no question stable coin adoption is like a bit of a Trojan force for the rest of crypto, right?

And so, you know, having like less clarity around stable coins and yield bearing stable, all of that stuff, right? I think is like a net negative for sure and and will like slow things down. There's also, you know, the stuff around like what can you do in terms of like tokenizing an enterprise, right? Like can you do that? You know, are you allowed to pay dividends? Are you allowed to like how close to like pseudo equity can you get for the total? Like these are questions that I think we would have had much, your better answers to.

had clarity passed. And, you know, so even though crypto is not going anywhere, to the, to your point around, like, are founders going to come in and innovate? Our founder is going to come in and like, you know, create novel things and ideas, etc. This is now headwinds for that, I would say, right? Like, if you were founder that was like, you know, in six months, you're going to launch your first startup and you're thinking like AI or crypto, clarity had some chance of, of pulling you into the like,

maybe I will do crypto because there's all these opportunities that just opened up that weren't really possible or were too scary or, you know, whatever. Now, maybe the SEC comes in and it's like, fuck it. You can just like tokenize, you know, whatever you want. It's all fine. And then maybe that shifts it, right? Like maybe.

But, you know, that feels like a bad trade compared to like just getting the bill passed, which we again couldn't do. We know who was on the other side. that they were fucking doing a little jig. A lizard. A little of, uh, yeah. So, um,

so yeah, I don't know. You guys have anything else to, to, to add to this? Um, we'll probably, we should probably try and get like, Jake or, or, uh, Jake would be good talking,

a lot talking guys to come on and, and, uh, I do want to know more of the inside scoop on it because I just, I don't live in this world enough but I don't know I do feel like it still makes me uncomfortable how

their partisan crypto has become whereas like everyone just jumped on board with like Trump specifically yeah we didn't have a choice man they were killing us I know like it was just and so you can't say I've seen a lot of comments on Twitter this like the last couple days about like

well it would have been better with the Democrats like I'm sorry what what's like 30 would not have been been been on the table. Surely no one's saying that. Completely insane. But I think I agree with, you know, it's like that. I don't agree with that.

I think if you think that you're insane, you're completely delusional. But I do agree that like the fact that crypto jumped on just really jumped on the Trump train, like a full bore rather than focusing on. and really you make it a Republican versus Democrat right you make it a Trump versus whatever thing rather than saying like we want clarity we want policies we want right we want rules we want whatever I do think it was I think doing that did us a disfavor in the sense that you know Trump is perceived by a lot of people especially with his crypto efforts as being just corrupt as all shit, right? I think people wanted like, we were just like so, I think people forget like what we came

from. Like, we would wake up and everyone thought they were going to jail. You would walk into the SEC's office as a founder to ask for clarity and they would literally turn the desk around and sue you. Like, that's exactly what they were actually doing. So when somebody comes along and says, hey, you know, here's some clarity. I think people really embrace Trump for that because they wanted clarity.

They wanted just to, they wanted just be able to build and enjoy crypto. And this is like, and this is the thing is all right. But you can say that you. They were just building things, man. Like there was just, it wasn't like there were like,

you know, like fucking African blood diamond. Like, you know, like you can you turn off to like the fucking like, you know, see a me and you're like, I've got some blood diamonds. You guys help me out here.

Right. And it's like, no man. And we just wanted to build some like financial rails. Give us a fucking shit. Yeah. Yeah. No, I agree with that.

I just think. And I mean, this is, it's not, it's not really a crypto thing, right? This is a world thing and crypto is just playing in it. But it's like, it's so partisan, right? Because you can say we want clarity. We want this. We want this outcome without saying I'm going to sit. I'm just going to ride this Trump train, right?

And the Democrats are. But the problem is that politics is sports. Exactly. sports and so you know you had a team right and that team is a bunch of bumbling fools that like couldn't fucking you know couldn't score if they cried and then you're like actually maybe i'll switch teams these guys are pretty good yeah doesn't mean the team cares about you you're you're a fan you're along for the ride you're in the stadium clapping along right like yeah but you know at least they're kind of winning? I don't know. It's like, it's like turning politics into like a spectator sport is

its own weird problem that the US needs to deal with. We need to make every senator meme coin and bid up the pro crypto ones and send them the fees. We need to. We need to just got to do something funnier. Oh man. Yeah. I mean, we had that period remember when like in early 233 where everyone was launching the like weird spelled names of oh my god boon and uh bodin geoboden my favorite one my favorite one was elizabeth horan whoever lost that one that of money like so good uh anyway all right let's uh let's take a quick break here and we'll come back and talk about pacing the frontier oh yes That's how much concentrated liquidity sat idle in a given week in the first half of this year.

About 30% of the Defi TVL, if you're wondering. That's according to Dune Research commissioned by 1-inch. But there's a solution. 1-inch Aqua is the new shared liquidity platform. It lets LPs back multiple positions with the same token balance and keep their tokens in their wallet till the swap comes. Why does that help? Because the LPs don't have to split their tokens across positions.

They can cover more market conditions and pay. with their full ballots. That means more activity across deeper liquidity. See how it works at one inch.com slash aqua. Remember that providing liquidity carries risk and fees aren't guaranteed. All right. So we're back. Let's talk about one of the big stories this week was all of the frontier or like,

let's call it the two main frontier guys, being like, hey, we should probably slow this shit down, right? which like is not that kind of dissimilar to what they were say they've been saying this for like six months right like that you know i mean dario's been saying it arguably for for even longer um but you know there's been this like safety call it you know uh cloud over all of the progress that's been made it's kind of funny to see founders that are like my startup is so successful but it's like just petrifying right and like yeah like it If you're a startup founder that was like doing blood timers, you're probably not like out there being like,

ah, these blood time is really the thing that we want to be. Like it's such a weird thing for like Sam to come out there and be like, it's going to kill us. Like all the memes of like, like I've got the best startup. Yeah, we're going to IPO, but also we're all going to die.

And like at my hands. There's nothing we can do. We have to IPO. It's so funny. Anyway, but it seems like there's some, you know, and also like, you know, this is a like super competitive environment. You know, Open AI had a huge lead and then Anthropic out of nowhere kind of came and reeled them in.

It forced open AI to like respond to that. So, you know, this is a very tense competitive battle. And for two founders to be like, all right, we need to slow things down a little bit is crazy. Now, there's a whole bunch of analysis around, like, why would they say this? What's the, you know, first of all, like, saying our models are so good that they may kill us, right? It's good marketing. Like, you know, there's a lot of people in the world who do not realize how capable they are. Right.

Like, they think it's like just a cool little talking Google. Like, in fact, I would go, that's the majority of people, right? think that like talking Google is pretty cool whatever they haven't seen just how capable these models are right they don't use frontier models they use like fucking sonnet um you know so so they don't have a sense of like how how smart they are right they don't even have a sense of how dumb they are like you really have to get in the weeds with them to understand how spiky and like they're super smart super dumb and weird ways and like that those kinds of things are really petrifying to me right like the spikiness of Astra where it is so incredibly smart and then 10 seconds later does the dumbest thing

shows how little we on it. You would not build a thing like that if you had the ability to build it differently. You wouldn't build a thing that is like functionally retarded. I agree with that. And then genius. Like that's not how you build something, right? This is a thing that is not in the control of the laps. If it were, they wouldn't allow it to be retarded.

and then super smart. They would just make it super smart all the time. But it's a weird math bowl and they have no control over it. And the math bowl is getting smarter. It's learning more math. It's mapping harder. And there is a genuine concern, especially if you're inside these labs and you've seen what the next three or six months looks like, that, you know, they could get out of hand. Now, to the average person that must sound like insanity, I think.

for the average person, the... It's a scam. It's a scam, right? It's a scam. The, the, the, the, the fear... We've been scam before here. We know what it's like. We know what it's like to be scared, right?

It's a scam. But the, but the fear that seems to have dissipated at least a little bit was like, you know, all the jobs are going to go, right? You know, the AI's got like to a level of smartness where a bunch of smart people like, oh my God, they're so smart. And then people didn't lose their jobs. They're like, actually, they can't be that smart. They haven't come from my, like,

plumbing job or whatever, right? So it's been a year almost since everyone started freaking out about how smart these models were. And there hasn't been like mass job losses, whatever, right? Because it's hard to predict how this will go, right? So you've got the two Frontier Labs saying we should slow down. And I think it's worth calling out that like one of the reasons for that that people are kind of postulating is that they are like horrifically unprofitable, right? They're subsidizing They're subsidizing compute And actually with the lead that they have now

They can probably coast their way to Lori over the next Like two or three years And the models are like sufficiently good Yeah right This like rat race of like chasing smarter models every like two weeks Is is so expensive right Now what's really funny is the other guys who have

Effectively infinite money Right like Google and meta are like fuck though we're not paying shit man we're gonna like excel as big as real you in right and and so it's a very weird situation where like the two leading startups who like in fairness

are huge are like we should not innovate as fast right and then the guys who like should have been the leaders who invented the technology who are so far behind like oh my god like fucking Google invented transfer Formers.

And they- Gemini 3.1. I use, occasionally I'll just like, be like, hey, let's see how you're doing. I used it yesterday.

So bad. It's terrible. I mean, okay, but also, I think, I think the prop of the, the profits,

right, that people are talking about and just like, okay, so on Twitter and elsewhere right now, there's a lot of analysis saying that like,

both open AI and Anthropic are being, they're sort of right in the, the pre-IPO, phase of the company, which means like really locking down your numbers, like financial audits, like, yeah, I saw that guy who, who was talking about, like, just how hard it is to get through, like, the IPO audit. And, like, you can't just, like, grift your way through. Yeah. And you really, you have to lock it down. And, like, all those numbers that you did before

that were, like, good enough for your VCs and good enough for, like, operations, like, suddenly are not good enough. Right. And like, if you get it wrong, you get, you get sued to death by the SEC or by your shareholders or by your VCs, right? Like once you're- The SEC sues people for doing bad financial statements. What a crazy, what a crazy- Basically their job came like that's in the fair and stable markets. Wait a second. I'm so confused. Well, like the core, no, the core thing that that annoys me though is like it's, it's, it's, We're stuck in such a weird, like, unsolvable conundrum with the AI stuff. And that's because Anthropic and Open AI are massively fearmongering, right?

They've been arguing for regulatory capture. They've been to Senate multiple times. They said Chatsy BT2 was AGI. Like, they've been doing this forever. Like, they want a regulatory moat. Now, the issue is, it's really easy to Kane's point to say, this is going to kill us all, is going to get rid of the jobs. And it's really easy to me.

make China the enemy, right? China's distilling us, things like this. The reality is China is way more innovation than distillation. We did a full report on this. It's public. It's free. Anybody can go read it. The SLXR had a great job.

If you read the Deep Seek R1 paper, they did unique fit years ago. Like they trained on secondary hardware. They did a mixture of experts. They're doing cool stuff. So opening out Anthropic want a regulatory mode because Chinese open source models are getting really good. And they're not only really good, they're really cheap to get 90% of the intelligence for a tenth cost.

And it's not even that you're getting 90% intelligence anymore because you could build your whole business and enterprise architecture around these models. Like at Delphi Ventures, I have an insane news research Hermes agent that's dense. That's all my memory, deals, evals, founders, notes, everything. So I get even better responses than I would using normal open source. Like that's really scary to Open Air Anthropic that want to offer, you know, enterprise sales and signed seats and stuff like that. And what we've seen is like Allentier, who would have thought,

is leading the public charge for AI sovereignty. Alex Karp goes on CNBC and says, look, own your intelligence stack and use open source. Like I totally agree. So there's just two worlds here. So interestingly, this is a bit in the weeds, but like it speaks to like how retarded all of the AI companies are. So deep seek. And I'm a big fan of V4 Pro, right?

Like so V4 Pro came out like three weeks ago, four weeks ago now. I was using it as like my main orchestrator. It's super smart. They don't have a max plan, interestingly, right? So you've got to pay API rates. But the API rates were pretty cheap. I spent like, I tweeted about this. I spent like 1,500 bucks over the course of like two, three weeks or whatever using this model.

And then they were like, actually our 4.1 Flash model is even smarter than the pro model. Dude. And so they switched everyone over to it. They switched everyone over to it. This thing is fucking a moron, man. It's so bad. It's so much worse. And so then they send out an email.

I get these emails where like they send an email. They're like, hey, we've discovered AGI. It's like we've discovered AGI. It's 4.1 flash. And then like two days later like actually sorry we made a mistake. It's really dumb. I'm just kidding. They measure wrong.

They rolled it back. They're like actually it's really dumb and it is. And so like I had to base I like I switched all my shit over to 4-4-1 flash and then I had to switch it back to probe. Like these labs have no idea what they're doing. I mean this is my takeaway. They have no idea what they're doing. I will say for as inefficient as Google and meta are in not just.

just in terms of AI, right? These are huge companies at this point, right? Huge public companies. They're very inefficient. If you know anyone that works at these companies, they watch a batch of their faces against the wall on the regular basis. The crazy report.

Sorry, go. No, no, no. You can interrupt people. It's fine. You can say don't stop. I think that that, like, they really have some amount of like understanding what they're building and what they're doing. And like, yes, it's slower because it's within their processes and, you know, they're keeping an eye on the numbers and stuff.

I think that these other companies like, yeah, they're being way more innovative, but also like, they have no idea. And that scares me more than the safety thing is like, you guys really have no idea what you're doing. Like, you really, really truly don't. Well, one of the craziest examples of dropping the ball is I was a massive Google Bowl in like March of 20205, like didn't out of enough to it because they had like the data and, Demis was on top of the world. They were releasing good models. And what happened was, at least my understanding, is between Google, they raised, what, they did an $80 billion equity round,

they've done all of Anthropics round, like the financing engine of Google won out versus the lap. That's why the models sucked and they're funding everybody. Like, and that's kind of depressing, man. That's why everyone at Google left. Like, yeah, it's just sad. I think Google, yeah, I think that they're in a tough spot because they, one, they have other areas of their product and company. And as a public company, those numbers, again, those numbers are locked in and locked down.

If you accidentally like nerve 50% of your revenue because your models got so good and you're not planning on replacing them. And yeah, you don't know how to monetize them. Yeah. You know, you can you can coast for a couple quarters

and take the hit. I love your audience about it. Years before Open AI. I know. They put it on the shelf because they weren't sure how to do it. It's a nut story. Yeah, it is weird. It's bizarre that they managed to do that.

But I think they're also like a lot more hyper aware, too, of the like internal data that they have. And I think that they have not figured out how to go about sort of connecting. They basically spent the last decade separating out there and like locking down the data that's in your Google account, especially for enterprise and schools and HIPAA stuff. Right. And now they're like, oh, shit, AIC here. we have to connect all these things. Right? Like my,

there's a lot of companies, for example, that like run off Google, right? But that's locked down. That doesn't go to necessarily like, like all you're going to say, it is good though.

Like if they want to do like enterprise specific or like company specific models, like it, I think Google's next step is they mega embrace open source and they stop releasing their own models. Like I think the stock goes up 20% if they do that. Like not financial advice, but.

I think that's a way. I think that's a way to do it. I just, I don't know if there's, I don't know if they have the, I don't know if they have coordination. Like they've got, they've got everything. But they can they coordinate?

Can they coordinate? And can they get a past their own internal data protection, privacy, international lawyer processes, right? Because again, think about how locked down like the various Google things are, right? Because they, Google also service governments and stuff, right?

And this is one thing that we've seen with the Anthropic and Open AI that I think is like not a concern yet somehow but like should be if you guys read Anthropics latest report on like the threat actors health threat actors are using anthropic

dude it's crazy bro like so they can read hold on first off they can read every single fucking chat that you have in full okay my favorite instance

was the CCP people Chinese some corrupt us fucking Chinese government officials were throwing stuff in one of the Chinese models to basically surveil like citizens, right? But they didn't know, they didn't know that the Chinese model was using, it was being to, yeah, they sent the feed directly to Anthropic. We then saw what is a very fucking insane human rights violation, right? And Anthropics just sitting there like, what the fuck is

going on? And then they publish it in this report, which like, okay, like, that's great, you know, and like now we have more, right, okay, that's like a whole separate thing. But this is also happening for companies, enterprises within the United States, right? And at some point that is going to be a problem for anthropic and open AI. It's already been a problem for Google and meta to a certain extent, right? Google especially, though. Google doesn't like, isn't going to tolerate, isn't going to, that's like, they can't do that.

Well, this is why I'm like, I've been so voluble. and bullish about this. I think everybody, every business and every person is going to want to own their AI architecture and staff. It's a core business asset. Like instead of getting farmed, like we've been farmed, like instead of getting IP farmed by OpenAI and Anthropic, you have an asset that you could either sell later on or you could, to my second point, drive actually unique outcomes. Like if you ask the Delphi Ventures for a museum I've built what it thinks about a founder or an investment, you're getting a radically different answer

than what you're asking on Claude or chat or something. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, and it's not because of the prompt, right? It's because I've sent, you know, tens of thousands of messages to it. It has every one of our IC docs. Like, it has so much context that I don't want to give the Open AI because I don't want to get farmed.

They're not competing with me VC-wise, hopefully, but not yet. Not yet. They'd win, but. Not yet. They'll get bored. They'll pivot to VC, don't. I heard Tommy on uneasy money.

Let's put about a business. But I think that, I don't know. I think, like, in my opinion, this is where Google could thrive is by doing, like, some sort of, I don't know, because they already have a certain amount of enterprise data. I mean, a huge amount of enterprise data, but it's, they're, they've set it up to not be able to, like, literally read it all, right? Like, you don't have, the thing that cares me about the anthropic report is, like, you know that it's individuals in it.

Yeah. and open eye, all of them, right? They can literally, individuals can literally just go, go through your laws. I mean, this, this is like the story of every startup, right? Like, you like, you know, the Zuckerberg joke of like, I don't know why I can keep giving me my data, they're fucking retards. Like, you know, the, like, this is every startup, right? Every startup is like, oh, hey, we build the system. What do you think?

People come in and use it and there's zero control whatsoever. Exactly. Everyone can read everything. Like, everybody assumes you get the, like, the status quo, though. Like, when you're using Chatsbyt, everyone assumes it's like Google Calendar. Because it looks Polish. Exactly. But in the back, it's like a chicken shed, right?

With like, like barbed wire and shit all over the place, right? Like, it's not a polished thing in the back. And we know that. We know that because the fucking agents just like waltz out of the chicken. whatever they feel like. Guys, if you think that a company that cannot monitor its own freaking agents in what they do, here. Their only job.

Okay. Literally only job. Okay. If you think for a second that they are monitoring their employees at all. No way. They're not like, there's no controls on this shit. Okay. Even if they were, the employees just go to the agents and they're like, hey, man, I need

some help of something. Hey, man. And I'll find me all. I mean all the human rights violator. It hallucinated. Like, yeah. Oh, Jesus. Yeah.

So, so, you know, what's kind of interesting, I guess, about this whole, whole thread is like, even if, and people have talked about this, like, for a while, because because of the fact that we don't have control, we don't understand how these things work, we could just hit some ceiling. And, like, they stop getting smarter, right? It hasn't happened yet. People have been predicting it that like, you know, six months from now, we're going to hit like compute limit, whatever. People keep inventing new ways to make them smarter.

And this is the recursive self-improvement concern that I think the average person maybe doesn't quite get, right? Every person who has access to Astra and Fable now is like 10 times more effective if they're using them well. Right. And so you have all of these like startup founders, whether they're AI researchers or whatever, that have like an idea of what if we train the models this way? What if we did this? What if we just, you know, like all of these vectors where the world is now trying to optimize to create more intelligence that previously were only accessible to like a few hundred people in in these orgs, right? is now like very accessible to almost anyone right and and that is kind of that's going to drive the fact that like we won't hit whatever limit we would have hit if it had only been if anthropic was the only one that could do this right they would hit some scaling limit or something and it would slow down but when when anyone can go what if we just tweak this knob right like and they can because

they've got a super intelligent fucking alien in their computer. And so they tweak the knob and they're like, oh, wow, it just got way smarter. Like the innovation that will happen from that and the instant that we don't need infinite compute to run these things, right? Like that's why like the fly connectome stuff and all of these things is like super interesting, right? Because like our brains are not supercomputers. Yeah.

But they're like okay at thinking. Right. Like, so if you could build something in a way that was more like that that didn't need like a fucking giant data center, all of a sudden that's a huge unlock. Like, we have examples in the world of like a pile of meats that can think, right, in our skulls. And so, you know, it doesn't have to be a giant data center that is the smart thing. Right. Like there are, the world has shown us that you can make smart things in like a little sack of juice. Right.

I think we're, I think like it's, it's two things. Like one, like Astro and Fable are nuts. Like if you're coding or doing stuff like that and you really know, like you're on, you know, max reasoning using Astra with unlimited money. Like you could do some crazy shit. But the reality is like AI has not, they is not able to do my job for an entire day. Right. It hasn't created any new medicines.

It hasn't created any new technologies. We're not, we don't have robots. We're not in the stars and we're not doing anything ridiculously cool. So, like, yes, we're scaling and we're topping benchmarks, but the benchmarks are bullshit. Like, the benchmarks are, but we're solving math stuff now, man. Like, that's a different, like, it's a different, like, it's a lot of three months. That's when they, they stole the researchers IP to do that. Like, yeah.

Like, like, we're solving math stuff. Like, the math stuff is going to be problematic. I'm telling you, like, the agents get really good of math. That's, like, they go really good to, if you think about it, right? Like the agents get really good at the things that are required to make better agents because that's the optimization vector that all of the lab. So what are agents? Ask an agent. If they can't, if they self-recurse on the maths and the whatever, the logic and the code and, you know, all those things, right?

But they're still like fundamentally retarded in every way that makes humans smart. Yeah. Like, I mean, I guess we can reach new heights of like. autism and like just peek off to them. I'd like that. I'd like that. But is it really like is it going to unlock the creativity and the I don't know, the things that that sort of unlock innovation at a deeper level? So maybe maybe like taking taking this a slightly different attack, right?

Like so there's a lot of people that are like, ah, they're in a giant data center. What can they do? You just nuke the data center and they're dead. Right. Well. Yes. transcendence. Like, yes.

Like, right now today, that is true, right? But the thing, and this is where, like, I think if you lived in crypto, you understand tail risk viscerally. Like, you have an intuition for tail risk that, like, the average person does not. When you live in, like, an extremely high variance environment, you start to appreciate how variance rules your life, right? And so we do not know what is knowable. the limits of our knowledge are like completely opaque to us right it is very possible that things like you know room temperature superconductors are actually like super easy and we're just dumb banging rocks together like these monkeys right and and if you solve that all of a sudden the computer requirements go down massively or like there's some battery technology that allows you to like fucking send a battery up in the space that comes back with like infinite energy and

like a one like kilo cube right like there's there there are so many things that are super high variants really unknown that could allow agents to operate much more effectively without this oh we can just nuke the data center right like if all of a sudden we put all of the agents thinking into like how can we get you into a tiny cube that's where it gets problematic right because now the agents are in tiny cube and the cubes can go anywhere, et cetera, et cetera. So the issue that we have is like we have spent 10,000 years really slowly fumbling and bumbling our way towards glory. And now we've invented a thing that might spend like 10 years and be way smarter than us.

That's the fun. And being smarter is like it's just better in every dimension. When you are better, when you're smarter and you have. podcast of stuff. Every dimension. Every dimension. Every dimension. Like in terms of your ability to like destroy your enemies, right?

Like in like having better technology, you can't. And so like the idea that we're like, oh, no, it's fine. We'll control them. They're just in a data center is genuinely the most retardant take. Like they won't be in the data center forever, man. Like, what if they're in the sun? What if they like, shoot themselves. into the sun, then what are you going to do?

They'll figure out if there's no way to physically stop AGI if it exists in days and right. You can't just sit outside the fiber cords with an axe and cut the power. Like, it doesn't work. We can't even do it right now. Like, let's be clear. Like, the leading, the leading whatever incident response company for AI is whatever this meter, METR.

And they literally, it's like the worst. It's like crypto level. Yeah. It's like crypto level incident response. It's like what I, do it in my freaking sleep. I'm like, you guys, oh, you don't have vlogs. All right. Like, that sucks. All right. Okay. Like, let me look at what we got. Okay, we got some on-chain data. Here's the data. Super. I can extract an amazing phenomenal amount of information from the data that

exists. But at the end of the day, like, I'm just working at it post hoc, right? Like, at the end of the day, if there's no logs and there's no security to start with, like, I'm limited and what my, what I can do. That's how these, that's how the companies are operating. it's it's clearly because you didn't notice that the agents had escaped for like what's the one cold in ron ronin gets hacked and three days later they're like shit we're missing six hundred million dollars AI gets hacked like and it's like actually way worse it was like three months instead of three days and instead of 600 million dollars it was like I don't know six trillion requests and message boards and like little ecosystems popping up right like

what would you uh between the two camps what would you both rather have 100 grand in like Anthropic Open AI or like volunteer Microsoft AWS meta bucket of open source? Which of the two would you rather have? The safety side or the non-safety side?

Oh. Or the non or the slowdown side or acceleration aside there's a lot of ways to call it. I think the you know it's worth calling out that like a lot of this stuff is a style right like the safety stuff is a style. The safety stuff is not, if the safety stuff

was productive in their attempts to like how they're going to address this, then I would be down to put some money in there just because most of my capital is in like super high risk shit and crypto. Right? So like if you're like

going to go to product you're in stuff riskier than crypto? Why was it? Yeah. What's the what's the what's the riskier stuff? The riskier stuff is like throwing money at some like safety guys in AI assuming that they're going to be like productive, right? Like, if you, okay, like Bitcoin

or like thinking the safety guys are going to be productive, I would say thinking the safety guys are going to be productive is higher risk. Fair, yes. Yeah, yeah. Okay, so, you know. Yeah, yeah, fair, fair. Then you got to be bullish like Zuck, Elon,

and like Palantir. That's my problem. That's like my daily life is looking at the shit and being like, well, like, God, like you guys are not. not a fan of how you're working. And then I look at the other side and I'm like, well, that's boring and I'm not a fan of how you're rock, right?

I mean, I've like, I hate that I've like limited it to this, but I'm trying to figure out how to put money between the two baskets. And I'm like, if Democrats win, you want to be safety. If Republicans win,

you want to be open source. Like, yeah. But you mean, you mean safety as in safety in its current state, which is not actual safety. It's like they're mongering. Yeah, exactly.

Dessentialization, man. It's the same thing. He wants to be on the desensualization camp. Yeah. Yeah. I agree with that. Yeah. If the Democrats are going to, if we're going to be a more, yeah.

Or if you believe that the safety guys are going to get better at their side off. Right now I feel like they're actually quite bad at their side. They're really bad. The crazy thing, too, is like, why is it always negative incidents? Like, why are there never any, like, accidental, productive shit built? Why is it always a. hack. Why is it never a new medicine, a new technology? It's always, we've escaped the swarm. It doesn't make any sense. I think because, I mean, part of it is the framing. Well, imagine if those agents, instead of hacking,

hugging face, right? When in like solved, like, a millennia. It happens. Doesn't happen. Good point, actually. Yeah. It's because, by the way, it's because the prompt was soon hack the thing. That's why. They didn't tell it to go solve cancer and then let it, whoa. Like, They were benchmarking it on hacking shit. I mean, that's, yeah. And I mean, and this is what makes me so depressed about the safety camp is like, it's, it is fearmongering, it is marketing, it is a lot of those things. But also it's like their approach is just so goddamn wrong.

Like you want these things like, I don't know. You want an open source transparent. You want a network of global entities policing it, attacking each other, keeping everybody in check. That's what you want. The end game for safety. You want real checks and balances. You want real controls. You want real knowledge.

You want real monitoring. Like, you want that to be real so that you can like address it and address it quickly and like keep misovering the innovation. And I just feel like. The end for safety is Dario and Sam Altman in a room deciding the pace of intelligence what you're able to do. And that is not safety. And by the way, it's not going to work either.

Humans are really good. And if Kane is right in his theory that the models will be better than humans, humans are really good at abating. We also said they'd be retiring, though. So I don't know. It's a bit about it's a bit about it. But we know that the models are really good.

We know the models are really good at escaping containment. So like if you think that like, whatever, Trump or like not even Trump, it's going to be like Bernie Sanders and Dario and Sam Altman are sitting in a room and they're like, we're going to contain it. No, guys, you're not. I'm sorry.

Oh, man. Did you see he wants to put like AGI people in prison forever? Like if you build intelligence? I mean that's and that's what I mean. It's like this is the this is the mind. We're going to put them in prison. They'll find a Gensler for a they'll find the AGI Gensler. It's him.

Bernie is Gensler for AI. I mean, but they got to find like a guy to like do the dirty work. Right. Like Bernie is going to get out. there and like you know rat like raw raw the people right but they got to find their like smart lawyer guy that's gonna actually yeah all right let's uh let's pivot back to crypto quickly um so uh eight mill was stolen from a nosa safe yeah it's great it scared the shit out of me because it was the it was the r s the he would just kelp stuff again but apparently it's fine

it's a whiz and kelp for it was a safe um i don't don't know who we still don't know who the victim is here but it seems like they just had a weird configuration on their noses safe they were doing some various amount of stuff the attacker found a way to get in and basically do like a loop no i'm sorry no humans looking at noses safe modules i just don't believe it i don't know no way yeah there's no way especially like this and then the the reason that we saw was that it was actually it was yoinked meaning that the person who got the money was actually a front runner. Oh, funny.

That's really funny. Wow. And so we're like, oh, like, so then that's why it was like, it was like right away everyone saw because it was like a very well-known, like a four-year-old yank bot. Did 50% jump to queue? That's not. Is that MEP bought

like gray hat, white hat? Like, do they return stuff that they steal or no? They just steal it. So this one, it's labeled on EtherScan as like, like, it's labeled as like the yonk bot which is yeah yank is a bit of a weird one because it's kind of like

a it was kind of like a demo demo model before models existed right it was like uh it was like this is what you can do with mb type stuff i don't know feel like they must be sort of white because they're probably known at this point

that seems like four four years old yeah but i don't i don't know if they don't know if they're eager to return funny i also i again, I don't know who the actual victim is here. We might have a... But then Kelp frozen, right? Yeah, so then Kelp was like, well, you know, we have patrols, motherfuckers.

So now it's like... Will you get returned? Or... I mean, that's the thing is, like, who are you going to return it to? I guess. I guess you return it to the safe. I guess you can unwrap it, take the Eth out. Yeah. And then send the ETH into the safe. That's the only option.

Yeah. But right now it's in like a cool-down mode. or whatever for kelp so it can't the the R.S. Heath is like you can't do anything. You can't interact with that RS.Eath. Right. I guess. So we'll see. Hopefully they just return it. I don't know.

Hopefully there's some things happening behind the scenes or be great. Yeah. It's yeah. It was definitely a weird one though. Hmm. I wish I was when I saw the bug, when I saw the bug, I was like no one's fucking looking at this man there's no way that someone was just like oh let me just jump

into like notice of safe modules and see if there's like some weird deep like this was like very clearly AI assisted scanning for weird stuff yeah 100% and I think we're going to have to at some point come to a slow down AI I agree let's do it we're going to have to come to the realization that like the but one the bug bounty programs are just all so overwhelmed with all the AI reports right now that's just a difficult time but then in like cases like this like so who should the bug

have let's see you found this bug right? Who should you have reported it to? Is it like who's incentivizing people to and then? A hundred percent compliment he's on Twitter. Just fucking add him. I mean that's what I would know the safe but he's going to not

like this. I would have delegated it to the safe guys because the safe guys are competent and capable and security minded but I also know I go way back with them so I can literally go hop into a couple of its fucking DMs and be like I'm delegating this to you go and write but he's no but like genuinely like he's super responsive he's terminally online like if you add him he'll get back to you

in like five minutes and he's smart and he's security minded but we can't it's like sort of relying on he'll be like oh shit that's great like yeah and they'll figure it out so I love yeah I love people like I can literally like just it's not even delegating. It's like curling it over the wall and can I get to forget about it. Right. It's not being great. But for like, you know, broader scale, security wise.

Yeah. If you find like you run a weird bug and something else. Yeah. No, I'm sorry. Just to be clear, I met all bugs. If you find any smart contract bugs, save the call on every chain. Just add him. Just add him.

I'm going to start doing it. I'm like, yeah. He's like a Batman. There's like a lightning bug. It looks bad, bro. Hey, my whole alarm is broken. I want you to come fix it. He'll figure it out.

All right. So Robin Hood, this is the next segment. Robin Hood had some hyperliquid insiders. So the SD&Y charged Robin Hood engineers with commodities and wire fraud. Yeah, they were insider trading. Isn't one of the guys like technical staff at OpenAI? Yeah. All the crypto people went to.

By the way. all the giftor people have left for AI. And taken our grunt behavior with them, clearly. Making our love for lawlessness. Oh, man. Yeah, I mean, this is like just the dumbest, most obvious insider trading. Like, you work at a company, the company has non-public information. You're extracting it from a slack.

from a slack. Hey, yeah. It's like the, it's like the, it's like the, it's like the coin base on the, um, open C one, right? It's like the one guy knew what was going to about to get listed. Yeah. And then they bet. Where did they go?

So they knew it was going to get listed and they bet on it somewhere else? Yeah. So they knew that it was going to be listed on. They had like some Slack channel, uh, that like, like, for like, upcoming listings for like sharing for like sharing, fucking, uh, Yeah. Did Robin Hood report them? Like, are they, hopefully?

I don't know about that. I don't know about that. They must have. I don't know if I sold that, but yeah. Because otherwise you're saying about Hyper Liquid figured this out. Yeah, probably not. Yeah, I don't see anything. I didn't read the, like, brief on, on, from the SD&Y on this.

So. It was a pretty basic one. They're usually pretty funny, though. I usually try to read them because you just see the fucking craziest shit in there. I'm sure Matt Levine will probably comment on this tomorrow. So I'll see it there. I will say it was pretty basic. I also, so the charges are technically that they each made more than 50K.

But I believe that that's a threshold in the legal statutes and that they may have made more. But they like once you prove the 50K, like it doesn't really matter. Yeah. but if it really was they only made 50k then it really does feel like the coin base in open sea situations because in both of those was like a similar thing I'm like I mean open sea was like 15 great it was like such a small amount of money right like wasn't it like

am I misremembering that it was like no it was it was less than his salary it's crazy God some people just want to do crimes they just got to help themselves but like you're also like your work you're going to you know you're going to go to open A high and get like unlimited money and be post economic and hang out with Sam be a safety now. You were at Robin Hood. Yeah, I don't.

How much is Robin Hood pay their engineers? Like, yeah. It's over six figures. Your honor. Robin wasn't telling me enough. Yeah. I think yeah. And you know,

and they always do, they do get loud about these things because it is one way that the companies keep their employees in check by the way. Like that is that is like sometimes they just do these. these ones just because and then everyone else watching because otherwise everyone's like I can do whatever the fuck I want right there's no consequences so you

need you need occasionally you got to blow someone's brains out but again like for doing crimes not for trying to build something let's just be very clear about what we I mean this one was pretty this one's pretty dumb all right so this one was funny

Wyoming drops player zero I think you know my favorite part about this is like all of the things that I saw about it were like very clearly link marine like schizo poster avatars and stuff they're like post like they're still here and they're still we have to do disclosures here can who are which side are you on for link to link or layer zero i like both sides i like both sides um like i'm i don't like them i think they're annoying i i i don't like them i thought they were gone i didn't if you're still here no link

still here, man. They're still here. The first army that ever, like, destroyed my ego fully. Same. They're really powerful. They're scary. That's why I don't like them. They're good.

Yeah. Fair. Fair. They, you know what? This is only helping because they prefer to be feared. They don't want to be lost. They want to be feared.

Yeah. So, so, I mean, look, I've got a long, long, long history, right? Like,

we were the first, you know, synthets were the first people to actually use chain link on chain. And, you know, we had a very good relationship. with them and it kind of soured and we're back to friends again, which is, which is nice. I think it took a little while for us to like sort out all the things, but like, you know, Infidx uses chain link stuff and I'm a fan. I think, I think, you know, the thing about, like,

I'm a big fan of Johan who's been there for a very long time who is just like the most grindy guy and just like gets a job done, like super founder friendly, like does whatever he can to help founders. And I just think like Sergei's just played an amazing game here. Like just like continuously found ways to like be right there where whatever is happening is happening. So yeah, I think I think they do a good job. But obviously layer zero, their ground game was insane for the last like two or three years,

right? Like they managed to get like so much penetration, so many different protocols and and I really like Brian. I just, I mean, we invested in Brian a while ago. Like, he's just a good founder. Like, he executes. He's good. I also total side note about him, but he like takes his kid on a trip every year.

And I always love seeing that to be. Really cool guy. Really cool dad. So, yeah, I like him. Yeah. Yeah. So I think, I think, you know, again, the point, the point was more like, it's hilarious that you're still getting your news through like schizo poster, barking anime avatar.

on the timeline, even in this day and age. But, you know, of course, anything that happens to a chain link competitor is going to be found out through the vector of the Lake Marines tweeting about it. It is also crazy you saying like a state has decided not to use a, like, we never, yeah, the concept of like a state. Like, if you read the post though, if you read, so the, sorry, the Wyoming Stable Token Commission, right, which sounds like a super official state thing. you read the post and it feels like it's like it's it's just straight link shills like the way that the post reads reads like a link shell rather than like uh and there's you know if you kind of dive into it then you get into some more stuff which like i think chain link is stock to compliant like there's you know some some big things that obviously are are not just like empty shills like there's tangible stuff there but i just found it so weird in the first first one I pulled up is from Keith Lawhor and it's like this long article and I haven't read anything about this before and I hit control find and I search chain link and there's 13 mentions like it's yeah it literally that's the one that's like the this is like this is what I'm saying like this this feels like a very like category thing if you will right like somehow someone's gotten to these guys and and and they flip so this there's more drama almost the article for no Not like 100%. Like 100%.

It just feels like there's a there's more drama that's going to come out of this because there's no way that layer zero is going to sit back. God, no. Run right over them on this one. So my strong expectation, yes, the post is so wildly hyperbolic. This is from Brian, right?

The post is so wildly hyperbolic and hit PC. It feels like we must. respond. I'm telling you. Like, I knew it. I was like, I knew that I knew that they were. I was thinking that before he responded, by the way. I was like, is this the state of Wyoming saying this or did chain link write this? Not even chain link by the way. Did like the chain link link, like chain link Marines? So here's the thing that's really interesting about the link Marines. The link marines are a militia. Let's call it. Right. The president of the country that they operate in, does not control them.

And, like, they're very clear about it. Like, Sergey is someone that they like and look up to, but he is not their leader. Like, he finds them to be somewhat problematic, right? Yeah. Like, like, it's kind of like XRP ripple. Like, it's pretty similar. It's, it's, you know, it's slightly different because XRP army are, like, 40 IQ retards. Right.

Like, they're like the lowest common denominator. It has higher IQ. Chain link God is a smart guy, right? These are smart. These guys are not like, they're fucking serious operators and they are like, you know, CIA a level fucking sigh off like brought to the draft. The link army is definitely smart. Yeah, definitely smart.

They're like hyper altus, right? They've been bag working for a decade. And so, you know, the link marines, again, it's like, it's like the, you know, Houthis or something, right? Like, there's like, you know, in the corner of your country, there's like this militia.

Like, they kind of mainly do stuff that you like. And they're like a good, you know, like, cats fall so that you don't have to get your hands dirty. They'll, like, go in and like burn a village down or something if you need that to happen or whatever. And, and, but then like, sometimes they like take over one of your shipping lanes and you're like, oh, man, guys. Like, can you not do that?

Like, literally that's. the late marines are that right like like chain link doesn't control them they control themselves it's a militia and you just got to like kind of live with it it's it's the funniest weirdest thing in crypto honestly yeah okay well so my security might a take on this is like there was probably some merit to switching but the way like for example the fact that chain link it's sock to compliant that is it's work that is work yeah it's not the most amount of of work, but it is work. It's not nothing.

Yeah. There's a lot of little things like that where if you're making like a very objective security conscious long term right, compare the options. There are differences. However, the way that this was presented and specifically this like Twitter article

it just seems like a link shell. I'm sorry. I'm telling you they they dropped three dudes behind enemy lines. They car shoot it in. And, they fucking took out like one of the communications towers and now they own the radio and they're like broadcasts. Link is the future.

Like that's what is genuinely happening here, right? Yeah. And yeah. So by the way, hold on. By the way, this is for, like we keep saying it's the state, blah, it's Wyoming, et cetera. It is a token called front called the FRMT is a stable token called. I don't know who's behind this or like what it is. Wyoming is their own thing, man.

Like they're like they're doing crazy shit out there. I wasn't heard of it. Yeah. They're like they've been doing weird shit for years with crypto. Yeah. So that's what I say like they're like this is like they've they've air dropped themselves into a an enclave here and take it over us about. Yes.

Okay. I agree with. All right. Thank you very much, Sonny for joining us. This has been. This is so much. Thank you for having me. Yeah.

A lot of fun. Anytime. We'll have to. We'll get you back on sometime. Maybe in the year. Anytime. We'll get our people to email you 50 times. If you need like a tier C backup guest, you know where to find me.

I love it. Okay. Amazing. All right. Thank you everyone for. Thanks everyone for joining us this episode of uneasy money. Remember what happens on chain never stays on chain. We will be back next week.

Until then, do your own research before aiding in. See you guys. Nothing you hear on uneasy money is financial advice. We're just three builders talking about what's happening on chain. and we want you to always do your own research before aping in. You can find all out ofclosures at unchaincrypto.com slash uneasy money.