Unchained - What Fidelity Is Doing With the Bitcoin It's Mined - Ep.200

Episode Date: November 24, 2020

Christine Sandler, head of sales and marketing at Fidelity Digital Assets, talks about how 30 years in traditional finance and an early retirement led her to Coinbase, and, eventually, Fidelity Digital Assets. She discusses the history of Fidelity's involvement in crypto, how they became one of the first to enter the space, and what the future holds. Topics include: what Fidelity Digital Assets is and Christine's role there Christine's background in traditional finance, how she was drawn into the world of cryptocurrencies, eventually working at Coinbase, and how she found her way to Fidelity Digital Assets the role Fidelity sees itself playing in the digital asset space how the client base for digital assets has changed over time how Fidelity approaches the difficulties around explaining what bitcoin and crypto is, and the most common questions they receive how the pandemic has changed the conversation around digital currencies the types of services and products Fidelity is considering for the future the differences Fidelity sees in how international investors are approaching digital currency Fidelity's plans for a Bitcoin index fund and whether they are considering offering futures how financial institutions and institutional investors fit into a world of decentralized finance founded with the ethos of excluding them the regulatory improvements Fidelity is hoping to see what a Bitcoin ETF would mean for Fidelity how Fidelity might use a central bank digital currency in its business Fidelity's thoughts on offering proof of stake services whether a more deflationary Ethereum might attract more institutional investors and whether Fidelity will offer Ethereum in the future   Thank you to our sponsor!  Crypto.com: https://www.crypto.com   Episode links:  Christine Sandler: https://twitter.com/shoegalnyc Fidelity Digital Assets: https://www.fidelitydigitalassets.com/overview Twitter: https://twitter.com/DigitalAssets   Christine leaves Coinbase for FDAS: https://www.coindesk.com/fidelity-poaches-coinbase-institutional-sales-head-christine-sandler   Fidelity Center for Applied Technology: https://fcatalyst.com/overview   Fidelity Digital Assets looking to become prime broker: https://www.theblockcrypto.com/daily/68920/fidelity-digital-assets-eyes-service-for-introducing-crypto-funds-to-big-investors   How the client profile has changed: https://www.theblockcrypto.com/daily/42342/the-client-profile-is-changing-fidelity-digital-assets-exec-says-new-players-are-entering-the-crypto-fold   How to Explain Cryptocurrencies and Blockchains to the Average Person Unchained episode: https://unchainedpodcast.com/how-to-explain-cryptocurrencies-and-blockchains-to-the-average-person/   Fidelity expands crypto business to Europe: https://www.coindesk.com/fidelity-to-expand-institutional-crypto-business-to-europe   Fidelity obtains New York Trust Charter: https://www.coindesk.com/fidelity-gets-a-new-york-trust-charter-to-custody-bitcoin-for-institutions   Bitcoin Index Fund: https://www.forbes.com/sites/michaeldelcastillo/2020/08/26/fidelity-president-files-for-new-bitcoin-fund/?sh=13aa335445c9   Fidelity survey of 800 institutional investors: https://www.fidelitydigitalassets.com/bin-public/060_www_fidelity_com/documents/FDAS/institutional-investor-study.pdf   FDAS hiring: https://www.fidelitydigitalassets.com/articles/engineering-hiring-initiative?ccmedia=owned&ccchannel=social&cccampaign=hiring_blog&cctactics=twitter   Kingdom Trust:  https://www.coindesk.com/fidelity-digital-assets-to-custody-bitcoin-in-kingdom-trust-retirement-accounts   Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Hi, everyone. Welcome to Unchained, your no-hype resource for all things Crypto. I'm your host, Laura Shin, a journalist with over two decades of experience. I started covering crypto five years ago, and as a senior editor at Forbes, was the first mainstream media reporter to cover cryptocurrency full-time. Subscribe to Unchained on YouTube, where you can watch the videos of me and my guests. Go to YouTube.com slash C-unshamed podcast and subscribe today. crypto.com, the crypto super app that lets you buy, earn, and spend crypto. All in one place. Earn it to 8.5% per year on your BTC and more than 20 other coins.

Download the crypto.com app now to find out how much you could be earning. Welcome everyone to the 200th episode of Unchained. When I started this baby, I never realized what a big part of my life it would become. So thank you to all the listeners and to now. the viewers who have helped Unchained get to where it is today. Today's guest is Christine Sandler, head of sales and marketing at Fidelity Digital Assets. Welcome, Christine. Hi, Laura. Great to be here. Congratulations on your 200th show. Thank you. What does Fidelity Digital Assets do and what do you do within it? Fidelity Digital Assets, we're an institutional custody and execution services provider.

And I'm responsible for our sales, marketing, and research teams. So many of our client-facing activities and also our perspective in the marketplace. And so why don't we dive into your story of how you got into crypto because you have extensive experience in traditional financial services. So how did you make that transition? Happy to talk a little bit about my background. So I joined Fidelity Digital Assets in March of 2019. Prior to that, I was with Coinbase for about a year. And prior to that, I spent about 30 years in traditional finance. And the 30 years were composed with, I traded on both the buy side and on a proprietary basis early in my career. And then as trading beginning, to change, I did a little bit of a shift where I went to work for Bloomberg, and Bloomberg

intelligently put me in their electronic trading division in 1998. So I was a former trader selling trading technology to hedge funds and other institutional participants. And I was somewhat successful and chose to join a startup based in Chicago called Archipelago. And Archipelago was quite successful in helping to shape the narrative around electronic trading. Archipelago was subsequently acquired by the New York Stock Exchange. The business that I ran was spun off and sold to Merrill. Entered Merrill Lynch in 2006 as an MD, ported that business over. That became the basis of Merrill's electronic offering.

And then about a year later, joined my team at the New York Stock Exchange, where I became global head of sales reporting to the CEO and part of the management committee. It was a great time to be, you know, at the exchange, lots of change, rebuild of the technology platform, changes in market structure, and also the backdrop of the financial crisis. So it was, you know, it was just an incredible vantage point to see, to see multiple narratives kind of begin to play out. New York Stock Exchange was acquired by a rival exchange in 2013. I left to join Barclays and was there for about a year and a half. And then I subsequently retired.

And I think that for me, the change was we went from creativity, a great deal of creativity in terms of shaping markets, and then a period of intense competition, and then full-on commoditization in about 10 to 15 years. So the full-on commoditization was not nearly as fun as the bulls. both the competition and the creativity. So I retired. And I was a little young to be retired. Most of my friends weren't retired.

But I started to think about, you know, when I was the happiest and most successful, I felt like I was surrounded by some very smart people who were solving complex problems. And that's what led me to crypto. I couldn't help but notice that there were some very intelligent people finding their way to crypto. And I took a look at the markets and found them to be clearly dysfunctional and homogenous. And I thought maybe there's something I could bring from my previous experience to these markets. And so it was the market dysfunction that truly attracted me at first. And the underlying technology and all of the use cases in this incredible community that kept me here.

So very, very pleased to be part of this community. And I love the change that we're seeing kind of year-over. over a year, month over month, in terms of the development of the marketplace and the ecosystem. And how did you end up coming out of retirement to work at Coinbase? That's a funny. It's actually a funny story. There was a recruiter that had given me, you know, some guidance. And I was working with him on a couple of searches, either for me or for others. and one day out of the blue he calls me up and says, Christina, I have something a little off the beaten path.

And I said, David, is it Coinbase? And he said, yes, it is. And so quite honestly, I was delighted to speak with Coinbase. I couldn't have picked a better place to get kind of a really deep education in crypto. Obviously, market leading brand. It was a wonderful team and a great experience. So engaged with Coinbase. during the period of the run-up in 2017

where things were going absolutely kind of bananas and join them in March of 2018. And tell me then about the transition to fidelity. So the transition to fidelity, look, I think what I loved about Coinbase was the possibilities. I mean, they clearly looked at digital assets as there were great possibilities. for lots of different client constituents,

and clearly they were an enwrap for lots of different, lots of individuals. And so that was their kind of core client base. And then they began to kind of grow into different businesses. But I came from an institutional background, and I felt that a real necessary focus had to be placed on institutions and to have an institutional player with an institutional focus. And I felt that that was sorely missing.

So when I chose to leave Coinbase, I wanted to leverage the experience that I had in the past. And the clear choice or the clear player was fidelity. So engaging with fidelity kind of brought together both of my passions for institutional engagement. and this wonderful new ecosystem of digital assets. So it was a good fit for me. It was less about leaving Coinbase and more about joining Fidelity. And what role does Fidelity see itself playing

in the digital asset space? It's a great question, Laura. I think when we look at the space, I'm not sure if everybody realizes this, but our digital journey goes back a number of years, we began to kind of, we began to study distributed ledger technology back in 2013, 2014. We began to mine cryptocurrencies just in order to get more familiar with the asset. So we ended up with owning the asset.

And we realized that there were a number of frictions that institutions faced in terms of the safe, storage of those assets, trading those assets. and there was a lack of overall infrastructure. And I think that that contributed to our decision to begin to build institutional services and products, given the fact that Fidelity does engage with a broad range of participants, both retail investors, high net worth individuals, family offices, registered investment advisors, pensions, and endowment. So we do have a broad perspective on the traditional ecosystem.

system. And I think that we viewed our opportunity to be unique in terms of providing services to institutions. Prior to launching, but prior to launching a commercial business, we implemented a couple of proof of concepts that helped to cement the thoughts around building institutional products and services. So it was, it was not something we took lightly. And I think we also felt that there were really robust on ramps for retail clients, but No one was looking, no one was methodically serving the needs of the institutional investor and looking at the frictions that they faced and trying to kind of ease those frictions. So you've just kind of listed out the general client base that you have, but I've wondered,

I've wondered how has that changed over time? Definitely. So there has been a big, there has been a pretty big shift. And I would say this year in particular, so 2020 has been a pretty big. significant change. I think it's been a significant change in so many respects. But we've seen a fairly strong move in terms of the institutional adoption. And when I say the institutional adoption, clearly there were institutions that were trading in digital assets or engaging in digital assets prior to 2020. But many of those were natively digital hedge funds, venture firms,

liquidity providers. So it was a fairly central, it was a fairly small and not too diverse group. There were similar businesses. What we did see in 2020 was an adoption of, a broader adoption of that digital gold narrative. And that digital gold narrative began to resonate with other pockets of institutional investors, namely hedge funds, ultra high net worth individuals. and subsequently family offices, registered investment advisors

that serve both family offices and ultra-hineate-worth individuals. So we saw a broadening of the base in terms of the types of clients that we were seeing engaging in the ecosystem. And so that, look, enter fidelity. We kind of speak that language. We approach risk in a similar way to how some of the more traditional institutions approach it. And we were also a friendly face.

We've probably interacted with most of these firms in other asset classes and in other ways. So we became a trusted brand for institutions. And I think that that's contributing to our success here. So I totally understand all that. And yet I do wonder if the fact that Fidelity kind of was first amongst its group to really embrace this industry, if that ever led potential clients to seem skeptical about the fact that Fidelity was

kind of putting itself out there. And in general, you know, whether or not you thought being first kind of helped or hurt, you know, fidelity in its, you know, attempt to kind of build out this business. That's a unique perspective. I think when we, I do think when we, I'll draw that that parallel back to, you know, And we also survey clients fairly often. So on a fairly regular basis, we've issued two institutional-focused digital asset surveys. One was last, one was 2018 and one was 2019.

The results of which we unveil the following year. We plan to rerun this survey as well. And what we look for is general sentiment around digital asset adoption, the frictions that clients face. And then we look to see, you know, are these trends in place? And in 2018, we saw that there was some interest of, there were some interest being kind of a touchstone piece for us. In 2019, we started to see some increase in the adoption and the positive sentiment around. around digital assets. And then we also started to see that there were some thoughts around when we,

when we queried like, what is missing about what is missing in terms of the ecosystem? And clearly they cited some of the traditional frictions like regulatory ambiguity. They said also that there was a lack of traditional players. And I think there was the hope that more traditional institutions would begin to adopt. would begin to adopt solutions. And I think now we are seeing a little bit more of that, but clearly fidelity was one of the first. And I think it was significant that in 2017,

Abby Johnson chose to address consensus. It's not that would be non-typical, but that was a fairly bold statement from our CEO saying, look, we see tremendous promise in terms of digital assets, and we're willing to take both our intellectuals, capital, the experience that we have in other asset classes to help build a framework to empower others to adopt digital asset strategies. And so that footprint was in place. And we continue to test the market as well to see, look, are we on the right track? Are we building the right tools and

services to serve the client that we feel most closely associated with? And I think also because of how early you guys were. And even now, still today, I think this is a pretty prevalent problem. One of the hardest or biggest challenges that people face in bringing new people in crypto is simply explaining what crypto is or what Bitcoin is, you know, or why people should care about them or how they work. And I know that this is a core part of your duties, is, you know, the messaging around this. And just to underscore how important this is, like one of my most popular episodes is titled something like how to explain cryptocurrency to the average person or I don't remember the exact title, but something like that. And a recent

guest on the show, Dan Tapiero, mentioned it to me saying that for him it was one of the most pivotal shows for him in his journey to understanding how Bitcoin works and what it means and blah, blah, blah. And it's funny that he remembers it all these years later to mention to me, you know, That was the episode where I finally understood this key issue. So what are some of the most common questions that you feel? And what are your favorite or most effective explanations? That is, first of all, that is a great statement. And I think everyone that's involved in digital assets, in spite of how the length of their

involvement has kind of one of those really strong reactions to either something that someone has written or a podcast where they're like, wow, if this really pulls in so many more narratives or really helps to clarify some of the things that I think about. And they think that's one of the things that we take pride in. So clearly we have an institutional voice. Clearly, we have an opinion on digital assets. And it's our hope that we can help shape the opinions of others that are thinking about investing in digital assets. So we did hire someone, a brilliant young woman, to lead the research for our unit. And we feel very strongly that content should be part of the narrative around digital assets. And you would be surprised at some of the questions that we receive.

So incidentally, the woman saying is Rea Bortoria, we would be lost without her. She's an absolutely exceptional talent. And I hope that she will be on your show at some point. but she's just truly, truly an exceptional talent. And the way we've leveraged Ria's content is in a number of ways. So what we try to do is either explain things about the ecosystem in relative terms so that clients understand, wow, I understand this parallel in traditional assets or equities per se. this might be the parallel in digital assets. So things like the importance of audit.

So structural components around either the technology, the ecosystem, or even regulation. But we also talk about, you know, what are some of the prevailing investment themes, whether that's Bitcoin as a store of value, Bitcoin as exposure to the venture, an aspirational venture bet. So what we'd like to do is to take some of the narratives that are in play and maybe help to reinforce others' opinions or others that have the beginning to shape their narrative. We hope that the writings and the thoughts help to reinforce their own narratives as well. So I think we want it to be as constructive as possible.

We want the dialogue to be as open and as thoughtful. We've also included some thought leaders in terms of, you know, as contributors to some of the research. So we, it's not just us thinking about, like in a room thinking alone. We partner with the rest of the ecosystem for really balanced thoughtful pieces. And we've also taken, you know, we're all on Zooms. So we've leveraged some webinars as well. So we've had a couple of webinars with some great speakers, Dan Moorhead from Pantera, Kathy Wood from Arc, and we intend to kind of continue to leverage that medium as well.

And we find that that really does drive home a narrative. And I think when we think about creating that content, we also create that content and tailor that content based on the segment that we might be interested. And so let's say it's a group of family offices, that content we can help to shape for a family office audience as well. So we're lucky enough to be exposed to a number of different types of clients and also a number of different client coverage teams that interact regularly with them. So we listen to their feedback and we listen to their concerns. and we hope to address those concerns and shape them in terms of by leveraging this content. And so you did allude to this earlier, but let's dive into it a little bit more.

How has the pandemic change or any of the other related events this year change the conversation? What new questions are people asking or what new levels of understanding have they had because of these outside events? Yes. I don't think I fully answered your question around what are some of the things. that people are asking about. But clearly the pandemic has really helped to shape the narrative around digital assets. So we clearly hear more from folks that have not been active in assets, in digital assets up to fairly recently. But clearly the Fed actions have had a profound impact on digital assets and on the digital

gold narrative. And when we go back to some of the content that we've collected as a result of the survey, we look at those frictions. So one of the frictions was regulatory ambiguity. We're beginning to see some really constructive statements from a number of regulators, whether it's the CFTC, even in their enforcement action against a noted exchange. They noted the potential, yeah, the potential for digital assets was still quite viable and great. That's pretty constructive. And clearly, like, a watershed event was the OCC making a statement saying, look, it's okay for banks to hold digital assets on behalf of their customers.

That's a critical piece. So when you look at that as a friction, you know, we're ticking that off. And then I think also the number of high profile, very successful established investors, either in the global macro space or the hedge fund space, making profound statements around the value of Bitcoin in a portfolio in terms of diversification, building on that digital gold narrative. That's really helped to reduce the kind of career risk of investing in digital assets. So I think, you know, clearly Paul Tudor Jones and most recently Stan Drucken Miller, you know, constructive, you know, brilliant investors across a number of asset classes and across a diverse market times.

That goes a long way as well. So those are the types of questions that we hear. So could Bitcoin be part of a diversified portfolio? We seek to help clients do the work to understand could they fit Bitcoin in the portfolio. And using what type of vehicle? Is it holding spot Bitcoin? Is it exposure to a fund? Is it finding actually a professional manager to leverage so someone that is experienced in digital assets

or has implemented a more dynamic strategy? So it really is about consulting with that client about the best options for them. So currently, as you mentioned before, Fidelity Digital Assets focuses on custody and execution. What are some other services and products that it feels would help kind of fill out its offering? Well, so we, great question, Laura. I think we felt that custody and execution services really were the pillars of an institutional offering. And I think we still have yet a lot to build in terms of, you know, a really robust ecosystem. What we're focus on is when we think about institutions or institutions, let's choose hedge funds.

You know, a hedge fund would like to actually leverage or use capital more efficiently. It's very challenging to kind of begin to deploy capital and have to place it on multiple. exchanges. So in building our execution services platform, we sought to create one single counterparty and access to multiple pools of liquid. But I do think we can also do a better job there. And when we think about easing those frictions, we think about capital efficiency. Could we make it a little bit easier? We look at the growth and lending, and we look at that as a potential opportunity to build out an adjacent service as well. When we think of the, we think of the about liquidity aggregation, liquidity is still highly fragmented in this marketplace.

Those are the types of frictions that we think about and we think about easing on for our clients. So when we think about product adjacencies or building out of business, we always think about, look, is this a benefit for our clients? Fidelity potentially benefit from this as well. And honestly, is it good for the broader ecosystem as well? So. And finality digital assets has also expanded to Europe and Asia, in particular Singapore. Do you find that institutional investors in these different geographies have a different attitude or approach to investing in crypto?

You know, for instance, do their concerns or questions differ from those of U.S. investors or do you find it's like different types of investors investors in those places that are interested? What are the differences you see? So there are a couple of differences. and quite honestly, actually, I'm going to go back to the survey. We opened up the survey this past survey to European investors, and we were actually pleasantly surprised to see the numbers were quite robust

with respect to interest both in, particularly throughout Europe. And that's been consistent. I would say there are similar trends, but slightly more, a little bit more regional differences. We also see that in North America, we don't have, mining is not as prevalent as it is in Asia. We have more interest in terms of mining operations and other slightly different strategies that are being employed.

Aside from that, we do see a fair amount of consistency and the same types of challenges as well in terms of aggregating fragmented liquidity and accessing markets as well. And when you say in Asia, people are more interested in mining. Obviously, the Fidelity Center for Apply Technology does do mining. Is that what you were referring to or what exactly did you mean by that? No, I think, look, I just think that Fidelity does mine cryptocurrency. but we don't we actually don't see as we see we see a little bit more traction in the US we are seeing a little bit more traction in the US but mining is really quite an established

business outside of the US that's that's really what I meant and I understand this is a different unit you know from finality digital assets but I think it's somewhat of a mystery what Fidelity is doing with the Bitcoin that it mines. And given the news this year with Microstrategia and Square, you know, it just sort of seems like perhaps what it's doing is some smart financial move that has made big news recently. I'm actually glad you asked that question because Fidelity Center for Applied Technology is really, you know, is obviously part of our. our organization. And quite honestly, Fidelity Digital Assess wouldn't be here

without the Fidelity Center for Applied Technology. And what we do there is we study lots of different technologies, so whether it's distributed ledger, and we implement the proof of concepts literally there and then test their viability for commercial process, to see if they can actually be viable commercial businesses. So the Center for Applied Technology is doing lots of very cool things. some of which I'm not even aware of.

We think of them as our R&D. In terms of making smart decisions around the use of digital assets, look, I think a smart decision was to allow our donor-advised funds to begin to accept appreciated digital assets to fund those accounts. That was game-changing. I think that's something we've come to expect from Fidelity. And I think that that spirit of innovation that lives in Fidelity Center for Applied Technology does bleed out into the rest of the company.

We do. We own the Bitcoin. So Fidelity does own the Bitcoin. And quite honestly, in terms of the appreciation, yeah, I think it's been a decent move. Yeah, I'm sure a lot of other companies are wishing that gotten in as early as you have. So in a moment, we'll be talking about a future Bitcoin index fund and other fidelity plans. But first, a quick word from the sponsors who make this show possible. Crypto.com, the crypto super app that lets you buy, earn, and spend crypto, all in one place.

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telling the stories that matter to all of us. Because local news is big news. Choose news, not noise. CBC News. Back to my conversation with Christine Sandler. In August, Fidelity Investments President Peter Jabber filed Form D documents to the SEC to establish a Bitcoin Index Fund called Wise Origin Bitcoin Index Fund 1. It has an investment minimum of $100,000. So I think we could probably guess

what type of investor or client this is for, but can you elaborate on that? And, you know, just, you know, is this somebody who, like, why would, would they prefer this over something like spot Bitcoin? Look, Laura, that's a great question. I think the, in, in, in, creating the product, and interacting with our clients as well, there are some clients that can't hold spot Bitcoin in a portfolio and need that kind of wrapper of a fund in order, whether it's the downstream impact of actually holding physical Bitcoin in a fund, whether it's tax treatment or what have you, we found that there were a number of clients that wanted exposure to the asset class,

but did not have the luxury of holding spot Bitcoin, or it was just way too cumbersome, the opportunity to create, it would probably not shock you that a large asset manager would have potential designs to create asset management products in a new asset class that we know and love. So we announced the intentions to launch this fund, Primarily, it's to accommodate those that really did have challenges in terms of holding spot Bitcoin in a portfolio.

So, yes, it's geared to institutions, you know, either accredited individuals or institutions. And, you know, we look forward to that fund launch fairly soon. Any date you can put on that? I can't. I wish I could. I wish I could. More to follow. And you don't currently offer futures, but is that? that's something Fidelity is thinking about doing? It's unlikely that we would offer futures, at least in the near term. We're typically not, we're not a huge future shop as an organization. It's not outside the realm of possibilities, but it's not on the near term roadmap.

Clearly, we have seen a trend where a lot of investors, particularly on the hedge fund side, have looked to futures as an on-ramp or as an entree to this asset class. We can't deny that. And we can't, the growth in open interest is absolutely underscoring a broader institutional narrative as well. And one thing I wanted to ask about is driving ethos behind the rise of Bitcoin and crypto more broadly is the fact that it cuts out intermediaries, you know, that it enables people to transact peer to peer, that it democratizes access to finance.

So given that premise, where do you think financial institutions and institutional investors fit in in this world? I think it can fit in, they can fit in many places. I also, it's also our belief that the infrastructure that we're building at Fidelity digital assets will help empower other intermediaries to build out businesses as well. And clearly we're seeing that trend. So while we offer products to directly to customers that are investing, that have investment, philosophies and investment strategies predicated on Bitcoin and other digital assets.

We're also taking our infrastructureing and offering it to others to help them build digital asset businesses. So whether they are payment processors or financial intermediaries that are looking to expand their offering, they leverage our technology. So clearly we're potentially empowering the next phase of competitors, but we feel that the broader ecosystem could withstand that competition. And the more robust the overall, the overall ecosystem gets, the stronger and healthier the markets will be. And what types of businesses are you seeing interested in those sorts of solutions?

So we are seeing a number of intermediaries so that we are seeing some interest from banks. We actually announced a sub-custody deal with a, another custodian, a custodial bank. Kingdom Trust. Kingdom Trust. We serve as a subcustodian for Bitcoin for them. And we expect to see more in the space. They may not look the same as Kingdom.

The beauty of this is through API connectivity, you can tailor the experience to meet the needs of the underlying investors. And also you can keep when you, in a sub-cost city offering, the custodian maintains control and maintains the client experience. So they retain the ability to shape that client experience while leveraging our strong technology. So it's potentially a win-win situation. It gives them the ability to potentially propel into a new asset class without having to build from the ground up. And so to go back to the most recent survey that you published in June,

One fact that struck me was it said that 25% of European investors found the fact that cryptocurrencies are free from, quote, free from government intervention to be appealing, whereas only 10% of investors in the U.S. feel this way. I guess I was surprised because I sort of view libertarianism as being more popular in the U.S. So what do you think accounts for this discrepancy? I would be speculating, but my perspective might be shaped by, I think, Americans, feel that the dollar is a pretty safe, stable currency. That may not be the same perception throughout Europe where there had been historic instability around individual currencies. And I think that may

help to shape some of these opinions. I think if you queried someone that was in South America, I think you might see, you know, even, you know, probably even higher numbers. Definitely you know, that is definitely something that we see that's not consistent globally. And we lightly touched on regulation or the lack of clarity around it. And I wondered, you know, that's something that a lot of people in the crypto space have been talking about and saying they feel it's sort of hindering development, at least here in the U.S. What's on Fidelity's wish list when it comes to better crypto regulation? We are really excited to see, we're very excited to see the SEC.

reaction to Wyoming's no action letter stating that one of their banks was a qualified custodian. What we think is really important is that the period of consultation that the SEC has kicked off could potentially yield not only greater clarity, but a really collaborative effort in terms of shaping the thought of what it means to be a qualified custodian for digital assets. And we absolutely welcome that dialogue. So that on our wish list is absolutely more regulatory clarity. And quite honestly, we're almost indifferent as to what structure it is, whether it's a bank or a broker dealer or an ATS. Quite honestly, we would, we'd run to that regulated entity and create a business that was most regulated. We're open to contributing to the discussion

around regulatory clarity and what potential best practices should be. And there was news recently that SEC Chairman Jay Clayton will be stepping down at the end of the year. And I'm sure many people wish him well, but I also know that a lot of crypto people who work closely with regulators were pretty excited because they feel that he's been a little bit of an impediment to the development of the space. and a lot of people are also saying that this is quite positive for a potential Bitcoin ETF sometime soon. How do you feel that a Bitcoin ETF or at least the idea that there could be one soon will affect your work at Fidelity? Look, I think the opportunity to have a Bitcoin ETF would be fantastic.

I think while we're still talking about a nascent industry in ETA, ecosystem. I do think that a Bitcoin ETF would be met with, you know, great, great praise. Just look at the, look at the recent inflows to grayscale. Grayscale is probably the only immediately accessible product. If you woke up one morning and said, I need to have exposure to Bitcoin, you can immediately access it through the grayscale Bitcoin Trust. We do think that there will be more competitors coming that to balance. balance that out, but clearly an ETF would be, would represent kind of really broad-based access to the product. If there's one concern, are we ready for it? Like, are we ready for that kind of

volume? Let's hope. Let's hope the ecosystem that we've built is resilient and strong enough. It'd be a horrible face plant if we didn't. And Fidelity Digital Asset has said for a while that it might offer Ethereum in the future. I think an article even earlier this year said it might even happen this year. Do you have any update on when that might happen or what factors would, you know, enable that to happen? It's clearly on the roadmap, Laura. I would be remiss if I would be remiss if I could state a date, but definitely on the roadmap. And speaking of Ethereum, Ethereum 2.0 is coming online and already staking.

has become an established way to produce yields on other crypto networks. Are institutional investors interested in that? Do you see fidelity shifting to begin offering that service? I think to be a digital asset custodian and offering proof-of-stake assets, you definitely have to be, you definitely have to offer staking services. It definitely puts you at a disadvantage. So I would expect us to to build out those services once we can support Ethereum. To be quite candid, most of what we hear is Bitcoin. On occasion, we do hear from investors that are seeking access to Ethereum, but most of what we still hear is Bitcoin.

So it's still the predominant institutional narratives around Bitcoin. And why do you think there's such a difference in interest? I think that this digital gold narrative, which is the prevailing investment theme, has really resonated with the more traditional side. And that's the client that Fidelity Digital Assets is engaging with most frequently. I do think the broader ecosystem has thoughts around whether it's DFI or Ethereum. they may have broader use cases. The clients that we're interacting with are primarily interested in Bitcoin. And I don't know how far you've dug into the Ethereum 2.0 system of staking and slashing. But there are some people who are saying that given the way that it's set up,

that eventually Ethereum could be even more deflationary than Bitcoin, do you think something like that would peak the interest of institutional investors? I would imagine. So, Laura, I think to be honest with you, the Bitcoin is definitely the entree vehicle for many of these institutions. We still have kind of basic conversations around, can you please explain what this all means? So you would be surprised at the lack of penetration among the traditional ecosystem. system, you'd be surprised. We talk about it every day, but this is not, it's not the vernacular

for many of the traditional investment community. Yeah. I mean, that makes sense to me in the sense that like most of my friends have no idea about this world. So, you know, I just extrapolate that to probably, you know, the rest of the U.S. But just to understand kind of like the process of, you know, adding something new, a new asset or whatever. You know, you kind of mentioned defy, and I'm sure it's too far in its infancy to be under serious consideration for a fidelity product. But what are the kinds of like metrics you would look for or just what factors, you know, would tip something over into, okay, now we probably would start offering this?

Well, clearly we are a client-facing, you know, we're a client-centric organization. So we're going to look to our clients for the demand side of it. And when we think about adding new assets, we think about both the technical piece of it, the safety and stability of that asset, and then the underlying network that supports it. And so those are the primary factors. And I think those are the ones that we would most broadly consider and then begin to do the work around. is this something that we can support with our existing technology? How much of a build would it would require robust support?

We're not, we're typically not a speculative company. So I would, we would probably go pretty slow. Given the fact that we're Bitcoin only, we'll go pretty slow. And can I just, can I just ask? Because you did talk about how the creative period in your career has been more fun. what is your opinion of what's going on at Defi? I think it's fantastic. I absolutely think it's fantastic. It's been an incredible thing to see these proof of concepts play out in real time. And truthfully, the work needs to happen on the governance side and on the resilience. We need greater

transparency, but it has been remarkable to see these proof of concepts play out. It's just absolutely breathtaking. Yeah. I would agree. as just covering it, it's sometimes just too fast to keep up. So on the horizon, it looks like we might be seeing more central bank digital currencies. How might Fidelity use CBDCs in its business? You know, I don't think we've issued any kind of forward-looking statements around CBDCs, but I do think we believe that CBDCs will be, I think I was on a panel a few months ago, and someone asked, the moderator asked, do you think we'll say, we'll see.

see CBDCs anytime soon. And I think I was the most bullish saying, I think we will see them in at least the near term. A couple of, you know, couple of years. We'll see, you know, viable central bank digital currencies. And the reason I think that we will see them is I think the ecosystem is growing so quickly, particularly when you think about use cases for the real, the tokenization of real, real world assets and leveraging things like smart contracts. I don't think. think it's outside of the realm of possibilities that you would use a digital dollar or a central bank digital currency to interact with that ecosystem. I think they'll exist side by side with traditional fiat currencies. I don't think that that's outside the realm of possibilities,

at least in the near term, one to two years away. How that that could be used clearly to plug into an ecosystem in a similar way to how stable coins have kind of facilitated other activities and within the digital ecosystem as well. Your CTO just published a blog post announcing a call for hires that included a call for more than 20 engineers. What kinds of products and offerings does Fidelity have in the works? So we've got a lot of, so we've got a lot of great plans for the 20 engineers that we hope to join our company.

Part of it is continuing to build out this robust resilient ecosystem. Part of it is executing on the existing plan that we have for development. When we think about the products and services, we will go through the same analysis that any company would go through. Is it better to build by or partner with someone? And quite honestly, we may partner with other strong institutional players in the ecosystem. to get a product to market either quicker or if we feel it's a more robust offering than we could build ourselves. So look for us to think about filling those institutional gaps with products and services. So whether it's activity in the lending space, whether it's the reconstitution or reduction of

fragmentation in terms of liquidity, those are the types of things that we'll be working on. So we think about our client needs, obviously our own resources, and then, you know, really helping the broader ecosystem as well. So a lending product would be something on Bitcoin, where the depositor could withdraw dollars? That's something that we're thinking about. And as for what you were describing before, is that capital allocation for the different, like hedge funds or other institutional investors that use your execution service?

So when we think about that, we think we think about is the ecosystem friendly enough for a hedge fund to implement the types of strategies that they've implemented in other and other asset classes. And so that's that's truly how we think about the development of the ecosystem. So what do you see as the big gaps right now between the way that an operator could work in the traditional financial system versus in crypto? Things like there's a lack of cross-margining. So let's say you are hedge fund along the futures, lack of cross-margining across spot and futures.

That's potentially challenging for them. I think what we've asked participants in the ecosystem to do is to stitch together the pieces. What they want us to do is to begin to stitch together the pieces for them. So that is more broadly what we're thinking about and what we're working on. All right. Well, to satisfy the Twitter trolls, I'm going to ask you when Fidelity retail? Of course. Inevitable.

We think about it all the time. And we do get, look, and we do obviously get a lot of inbound interest from retail clients. And as we said before, though, for us to be a really great institutional purpose. provider, we have to remain focused on this institutional client and not to take away from that focus. It's not outside the realm of possibilities, but it's not on the near-term roadmap to offer access to retail. Retail has some wonderful, wonderful robust options, whether it's, you know, players like PayPal and Square that are known to them and other, you know, where they use them all the time or a more digitally native offering like Coinbase, some really robust options for retail.

We feel our efforts are really more focused and better focused on the institutional community. I think we can actually help scale and breadth and resilience. So from your answer, I mean, obviously I understand why you're focusing where you are now. It seems like you know, you're kind of leveraging your particular strength. but it does sort of feel, you know, at some point in the future that a Fidelity Retail Offering would happen. So what would need to happen before you would make that move? Like, are there particular metrics that you're looking for in the marketplace or, you know, what are the factors that would come under consideration in that decision? To be candid with you,

I think there are so many factors that would contribute to that, to making that decision, the ability to provide a really robust offering and not, you know, that's the absolutely critical piece. We're definitely a client-first organization. If we couldn't provide something that's better, we probably wouldn't do it. I see. Okay. All right. Well, this has been a super fun discussion. Where can people learn more about you and Fidelity Digital Assets? Yeah. Please follow us. You can follow us on Twitter at Fidelity Digital Assets. And you can also visit our website and see all of Ria's great research and look for us in the media as well.

Perfect. Thank you so much for coming on Unchained. Thanks, Laura. Thank you for having me. Thanks so much for joining us today. To learn more about Christine and Fidelity Digital Assets, check out the show notes for this episode. Don't forget, you can now watch video recordings of the shows on the Unchained YouTube

channel. Go to YouTube.com slash C slash Unchained podcast and subscribe today. Unchained is produced by me, Laura Shin, with help from Anthony Yun, Daniel Nuss, Bossie Baker, Shoshank, and the team at CLK transcription. Thanks for listening.