Unchained - Why Crypto Twitter’s Disrespect Toward Regulators Is a ‘Really Bad Business Decision’ - Ep.342

Starting point is 00:00:00 Hi everyone. Welcome to Unchained. You're a no-hype resource for all things Crypto. I'm your host, Laura Shin, author of The Cryptopians. I started covering crypto six years ago, and as a senior editor at Forbes was the first mainstream media reporter to cover cryptocurrency full-time. This is the April 19th, 2022 episode of Unchained. Welcome to a new world of crypto-friendly banking with Cross River Bank. your Fiat-On-OffRamp solution now at crossriver.com slash crypto. Galaxis. Create unstoppable communities by issuing NFTs with interactive dynamic utility traits that allow any creator to engage with, reward, and monetize their following. Buy, earn, and spend crypto on the crypto.com app. New users can enjoy zero credit card fees on crypto purchases in the first 30 days.

Starting point is 00:00:59 Download the crypto.com app and get $25 with the code Laura. Link in the description. This episode of Unchained is brought to you by Beefy Finance, the multi-chain yield optimizer. Beefy is the easiest way to earn more from your crypto. Deposit funds into Beefy's secure vaults to auto-compound yield across 12 blockchains. Got crypto? Choose Beefy. Today's topic is Crypto lobbying. How well is the crypto industry communicating with Washington and how could it improve?

Starting point is 00:01:34 Here to discuss are Nikki Christoph, founder of Christoph & Co. And Chris Lehane, Chief Strategy Officer at Hahn Ventures. Welcome, Nikki and Chris. Thanks for having me. Really excited to be here. Thanks for holding this conversation with us. So this is a midterm election year, and the highest levels of government have been signaling that they are not only paying attention to crypto, but have deemed it of high priority.

Starting point is 00:01:58 Plus, there's a bunch of new candidates that are running on crypto platforms and a slew of crypto advocacy groups in Washington. But before we dive into the meat of today's discussion, let's have each of you describe your backgrounds so people can understand where you're coming from and what your expertise is on the subject. Nikki, do you want to start? Sure, I'll start. Thanks again for having me. So I'm relatively new to crypto. I started working with a defy company about a year and a half ago and realized I didn't understand. anything about defy and had to get up to speed. But my background is I was an attorney.

Starting point is 00:02:34 I worked in Republican politics, and I've spent the last 15 years working in tech at Google for eight years, at Uber, at Salesforce for three years, and then hung out a shingle doing strategic consulting, which sounds like a fake job, but helping tech clients communicate around advocacy issues based here in Washington about a year and a half ago. Awesome.

Starting point is 00:02:55 Thank you for having me. I know you've been in this space and leading for a while, so thank you for both being a voice, but in particular, a substantive voice, you know, really leading some great conversations. And Nikki, it's nice to actually formally meet over a podcast, nevertheless, but I think in some ways we've had sort of maybe from the left and the right, at least we were left and right, sort of mirror images career-wise. So really briefly, and I'm happy to get into the story to the extent you have any interest, but I got into crypto really through my two now teenage boys, both one through gaming and the other, who had actually done some research on how you could use crypto to put a price on carbon. And ended up having really interesting conversations with them about three, three and a half years ago, which sent me down the proverbial rabbit hole, and I emerged on the other side, a true believer.

Starting point is 00:03:50 But my quick background, I originally come out of Democratic politics. Like Nikki, I like to think I'm a lawyer who fell up, you know, maybe fell down, but I do think I fell up. I spent around almost eight years in the Clinton administration, first term, working in the White House counsel's office. And then second term was vice person in Gore's. Press Secretary actually went through the 1996 Telecom Act, which I actually think has some echoes, you know, history's echoes right now. now. Eventually moved out to California in 2001, started my own consultancy, representing, did a lot of big ballot initiatives out here in California, campaigns around the country and around the world. Ultimately, did a lot in what is now called Web 2 when policies were

Starting point is 00:04:40 really beginning to emerge on the Washington, D.C. and for those big tech platforms to navigate those, little sports entertainment work. And then ultimately in 2015 made the big leap and went in-house as part of the executive team at Airbnb, where I helped oversee the efforts to, quote, legitimize the business across 100,000 different markets around the world when we started. There wasn't a single legal framework really in the world. And by the time I left a couple weeks ago, there were over 80% of our top markets have legal frameworks in them. So I think some lessons from that for this space.

Starting point is 00:05:17 I'm also mainstreaming, you know, something that was thought of as sort of a niche space. based back in 2015, you know, is today a noun and a verb. And so I oversaw the communications and the policy work and worked with an incredible team. They're incredible founders. I'm recording this podcast from an Airbnb in Miami. I was going to, I was almost going to ask if you're actually in a great Airbnb in Miami. And I hope it's treating you well. That's great to see. It gets the job done. That's good. That's excellent. And at the end of 2021, Han, who had launched with Chris Dixon, one of the early VC verticals in crypto, and who herself had come out of a government background, a prosecutor, reached out to me and said she was thinking

Starting point is 00:06:03 of launching her own fund. We sort of thought of it as she described it as almost VC3.0, a different sort of model or the next generation of a model for a venture. Capital fund thinking of it more as a venture contributor fund, or values contributor fund, sorry. And she shared her vision with me. told her it was one of the best calls I'd gotten all year. And anyone who knows Katie knows that when you get a call, you're going to end by saying yes. And so formally joined the fund about a month ago, maybe a little longer, as the chief strategy officer. And it's been like jumping on the proverbial rocket ship. So I'm really excited to be with both of you today and having this conversation. So thanks for have it. So last month, we saw that the administration published its long-awaited executive order on

Starting point is 00:06:50 crypto. And that was a real milestone because it finally means the government will try to put forward a coherent strategy for regulation. However, simultaneously, you've got things like the Securities and Exchange Commission Chair Gary Gensler and the Commodities Feature Commission Trading Chair kind of jockeying for position and wanting to both bring crypto under their purview. We have people like Senator Elizabeth Warren on what Politico called an anti-crypto crusade. So at this moment in time, how would you kind of grade crypto companies and other crypto lobbying or advocacy groups on their efforts in Washington? In what areas do you think they're doing well? Where do you think they're failing?

Starting point is 00:07:33 How do you think they could improve? Sitting here in Washington, I'm about half a mile from the White House. Crypto came out of nowhere as a pay for it. and an infrastructure bill. So really, although there are some people in this town who know cryptocurrency stone cold, including in the government, not just technologists, from a lobbying perspective and an advocacy perspective, it came out of nowhere. And all of a sudden, people had to get up to speed, people who know Washington, and I would put myself in this category, I'd probably put Chris in this category, Web 2 people. And I have thoughts on how we talk about Web 3 and the language

Starting point is 00:08:10 around it, but people who know this town had to learn the substance and the tech really quickly and get involved to help push back on some, frankly, sudden and poorly thought out provisions in a must-pass bill. So I think one of the things the industry has done really well is bring in a bunch of talent quickly. And so there are a lot of smart people looking at this now from an advocacy perspective and helping tell the story and tell it to the right stakeholders in the right way. I think that the messaging needs a lot of improvement. The way that the industry is talking to Washington needs a lot of improvement. And I think often I see people talking amongst themselves as opposed to connecting with the right stakeholders. So as far as what's happened, like just to

Starting point is 00:09:00 set the scene from a regulatory perspective, you've now got a couple of Republican senators who are going to be, make it difficult for anything to pass in Congress. You do have Senator Warren on a little bit of a lecturing to his door weekly. She's got something to say almost every week. The SEC is a bigger issue because they can act just quickly through rulemaking. Obviously, that's really top of mind. The White House, we recently saw President Biden holding in his hand notes that Chris probably could have written that were really excellent notes on the potential of crypto. So I think we're in a moment where the stakes are really high. There's a ton of attention on it. You've got a lot of talent that's new to crypto coming in to help sort it out, but a lot of areas to do a better job in

Starting point is 00:09:44 this town. And so if you were to give the industry a grade or the lobbying groups a grade, like what grade would you give them? Oh, that's such. I'd love to give a grade. Okay. So I would say A plus in getting involved in Washington. If you're not at the table, you're not going to be able to write the rules and they'll be written for you. So A plus on that, I'd say F minus. I'm on the spokespeople that they're using, they need much better spokespeople and use cases. Maybe not F-minus, maybe F. But really making, I think the storytelling needs a lot of work

Starting point is 00:10:17 to make it compelling to people who are in Washington who have a very specific constituency, right? 435 members of the House of Representatives, they only care about the 761,000 people in their district. And I don't hear a lot of the right story. is resonating with that crowd. Maybe an F is harsh, but I'm going to stick to that as my grades. You got to be careful if you take Professor Dickie's class. He's going to definitely be a rigorous grader. Happy to jump in. So, you know, in many respects, you always refer to things through

Starting point is 00:10:51 your own sort of experiences. So bear with me on this. It does feel to me a little bit like, and this will tell you how old I am. I am. It's a firm. People call me the crypto dad. So I am the crypto dad. Sometimes I like to think I'm the cool crypto uncle. I'm really good. But 2001 that I referenced earlier when, you know, the big name brand today, many of them Fangs really began interacting with Washington, D.C. had a similar feel. Even when I joined Airbnb in 2015 and there was, you know, almost everyday massive coverage and conversations about the so-called sharing economy, you know, it feels a little bit similar to me, but I think the differences that compared to those two periods, this is even bigger and moving even faster. Those were either, you know, 2001 tech was not quite yet the actual economy, right?

Starting point is 00:11:47 It was a part of the economy. Today it is the economy. And, you know, even in 2014-15, when the shern economy was emerging, it was still more sectoral as opposed to, thinking about the entire architecture of the internet and by extension, the economy and even, you know, even if you want to think about society and how society is organized. And so I have really three core takeaways to your specific question. I think, first of all, I think important to recognize that that executive order, you know, what we in Washington or those in Washington would call the EO, you know, it's a pretty significant moment given the fact that it is the White House under a president

Starting point is 00:12:29 planting a flag that the U.S. does want to lead on crypto slash Web3. And that executive order identified three things that are potentially challenges, right, how we think about financial instability, how we think about, quote-unquote, illicit transactions, how we think about consumer protection, but it also really emphasized some three incredible value propositions, the idea that the U.S. should be leading on innovation, the competition and competitiveness piece for the United States, the economic inclusion piece. And so you do have the president really planting the flag and even given the way D.C. works.

Starting point is 00:13:11 And Nikki was smart to address this. You've had up to this point in time various agencies, including the SEC, trying to lead on this. This was really the White House saying the White House is going to lead on this. And so we can go deeper here if you want, but it does remind me a lot of, little bit of 1996, before the Clinton administration really worked with Congress on the 96, where that eventually became the Telecom Act, which sort of created the legal structure for today's internet. There was a report done through the White House by a White House aide by the name of Ira Magizener. And, you know, IRA started off a process that ultimately was a version of an EO

Starting point is 00:13:50 where the Clinton White House really embraced what the internet could represent for the future and took it in a very different direction ultimately. So I do see some parallels to that. I think secondly, the political clay here is really still very soft. You know, what I am really struck by is that, you know, both parties, you know, are ultimately, I believe, open to the value proposition of what this can represent. Now, I think it's incumbent upon, you know,

Starting point is 00:14:20 this space, this movement to really articulate that, communicate that and demonstrate that. And I think that really is speaking to the point Nikki was making about the actual language, the story, the framing, how we talk about this, how we communicate about this. And then the third piece, I would say, and I think to me this is, at least from my perspective,

Starting point is 00:14:39 the most important and meaningful, which is both Nikki and I have been in politics for way too long. We both have our scars from it. And anyone and everyone who's in politics always talks about the fact that, you know, they're part of a movement. Very rarely is there, in fact, an actual real movement underneath that. Sometimes it's grass top.

Starting point is 00:15:00 Sometimes it's words only. It tends to have a little bit of a cotton candy feel to it. This is, in fact, an actual movement. And it's a movement because of the social value proposition that is represented by it. And it appeals to people both on the left and the right, often for the same desired outputs, maybe come in it from a little bit of different philosophical perspectives to enter into it. But to me, the next four or five months really through the midterms, it is absolutely critical for this space, for lack of a better way to describe it, to demonstrate in a way that's meaningful to elected officials that there is a crypto voter out there who matters. At the end of the day, my grand theory of the case, and I'm not suggesting I'm necessarily right, but it is certainly how I've operated, is politics drives policy that drives regular.

Starting point is 00:15:52 and that politics is foundational to it. And in the same way that a publicly traded company is evaluated by shareholders as to whether it's making money at the level that it's priced at, politicians care of whether or not they're going to be elected or reelected. And because there is such a significant movement, polling shows one in ten voters, you know, hold crypto. Those voters are going to vote on this issue. So there are in some level single issue voters and their significant.

Starting point is 00:16:22 in number, if they can demonstrate their voice over the next four or five months through the midterms, I think that then begins to sort of solidify that political clay in a bipartisan or maybe even pre-partisan way and sets up the politics going forward. And so that to me is absolutely critical as we think through the midterms and look forward. So, but at this moment in time, obviously some of what you said was kind of looking forward. But right now, what grade would you I have to say I benefited from having the opportunity to think about it as Nikki was answering that question. So I will give the proverbial duck. I'm pretty blunt, but I would give the proverbial duck on this.

Starting point is 00:17:03 I think it's an incomplete. I think we're still in the course. And I think that course plays itself over the next semester. No, no, no. I'm rolling my eyes. At this point in time. It's an incomplete. He's a master communicator.

Starting point is 00:17:19 He's a master communicator. He's not going to grade it. his own clients. So my kids go to these, you know, these schools in San Francisco, the pain area, they give them rubrics, you know, before you actually get your grade. So our rubric would be, if you're doing well here, you need to make more progress here. So give me what are, one thing that they're doing well with and one thing that they need improvement on then. I think what they're doing well with is substantively engaging with, with what I would call sort of mid-level policy makers, you know, on the Hill and the various

Starting point is 00:17:54 agencies in genuine, thoughtful, substantive conversations, as well as with some of the civil society entities, you know, who are all part of the broader echo chamber. Where I think we need to do much better on is, you know, ultimately the people who are going to be making the decisions here are those people whose names are on the ballot or whose party is on the ballot in some form or fashion. And those folks knowing that this is an issue that will have a direct impact on whether they're elected or reelected. Okay. So there's another thing that I've been wondering about. There's this whole plethora now of crypto lobbying and or Washington education groups. There's, and this isn't even a complete list, Coin Center, Blockchain Association, Crypto Council for Innovation, HodelPack, Chamber of Digital Commerce, Defy Education Fund, Web 3 Forward, GMI, there's others. Obviously, A16Z, you know,

Starting point is 00:18:53 has its own kind of powerhouse of former regulators. I'm sure Han Ventures is kind of going the same route. What's your sense of whether or not it's helpful or hurtful to have so many groups? You know, there's two on the list where, you know, one of them clearly was born out of the fact that some of the members were unhappy with what happened in that group. You know, the blockchain association allowed finance in and then Coinbase ended up leaving and, you know, launched the Crypto Council for Innovation. So, you know, what's your sense of like whether or not having some of the groups means that they end up working across purpose? or is it that they're complimentary or what's your sense of that? And this might even relate to Nikki's storytelling points. So I'm throwing a lot out there. But yeah, what's your opinion about all that? So I, well, full disclosure, I just recently signed on with the Crypto Council for

Starting point is 00:19:47 Innovation, which has a new executive director, Sheila Warren. And so, you know, check me on my grade for storytelling with that group in a couple of months. But I think that this is an, So I'm just disclosing that because you had asked about some of the politics between the groups. I actually think this is, I hear a lot of the group saying the same thing. So when the EO came out, you could just look at the statements from the different leads and they were all almost identical, which I don't think is a bad thing necessarily. I think from a policy perspective, a rising tide lifts all ships, right? So really, there's a lot of alignment. I know there's proof of stake and proof of work and people might have slight differences.

Starting point is 00:20:28 but in general, the industry is looking for a set of rules and regulations that are clear so that they can move forward with building their businesses, getting their investments done, helping move capital in a way that doesn't get, you know, essentially written down by a regulation they didn't expect. So I think from a policy perspective, everyone is trying to row in the same direction. I think that having a bunch of different spokespeople in, you know, in a perfect world, you see like the different industries, the MPAA, right? Hollywood, they have one association. Tech, which I've worked in for years and years, we used to really just have one, the Internet Association, which is now gone, and there are splintered groups with the industry in a circular firing

Starting point is 00:21:09 squad. So I think that the number of groups is not really problematic as long as everyone, again, is rowing in the same direction, even if they come at things from a slightly different angle. a bigger concern would be if they start aiming at each other and in a way that is unhelpful overall to the industry. And I don't really see, you see it a little bit, but when it comes to how they're interacting with the agencies, I don't see a ton of that. So maybe that's a little bit of a dodge.

Starting point is 00:21:38 But I think you can be more effective if you have one giant trade association for an entire industry, but that's just not how this is. And it's not even how tech is anymore. Yeah, look, I come out of the demonstration. Democratic Party, which could generously or charitably be described as a mosaic on its best days and, you know, the beauty of the mosaic coming together. And I do think, you know, if you think about

Starting point is 00:22:03 Web 3 and you do think it is what the future architecture of the Internet is going to look like and as we talked earlier, the economy, then it is by definition going to be a mosaic. You know, I do think, and I agree with Nikki, that, you know, various entities did I think a really great job in and around the EO, you know, in speaking with a consistent forward-looking voice on that. I think that is a signal or a function of the space and those who are engaging in policy and speaking on behalf of it, you know, really becoming increasingly more sophisticated in terms of how they're engaging in talking about. these issues. Still a lot of work to be done, but I do think that that was a pretty powerful sign of it. And I guess to mix my metaphors here, if you think of this as a symphony, you know, there's different instruments that can play different sounds and they all come together. And I do think that is probably consistent with the nature of the space. And what I have been

Starting point is 00:23:05 struck by and, you know, both of you have been, Nikki, a little bit longer than me, or you've been in it much longer. But what I am consistently struck by, whether talking with founders, whether the folks who are involved in policy on this, is that there is generally a shared ethos in terms of excitement for something that is going to be less centralized or something that's going to be trust-based and open and transparent and accessible that allows for people to participate in their own economics in a fundamentally different way. And so I do think that that ethos just does course through all of this.

Starting point is 00:23:41 And I do think that that actually helps bring folks together. people are going to come at it with some of their own philosophical perspectives. But I do think generally some of those thematics are, you know, tend to be, you know, very much the consensus within the space. Yeah. It's not clear yet if they've gotten all the lawmakers on board with that idea. But when, you know, speaking of kind of relationships with lawmakers, I do often see tweets by crypto executives or even sometimes former regulators who now work in crypto, lobbyists and other people in industry. where they will tweet things and they'll even tag somebody, especially people who are kind of anti-cryptos, such as Gary Gensler or Senator Elizabeth Warren. And in those tweets, they will be calling them names or mocking them. And then thousands of people will like and retweet these tweets.

Starting point is 00:24:33 And I could just imagine it leads, you know, the notifications of, you know, Gensler and Warren to fill up with these tweets that basically make fun of them or downright hostile to them. what do you think of that strategy? First of all, I think some of this is somewhat just at the rate of how social media works. And ultimately, what your goal is as someone who's on social media, if you're trying to generate as many likes as possible, go viral, there's certain ways you can do that that may be really constructive for what you're trying to build in terms of a following. but not necessarily always the most constructive thing in terms of the actual discourse, particularly when you think of who some of those targets may be,

Starting point is 00:25:21 in some ways when you engage that way, it's actually only helping them with their politics, right? Anytime you go into negotiation or conversation, this is certainly the case with an elected official or someone who's a high-level political appointee, like what is it that they're trying to solve for? Who is their constituencies? Who do they care about? And yes, you can preach.

Starting point is 00:25:40 your own choir and your own base, but in some ways that actually may then be counterproductive because it positions them with their audience in a way that just sort of reinforces everyone going to their separate corners. You know, I did a tweet yesterday at the SEC and at Gensler. You know, I began it by saying respectfully. And then, you know, the thread was basically in response to the SEC had said that they wanted to ask four questions about. crypto. And I thought those four questions basically presupposed the answers. And if you look at the four questions they were asking, it was basically taking, you know, the three challenging elements of the executive order, the illicit transactions, the stability, consumer protection,

Starting point is 00:26:25 but not the three positives that the president had put out. And so I said, well, you know, you have to begin with asking the right questions. And let's ask questions about what's fundamentally wrong with our financial system right now, particularly the SEC, you know, when it comes to access, when it comes to the underbanked, when it comes to, you know, transparency to deal with money laundering. So not to say that my tweet is the end all and be all. It's just I tried to make it as substantive as possible on issues that matter, particularly if you have a D next your name or if you're in a Democratic Party, because I do think that there is an increasingly powerful progressive argument here that needs to be made. And I do think sometimes there's a

Starting point is 00:27:13 mindset in government where you always want to go back to old rules for a new thing where that mindset really needs to be, especially if you're a progressive. A progressive believes in government making progress for society. By definition, that means you should not be defaulting to old things that have not worked to the extent that you believe our current financial system is not really is serving that brought our constituency. And so I do think that you need to make substantive arguments that actually are filtered through the politics of who you're communicating to and position and frame it as such. Nikki, what about you? I'm glad you asked this question about crypto-twitter and some of what we see. And I saw Chris's tweet that started respectfully. And I note,

Starting point is 00:27:56 it's notable because I do think a lot of the language used toward regulators on crypto-twit disrespectful, calling the chairman of the SEC a vampire or Goldman Gary or calling lawmakers Luddites. That is not an approach that is business advancing. So it depends what your goal is, right? If your goal is to get likes and retweets and attention, that might be, that might work. And I'm not a social media expert. But if your goal is to influence policy in Washington, D.C., in Brussels, that language is counterproductive, good, manners cost you nothing. Being disrespectful may cost you something. And I think it's a really bad business decision. Now, I also have, I was going to say something vulgar, but instead I'll say

Starting point is 00:28:44 echo chamber for how I would describe crypto Twitter. And I have this hunch that everyone's talking to themselves about the same thing. And I actually am an advisor to this company. It's an AI power data visualization company called Graphica. And I said, I have a hunch that Crypto which is this echo chamber, is not actually overlapping with DC influencer Twitter. Can you just pull the data really fast? And they did pull it for me. And in fact, that is the case. So whether or not Senator Warren's social media staffer or gets a lot of notifications is neither here nor there, if the tweets that are going out by these really important actors, CEOs, investors, venture funds on Twitter aren't being seen in an effective way by the right people.

Starting point is 00:29:31 So there's a disconnect. You know, only 10% of Americans are even on Twitter. Now, a lot of reporters are on Twitter. But again, you sort of, it's one, I think the tone that I see is not business advancing. It's not being full adult. And it can play into some negative stereotypes about the industry. And it's also not even, the messages aren't even landing with the right audience. And the data shows that.

Starting point is 00:29:58 So I'm going to do a little more work on pulling that. and I'd like to think about it a little more. But that was my hunch, and it does show up that there's almost no overlap between the people talking and who they want to tell a story to. Nikki, I hope that you put the results in a Twitter thread at some point. I'm going to put it in a Twitter thread, and I'm going to say respectfully, comma, crypto Twitter. You guys need to hear some. But I am planning to do it because I had that hunch, and then I'm getting some data to confirm it.

Starting point is 00:30:25 Because, again, whatever you're saying needs to be the right message aimed at the people. And I don't see that on Twitter right now. Yeah, if I could just extend that a little bit, or just to share my additional thought on this, which is 100% right. You're speaking to the choir, you're speaking to a fairly discreet circle, oftentimes on Twitter just by the very definition of how it works. But let me give a sort of what I would think of is maybe a really practical thing to think about, which is you can spend an enormous amount of time on Twitter and it may have some impact. It may not.

Starting point is 00:31:02 All the things that Nikki said, it's 100% right. I'll tell you the one thing that you could potentially do and hopefully this does not sound presumptuous, but if you wanted to impact the politics on this, which is, and Nikki will know this,

Starting point is 00:31:13 and Nikki should jump in if she has a different view. But, you know, every August, members of Congress have a couple weeks off. And they will spend that entire time doing town halls. Those town halls are particularly important in an election year, which this is, particularly important in an election year where there's five or seven states that will determine the Senate and where there's roughly 20, maybe 40 House districts that will determine who controls the House. But no matter what, every single member,

Starting point is 00:31:43 even if they're in a safe district, for the most part, goes back and does these town halls. And in addition to tweeting out, if you actually showed up at one of these town halls and just asked a question about where member A, B, or C stands on crypto and Web 3, five or ten people showing up at each of those town halls will in and of itself dramatically shift the politics on this. Because every member will then come back from their August recess. They'll all talk amongst themselves. And they will have seen that there are people who are literally voting with their feet, you know, version of the African proverb, to show up at these town halls and express themselves.

Starting point is 00:32:24 And because there is a real movement, that should be something that folks can do and would have a huge impact. So I do hope that folks think about that because I do think that that is a way to demonstrate that there are people who really care about this in a way that actually is meaningful to those elected officials. I think Chris talking tactics is really smart because, and this is, I don't want to seem like overly that I've been observing Chris's career from afar for a while. But when you joined Airbnb, so again, I'm in D.C. almost overnight, if I stepped foot near the capital complex, I would get a targeted ad featuring a host, an Airbnb host, who lived in Southeast D.C. or Anacostia, explaining how, and home sharing in D.C., especially, this was a market that was really hostile and remained somewhat hostile to Airbnb. You'd get an ad of someone saying, I'm making money by renting out

Starting point is 00:33:16 an extra bedroom or a basement apartment. So it was the right messengers, the right message. And it was so strategic. I mean, it was, you could see it was geo-fenced in this You'd walk, you'd step, you'd get the ad. So it was a really effective campaign, Chris, I mean, and I remember observing it and being like, damn, this is good. This is really good. And I think at Uber, when I was at Uber, we did things, which I would also encourage these companies to think about if you don't want to go to a town hall in person, which a lot

Starting point is 00:33:44 of people who are active in crypto are very online, we would encourage, we would just put into the app their legislator's phone number. reach out to your member of Congress and just get that sort of grassroots movement contacting them directly. So instead of spending time on Twitter, I think you can think tactically to Chris's point about activating the politics behind it. And if you are going to speak directly to elected using online tools, take a page out of the Airbnb Playbook, which was really effective. All right. So this has been so fascinating. We are going to talk in a little bit about the number of pro-crypto regulators who have moved into the industry. But first, a quick,

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Starting point is 00:37:20 to learn more. Back to my conversation with Nikki and Chris. There's been somewhat of a mass exodus, I would say, of pro-crypto-regulators to have gone to industry. We've seen former SEC Chairman Jay Clayton, acting chief of staff Mick Mulvaney, Trump OCC Chief Brian Brooks, Trump CFTC Chair Christopher John Carlo, former CFTC Commissioner Brian Quintens, Obama's ambassador to China, and former Senator Max Bacchus, there's so many.

Starting point is 00:37:52 And what's your sense of whether or not this just kind of leaves behind all the anti-crypto regulators or in general, like, what is the relationship that regulators tend to have with their former colleagues who have gone to industry? Can those people be effective once they are on the outside? I don't know that I would describe the people in the buildings in Washington, Treasury, SEC. When you're thinking of the staff as anti-crypto, I actually think that there's a lot of benefit in having financial,

Starting point is 00:38:19 regulations in general, set aside crypto. Financial regulations in general are incredibly complicated. Other than health care and transportation, it's the most regulated industry we have. So having people who really understand how the staff works, what they need to see, what the rules are, this is a jurisdictional gray area, which is going to take some expertise. I don't think there's a downside. I think it's fine for people to have been public servants and then go into the private sector and take that expertise and help get the strategy right. But I think you're right that some of these funds are stacked like cordwood with former regulators. But I think there's plenty of people left in the buildings. And it'll actually help connect the tissue between the funds, especially who have

Starting point is 00:39:03 people and people at these companies and who's left in the buildings. But there are plenty of staffers still left who are going to need to learn and get up to speed. And they'll be able to speak the same language. So obviously, as we mentioned before, this is an election year. And we are seeing a number of congressional candidates that are taking up pro-cryptostances. And they're generating new donations for themselves as a result. But watching this, I do remember that in the 2018 midterms, the left was kind of jazzed up about trying to counter President Trump. And they kind of donated to a lot of candidates. But then the people in those districts didn't actually vote for them. And so it was sort of this conception of like outsiders trying to influence these elections. So I wondered, you know,

Starting point is 00:39:48 in this case where we are seeing crypto people trying to support these different congressional candidates, does that just backfire because it makes it feel like outsiders are trying to have this undue influence in the local district? Or do you feel that every dollar or Bitcoin or ether or whatever matters, no matter where it comes from? Nikki, you want to jump in and I'll go after you, you and I may have, this may be the place you and I may diverge a little bit, but this will be an interesting conversation. Part of this conversation. I have a feeling we may diverge. And by the way, Chris is the only one of us who has worked for someone who actually got elected

Starting point is 00:40:19 president. So here's, I've seen, obviously, there's a lot of people who are Bitcoiners running for, or not just, that's sort of a nomenclature for a few of the candidates, but crypto enthusiasts running for office. And you are now starting to see PACs stood up to give to these candidates. And, but we know 90% of incumbents are reelected. So I think, I would think very carefully before I would write a check to someone challenging an incumbent. I think it might be a better use of money to write a check to an incumbent and get your message and get your moment in front of that person to make your case. Because we just know that's just the way politics is. The incumbents almost always win.

Starting point is 00:41:00 And if you endorse an opponent, you're going to potentially create an enemy. So in general, try to give to the incumbent if you can, unless it's a race that's up for grabs. I think that Chris made a really good point about if there are people who are one-issue voters getting that message out. And money is necessary in politics. So, again, like, I think it's fine to give money. I think it's a really good way to make sure your message gets out there and make sure that people are hearing it. But I would be really thoughtful about endorsing so-called crypto enthusiasts over someone who's likely going to retain their seat. Yeah, I think actually we're probably pretty close on this, which maybe says something pretty powerful.

Starting point is 00:41:44 You know, the building block elements of campaigns, politics, you know, message, money, masses, right? Those are sort of the three elements to think about it really in simplistic ways. But I think for those in Web 3 in crypto, you know, I said earlier that the clay is still softier. Some have described it as a pre-partisan environment. And that's eventually going to evolve. And I do think there is a window here to evolve from pre-partisan to actually bipartisan, which would make this one of the few issues in the entire country that could actually be bipartisan. And that is, to me, the opportunity that is in front of all of us right now.

Starting point is 00:42:33 And so I would totally agree with Nikki's point. which as I would look at races that I was going to engage in, that would either fall into a couple different categories. You know, are there primaries? So it's a D on D or an R on R, where maybe one candidate is perceived as really being pro-crypto and maybe the other race. I frankly don't think there's going to be that many of those types of races,

Starting point is 00:42:55 but to the extent that there are great if you want to get involved with those. I think, you know, better to spend, you know, time and effort on demonstrating to those folks who are going to be running this year that there are voters out there who really do matter. That means showing up at these town halls. That means raising money, particularly for incumbents. I forget what the last stat is, but well over 90, I think 95% of incumbents get reelected. And thinking about who those incumbents are going to be that are going to be in, and this gets down to sort of tactical brass tax, but this matters. who's in leadership, who is chairing which particular committees, who's sitting on which particular

Starting point is 00:43:38 subcommittees, and really beginning to think about that in a fairly sophisticated way in terms of who you're supporting and how you're thinking about it. Right there are three open seats that are going to very likely go Republican, you know, Missouri, Missouri maybe because of some of the primary politics, but likely, Wyoming, Oklahoma. Like those are three interesting areas to to think about because there's going to almost by definition be a winner from one party and an opportunity to get in there early. And then really using the message piece of this, which is to really talk about why crypto does have a real impact on issues that those running for office should care about. But as Nikki has talked earlier, to do it in a way that actually an everyday person could be able to understand.

Starting point is 00:44:30 right? This is an opportunity to actually participate as an owner in our economy, for your labor to actually get rewarded in a more fair way. I mean, that's an argument that works. You know, I'm more familiar with the left, but works on the left, you know, a more transparent, a more accessible system. You shouldn't have to be paying enormous fees to even get access to the financial system. But actually communicating why this should matter, again, I'm talking from the left and from a Democrat perspective right now, but why that should matter. for someone who's running. And then I think there's going to be a couple races where there's some interesting folks who are running that would potentially be worth thinking about. You know, you have a Pennsylvania Senate primary where you have, you know, someone who's, you know, very progressive who has, you know,

Starting point is 00:45:19 really begun to sort of look at crypto in an interesting way, the lieutenant governor, you know, a former big Bernie Sanders supporter. Like you're beginning, John Federman, you're beginning to see, excuse me. Well, I forgot his name. It's Federman, John Federman, right? But you're beginning to see, I will share one story.

Starting point is 00:45:36 I'm not going to say who it is because I will, I don't want to violate any, any, any, any, any, any, any, any, any, any, any, any, any, any, any, I also shared with them that six and ten crypto holders, I also shared with them that six and ten crypto holders, voted for Joe Biden and that it over-indexes on people of color, particularly Latino and black voters. And so put it on your next poll. This candidate put on his next poll. It popped for all the obvious reasons. And again, without revealing too much, I think this is a candidate that has now really begun to talk comfortably and is embracing that social value proposition for Web3 because that person has now recognized that this actually is a winning political argument. Like, I actually think that if we can do that some version of those town halls in August and get candidates to start putting this on their polls, once they start to put this on their

Starting point is 00:46:42 polls, the raw numbers are going to break through. And these are voters who do really care about this. And once that starts to get on their polls, that then translates into the politics here. Yeah, actually, you know, I'm glad that you brought up this issue, kind of, especially in the light of Democratic politics. politics because I was surprised to read the following in this recent Washington Post article. In the 2020 elections, crypto workers gave more than $730,000 in direct contributions to Democratic candidates and party committees, nearly nine times what they donated to Republicans, according to an

Starting point is 00:47:16 analysis by the Center for Responsive Politics. So this was fascinating to me because I'm sure you're well aware that there's this perception that the crypto industry is more closely aligned with Republicans. So do you have a sense of like why there is this disconnect? Or isn't just that there isn't a disconnect. And Democrats just received more crypto donations because it was perceived that kind of Trump was losing power. And, you know, it was like a more cynical kind of donation where it's just they were like, oh, the Democrats are rising in power. We should donate to them. Yeah, I mean, I'll jump in.

Starting point is 00:47:47 And then Nikki, you should certainly share obviously your perspective. I think obviously there's always, you know, that cynical element, right? And it's probably less cynical and more just the political reality of who's in power and who's in these leaders. leadership positions. But I do think it goes deeper than that. You know, I do think that, you know, as I said, 60% of crypto holders are Biden voters. So I think ideologically and philosophically, I think it's fairly well distributed. And so it should not be that surprising that people who began as Democrats are giving as Democrats. I also think there's a third thing going on here, which is there is a generation of Democrats.

Starting point is 00:48:28 And there's a little bit of a generational divide. In the same way, there is just a generational divide on Web 3 writ large. But you see a Corey Booker or Richie Torres, Richie Torres Congressman from New York. His district is adjacent to AOC's district. Senator Booker, you know, really great senator from New Jersey. But both of them are forward-looking folks, but also both folks who really care.

Starting point is 00:48:54 about progressive arguments when it comes to economic participation for communities that have typically not been able to be full participants in the U.S. economy. They have come to it, you know, through those issues. And not surprisingly, both of these guys are incredible retail politicians. Like Torres and diners and, you know, walking through his neighborhood, you know, every weekend, you know, Corey lives, you know, in these neighborhoods and spends time talking to people who talk about this, right? they actually have a real sense of it. You know, both Nikki and I have been in politics. I think one of the, you know, in tech, they always talk about signals, right?

Starting point is 00:49:28 You get A, B, test signals. You know, the signals for, at least the Democratic side in politics, are where the mayors are, right? Because mayors tend to really be that first sort of early radar sign of issues. And it's really interesting. Is a single issue voter? Is that what that means? Well, no. By single, I mean just like a political sign, like advanced radar.

Starting point is 00:49:48 Like you're getting pins that there's issues out there. Signals. I'm sorry. the different definitions. But those mayors are picking up the power of this issue for their constituents. As a reason, Eric Adams in New York, Francis Suarez in Miami, mayor of Reno. I mean, urban mayors, mayors from smaller towns, they're all picking this up because they actually have a direct connection to their constituents and to their voters. And so I think there are reasons why you have seen that type of distribution of the contributions. And it's not just purely because

Starting point is 00:50:24 the Democrats are currently in power. It is because their voters actually do care about this. And those signs and signals are being picked up by those elected officials, particularly the ones who are really talented. Yeah, I have to say, I'm a fan of Cory Booker because I have known him since I was 16. I did Stanford summer school and he was my RA. And even back then, like you could tell he was very special. And I continue to think that. So it's really funny. So my wife who will kick me now, but, you know, she and Corey were in Stanford together

Starting point is 00:50:57 and certainly friendly at Stanford. So you guys may have all overlapped. And I went to Amherst College with his twin brother, Carrie, who is really talented. So this is a booker-lovin right now. But, you know, but a preternaturally, I mean, when you first met him, like everyone, And like you immediately do, like, he had that sort of intangible quality. Yeah, yeah. No, it's fascinating because, of course, now he's such a superstar.

Starting point is 00:51:22 But even back then when I was 16, like we all knew there was something special and different about him. But like any really smart, talented politician has the ability to, like most politicians sort of follow where the voters are. You know, good politicians get a sense of where the voters are going and sort of get there at about the same time. And really, really talented politicians get a sense of where those voters want to go and it helps lead them to. that place. And I think, you know, I think he and Torres, by the way, Richie Torres is incredibly talented as well. You know, both have, I think, that quality. And that's, and I think you're seeing that and the reason why they've emerged as leaders on this. So, Nikki, did you want to talk about whether or not there is this disconnect between

Starting point is 00:52:02 this reality of kind of where crypto voters are politically versus the perception? Or I would connect this to messaging, right? And storytelling. instead of just necessarily the raw politics. And by the way, I know the mayors are for it, but it's also sexy. Like, it might be that their constituents are interesting. And then they're like notifications just flow up. It's sexy. I'm waiting for Saturday Night Live to incorporate Bitcoin into Mayor Adams' next swagger sketch because I do think it adds some, and not in a bad way. I mean, it is. It's a cutting edge issue. She's showing familiarity with it is a smart political move. It's astute. But the three categories of voters, I think, are really important, have to do with. messaging and where I think there's an opportunity. One, which Chris mentioned these groups, but one is Latino voters, right? So if you have a diaspora community from El Salvador, people who are working here have paid, you know, paid taxes on their money and are sending

Starting point is 00:52:59 it overseas to family and to relatives, they're paying a huge fee for that. That's a great use case for crypto. I think that's one story that should be told, and those are voters. Hispanic voters really, really matter to Democrats, independent voters. So Chris mentioned. Joe Biden voters being Democrats. I'm a Joe Biden voter. I'm not a Democrat. So I think you get independents who have sort of a centrist, light touch regulatory framework who are also really interested in having potentially some competition in the currencies that we can use. In my cash app, I can choose dollars. I can choose Bitcoin. And that appeals to me as someone who has a little bit of a libertarian streak and then independence. And then I think the third are people who feel that,

Starting point is 00:53:43 and because it is that the financial system is rigged. So I've had to pay bail money for a relative. I'm not proud of that, but you're paying a huge fee to Western Union. They're not taking credit cards. And so if you've ever had to deal with bail bondsmen, with overdraft fees, with all of the ways that the system is rigged in a way that is more punitive to the people who can least afford to pay extra fees, that's another really good use case for this situation that also appeals to voters that Democrats don't want to lose. So I think if you start to tell real stories rather than theoretical stories and you tie them to voting groups within the districts where people are running, that's a really effective, in my opinion, way to approach this midterm election. And Chris made a great point. We're in the thick of it.

Starting point is 00:54:27 We have four or five months. And this is the moment to land that just right because it is going to determine who's on committees and how they talk about this going forward. Yeah, and I'll tag on two things. You just prompted me as you were with your smart comments. The first, I think all the use cases Nikki described is right. I think it's really important that those founders and platforms and protocols that are out there that are doing some of this type of work that they really demonstrate it in concrete ways

Starting point is 00:54:56 so that these are, we evolved from being aspirational to people seeing the actual utility. I do think amongst the things that's happened in the last two months, and I actually believe, have reason to believe, had a significant impact on the executive order. was people seeing the utility of crypto and Ukraine. You know, the fact that $100 plus million was, you know, crypto dollars got into Ukraine almost instantaneously. More than the USAID was able to get in there in that same time period, the fact that Ukraine had a framework that they could actually use this,

Starting point is 00:55:32 apply hardware and then actually buy hardware and needed stuff in the moment. In fact, the company like Arweave created a way to be, able to document in a immutable way, you know, potential war crimes. All of those things happen and people sort of saw the utility of that. So everything that Nikki described is 100% right and how we think about elevating those founders and protocols platforms that are actually doing this type of work so people really see it. And even getting really smart and putting that into some of the districts and states on members who are going to really matter. Ohio and West Virginia are important states, you know, when you start to think.

Starting point is 00:56:10 about, you know, who's going to be making what decisions, you know, off of the hill. And then the last thing, I will just say, you know, if you're an elected official or wanting to run for office, most elected officials, particularly at the federal level, are coming from districts where the races are frankly one and lost in the primary. Which really interesting about crypto is it applies to both those folks running them primaries because they are one-issue voters and it does really, you know, evenly distributed more or or less across political lines, but because they're also one issue voters in this much smaller subset of races that are genuinely really sort of competitive general election races, whether in the Senate

Starting point is 00:56:49 or those House seats. These also end up being actual swing voters because they're going to vote on this issue. And it's 10% of the electorate. And so just like it's a raw tax, raw politics of this, it matters for the primary and it also matters in a general. And that's pretty unique for a subject. for a policy issue, which then goes to part of the political power that really exists here. So many people on the left have been confounded by Elizabeth Warren's anti-crypto stance since it's perceived that the Web3 ethos would be aligned with her kind of anti-big tech, anti-big bank platform. If you were to have a meeting with Elizabeth Warren today on crypto, how would you approach that discussion to try to persuade her of its merits?

Starting point is 00:57:37 Do you want me to take that? Yeah. I have not had a conversation with her about this. I've been in rooms with her before and I've had conversations on other policy issues. And I would begin with the predicate that she herself has identified. You know, I don't think there has been, and to her credit, a more eloquent voice and a more powerful voice against both legacy gatekeepers. and even some of the newer gatekeepers that exist who have, you know, created and contributed to a system where 10% of the country holds 80-something plus percent

Starting point is 00:58:19 of the value of Wall Street. And there are structural issues that will, that have allowed that and will perpetuate that. She has talked about it. It is sort of the center of, it's why she ran for office in the first place and has been the center of her political philosophy in which she's all about. for organizing principle. Yeah, so I know you haven't talked with her about this, but do you have a sense of like why she?

Starting point is 00:58:43 Let me, here's how I would then go to the conversation. Now, then I'll address why I think that exists. Obviously, I don't know. But I think, you know, really trying to have this passionate but logical conversation about the fact that, you know, what Web 3 represents is the ability to use technology to fundamentally disrupt for humans

Starting point is 00:59:01 and not at the expense of humans by actually allowing you to circumvent those historical structural blockers that exist. If you, you know, there has not been a meaningful recalibration. Again, I'm talking from a left perspective, from an Elizabeth Warren perspective, you know, there has not been a meaningful recalibration of the relationship between capital, labor, government, and society, really since the New Deal.

Starting point is 00:59:27 And the New Deal was developed for an industrial age. We're in a digital age. And how do you recalibrate that to get the type of results that she wants? it is not going to be applying these old rules to this new thing. This is the biggest opportunity that has come along to fundamentally restructure that relationship to provide and put in place and facilitate a more fair and more open and more just and more equitable society. And I think walking her through that in a way that could be as dispassionate and logic-based

Starting point is 00:59:56 and fact-based as possible, she is someone that does care about those issues. Now, the why, I think that, first of all, I think, there's just generational aspects to this. I went through this with Airbnb. I'd walk into these congressional offices, and I'd have this conversation and people say, that's really weird. Why would anyone ever want to rent their house out?

Starting point is 01:00:17 And then I would do two things. I would point out that probably at some point in their life, they had rented out a beach house or a lake house. It wasn't any different. And then they sort of think about that. And then I would say, let's ask your staff. Right. And virtually every staff member raised their hand

Starting point is 01:00:33 as being active users. And I would say, go ask your kids. And it would inevitably be that their kids were active users. I think there is a dynamic of that generational aspect that applies here. I would strongly suspect that there are people who are younger generation who are more in supporters who probably have a view that's very similar to the view that I'm expressing and espousing about the power here. And I also just think that sort of the way that the politics are sort of being played

Starting point is 01:01:03 here a little bit. And frankly, some of the, and we talked about this at the very beginning. And Nikki, I think, was great on this. Some of the attacks that have come in, and sort of pushed her, you know, further and further to really dig in here. There was a hearing, I think it was two weeks ago where you had, I think, the CEO of chain analysis who was being asked, yeah, right, being asked a question about, you know, whether there was any, you know, evidence of, you know, money laundering and crypto being used. and, you know, he tried to answer the question, ultimately gave a really powerful answer. And to his credit, you know, remained amazingly calm as he was consistently interrupted by her.

Starting point is 01:01:45 You know, and she has someone, you know, in the past who's always approached things with an intellectual rigor and intellectual honesty. And I do hope that we can get back to that place. His answer was really compelling. No, there isn't any information. It's not public blockchain. We actually can use this to actually build a much, better system than the one that currently exists where there's enormous amounts, you know, five to ten percent of the global GDP, you know, suffering from money laundering.

Starting point is 01:02:09 That's in fiat, not in crypto. So hopefully she gets to a place, but I do think part of this is going to be ultimately stakeholders and constituents, entities that are relevant to her politically, that she trusts, you know, beginning to have some of those conversations. I think that may begin with some of her colleagues, that younger generation, engaging on these issues and building conversations that way. I don't think attacking her is going to necessarily contribute that movement. It also just may be the case, and this happens in politics, that you have, you know,

Starting point is 01:02:41 the Democrats end up sort of being somewhat bifurcated by generation on this. And I think Republicans tend to come to this a little bit easier. Again, Nikki can speak to that better than I can. But even getting the Democrats with some on board, some not, some somewhere in between, you know, that's progress on this issue because our politics, we do live. in a liberal democracy and it is based on participation and is based on different views. So, Nikki, if you're going to meet with Senator Warren this afternoon, how would you approach the discussion? So if I were going to meet with Senator Warren this afternoon, I would probably

Starting point is 01:03:16 bring to her a statistic that I find appalling, which is that not just a majority of women in this country, but a vast majority of women in this country have absolutely no investments, none. retirement accounts, other investments. Is something else that, you know, I should start posting to Twitter. Maybe I'll start posting my analysis. I had a friend crunch the numbers. It's your second thread. You have two threads now.

Starting point is 01:03:38 I have a threat after this conversation. But what I'm finding and what I think would be a compelling argument, potentially for Senator Warren, is the idea that there is a risk aversion among women, but also there is lack of access to institutional investing through different retirement accounts and otherwise. So most women in America have absolutely no investment. And if cryptocurrency offers a gateway into something that can earn some sort of return, why wouldn't you be in favor of that?

Starting point is 01:04:05 And there's a paternalism that I hear at times coming out of Senator Warren's office and from her testimony and her comments around people shouldn't be subjected to scams and losing money. But instead, I think really thinking of this as an opportunity to get people who are not in the investing world, who are not in the capital markets, who are not. able to join a pre-IPO tech company who are not able to, they're not an accredited investor with the amount of wealth you need. This is an opportunity for them to start to touch one of our greatest natural resources in the United States, right, which is dough. And so if they can start making money, there are disadvantaged groups and groups that are not included in women as a really

Starting point is 01:04:48 strong use case for this, that this might just be a small entry point into partaking in that wealth building. And I think that's a really compelling. Maybe I'm not a not from the left. So I'm probably, maybe that wouldn't be compelling to her. But I think that there's something to be done on looking at who is left out completely of the investment opportunities in the United States and how this can be one easy, accessible way for them to put a toe in that water and earn a little bit of money. All right. So we've covered a whole range of topics, but obviously, as we've been discussing, you know, this is a midterm election year. We do have this new executive order. The government is going to be coming up with its coherent strategy for

Starting point is 01:05:25 crypto. What are you? going to be looking out for in the next, like, let's say, year or so in terms of developments? Like, what are things that you're watching and, you know, things that you're kind of hoping for in terms of crypto lobbying and crypto policy changes? Well, I think, I mean, again, all the action is going to be in the agencies. And you've got Chairman Gensler, I think, has an eye toward Treasury. I think he's auditioning a little bit for Treasury Secretary. This is just a prediction.

Starting point is 01:05:52 I suspect that he'll, when Secretary Yellen, leaves. or retires, which there are rumors that that's going to happen imminently, that would be a position he'd be interested in. So I think we're going to look at the agencies. I think absolutely we're going to be looking at some kind of digital dollar. We've seen, as Chris said, the White House is leading and in a really positive way on this issue. So I think we've got a little bit of breathing room to try to lay the framework in a positive way for the industry. And the midterms matter because that's going to determine who's on the committee and who's in the game. But we have a little breathing room on the substance itself, I think. And then what I'm personally going to be looking at is the way we

Starting point is 01:06:29 talk about things. So I'll use one very specific example, but we've got to be better with the language. Chris said trust-based, which I love because that makes sense to a layperson. But the industry, crypto, talks about trustless. And they mean that in a positive way. But no one thinks of that as positive. Trustless does not seem positive. So I'm going to really be doing a lot of work at trying to laymanize things, make it accessible. There are no dumb questions. If people have fears around this, We need to address them, not avoid them. And so personally, I'm going to be trying to work on the storytelling with these groups. And I think we've got a little bit of time on some of the regulations,

Starting point is 01:07:04 except for things that might come out quickly of the agencies, which, as you mentioned, Laura, a lot of former regulators are now on the industry side helping track that closely. I'll jump in, which is like, you know, as we've talked about, I think, extensively here, you know, playing to win on the politics, but playing to win in a sophisticated way. so that we make this, translate this from prepartisan to bipartisan. And I just can't understate, overstate, understate, reinforce, whatever the phrase is, enough how important the next four months are going to be on that. I mean, I fundamentally believe, you know, Web 3 succeeds period, full stop.

Starting point is 01:07:44 People want a less centralized Internet, that architecture always is going to evolve. I think how fast that happens will be impacted to a significant degree. as it relates to our success and being able to make this a bipartisan issue. Obviously, some of the legislation and regulatory activity could be very much impacted one way or the other, depending what the results are from the midterms and how maturity controls play out. You know, it's not, I think, it's not inconceivable to me that you could begin to see some version of what happened with the Telecom Act, which is both parties sort of see. as in their political interest to actually, and this is me being optimistic, by the way,

Starting point is 01:08:29 but it's always important to be optimistic, seeing that this is actually in the country's interest and in their stakeholder and voters' interest to actually really embrace this. There may be a desire from both parties to actually find something like that for their own political reasons. On the other side of the midterms, again, that may be optimistic given the realities of current politics. And then I just, I think Nikki is so right on. the importance of us starting to use language that everyday people can understand.

Starting point is 01:09:02 I totally get and understand where the language originally comes from. But privacy is better than zero knowledge, right? Blockchain itself is obviously the technical word for it, but it's block and chain. Like those are not necessarily words that everyday people associate with positive things. You know, crypto, right? Not necessarily, you know, many people don't understand what that means. And then, you know, it's not necessarily positive.

Starting point is 01:09:30 Again, I'm saying this with respect to all the folks out there who are in this and listening. And that's not a criticism. It's just a reality of, you know, if we want to, part of the success for crypto and web through will be how quickly we can mainstream this. Because it does have this incredible value proposition for people. And so let's help them mainstreamed by explaining and communicating it in ways that actually matters. to them. I mean, I, again, not to keep referencing my own personal experiences, but when I joined Airbnb in 2015, right, people thought that was a weird thing. We actually spent an enormous amount of time, both explain what the value proposition were for hosts who made most of the money, but also why this was a really cool experience if you were a guest. You know, today is the largest, depending on how you want to look at it, the largest travel company in the world. And, you know, Airbnb is a noun in a verb that everyone knows around the world. you know, this is going to move really fast, but the pace of success and ultimate, the success of it is going to be dictated in no small part by our ability to actually communicate it in ways that people understand. So let's just keep giving that thought.

Starting point is 01:10:33 I totally get that there is a little bit of a club-like atmosphere to this. And it's a cool thing to have, you know, all the language. And, you know, I have two teenage boys. So I see elements of that in my daily existence when they have entire conversations in the car that I'm not supposed to understand. but we do want to mainstream this. We do want to win in the politics. We do want this to impact everyday people. That's why we're all in this.

Starting point is 01:10:57 So let's talk about it in ways that matter to people. All right. Well, this has been such a fascinating discussion. Thank you both so much for coming on the show. There were so many other topics that we did not have time for. So I will definitely be covering them in future episodes. Would love to have you back. Where can people learn more about each of you and your work?

Starting point is 01:11:17 So actually, you can find me on Twitter, Nikki Christoph, and there's a link in that to my website, my consulting work, some of the speaking that I do, my background. I am not that active on Twitter, but it is a place to find it, and I've been encouraged to be more active based on this conversation. I'm looking forward to what we all can do this next conversation, and we can react and respond to the two threads

Starting point is 01:11:40 that Nikki has now committed to on this podcast. You can find me at Twitter at Chris Lahane. And also, I am, as we talked about the very beginning, at Hahn Ventures. And we do have a website out there. We're on Mirror for those. We're trying to be very, very OG to the space. But yeah, I'm out there on Twitter and happy to connect and appreciate everyone who is listening to this. And Laura, thank you for, it was a really fun conversation.

Starting point is 01:12:11 And I definitely feel like I left smarter than when I came on. So thanks for having me. Yeah, thank you so much, Laura. Perfect. Well, thank you both so much for coming on Unchained. And thanks to everyone for joining us today to learn more about Nikki, Chris, and Christoph and Coe, and Han Ventures. Checker the show on us for this episode. Unchained is produced by me, Laura Shin, with help from Anthony Yun, Daniel Nuss, Mark Murdoch, Shishonk, and CLK transcription. Thanks for listening.

Unchained - Why Crypto Twitter’s Disrespect Toward Regulators Is a ‘Really Bad Business Decision’ - Ep.342

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