Unclear and Present Danger - Crimson Tide (feat. Tony Gilroy)

Episode Date: December 31, 2023

On this week’s episode of Unclear and Present Danger — the last episode of the year! — we watched Tony Scott’s 1995 submarine action thriller, “Crimson Tide,” starring Denzel Washington, Gene Hackman, Viggo Mortenson and James Gandolfini, among many others.And to discuss “Crimson Tide,” we have an esteemed guest! Tony Gilroy, who you may know from his work on the Bourne films, political thrillers like “State of Play,” “Beirut,” legal thrillers like “Michael Clayton” or the recent Star Wars Disney Plus series “Andor.” Now, if you haven’t watched “Crimson Tide” — and you should, stop this episode and go put it on — here’s the score. In “Crimson Tide,” the crew of the USS Alabama, a nuclear submarine, is put on high alert as civil war breaks out in post-Soviet Russia. Military units loyal to the ultra-nationalist rebel have taken control of a nuclear missile installation and have threatened nuclear war if threatened. The USS Alabama is commanded by Captain Frank Ramsey, a career veteran of the submarine corps. He has chosen the cerebral and inexperienced Lieutenant Commander Ron Hunter to serve as his new executive officer. The two clash, eventually coming to an impasse over an Emergency Action Message order a missile launch against the Russian base. Ramsey wants to move forward while Hunter wants to delay action until the USS Alabama can clarify a second message received but interrupted as the crew confronted an enemy submarine.What follows is a confrontation, a mutiny, and a race to confirm the Alabama’s true orders lest they fire the shot that starts a nuclear conflagration.The tagline for “Crimson Tide” was “Danger Runs Deep.”You can find “Crimson Tide” for rent or purchase on iTunes and Amazon.Our next episode will be on “Executive Decision,” directed by Stuart Baird and starring Kurt Russell, Halle Berry and John Leguizamo. Connor Lynch produced this episode. Artwork by Rachel Eck.Contact us!Follow us on Twitter!John GanzJamelle BouieUnclearPodAnd join the Unclear and Present Patreon! For just $5 a month, patrons get access to a bonus show on the films of the Cold War, and much, much more. Our latest episode of the patreon is on the 1984 Robert Altman drama on Richard Nixon, “Secret Honor.”

As you no doubt heard, my exo has penicitis. Your name was at the top of the list. That's good to know, sir. It was a short list. There's trouble in Russia. So they called us, and we're going over there and bringing the most lethal killing machine ever devised. The last time we hit this state of emergency

was 32 and a half years ago during the Cuban Missile Crisis. So this is what it's all about, gentlemen. It's what we train for. It's an emergency ship. Diving officers, you murder the ship, make a depth 1-50 feet. On the 1-M-C. Dive, dive! This year...

It'll properly formatted emergency action message from the National Command Authority. What we've always known... Bravo, Echo, Echo, Echo, Charlie, Alpha. Becomes what we've always feared. Gentlemen, this is the captain. Russian rebels have threatened to launch against our country and are fueling right now. Now.

This is not a drill. Now... Sir, we will possibly submerge someone. You find out who that is. Receiving emergency action message, recommend alert one. The battle for survival begins. That's a message fragment. So, we don't know what this message means.

Our target package could have changed. I've made the decision. There's no place for fear. He's lost his nerve. I'd rather go out myself and get this one wrong. There's no room for mistakes. If we launch and we're wrong, what's left of Russia is going to launch at us. I'm captain of this boat.

I don't have to think. There's no time for doubt. The missile system's ready to launch in six minutes. You repeat this order or I'll find somebody who will. I'll know you won't, sir. And nothing can stop the tide. Come on, Sean Art, torpedo's in the water. Right forward.

1,000 yards at closing dive. Make you dip 1,200 feet. Fire one! No! Give me the missile key, Mr. Hunter. Sir, we are going down. I'm the commander of this ship! Crimson Tide.

God help you if you're wrong. If I'm wrong, then we're at war. God help us all. a podcast about the political and military thrillers of the 1990s and what they say about the politics of that decade. I'm Jamal Bowie. I'm a columnist for the New York Times opinion section. I'm John Gans. I write the substack newsletter on Popular Front, and I'm the author of the forthcoming When the Clock Broke, which still coming out in June, and I would still appreciate if you pre-ordered it. Yes, as I will never tire of reminding listeners, pre-orders are the way to go for book sales. Please go buy your local bookseller and request that they have this book in stock.

And I could just have a pre-writer. And we will almost certainly talk about it on the show when the book comes out. I mean, there will be book-related stuff that we do. So keep that on the horizon. So for this week's episode of Unclear and Present Danger, which will be our final episode of the year, we watched Tony Scott's 1995, I guess you call Submarine Action Thriller Crimson Tide, starring Denzel Washington, Gene Hackman, Fiego Mortensen, and James Gandalfini, among many other recognizable character actors. And to discuss Crimpton Tide, we have a guest.

You may know him from his work on a wide variety of work. The Bored films, political thrillers like State of Play, Beirut, thrillers like Michael Clayton, or the recent Star Wars series Andor, Welcome to the show, Tony Gilroy. It's nice to be here. Thank you for having me. Thank you so much for joining us. It's rare that we talk to anyone who is even remotely involved in making movies.

So I'm very excited to have you here with us. Now, listeners, if you have not watched Crimson Tide, I think you should. You should just stop this episode now and go put on the movie. It's a lot of fun. I had a great time watching it last night. But if you're going to persist, here is the basic plot synopsis in Crimson Tide. The crew of the USS Alabama, a nuclear submarine, is put on high alert as a kind of civil war breaks out in post-Soviet Russia. Military units loyal to the ultra-nationalist leader in Russia have taken control of a nuclear missile installation and threatened nuclear war if anyone tries to stop them.

USS Alabama is commanded by Captain Frank Ramsey, a career veteran of the submarine corps, has chosen the inexperienced and very cerebral lieutenant commander Ron Hunter, the service's new executive officer, the two class, eventually coming to an impasse over an emergency action message or the order of a missile launch against the Russian base. Ramsey wants to move forward, well Hunter wants to delay action until the USS Alabama can verify a second message received but interrupted as the crew confronted an enemy submarine. What follows is a lot of drama and tension, a mutiny, a race to confirm the Alabama's true orders, lest they fire the shot that starts a nuclear war. And then

then we see how that unfolds. The tagline for Crimson Tide was Danger Runs Deep. And you can find Crimson Tide for rent or purchase on iTunes and Amazon. It opened on May 12, 1995. So I guess I guess it probably opened summer blockbuster season that year. So, John, what does the near times look like that day? There's some interesting things directly relevant to this. Treaty aimed at halting spread of nuclear weapons extended. 170 nations agree to continue pact indefinitely. More than 170 nations agreed today to extend in perpetuity,

a treaty that has limited the spread of nuclear arms for a quarter of a century. The treaty on the non-proliferation of nuclear arms for a quarter of a century. weapons, a bedrock agreement in Soviet-American relations that arose in the midst of the Cold War became permanent today by acclamation. The original treaty, which went into effect in 1970, had to be reviewed this year to decide whether it should be extended for a set period, ended or prolonged indefinitely. The treaty basically limits nuclear weapons to the five states that proclaim them at the time. The United States, Britain, France, China, the Soviet Union, now Russia. All other signifiers, all other signers had to

to promise not to acquire them. Today's announcement followed four weeks of sometimes bitter debate between those five declared nuclear powers, all of whom favored indefinite extension and nations without nuclear arms, many of which were just emerging from colonialism when the treaty was written and were hesitant to see it extended in its present form indefinitely. Now, I would just like to point out that those five official nations are not the only countries with nuclear weapons. Of course, Pakistan and India now have nuclear arms. North Korea has something. going on over there, and we're all pretty sure that Israel has nuclear weapons, but it adopts a policy of strategic ambiguity. At one time, South Africa had a nuclear program. They've dismantled

it. And it's considered that a lot of developed states, Germany, Japan could develop a nuclear weapon very quickly if they decided to because of nuclear reactors and just the high degree of their industrial and technical development. Nothing about making a nuclear weapon as complicated anymore. It's really just a matter of getting your hands on the right materials. You need enough uranium or plutonium or what have you.

Nuclear proliferation, as we've talked about many times, is a big issue still and is a big issue in the movies who watch, fears of it. This movie is not exactly proliferation, but it's about a political crisis within a nuclear power, which is something that is unfortunately kind of conceivable. And here's the other thing I thought was interesting. Suspect hoarded bomb materials affidavit implies months of preparation.

Records show Nichols began buying volatile fertilizer as early as last fall. An FBI affidavit released today suggested that planning for the bombing of the Oklahoma City Federal Building began as far back as September 1994 when Teriel Nichols began buying thousands of pounds of ammonium nitrate fertilizer and rented the first of several storage sheds in small towns in Kansas. Mr. Nichols was accused of accumulating just two tons of ammonium nitrate and just a few days before the April 19th bombing, purchasing an unspecified quantity of diesel fuel, another major ingredient in the bomb. The affidated intent to show a judge that sufficient ground existed to charge Mr. Nichols

with the bombing provided the first detailed look at the government's case, which appear to be built on a chronological chain of circumstantial evidence, implicating the evidence. and plot both Mr. Nichols and Timothy J. McVeigh, the other man charged in the bombing. As you may know, the Oklahoma City bombing, I think, was the worst terrorist attacking in the United States history before September 11th. It was carried out by Timothy McVeigh with Nichols as his accomplice. Timothy McVeigh was a subscriber to various extreme right conspiracy theories. He came in touch with the kind of Nazi Christian identity. movement. He was in touch with also survivalist groups. And he was an admirer of the Turner

Diaries, a kind of neo-Nazi novel that imagines a race war in the United States. And yeah, this was, you know, the Oklahoma City bombing was a sign of the willingness of the extreme right to carry out political violence to try to advance its program. Of course, McVeigh claimed to have been radicalized by witnessing the siege of Waco by the federal government, which ended in disaster. So, yeah, I thought that's just, you know, we're still living through in certain ways the world created by both of these things. Anything else here looks interesting to you, Jamel, or Tony?

No, nothing looks interesting to me. I think it's a point well taken how these two events are very much shaped the world that we that we live in. In the case of McVeigh, the thing that was not so much in circulation during immediate aftermath, but it's very much, I think, established now is, as you mentioned, the connections to far-right groups, the connections to the militia movement, to various sort of white nationalist, white supremacist groups, sort of, there's a whole kind of world of these people, these groups, and McVeigh very much comes out of them. And they are still very much around, as we are aware. Listeners may know that I live in Charlottesville, Virginia. So this is

a thing that we've had experience with here and are still, you know, willing to use violence, although not on the scale that we saw in 1995. That does remain and will hopefully remain a singular kind of attack. I think those guys are just so crawling with FBI agents at this point. It would be very difficult for them to get anything like that going. Yeah. Any thoughts, Tony? What was Timothy McVeigh's military service? He was a Gulf War. Gulf War. He was a Gulf War veteran. Yeah. Yeah. And was very disillusioned in the aftermath. Chain of command. So I think that is a good segue to Crimson Tide. As I mentioned, Crimson Tide 1995, Drix, by Tony Scott.

Have we done a Tony Scott movie, John? I don't think so. Not that I were going to recall. How did you miss that? Even if you throw a dartboard, you'd have, you'd have a... Yeah, I don't know. I don't know. Maybe there was just too many of them for me to remember.

No, I don't know if we've done either Tony or Ridley. I guess because we didn't start in the 80s. Like, obviously we had started me 80s who would have done Top Gun. Right. And I can't think of a Tony and like another 90s Tony is Tony Scott movie that is in this sort of like... military and political milieu. Well, he's going to get to enemy of the state.

He'll do that. Right. Yes, well, he'll get the enemy of the state, yeah, which I'm really looking forward to. That is a movie that is weirdly, like I saw that when I was a kid, basically, with my dad. And so I have a lot of fond memories about that movie. I worked on that film. I worked on that film. And that's right.

All my experience with Tony Scott is from that film. So I worked on that film with him, yeah. So let's, in that case, let's start with just sort of, Tony, What do you know about the production of this movie? I don't know a ton about kind of like the background for this film. It doesn't think it could be based on the novel, the screenplay or anything. It seems like a real original. So what do you know?

This is still, this is still Simpson, Bruckheimer. So Don Simpson's still alive. I never worked for, my brother worked. I took meetings there. I met Don Simpson. I met the two of them when they were at Paramount. Then they go to Disney. and this has started their Hollywood Pictures deal.

So they make Top Gun and they start a, they start a business, really. They start an ethos of taking huge institutions. I mean, they'll do NASCAR, right? They'll do Days of Thunder with NASCAR. They'll do Armageddon with NASA, Con Air. They'll do all these things. You take these big institutions and they put movies in there. I think they probably had the idea for submarines.

I think it's an original screenplay. They had a screenwriter, Michael Schiffer. and I can't remember the expert novelist that they had. But I think they started off and they had naval cooperation. And they went out and they had the Navy cooperating with them. And they got a drive-by on a sub, which is kind of an amazing. Must have been an amazing experience. I don't know if you want to be on a –

I don't know. Could you stand being on a submarine? I don't think I could take it. I could do it. You could do it? I'm prepared to go. It's a very – I think it was a very complicated psychological test for submarine. I've always loved submarines and people think I'm crazy since I was a little boy and people think

I'm crazy and that it's a death trap and a coffin but it doesn't bother me all right I mean at least I don't know Jamal are you going you're going to go climb down and seal it off I mean I've never I've never been on I think I would my parents both at various points served on aircraft carriers which is obviously very different but I have I have I have rel and I've been on I've been on aircraft carriers I've been on Navy Destroyed I mean I've been on a couple different ships and I feel like I wouldn't freak out too much on a submarine. I have a cousin who was a submariner, and he's perfectly well-adjusted for what it's worth. Yeah, but you have to be, you got to be, I think they put you through it incredible.

And plus, they also must have incredible human resources algorithms, I mean, pre-alororithms. They must have all kinds of adaptive data points on how to match people together and put them on the subs. It was very, because they go down, and the nuclear subs go down, and they disappear for months at a time. I don't know. If I had been the writer on this film, I've been on a lot of ride-alongs. I would have been shamed into going on this ride-along. I would not have raised my hand and said, no, I'm afraid, but I would have been hoping that it was really short. And so they went on the ride-along, I think, and they did this, and they found out all the stuff, and they, I think, they fell in love with the procedure and the visual and the attitude of it.

And I think that they started, what I read online, they started with an idea that was going to be a sort of an AI kind of idea. The computer takes over. And it was a, it was a, and the Navy let them on under those circumstances. I think they got on there and said, this is a lot more interesting if it's a mutiny and if it's a interpersonal thing. And once the Navy smelled mutiny, they pulled all their support. And that's why you have Richard Valeriani at the beginning of the film on the French naval destroyer. I don't think they got any cooperation from the Navy. after that whatsoever.

And I think the casting went through a lot of different things. I saw they wanted Al Pacino and Warren Beatty. What an interesting choice. Warren Beatty and the Ramsey part. But they ended up with their, I think they ended up with their best possible choice in Gene Hackman. And I don't know.

I mean, I'm not sure if Denzel was, I'm not sure if there was a racial component to this in the very beginning when they cast it or if they turn to that, there doesn't seem to be anything about that. It's easy to imagine Tom Cruise on this part, or it's easy to imagine Brad Pitt or somebody, you know, there's a bunch of people in that part. And a lot of writers, Jared, it's Brockheimer,

a lot of writers. So I'm sure if you saw the title page on the Writers Guild Arbitration, you'd be shocked at how many names are on there. And you would never really know who, the only people who really know are the people who were really there. So a lot of times you can't really tell what happened. I know everybody, Quentin Tarantino came in. And there's a couple flashy moments that are very,

they have that new car, Tarantino smell about them. You can tell where they are. Well, so my, my, I knew, like, John, I mentioned to me over text before yesterday, the Tarantino worked on this. And my immediate thought what watched the scene last night was at the scene on the bus with Gandalfini and the young black seaman. That screen, that whole thing screams, Terran. Tarantino to me.

Exactly. Pop culture reference in the movie was Tarantino's edition, the Star Trek references, the Silver Surfer references. Right. I think that Tarantino. And I read that Tarantino was added to add a little bit of the tinge of racism to some of the script. And Washington actually gave him a hard time because of previous movies and his liberal use of the N-word. But apparently many years later, they buried the hatchet over it. But I think that that was maybe they wanted to add to the kind of subtly or not so subtly

race-baity comments that Gene Hackman makes. And I think that Tarantino may have played a part in adding those to the script. That's what I understood at least. Well, he had worked with him on True Romance. So he came off an experience with him, which was very successful. And he was, man, he was, you know, he was red hot at that moment. And Simpson-Brock number Jerry's always been. they throw everything at a movie that they can throw at it to get it working for them.

And if that means a bunch of writers and that means a bunch of, they don't care. They go at it. It's a very unnerotic, very, very, very, very Darwinian process. So I don't know. Maybe after they had the, it would be hard, I don't know, that's a complicated question. It'd be hard to suddenly say, okay, we're going to all of a sudden it is Denzel. Tom Cruise, it would be hard to not introduce some subtext of race into it. So maybe they went to, you know, maybe they went to Quentin, you know, to try to fill those moments or try to figure

out what to do about that. I'm not really sure. I don't think the movie works would work. I mean, the movie, I think this is an extraordinarily good movie. I don't know if it's, I've just, I've tweeted before this, what's better, Crimson Titer, Hunt for Ractober, and this was driving people wild. But I don't know if it's better than Hunt for Rectober, but I think this is this as like, you know, one of a sort of like kind of up there with what Hollywood is able to accomplish. And I don't think that the movie would be, have as much interesting tension or drama or have a political kind of subtext it does without the fact that it's Denzel Washington and Gene Hackman. I think that, you know, you could have a pretty good submarine thriller,

but without the racial tension in the movie, it's not as good of a movie. It's not as interesting of a movie. I think that really is kind of weird. It doesn't make the movie, but it certainly makes it a stronger movie than it would be otherwise. We've talked about this before. Not long ago we did the episode of The Enemy Within the remake of Seven Days in May with Forrest Whitaker. And one thing we discussed in that how this particular period in sort of the U.S. military history is this period where it's, I mean, integration has long happened, right?

Like there's been integration throughout the regs. But like the 90s really is when you're seeing kind of like a real way. of especially black officers and NCOs make their way into, right, into their positions to prominence in a way that wasn't necessarily the case in the 80s and wasn't the case in the 70s, right? And so there is this sort of like within the military in the 90s is kind of like culture, not culture class, but sort of like an integrated command structure, integrated in terms of racial integration.

is somewhat still kind of novel. And I think this movie very much, like, is keyed into that. Gene Hackman's character sort of, like, makes note of this. It's sort of, like, he, in addition to being white, he represents his sort of older idea of what an officer is. And Denzel is this younger, much more cerebral, what's like he knows why he's supposed to push the button rather than just knowing to push the button. And this also is sort of, like, a source of, like, of tension.

It's sort of like, and I think it's interesting to think about the racial dynamic and the sort of like one's intellectual and one's not at least like openly or like, you know, not on a sleeve intellectual. Because black actors and certainly like not Denzel, it's not really cast as like an intellectual type. And that's also sort of my thinking like an interesting and interesting subtext. For sure. And I think that that is the liberalism. the particular kind of liberalism of this movie, which I think is an appealing one. You know, I joked before that Jack Ryan kind of sets the stage, prepares the country for the presidency of George W. Bush, right? So he's just like kind of decent guy who's like ostensibly

decent guy. I think that like this movie, weirdly enough, is a precursor of Obama liberalism where it's like you have a black intellectual liberal. Obviously, there's a, a political subtext, too, that on top of being an intellectual, it's highly suggested that he's kind of a liberal, right? And that Denzel Washington's character is kind of a liberal. Black intellectual, liberal, and then you have this kind of old, white, Republican guy. And the movie, you know, suggests that the tension between these people would be explosive. and yet it holds out the kind of not as naively as perhaps the West Wing or any other kind of Aaron Sorkin thing, but it kind of holds out this promise of mutual respect and cooperation

ultimately, right, that these people can see fine qualities in each other, even if, you know, there is a racial attention and they have very different views of the direction of the country. The country is this nuclear missile submarine. So I just thought of this movie as like as proto-Oaboma liberalism in a certain way and a hope that the old guard could be kind of reconciled to it. And, you know, they might put up a fight. They might have their own views, but they're kind of ultimately honorable people. And they will come around when they see the real virtue of, you know, and the real leadership qualities of, you know, this new, this new form of leadership. that's my that's my political uh reading of the movie and it's amazing to me that you know how

worlds away this is from in terms of its politics in terms of you know the issues it brings up from top gun you know which is a movie also um that takes place in the navy and this movie is just much deeper and scarier and actually has kind of you know they're they're a little bit um you know you know, dramatic and what you expect from a holiday movie, but the discussions are actually kind of interesting. I mean, like, the, the, and the problems, the moral and political problems the movie brings up are interesting, and on top of it just being like a wonderfully fun action movie. Those are just some of my thoughts watching. I'll follow your point. I don't think this is a groundbreaking movie. Like, there's movies, I'll mention two other

movies that I think are really groundbreaking. One is a submarine movie and one isn't. But I think this is a confirming film. This is a film that's supposed to confirm that everything is okay. And this is a film that confirms. And really, I mean, this is sort of a black excellence confirmation. I do think there's an Obama link. I think that's true. In terms of being groundbreaking, I'll make two things. One is that if you go to another submarine movie, The Hunt for Red October, I did go back and watch it as part of this. I was blown away by how amazing it was. This is a very good film, Crimson Tide,

but Hunt for Red October is on a different level of movie making. I was blown away by John McTierrez. I'd seen it when it came out. I was really, I was very pleasantly surprised to watch it. That's a groundbreaking movie. That's saying, hey, the Soviet Union is over. Right. Really?

That's like a whole new idea. This is an idea that's telling you, hey, you know what? This is happening and this is cool and it's going to be okay. but about two months or two months ago a movie came on and it was about 10 minutes in i've seen the movie 50 times can't not watch it when it's on in the heat of the night was on and like i meant the parallels between in the heat of the night and this movie and now in the heat of the night is a major groundbreaking film that's a movie that's i mean that that's a that's a seismic i mean i'm young but i'm politically conscious at that point that that was that just rocked

everything that movie was just so shocking and cool and fantastic but you know so i went on i actually went online i'm like wow this these movies there's so many things in here and there's some guy on there who actually compares the slaps you know i don't if you remember but in heat of the night uh sidney potier goes back and rottstocks takes him back to the bad guy's place the guy's growing orchids and he challenges the guy and the southern plantation guy and he turns around and slaps him. And Siddi Puente slaps him back. And Rod Stegger doesn't do anything. And it's just this disruptive thing. So then you have this slap in this. I mean, at the end of the film, Hackman just, I mean, he wails on Denzel at the end. He gives him two really hard punches.

And Denzel just stands there and doesn't do anything. He just freaking lets it go. And Hackman loses by by the the the the by by Denzel just staring him down he loses more than anything and uh

and I think this film really is telling everybody and that's what you know Top Gunn's a recruiting poster right? I mean Top Gun is really this movie is basically saying hey man this is here this is cool this is okay this is how we should think about it this is how it's going to be

um isn't it cool. And at the end, my God, at the end, Agman does everything would throw his arms around him at the end, doesn't he? It's kind of, um, it's a very, very happy, happy sugary ending. Yeah, he, he, he, he, they,

they mutually recognize each other, you know, to use some theory language. It's like, I, I see, I see that you're a valid in human being deserving of respect and you, you're still a valid human being deserving of respect. This is the way we think we work things out in a democracy, the Navy

will appropriately deal with this. It's not a tragedy. Like there's the beginnings of a tragedy, which is that you have two figures whose ideas about their duty are radically opposed. And they both want to hold on to their idea of duty and these ideas of duties combined and create an explosion with a tragic ending. You know, a tragic hero just insists that they have some, you know, duty that they can't give up on and they've come into contact with some other intractable force. It doesn't have

a tragic ending. It implies that there doesn't have to be a tragedy that, and the nuclear war doesn't happen, which would be the real tragic ending. There doesn't have to be a tragedy. These are fundamentally situations that can be worked out through kind of the American ingenuity in all kinds of different ways. But I'm going to slightly disagree with you. I think that they have a common religion. I think that's what the movie's saying that's why this is confirming the cut the religion is chain of command i mean and process and and the religion of that and they both they both are fundamentalists when it comes to that and that's why the movies in a way is like uh uh it needs it's safe in that way and confirming

because denzil is much of a believer it's it's uh it's the hackman character who has this sort of, I mean, they're kind of saying, hey, man, he's got a little bit of this Ahab. You know, there's a little bit of Ahab going on in here. And I never got a chance to shoot my rocket. So maybe I'm getting down to the last few trips and I never got to do anything. And my wife left me. All I got is my dog. And I got orders.

And it's the, it's, who's failed the religion? Who's the, who's the apostate here is really what they try to get to at the end? So I think they, I think there is a. incredible this movie's trying to say the commonality that all blood you know what do they say all blood is uh you know uh you know you're a cop all blood is blue right and it's like you know all they're supposed to believe they're praying at the same altar um it's just one is you know and and what do you have in denzil you have this tucked away stoic resistance to trim i have to be immaculate i have to be better i have to be perfect they cannot see me sweat

cannot see me react. That is a foreshadowing of Obama for sure. Yeah, I think that what your point about religion is interesting, because I think the subtext is like, okay, there's Navy rules and regulations, but the subtext is American civic religion, which is like constitutionalism, right? And this points to, well, we can have different opinions about the Constitution, but ultimately there are procedures to work out these different problems and our mutual respect for the institution writ large will see us through. But they don't have to believe in democracy. They have a...

No. They have to believe in this other thing. They have to believe in this chain of command, and it's just... I mean, you get the orders and you got to... I mean, it only works one way. And it doesn't matter how progressive... I mean, in the end, you finally have to go,

well, this is the only way this machine will operate. If you want to have a machine that does... Those chain of command is a... It's a very serious thing. And that's their religion. Yeah. I want to go back to your comparison to in the heat of the night because I've just been thinking about it and how much the movies are kind of like very similar structurally. And within the heat of the night, it is that is also very much movie, not just about sort of like, you know, Sidney Poitiers is the Tibbs's character, Tibbs, his willingness to sort of violate Southern taboos to sort of like demonstrate it.

No, he is not going to be subordinate to the white elites of the South. out, but it also is, it also has this sort of legitimation element to it too, right? Sort of like there's just worry that this new class of young, um, black leaders or professionals are not going to be up to snuff or not going to be really able to do the job. And Poitie's character, among other things, it's just like highly competent. It's like ultra competent. Oh, he's smarter than everybody in the movie. That's why it's groundbreaking.

It's like, he's just, I mean, oh, my God, when Ross Steyer finds out how much he makes as a detective in Philadelphia, he's like, oh my God, everything about him is, there is a moment in the movie. I can't remember what it is. I haven't watched it again. I should have watched it again, but he, there is a movie where they do scuff him up just a little bit. I can't remember where it is. But in general, he's just absolutely superior to every single, every single other organic piece of carbon-based material that he meets in that movie. There isn't anybody that's up. It's up to his level. That's why it's so groundbreaking, and that's why. But Steiger, think of how great Rod Steiger would have been as Ramsey, right? Yeah, absolutely. And if you made the movie now, right? So if you make the movie now, what's the confirming movie you make now? It's Denzel's the captain, and who is it?

Aquafina is the XO. That's the movie, you know? Yeah. That's the movie now. That tells us everything is okay in a new way. They're not the same because in the heat of the night is a bomb. It's just a bomb. And this is more of a, this is more of a valium in a way.

Everything's cool. It's going to be okay. No, I think that's right. I think that's right. It's the, so it's like not only there's like the surface level in the moment of crisis, the United States and military is still more than able to handle itself. Even with these sorts of divisions, no one, things don't go wrong because, you know, things don't go wrong because people mess up, right? People are messing up. Things go wrong because they have

differing opinions about what to do. No, because you, because the winch breaks. Yeah, exactly. It's like a technical problem. And because that guy, Lilo, Brancato can't fix that radio, which looks like it came from like, you know, it looks like a French resistance radio down there that it's for, you know, it's the, I have to say from a writer's point of view, it's the most like, the most number of meters and countdowns. It's, it's got. about as many countdowns as you could put in a movie and not get caught where someone just you know I'm sure there's a drinking game about the countdowns in this movie do you think that's just because I think you I feel like you can get away with a lot of that when you're in a submarine

in the movie that like the confined spaces the fact that like all the technical stuff is kind of like opaque like no one no one really knows what any of this does they're at the limit they're right at the they do a very good job of explaining they tell you what you need to know But they just keep going back to that well over and over and over again. I mean, it's what they have. They don't, look, they don't have any women. They don't have anywhere to go. I watched a couple.

I watched Run Silent, Run Deep, which my godfather wrote, John Gay wrote. So I hadn't seen it a long time. So it was a good opportunity to watch that. And I watched October and looked at a couple of, what's really cool from a point of view as a writer is you don't have, no one can go anywhere. Like, there's no travel time to talk to anybody. but that also means there's no time to get away so anything that happens has to be immediate you know it all has to happen

now it always has to be that way and that just lead I think if they had one more one more torpedo countdown you'd you'd be calling them on it the fact that the cast for this is entirely male about October entirely male like I can't I can't think I just watched this French

submarine movie a couple months ago everyone was called oh uh wolf's call or something like yeah well wolf's call yeah which i like but also entirely male it's it's it is like the submarine as like a space in film does feel like this place where writers if they're thinking about it even though not and kind of i think it kind of just comes out of performance right that like a place where you can kind of think about like competing ways of being a man, like competing masculinity in different kinds of masculinities.

You see some of this, besides Denzel and Gene Akman, you see some of this in the movie. You have kind of James Gandalfini's like bully. It's like an impressive bully.

Beagle Morgensen's like much more soft spoken and kind of like you know, just want to get along and kind of like beep, beep part of the team um more something more passive masculinity but there's like there's a but there's there is within this like an opportunity for thinking through you know how do different kinds of men um how do they respond to kind of acute pressure i'm gonna double down on my theory here now now that this is like a field because they because they're also saying oh my god all the

the people that you think, like, you think the other black guy is going to line up with Denzel. He doesn't. You think George Zunz is going to line up with Gene Hackman and he goes against Hackman, his guy. Like, Vigo, you think, oh, my God, he's at the birthday party with Denzel the beginning. He's, my God, Vigo, we know he's a, he's a, you know, we know him and he's a young guy. He goes against Denzel ultimately. I mean, the way they divvy it up, they're kind of going, you know what? We're also going to be okay. It's really going to be, it's going to be a rainbow village in the Navy because you really can't tell who's going to who's going to be with who. It's another, it's another, it's another, it's another, it's another, it's another very sweet way

of wrapping this, this wholesome, this wholesome issue up, I think. And I think that that's, that's the, the liberal political metaphor going on here, too, is that it's a, politics are about genuine differences opinion right and people can come to those difference of opinion from all kinds of identities and backgrounds and and they're disinterested on some level it's not just your identity it's not just where you grew up that's i mean those things are are there but it you know like oh isn't it surprising that this person holds this opinion and that person holds that opinion and we know in practice that you know people's concrete life experience and identities are are far more determine of their politics than just like, oh, well, I have this abstract difference of opinion.

But this movie is essentially about a difference of opinion about a, it's a principled. They're both principled. They have a different interpretation of the text, you know, and they're, they're insistent that they have to follow the letter of the law, the chain of command, properly. And what the proper thing is is not clear. And that's the, and that's the very. Who are the losers? Who are the losers, right? The loser is, Gandalfini's a loser. loser because he's just like, he's just going to go with the boss. He's, I'm going with the boss. I'm going with the captain.

I'm going with, you know, I don't know, no, no, no. And the winner is George Zunza, who's like, I hate you. What does he say? He says, fuck you to Denzel when he tries to apologize to say thank you. Right. He says, fuck you. He goes, I only did this because it's a chain of command. I still worship.

I am, I am, I am, I am, I am, I am worshiping the idea. I'm not going. So the losers are the people who go with the tribal feelings, not the, not the, not the system. I wonder if the Navy at the end, whoever put a red line through this and said, we're not going to cooperate with this picture. At the end, and they saw it and they saw Jason Robards at the end and everything's, I wonder if they were kind of like, oh, this is all right. This kind of works for us. I dig it. It might have been happier than they thought at the end. Yeah, I know. They don't want a mutiny to show on a show, but it's kind of like, yeah, yeah.

No, I think you're right. I think you're, I think that's an extremely smart. point about who ends up you know i think that you know the captain does try to appeal in his like political attempt to take over he tries to appeal to the loyalties of his man yeah yeah and the long saying he's like you've been with me forever uh and oh you of all people he says to george zunza but but that you know but what what danzel has on his side is the constitution so to speak he has the rule of law and he's following the procedure correctly right we don't have the full message we can get it yeah we're redundant right what the fuck let's get it and i think i think it the only thing that doesn't quite work in the movie and i think you know getting into what you're you were saying

earlier and as it not being so groundbreaking kind of is that ultimately what what jean hackman's doing is a little crazy it's kind of you pointed at the ahab thing it's kind of crazy like he it's not just oh well it makes perfect sense that he would try to fall the procedure right like it's kind of it's a it's a decision of such gravity that you're like that's a crazy person who would decide just to be like I'm launching the missiles I don't care that's where it gets into like you know like that's not where it's like oh he's just doing his duty you're like that is beyond duty that's something kind of pathological right well they're also saying he doesn't have anything to live for you know that you know you start off in a birthday party with a bunch of people with

their kids and saying goodbye to your son and whatever. And then you find out this guy's got a dog that's with him and his wife left him and he's got nothing but this. And it's kind of like, well, who's going to be more eager for the end of the world? You know, who's going to be, who's going to play that card? Yeah, a little bit of generational politics there. A little bit. A little bit.

Yeah. Yeah. Do we have any final thoughts on Crimpton Tide before we move on to, kind of wrap up, kind of asking Tony questions about other things. No, I think it's better. Tony's right.

Hunter October is better. No, I was really surprised how. I mean, where is so this is Yeltsin Clinton. This is kind of like the Wagner group, isn't it? This guy Radichenko is kind of like progosian in a way, right? Yeah. Yeah.

The politics are plausible. But the interesting thing is, like, the imagined crisis is an ultra-right-wing nationalist faction trying to take control, but sort of as things actually unfolded, like, this isn't, you know, it's just sort of like the right-wing nationalist just, like, became the state, right? Like, they, whatever political argument there was about Russia's future, they won it. Yeah. I mean, there are people, I think that the real, I think what's plausible about the story, the political story this tells is there are people to Putin's right, who are unhappy with, and who would probably have liked to see in the context of Western sanctions and support of Ukraine, nuclear exchange. And, and we've seen, as, as, as Tony pointed out, with progosian, like some of those kind of right forces on the right of Putin. you know, have some reason to believe they might be successful in a, in some kind of

uprising against him. So I think the movie actually has in terms of its political scenario has aged really well. And, uh, probably looks more convincing in that respect today than it did when it came out. Although there was some scary shit happened in the 90s with far right in Russia too, but, but I think that that part of the movie kind of looks pretty good still. I'll say, I don't ever compare this movie in Humphrod October. I kind of think of them as like very different kinds of movies. Like, I don't know. I don't, for me, it's not like which one's better.

They both satisfy like very different things I want out of a submarine movie. Crimson Tide, much more straightforward, sort of like action thriller, Hunter Red October, a little more, a little more, you know, cerebral and political, like explicitly so. Okay. Well, normally for wrap up, uh, We go through the mailbox and read some letter feedback, but I thought it would be fun just as sort of, since we have Tony here, to ask, if, John, if you have any questions for Tony, I kind of want to ask about some of your recent work, just because I'm a little curious about what your inspiration was. And in particular, I think I told me this.

I'm like a very big fan of Andork, not just because of long-time Star Wars fame, but because I think it's actually, I thought when I watched it, I thought this was a very sophisticated story of how like a person develops like genuine revolutionary attitudes and like genuine revolutionary sentiments. And how these things like actually work in practice. And I was sort of curious, I wanted to ask, like when you were when you were, when you were. doing research for Ander, like, were you reading, were you, uh, visiting or revisiting history about like European revolutions? Because the thing feels like it's, it has a lot of that and its DNA. I mean, that has been a lifetime study. I mean, I've been, it's just everything. I mean, I'm not a, I'm not even, I'm not a college graduate, but I'm a big auto-didact and I've been

eating all that stuff up for, I've probably done in my life. I'd probably, you know, you go through phases where you can only take the Beatles for, you know, for the 25th time, but you'll go in a couple months every couple years. And the French Revolution, I think I've done a deep dive on the French revolution about four or five times in my life, the Russian Revolution I've been obsessed with, and the house on the embankment and all of the, all the lead-up. And, you know, just revolutions in general, they're all different and they're all the same. But it's just they're always. But I've never had a chance to write about that. I never had a chance to, you're always trying to find a movie. You're always trying to find a moment. You're trying to find an incident on a

submarine. You're trying to find one thing that happens that you can make big. That's my, I was trying to take something small and make it big. This was a chance to take, oh my God, we started small and we go that way, but I can talk about everything. And we're finishing up the second half of it now. So we did, we did 12 episodes the first time we're doing another 12 now to finish It's sort of a novel in a way. So we're finishing it now, and so the whole thing's done, story-wise, that's for sure. It's all locked up. And we now get the opportunity to add time to the story.

So it's the first season took place over a better part of a year. The second season, second half will take place over the next four years. And it's the effect of time and organization on revolution. and what happens to the original gangsters and the theoreticians and the original terrorists? And what happens to the original people versus when revolution becomes established? What happens to all the hierarchies within there? How do you scale up secrecy? How do you scale up paranoia?

If you only have a few people and how does it get big and what are the vulnerabilities of that? And so it's been the biggest, it's been the most amazing, I mean, I mean, it will, this ultimately be my, this will be my life's, this will be my crowning achievement, for sure. I mean, I may do some other things after this, and I certainly did some things before, but I will never have had a canvas and a material like this. And I can't get, I can't get punished or criticized or boxed in or, or ghettoized by current events. I can deal with anything I want with complete, and I can cherry pick anything throughout history that I want to pick and deal with. It's really been a very exciting storytelling experience. So, I mean,

we're really trying to, you know, we're going to really try to deliver the check that we banked last season and try to get it, try to really make it pay off in the biggest way possible. You mentioned earlier the French resistance, and that was another reference, historical reference like I could see throughout and, or is that a particular interest of yours as well? Absolutely. And actually, I mean, and also, and also. And also. And, and also. There's so many revolutions. I mean, my God, there's a great podcast that was the history of revolutions. It's a really great podcast. And I've listened to all of that. But before I did the show, and I think it's pre-COVID. My wife and I got involved in a show called The French Village, which is an obscure French television show that goes place over seven years. And it starts off very inexpensively. It's a very cheap and cheesy, the first season. They don't have any money. But it takes place in a small town near the Vichy border. that basically on the day that the Nazis come in and take over, and then it follows to the next seven years of what happens.

And we just got addicted to this show. And what was great is that every week, every episode, there's all these incredible decisions that people have to make. And it's not like you're on some freaking soap opera where you're manufacturing melodramatic decisions. These are legitimate day-to-day decisions that the prefect, that the mayor, that the doctor, that the local resistance leader, that the not, that everybody has to face.

And I was like, wow, man, you know, this is really, I got a lot out of that show. I really, from as a dramatist, I was like, wow, watching people make all these. So that's, that's a, yeah, I mean, but, man, Haitian revolution, English revolution, Roman revolution, man, name it. I mean, God, they're all just, every one of them is a, They're just packed. They're just packed with drama. So I've noticed in your films, I would hesitate to say, I mean, I don't think your films are politically didactic, but they usually have some kind of person who has to make, as you say, some kind of moral decision and is isolated in a systemic context that makes that decision a very difficult one and one that could actually.

hurt them, but then they kind of make a heroic choice, even if it's, you know, a relatively modest one or one that, you know, but would you say that you were like drawn to politics because of the, as a dramatist, as you said, or you would say that you were trying to, you know, deliver some kind of moral about how one should conduct themselves in these contexts where the institutions threaten to kill us morally and so on and so forth. I'm leery. You know, I've certainly had plenty of opportunities to navel gaze on my motivations of what I've done. And you go out and sell the movie and you find out what you were doing when you go out

and sell the movie. I think that I honestly think that I'm much more, a much more, theological and morality-based than I am doctrinarily politically based. But I think that there's a hinge between the two. But I am fascinated and increasingly fascinated, and my fascination just never goes away with people. And this is what Clayton is literally all about. It's like, how do you, if you know something is wrong

and you know that it's really, really wrong, what is the moment where you decide to do it anyway? Right. Right. And I don't, I mean, and you could be, you know, a guy on a warehouse who's sending out a truck full of, you know, a truck full of exterminating bombs that you know is going to, they're, they're faulty and, you know, someone, children may die if they go off. You could be Lindsey Graham. I mean, it doesn't matter. Like, if you know something is really wrong and you do it, I'm fascinated by that decision. I'm just continually perplexed by it. I find infinite. value in thinking about it. Is that political? I don't know. It ultimately becomes political, doesn't it? Because it gets expressed politics.

And politics is how we express morality, ultimately, I suppose. But, yeah. That's really interesting. I mean, it's sort of like you're interested in when, well, the problem of evil kind of, right? You know. Well, no, in consciousness. Yeah. And what you really know.

And how can you have varying degrees of empathy? How can you have empathy? How can you tuck your kids in bed? Well, there's this movie out now that Jonathan Glazer movie. I can talk your kids in bed at night and just be with your kids and really have a legit feeling for them and look across the fence and realize that you're at Auschwitz. I mean, what the fuck do you do?

I mean, how do people do that stuff? And the conflict, the dissonance between what you know and feel and how you behave And I think we live in a world where the noise of that is just getting so loud, the noise of that dissonance between people, what people know is the right thing to do on what they do is so loud. It's never been louder in my lifetime. And it seems like a sound that should be going away. And it just gets, it just gets increasingly deafening. That's very interesting. I don't have any other questions.

John, how about yourself? No, no, not at all. I think that's, you know, we've taken up plenty of your time and it's been really fascinating. Yes. Thank you so much for your time, Tony. We really appreciate. We really appreciate that you've been able to make time for us to do this show and talk with us about this movie and about some of your work. All right. Well, make smart choices. Do the right thing. Makes more choices now. And I'm not going on the submarine. I've just decided. I don't want, I'm just, I'm too old now to go on a submarine. I would go on the aircraft carrier, but not the summer. Aircraft carriers are, I mean, they're, they're, that's cool.

That sounds cool. My parents were both in the military, for, they were both career military. And so they'd always be like family days or something. Right. On the ships. And so, when I was a kid, I went on them upodge. And the thing that I think is hard to communicate about an aircraft carrier is just how big they are, just how, like, absolutely massive they are.

It's like you're on this, like, small city. And it's, it is kind of wild experience. As a kid, that must be just insane. Yeah. Wow. Very loud. Yeah. All right.

That is our show. If you're not a subscriber, please subscribe. We're available in iTunes, Spotify, and Google Podcasts, and wherever else podcast are found. If you subscribe, please leave a rating and review so people can find in the show. You can reach out to us over email at unclear and present feedback at fastmail.com. our next episode in the new year it's the last episode the year's the next episode will be on executive decision

the I think 1986 action film starring Kurt Russell and unfortunately John starring Stephen Segal Oh can't win them all Can't win them all You'll be I mean this isn't really spoiling and I think people know this his movie is famous for this Steven Segal like dies in the first 15 minutes

Okay, sounds like my kind of movie. Okay. So we'll do executive decision, and our Patreon, our most recent Patreon episode is, what is our most recent Patreon episode? I just suddenly cannot remember. It's a secret honor. Robert Altman's Secret Honor. So if you have not subscribed to Patreon, please check out our Patreon on $5 a month, and we have an episode every other week on the Patreon. Secret Honor is the most recent one.

Before that, we have The Spook Who Sat by the Door, a movie I Really Like, an episode I think, is quite good. We also did Jay Edgar with the historian Beverly Gage, who is the author of a great book on Hoover. So we've done a lot of fun stuff at the Patreon next main feed episode in the new year, executive decision, and then we're off to the second half of the 90s. A lot of stuff that people, I think, have been requesting. We will get to this upcoming year, certainly enemy of the state, as Tony mentioned earlier

in the episode. Arlington Road is another one that's come up a lot in terms of requests. So a lot of the heavy hitters of this genre of the decade we'll get to in this next year. Until then, though, I'm Shemel Bui, and for John Gans and Tony Gilroy, this is unclear and present danger. Thank you for joining us. All right, keep the face. I'm going to be able to be.