Hidden Agenda
00:00Paul was not involved with terrorists.He was too smart to be manipulated.This man, Sullivan, was no run-of-the-mill person you could just blow away.He was an American lawyer with an international reputation.Am I wrong, or is it illegal to kill people and try to steal a country?Emdale Film Corporation presents Francis McDormandBrian Cox, Brad Durif.Hidden Agenda. Every government has one.
00:58in present danger, a podcastabout the political and military thrillersof the 1990s and what they sayabout the politics of that decade.I'm Jamel Bowie. I'm a columnist for the New YorkTimes opinion section.My name is John Gans. I write acolumn for Gawker, and I write the newsletter
01:14on popular front. And I'mworking on a book about American politicsin the early 90s.Today we are talkingabout the film HiddenAgenda, a1990, I'm sorry,1990 thriller out of the UK, starring, sorry, I need to pull up my little bit of information
01:36of who is in this movie, starring Brian Cox, Brad Durf, why can I, why did I just forget?Francis McDormann?Francis McDormon.I was like, why did I forget her?I just watched him Macbeth.My Zetterling, John Benfield, Jim Norton, and an actress from Game of Thrones, who I immediately recognize as Michelle Farley, as one of the journalists, the Irish journalist, who has kind of a bit part in the film.A quick little plot synopsis. Here, I'll say before I even start with this, that if you have not seen the movie, you should see the movie, because although we talked about the plot,and we talked about plot points, the topic of the discussion is more sort of things that we
02:27drew from the film.So you should see it first.I watched it on Tooby, which is one of those weird free services that you just have to watchcommercials and you get the thing for free.And I'm sure you can find it on iTunes or Amazon for rent.Plot synopsis.In Ireland, American lawyer, Ingrid Jester and her activist partner, Paul Sullivan,struggle to uncover atrocities committed by the British government against.
02:52against the Northern Irish during the troubles.But when Sullivan is assassinated in the streets,Jester teens up with Peter Kerrigan,a British investigator acting against the will of his own government,and struggles to uncover a conspiracythat may even implicate one of Kerrigan's colleagues.The film was not that successful,was pretty cheap,
03:18three million pounds, but didn't really make its money back.But my understanding is,is it was pretty well reviewed and well received from, by critics.Ebert gave it three stars.And the sort of the general assessment of this film 30 years after it was made is that it is a solid thriller of the period,kind of the exact kind of thing that is no longer made, but the kind of movie that this podcastcovers the low budgetlow to mid budget
03:54absolutely solidpolitical thrillerJohn what did you thinkwe were we wereoh go ahead sorryno let me let meredo thatJohn what do you think
04:07I like this movie a lotI think that this movieisa little bit more complicatedand reallythan some of the Hollywood films that we've watched.I think that it goes into like considerable detail about, you know, the conflict, the politicalactors in it, the way the, you know, it played itself out of the police forces in civil society.
04:42So you get to kind of get this realistic picture of what the troubles were like,more realistic picture of what the troubles were like than in movies like, you know, Patriot Games.and yeah I think that the script is excellent I think that Brian Cox and Francis McDormand are bothwonderful actors and you know Brian Cox gives a great performance and I think so doesso does McDormand so yeah I thought this is a really quality thriller movie and I really likethe level of detail and realism about the underlying conflict that's like it's kind ofbecomes the backdrop of the movie. But yeah, I mean, the beginning of the movie shows likean orange walk, like one of these Protestant sectarian parades that were, you know, that happened
05:34in Belfast and in Northern Ireland and kind of famous for being highly provocative andprovoking, you know, sectarian and violence. So yeah, no, I've seen, I actually seenthis movie once before, and I liked it even better the second time.The thing about Brian Cox in this movie, and I feel like Brian Cox and everything I've seenhim in is that he has this, I feel like his whole energy is kind of like, I am willing todo anything up to and including killing your entire family to do what I need to do.This sort of like, not like aggressive ruthlessness, but like quiet ruthlessness, like absolutewillingness to do it needs to be done.
06:22And it just makes, there's a scene in the film when he's confronting one of the Irish,you know, one of the British police paramilitary.I'm not really sure what the nature of that force was.Okay, those are the royal all-stercodestabular, which is the kind of paramilitary policeforce of Northern Ireland.Right.So he's confronting.him. And just that entire scene, it felt as if at, it felt as if at any moment Brian Cox
06:53was just going to like beat the shit of this guy. And that's sort of like, that's, that's theenergy Cox seems to have as an actor. I love it. I think it's great. And I found, I found himespecially just sort of super compelling every time he was on the screen. Also, Brad Duref,he was the American who's killedbut I love Brad Durf I think he's a fine actorand I was very happy to see himwith his sort of like you know shaggy hairyeah I don't know I haven't seen what else has he been in
07:27so the thing you know I now I kind ofhe's starting to look familiar he was the thingyou will recognize him from is Lord of the Ringsyeah he's he's greener worm tongue and Lord of the Ringsbut you'll see he pops up everywhere he'she's one of those actors whoIt's just always working.Yeah.
07:47Yeah, so should we look at the newspaper?We should look at the newspaper.As usual, we're going to look at the front page of the New York Times for the day this movie was released.That day is November 21st, 1990.That's a Wednesday.And so I have it pulled up right here.There is, funny enough, a Thatcher headline.and a Thatcher-related headline on the front page.
08:15It's in the top right, Thatcher unable to eliminate foe and party election.Second ballot set next week.Apparently, Margaret Thatcher faced a leadership battle for control of the,or leadership of the conservative party,and it wasn't exactly the case that she was going to win it.I don't actually have no idea how this.I think she lost.I think this was it for Maggie
08:44because she was not the head of the partyin the next election.She was replaced byJohn Majorshortly after thisthisoh, well that's really strange.Yeah, so she was replaced by John Major.
09:10you're not long after this um and uh she wasn't this that she i don't know if she stayed inparliament but she definitely wasn't leader of the party now just quickly quickly looking atthis it seems as if she her hostility to um uh the to the euro basically helped um helpeduh harm her position within the conservative party uh apparently i didAnd I noticed she had a very low approval rating throughout her prime ministership.So I'm sure I'm sure that did not help either, even as the conservative party, of course, did pretty well during her time.Her low approval rating and internal conflict will be the thing that prompts the leadership challenge.I feel like I say this every time we touch something that or tackle something that touch with UK politics.
10:09I just need to learn more about UK politics.I just don't.I don't care that much, but, yeah.It's very interesting because, I mean, and the movie kind of gets into it,is the, like, the post-war rise of the Labor Party.I mean, the shift, I mean, there was a huge shift in the United Statesbetween, you know, the kind of new, what we call the New Deal Order,and then the rise of Reagan, neoliberalism.
10:38But in some ways, the shift in Britain was even more dramatic because, you know, you had after the war a real kind of socialism in Britain, we had the National Health Service.You had lots of nationalization of industry as a consequence of the war and after the war.And the rollback of that under Thatcher was dramatic.and the you know we think of you knowBritain as a fairly conservative placeand the monarchywe don't think of it as akind of a socialist country
11:15but I mean the the prime ministershipssocialist prime ministershipsyou know contained real Marxistsand you know they were obviouslyconstrained by politics and became moderate in various waysbut you know they were serious about nationalizingparts of industry and serious about trying to you know create a socialist economy and thatcher'sprivatization like radically changed the economy and the political economy of the country and you know
11:43in ways that were super traumatic so my yeah I think and then you know the the conflict tonorthern island was also very interesting and complicated but yeah it's it I think the post-warBritish political history till that I meanNew labor is sort of kind of interesting, but like from the war to Thatcher, I think is reallyinteresting. I mean, there was lots of strikes, how the government managed that, and the processof decolonialization, which didn't really happen in Northern Ireland, is also reallyinteresting. So, yeah, I recommend British politics. I think they're kind of fascinating.I think that can be it for the front page of the Times.
12:36Let's talk about this movie.I feel like we've tackled the troubles before Patriot Games.I feel like another one of these movies involved in as well.But this, for as much as it has, you know, it takes place in Belfast,Belfast, it doesn't really deal with Irish politics, you know, for their own sake.It's much more about the UK and about this conspiracy theory that is sort of unraveledover the course of the film that the, you know, a cabal of conservative politicians andfinanciers and, you know, whoever got together to destabilize the labor government.
13:25of the late 70s and install Thatcher into power.That's sort of like, that's, that be, the, much of the, the, the plot is driven by the existenceof this tape that the, um, that Brad Derv's character was going to recover or already had.I already had him to meet, um, meet an IRA guy.Uh, and he was killed in the, you know, the paramilitaries took the tape.And so it's sort of a getting.this tape is kind of what is driving the action in the movie, and the tape contains the detailsof this conspiracy. But again, you know, Ireland ends up being more scenery than anything else.
14:10The movie is about the conspiracy. It's about the effort to unravel it. And it's, I mean,insofar that it's about Ireland, it's sort of, it's, it's, it's, it dramatizesthe sheer amount of like lawlessness that the British government um applied against uh you know againin Northern Ireland in its effort to pacify um the IRA yeah I mean so the the the you knowthe reason why the main characters are are in Northern Ireland is that they're working on kindof like a independent report about atrocities committed by the British security forcesAnd, like, you know, so they uncover torture.And then they're approached by this Republican.
15:02When I say a Republican now, listeners, I mean IRA.I don't mean Republicans like in America.But a Republican journalist who wants to talk to him about the shoot-to-kill policy,which was a policy that was, you know, alleged but did actually existfor security forces to not arrest suspected IRA members,but just to assassinate them.So, you know, there was a lot of cooperation between the,there's lots of different actors in the conflict.
15:35There's the British Army.There's loyalist paramilitaries,which are, you know, Protestant and Northern Irelandto remain part of the United Kingdom.There's Republican paramilitaries,which are largely Catholic and are nationalists in one Ireland,to reunite.There's the Royal Ulster Constabulary,
16:00which is a kind of militarized police forcelocated in Northern Ireland.And there was lots of cooperationbetween the Loyos paramilitariesand the security forcescommitting assassinations,reprisals against the Republicans.I think it's a good idea
16:20to just give a little bit background to the conflict.You know, the troubleThe conflict in Ireland is very old, but the troubles, you know, really took off in this, after the repression of what they call the civil rights campaign in the 60s, which was an effort by Catholic, Catholics in Northern Ireland to get certain social and civil rights, you know, an extremely poor population.There's lots of gerrymandering and efforts to dilute their votes.And, you know, they actually look to American civil rights movement as a inspiration or a, you know, as a model for their movement.And, you know, this was met with repression because there was, you know, accusations on the loyalist side that this was all.infiltrated by Republican groups and the IRA and, you know, to a certain degree there wascrossover, but this was an attempt to do a more peaceful and political process, and this
17:32turned into an armed kind of guerrilla conflict. And the process of trying to pacify it wasextremely violent. There was lots of bombings on all sides, and, you know, I think the movie'sreally great at showing the militarization of Belfast, like the barbed wire, the armored cars,these sort of fortified ghettos that the Catholics live in.You know, it was a really dire situation.And it was something that the British left, which, you know, this movie is a product of the British left.you know we saw corbin it was a very controversial you know in his capacity as anti-imperialistwas quite sympathetic um to the to the IRA which was obviously very controversial in
18:33britain because of their bombings and assassinations they tried to assassinate margaretthatcher so the british left especially the british far left always had sympathieswith the IRA but in general the British public you know was pretty aghast at the terrorismbut yeah that's just like a little background on the conflict itself it's interesting to just placethat in the context of decolonization globally right sort of like what I think of when I thinkof I guess the troubles is I think of the French attempt to hold on to Algeria right I thinkof the efforts that pacify Algeria, you know, the decade prior, prior to the beginning ofthe troubles. And so that's, I don't have any, like, conclusion there, but it's just sort of, I think
19:26I, my wife said this when we were watching this, when we're watching the film, I think thatAmericans, especially Americans who aren't Irish, have no Irish heritage, who are just sort oflike, you know, approaching this all very much as observers without any real.background knowledge don't normally think of the UK and Ireland in terms of that kind ofdynamic and it is interesting to watch a film that very much evokes you know the Battle ofAlgiers at part at parts I'll say also real quick one thing it also evokes and there's a scenewhere the Irish Republican journalist is sort of paramilitaries, British paramilitaries,you know, bang down her apartment door and take her from her home while her child's there.
20:26You know, that, that's like reminiscent of like an ordinary police raid in the United States.A police raid of, you know, maybe a public housing project or, you know, predominantly black,South Central L.A., right?Darrell Gates era,and it's just interesting,if you're going to take the lens ofthe U.K. as a colonial power in Ireland,which is the lens you ought to take,
20:57then comparing that use of violenceto how American police behavein probably black neighborhoods,I think actually offers some clarityon howon how at least the people in those neighborhoods perceive their position in the society.Yeah, absolutely.And I mean, I think that there's a lot of commonality in terms of the tactics used
21:24and also just the desperate poverty of those areas.I mean, this was just like, you know, the Catholic population was just systematically excluded from the society.And that was part of the beginning of the revolt.I mean, there is the nationalist aspect of the revolt of trying to, you know, reunite the country, but they're, you know, the, a lot of the, the, the, uh, the unhappiness and, uh, comes from just the, the sheer terrible economic prospects and, you know, lack of a future in this very bleak environment.So yeah, I mean, I thought of that too when I was watching the film and I was like, yeah, you know, like, the policing tactics.of this are military and it's a terror a conflict with terrorists but i'm like you know this isnot completely unlike you know american history or the use of um you know militarized policeand in recent history right no not raids that kind of thing yeah exactly uh yeah um and it's
22:31exacerbated by you know it's not exactly racial but the hatred um you know the sectarian hatred isreally quite powerful and you know a real it was a real divide like you know they were justCatholic and Protestant two different societies living side by side that you know we're notintegrated and had a lot of hatred and and fear of each other but yeah I think that parallelmakes a lot of sense I also thought about South Africa when I was watching you know with likeyou know apartheid South Africawatching this, you know, with all those kind of like armored cars patrolling the streets and so on and so.The hatred isn't racial, but I do think it's worth saying that there is an argument that has been made,
23:21and I think it's more or less on target, that the English colonialism, English prejudice towardsthe Irish sort of like that, that dynamic is part of the constellation of currents in European historythat, like, influenced the idea of race.It helped create the idea of race.Cedric Robinson in black Marxism calls it European racialism.Not quite the racism that we would recognize in the United States or that you would recognize in South America, the Caribbean,but kind of one of the antecedents of that sort of clad, that, that, that, uh,antithes of that ideology and of that system of,
24:08domination. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, the, uh, the history of British subjugation of Irelandwas like near genocidal, which, you know, I don't think you need to be a, a raving Irishnationalist to come to that conclusion. The complicating thing is, is that the residents of thenorth the protestant residents of the north have been there for quite some time it is not um likethe pinaire in in in um in uh in algeria who had been there for you know just over a hundred years or soum you know the the the roots are longer lasting so the claims of the over the territory are quiteyou know fraught because of that um so yeah i mean the i think that the moviesdealing with the detail and the of the conflict and showing the violence showing i think
25:18just showing yeah as i'd say like the the urban landscape and how you know the conflict sort ofscarred it and i think also like there's one scene where that i really like in the movie wherethey go to a Republican club in some poor area of Belfast and they meet because they're trying tothe IRA has this tape that has the secret conspiracy on it and the IRA got it because thisBritish defector who got fed up of being part of these like sciop and death squad groups gave it tothem so they go to this Republican club which is like a bar in this you know run down area ofBelfast and they meet a Sinn Féin rep who kind of, you know, is very friendly but just sort of chatsthem up with, you know, IRA propaganda and there's like a Republican folk music band playing.
26:18I just thought that like its attention to politics was really fine and that it showed like,you know, the places in which politics happens, like these clubs.and, you know, back rooms and so and so forthand shows, like, the real kind of, like, civil society infrastructure of it,and I really appreciated that level of detail,and it kind of, like, made the movie come alive,and sort of, like, made it feel,even though there was something arguably always a little bit preposterous
26:52about, like, a conspiracy plot in a movie,like, it just, those, these touches of, like,of political realism in the movieand just showing, like, how,these groups work and are integrated into their communities and showing like the culture of the police andtheir like their attitudes and so and so forth I thought like really made I think it makes the movie likemuch more worth watching and interesting than it had it been like okay straightforwardly this is sortof conspiracy thriller it was like it's like really puts the political and political thriller because
27:29Because it's so kind of aware of its, you know, of the environment that all these things happen.I think that's right.It's not, for its central driving, you know, through line might be this conspiracy theory,but it's not, it's not like a Baroque conspiracy movie.I love Oliver Stones, JFK.I think it's a really, I think it's a fine film.But it's 100, it's like, it's Baroque and it's,you know, it's convoluted and it's sort of like, it feels like the, it feel, watching it
28:08feels like you're stepping into the, into a fever dream. And this does not feel like that.Even if, even if it is, you know, somewhat similar to its conspiracy minded approach to recenthistory, it, it has that, like you said, that touch of realism, um, that, um, that,touch of this being alived-in world in politicsbeing abeing something not simply the machinationsof elites but like actual ordinary
28:39regular people are committedto these things.Yeah, that was cool. And yeah,and they show like the journalistsand the, yeah, that'sI just thought that that was likeone of the more valuable parts of the movie.The showing
28:55of what Belfast and the Troubles look likereally being shotthere and just showing like the working the everyday working of politics i thought was really cool ithink that like yeah all over soan's an interesting comparison because in some of this ways thismovie's like a thinking man's jfk because it's like a more plausible conspiracy in a way it's notsome kind of like shadowy figures like you know it's very clear who would stand to benefit fromthis and it's it takes place in a more plausible worldUm, but yeah, I think that there, Ken Loach, the director who's, you know, a left wing director and was
29:38closely associated with Jeremy Corbin, you know, his politics, I mean, I think Stone has really,I don't even know if you could say he's on the left anymore, but like he's a certain, there's acertain brand of like, I think this was bigger in the 90s than it is now. It's like a conspiratorialleftism, which is really like kind of obsessed with the idea that there's these likecabals, like not like a structural leftism that's like, well, this is the way politicswork, but it's like there's literally cabals of the ruling class, like making these likedecisions to do things for their own profit and, and, uh, you know, consciously manipulatingpolitics and, uh, and, uh, we're.
30:26World Affairs. I think that conspiratorial left tradition, Stone has it. This movie has a littlebit of it. And, you know, my theory, okay, so I just want to say that the conspiracy theories inthis movie are kind of credible. Like, there was something weird going on. So Harold Wilson,who was the labor prime minister before Thatcher. And there was a rumor created by,like MI5 ormy 6 that he was a KGB plantand then it seemed like there's all these differentwhispering about that there had been some kind of like
31:04coup thoughts of a coup against himthere was lots of strikes going onthe elite the business elite was very unhappythe military was very unhappy the intelligence serviceis very happy about him and thoughtmaybe started to believe their own lies with the KGB thingsomething weird happened and there was someI was just reading about this some weird royal army exercise where they took over or that no,
31:32they took over Heathrow Airport on the pretext of fighting the IRA, but it actually, like, they didn'tinform the prime minister and Harold Wilson interpreted this as being like sort of like the armyshowing that it could like act without him.So something weird was going on and lots of serious people.believe that there may have been some contemplation of a coup or some attempt at something withHarold Wilson. So I'm just going to say that. It's not, it's not that crazy. Something weird wasgoing on. But I do think that the movie, so the movie, this is in 1990, the labor power has been,the labor party has been out of power since, you know, for a decade. Thatcher has completely
32:19rolled back, you know, or largely rolled back what, you know, labor had accomplished. I mean, no one'sbeen able to get rid of the National Health Service, but, you know, roll back a lot of what laboraccomplished, you know, after the war and a way of privatizations, and it's very traumatic.There's lots of unemployment, you know, and Britain sort of deindustrializing. And I thinkthat the Labor Party is just going mad in this period. I mean, they had, and I think my theoryis that this movie, that these Harold Wilson theories served as the mythology in a way to explainlabor's loss of power. In a similar way that the Oliver Stone JFK theory is like, why did Vietnamhappen? And they're like, well, and it's this dayus ex-mocking it. Well, like, well, because they
33:13killed JFK. And I mean, that's absurd. JFK was a cold warrior. I don't think LBJ and JFK's policieson Indo-China really had that much light in between them.JFK oversaw, I mean, it was complicated,but he was at the president when they had the coup to overthrow Ziam,and Ziam was assassinated.They did all the sorts of horrible Cold War things we complain about,and we say, oh, I can't believe the U.S. did the coups and this.I mean, there's a Bay of Pigs, everything.
33:43So the whole myth that, like, some evil core of the security stuff,They got rid of JFK and that's why we had Vietnam and so and so forth.I think these are like sort of coping mechanisms for a left that found itself out of power,unable to influence policy with limited political prospects.And the imagination turned to explanations for that,which were there were some sort of plot that prevented, you know,that that is the reason why the conservatives are in power i mean and not let's not think about likewell you know there was all these different crises economic crises and you know there's a
34:34political offer to deal with them that was popular got a mandate you know so on so forth so i dothink you know some critics said the movie they they said okay the movie was sort of typicallyBritish and that it kind of made theNorthern Irishconflict a side show of like what thereal important thing was which wasyou know like what was happening in British politicskind of I mean as much as I like the movie
34:59kind of a fair criticismfrom a political standpointbecause likeyeah it's just like thethe IRA exists toto give this tapethat's supposed to fix laborparty's problems and fix the British left's
35:15problems their own struggleis sort of put aside.Like, they're just like, well, we have something to help you.We, Irish, have something to help you with.So, like, I get the country criticism of the movie.I'm always a little bit, I mean, I like, for the sake of movies, you know, conspiracy plots are great.But I'm always somewhat suspicious of the function of conspiracy as part of the politicalimagination and how it's a, you know, a way of.
35:47not doing real analysis or a way of like retreating into fantasy to avoid you know political realitiesyeah i mean i i don't have i'm not sure if i have anything to say about that with regards toum uk politics but i think you can certainly see that very thing happening in real time right nowin the united states with the way that conspiracies about a stolen election conspiracies aboutyou know the deep state or what have you serve to both serve as a cope for um a sizable portionof the right wing but also serve as sort of like a galvanizing myth right for for future actionfor doing something about it and that's sort of i mean that's sort of interesting thing aboutconspiracy theories um is that they can they can both immobilize right sort of like if if if there is
36:47some shadowy cabal, right, right, to use JFK as an example again, if there is some shadowy cabal ofthe mob and the Cubans and gay libertines in New Orleans, who are, who are, I really can't waitto talk about that movie.The whole homophobic part of that is just really wild.Yeah, that's kind of glossed over.We'll get to that movie soon enough, and I can't wait.It's a wild movie.But if that shadowy cabal exists and it has so much power that it can sort of assassinate a U.S. president with impunity or depose a labor government with impunity, then why bother doing anything?
37:30Like, what could you possibly do to fight back?But on the other hand, that's the immobilizing element of conspiracies.But on the other hand, you know, positive.that the current order isillegitimate, right?That sort of like, actually, the people might beon your side, right? They've just been stymiedby this cabal. They've been stymied by
37:55these elitescan serveto energize on the flip side.Can serve to sort of likefortify you againstfortify you for a politicalbattle of some kind.Yeah, I think it's like, it's just
38:12sort of like, you know, you have toexplain your loss to yourself in a way that doesn't you know that doesn't lead to just depressionand humiliation so sometimes you're just like they cheated or like they're they're crooks or you knowlike obviously there's different degrees of this and it reaches really psychotic levels to to a certaindegree but these sorts of these sorts of notions are are pretty common in politics um but yeahI mean, at one point in the movie, Brian Cox's character actually, like, confronts the very posh, you know, intelligence guys who, um, you know, basically admit to him, even though they've been assassinating people to cover this up, they basically admit to him that, you know, the, yeah, we did that. And we had to because, like, the country demanded it. Um, and they give him their whole philosophy of reasons of state. And he's not convinced. But he's not convinced. But, but,ultimately they try to blackmail him and ultimately it works i mean he he drops the investigationwhich i think is actually a very interesting ending where he doesn't uncover the conspiracy
39:22it ends on a very ambiguous ambivalent way where he kind of abandoned francis mcdormandwhose you know boyfriend was murdered and he's like look i'm just a cop i like can't getinvolved with this wild stuff and he goes back to Britain they charge the guys who literally committedthe murder but not you know the people who ordered it or the whole system behind it I think you knowobviously like that's where the movie sort of goes back into having a more structural dimension whereit's like yeah you know like the cop wouldn't be able to do that like he would just he's likethis is this is my function in the system and like I'm not going to be able to like bring it all downSo, like, even though he's a hero for part of the movie, and he's very dogged in trying to get his, you know, build the case, get the truth out, like, at some point, he gives up and he, and he doesn't go for it, which, you know, I thought it was pretty smart and, you know, in some ways an unsatisfying ending because he kind of just walks off in the airport.
40:32But I think in some ways, like, again, brings the realism to the fore and also kind of, you know, as much as much as this person had good intentions, their function in the system limited, you know, what they could actually do.And he's blackmail and he just, he just has to, you know, kind of slink away.And, yeah, so, you know, it's kind of a desperate and bleak ending, which sort of fits the overallscenery of the movie.But, yeah, it's not like they blow the cover over of all these people.It's just sort of like they get away with it.It reminds me, it reminds me very much of the ending to Alan Pacula's The Paralax View,which is which I mean is sort of another fever dream of a movie but ends right like if you if listeners
41:39have not seen it I highly recommend it has a very great performance by Warren Beatty but it endsmore or less with the conspirators triumphant right they they they and sort of the whole kindof conceded the ending is that do you really expect that some journalists is going to be able toto uncover this right it's sort of like I think I think the Paralyx viewis filmed and release after all the president's men.I think it's that trilogy of filmsjust clute all the president's menand the parallax view.
42:11And the parallax view in this weird wayis like this answer to all the president's menwhere all the presidents of menthe dogged journalists do uncoverthe conspiracy,the real live conspiracy in the White House.And then this is sort of like, come on,come on now.
42:26Did you really expect that this should even be possible?And in a similar way,for as much asBrian Cox's characteris likeI thinksincerely and generallylike morally offended
42:40by what he's learnedand in his heart of heartswould like to do somethingabout itit's sort of likewell he's justultimately he's just a detectivehe's a cop
42:49and whatyou knowis he really goingto risk his lifehis careerforthe off chancethat you might be able to do what, embarrass these people.
43:09And I agree that it was, I actually, as a fan of movies that just sort of end, right,that don't like have any, you know, 15 minute drawn out, you know, denouement, but justsort of like, this is it.I appreciated that that's how the film.ended and it was a another touch of realism um in this conspiracy thriller because the you knowagain the other to go back to j f k the other way to end the movie it's just with like someyou know great speechifying and you've uncovered the whole thing and um so on and so forthyeah i mean it's not a hollywood movie which like it's valuable sometimes because it takes away
44:01like the conventions of needing to like have those satisfying endings that hollywood audiences expectand uh you know the tagline of the movie is the truth can never be buried but that's not reallywhat the movie the message that comes away from the movie the the messages that the truth canvery much be buried um so yeah i mean i think yeah i think that this this is a cutabove. I mean, you know, I don't know if it is as. I also just want to talk about the style of thefilm. There's something very like the type of realism of it and the sort of, there's not a lot of diet.What is dietic scores? That means it's in the movie or not in the movie. The non-diate, there's no,there's no non-dietic score and there's very little music at all. And like, it's, um, it gives,
45:01gives it this kind of very hectic feeling there's something disjointed about the movie's sense of timeand like it makes it you know stressful to watch and adds to the suspense but it's like it doesn'tbuild drama in exactly the same way that like an accelerating American thriller does and I thinkit's like kind of actually a little makes it a little difficult to get into it first but thenactually you sort of see that artistically it makes a lot of sense with the subject matterbut um yeah i think that where was i going with this i think that it's um yeah it's lack of likefulfilling certain thriller conventions really works and makes it like feel like a more seriousmovie than some of the other movies we've watched yeah well there are these like little cinema
46:01veraite touches throughout yeah exactly at the very beginning well not the very beginning but sort ofthe next scene after the parade it's this press conference with Brad Durif and FrancisMcDormons characters and their kind of colleagues and that scene is very much film like anactual news press conference with sort of the the the some of the confusion and a tactic andpeople trying to answer and answer questions and ask questions and the the um the you knowcivil liberties folks are our our our cast of characters aren't confident assured uh officialsthey're sort of fumbling for papers and sort of you know they're they're they play these peopleas like actual, you know, basically bureaucrats who are just doing their job.
46:56So I thought, I think you're right, those, there are a lot of those touches in the movie,the scene where Brad Durf's character and his sort of Irish driver are killed by the Britishparamilitaries is also similarly, it's not, it's not shot in this kind of like dramatic way.It's very, no, no, no, it's very much, it's very quick.And one of the paramilitary is after their car crashes and runs over and shootsby Derb's character in the back.It's very unceremonious.It's very sort of just like, you know, a final bullet just because that's what you do.
47:35But there's no real, there's no oomf to it or anything.And I think you're right that those touches really complement and help sort of balance outthe conspiratorialness of the plot.sort of like it's sort of it it knowing that you have this wild claim coming in the moviethe hype kind of the i wouldn't say hyper realism but the strong orientation towardsrealism um helps helps counterbalance that and i thought it i thought it was compelling i meanthere's a in that press conference scene there's just the moment where you can tell a handheldcamera is used the kind of track i think francis mcdorman's character and it was at that point where
48:15kind of like, oh, this is a bit more, this might be a bit more interesting than I think, that Ianticipated, because it was not the kind of touch I was expecting from, from this kind of movie.For sure, for sure. Yeah. And yeah, so I think it was like, it had, it had aspirations to make, like,some serious political commentary. I think it did its, you know, it conducted its filmmaking in such a waythat wouldn't get in the way of that with melodrama and, you know, some sort of ridiculousaction movie cliches. So I think, like, those choices all really worked. I mean, at this date,how does it feel as political commentary? I mean, the conflict itself has changed so much. Britain haschanged quite a deal. Is it dated? I don't know. I think I had the,
49:13historically i find it very interesting um i think that it's not something that we ought to forget i meanthe conflict has sort of come to some better resolution it's not quite as desperate as what what it wasas it once was um but yeah i think that like as a piece of as a historical document and just as ayou know a pretty fine movie um i think it reallyworks I think that like I kind of like for some reason I'm very I don't know if this is like a nerd this is probably just like a nerd quality but I'm very attracted to these like forgotten like not that the troubles are forgotten but like how many like how many movies are made now about this kind of thing like these these these these these corners of the world that have these complicated and interesting politics um you know conflictthat have deep historical roots and like there's not that many films now that like deal withthese sort of things in serious in an interesting way i mean this movie is tendentious it has a veryclear socialist left-wing message which not a huge problem for me but you know but i think it's
50:32also still like a fine movie even if you don't quite share its politics but i mean how manylike we we often end up having this lament but it's just like why can't we make movies aboutthese sorts of like i would love to watch a movie about like cashmere or like just things i don'tknow very much about or like yeah like just i mean it might be difficult for political reasonsbut um yeah like i just want to have more movies that sort of not didactic but likeyou know, you can get a sense of what's going on in the world and the stakes of these differentconflicts in places that you don't necessarily think about every day.So, yeah, I mean, like, I really appreciate these films that deal with these sorts of conflicts.
51:26I would watch a lot more of them if they were out.So I know we always end up with this kind of old man.They don't make them like they used to.But, I mean, like, it's too bad.I mean, like, these, these, I think as cinema, it's a, these are compelling backdrops and very good dramatic backdrops.And they're also just on an intellectual level, like, interesting subject matters that, that, you know, reward thought and research and kind of like prompt you to think about politics and history.So, you know, I think that this movie works on that level.And I, I mean, can you think of a?
52:07a recent movie that does this?I've been trying to think of one and I can't.I mean, I can't even really think of a recentserious, like, Americanpolitical thriller, right, that deals withAmerican politics any kind ofinteresting way. It's justsort of, it's a combination, right,
52:23of, like, mid-budget moviesjust aren't made anymore. It's just, like,not a thing that,right, and what's an independent movie isif they areif anything close to them gets made it's for streaming it's like a streaming series but um yeah but thoseare like two entertainment or like they're okay I will say that some of the streaming stuff likedoes try to find because I think just in the search for content they're like I can imagine them
52:56trying something like an IRA series or something like that like because they just need to findsomething to write about and there is some audience.for that kind of thing like British Isles and Ireland like has an American audience that like isinterested in that kind of stuff but like yeah there's just it's not it's it's always like reallyI just watched that Munich movie and it was it's just like a little dumb down like there's justnot like it's not done with the same level of sophistication it's like you know like it's it'sIt's pretty, like, level A history, and then, you know, there's very, very idealistic people trying to do their best in these situations.It's just, like, I don't know.
53:45Not that I think everything needs to be gritty and cynical, but I think that, like, I do miss, you know, a political thriller that has a kind of hard-boiled perspective.Let's put it that way.Yeah.No, I asked you why, I'm just looking at this list of recent political thrillers, and it's sort of it's, there's a lot of, I mean, the 90s up here, really are kind of the last great decade for this sort of thing. I mean, in the 2010s you had a movie like the Ides of March, which is terrible. It's not good. You have, you have some thrillers, but they kind of, a movie like Hidden Agenda or, or, or, or, or, or, or, or, you have.or even something much less sophisticated, like enemy of the state from later in the decade,it just doesn't really get made anymore.And a part of me wonders if it's a generational thing, right?But like in the 90s, these movies, when they were made, still did kind of rely on the directors
54:55and actors of the 70s who were, who made and started these things.during their heyday, right?Like, the real heyday of a serious adult political thriller.And that generation in the backgris is just, I mean, they've,and direct groups has died, they've retired, they're not really in the game anymore.And there's just not, there just is not the, I mean, I'm not sure there's the interestsfrom the public.There's certainly not the interest from financiers, from Hollywood.
55:29And just sort of in terms of actual people to play,the roles and direct the films.I wonder if there's just like a not enough, not enough people.Well, one that wasn't so bad.Well, they did a TV series, John LaCarray.They've done a few John LaCarray things, like, which we're going to do aJohn LaCarray movie next.They did Little Drama Girl TV thing wasn't that great.
55:56They did the night manager, which I think was made for TV movie, was okay.Then they did the Tinker Taylor.soldier spy movie which was okay but again it was like a 70s period piece and like it was almostlike out of its nostalgia like it's a great it's a great thriller it's a great plot it's a greatstory but and like I thought they did a pretty like some people are like fans of the originalseries and the books I kind of hate that movie but I thought they did like a fine job but um likeit was very much playing up it's like 70 it was like not exactly the samesame level of like once upon a time in Hollywood it's like trying to like play up its period
56:37thing or licorish pizza but it was definitely like trying to be like see what amazing likeart direction we have and we've like recreated the the you know this this kind of likecold war milieu and I like that and I can get into it but it wasn't like it was almost not donefor its own sake but that was like the only one I could really remember and that was aremake of an adaptation of an old novel so it wasn't like a new script so yeah i mean like it's it'sit's quite it's quite a die a dead thing it's kind of too bad i mean like you know the weird thing isi don't know the first mission possible which we're going to get to is like much different from thelater ones like i love it it's actiony but it's also like kind of a baroque
57:32plot and espionage stuff going on and like i thought it was a really cool movie and like you knowpeople walked out of that movie because the plot was so intense like i just remember and like kindof like being like whoa what happened there and and the and the later ones just it i mean i i knowthat it has fans but it just kind of morphed into a total action series and maybe that that's that trajectorykind of is like well you know we need to make blockbusters um there's not enough of an audiencefor this kind of like simmering these movies that kind of simmer and don't like explode every twothree minutes so i don't i think it would be really hard i mean like we're really into this stuffbut i'm like this movie's like low key it's got a weird realist style like if you just pop this on
58:21for a lot of people i think they would be like what the fuck is going on this is boring yeah i thinkthat's right but so maybe we're just sickos but like theI think that it would, I mean, this is maybe taking this a step too far,but considering a lot of the things we've seen in the media recently,I think it might actually do the public some good to chew on some movies that were a little bit more sophisticated.Well, I mean, judging from how if you, on the internet say that like a Marvel movie,maybe might not be that good and you'll have people you know uh losing your minds you they want to crucify youyeah you criticize a wes anderson movie recently and people people lost their minds well i oh god i just
59:19was like yeah i mean i they went looting tunes on me and i was just i didn't even hate it i wrotea lukewarm review i said it was like yeah you know like he's kind of doing the same thing i thinklike his early movies were better and he's kind of gotten carried away people went loonies theyattack me they call me an idiot all kinds of things but like yeah i mean he's got like he's he's he'ssort of an artur i mean he is definitely an artur who has like a weird style but it's like yeah he'shis style has become like stuck and like he's doing like i know what his movies are going to belike and like i mean so so here's kind of kind of to this point there were thereis one recent political movie that has gotten a lot of press and it's don't look up it's that
01:00:07movie about oh fuck that but here's the thing right that it's that movie came out and it wasimpossible it's impossible to have any kind of nuanced conversations but movie it's not a nuancedmovie certainly but even the conversation even the even the discussion of the movieis so bogged down in the kind of you know culture war so annoying fansRandom, Stan, all these things that kind of shape cultural discourse in the moment.I think they're just not, they're not, the way cultural discourse is structured, outside of sort of like very niche spaces, it's just difficult to have an intelligent conversation in public about political media.And so if you were to put together a movie like this, if you, if you were to make a, a, uh, here's a movie.that came out recently that I loved, the report about the Senate Torture report, it has
01:01:07it has Adam Driver doing his best, doing his best Mark Ruffalo, they know.I really like the movie a lot.It was sort of Atlanta, you know, no one watched it, right?Or a Mark Ruffalo movie, Deep Waters, about sort of, you know, chemical companies poisoningWest Virginia Waterways. Great film, kind of in this sort of like conspiracy politicalvein. No one watched it. Right. It's sort of like there's no, the audience for these thingshas become very, very niche. And so if, you know, I could, I feel like if I put my mind to it,I could like, you know, I could write a movie about some, you know, recent, you know, political,
01:01:52political event to write a movie aboutohI can think of one really goodrecent one little controversialthe ghost writerI never saw thatoh you should see it it's a great movie that's a great movieokay that's an exception but he again like
01:02:12that's a director like you were sayingthese 70s directors who are dyingit's one who hasn't died you know likeso that's likehe's just like familiar with the genre and can make a great camp.It's a Polansky.Well,yeah,
01:02:27it's Palantzky movie.We're going to cut this part of the show.We'll keep this in.We'll keep this in.Okay.It's a good movie.I mean,I don't think he's a good guy.
01:02:41I'm just saying he is a good movie.He's a bad guy,but a very talented director.I watched a,was it,is it,uh,it's a Harrison Ford Polansky.
01:02:52from the late 80s um oh yeah what are what are the movies in the harrison for it i didn't killmy wife yeah genre yeah i forget to know that one um anyway we're you know we're kind oframbling a little bit so let's let's wrap let's wrap up um listers have they like tangent moretangents but i'm okay i can do tangents i'm sort of anti tangent uh for the most part you want tokeep it tight and on topic.Yes. So let's...I can do a tangents all day.Let's, um, let's wrap up.
01:03:29I feel like we've gotten to our final thoughts.Um, but is there anything, any last thing you want to say about the movie?No, I just, I just really recommend this movie.If you're looking for a, like a really well made thriller about interesting historicaltopic and, you know, it's not a terribly long movie.and yeah it's really worth of the last few movies that we've watched which have been you know more ofhistorical curiosity let's say than like actual pieces of art this is a this is a worthwhilemovie on yeah i strongly agree i really enjoyed this um my wife really enjoyed it for whatever
01:04:13it's worth and um it is it is it is an hour and 40 minutes it's like in that sweet spot for a weeknight movie so highly recommend it and you can watch it for free um as well uh okay so i thinkwith that we can call this a show if you are not a subscriber please subscribe uh we're availableon itunes spotify stitch radio and google podcast and wherever else podcasts are found if yousubscribe please leave a rating and a review last time i checked about 147 of you have done thatSo thank you very much.It does help people find the show.You can reach out to both of us on Twitter.
01:04:57I am at Jay Bowie.John, you are.I'm at vinyl trolling.At vinyl underscore trolling.Episodes come out every other Friday.So we will see you in two weeks with the Russia House.Finally.Finally.
01:05:14The much anticipated, much awaited Russia House, a movie I've never seen.so I'm looking forward to checking it out.For John Gans, I am Jemel Bowie,and this is unclear and present danger.See you next time.Thank you.
There aren't comments yet for this episode. Click any sentence in the transcript to leave one.