Unclear and Present Danger - Unclear and Present Politics [PATREON PREVIEW]

Episode Date: October 24, 2025

Every week, we do a political discussion show over at the Patreon. We wanted to offer you a preview of that show in the form of a full episode, which happens to be our most recent episode, on the Graham Platner affair in Maine. If you like our discussion, sign up for the Patreon to get an episode very week at patreon.com/unclearpod.

Hello and welcome to the unclear and present politics podcast, our Patreon side show, I guess, where we talk about the issues. I don't have my soundboard with me. I am away from home. Unclear and present politics. We talk about the issues. And I would like to note real quick, regular listeners know the deal here. But this is also showing up on the main feed. Hello, main feed listeners.

And consider this a preview. This is one of the things we're doing over at the Patreon. And if you'd like to listen to previous episodes of Unclear and present politics and listen to future ones, come sign up at patreon.com slash unclear pod. Patreon listeners, thank you for your support as always. And this week, we skipped last week because we're busy. We're busy people. We have lives and jobs. Some of our jobs.

You have a job. I kind of have a job. You have a job. I have a job that they're like, you know, they're letting this slide for now. Right. Well, let's see how long we can get away with it. It's basically our. No, I'm doing a regular podcast at the time, like the opinions every week. And so that's my out. They're like, okay, as long as you're doing opinion podcasting for us, we're not going to bother you too much. Anyway, this week we are going to talk about, at first at least, we're going to try to, to get into the shutdown a bit, and we have some shutdown thoughts. But our first topic this week is just the business happening up in Maine. So next year, Senator Susan Collins, I'm about to say Olympia Snow, but she hasn't been in office for years. Same difference.

Senator Susan Collins is up, although I'll say the existence of Olympia Snow is actually an important data point here. Senator Susan Collins is up for re-election. She's a long-serving Senator. I didn't check, but I think she's been in office for at least four terms, I think five terms. She's been there for quite a while, long-serving Maine Senator. And an electoral juggernaut, someone who even in 2008, a Democratic wave year, Barack Obama crushed in Maine, Susan Collins utterly crushed her opponent. And that's generally how these things go for Colin. She is a truly formidable political opponent. But next year, people are expecting a good Democratic. year. And Collins, who has been substantively aligned with Trump, although not always

rhetorically aligned with Trump, seems to be vulnerable. And so there's this very competitive Democratic primary taking shape. And two months ago, I'd say a candidate in the race, Graham Platner, a 40-year-old oyster fisherman, I suppose. I'm not entirely sure what the oyster farmer. Oyster farmer. I'm not sure what the nomenclature is, but oyster farming. Oysterman. Oysterman. A 40-year-old oysterman who immediately captured hearts and minds on the progressive left and even in the center with his economic populism, his stance against the war in Gaza and his condemnation of the genocide, and then also a kind of performance, I'd say, of white, blue-collar masculinity. that many people, many people, that's how it begins his videos. That's how it begins his videos. I think many people in the Democratic Party believe is necessary to stemming the party's losses with men in particular.

So Platter made a splash. Things have been chugging along just fine. And the other candidate who got into the race in between then and now is the currently serving governor, Janet Mills. She is 70. Recruited by Chuck Schumer in the race, has won multiple statewide elections, and it's a pretty standard issue, moderate Democrat, you know, kind of basically at replacement level. With Mills's entrance into the race, and Mills being a real competitor as well, we're starting to get the first round of basically opposition research dumps. And a couple of things have come out about Plattner. The first are some Reddit posts from, what, 10 years ago, where he is speaking about women who have been sexually assaulted in the military and suggesting that perhaps their behavior has something to do with it. He, let's say, there's some other stuff. That's the one I have in front of mine, but there are a few other. He called other rural white people racist.

he said they are stupid and racist. I should know because I live here. You know, there were some other stuff. He called himself a communist. He called himself a communist. He's turned to the mean things about cops. Yeah, cops. And then he was like, he was like, I'm like, I'm going to, like, you need an AR 15 to fight

fascism or something like that anyway. Right, right. Stuff like that. So the most recent, the most recent. the most recent what's where i'm looking for scandal i guess scant i don't like that word but the most recent hubbub about platinum involves a tattoo he has um he has a tattoo on his chest and it is of and i'll ask you about this john to me when i saw the tattoo i was like oh that's an s s death's head oh yeah of course i don't understand how anybody i mean like okay there are probably people who are

not, you know, history, history efficient nerds or know about politics or whatever. And they would be like, oh, that's a skull and crossbones. But I would say anybody who has taken a class on World War II or watched a documentary on the history channel about World War II or just watches World War II movies. Yeah, like they, everybody knows what the hell that is. Yeah, I was like, oh, that's an SS. That's definitely that. And it's like, it's that skull.

It's not, it's not. So I would recommend, and maybe Connor, I'm talking to our producer right now, Connor Lynch, shout out to Connor. Connor, in this, keep this in, by the way, when you, when you edit this, can you just, maybe you could drop some images from, from films. Like you can, you know, Christoph Waltz's character and Inglorious Bastards, who is an SS officer, has a symbol on his hat, that sketch, you know, the baddies, the character has that on his, on his cap as well.

It's a recognizable symbol. I mean, what does skulls make you think of? Death, cannibals, beheading. I really can't think of anything worse as a symbol than a skull. It's an SS symbol, yeah. Right. So Platter has an SS death's head. I forget what the German term is, but I know, Totenkov.

I know it as a death head. And I'll say, I, You know, John, you know this. I like to go to car shows, and sometimes I go to gun shows and old antique shops. I'm kind of, I'm low-key, kind of a hillbilly in my personal life. So I go to these things, and I've been to more than my fair share of antique shops and gun shows where you'll find this kind of stuff. Yeah. So I recognize the symbol, and it's all in Plattner's chest.

And he got it, he says, well, on deployment, and he was a Marine, and he was drunk, and he was in Croatia, and got this tattoo on his chest, randomly picked it out. That's the initial story in that he's, he had it since then, and that's all he knew about it. And it's news to him that it has anything to do with Nazi Germany. Subsequent reporting suggests that he may have actually known what it was. There is a report from someone who says they know Platner that he referred to it, you know, 10 years ago as his little Totenkov on his chest. So there's that. And so the scandal is just about the tattoo about what Plattener knew about it. Which is now covered up.

He's now covered up with a Norse symbol, which, you know. Among American neo-Nazis, there's, like, an obsession with Norse imagery. So to cover up your death's head with a Norse, with, I think, it's Fenrir Dever, devouring the world. It is suspect. It just is. But the tattoo's there, and there's emerged this basically debate. And on one side, it's looking, you know, on one side, it's, we should look for the best candidate to confine, but having that kind of symbol on your body, tattooed in your body for, what, 15 years, 18 years, and never having removed or covered up or anything, at the very least, is a sign of bad judgment, is a sign that this guy may not be ready for prime time. And at worst is a sign that he has some ugly beliefs.

And then the other side, it's we can't just banish people for mistakes. You know, we're bleeding out with male voters. And to use some of the language, we don't want to, you know, bend to hall monitors and goody two shoes and so on and so forth when we have this really compelling candidate. Right. I'll say my view here is that I have like I have a discourse critique and then an actual substantive one the discourse critique is that this has all become a proxy war for sort of elite status and influence within the Democratic Party right it's it's it's it's podcasters it's consultants it's all these people arguing about who gets to who gets to lead who has to have influence and it's the another episode in the um struggle about whether or not, you know, the woke's so-called are going to be in the driver's eater anywhere near it or whether they should be shoved out. So, you know, six months ago it's about the groups. Now it's about this. The substantive thing is I don't know what's

in Grand Platin's heart. I don't know the guy. I know very little about him. I do think that at some point, if you were interested in political office and you were serious about it, you got to do something about that tattoo. Even if it's innocent to you, you got to do something about that tattoo. I think the evidence is decent that he very much knew what the symbol was. And so I don't buy the explanation that this was news to him. But if it's interested in political office, you got to do something about the tattoo. And to my mind, the bad judgment, I can excuse the bad judgment of getting the tattoo in the first place if the story is true. I kind of can't excuse the bad judgment of just leaving it on. And I especially can't excuse the bad judgment of entering

a Senate race and not getting immediately ahead of this. Like, this is among the first things you get ahead of if you are trying to be a candidate for high office. And what's been a bit frustrating to me about the conversation is that it's everyone's speaking as if this is a solid blue state and a solid blue seat. But as I said in my intro, Susan Collins is a top electoral performer. Right. So you really can't make any mistakes here. And this is the kind of bad judgment in my mind that is indicative of mistakes that will be made on the campaign trail if he were to become the nominee. But I'd love to hear your thoughts, John. I've been talking a You know what? I was sort of interested in grand platinum. I wouldn't say I was as excited

him as other people were, right? So I was like, okay, you know, that's a new look. And maybe that's something that could work. And maybe the Democratic Party needs some new energy and some different kinds of figures. I wasn't entirely like on board with him. I was like, yeah, I'm interested to see the way this primary plays out. When Mills joined the race, I was, I lent, I leaned more towards Platner because I was like, dude, come on, like 78 years old, just, just complete a stout. Like, have we learned nothing? Right. And then is this whole, you know, the way you just recapt it, I'm sorry.

This sounds like a Veep, Ian Nucci representation of the Democratic Party. It's like you've got a, you know, a hidebound establishment that's just rolling out, sometimes literally, these very geriatric candidate. and then you have these, like, goofy insurgencies that are, like, not really thought through and are not political professionals. That's not always the case. I mean, like, Mom Dani's doing a very professional job. But, like, so it's just, you could make a movie about this and the, and the whole story with, oh, he turns out to have a Nazi tattoo and, like, that creates a whole scandal on the internet. Yeah, it feels like an I, Inuchi movie. Platner's story, I mean, like, I kind of believe him. Like, you know, I, I, but, but the whole thing is like, yeah, you know, like,

okay, that makes sense. And, and, you know, if you've met Marines, you know, they have a culture of being, like, you know, to do things to, edge lording culture, you know? So, so, like, I, I get, I get it. Like, and I, and I kind of believe his story. I think it is a little weird that he didn't cover it up. I mean, it's dumb that he didn't cover it up. Look, I feel like I have pretty good Nazi radar, and I don't exactly get those vibes from him. But I do, here's what I, here's what I will say. You know, there is a taboo on Nazi symbols. And that's a really well-founded one. And it's one that you kind of need to enforce without, you know, this discourse about whether or not he meant it or didn't mean. It's just you can't, you can't be a United States senator with

a Nazi tattoo. You know, like, I'm sorry. That's just, I'm fine with that as a norm. like just no and yeah he covered it up but yeah it shows really bad judgment it shows a lack of taste it shows a lack of sensitivity it shows a lack of you know it's just like also we are in a political and i would say in different universe i would be like all right man like maybe we'll let this slide but we're in a political universe where there are actual Nazis like in american politics right you know just this week there was a you know we had the story a couple weeks ago in political them in this story about this Ingracia guy who's a Groyper, you know, Fuentes guy and, and claim to be kind of a, have a Nazi streak in his leaked text. Like, there are Nazis in the administration. And if you're weakening your ability to call them out and identify them and you're lowering the taboo on Nazi symbols and being like, eh, is it really big a deal to have Nazi symbols? And then somebody else comes along is like, I also have a Nazi tattoo. And then you're like, hey, man, like, no, like, that's, that's horrible. And he's like, well, Graham Platner had one, you know, like, it's just weakening. And that's the way that these politics work. It's just weakening the taboo. So I think, you know, at this point, but I just think like, all right, that's a taboo that kind of has to be enforced rigorously. And, yeah, and it's like, yeah, it weakens. And then, okay, so Platner is like many Democrats now, like us, I think, you know, moved quite leftward on on Israel and Palestine. And, you know, our, our, our, our, our, our, our, our.

are critical of Israel and sympathetic to Palestinian, you know, national aspirations. And the big knock from, you know, from people who are partisans of Israel is that people who are like that are anti-Semites. And if you, you are a liability, people on the, on the, on the far left, you know, to the left of me have pointed this, even pointed this out. They're like, you are a liability for pro-Palestine politics. If you're walking around with a, if you once had a Nazi tattoo because you're going to get hit for the anti-Semitism shit. So it's just a huge political liability. I mean, like this, and I'm, yeah, I'm just like, you know, dude, like, it sucks because

I was kind of like, okay, this seems kind of interesting. And I thought the Mills thing, I was like, give me a break. But you know what? And now I'm like, all right, they're probably going to lose to fucking Susan Collins anyway. Like, this whole race is now at the back all and a silly and silliness. And the thing about Collins is, is like, yeah, she's not reliable Trump opponent, but she did vote to convict him. But, you know, Trump seems to be kind of going bygones, let bygones be bygones with that stuff. Because like Bill Cassidy was in the White House the other day, you know, they were paling around.

So, I mean, I don't know. She's not the worst Republican senator. She is politically pretty strong. She is older. And I think, like, yeah, there is an anti-establishmentarian. wave, obviously, we're in the midst of. So a Platner kind of candidacy, I could see the thinking that would say, well, Platner is a better candidate to defeat Susan Collins than Mills, right? So if you're picking between two establishmentarians, I think they would probably just stick

with Collins, right? But if there was an insurgent candidate, I could see the, I can understand the politics. I can understand the argument about that. So it's unfortunate that this guy turned out to be a fucking moron. I'm sorry. And like, I'm sorry. And like, dude, not to insult anybody in Maine, but, like, I know also, like, I've seen people in, like, you know, who are friends and I've seen their social media. Like, this is like a Mainer Edge Lord thing. I don't know if it's like New Englanders. It's like, they go back and forth. They're like, one day they're like super Islamophobic. And then they're like, if they're a cop ever came to my house, I'd like blow them away with my AR 15. It's just like this weird like mixture of like edge lording and extreme right and extreme stances.

And I don't know. It seems to be like, I don't know if it's only a main thing or it's everywhere in the country. But it's just like, you know, and I'm sure he's since becoming more serious and becoming a more sincere person. And, you know, he seems to be kind of like, I'm sure he has the commitments, some of the commitments, he says are sincere. But like, dude, he just doesn't strike me as a serious person. person. You know, like, that's another part of it. I'm just like, you're a dip shit who got a fucking nonsense tattoo. And then it's like, you know, he just, he just, there's something clownish about it. I'm sorry to say. And like, I, I'm sad about it because I was, I wasn't completely

convinced, but I was like, all right, let's see. And I think, but look, what happened with Fetterman? Everybody all, all these, like, all these dirtbag left guys got so excited about Fetterman because he looked so working class. By the way, Plattener's family, you know, his father was a lawyer and his like grandfather, great-grandfather was like a famous architect. So, you know, he was a Marine. He never, he didn't go to college. He went to, you know, the Marines and so and so forth. But like this whole, this is true of a lot of Americans, like this whole dyed in the wool, blue collar, not blue collar. It's like everyone's family contains a lot of different kinds of people. Right. Right. Second of all, like, um,

you know, everybody was so crazy about Fetterman, Fetterman, Fetterman, and now, look how he turned out. Look how Fetterman turned out. He's a fucking, he's like, he's the new, um, who was the West Virginia guy? Like, how can I forget his name? Joe Manchin? He's a new Joe Mansion. He's just like Joe Manchin. Yeah. He's honestly a bit worse than Manchin. He's worse than Manchin. He's worse than Manchin. He's a, he's an edge lord clownish. Um, he's a, he's not a credit to the United States Senate. I would rather someone who, who, I mean, who has like this traditionalist you know the institutions of the senate like kind of shit which is its own problems within american politics but like it's just sucks it mean like just as

as a as a commentary in american politics like okay so so our choices are between a really hidebound um establishment with old too many old people that seems to be learning very little and then just not serious people. Like the populist left is just not mature enough to recruit good candidates. And you know what? Like, okay, here's another problem. Platner, okay, and I get what you're saying

about his working class affect is like, let's talk about national candidates, right? So obviously for the left wing of the Democratic Party, that's a problem. Okay, Bernie Sanders, because of his affect, because of the positions he's willing to take, because, you know, he's well liked by a lot of people with a lot of different politics is someone who's a really great national figure.

Then the people who he has coming up behind him are a little bit more conventionally progressive and may not have national appeal. I mean, they may have national appeal among left wingers. AOC, I like her. Zora Mamdani, I like him. and the question now becomes what you know they're becoming national figures are they popular national figures i don't know so platner you know maybe will be like well you know maybe the the white masculinity thing that might have a wider popular national appeal less east coast less

new york where we're you know not so aOC being a Hispanic woman doesn't bother us and mom donnie being a Muslim guy doesn't really bother us like you know like you know not to say that people in other places are consciously bigoted, but like, it could be, yeah, could hold back their national appeal. But so I'm just saying like the problem for the Sanders wing is like there's no second Bernie Sanders, right? This guy is not him, obviously. So like, you know, so that's a, that's a succession issue or like continuing the kind of left progressive tradition from that side. And like, okay, Sherrod Brown lost his election, right? You know, who, who, who's, who's really out there. And, like, so it's, like, yes, the Democratic establishment is super weak,

and I get the time is now to kind of launch a Tea Party against it and, like, to get some genuinely left candidates. And left candidates that have, what Bernie is able to do is he can rally liberal Democrat, like, everyone who's, like, on the far left of the Democratic Party is going to be like, I like Bernie Sanders for the most part, right? But what he can also do is get people from the kind of disaffected center, let's say, who are like, I don't like either party, but this guy is a straight shooter. So that makes him like a really powerful candidate on a national level, right, and makes him a national figure.

And why he's one of the most popular people in the country, even though he's to the left of everybody. And no one has quite replicated that formula. And Platner, the reason why people were excited about Platner, I mean, was like, oh, like, he might be able to do that trick. He might be able to do that trick. And it's like, I don't think so. Yeah.

I just don't think so. So, so I think he's too, he's too much of a clown, dude. And like, it's, it sucks. I mean, I want, I want there to be that, that politics to succeed. But I just don't believe in this guy. And like, and Federman was supposed to do that trick too. And then everybody, look, you know, a lot of people backed him, you know, were people with very strong pro-Palestine commitments,

and the guy turned out to be the worst on that issue, the worst. So, you know, I don't know. Like the, and you don't know, like, what is the Nazi tattoo going to, okay, let's say Graham Platner survives all this. And let's say he even wins an election. What does the Nazi tattoo constrain him from doing? Is he going to have to be quieter on Palestine now? Yeah, yeah.

Is he going to have, so like, yeah. Anyway, I mean, this gets to, like, a couple things I've been thinking about or even speaking, especially on this question of a bench and a successor. So one of the, one of the, I think, rightful critiques of, you might say, the identity forward part of the Democratic Party. I think this is often overstated, like the extent to which is the identity for, but to the sense of which it is, one of the, one of the legitimate critiques is politics can either be

a game of identity, affinity, or a game of winning, right? And just because someone appeals to you on the level of identity doesn't mean that they're equipped to win an election and doesn't mean that they're going to be reliable allies once in office. And this is this is thrown at the identity forward part of the Democratic coalition. But it applies to everyone. It's a truism for everyone. And I think that what Fetterman is an example of is the very real danger of identity affinity as your basis for deciding. Imagine if it was black. Yeah. I mean, the same goes, I mean, frankly, the same goes for Platner, right? If Graham Platner were a black guy with a, with an NOI tattoo or like a Farrakhan tattoo or a black Hebrew israelite tattoo,

there would be there would be none of this right like there would be none of this solicitiveness we would recognize the problem which gets to the also recognize the figure as somebody people would recognize make the criticism oh you just went after him because he was like you and then he turned out to be kind of a right winger and not reliable right like you yeah he turned out to be a centrist right and the and this is why i mean at the start like i i i do think that a kind of identity affinity is explaining, I think, of a lot of the attachment to Platner. There is a, there is a, the gruff, populist, white man is an archetype in American politics. And there's a, there's like practically a yearning for that figure to exist and to be, to be young and to be

vibrant and vital, a sense that this is sort of like, this is what authentic populist politics look like, which is wrapped up, and I think a lot of not great assumptions about what constitutes someone who's working class and so on and so forth. I would also, I would also say, this is maybe me being a little mean, but it's been interesting to me to see the coalition of people who are really digging in defensive platinum here. And it is, I mean, we're podcasters. But it's like, it's like podcasters. It's like, it's, consultants, it's pundits, it's people and it's men who, in my read, feel a kind of self-consciousness about the fact that they aren't, they don't have any kind of organic connection to like the

working class, right? They feel, they feel like, you know, they feel soft. And so I think there's a kind of vicarious, by supporting this kind of candidate, by looking past these very real, I think a very real issue by looking past roughness, I can feel less soft. I can show that I, that stuff doesn't bother me. I'm not like, I'm not, I'm not like woke and, and so on and so forth. I have a lot of thoughts. Two others. One, after that, part of the defense of the tattoo is kind of like, well, who hasn't had a Nazi phase as a young man? And I find, I see. that you know you know i think it's pretty normal to expect someone not to have like any kind of you know nazi curious phase i don't i was on the same internet as a lot of a lot of people

right i don't know in my teen years in my early adult years yeah and i never was like attracted to either nazism or maybe like the black guy equivalent like being a crazy hotel right like that wasn't that wasn't like right in my like I had the wherewithal to see I mean you see that stuff and to be like this is kind of stupid I mean I was a I was an anarchist so I guess yeah but that's right everyone has like their kind of edge lordy phase but like the edge lordy phase intersecting with like actually malign ideologies that have been responsible for like you know mass death and suffering that's that's something different And in the, I think the last, the last thought I had here was, I think that this is, I think that so much of this is fighting the last war.

Yeah. I think there's an, we've talked about this. I think there's an overinterpretation of the 24 results. I think people look at 24 and say, oh, the American public loves bigotry. The American public loves Trump and Trumpism. And I just said, that's not what happened last year. Like what happened last year was people didn't like inflation. and they turn against the incumbent that presided over inflation.

And I think it's very possible and quite likely, right, that like candidates, Platner-style candidates can do very well. And when I say Platner style, I don't mean like the exact blue-collar gruffness, but I think like a real and palpable authenticity, which can take many different forms, right? Like Mom Donnie is real and palpably authentic. That's part of his appeal to a lot of voters. You can be the Tammy Baldwin in Wisconsin is palpably, authentic and people like her for it. There are lots of Trump

Baldwin voters. So what that, what that looks like varies and differs from place to place. Curtis Curtis Leewa, right? True eccentric. What that looks like varies from place to place. So I think that's a correct insight. But the notion that to win over voters that are bleeding out of your coalition, you have to sort of look past, like legitimately

troubling things, I I think that's fighting the last war. And if anything, it's not the people, you know, the critical voters did not back Trump because he was a bigot. They backed Trump often in spite of it. They said to themselves, I know he has these views. And, but I think he's going to make me rich anyway. Right.

And that's what I care about more. Yeah. Yeah, I, I mean, I, I, I, I, I pretty much totally agree with you there. I just think that it, yeah, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's a, it's, it's kind of a, it's like a mini tragedy or comedy of errors. Like, it's just like, it's the problems of the Democratic Party in nutshell. I mean, it's just like, all right, you got this fucking completely out of touch establishment and then you have a, an immature insurgency against it. Um, and in other places it's working and this, this might not be the best candidate. And like, also people, you don't have,

Like, I don't understand why people get so, like, primary campaigns bring out these insanity in people where I'm like, okay, you know, my attachment of candidates is conditional, you know, like, well, you know, let's see if, let's see if they're a good candidate through the primary process and then I'll kind of make up my decision. But people get very emotionally partisan about these people. And I'm like, I don't know anything about him, you know, I'm learning about him. Like, it's almost like the normy attitude about politics is better than the party, like, within the party, people get very partisan about their guy. And, like, a normal person's politics is like, well, I would like to see what this candidate has to say about this issue. And, like, it's just like, yeah, that's smart. Like, it's like not, not like making fantasies up about people. It's like, oh, Graham Platner, like, fits in my weird ideas about America and masculinity and what I think the future should be and, like, so on and so forth.

but just like, yeah, okay, like, I can see the argument for him as a strong candidate. I'd like to hear. Yes, and I would like to see what he's doing. And quite frankly, as, but I will say to put to push back on what we're saying, like, his polling came out today. And he's still way above Mills. Now, that can change. But, you know, like, so he might win a primary. Yeah.

Yeah. And if he can, if he can, if he can turn this around, right? Like, if he can, if he can turn this into. then he can't political advantage then that's then that is a sign that he's a good candidate right yeah yeah yeah i still find it very troubling but it's it's it's at the very least it is evidence of someone with real political talent and so you kind of have to like let the pre you have to let the process play out right you have to you have to you have to you have to let people evaluate you have to accept that there's going to be opposition i you know what what i find beyond the kind of weird

parasycial attachments that develop. Part of me is, not part of me, a big part of me, the major part of me says, you're hiring someone for a job, these people are not your friends, and you have to show discipline. And I do think that on part of the insurgent left, there's a reluctance to just show

discipline. Well, to also think about the entire political field beyond the one election that you're emotionally invested in. But, yeah. So, you have to show discipline. And if Platner can have a discipline response to this and weather it, then, you know, good for him.

And let's see if he can make it through. But this attachment to candidates as if they're your friends, as if they're anything other than a person for whom you're trying to choose and do a job. And if they can't do the job, you should abandon them for someone else. I just find very strange. It's reminiscent of the parisocial attachments that developed to, like, Ruth Bader Ginsburg, where people are like, how dare you tell Ruth Bader Ginsburg to retire? It's like, I don't, Ruth Bader Ginsburg isn't my fucking friend. I don't know that woman.

I was told exactly, and like, you're a sexist if you think that Ruth Bader Ginsburg should retire. Shut the fuck up. And like, the other thing is, the other thing is, but I got this, the reverse of that, which was, um, I said like, eh, I was just saying, like, I think the taboo on Nazi imagery is pretty reasonable. And someone said, you're a snob. And I was like, what the fuck are you talking about? Like, no, that is not, I'm not like, oh, like, it's not a question of taste. I mean, it is, but it's not a question of like, oh, well, I think that that's rather crude. It's like, no, dude,

like that represents something really horrible. It's best to keep it out of public. It's best to keep that norm in place no matter what you know if someone is like breaks a taboo in public then you can forgive them personally it's like okay remember a certain new yorker writer lost their job because they exposed themselves on a zoom call and i got into an argument with somebody who on the internet who said um that i was sex negative for saying that i didn't have a problem with they're being fired and i was like i am sorry in society in a civilized society, there is no person, there's no way you can expose yourself in the workplace and keep your job. It depends on your work, okay. But like, in an average office,

and I'm just like, there are standards of civilized behavior. There are standards of conduct. There are a standard of what's acceptable. And I understand it's not, I mean, there was a time we're having a tattoo at all would probably disqualify you from the Senate. We're not going back to that. But, you know, like, there are certain standards. I think you can say are like, okay, you know, I just don't think that a person, I don't know what's in his heart. I don't know. He seems like he might be a decent guy, but like, I'm just not, um, I don't want that guy to represent me. I don't want a guy. I don't want that person to, you know, be in a governing body of the U.S. because that, that shit just weirds me out. It gives me bad, it gives me bad vibes.

now unfortunately it could be that those standards are eroding but i don't think that's a good thing either so the whole thing sucks and like uh i don't think it's the end of the world like i don't think it's like oh we're we're going you know i don't want to make a slippery slope argument where it's like oh we're going this is a part of the road to perdition that this guy could a person with a nazi tattoo could become a united states senator like i don't want to go that far but i i definitely think that as a taboo, it's one that I'm totally fine with. And I'm sorry if that makes me an uptight, I don't know, whatever, but fuck you. Like, I'm sorry.

Like, no, if you get out my case for being, like, don't be uptight about Nazi shit. Excuse me. Do you, do you know who you're talking to? Like, that is insulting. Like, I have a right. And a lot of people have right in a certain way, every American has a right and should be upset about Nazi and should, that should trigger people. that should be upsetting and if it's not i don't think that's a good thing you know yeah yeah i mean

i mean it's okay i know i know people like oh jebel's just one of those wokes one of those one of those one of those those those those those woke i mean i yeah neither neither neither of us are no but it's it's it's not a woke also also that that that that making that conversation is the most the most right wing fucking thing that they're doing is like no that's a basic norm they keep on they keep on eating away at basic egalitarianism and basic American fundamental ideas that we took for granted by calling them woke, you know? Yeah. And they're like, no, that's not woke, dude.

That's just, that's just like normative American values. And I think a normative American value that I was raised with and I would like to see enforced is no Nazi shit. Yeah. That's it. It's a simple one. I think that's like absolutely right. the

the one of the corrosive effects of Trump I think on our just national life it has been this corrosion and erosion of these normative values of the idea that one should strive to be better

in any in any particular way so in the case of Platner and I said this on blue sky I don't I'm not here I'm not condemning the guy's soul I don't know the guy I don't think he's irredeemable. I don't think he's the worst person in the world or whatever.

I do think he showed some bad judgment. I do think he made a mistake. I do think the extent to which he kind of has had that has lived with the mistake without acknowledging it as such, without having, be making any attempt to deal with it for almost 20 years. Also, just these fucking photos of him with his fucking shirt off at bars. Like, what the fuck is this guy doing? Like, this is a moron, you know? Like, I'm sorry. And like, I'm sorry.

you're like, oh, don't be uptight. That's bro culture. Dude, come on. Like, I know, we all know people. We all hang out with guys. Like, they don't all act like fucking clowns. And, like, people are like, oh, he's working class. Dude, that's so insulting. Like, a lot of working class people have plenty of dignity. And, like, they don't fucking behave. Like, just because a guy's a working class person doesn't mean he behaves like an idiot. That's, like, fucking deeply insulting. Like, it's so, that, that defense is so dumb to me. I agree. And I, you know, I saw someone say, why can't you extend Plattner any grace? And I think one should extend Plattner grace. I'm a big fan of extending people grace. But the thing about grace is that it's a gift and gifts come with obligations, right? If you receive a gift, you should write a note to say thank you. And maybe there's now an unspoken expectation that when you get a chance, you'll give a gift to.

If not to the person who gave you one to someone else, to pass it. long. And in the same way, if someone gives you grace, then you actually have a responsibility to make it, make amends, to show recompense, to do the kinds of things that demonstrate that you understand that you've made a mistake and that you understand that you've been giving a gift to be able to move past that mistake and to do something about it. And so one thing I've been frustrated by whenever this kind of stuff comes up is the immediate, well, why don't you give grace? And it's like, happy to give grace. But like, that doesn't then mean you're entitled to what you want in the first place. Like I said, this is politics. If, if Platter is obviously

going to stay in the race. If this doesn't sink him, more power to him. Let's see what he does. But in terms of my own orientation towards the guy, I'm now like, I'm more skeptical than I was, not that I'm voting in the main primaries. Who gives a fuck what I think? But also, I'm just going to, I'm going to say, I would like to see the guy, I would like to see the guy act in ways that demonstrate that he knows he kind of fucked up. That's all. Yeah. And if, and that's not unreasonable, right?

That's not being a hall monitor. That's not being a scold. That's, that's saying, I expect this guy to behave like an adult and behave like a member of society. A member of society who wants a public trust. A member of society who wants to represent other people, which comes. comes with even higher standards. And I will say, this is me being my kind of old-fashioned self here. The extent to which so many people in political media seem to see these things

as unnecessary, as something you can just discard, really disturbs me. It really disturbs. I mean, it's part, I mean, I would say, you know, not to, this isn't, this isn't going out in the main feed. I can't be too spicy. If you sign up for the Patreon, you get me being much more forthright. I do think that there's, that there's just like a lot of, a lot of people who are like not particularly emotionally immature and engage in all this stuff and just don't know how to, don't know how to, um, take like a measured approach to, well, to be thoughtful. Yeah. Right. To be thoughtful in anyway. way about politics as a as a you know as a process that involves building a consensus or persuading

people who are not exactly identical to you right and be like well i don't know how that's going to play with these voters and you know you have to be aware of their sensitivities and also just like also just like what it does to your political operations you know the whole party's abilities like are you strengthening the party or are you weakening it? You know, like, are you a net positive for your party? And Federman turned out to be a net negative for the Democratic Party if we wanted to go the direction that a lot of people did because people fixated on shallow things. Right.

With him. They said they like the way, oh, he's going to be, they think that if this guy looks a certain way, it's a silver bullet to defeat Trump. And I got to tell you guys, this is not, you know, like. Trump is a ostensibly a billionaire. He's a rich guy, but he comes off as populist. And he doesn't, I mean, he has a kind of, you know, like, Queens accent. Okay, like there's something kind of like salt of the earth about that.

And I've always argued that Bernie, his New York accent, helps him a lot. But like, people who have an authenticity or come off as authentic or are just like, oh, that's an interesting character, don't have like a necessarily the most, you know, obvious class signifiers attach to them. Like the greatest friend of the working man we've ever had, FDR, was a total, total aristocrat who smoked cigarettes with a cigarette holder and drank martinis. I mean, that wouldn't fly today. That's very old-fashioned at this point.

But like, you know, and he owned it. He didn't pretend that he wasn't, you know? He didn't try to act like he wasn't. He didn't fake it. just like, yep, I grew up like that. That's who I am. And that's just, I'm just not going to pretend that I'm not that person. And it didn't make him unpopular. And he didn't also, I mean, early in his career, I think he had a little trouble kind of like putting a lid on this, on the snobby behavior. But then he learned how to be like, no, I'm a person. I'm like a really

sunny, great temperament, fun person that people just gravitate to. And it doesn't matter if I'm like look like an aristocrat you know so so to that point and we should wrap up soon but this is this is actually a great place to end because it gets to something we've talked about a bunch in previous episodes and on both this and the other podcast FDR kind of discovered this about himself and figured how to use it through campaigning through being on the road through interacting with people. They're being part of a party organization. They're doing work for other people in that party organization, right? Like, but they're doing kind of the grunt work of politics for a young Franklin Roosevelt figure it out how to appeal to people, how to turn his

aristocratic upbringing and disposition into a political asset and not something that can be used against him. And I think one of the, the problem I think Democrats face right now is that the political parties, bears and the Republicans, are not parties in any meaningful sense. They're just containers for consultants and media personalities who have no, I mean, they're right, who have no organic connection to ordinary people or to grunt political work, right? And so everyone's trying to figure out, how can we appeal to the hogs? That's the quote. How can we appeal to the hogs?

This is, I mean, it's true on the other side, J.D. Vance, how can I appeal to the hogs? Yeah, it's a very condescending politics. And there's no process that exists for coming to that answer in a natural and organic way. Right. Yeah. And coming to that answer through, oh, I have spent the last five years, right? Like, you know, in state houses, at the state level, you know, running a party organization. having to deliver services to people who are connected to the party. And I've discovered this about what kind of appeals to people and what doesn't.

What, what, what, yeah. And so everyone's just trying to figure out a formula. You know, the paper I work for ran a big editorial. And it's all about a formula. Oh, this is the formula that will work. This is the identity formula that will work. And there's, I think, a real unwillingness to do basically like qualitative work. to figure this out through just trying to do it.

And I would say that it's no accident that the unwillingness to try to figure out what's going to appeal to people through just ordinary politics coincides with the rise of a commentary class and a consulting class that thinks you can turn politics into a spreadsheet. Yeah. Yeah. I think you're absolutely. I mean, I'm totally. with you. You know it. So yeah. Yeah. I mean, I mean, we didn't have time, but, but the point I wanted to make was, um, the fact that the ACA subsidies are becoming such a huge political issue also shows that some of the normal politics, issue based politics, and I, I was wrong about this. I have to admit it of years past still really matter to people and can break party, and people break party

ranks. So like, you know, that's another thing to think about. Right. Right. all right that's this week's episode of unclear and present politics we always say we're going to try to go short with these but you know there's always a lot to talk about get going we just you know we can do this all day uh we could um thank you guys for listening and we'll see you next time and if you are joining us from the main feed uh consider this a preview like you said the top and throw us a patreon subscription if you want to hear this every week talk see you later. Thank you.

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