Uncover - S1 "Escaping NXIVM" E6: The Defence

Episode Date: September 13, 2018

Josh speaks to one of Keith Raniere's lawyers, Marc Agnifilo, and hears a different point of view on NXIVM and DOS. For transcripts of this series, please visit: https://www.cbc.ca/radio/uncover/uncover-season-1-escaping-nxivm-transcripts-listen-1.4675949

On an evening in early December 2018, the young CEO of a cryptocurrency exchange reportedly dies while on his honeymoon in India. This death is not announced to customers for another month. And when they're told Gerald Cotton is the only person to hold the passwords to their funds, conspiracy theories grow, leaving some to wonder, could Gerald Cotton still be alive? Honeymoon, moving the body, all the missing money. It was like, but what happened? A Death in Cryptoland. Available now on CBC Listen and everywhere you get your podcasts.

This is a CBC Podcast. Can I get you to start off by just by introducing yourself? What's your name and your role in this specific case? Sure. My name is Mark Agnifilo. I'm the lead attorney for Keith Ranieri. I've been a lawyer for 28 years. My practice is based in Manhattan, but this is a case out of Brooklyn. It's scheduled to go to trial this coming January. Can I ask you why you agreed to do this interview? Can I ask you why you agreed to do this interview? I just thought that it's very easy in matters like this to have everyone talking about one viewpoint and not another viewpoint.

I mean, I think that, you know, the government's viewpoint is very clear. I think it's errant, and I think it's not the whole picture, but it's very clear that this is essentially, you know, a sex cult and that there's sex trafficking. And my concern in matters like this is that there is another viewpoint. I'm Josh Bloch. This is Escaping NXIVM from CBC Podcasts Uncover. Chapter 6. The Defense. Since the start of this investigation, my questions for Keith have been piling up.

I've wanted to hear his perspective on all kinds of things. What does he think of the allegation that he's the head of a cult? Was he running DOS or wasn't he? What was DOS for? And why did membership involve branding his initials on the women who joined? The problem was reaching him, or anyone from his inner circle. My producer Anita tried to contact Keith. The mailbox is full and cannot accept any messages at this time. Goodbye. The voicemail on his personal cell phone didn't take messages. Emails were never answered.

She tried Allison Mack. Hey, this is Allison's cell phone. Leave a message and I'll get back to you as soon as I can. Have a beautiful day. Nancy and Lauren Salzman. Can you get a hold of me in a hurry? The best way is to send a text. Sarah and Claire Bronfman, and others close to Keith.

Hello, this is a message for Karen Unterreiner. She left voicemails, sent emails, texts, and even sent a courier. We went to Clifton Park, where Keith and his clan lived. Most of them weren't there or wouldn't talk to us. Hi. Yeah, I'm here. Is this the Executive Success Program? Who are you? It turned out we weren't the only people trying to find Keith. And we begin with an update on a Daily Mail TV exclusive.

NXIVM leader arrested. He was arrested in Puerto Vallarta, Mexico, after a month-long search by the FBI. He was found at a $10,000-a-week luxury villa. In March 2018, Keith was arrested in Mexico. He was staying with several members of his harem. Authorities say he used his power to create a master-slave dynamic. In Brooklyn, we will, of course, be following this very closely.

The FBI shipped him back to New York to face charges of sex trafficking and forced labor. I called Sarah the next morning. Hello. It's a beautiful day in the neighborhood of you, a day to be a neighbor. Or to be mine. Did you wake up with a big smile on your face? After that, NXIVM seemed to fall apart, faster than you can say executive success program. Right now, the FBI are raiding Nancy's house in Knoxwood is being raided as we speak. Right now, the FBI are raiding Nancy's home.

Oh, there's TV there, too. Oh, my God! Within a couple of weeks, Allison Mack was arrested and also charged with sex trafficking and forced labor. Dude, it's pretty crazy how fast this is unraveling. It is unraveling so fucking fast. And then in the middle of the workday at the end of July, we learned about more arrests. Four more people have been arrested in connection to the alleged sex cult NXIVM, including an heiress to the Seagram's Liquor Force. Claire Bronfman.

Nancy Salzman. We have identity theft, harboring of aliens for financial gain, extortion, forced labor, sex trafficking, money laundering, wire fraud, and obstruction of justice. It really feels like this has been taken up to another level. Nancy's daughter Lauren is also arrested. Sarah's former best friend, who officiated at her wedding, who brought Sarah into DOS and led the branding ceremony.

I'm guessing of all the people arrested, she's the one that you were closest with. Oh, it's such a weird mixture of feelings, Josh. It's like, you know, vindication and sadness all rolled into one. Like, do I feel badly for her? Yeah. Do I think she deserves it? Yeah. Along with Keith and Allison Mack, they're all accused of racketeering conspiracy. They all plead not guilty.

They arrested Keith, and it's like this, and it doesn't feel like it can get crazier. And now it's like, well, they've just arrested Claire, Nancy, and Lauren. It's huge. It's huge. As the FBI digs deeper into NXIVM, it seems less and less likely that we'll hear from anyone inside. Can you impress with an associate? How can I help you?

Hi, I'd like to speak with Mark Agnifilo, please. But then, Anita gets through to Keith's lawyer, Mark Agnifilo. I haven't let Keith speak to anybody. I'm happy to speak to you on Keith's behalf as his lawyer. And I can, you know, I can speak to you fairly openly. You know, I can't imagine that you'd ask me a question that I wouldn't answer or that I couldn't answer. Hmm. Hmm. Okay. I don't think.

All right. I'm trying to think if I could think of a question that I wouldn't answer. I mean, I don't know. He speaks to me at the beginning of August from our studio in Manhattan. Can you tell me about what was the last time that you saw Keith? I saw Keith on Friday. I'm probably seeing him again later today. I see him about four times a week. I'm probably seeing him again later today. I see him about four times a week. He's in a maximum security facility in Brooklyn called the Metropolitan Detention Center, which is essentially a pretrial facility for the most part. It's where people wait until they have their

trial. But these pretrial facilities are all maximum security facilities. And that's what this prison is. So it's very harsh detention conditions. He doesn't go outside. And I think it's important for him to just kind of keep his mind sharp. And also for me, as his lawyer, to learn as much about the case as I can. I saw him Friday, and I'm seeing him again this afternoon. And how would you describe his state of mind right now? He's very engaged. He's very engaged in his defense. He's very smart. He studies a great deal. He has a lot of ideas about his case. He's adamant about his innocence.

And I think that's part of what animates him, you know, to be as energetic about his defense as he's been. He's like a font of ideas. I mean, I try to, I would love to spend more time with him, but I have other things I need to do on his case. So I try to keep my, my visits to two or three hours, which seems like a lot of time, but it never seems to be enough time with him. You know, we're always in the middle of a sentence and he's in the middle of this list of things that he wants to tell me about. And I'm like, listen, Keith, I really, I have to go. There are other things on your case I have to go and do. I have to go. There are other things on your case I have to go and do. And it seems there's never enough time, even though I spend a lot of time with him, because he's just a very dynamic person. He's a real thinker. Well, he in fact claims to be one of the smartest men in the world. I wondered, did you find that? It's funny. I defended Martin Shkreli. I don't know if he ever kind of got up to Canada, but he was the so-called farmer bro guy, and he was a very smart guy too. So this is probably my 10th client who is the smartest man in the world. And so he's smart. He's up there. He's a perennial smart guy. Smartest in the world? I don't know. There's a lot of smart guys in the world. I don't know that I'm one of them, but I've certainly met a lot. There's a lot of smart guys in the world. I don't know that I'm one of them, but I've certainly met a lot. It strikes me that his incarceration, I guess for anyone to be incarcerated, is radically different than where you have last come from.

What's your impression of how he is handling this shift from the life he was living for so many years to now being incarcerated and confined? Yeah, it's a good question. I mean, I think especially with Keith, Keith would walk 15 miles, 15 to 20 miles a day when he was living in Clifton Park, you know, in the woods, through the, you know, down hiking trails and on the streets. And so it's very different. One of the things that's sort of amazing is he's found a way to continue to walk 15 to 20 miles a day. And what he's done is he's sort of paced out a circle. And by using geometry, and I'm not saying this makes him the smartest man in the world, but he doesn't know how to do geometry. He was able to determine the circumference of the circle. And he's able to walk 15 or 20 miles a day around a fairly small circle. So yeah, life has changed. Once he was walking through the woods and on hiking paths and in these beautiful natural environments,

and now he's walking literally in a circle in a maximum security facility. Well, so the FBI describes NXIVM as a criminal enterprise. And it says that Keith and other NXIVM leaders have used the self-help program to coerce people and to manipulate them in order to enrich themselves. And I wonder what your response is to that. I don't think that's true. And I don't think that that will be proven true at a trial. I think the government's position is a tricky one. And I'll tell you why. I think the government's position is a tricky one, and I'll tell you why. You know, because everyone here is not only an adult.

They're well-to-do adults. They're adults that, for the most part, are educated. They're smart. They have financial opportunity. They're successful economically. And they have choices. You know, these are not poor, put-upon people, you know, who are desperate for a better life and will make choices against their self-interest. These are actresses and models and successful people and business people, people who have successful businesses and have aspirations.

And these are choices. You know, I open adult knowing voluntary choices that these people are making. And for the government to just sort of say, well, you know, they're brainwashed. You know, they're effectively brainwashed. That's really what the government is saying is that all of these successful adults have essentially been brainwashed and they're not acting in their own true self-interest. And I just don't think – I don't think there's such thing as brainwashing. I think to the extent that we once thought there might be brainwashing, it went out with the Cold War. It's like a relic of the 70s. I mean, it just doesn't exist. But is it, I mean, are people that are educated and have means immune from being manipulated or

coerced? I mean, brainwashing aside. Right. You know, I suppose everybody can be manipulated or coerced, but now let's look at really what they're saying is going on. It's a self-help group. It's a group that preaches really, I think, a pretty fundamental idea the way I've come to understand it, which is this, that there are no victims. Well, the ironic part about this case is that the NXIVM philosophy,

and maybe I'm dumbing it down too much, is that just take victimhood out of the equation. Everything in your life is something that you chose. I mean, I'm talking about people who live in first world countries who have choices and economic opportunity. If it's in your life, it's because you chose it. You know, if you don't like your marriage, you chose your wife. You're not a victim. And if you take victimization out of the mix of normal human interrelationships and you take full responsibility for them, your life is better. Your ethics are stronger and you become happier. And that's the linkage between one owns personal

ethics and one's own happiness. To the extent that there's any novelty in the NXIVM philosophy, that's what I understand it to be. And I think that's a great idea. And people are now saying, well, I was manipulated. Well, how? I mean, to sort of say that i was exposed to these concepts and somehow i was manipulated or coerced man you're gonna have to prove that to me because i don't see it what i do see is i see a lot of people who broke away from this group who were once very attached to this group who were once leaders in this group who were once teaching the stuff that they're now saying they were manipulated by. And now they're angry.

I think part of what the evidence is going to show is some of these people who broke away from NXIVM wanted to start a version of it themselves. They hacked into the NXIVM computers. They tried to take the client data. They tried to take other information because they wanted to go off and do this alone. They didn't want Keith to be the head of it. They wanted to be the head of it. And I think that's going to be a fascinating part of the trial. Can you tell me what Keith's role was in the company more generally? So Keith is, I guess, like the philosophical head. He's not really a business person. He doesn't have a business mind. He doesn't have

business acumen. He's much more, this is going to sound sort of pedantic, but he's much more of like a philosopher. He's a thinker. He's a big thinker. And so he gives intellectual and I guess philosophical content to the program. But he doesn't handle the money. He doesn't really do the enrolling. So that's funny. I see this myself quite frankly. I mean I'll sit down with Keith and I'll have a whole list of things I want to talk to him about and very practical things, things that I really need done.

And Keith will be off on something. You know, he wants to know why certain things are being done in the case. And in a sense, it's he really doesn't have an appreciation for the fact that his lawyers there talk about these immediate practical sort of pedantic things. He's like, well, you know, why do prosecutors do this? And is the system really better or worse because it does this instead of this? And I'm like, Keith, you realize we're burning time talking about these theoretical things when I have something immediate and practical I want to discuss with you. And he doesn't care. You know, he's that's the level he's on. He's very sort of above the weeds. few months. And she's told me about her feeling of being deceived when she found out that this secret women's group that she had been, that she had joined called DOS. She found out, she says, it was actually run by Keith Raniere. And she also found out, she says, that Keith Raniere's initials were on her body, that she had gotten a brand, she was told it was going to be something else,

and then discovers his initials. I guess I want to ask you, first of all, are those Keith Raniere's initials on Sarah's body? I've seen the same image that people have. It looks like there's a K and an R, if you look at it sort of sideways. So I can't say that it isn't. I mean, it appears to be. looks like there's a K and an R if you look at it, you know, sort of sideways. So, you know, I can't say that it isn't. I mean, it appears it appears to be.

Was Keith aware? I mean, is that intentional? You know, I don't know that it was intentional. I think at some point, I think he did become aware. You know, and I think that it was like sort of a – I don't know, an acknowledgment that Keith's philosophy sort of inspired Das. But Keith is not the leader of Das. Das doesn't really have a leader in that sense. It's not a corporate structure that way. And so I know – I don't begrudge Sarah Edmondson from feeling deceived, however she feels that she was deceived. But if she feels that she was deceived because, you know, this is some corporate type structure with Keith as the head, I don't think she really was deceived because that's just not the case.

In court filings, the FBI included alleged electronic communications between Keith Raniere and a DOS slave. And Keith describes himself as a grandmaster in a secret growing organization where women want to be branded with his monogram. What do you make of the FBI's, the evidence that they've released so far about this electronic communication? Well, so let's break it down. I think it's very clear that many women, not all of them, but many women in DOS were branded themselves. And I think that's the term we have to kind of stick to. They weren't branded. They branded themselves. They knew it was going to happen. It happened with Sarah Edmondson. I mean, I read something where Sarah Edmondson said she didn't know she was going to

be branded. I don't think she can maintain that account. She knew she was going to be branded. They all knew they're going to be branded. So everyone was branded voluntarily, knowingly, with their eyes open, knowing precisely what was going to happen. To the extent that anyone didn't know they were being branded with what seems to be Keith Raniere's initials, that seems to be a different story. And if that's the nature of the problem, I welcome that problem, that I knew I was going to be branded, I wanted to be branded, I planned to being branded, but I didn't know that it was going to be Keith Raniere's initials. I'm not quite sure how that turns into a felony. I mean, it's just not.

And I think what's a great irony, and I think really where sort of the rubber meets the road in this entire case, is I think the government's position has elements of sexism in it. There are men in the United States who join fraternities and get branded. A lot of them are athletes. We see these tremendous brands on their muscular arms when they're during football games and during other sporting activities. And we don't think anything of the fact that big, strong athletic men brand themselves. Also, men join secret groups. The Masons are a secret group. There are scores of secret groups from Harvard and Yale and all these elevated educational institutions, but it's men, so we don't think anything of it. Women want to be in a secret group and want to be branded.

And all of a sudden, we're very quick to say, oh, poor dears, they must be victims. Because no right-thinking, free-willed woman would ever want that for herself. And I think that's sexist. And I think the government is playing into a sexist agenda. Men do these things, we call them Marines. Women do these things, we call them victims. And I think that's offensive. things, we call them victims. And I think that's offensive. In 2017, it felt like drugs were everywhere in the news. So I started a podcast called On Drugs. We covered a lot of ground over two seasons, but there are still so many more stories to tell. I'm Jeff Turner, and I'm back with season three of On Drugs. And this time, it's going to get personal. I don't know who Sober Jeff is. I don't even know if I like that guy. On Drugs is available now wherever you get your podcasts.

I take your point about the desire of women to get branded and if that's consensual, no big deal. But the FBI, the electronic communications that they included in their indictment from Keith to a DAW slave said that he claimed to be in the email, it said he claimed to be a grandmaster, and he was part of this secret growing organization. So in fact, you know, their claim is that this wasn't a woman's only group. It wasn't about women's self empowerment, he's sitting at the top of it. Like, what's the response to this communication of Keith actually claiming to be running this thing? He's not. I mean, the fact is he's not doing anything to run it. I mean, the women are running it. You know, the women are doing the brands the way they want to do the

brands. Keith never told anybody what to do. You know, Keith never told Sarah Edmondson what to do. Keith never told anybody in DOS what to do. And I've spoken to about a dozen women in DOS, and they've each told me it's the greatest thing they ever did. It's the one thing that they felt gave their life greater content and greater happiness, gave them greater happiness and greater meaning. gave them greater happiness and greater meaning. And what I'm sort of insulted by is that the federal government would come in and basically take this and say, no, no, you're actually a victim. You think this is good for you. You think you were happy. You think this gave you greater content. But we know better because after all, we're the United States government and we've been knowing better for 220 years. And that's off limits to, and we're not going to let you do it. Nonsense.

One of the requirements of women to join DOS was to hand over collateral, nude photos, videos, false confessions. How much of that collateral did Keith see, or how much of it went to Keith? that collateral did Keith see or how much of it went to Keith? I believe some of it went to Keith. I think most of it was retained by the, you know, the master, the woman master who brought the person in. And so I think for the most part, you know, Keith did not see the vast majority of it. But collateral is a very common principle in NXIVM. I mean, I was talking to a gentleman last week who, you know, was a little not fat, but he's a little on the heavy side. And his personal goal is he wanted to lose weight. And he was a musician. He was a guitar player. And he said, I'm going to lose this amount of weight.

And if I don't lose it, I'm going to give you my guitar. That was his version of collateral. And it's a way of putting something behind a promise. And the whole kind of concept of behind NXIVM is promises matter. It's not just words. And I think we all fall into that. I promise I'm going to stop smoking. I promise I'm going to take better care.

I'm going to lose weight. I'm going to be a better father. I'm going to be a better husband. Whatever these promises are, you know, and we break them and we break them because we're human and we're weak. And what NXIVM tries to say is no, no, no. If you made a promise, actually do the things you need to do to keep it because that's how you're going to get self-esteem and that's how you're going to be happier. But I've heard from Sarah and seen in the FBI indictment that some women in DOS did say they feared that their collateral would be released if they didn't want to be a part of the organization anymore or didn't want to abide by certain instructions that were given to them. Isn't that legally problematic to hold someone's collateral against them, even if they've voluntarily given

it over initially? I don't think it's extortion. And first of all, I think it's important to know, I mean, no collateral was ever released, ever. Not one time. You know, women left DOS, Ever. Not one time. You know, women, women left DOS, women didn't keep the DOS secrets and no collateral was ever released. And the government doesn't allege otherwise. And I don't think any member of DOS alleges otherwise. To your point of whether it's problematic, you know, it's a it's a little edgy. I mean, I will I will give you that, you know, and that's true. It's a little edgy. But I think it's there for a reason. The women of DOS wanted that to be part of the equation. And they saw meaning in thatOS. I'm in DOS for life. DOS views this as a lifetime commitment. I am your sisters for life. That is my commitment. And I'm backing it up with collateral. That could be released if I stop being your sisters for life or if I divulge the secrets of DOS. It's a little edgy, but, you know, that's what they wanted. Who did create DOS? So DOS was created. So there are eight original women in DOS, who I'm not going to name on the air. DOS was created because one of those women, uh, was engaging in self-harm, um, cutting herself. And I think this person had a conversation with Keith where Keith said, you have to make me a

commitment that you're never going to do that again because I'm afraid you could cut yourself too deeply and something horrible will happen. And I think the response was, I can't make that commitment to you because you're not sufficiently important to me that I'll make this commitment to you. And I think the idea was, well, what is there out there that's sufficiently important to you that you would make this commitment to that thing or that person. And I think DOS formed around that event. And I think through the years, it's been very attractive to women, young women, who I think have some measure of struggle. You know, women who struggle, struggle with happiness, struggle with content in their life. I mean, the women that I've met in DOS who've talked to me about DOS have been very

serious people. They've been very strong people. And they've been people who I think are having some measure of struggle internally. And for whatever reason, DOS spoke to them. The FBI says that Keith was using DOS to compel women to have sex with him. What does Keith say about that? Absolutely false. 100% false. I mean, Keith has a unique sex life he has

had multiple partners his entire life they know about each other and they're okay with it I think most of the time not all the time, most of the time but he makes no bones about it, this is who he is

and women choose to be intimate with Keith or not with that knowledge. And he doesn't need DOS to have sex with women. I think there was no shortage of women in the Clifton Park area who were willing to, you know, be intimate with Keith Ranieri. So I, it's just, it's just false. I think it's, it's just a, you know, a weird sense of self-importance. I think that some of these women are putting on DOS and say, oh, I was in this because Keith wanted to have sex with me. You know, listen, I've seen text messages. I've seen emails, you know, Keith, Keith doesn't need to create an organization for these women to to want to be

close to him trust me but were women in DOS being instructed whether whether or not by him were they being instructed to have sex with him no not that I know of not that I've seen I mean I think you know a lot of these women knew Keith and you know I think some of these women had relationships with Keith you know some a very small of these women had relationships with Keith. You know, some, a very small percentage. If there are 150 women in DOS, we're talking about a handful, you know, five or six. So, you know, the government's contending that this is a sex cult where all of the women were going to have sex with Keith. You know, I mean, we're probably somewhere around 2% or 3% of everybody in DOS who had any kind of intimate relationship with Keith. Some women claim that sex with Keith was proposed as part of the personal growth that they were engaged in.

That there was kind of a proposition that it could be empowering to have sex with Keith. What has Keith told you about that? So I haven't heard about it from Keith. What has Keith told you about that? So I haven't heard about it from Keith, but what I've heard from some other people is that some of the women who were in DOS felt that they had issues with intimacy during sex. They didn't have issues with sex, but there was not the element of intimacy in the sex that they were having. I've heard this from two different people. And that they felt that they could be intimate with Keith. Now, ironically, neither of these people had sex with Keith.

Because you can get intimacy from sex or you could get intimacy without having sex. And the issue for them was intimacy, not sex. To the extent that some of these women, though, said they had issues with intimacy, that is what Keith sort of does. You know, Keith is about that. Keith is about human connection. You know, Keith is about, you know, I mean, I say jokingly, but it's only half a joke. You know, this is more of a cuddle cult than it is a sex cult. You know, Keith would go on long walks with these women. He'd hold hands with these women. He would lay down in a bed and, you know, she would put her

hand on Keith's heart and he would put his hand on her heart. And that is the totality of the conduct. You know, so how this got transformed into a sex cult, I'll never know. And yet the FBI alleges that there are, in fact, several women who were in DOS who said they were forced or compelled because of collateral. They had handed over collateral to have some kind of sexual encounter with Keith. Are you suggesting that those women are lying? Yes. I'm saying they're lying. If they're saying that they were coerced to have sex with Keith, I'm saying they're lying.

Because the instruction wasn't there or because the collateral doesn't count as a form of coercion? They didn't have sex or not have sex with Keith because of the collateral. We have text messages. I mean, I know Keith because of the collateral. We have text messages. I mean, I know who you're talking about. We have text messages. It's preposterous. You know, these women wanted to be with Keith. There's no talk in the text message about collateral.

We have pages and pages and pages of text messages. What do they say? What do the text messages say? What do they say? What do the text messages say? They basically are two people in a very, you know, close, consensual, open relationship. I mean, it's the way a boyfriend and a girlfriend would talk if they had a good relationship and were dating for six months. You know, it's just like that. So is DOS still running? The people that you talk to that speak positively of DOS, about DOS, is it still operating? Yeah. Oh, yeah.

And what's your sense? Do you have a sense of how big it is? I don't anymore. I mean, I think everything's sort of like a little slower and a little sort of frozen. But the people that I've spoken to in DOS are saying, no, I'm in DOS for my life. It's a lifetime commitment that I take very seriously. Das? Or I said, no, I'm in Das for my life. It's a lifetime commitment that I take very seriously. And I think the reason the lifetime commitment is important is the idea that if you need to speak to one of your Das sisters, they are there. They have not backed out. You can count on them forever. And in a time when I think people are worried about forever, you know, things change.

Everything changes. We live in a society that changes rapidly. I think the forever concept really is important. That is money in the bank to you. And that goes a long way. And I think what the women in DOS are grieving is that the government has come in and is trying to – I mean a force no less powerful than the United States Department of Justice is coming in and trying to tear apart those friendships. What do you think is at stake in this case? in this case?

A great thing. The government wants to give Keith Raniere life in prison. Life in prison. They want life. That's what they think a fair resolution of this case would be, that he would get life in prison for this. And so for Keith, everything. I mean, his very livelihood, his life is at stake.

People have been calling Sarah Edmondson a victim and a whistleblower and a hero around this case. And I wondered how you would describe her. I've never met her, so I'm not going to use labels. I think heroes, you know, there aren't that many heroes in the world that we can point to. I think it's great if she considers herself one. But I think at the end of the day, she was a very important member of this organization. She was a very important member of DOS. She was an enthusiastic member of DOS. Many, many people will say that. And her life went in a different direction. And I wish her well in her new life.

I mean, people, you know, so the betrayal that sort of like Sarah describes is described by people of Sarah. You know, she was my friend. We were close. We shared these things. You know, we did all these things together. We had these deep conversations together. How dare she say these things now? It's not true. And she's saying them to be hurtful. And she was my friend. So it kind of goes both ways, for whatever that's worth. So you mean people that are still part of DOS are still – Absolutely.

Feel betrayed by her? A hundred percent. And why? Because from their perception, she's intentionally saying false things to hurt them that they believe she knows is false. Do they have a guess at why she would do that? They have theories, yeah. But they're all – they're personal. That has to do with her marriage that I'm not going to get into because it's not my place.

Very private, personal perceptions. I mean these are people who know her and know Nippy. I mean – and know them both. And the way that relationships demise, people have perceptions as to what happened. And people have perceptions about Sarah and her husband. Is this going to come out in the trial? If she testifies, yeah. And I expect she will.

Can I ask you who is paying your bills? Sure. There's a defense fund. I've said this in court. It's an irrevocable trust. And the trust is paying, you can't see my quotation marks, reasonable defense expenses. The trust is set up by who? And I don't have visibility. I mean, I don't have visibility. Listen, I mean, if you put a gun to my head, who do I think has put a lot of the money into the trust?

You know, we all know who the answer might be. But do I know? I have no visibility into that whatsoever. You're talking about Claire the Bronfman. You are. You know, I mean, you know, but there could be others too. You know, I think there are multiple participants. I don't know if anyone is participating, you know, but there could be others, too. You know, I think there are multiple participants. I don't know if anyone is participating, you know, to that extent.

But honestly, I have no inside knowledge whatsoever. You know, I just I know there's a trustee. We submit bills and hopefully the trustee will continue paying the bills or else I'll do this pro bono and probably get fired. Mark, thank you so much. Sure. Thank you. All right. All right. Bye-bye. Take care now. Next time, on the final chapter of Escaping NXIVM. I didn't dupe anybody.

I didn't trick anyone. You ever get caught in a riptide? You think you come up for air and you think you're fine that the wave hits you again? What about the money that you made through the organization? Do you feel like you're entitled to keep that money? Do I feel entitled? Had I been one more bit angry, I may have pushed her down the stairs. And it was so scary. One of the hardest moments of being your mom that I've ever experienced. You're totally allowed to talk about your experience. Well, I do feel nervous

about talking about it. Did you think it was a cult when she was inside? Yes, I did. I did. Escaping NXIVM is produced and written by Kathleen Goldhar, Anita Elash, me, Josh Bloch, and Mika Anderson, who is also our audio producer. Heather Evans is our senior producer,

and Arif Noorani is the executive producer. If you want to discuss this story with others and get the latest updates, become part of our online community by joining the Uncover Escaping NXIVM Facebook group or following us on Twitter at Uncover CBC. Get the series for free wherever you get your podcasts. We're at cbc.ca slash uncover.