Uncover - S1 "Escaping NXIVM" E7: The Reckoning

Episode Date: September 12, 2018

Sarah faces criticism about her role in NXIVM and tries to come to terms with the 12 years she spent as a high-level member of the group. For transcripts of this series, please visit: https://www.cbc.ca/radio/uncover/uncover-season-1-escaping-nxivm-transcripts-listen-1.4675949

Hi, I'm Caitlin Prest, and I am here in your ear to tell you about a very incredible show called Asking For It. Asking For It is a darkly comedic series that follows a queer femme singer whose herstory of violence finds her no matter how many times she runs away. It has an original soundtrack, and it'll make you laugh, cry, and feel a little bit less alone. Asking for it. Subscribe now. This is a CBC Podcast. Previously on Escaping NXIVM I was like, there's an A&M in here. Keith never told Sarah Edmondson what to do.

She was like, oh my God, and then she turned her head to the side and she saw the K. And then the R. So the betrayal that Sarah described is described by people of Sarah. I'm scared at this point. Getting out's not going to be easy. There's a lot of embarrassment, a lot of regret, a lot of shame that I missed the red flags. Are you suggesting that those women are lying? Yes. Oh, it's such a weird mixture of feelings.

Vindication and sadness all rolled into one. It is unraveling so fucking fast. I'm Josh Bloch. This is Escaping NXIVM from CBC Podcasts Uncover. Chapter 7. The Reckoning. Tinkle, tinkle, little star How I wonder what you are Oh, so I Tinkle, tinkle, little star It's Saturday morning.

Sarah and Nippy invite me over for a pancake breakfast with their son at their condo in Vancouver. Blueberry pancakes and smoothies. And singing. I wonder what you want. Yeah! Nicely done! Sarah and Nippy didn't have time for this kind of thing when they were in NXIVM.

Though even on a lazy Saturday, there's still a kind of manic energy. Sarah keeps looking at her wrist as texts and emails and phone calls come in on her Apple Watch. It's on a fancy gold strap given to her by Nancy Salzman. I can't imagine she's on the phone more in her NXIVM days than she is today. Whether it's her lawyer calling about the upcoming trial of Keith Raniere and the other NXIVM leaders,

where Sarah may testify, or her agent with an audition as she refocuses on her acting career, which, by the way, she says is now more inspiring than when she was making cheesy vampire TV shows. It could also be a message from former NXIVM members, who make up what Sarah calls the resistance, or media requests for an interview or comment

about the latest development in the story. There's also therapy sessions over Skype with a psychoanalyst in New York who specializes in leaving cults. Look at my head! We just started seeing a couples counselor who helped us see just sort of pointed out like okay so you know I told her I've been diagnosed with PTSD and that's what I'm dealing with and Nippy sort of described what's going on for him and so she was like sounds like you're going through

depression and when those two things are happening it's like my PTSD is interacting with his depression. It's not even like our, it's not even people. Sarah and Nippy started out as a power couple in NXIVM. Now they wanted to find their relationship outside of it. A year after leaving, they renewed their vows in a small ceremony on Hornby Island. This time, they wrote the vows instead of Keith. Since leaving the group, Sarah has stuffed all her NXIVM paraphernalia into a canvas tote bag. She keeps it hidden under her desk at home.

She tells me she'd be happy to burn it all if her lawyers hadn't told her to keep it as evidence. Sarah empties it out on the dining room table. There are sashes and photographs. There's a book written by Keith, with a foreword by the Dalai Lama. If you're interested, this is the book that Lauren gave me the night that we were branded the Guru and the Disciple. It's from Swami Muktananda. I had wondered about that scripture

that Sarah said Lauren Salzman was reading during their branding ceremony. And here it is. It's from a book called The Perfect Relationship, The Guru and the Disciple. It's been easy enough to stash these items away or to paste a yellow sticky note over Lauren's face in Sarah's wedding photo.

Other things are not so easy. So what goes through your mind now when you see that scar in the mirror? Oh, I fucking hate it. It's so gross. It's healing. It's, um, it's just so ugly, and it's the only mark I have on my body. And at the same weird time, I'm, I know I needed that to wake up. Sarah's also figuring out what to do with the less tangible remnants of NXIVM, an entire worldview and philosophy that sometimes feels like it's been seared into her brain. Her vocabulary is still riddled with NXIVM jargon, terms like effort strategy and integration. Nippy says it's been painful trying to sort out what's worth hanging on to.

You ever get caught in a riptide? You think you come up for air and you think you're fine, that the wave hits you again? It's kind of like that. You you think you're fine that the wave hits you again it's kind of like that you feel like you're fine you hit with another wave and it's like god this is like you know my life got fucked up you know nippy was in the group as long as sarah though his exit has been a little more low profile i think what i was struggling with was am i a good person in some shape or scope it felt like I was doing dirty things for a long time and didn't know it. What was I teaching? What was I, you know, as opposed to what I was thinking? What was I part of? Was this this guy's fucking MO the whole time? And I missed it because I was so arrogant and self-righteous about what I was doing. That's the thing. I mean, really, I had to reconcile my own pride and arrogance got me into that.

I'm a good dude. I'm not going to let this fucking thing be my narrative. I'm still reconciling how I do it. I'm still embarrassed. I'm humiliated. And that is going to be the way it is until I'm strong enough just to take it on the chin and be okay with the fact that I was in a fucking cold and didn't really know it. NXIVM lost most of its members when Sarah and Nippy jumped ship, and news about DOS was spreading. But there appear to be dozens of diehards who remain loyal to Keith, even after the FBI investigation and all the arrests. Nippy and Sarah are still keeping tabs on who's in and who's out.

They're especially aware of people they recruited who didn't follow them out the door. Is there anyone that you've had to apologize to or feel like you've had to apologize to? I'm constantly in process. We did the apology tour. So what's an example? There's the Elliott brothers that are in there,

Mark, Justin, and Brian, and they're all beautiful people. But they've kind of dug their heels in. And I was teaching in New York, and I was kind of the teacher that kind of got them on board with what we were doing. And I told their parents, I was like, you know, look, man, I feel responsible for that. Like, I can't imagine what it's like to have three kids in there. I just want to clean it up. I don't know how to do it.

During the day, I've been interviewing Sarah and Nippy. At night, I meet up with old friends at a bar, many who know Sarah from way back. These are people who have been wary of NXIVM for years. They've endured her cheesy self-improvement quotes on Facebook, her efforts to recruit family and friends. And they aren't quite ready for Sarah to just stash her NXIVM life in a tote bag and move on.

They know I'm working on this podcast, and somewhere between ordering drinks and food, we're already knee-deep in it. I have no sympathy for her, says one friend. She wants to be seen as a victim and a hero. What about all the people she duped into joining the organization? They've all been reading the same articles popping up about Sarah since she left NXIVM. These articles portray her as a victim, indoctrinated, manipulated, and coerced until she left and blew the whistle and became a hero. My dinner dates feel that something is missing.

Ask her how much money she made, someone asks as we chomp into our burgers. How could she believe this bozo had all the answers? Where's the humility? They saw this train wreck coming from miles away and years ago. I should have recorded this conversation, though I doubt anyone would have been as candid. Since leaving NXIVM, Sarah is hearing it from all sides. As Keith's lawyer told me, even Sarah's former friends inside the company are upset with her. He says they knew her as an enthusiastic participant in NXIVM and DOS, who when she left, betrayed them. On the other

hand, she gets calls and emails regularly from people thanking her for blowing the whistle. I've thought a lot about how to understand Sarah's journey in and out of NXIVM. Is she naive? Brave? Calculating? I'm not sure there's a simple answer to this. As I told my friends at the bar, I don't know that she has to be just one. She might be all these things. In NXIVM, the world is black and white, good and bad, ethical and unethical. It's about honor and dishonor, and a ranking system that imposes a rigid order on the world. And it masks the fact that people are messy.

After leaving NXIVM, Sarah has to grapple with the ambiguity of her story. I think some people have had a tough time as they see the media stories. It felt like overnight you went from champion to victim as your story became public. And I wonder if you have a response to that. My first thought is I can see how that would be a tough pill to swallow for anyone watching who doesn't know the nuances or the intricacies of what happened between, you know, January of 2017 and June of 2017. It was a big, you know, flip that happened, you know, and everything got very murky and strange and dark, at least for me. You know, I'm a victim and I'm not a victim.

When people start finding things out and lying about it is when they become, this is my opinion, they become perpetrators. I never did that. I didn't dupe anybody. I didn't trick anyone. I will take responsibility for my part by going public. I knew I was going to go under scrutiny by going public, but it didn't matter. It's like, that's the right thing to do. And yes, I was a leader in it before. And yes, I was a champion of it. And as soon as I saw that what was actually going on, I exposed it.

What else should I do? How else can I do it? I don't know another way to do it or a better way to do it. Since leaving, Sarah's been trying to make amends with people. Old friends with whom she lost contact when she got involved in NXIVM. Former NXIVM students upset with her role in the company. She's been in contact with her three former slaves in DOS. None of them were branded like Sarah.

One was only in DOS for a week. But they're all trying to come to terms with what happened. And Sarah says their relationship today is complicated. Are there financial gains from going public with your story? Not yet. I mean, from all the press and everything that I've done, I haven't made anything. There's definitely opportunities. I haven't decided yet what I'm going to do with those opportunities.

But I also know that a lot of people are actually profiting from this, making their shows and making even this. this, making their shows and making even this. I don't know how that works on your end, but there's projects being made about my story. Is it okay for me to profit and then use that to help people or to get on with my life after what I've gone through? I'm still grappling with that on a daily basis. I wonder to what extent, looking back now, do you think that the financial gains that you were reaping from the company contributed to a kind of willful blindness to the darker side of what was happening

and the red flags that you might have seen otherwise? otherwise? I think there's a legitimacy to that point in terms of like, you know, making good money and feeling like, you know, wow, isn't this amazing that I'm getting paid to help people achieve their goals and dreams. You know, that's great. There was always red flags from the beginning, but I was also taught that that was my own issues. Do you think you would have left Nexium when you did if you were still making the kind of money that you were making when things were going really well? With the finding out about the branding and the darkness? Yeah, I still do because for me to leave when I did was a huge financial hit.

My friends at the bar are not the only people to raise questions about how Sarah earned money in Nexium and what she should do with it now. During our investigation, we received an anonymous encrypted email. Whoever wrote it also took issue with the way Sarah's story was being told. And I just want to read some of it to you here. It says, In her statements about the involvement with NXIVM, Ms. Edmondson mostly claims to be a victim, but the truth is she and several of her colleagues were ruthless recruiters for Mr. Ranieri and NXIVM for many years. They used bullying tactics, high pressure sales pitches, defamation, and trickery to ensnare hundreds of people within Vancouver's yoga and acting

community into spending thousands on the NXIVM period scheme, it says, but I think they mean pyramid scheme, which enriched Edmondson and her colleagues. And I wonder what is your response to that? Well, it's twofold. I mean, I think there's parts of that that are true, and there's parts that are very much untrue, at least for me. The parts that are true is that we were recruiters, and that was part of my job

is to sell people on this product. And I did that and I was good at it because I believed in it. And did I make money from that? Yes. Did I use trickery? And what was the other word? It says bullying tactics. Bullying. Absolutely. High pressure. No, absolutely not. I, I, I never did the hard sell with people. Now, again, I know people who did and used strategies that I think are very manipulative. Like what?

You know, like if somebody couldn't make a decision because they were waffling, because they felt not good about it, they'd say something like, Do you see that you're unable to make a decision right now? How much money is that issue causing you in your life, not being decisive? If you don't work on it here, where are you going to work on it? Something like that. And that was not something that you would do? Not like that. Most of the time, I just shared my experience, listened to whatever it was they were going through, and said, I think this can help with this, this, and this. If they said, like, for example, I want to, but I don't have the money, then I would say, imagine you've got to pay for some surgery and you need to come up with $2,000. Where would you find it? And would we just figure out how to either borrow it or sell something?

Or oftentimes, I lent them the money because I believed in it so much. Like if somebody really wanted to do it, money was truly the issue, I'd pay for them. Do you think people ended up paying for courses that they actually couldn't afford? Yes. And many people went into more debt, which I thought was them not like working the tools because when I went and did it, I got out of debt. And in hindsight, I mean, do you feel like you've come to terms with the damage that might have been done to people who overextended themselves financially? I mean, I don't think that will, I'll feel totally good with that until everyone's at least paid back for what they put in.

That's what I'm working on now, at least getting people their money back. And what about the money that you made through the organization? Do you feel like you're entitled to keep that money? Do I feel entitled? do I feel entitled? Honestly, Josh, I don't know. I could argue both ways. On one hand, I worked my butt off for 12 years,

and for many of those years, unpaid. And then when I was starting to make money, yes, I made good money, and then I believe I used it for good. If I had it liquid now, I would dole it out. I don't have that. Inexium is forbidden to question superiors. It's a policy that Sarah says contributed to the bystander effect. Even though she says she was uncomfortable with certain sales tactics, Sarah rarely spoke up. What kind of responsibility do you have for the fact that people in your organization

are using these kind of tactics to get people to sign up? I don't know. I feel like the way that I have spoken up and putting myself out there is the most that I can do to make up for where I didn't speak up. So, yeah, I guess I do feel responsible. But I also know how cults work now, and I can't beat myself up in that way. And when I had the information, I did the best I could. You know?

Mm-hmm. This is hard. How come? because so much of the recovery has been learning to not be so hard on myself. And that's what, you know, the first few months were, is just, you know, beating myself up for all of these things that you're bringing up and I know you're not trying to you know you're doing your job but it's like revisiting these things is like it just brings up a lot of that stuff you know, you didn't know, you have, you know, you had the best of intentions. When you found out you did the right thing. I have to keep telling myself that. Whoa!

You got in by yourself. In looking back at the way Sarah's behaved over the past 12 years, she says she feels most guilty about how she treated her mother. While I'm still in Vancouver, I talk Sarah into arranging a visit. We head out with her son. In 2017, it felt like drugs were everywhere in the news. So I started a podcast called On Drugs. We covered a lot of ground over two seasons,

but there are still so many more stories to tell. I'm Jeff Turner, and I'm back with season three of On Drugs. And this time, it's going to get personal. I don't know who Sober Jeff is. I don't even know if I like that guy. On Drugs is available now wherever you get your podcasts. So where are we heading? Oh, right. We're on?

We're always on. We're always on. Okay. We're heading to my mom's house. I've thought about Sarah's mom a lot over the past year. Sarah and her mom have always been close, but NXIVM took a heavy toll on their relationship. Her mom was anxious about where Sarah was heading, but she didn't know what to do.

She wondered whether an intervention would work, or just push Sarah away, which also meant losing contact with her grandson. Sarah's mom hasn't spoken to any media since Sarah's departure from NXIVM, but she agreed to let me record a conversation, so long as I don't use her name or mention her occupation. She's worried it could damage her professional reputation if she was linked to this story.

She's also terrified of NXIVM, even after the arrests of its leadership. She knows how litigious they are. So exciting! I haven't been here in so long. Oh God, it's so, honestly, so great to see you. I'm dying to see you. We arrive at her mom's familiar townhouse in the upscale Kitsilano neighborhood of Vancouver.

And it's really nice seeing you, Josh, since I've known you since you were 18 months. Have I changed? You didn't have the earphones on when you were 18 months. I had as much head hair. Yeah, you have the exact same expression. Sarah's mom has the same raven black hair and high cheekbones as Sarah. I've known her for almost four decades. As a kid, and especially a teen, she was the kind of adult who could relate to you without condescension. Maybe in part because by 13 I was taller than her. And like Sarah, she's also drawn to self-help workshops and retreats. Though Nexium's

philosophy of growth through suffering is not her bag. She's more into the generous dispensation of kindness. Sarah and her mom sit on a couch in the living room. I just wanted to be in sweatpants all day if I could. Sarah tucks her legs under her. Her mom sips a coffee. Sarah swigs the green smoothie she brought from home. Okay, let's get this out of the way. I pull a chair up close. You're totally allowed to talk about your experience.

You're fine. Yeah. Well, I do feel nervous about talking about it. That's fine. Yeah. Whatever you feel comfortable with. I think I've gotten into the habit of editing myself because I had reservations from the beginning.

I would say what I said. When Sarah left NXIVM, she stayed with her mom for a while in this house. It's been almost a year, but they're still processing it all. We had one really bad... Can I tell them about that? Yes. Okay.

As I came back here and I was like, there was one night where I was trying to sleep. There were just times when I just needed to be alone. And I said, like, I'm going to go upstairs. I have my room up here. I'm going to have a bath. I'm going to try to go to sleep. And then she came up. She was just concerned, like, rightfully so. And I was like, oh, honey, I just read about it I'm going to go upstairs. I have my room up here. I'm going to have a bath. I'm going to try to go to sleep. And then she came up. She was just concerned, like, rightfully so.

And I was like, oh, honey, I just read about the book. I wanted to hug me. And I, like, lost it. I was like, I said I wanted to be alone. And it's like all my anger about the whole situation, I just took it out on my mom. You know, and had I been one more bit angry, I may have pushed her down the stairs. And I diverted that and, like, pounded the floor like I had a tantrum. Like, I just raged into the floor.

Do you remember? Yes, I do. No. Yes, I do remember. And it was so scary. One of the hardest moments of being your mom that I've ever experienced. And I kept saying, this is not about you, but you have to fuck off. You know, like, I just, I know how sensitive she is.

And also like I couldn't control it. That's when I knew that like I had serious psychological damage that I needed to fix. How much did you see Sarah change over the time? I mean, she was in it for 12 years and in various capacities. Did you see a change in her? This group came first. So if there was anything to do with the group or being on the phone, it was hard to connect with you because there was always something else that was more important.

Sarah's mom says early on she decided to carefully voice her concerns about the group to Sarah and let her decide what to do with the information. It's really hard because you're at the age of your late 20s of individuating and you are supposed to go out on your own and develop your own thinking. And I'm saying, go and do your own thing. And then thinking, but you're not developing your own thinking. You're taking on somebody else's thinking. That didn't make sense to me then because what I was being told

is that ESP teaches you how to think, not what to think. So I thought that I was developing my own belief system. I really did. Wow. It was kind of framed and told to both of us that we have this dependent, independent relationship. So I got the feeling that you were being coached to not... got the feeling that you were being coached to not... For the record, Sarah checked her phone. I can see irritation flash across Sarah's mom's face. It's like catching a glimpse of what their dynamic was like when Sarah was fully immersed in NXIVM and glued to her phone.

That's the type of thing that really has interrupted some of our conversations. Sorry, I'm here. Yeah, that somehow there was something wrong in our relationship and it was being framed by some of these other people who know nothing about our relationship. Sarah's mom suffers from chronic health issues that got worse when Sarah was in NXIVM. When I saw her mom on Hornby last year,

she was wearing special sunglasses because of a serious eye condition. NXIVM teaches that being sick is a parasite strategy, a way of being dependent on other people. As Sarah's mom's health declined, Sarah drew back. I just felt resentful. I was like, oh, my mom's a parasite. You know, she's, you know, demanding all this attention. And then I just kind of I just was

like kind of bitter I felt your resentment and that was really hard on me and I think that it wasn't not doing it it was the resentment that was hard on our relationship and hard on my health I felt your distance that I you know you thought I was doing something wrong to cause this and that you didn't want to be around me I think I convinced you that if you were so concerned, you should come check it out for yourself. And then also, I'd get my money back. Because if you recruit three people, within three months you get your money back.

And so she was my third person. You recruited your mom. I recruited my mom. I can't believe it. Sarah's mom took a number of NXIVM courses. She even attended a few V-weeks. She wanted to stay close to her daughter and her grandson and to keep tabs on the group.

And what she saw concerned her. It was just different than I even imagined a personal development training program would be. Sarah's mom stops herself and whispers to Sarah. You can say whatever you want, mom. I can feel her uneasiness. Did you think it was a cult when she was inside? Yes, I did. I thought it was a cult because my definition of a cult is that everybody thinks the same way. And when there's that kind of leadership, when it's so leader-focused, there's always that danger. And you saw us all deifying Keith.

Yeah. You protected him. I mean, I think that I kept hearing or sensing that anybody who was questioning something was going to be ostracized. So I never heard you question him at all. How, how much did you have to edit yourself in terms of the way that you approach Sarah about your concerns? I mean, did you feel like there was a point past which you couldn't push that it might just alienate her? Yes. I think that's the bind I was constantly in. Cause for me,

the most important thing is I love you more than anything and you know I did not want to lose you so that there was a line beyond which I couldn't go and you were very clear um that you didn't want to talk about it most of the time and and the other thing was that you were saying, Mom, this is for life. This is what I'm going to be in for life. So you might as well get used to it. I was like, oh my God, you know.

The idea of a lifelong commitment to NXIVM was a horrible thought. But she couldn't have imagined what eventually would make Sarah break that commitment. I said, Mom, I just want you to know that some really bad things are happening. And you were just like so forthright and said, I want you to know this. I had to give some collateral, and that was one of the things you were most worried about

because it involved something to do with me, and you wanted me to know that it wasn't true. And then you told me about the branding and I it was beyond the pale I was in terrible shock my daughter had been really harmed my precious daughter had been really harmed I'm so sorry, Mom. I saw a picture of you, Mom. We got a picture of you from, like, when I first got in. You look so different. It's your eyes.

Yeah. And I really think, like, just metaphorically, my mom had to pretend she wasn't seeing things. Yeah. And really just shut herself off to the truth. And I think that's really affected you. And I just feel really responsible for that. I'm so sorry what's it like to have your daughter back and I cannot tell you how much joy and relief I have to have her back.

It's like, in my body, the most huge sense of gratitude and really relief. I was never really gone, was I? But I was annoying for many years. Okay, you said it. Okay, we're on an airplane flying from Toronto to New York. This is Josh and Kathleen. And we're about to head to a courthouse in Brooklyn where Keith Raniere is going to be arraigned. And we're meeting a bunch of the people that we've been talking to for all these months who have been saying that this is sort of all that they've been waiting for.

waiting for. I mean, there's people here who are very real personal connection to this. Some people who believe Mr Ranieri still has a hold over people in their family. What can you say to them? I mean, they're looking for answers here. The answers are going to come in a courtroom. And the answers are going to come in the context of these charges. He's pled not guilty, and our position is that he's not guilty. I'm standing outside a courtroom in Brooklyn for Keith Raniere's bail hearing. Sarah's lawyer advised her not to attend the hearing,

because she may be a witness at the trial. And if she testifies against Keith, Allison Mack, Claire Bronfman, Lauren Salzman, and Lauren's mom, Nancy, this is where she'll come. As Sarah reckons with her past, Keith and five others will soon face a reckoning of their own. These were her colleagues, her mentors,

her friends. The next time she sees them, she could be looking down at them from a witness box. I find Barbara Boucher, Keith's ex-girlfriend and one of the leaders of the NXIVM9. She's standing just outside the courthouse. She came here early to make sure she'd get a seat. No one person is all good or all bad, including Keith Ranieri. And there are beautiful aspects of him. And those are the reasons why I and others got affiliated with the group.

And even though he deserves to be here today, he deserves to be held accountable, I think Keith Ranieri could have been a brilliant, amazing man that could have made a huge difference in the world. So, and just, it's almost like there's a death of a human being and a dream and a possibility of what this could have been and that was what drew me to it because there was a dream not have a seat. We head into the courtroom. There's about 70 people sitting on wooden benches in the gallery, waiting for Keith to arrive.

It's a kind of reunion with a cast of folks we've met over the past year. There's Barbara in the gallery, waiting for Keith to arrive. It's a kind of reunion with a cast of folks we've met over the past year. There's Barbara in the front row, Keith's ex-girlfriend Tony Natalia sitting a few seats over, still wearing her orange jumpsuit bracelet. Barbara hasn't seen Keith for almost a decade, and Tony twice as long. We sit down next to Barry Meyer, the journalist who broke Sarah's story in the New York Times. After a half-hour delay, the gallery falls silent. Keith enters the courtroom through a side door. He heads to his seat. He has a curious bounce to his step, like a schoolboy, and he sits down with his lawyers about 20 feet in front of me.

His jumpsuit is taupe, not orange, and his face is flush. He needs a haircut. Here is Vanguard in the flesh. It feels like he's walked out of a novel or a movie screen. I'm riveted. I don't want to miss anything. I feel like I'm straining to out of a novel or a movie screen. I'm riveted. I don't want to miss anything. I feel like I'm straining to pick up a sign, any hint of who he really is,

something that will reveal his magical powers. Many people have told me about the first time they met Keith. They said they were surprised at how unassuming he is. In a way, that's how I feel too, slightly disappointed at his ordinariness. But I'm also transfixed. This man convinced so many people, including Sarah,

that he was an enlightened being. I've heard so much about Keith from Sarah. I wonder now what he thinks of her. The woman he mentored and helped climb through the ranks of his organization. One of his female disciples that helped prop him up for so many years and then turned against him. Did he underestimate her? Keith waves his right to seek bail with a couple soft-spoken and deferential, yes, your honors.

The whole thing lasts less than 10 minutes, and Keith exits, stage right. it's really like a it was a false hope in what was possible for humanity finding that you know finding out that what you believe to be true is totally not true. I'm just going to blow my nose real quick, okay?

I just realized somebody left a napkin here and has a phone number on it, and now it's covered in snot. So I hope they didn't need that. Call the number and apologize. I didn't think you were going to make me cry. I was, like, feeling so good. Why do you think this happened to you? Well, I think psychologically,

I was drawn into how good it felt to be part of something that was valuable, and I felt valuable because of that. And, you know, my circumstances prior being an actor and, like, living in a basement suite and feeling like that wasn't my purpose and then finding my purpose. You felt at that time that you didn't have a purpose. Yeah. I went to that cruise specifically stating the intention of figuring out my purpose.

And then when I met Mark and heard about this, I was like the intention of figuring out my purpose. And then when I met Mark and heard about this, I was like, oh, this is my purpose. This is my purpose. To build a community, to help people, to help people with their goals. Even now, Josh, I still think that's part of my purpose, but not through Nexium. I just bet on the wrong horse. I guess, I mean, this is most likely the end of our journey on this story together, and I wondered if you had questions for me. I do. God, this is going to be too long, though.

I don't know. I guess my first thought is, because it's you versus any other interviewer or journalist, is what's it like to do this with your background knowing me from daycare? I mean, I think it's obviously a pretty crazy story. And so to know someone, it's not just a crazy story that happened to a random person. It's a crazy story that happened to someone you know. But I had no idea when we ran into each other how big and complicated the story was. It's not a simple story to tell at the farmer's market at Ornby Island. No, it's not and i have to go because my meter's up and i have a 2 30 audition thank you in like eight minutes oh god uh just explain to them what was

going on it's a big deal i'm gonna call for 12 years okay okay okay bye Okay. Okay. Bye. Bye. Escaping NXIVM is written and produced by Kathleen Goldhar, Anita Elash, me, Josh Bloch, and Mika Anderson, who is also our audio producer. Heather Evans is our senior producer, and Arif Noorani is the executive producer. Our digital producer is Eunice Kim, and Evan Agard is our video producer. Christian Jebsen and Shamhan Booyan did our transcriptions.

Special thanks to Cecil Fernandez for his technical and mixing support, and Chris Oak, our consulting story editor, and the CBC Reference Library. Also thanks to Athena Karkanas, Megan Griffith-Green, Leslie Merklinger, Sean Moorman, Julie Snyder,

Tanya Springer, David Studer, Lawrence Wright, and the entire team at CBC's The Current. Come be part of our online communities by joining the Uncover Escaping NXIVM Facebook group or following us on Twitter at Uncover CBC. Stay tuned for bonus content as we continue to follow this story.

You can get the series on Apple Podcasts or Google Podcasts. It's all free. We're at cbc.ca slash uncover. Thank you. For more CBC Podcasts, go to cbc.ca slash podcasts.