Uncover - S16: “Kuper Island” E4: What happened to Richard?

Episode Date: August 2, 2022

Richard Thomas was smart, kind and well-loved. He was having no problems in school and he wanted to go further in education. Then inexplicably, days before his graduation, he’s found dead in the Kuper Island school gym. His death was ruled a suicide — with no further questions as to why. We piece together a portrait of the teenager through his own writings, and find an old coroner’s report that raises more questions than answers about how Thomas died. For transcripts of this series, please visit: https://www.cbc.ca/radio/podcastnews/kuper-island-transcripts-listen-1.6622551

There is a political firestorm burning in America. We're going to walk down to the Capitol. Possible Capitol injuries. The Flamethrowers tells the story of the radio broadcasters who started that fire and kept it burning. Here is Rush Limbaugh. Broadcasters who clawed their way from the fringes of American politics. I've had enough of all of it! I've had enough of it! to the very centre of power.

The Flamethrowers. Available now on the CBC Listen app or wherever you get your podcasts. This is a CBC Podcast. Before we start, this is a podcast about Canada's Indian residential schools and it contains descriptions of sexual violence, suicide, and abuse. If you need support, you can find information about where to turn for help at cbc.ca slash keeperisland. Richard Thomas died in 1966, but the death of a child at a residential school isn't a thing of the past.

It travels like ripples over water, touching generations. Even though he never met his Uncle Richard, John Thomas was hurt by his death too. John is Belvey's son. He runs a firewood business from his home at the Halalt First Nation. He's in his late 40s. Although I didn't go to residential school, it's affected my life in just tremendous ways. Growing up with my mom was extremely difficult. The first 15 years of my life, she was really an active alcoholic.

She didn't do any healing around her experiences at residential schools, so a lot of the traumas that she suffered were then inflected upon her children in ways. It was difficult, right? It turned me into an alcoholic. Belvey

worked at a school as a teacher's aide. But the pain she suffered at Cooper Island clouded the rest of her life. She married a non-native, John's father. He was extremely abusive. Belle drank a lot. She gambled. It all had a major impact on John. His relationship with his mom is strained. Here's something that's really difficult for me is because, you know, my mom gets insanely abused by these nuns and priests. And, okay, so that's somebody that's outside the family that's messing with you and causing major trauma.

The problem for people, for my generation, is we get messed up by the people that are supposed to be nurturing us. Our own parents are the ones that are mangling us. He's been sober 15 years, done a lot of therapy. Part of his healing meant understanding the past and unpacking the stories about Richard. My mom would let things out when she was drinking and I heard that he didn't make it back from Cooper Island. She would talk about my late uncle Richard, you know, it was like probably one of the most traumatic things.

I couldn't believe what I was hearing when I heard it, that this happened in Canada. Then John told me a story I'd heard over and over since we first started looking into this, about what the priests and nuns did after Richard was found hanging. What was really disturbing was the fact that those priests had made every child in the school walk through the gym and look at him before they cut him down. I mean, just how disturbing is that? There's people alive today still that remember going to that gym and seeing him hanging there.

I mean, just so disturbing. When I would be partying on the reserve, I would talk to some of the older people to find out if anybody remembered that. And I came across people that had to walk through that gym. It's not a story. That's the truth. What was it like to have people tell you that? What was it like to have people tell you that? Well, it's fuel for alcoholism, you know? It's more fuel for me, right? That these kind of things would happen to my family.

What once fueled John's demons is now fueling his desire for truth and justice. And he's on the same journey we are, trying to find out what really happened to Richard on that June night back in 1966. I'm Duncan McHugh, and this is Cuper Island, Episode 4, What Happened to Richard? When John started searching for answers about Richard's life and death, he didn't want to ask his mom. It was too triggering for both of them.

He didn't need more of that. Instead, he turned to social media and found plenty of upsetting stories about his late uncle. He got killed by a priest in residential school. Not only killed, he was sodomized first. I mean, like, it's insane. He also heard a rumor that Richard was buried in an unmarked grave in Penelakut, so John decided to create a memorial. That's when he figured out Richard has a proper grave, in the Halalt First Nation Graveyard. He's buried right down the street from me here. And I found out that they got, they had Uncle Richard over here to Halalt and buried him in our family graveyard. It was

relieving. It was very relieving. Just to know that he was here in Hulalt. That he's here. He's home. Yeah, he's not in an unmarked grave on Cooper Island. But let's not take anything away from the children that are there. This situation is unique, that Richard was brought here and buried properly. But there's a bunch that weren't, right? and buried properly, but there's a bunch that weren't. I asked John if it matters to him that there's a new statutory holiday to recognize truth and reconciliation.

Canadians from coast to coast to coast marked it by wearing orange, a color that's come to symbolize the suffering of survivors. I've lived 48 years of this. I don't need a day to be, to reflect on residential school. It's been a major part of my life. Yeah, understood. But the rest of the country,

if you feel good putting on an earned short, then, you know, get on board. Show some support. If it warms your heart to be a part of, then great. So what does need to be done? Let's get some of these priests in jail. Lock them up. Like, show us that you care enough to charge these people.

Like, come on, Canada. They're old. Most of them are dead. Who cares how old they are? Get them behind bars. Like, show Canada that First Nations people are worthy of a bit of justice. Right? We're worth that. My Uncle Richard is worth that. John wants Richard to be remembered for more than the ugliness of his death.

One of the first things he and Belvey told us was that Richard loved writing. They said there's an old book out there somewhere with his stories in it, but no one had a copy. Would you like to see the book that Richard's writings are in? Yeah. What, did you found it? No way. I read it when I was a little kid. My mom said, oh, this is your late uncle, and I read a story about a deer, right? Yes. Yeah, okay. So we went, both your mom and you were talking about it, and we were like, what is this? So we went and found it.

How did you find it? It was in the Vancouver Public Library. Unbelievable. Yeah. Yeah, let's read it right now. That'd be great. The book is called Tales from the Longhouse. It's a collection of legends written by First Nations children from Vancouver Island

who gathered the stories from elders. It's a bit of a dusty relic, published back in 1973. Richard tells three stories in it. One is the tale of a boy turned into a deer. Another is about a girl transformed into a crow. The last one is the origin story of his people, the Halalt tribe. There's the book. Wow.

So, yeah, I remember Richard Thomas, age 14, grade 7, the brother of residential school. The Halalt tribe. Richard Thomas. So this is told by his father, my late grandfather, Stan Thomas. Once many, many moons ago, there was a very kind man. He lived in Sandwich for a long time all by himself. He had not seen another person since his father had died of some kind of sickness.

His mother had died a few hours after he was born. From the time that he was only 10 years old, he knew how to hunt, carve, make weapons to kill animals, and how to make shelters carve, make weapons to kill animals, and how to make shelters for himself while out hunting. He knew how every animal looked and smelled but he never knew what a woman looked like. One day while out hunting he saw a strange creature walking around with two legs and two arms. According to the legend, the hunter ends up trapping the creature and discovers it's a woman. The man decided to call his woman Halalt after a beautiful fish that he had one day seen his father catch because he thought that she too

was beautiful. She decided to call him Mishkin. When they were very old they had many grandchildren. These young people wanted to call themselves the Mishkins but he said before he died this is Halalt's tribe. There is still a tribe called Halalt. I know this because I am one. Awesome. What do you think of that? Well, it's just amazing, right? It's just, it's, it's just so heartwarming. Heartwarming. Why? Well, because there's a piece of my uncle, right? Yeah. It's a piece of my late uncle that, you know, was killed, right? Yes. And here's a piece of him that's still alive.

Yeah, that's awesome. And to be like, we're in Halalt. This is Halalt, right? I live here. Yeah, yeah. This is great. Yeah. Yeah.

That's awesome. I couldn't believe, A, that we found his writing, because it's like he's talking to us, right? Yeah. That's awesome. I couldn't believe, A, that we found his writing. Because it's like he's talking to us, right? Yeah. He's guiding you. Maybe. Absolutely. I hadn't put it that way.

Right? You're working for him. He's guiding you. I like that. Like, there's so much more going on than what we see, right? I've been with enough traditional people to i i believe strongly in spirits and and that the ancestors are talking to us yeah we're guy there's there's a good chance richard's sitting here right now with us right what i i loved reading his words

just because it gave me a connection to him because at first we just heard this story right about this boy that committed suicide. That was all we knew. And then now we're starting to learn more about him. But the other thing that I thought was super cool was just that he was like, A, he got the story from your grandpa. And then he says, like, I'm Halalt. Like, this is who I am. I am one.

Which is pretty cool. There's got to be some kind of legacy for my late uncle Richard Thomas. You know, it's just like the way that you die can be your legacy, which just sucks in this case, because there's so much more to him than his death. It's a bright part of him that we get to share, right? I just can't thank you enough for bringing that. We had already asked Belle V and her partner Ken

to take us to her brother's grave. Now it feels even more important to pay our respects. Okay, I'll see you guys there. Yeah. Take your time. Okay. What time is it? Oh, 2.41.

We usually don't go to the graveyard after 4 or 4 and a half. Three. Three? Oh. The Hulka Minim have customs about not disturbing the ancestors after a certain time of day, so we're sort of racing to get there. Hi, thank you. It's a small, tidy graveyard. Thank you for bringing us here.

Okay. Hard to see. It's all covered up with leaves. Yeah. It's that time of year. No, I think it's on this side, hon. I think it's these ones here. Ken is sweeping aside all the autumn leaves.

Then he finds it, a modest brass plaque set in the ground. That's Richard? Mm-hmm. Oh, there, there. He pulled aside the leaves. Richard Murphy Allen Thomas, M.A. Thomas, dear to our hearts. Does it make you feel good that he's here in the graveyard, that Richard? Better than being in some graveyard out in Penelakut. Yeah. Yeah.

At least he came home. Mm-hmm. Yeah. We were able to see him after, you know. It's in our tradition to put tobacco down, so I'm just going to put some tobacco down for Richard to let him know why we're here and to say thank you. Would that be appropriate? Yeah.

What's it like coming here? It's hard, you know, like, what's hard about it is seeing the names of my brothers and sisters on so many crosses and stuff. And that's my other brother, Arnold. He was just younger than Richard. Well, Brian was younger, but Richard and Arnold... To Belvey, the early deaths of her brothers and sisters often point back to the trauma they experienced at the residential school. And it all started with Richard. I've never actually put that together, that Richard was the first really big tragedy in your family.

Yeah, yeah, Richard was the first that we all just, you know, it seemed like it just broke us all. And it was like every two years we were losing somebody after that. Because, you know, like after Richard passed away, we just all started drinking Because, you know, like after Richard passed away, we just all started drinking and, you know, we just wanted to try and forget about it, you know, sort of thing. And we were young, we were, you know, we were all abused at the schools and forget everything, you know, everything. We were all on a suicide mission.

After Richard, you know, like, it just really affected us. We were all trying to kill ourselves, you know, whether it was through alcohol or whatever, you know. And most of them did. Like I said, there's only two out of 17. Two left, so, you know, a lot of them managed to do it. I just broke free from it. Some reason or other, maybe I have a mission. I'm 73 years old and I just want to live my life in peace and the only thing that would really give me a lot of peace is finding out what happened to Richard.

He didn't commit suicide. I know that in my heart. So if we can find out what happened to him, I would feel a whole lot better. I mean, he was my friend and my brother. You just don't get over those kind of things. And when somebody tells you that he did wrong to himself, it's not a happy place to stay. We close the gate to the graveyard, take a deep breath. Then me and my producer Martha turn our attention to the next person on our to-do list.

Right, Joe Norris? No. Philip Joe? Philip Joe, yeah. Yeah, where his house was. Just the day before, a survivor had spoken up at a big public meeting, revealing that he'd witnessed Richard hanging. We figure he might help fill in more blanks about Richard's death. His name is Philip Joe. We want to find him. And so does Beldy.

When I heard about Philip talking about it, I wish I was there to hear it. I really do, because that's the first time that it's been spoken in public. Ken thinks he knows where Philip lives. Belvey wants to take us there, even though she's never met him, and right away. So we jump in our cars and drive to a different tiny Indian reserve, eventually arriving at a small, old house. At first it seems like no one's home. I was just telling Bill, maybe he's at that traditional ceremony that's happening right below our house. Oh, no, maybe not.

Hey. Hey. So what's up? Hi. Hey. Hey. So what's up? Hi. Hey. This is Philip. Philip Joe. Philip invites us all in. He's a big man with tattoos of bear claws on each forearm. It doesn't take long before he launches into his story.

He spent several years at Cooper Island, and he witnessed two of his peers die. The first was a boy who tried to escape and drowned. His body had washed up on shore. And he was, you know, when you're drowned, you're really bloated up. That's how that person was. And, you know, you had crabs coming out of his mouth. And, you know, you had crabs coming out of his mouth. It's yet another story of the Oblates forcing kids to stare at a dead classmate. And I remember them telling us to stay around the body and look down.

This is what can happen to you if you feel bad and want to run away. And some of the kids and myself, you know, wanted to look away and then we got hit by that two by two that I was carried. And some, I remember my head bleeding and I couldn't look away. It was hard. We were taking turns. We stayed there for two hours looking at the body. So it was really hard. I remember biting my lip until it was bleeding. Just not to cry. Because if you cry, they really beat you up.

Philip pauses here. He's fighting back tears. Then he resumes his story. About the second time he was forced to stare at a dead child. And the other one was... The other one was when he hung himself. Richard. Yeah. That's my brother. We were all around him, man.

And they told us not to move. And we're all looking up like this at them. You know, when you're a little kid and you get sore, you want to look away and scared and everything, and then we'd get hit again. Those are the bad memories I have. That's why I say every day reminds me of my son. I mean, we never ever believed that he committed suicide. We never ever, you know, like something in our heart told us that it wasn't suicide. And it was so powerful,

like to this day. I've been, you know, like I've been asking questions and wondering, you know, like, and then when I know there's some people, when they viewed him, they were telling them that this could happen to you too. And when they marched us all around outside and everything, they had us in a circle. And like I said, we didn't know what was going on. And they told us to look up, so we looked up like this. And he was hanging there. And they told us not to move, keep staring.

They often put stuff in our minds about why the kids were doing things like that. They said, if you're going to feel sorry for yourself, this is what's going to happen to you. You want to do that. So they put it in our minds not to feel like more or less beat it out of us. Don't feel sorry for yourself.

Don't cry for your family. Don't even cry when we're beating you up. Thank you, but now I'm a bit more confused. So can you just tell me again, where was this? It was at the gym, but from what I can remember, I remember that it seemed like there was a stairway or something like that into the gym. And there were, he was like on the side of it or something. I can't really remember, but I just remember going, standing out there and something like that. I really wanted to forget.

When they called us, they told us that they found him inside the gym, not outside. Yeah, he was outside. I remember him being outside. Philip seems so firm remembering Richard hanging outside, but that's not what I've heard from others. It's time for me to say, here's where a problem emerges, one that's always existed with the truth about residential schools. Who do you believe?

The priests and government officials who wrote the official records and had motives to hide anything bad that happened? Or survivors? Captive children so scared and traumatized that sometimes their memories have holes. They didn't take notes or write down dates. They actually spent much of their lives doing things, sometimes harmful things, to try to forget it all. But they can't. I told the people last night or yesterday that some of the elders are saying forget, you know, go on, move on. And I said that's possible. I said, I always told my kids, every day reminds me of residential. I said, that stuff will be always in my mind, in my heart. And I was talking about elders saying, it's time to forget that and learn your language. And I said, yesterday, I don't want to learn my language.

I said I'm all for my kids to learn. I said with me, they broke me, they beat that out of me. I gave up. I want to thank you guys for bringing out that hurt in me because I have often said that I wanted to get this out of me. Even though I'm crying and stuff like that, I keep saying that's not a man thing. I'm not like that. I say that to cry and that's not me.

But when I talk about residential stuff, and it really, really hurts. But when I talk about residential stuff, it really, really hurts. And again, I wanted to thank you for coming by. And when people make me cry, it opens my mind and my heart in a good way. Because I know you're not here to hurt me or anything like that. I just want to help and find out the right things. Then Philip does a very native thing.

He wraps up with a funny story about how happy it made a friend of his when one of the old priests from Cupra passed away. I remember him saying, we should go over there and saw what on his grave. He says, I don't I don't speak Yes. Great guess. Can I ask you what was it like to hear from Philip? It's a relief. You know, like my heart's been hurting for so long in regards to what happened to him and how they said that he committed suicide. And now I feel like I know he really didn't do it. Belvey's relief is a relief to me, though I'm less sure that Philip's story clears up how Richard died.

Then... Oh, look it up there. What's that? Up in that tree. Oh, a big eagle. Yeah. Say it for me one more time Ken. You know when they come close to us like that they're giving us medicine. Because Yachla is a big part of our culture and they were Gileo. So you know something

that's going on in here. He's looking at us. Yeah, looks like it. On the amicus, I'm low. I'm low ego. Oh, thank you. You're welcome. You're welcome. You're welcome. Aw. That's cool.

Yeah. Belvi met Ken a few years ago, after she quit drinking and started counseling. He's teaching her more about Hul'qa'minim traditions. It's all good medicine. Thank you for bringing us here. Thank you. Thank you very much. And we'll need it to grapple with the document awaiting us

when we return to the city. In 2017, it felt like drugs were everywhere in the news. So I started a podcast called On Drugs. We covered a lot of ground over two seasons, but there are still so many more stories to tell. I'm Jeff Turner, and I'm back with season three of On Drugs. And this time, it's going to get personal. I don't know who Sober Jeff is.

I don't even know if I like that guy. On Drugs is available now wherever you get your podcasts. Okay, so as of today, this morning, we got the coroner report to do with Richard Thomas' death. We're back in Vancouver, where a file we've been chasing has arrived. The coroner's inquiry into Richard's death.

This is page one. It says he was 16. June 25th, 1966. Because of COVID rules, producers Jody and Martha and me are sitting at a cafe outside, reading the report for the first time. It's 18 pages long and loaded with information. Attached here to please find the photographs mentioned in the previous report. Okay. Oh my God.

Oh my god. So, yeah, there are two photographs in this report. Oh my goodness. And they're very difficult to look at. Goodness. I've never seen photos of a death ruled a suicide. The pictures are disturbing. They show the inside of the Cooper Island gym we've heard so much about.

It's clearly a converted barn, with three rows of wooden bleachers. One photo is a close-up of a boy's head, noose around his neck. The other shows his body hanging next to a bench, his legs and hips lying on the rough wooden floor. Well, who knows what happened, but the suggestion is that he was on the bench and stepped off and hung himself. And so he's now hanging half on the floor and half in the air. We start working through the police report. Here's the version of events it lays out.

On June 2nd, 1966, one of the Oblates left the island with a group of children. That left brother Brian Dufour in charge of the boys. No one realized Richard was missing all day. Just before 11pm, the brothers start to look for him. They find his body in the gym. They call police. They arrive at midnight, with a doctor, who pronounces him dead. In the balcony there was a copy of the New Testament, open to Acts 15. Thomas was to take

a test on the Acts, and this would be the reason for this. Father Lobsinger read the pages at which it was opened and he did not attach any particular significance to these passages. The officer interviews three child witnesses who say they last saw Richard at 7 p.m. So basically these are statements by children and they talk about, you know, they were inside a gym, Richard was there, he was playing with

a rope that leads up to hold the movie screen he was making a knot putting a loop at the end of the rope he put the rope on his hand or he put his hand in this loop and he tied it and it says here that he was lying on his back on the floor and was pulling on the rope he threw the rope up in the balcony he was making a fastener with it and then he came down and he wanted to play basketball this is according to a statement by Donald Sampson and we played basketball for a while and then Richard told us it might be bedtime. And Richard went upstairs to the balcony and started to read the New Testament.

Ray and Jimmy and I went in and went to bed. And then it goes on to say he had to be led most of the way through his statement, which to me, it's like, well, what does that mean? Why would someone have to be led throughout their statement? Is that because the child's upset? That's what would leap to my mind, is that he's upset. I suppose we should try to find all these guys. Totally. We have to find them.

The officer interviews the principal and two oblates who found Richard in the gym. One of them was Brian Dufour. I am a brother in the oblates of Mary Immaculate and have been stationed at Cooper Island Indian Residential School since August 1965. So I've been there for less than a year at this point. I'm the junior boys supervisor. And as such, my duties are to supervise the boys. Okay, sorry, I have to stop here because it's troubling me already.

Knowing what we know about the stories of Brother Dufour... Yes, it's the same Brian Dufour who organized the expo trip, which is where Tony and James told us he sexually abused them. I've known Richard Thomas all the time I have been here and I've found him to be outgoing and talkative. I have never noticed him to be depressed or moody. Signed, Brother Dufour. If we know what we know about Dufour, well, Dufour is not a trustworthy source for a statement. That's the problem with this whole investigation. The officer writes that Richard was doing well in school, and there appears to be no reason for committing suicide. But he still concludes a suicide is what took place. Okay, hang on.

So and then a week and a half later. The officer adds an update saying he's learned Richard's parents separated two weeks before his death, which he figures may have contributed to Richard's state of mind. Belvey disputes that version of events. She says her parents never separated or divorced. The officer also searched Richard's locker and desk and found his school books and essays. So there's a couple other entries from his journal. One is called Death in the Evening.

That story is about a car accident. It's creative writing. The officer chooses two other stories, about a friend who dies in hospital with a bone stuck in his throat, and about a horse which dies. But it's the last one that feels most eerie. An entry from Richard's journal titled, My Future. On February 2nd, 1966, and this is also by Richard Thomas,

and he poses three questions. The first question says, when am I going to die? Question mark. The second question, what kind of career am I going to have? Question mark. And number three, what grade am I going to reach? Holy cow. And there's a question mark.

Wow. When am I going to die? That's not necessarily a question that a lot of kids would be asking themselves. It's also in the context of the school, right? Yes. Like where there's a lot of death. I hadn't been around a lot of death by the time I was a young teenager doing writing assignments.

That's a good point. I mean, a lot of kids were dying in these institutions, and so maybe for him to pose that question is normal in his world, in his environment, possibly. The autopsy and police report have given us a whole new set of information about Richard. He was smart.

He was having no problems in school, according to teachers. He wanted to go further in education. Then, inexplicably, he's hanging in a gym. It's ruled a suicide. No further questions as to why. So this is the police officer pulling the writings that he says are about death i mean what else is a 16 year old boy who goes to an irs to write about when the when that's all you see and hear about and you see some of your friends not coming back to the school. The cop could have easily written, yes, I looked in his writings and I found a lot of stories

about a scared boy who was being acted upon by external forces that he couldn't control. They say in police work that, you know, you're not supposed to have blinders on, right? You're supposed to go in and not have tunnel vision and be open to all the possibilities, right? Well, it seems to me like this is a coroner's inquest which has tunnel vision and has set out to prove a thesis.

And so you read this report now, and it reads very differently than it would have read to an official at the time. Looking at what happened here, you'd just say, okay, no problem, that looks pretty, like that was just a suicide, but when we read it now, it doesn't read that way at all. History has changed how all of these documents need to be interpreted. On one hand, it's now clear Richard's death didn't get swept under the rug. But knowing what we know from survivors,

the investigation raises so many questions. So, we turn to an expert for some help. Kona. Yes. Hey, there you are. Good morning. Good morning. How are you? Good. How are you?

Dr. Kona Williams is Cree and Mohawk. She's the first Indigenous forensic pathologist in Canada. She's based in Northern Ontario, but I've asked her to review Richard's autopsy because she has unique interest and insight into deaths at residential schools. I feel for this family, and I can't imagine losing their child in a place like that. You know, I've had relatives who had attended residential school, and I just wanted to tell the family, I'm sorry. I'm really sorry that they had to lose their child like that.

Her dad is a survivor of the Birtle Indian Residential School in Saskatchewan. He said that you'll go further than I will, and I want you to go further and as far as you can, because, you know, he said, I never had that opportunity. And when I think about what he went through, when my mother went to day school, to me, it feels like I owe it to everybody who came before me and gave me this opportunity to be able to do this. It's almost like I owe it to them to find the truth. Because this is what I do. My whole job is finding truth about how people died. This autopsy was completed before Kona was born, and she says right out of the gate, she would have done things differently. The autopsy report itself is quite short. So for me, I'm used to having a little bit more information in there. But from what I could

tell, a full autopsy was completed, which I think would have been important in a case like this. The only other thing that I noticed that really jumped out was the cause of death. And that was worded differently than I would have worded it. The death certificate says the cause of death is strangulation. Belvey has seen that. It's part of what raised her suspicions that Richard didn't commit suicide. I would have labeled the cause of death as hanging and not strangulation because there's too much at risk in calling something like that strangulation because it implies in sort of today's language that this might have been done by somebody else. Kona isn't sure about the terminology in BC in the 1960s.

Older coroners may have put hanging and strangulation in the same category. But typically with a strangulation, there are signs of a struggle, bruises or scratches, and different types of marks on the neck. The doctor identifies none of those in his examination. And typically when I do a review like this of a case, we do have lots of information. So we may ask for photographs of the autopsy itself, for slides, microscopic slides to look at the tissues, anything else that's available to us to do sort of an independent review. So we'd look at the medical and scientific facts that are available.

And based on sort of like the little one pager that I got, I didn't see any evidence of that based on what's recorded. We talk about the upsetting photo of Richard. I'm confused why half his body is on the ground. Kona says people can die from something called partial suspension. It means their feet don't have to be off the ground to cut off blood flow to the brain. Our other question is about the doctor's observation

that Richard's body was cold, and his conclusion that means Richard died at 7pm. That's less clear-cut. If the physician is observing that the body is quite cold, is it possible that he had been dead much longer, like that he had been dead earlier in the day, for example? Yeah, that's possible. It also depends on temperature, it depends on clothing,

it depends on many, many things. The rate of cooling of a body. Again, it's very, very difficult to pinpoint a time of death. If I was examining this young boy, I would have said he could have died any time between when he was last seen and, you know, the time he was discovered. We've heard from a couple of students that Richard was hanging outside, not inside. So is it possible that he was moved? You know, is it possible? Yes.

Would I be able to tell from the information I have? Unfortunately not. Okay. There's also stories that he may have been murdered. Is it possible to determine from this autopsy report that that may have happened? With, you know, the limited information that I have, I wouldn't be able to say, yes, he'd been murdered or no, he hadn't. Typically, again, with these types of cases, I have a lot more evidence and information at hand. And so based on this first look, I wouldn't be able to say one way or the other.

Based on this first look, I wouldn't be able to say one way or the other. Reading this was as eye-opening for Kona as it was for us. She has years of experience, but it's the first time she's ever seen an autopsy of a residential school death. She believes Richard died by hanging, not strangulation, but emphasizes the report is far from definitive. For the time and the circumstances, it was adequate. Looking through the lens of today, if a child dies at school nowadays, the investigation would be pages and pages and pages of information.

The report, at least, would be very different. So it's hard for me to put today's lens into what was done before. But again, considering what was done to these children, I wouldn't be surprised if their after-death care was similar to their care in life. Being what? Poor. If at all. And that'll be the big question.

How well were they investigated? We know that a lot of times families had no idea not only where their children were, but whether or not they died. So that, by today's standard, would have been completely unacceptable. So if the very basics of communication to families about the death of their child wasn't done, I wouldn't be surprised if the rest of the investigation was either improperly done or not done at all. I'm really not sure how we're going to share all this with Belvey, but I feel like I have a responsibility to do that. I do know this. Richard's death was the exception, not the rule.

The majority of deaths at Cooper Island weren't fully investigated, and many children didn't get proper burials, which leaves so many questions for Hul'q'u'minam families and communities about what to do next. Coming up on Cooper Island, we find out how the people of Penelaket are trying to make things right by feeding the dead. And I was very surprised when she said,

yeah, there were some missing children here eating at your guys' table. And they thank you for sharing your food with them. And we visit with archaeologists using high-tech gear to confirm the children at Cuper Island weren't only neglected in life, they were neglected in death. That seems like a crime. The country would institutionally construct a system

wherein children were likely to die. Who builds a school and puts a cemetery next to it. Cuper Island is produced by Martha Troian and Jody Martinson and hosted by me, Duncan McHugh. Our senior producer is Jeff Turner. Our coordinating producer is Roshani Nair, mixed by Kate McIntosh and Evan Kelly. And Arif Noorani is the director of CBC Podcasts Theme music by Zibiwan Art by Elliot Whitehill Haichika, Jimmy Gwitch, DeBelvie Breber and Ken George

John Thomas, Dr. Kona Williams, Philip Cho Roger Correvo at CBC Sudbury And the CBC Reference Librarians, especially Diana Redigeld If you need support, you can access emotional and crisis referral services by calling the 24-hour National Indian Residential School Crisis Line, 1-866-925-4419. Or for more resources on Canada's Indian residential schools, go to our website, cbc.ca slash cupereisland. Thanks to all of you who rated and reviewed us. It helps

people find us, and we're sharing your messages of support with survivors. Miigwech bizindayik. Thanks for listening.