Uncover - S16: “Kuper Island” E6: It Didn't Feel Like Justice

Episode Date: August 2, 2022

We explore what really happened during a 1990s RCMP task force investigation triggered by the high number of allegations of sexual abuses at the Kuper Island Residential School, and track down a former staff member who witnessed the horrors firsthand. We learn one of the abusers at the school, Brother Glenn Doughty, is still alive. We try to reach him and learn troubling information about his whereabouts. For transcripts of this series, please visit: https://www.cbc.ca/radio/podcastnews/kuper-island-transcripts-listen-1.6622551

Hey, I'm Johanna Wagstaff. And hi there, I'm Rohith Joseph. And we're asking for 10 minutes of your day to go through the 10 things that the UN recommends we can all do when it comes to climate change. Please don't leave. No! And also the things aren't new. We are just wired to not do them. We promise you to help you figure out your brains and you and your people can make better choices to combat climate change.

10 Minutes to Save the Planet is available now on CBC Listen and everywhere you get your podcasts. This is a CBC Podcast. Before we start, this is a podcast about Canada's Indian residential schools and it contains descriptions of sexual violence, suicide and abuse. and it contains descriptions of sexual violence, suicide, and abuse. If you need support, you can find information about where to turn for help at cbc.ca slash keeperisland. In 1970, two days before Christmas, an article ran in the Victoria Daily Times about how staff at Cooper Island were trying to make the residential school feel like home for the holidays. The newspaper ran a photo with the story. It shows a white woman wearing glasses.

She's sort of tucked away, hovering over a table of Indigenous kids doing crafts. She's got an uneasy smile. The caption reads, Childcare worker Dolores Flans, age 21, watches Cut Out Fun. I'm glad I found you, Dolores. When you first called and said, I'm Duncan McHugh, I almost said, yeah, and I'm Santa Claus and hung up. But I recognize your voice, you know, you've been on the radio once or twice. I've been on a couple times. Dolores,

thank you for doing this. I feel it has to be done, and if I had a fever and was in the hospital, I'd probably do it. Dolores doesn't tell many people she worked at a residential school, but as a Catholic and an aging white lady, she's tired of doubters who question the stories of survivors. She wants to do her part by setting the record straight about the wrongs she witnessed at Cooper Island. There's also someone else at Cooper quoted in that newspaper article. Brother Glenn Dowdy, a man who'd later be convicted of sexually abusing multiple boys at the school. He calls his work there very rewarding. He says his job is to, quote, put them to bed, feed them, spank them, and love them. Turns out he's still alive too.

alive too. I'm Duncan McHugh, and this is Cuper Island. Episode 6, It Didn't Feel Like Justice. We found Dolores living in a small town on the remote tip of Vancouver Island. She only worked at the Cuper Island school for about a year in the early 70s, but what she witnessed has been gnawing at her her entire life. She got the job there when she met a nun on the streets of Victoria. Well, I was just placed with the little girls and just told basically what I had to do

was basic supervision of their behavior. They went to school during the day. I had to get them up in the morning. I had to superv was basic supervision of their behavior. They went to school during the day. I had to get them up in the morning. I had to supervise them at lunchtime. And then, of course, when they got out of school. No one checked her qualifications. But she did know that I had graduated from high school at St. Anne's. When Dolores arrived at Cuper Island,

she went upstairs to see where the little girls slept. It was so bare and desolate looking. Seeing 36 metal beds in a row, all with white bedspreads and white walls, it was, I don't know how to describe that feeling. You know, there was nothing to make them grin or smile. No color. I was shocked. What were the kids like? Can you describe them for me?

Pretty normal kids. She never felt comfortable with how the nuns treated the children. She would wash their mouths out for real with soap when they spoke their own language. And I don't know what to say about that. It made me want to throw up and it does now. How can you do that? For Christ's sake, and I mean for Christ's sake, how can somebody do that? Oh god, I remember her calling one of the girls a dirty little Indian. God damn it. I asked Dolores how the priests treated the staff and children.

Oh, God. I don't know how to answer that nicely. Yes, they had absolute power. you know, or at least they thought they did. You did exactly what they told you to do and nothing added and nothing taken away. If you didn't, you'd be screamed at. I remember needing to talk to their priests and they opened the door. They had a kind of a little living room and they had booze there. And I thought, well, that's interesting. They've told everybody not to drink at the, and they had booze there. And I thought, well, that's interesting. They've told everybody not to drink at the school,

and they had a whole pile of it sitting on the table, and as soon as they saw that I was looking, they took it off the table and put it on the floor. The perpetrator that I knew was excellent with the kids. He did a lot of crafts and a lot of stuff with them, but he had this other side to him that was very violent. The perpetrator that Dolores is referring to is brother Glenn Dowdy. She saw that other side of him one day in mid-September 1971.

It started when she heard some screaming coming from the boy's side. Help, help, stop, that hurts. It just was really bitter screaming. And I looked out the window to see if the boys were fighting, and there was no kids outside at all. So I followed the screaming noise inside the building until I came right in front of a male staff member's door. And it was coming from in there.

It was Glenn Dowdy's room. Delores stopped. She was scared. She paused to say a prayer. And just at that moment, the door opened and the staff member and the child came out. There was an incredible smell, okay? So then I knew. What were you referring to?

Semen. Semen. Semen. And I have never seen such abject fear as what I saw in that child. And I have never seen such abject evil as what was in that man. He was staring at me like he would, like he was hellfire himself. The boy also looked at Dolores. And he was staring at me like, do something.

I could see him leaning towards me. He was trying to get away, but doubt he wouldn't let him go. Fuck. And I didn't know what to do. Glenn was hanging on to him. And I was afraid if I went near him, he'd slug me. He was like a whole different human being. He looked like he was in a rage.

And did he say anything to you? No, he just glared hell at me. And believe me, oh, Jesus, scared shit out of me. Until this conversation with Dolores, everything I'd heard about Cooper Island was from the perspective of kids in a traumatic situation.

But Dolores was an adult at the time, someone old enough to do something about it. I went straight to the administrator's office. The administrator was Father Larry Mackey. And I started to tell him. I had been up on the boys' side and I had heard this. He literally jumped out of his office chair and screamed at me. I can't even duplicate it.

Pack up your things and get out. He was an asshole. I don't know. He may have already had known there was something going on, but didn't want to hear about it. I don't know. I quit after four more months there. I couldn't stand it. She left for university and did her best to block this awful memory. There are some very evil people in this world. I found that out then.

I basically think I went somewhat insane after that myself. My brain said, no, it didn't happen, and I went on with my business. As for Father Larry Mackey, he'd go from Cooper Island to run an addiction support center in Vancouver's troubled downtown east side. A lot of Indigenous people lived there. The center focused on helping people who had traumatic childhoods, including suffering sexual abuse. A few decades would pass until Dolores heard the name Glenn Dowdy again. I think it was in the 80s, in one of the Vancouver papers, newspapers.

It was the late 80s when former residential school students started breaking the silence about what happened to them as little kids. Phil Fontaine, then the leader of the Assembly of First Nations, the largest First Nation organization in Canada, was one of the first to speak publicly in a tell-all interview on national TV. The Journal, with Barbara Frum. I was asked how prevalent this was, and to illustrate my point,

I had suggested that if we took an example of my grade three class, every single one of the 20 would have experienced what I experienced. Are you saying every one of 20 was sexually abused? They've experienced some aspect of sexual abuse. It was a watershed moment. A flood of disclosures followed from residential schools across Canada.

In British Columbia, police were overwhelmed. They'd set out to investigate one claim against one guy at one school and discover it was the tip of the iceberg. So in 1995, the RCMP launched a special task force to look into crimes at all B.C. residential schools. The reason why we're gathered is the whole issue of regaining control of our lives. Natives have mixed feelings about whether the investigation will be worthwhile if those who abused them in residential schools are not brought to justice. Behind the scenes, investigators were struggling, according to an RCMP report that we uncovered.

Not only were churches protecting records, the Mounties accused the government of Canada of interfering in the investigations, especially the one in Decuper Island. Here's what was going on. Police were urging victims to come forward, to disclose what happened to them, to name names. But the Department of Justice wanted to get their hands on those witness statements, looking for negative bits of information about the victims' lives, anything to help the federal government defend itself in an ever-growing number of civil lawsuits. In other words, Cooper Island survivors were telling police their stories, thinking they'd be used to prosecute criminals, yet Canada wanted to use the statements

to limit compensation to these same survivors or avoid payouts altogether. To their credit, the Mounties saw it as a conflict of interest and spent two years fighting the justice lawyers. But then, during that process, they mistakenly handed over the confidential files. That threatened to derail the task force. How could victims trust police if police were sharing with the federal government?

And there is a tremendous amount of anger out there, and it's going to be there for a long time until we deal with these issues. In the end, after eight years, the task force collected over 500 separate allegations of sexual assault. That's just at residential schools in B.C. They identified over 200 suspects alleged to have committed sexual offenses. The RCMP admit many of the suspects in their investigation may never be charged or convicted. A third of them were already dead. Only 14 men were charged.

They're going to be in their more senior years. Some are going to be deceased. Some may be infirm or in that category where Crown counsel chooses not to, in the public's interest, to go ahead. At Kewpur, there were an alarmingly high number of sexual abuse complaints involving multiple suspects, but only one man was charged, Glenn Dowdy. After his time in BC, Dowdy had returned to his home province of Ontario. He became a counsellor and chaplain at a university in Thunder Bay, and he was convicted there of sexual offenses. We found a blog about abuse cases amongst Catholic clergy in Canada, where a mother in Thunder Bay described how Doughty abused her son in a youth group.

Here's my producer Jody reading parts of it, and his tactics sounded familiar. Here's my producer Jody reading parts of it, and his tactics sounded familiar. I'm a mother of a boy who was groomed and controlled by brother Glenn Dowdy. This was during the time when Glenn was heading up a boys' youth group originating at the church. Glenn took the boys to the church's camp. There, he would ply these 11, 12, 13-year-old boys with beer and other alcohol. He also told them he was a trained psychologist who was specialized in hypnotherapy. The children were told that God wanted them to do these things for him as he was under stress,

and he needed to be feeling well in order to do his job for God. By the 1990s, Dowdy had already served a few months in prison for sexually abusing boys at a residential school near Williams Lake, and four more months for abuse at Cooper Island. Now, with the larger police task force investigation, Dowdy was facing a new set of Cooper charges, 42 counts in all. Dolores Flans was in court to see him. What was it like to see him? He was, of course, in the very front bench, and he was slouched almost flat, and he was grey. He didn't even twitch a finger.

He looked like a dead body. And there were two other priests with him who were behind him, and they just looked at me. I didn't know what the hell they were thinking, but they knew he was guilty. And there were two other priests with him who were behind him. And they just looked at me. I didn't know what the hell they were thinking, but they knew he was guilty. I'm quite sure they did. Dowdy wound up pleading guilty to 11 counts of indecent assault and one count of buggery involving 11 different victims.

He received a three-year jail sentence to be served at William Head, a minimum security prison in B.C. sometimes referred to as Club Fed. And then the judge said after that he will be given back to a judge make a pronouncement, your hair will go on end. I'm telling you, they are serious folks. He said to Glendoughty, if you, sir, should ever offend and come before the federal court anywhere in Canada, you, sir, will be sentenced in such a way that you will die in prison. be sentenced in such a way that you will die in prison. And he told the oblate priest, if you want to take care of him, there must be someone in his presence at all times. You must take the door off of his sleeping room. He cannot even go to the bathroom alone.

He cannot even go to the bathroom alone. As all this was unfolding, some Cooper Island survivors were also suing Doughty, the Catholic Church, and government. A lawyer named David Patterson represented some of the survivors, including James and Tony Charlie. As he dug into the case, he found himself trying to understand what made Glenn Doughty tick. Glenn Doughty was a young man from Northern Ontario. I think he was from Timmins. He learned early on in his growing up, I guess, that he was homosexual. It frightened him. Homosexuality was a crime at the time. He decided that he would go off and join the Oblates, and he was immediately assigned to work in Indian residential schools as a

dormitory supervisor. And back in those days, there was no formal training process. Any adult could simply be assigned as a dormitory supervisor. I think he thought that he was in love with these boys, that he cherished them, that he hoped that they felt the same way about him. I think he was just a very confused young man. I mean, he was also a predator. I'm not trying to make excuses for him. A psychiatric report presented in one court hearing suggested Dowdy had his own troubled

childhood. He was molested by his father when he was a teenager. His mother had a violent temper. As an adult, he had an alcohol problem. The report found him to be a pedophile. alcohol problem. The report found him to be a pedophile. Hearing as many claims as you did, was there a pattern to his abuse? The majority of the people that Glenn Doughty was interested in was prepubescent boys. He was fond of entertaining the boys with magic tricks. And in fact, one of the allegations that was made by one person against him was for a period of time when he was not on the staff at the school. So the defense harped long and hard on that. And eventually it turned out that during the Easter break,

he had visited the school and there was a record in the school's minutes of him having performed magic tricks for the kids. And so the person's recollection as to the timing was proved to be accurate. So Glenn Doughty and his magic tricks was well known. So again, Doughty is the only one who's ever been charged for any acts at Cooper Island. Do you think that Glenn Doughty was the only sexual abuser or acts at Cooper Island. Do you think that Glenn Dowdy was the only sexual abuser or predator at Cooper Island? You know, I remember examining a supervisor at trial. He lived in a small room with a single bed. He was on duty from 3 p.m. until 8 a.m. the

next morning. He was not permitted to have visitors in his room. He had one day off a month. And you have to wonder for whom that kind of life would have been acceptable. And you tended to see among these supervisors basically two kinds. One were missionaries who floated through the place in a matter of a few years and on their way to something else. And others were lifers, which this person was, who stayed there for decades. And, you know, it was manna from heaven if you were a pedophile. In the civil lawsuits, numerous survivors raised multiple allegations against Dowdy. He admitted to some, denied others.

Lawyers for the Oblates, the Catholic Church, and the Canadian government were fighting tooth and nail to minimize compensation for survivors. They aggressively cross-examined them about other harms in their lives, using arguments like this. Well, okay, maybe this stuff happened, but that's not really the cause of the difficulties you face throughout your life. You were raised in poverty. Your parents had dysfunctional relationships. They had been to residential school. You may have been abused by your parents or by uncles.

How do you know that it's the sexual abuse you suffered that's responsible for your difficulties in life? The church and the government could only be liable for the harms that were suffered over and above the harms that would have been suffered by the children in any event, including harms that occurred at the residential school, such as physical abuse, cultural shaming, violence, that sort of thing. How much of what went wrong in your life is because you had lousy parents? You know, when you went out and got drunk, were you thinking of Glenn Doughty? The church and government were willing to concede residential school students literally had their culture beaten out of them.

But those admissions didn't cost a penny. The statute of limitations had expired. Harms from sexual abuse, on the other hand, would mean big payouts. The notion of having the church and the government vigorously argue that their mistreatment of these children in residential school was so bad that they would have come out basket cases anyways was distasteful, and I thought the court should have turned its back on that kind of argument. But at the end of the day, it didn't.

I think I must have answered 800 questions of all the same. James and Tony were amongst the first survivors in Canada to sue the church and government. Here's James on how it felt to face the lawyers. They asked me, what color pajamas did he have, what color slippers, what color his curtains, what color his bed. Why didn't you say no? Why didn't you tell somebody? And then, after that session is over of 800 questions,

then the Canadian government, our churches, vice versa, who went first, would ask the same bloody questions again. And finally, I said, what the F do you guys want from me? I haven't told you already what happened. Because I blew it when I told them that. Therefore, I was not a credible, what do you call it? Witness. Witness, yeah.

Compensation was based on a sliding scale of how bad their abuse was. Yeah, but you guys were the ones that led the way. You led the way to what ended up happening with the settlement for all survivors. Yeah, the scale was drawn from our discovery. You guys were first. Yeah. So, on a scale of 1 to 10, I was probably a 2, I guess. I was a 2.

Was that upsetting, to be downgraded to a 2? Yeah. They never told me I was a 2, but I had a very low settlement. How much did you end up getting in cash? Do you remember? I think 30-some-odd thousand. Yeah. Tony eventually settled too.

Having his past dissected in court took a toll. All your parents were poor. They were just drunk, alcoholics. They weren't very good parents. And those are the things that They're just drunks, alcoholics, you know. They weren't very good parents, you know. And those are the things that really I carried, even though they wanted to settle with me.

Why do I have to get more hurt when I come to a settlement? Why do you want to hurt me? The grilling they faced in the adversarial legal system later led Canada to design a kinder, gentler adjudication process to deal with thousands of survivors' compensation claims. But James and Tony's experience with the civil process was a bitter one, and learning of Glenn Dowdy's criminal sentence didn't make things better. He did get three years in prison. How did that feel when you heard that, that sentence?

Nothing. Nothing. Nothing. Hell, I could go get impaired tomorrow and not get three years for impaired driving, you know, because I'm First Nation. Legally, that was his punishment, three years. But I have to live my life today with all those pains and all those

memories, all those incidents forever. Every night, every day. In 2017, it felt like drugs were everywhere in the news. So I started a podcast called On Drugs. We covered a lot of ground over two seasons, but there are still so many more stories to tell. I'm Jeff Turner, and I'm back with season three of On Drugs. And this time, it's going to get personal. I don't know who Sober Jeff is.

I don't even know if I like that guy. On Drugs is available now wherever you get your podcasts. Just before the Cooper Island criminal charges surfaced in 2000, Glenn Dowdy took shelter at a place called Springhurst. Good afternoon, Springhurst. Hi, I was wondering if Brother Dowdy is in. Springhurst is a retirement home for Oblates in downtown Ottawa, owned by the Oblates of Mary Immaculate,

the order of missionaries that ranper Island and nearly 50 residential schools. He left last year. Last year, okay. He didn't leave any, did he leave a forwarding address or a number that I could reach out to him? No, no. Oh, dear. That's too bad. How was he doing when he left? Um, okay, I guess. He was in good health?

I guess. He was in good health? I guess so. We started digging into archives, the Catholic Church's phone directory for clergy, and oblate newsletters to figure out how many known sexual abusers have been housed at Springhurst. We found at least nine convicted sex offenders had taken refuge there, men who abused children in residential schools, northern Indigenous communities, or various parishes across the country. Okay, Mr. McHugh, I'll have him call you. Thanks very much for your help. All right, bye-bye.

I left my name and phone number and asked for an interview with someone there to understand how Springhurst operates, why they shelter convicted and alleged sexual offenders, and who pays for them to live out their old age in this comfortable setting overlooking the Rideau River. As for Glenn Dowdy, he wasn't there anymore, but he wasn't hiding. We found him on social media. One smiling photo had a slogan on it that said, Out, Proud, and In Recovery.

He referred to completing a degree in clinical pastoral counselling from the University of Ottawa. We found pictures of his paintings, including one that shows teepees in a field. There's another showing a boat off a rugged shore titled Memories of When I Lived on the West Coast. Someone commented asking him what he'd be painting next. He answered, I have a whole series on my experience with natives that I'm contemplating. We also found a phone number for Glenn Dowdy. I tried it, but it went to voicemail.

I decided not to leave a message and hung up. Here's me updating my producers, Martha and Jody, on what happened next. And then we were walking away and I said, you know what, let's just like, let's get the voice message down. Like it's a voice message. It's something, and I said, you know what? Let's just like, let's get the voice message down. Like it's a voice message. It's something right.

Like, you know, and he answered. Oh, no way. Wow. Okay. Okay. Hello. Yes. Hi.

Is Glenn Dowdy there? Speaking. Hi, Glenn. It's Duncan McHugh speaking. How are you? I'm doing very good. And he said, yes, yes. How can I help you?

And so anyway, he was out shopping and said, yeah, I'm a bit busy right now. And I said, are you out Christmas shopping? And he said, oh, yeah, I'm at the Rideau Centre. And then he said, do you want to call back? And I said, sure, I can call back. When?, oh, yeah, I'm at the Rideau Centre. And then he said, do you want to call back? And I said, sure, I can call back. When? He said, well, I'll call back in an hour. And then he said, by the way, what's this regarding?

And so I said, well, I'm doing a podcast on residential schools. And then his tone just totally changed. Like he was very kind of buoyant and, you know, a little bit breathless because he's obviously out and about. But he was in a good mood. And when I said that, his tone just totally changed and then he said i don't know if i want to talk about that he said i've had too much grief over it all and so we started getting into it a little bit and and well listen i appreciate what you're doing very much but i've had so much suffering, so much pain.

I don't want to go there. I'm 83 years old. I want to die in peace. At that point, I decided that, you know, the best thing to do was to try to build a rapport and get a phone call, you know, get any kind of conversation going. So I said, I can understand that. I can understand that there's been a lot of suffering. It did feel a little awkward, but at any rate, this is what kind of stuck out. I said, you know, I would like to know how you feel about truth and reconciliation, etc., etc.

Listen, Duncan, I need to have to really give that some serious thought. It's just been a horrible part of the past. The truth is the truth, and the lies are still the lies. Yeah. Sorry, what do you, lies are still the lies, meaning what? All kinds of accusations and comments and assumptions and presumptions that are wrong. Hmm. Yeah, this is why I think it's really important to sit and have a chat with you, Glenn. He said, well, he said, the truth is still the truth, but the lies are still the lies.

What does that mean? Well, I said, what do you mean by that? Lies are still the lies. And he said, well, there have been all kinds of accusations and presumptions, and they're all wrong. They're all wrong. And I said, do you mind if I phone you back? And he said, yeah. I said, how about midweek?

And I said, okay. Okay. Okay. We'll talk to you later. Okay. Okay. Bye now. So that's where we left it um but so so you hang up and then what's gracing through your mind

his tone surprised me you know like we've been reading the court reports about him expressing remorse apologizing on three separate occasions, on all the occasions that he was brought before the court, he pled guilty. You know, not to all the charges he was facing, but to enough charges to have to do jail time. I mean, he pled guilty. So when he said this line, you know, the truth is still truth, but the lies are still lies.

I was surprised because there was a, he, he feels wronged. My gut instinct is to try to continue to build rapport. Like I was, what's the word obsequious. I think I felt obsequious. Like I was trying to, you got to help me with that word. What's obsequious? Trying to curry favor. I was trying, like, you know, I was very, you know, there was nothing antagonistic.

I think, like, did you also leave with him to... I still hoped to convince Glenn Dowdy to do an interview. He'd asked me to phone back. But when I did, he curtly said he'd consulted his lawyer and psychologist. They advised him not to talk. Then he hung up on me. He didn't respond to any more of my requests. I didn't want our work to be a surprise or fresh source of pain for survivors who'd already been hurt so much.

I had to bring this back to James and Tony and let the cards fall where they may. I don't know if you guys want to hear this or not, but we also tracked down Glen Dowdy and figured out what he's been up to. I told them what we'd learned. I wasn't sure how they'd react. But I do have the phone conversation that I had with him on tape, if you'd like to listen to it. If you don't, that's understandable.

I can share it with you and you don't have to listen to it now, or you can not listen to it at all. Or I can tell you what he said. I don't think I'm going to get anything from him. I honestly don't think I can take anything realistically from him. Counseling or not, artist or not. You know, I don't think I'm going to get anything from him. Well, like you, I put Glenn Dowdy on the back burner.

I know what he has done. I have witnessed some of the things he has done, and I have no desire to leave here any anger or anything like that. I am in a good frame of mind when I come in. I want to leave in that frame of mind. I don't want to be hurt in any way. I don't want that. My wife will have to share that burden with me and I don't want to go there. So I'm like, Tony, I know enough about him and I don't want to go there. So I'm like, Tony, I know enough about him, and I don't want to know any more about him. I think he was surprised that I found him.

We're going to play a couple small portions of the phone conversation. It may piss you off. Mm-hmm. I'll just tell you that. Sure. So I'm very understandable and I understand where you're coming from

Thank you Yes, but I respect a lot of what you did and that's very important Tony and James didn't have any more questions about Glenn Doughty but I did. If the Oblates had pledged in court to keep watch over him, why weren't they?

In the next episode of Cuper Island, we get a candid explanation from Oblate leadership about why they didn't want brother Glenn Dowdy to leave Springhurst. How concerned are you that an Oblate brother that offended in every institution that he was in is now no longer in your care and is in the broader community? It's for this reason, Duncan, that we strongly urged Glenn, as strongly as we could, not to leave. Are you worried about recidivism? I'm worried about recidivism with any offender. And we take a closer look at the intergenerational effects of Canada's Indian residential schools.

At soccer practice, I lost one shin guard. My dad threw me across the room Then he beat me up until I found that Shingard This is for losing Shingard Cuper Island is produced by Martha Troian and Jody Martinson And hosted by me, Duncan McHugh Our senior producer is Jeff Turner. Our coordinating producer is Roshni Nair.

Our mixers are Evan Kelly and Kate McIntosh. And Arif Noorani is the director of CBC Podcasts. Theme music by Zibiwan. Art by Elliot Whitehill. Extra recording by Rob Hiltz with a studio assist from Gary Francis. Hajka, Jimmy Gwitchetch to James and Tony Charlie, Dolores Flans and David Patterson. If you need support, you can access emotional and crisis referral services

by calling the 24-hour National Indian Residential School Crisis Line, 1-866-925-4419. Or for more resources on Canada's Indian residential schools, go to our website cbc.ca slash Cuper Island. And if you liked this episode, please help others find it by rating and reviewing us. Miigwech.

Thanks for listening. For more CBC Podcasts, go to cbc.ca slash podcasts.