Uncover - S17: "The Kill List" E3: The Dissident Club

Episode Date: December 22, 2022

Mary meets those who have been told they are on a kill list. Exiles from Pakistan have sought safety through the Western world. But do they remain in danger, no matter how far they flee? For transcripts of this series, please visit: https://www.cbc.ca/radio/podcastnews/the-kill-list-transcripts-listen-1.6514561

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The following episode contains difficult subject matter, including references to suicide and torture. Please take care. Hello? Hello, Ahmed? Yeah? Yeah, Ahmed, it's Mary Link calling. I sent you an email a little while ago.

So can we talk on Signal instead of WhatsApp? Sure. Signal? Yeah, I'll show you right now. This is actually the secure app we all use. It's May 12, 2021. I'm talking to Akbar Okas Ghoraya in the safest way I can over encrypted phone calls. Okay, I'll call you back. Okay, thanks, bye.

He's a Pakistani human rights activist and blogger who lives in the Netherlands and he's upset the wrong people. It hasn't been easy to reach him. Are you still in hiding? Right. He says he was taken to the safe house, along with his family, by Dutch police. That was three months ago.

He tells me to use his middle name, Waqas. That's what his friends and family call him. Waqas is well known for his searing online criticism of the Pakistani military and government corruption. He's also extremely vocal against the illegal state abductions in Balochistan. But this outspokenness comes with a cost. but this outspokenness comes with a cost. In 2017, on a trip back to Pakistan, Waqas says he was kidnapped, along with four other activists,

in a coordinated raid by the ISI, the state's notorious intelligence agency, and thrown into a torture cell. How should we behead you? Bokas didn't expect to make it out alive, but he says he was released after more than a month of torture. Within 24 hours, he fled the country and went back home to the Netherlands, where he continued to write his blogs, where he thought he would be safe. In early 2020, he says he received what he took to be a warning

that criticized in Pakistan, even far away in Europe, would not be tolerated. It happened outside his home in Rotterdam. A friend had just dropped him off and driven away. Then, Waqas says, two men approached him, one of them filming him. I was on the phone, and suddenly someone comes, and he punches me in the face, and there is another guy standing there filming him. Bokas says he reported the assault to the police, but no one was ever caught. A year later, in February 2021, Wakas says the Dutch authorities warned him of a much more sinister threat,

something they had uncovered during an investigation into another matter, a plot to assassinate Wakas. Right. But after some time in isolation, Wakas began talking to a few people, including me. Living in hiding away from home has been difficult, especially for his children. How are they doing with it? Yeah, it's a different world. Yeah. Yeah. I really appreciate your trust in me.

Silence can be deadly, yeah. And meanwhile, if I'm killed, no one knows my story. My name is Mary Link, and this is The Kill List, Episode 3, The Dissident Club. I went into hiding in 2019. You were in hiding for four months in... In Pakistan and somewhere. Somewhere. I cannot say. Right, you can't say. To protect those who helped her,

Gulale Ismail cannot tell me how she escaped from Pakistan. She found her way eventually to the United States, where she applied for asylum. Galale is a Pashtun, one of the largest ethnic minorities in Pakistan. She grew up in a province northeast of Balochistan. And like Karima, like Malala, she became a prominent activist at a young age. I started a young woman-led organization with my sister in 2002 when I was 16 and my sister was 15. I had been working on political empowerment of women, on strengthening democracy.

Like the Baloch, tens of thousands of Pashtun have disappeared at the hands of the state, according to numbers cited by the Human Rights Commission of Pakistan. And when Gulale joined the protests against these abductions and killings, she became a target. When I extended my support, I started facing persecution by the state authorities of Pakistan. In early 2019, she too disappeared. She was grabbed by Pakistani authorities and thrown in cells in undisclosed locations.

Her illegal detention made news around the world, and she was released after two days. But nearly four months later, the security forces were after her again. I participated in a protest against the rape and murder of a 10-year-old girl in Islamabad. protest against the rape and murder of a 10-year-old girl in Islamabad. When I participated in the protest, I also highlighted the issue of sexual violence and harassment by the security forces in the tribal areas of Pakistan. And after that, I was booked in multiple cases of sedition, terrorism, promoting ethnic violence in the country, defaming the Pakistan military, and much more. Gulale went on the run. Soon photos of her face were everywhere, on the TV, at police stations,

at the airports, and she was placed on an exit control list, blocking her from leaving the country. For months, our house was raided multiple times. My friends were detained illegally and tortured to get information about me. So the situation was really complicated and difficult. And that's why I decided that I had to leave the country to save my life. this, I got to know that United Nations had written a letter to Pakistani authorities in which they had mentioned that I was placed on a state kill list. The kill list is, you know, is a term of art to really refer to people, individuals that the state wants to see silenced forever. My name is Agnès Calama. I am the Secretary General of Amnesty International, and I was previously the UN Special Rapporteur on Extrajudicial

Arbitrary or Summary Execution. Before leaving the UN in 2021, Agnes Kalamar led the inquiry into the assassination of Saudi journalist and dissident Jamal Khashoggi. He was killed and dismembered in the Saudi consulate in Istanbul, Turkey. Khashoggi. He was killed and dismembered in the Saudi consulate in Istanbul, Turkey. Agnes concluded the state of the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia was responsible for his murder. She has also investigated the Pakistani state's actions against dissidents. In May 2019, you were one of the signatures on a letter from the UN written to the Pakistani government that referred to a kill list created by the state that included Pakistan dissidents,

including Galali Ismail, and I've interviewed her about this. Can you tell me more about that? That's a pretty significant word to use to the government. Well, those allegations came from various sources that we verified. And I have to say, our letters are always drafted as a letter of allegation. So we're not pretending that we have all of the evidence at our hands. We're just saying to the government that these are very serious allegations. We, of course, keep the sources confidential.

We, of course, keep the sources confidential. It was very clear at the time that the allegations were sufficiently substantiated to prompt us to act and to write that letter. That letter from the UN reads in part, On 28 May 2019, it was reported that Ms. Golale Ismail's name has been placed on a state kill list with three other women and 11 men. What is shocking

for me as an activist is that the military maintains a list of people who they allegedly want to kill and I knew that my life was at risk. It was shocking to see my name on a state kill list. But what concerns me and what concerns other activists is why such lists exist.

Pakistani government officials responded to the accusations, writing, no such thing as a state kill list exists. The letter continues, Pakistan is a progressive democratic state, and such draconian measures, such as a state kill list, have never been part of any government policy. Look, the denial of the existence of a state kill list is to be expected. In all my career, I've never come across a government that recognises that they have such thing as kill list.

But, you know, the evidence that has been provided over and over again by human rights organisations, by special procedures over decades, I will say, do show that people are specifically targeted. The individuals that are abducted for the purpose of enforced disappearance, the individuals that are killed in the context of those fake encounters, these are people who are named at some level. They are not randomly picked. I mean, it may happen that some of them were just at the wrong place at the wrong time. All of those individuals are dissident defenders, activists, students, people who speak up, and that's why they are targeted. of abductions, fake encounters and killings against individuals

that are deemed to constitute a nuisance or a threat. And I don't see how Pakistan can deny that. There is so much evidence, including from its own Human Rights Commission of Pakistan and local NGOs. on Human Rights Commission of Pakistan and local NGOs. You know, so the denial is really of little consequence, frankly. The UN feared for Galali's safety in Pakistan, but the question remains,

could Pakistan actually target dissidents in the West? Many of us, we have fled the countries to flee the persecution by the state authorities. We want to de-escalate the threats to our lives. We want to live in safety. But when someone like Karima Baloch or Sajad Hussain, when they die a mysterious death, the message it sends to all of us is that we are not safe. So it sends waves of fears across exiled activists, giving us a message that even if we are in exile, the threat is still there. It can happen to us as well. We can be the next. is still there. It can happen to us as well.

We can be the next. When we found out about Karima Baloch's death, we were all very concerned and we were all very disturbed because this was coming after months of another Baloch's death, mysteriously again. So we didn't know what to think. Taha Siddiqui is a Pakistani journalist.

He lives in Paris and owns a cafe and bar there, which is also a gathering place for those in exile. It's called the Dissident Club. And for Taha and his fellow dissidents, the sudden drowning deaths of Karima and Sajid were unsettling. So, I mean, it's very convenient to say, you know, one person found in this lake, the other person found in a river. I mean, now it's kind of like a morbid joke,

but like the other day I was discussing with my friends because I recently got a threat when I mentioned this to my friend and they were like, yeah, just stay away from any lakes and canals or rivers. Tell me about who you worked with in Pakistan and the work you were doing. I was a journalist in Pakistan for the last 13, 14 years before I left. And initially I was working with the local media, but around 2011, 12, I started working with international media as a correspondent for several different Western outlets. Including The New York Times, The Guardian,

the television network France 24. I focus a lot on Pakistani military, terrorism, and minorities, and with it, human rights. And this didn't sit well with Pakistani authorities, he says, with ISI showing up frequently at his home. It all came to a head in Islamabad in 2018. So it was on January 10th, 2018, when I was on my way to the airport, Islamabad airport, and I was traveling to London for work. My taxi that I was traveling in was forcibly stopped by two cars, one in front

and one in the back on the Islamabad highway. And I was taken out of my taxi, beaten up. And then they put me in a car and they were taking me away. And luckily, one of the car doors was unlocked. And I kind of told the person who was sort of, you know, it was I was in a headlock with him and he was holding a gun on my stomach and I told him that he can relax because now I'm going with them. So at that moment when he relaxed and the car was just moving,

I jumped out of the car and I ran. And I ran as fast as I could. I heard them shout behind me, but I didn't look back. And then basically I got into a, on the other side of the road and there was traffic coming on. and basically I got into a on the other side of the road and there was traffic coming on and then I got into a taxi went a little bit far away the taxi driver ejected me because he was scared because I was bleeding and hurt and then eventually I managed to get to a phone because they're taking away everything from me and I got to a phone and I

called up a journalist friend of mine and asked him what to do and then they advised me to go to the police station where all the journalists would arrive and we file a report against it. After the attack, Taha flees to Paris where he's granted political asylum. But soon he's warned he might not be safe there either. Taha is told his name is on a list, different from the kill list, which we've just talked about, the one allegedly targeting dissidents in Pakistan. This list is said to target dissidents in the West. In 2017, it felt like drugs were everywhere in the news. So I started a podcast called On Drugs. We covered a lot of ground over two seasons,

but there are still so many more stories to tell. I'm Jeff Turner, and I'm back with Season 3 of On Drugs. And this time, it's going to get personal. I don't know who Sober Jeff is. I don't even know if I like that guy. On Drugs is available now wherever you get your podcasts. In late 2018, about a year after Taha had gone into exile, he flies to Washington for a conference. The next morning, he's awakened by his cell phone ringing.

And on the other line, this person who said that we're calling from this agency, intelligence agency, and we would like to have a meeting with you. He says a call came from an American intelligence agency. And at first I was like, what's this about? And they're like, we can't tell you over the phone, so we'll have to meet you and see you and tell you. So I had a friend of mine and I called him up

who worked with the State Department and he said, yeah, it's okay, you know, it's not like Pakistan that they'll take you away, so go ahead and meet. This is Taha's account of what happened next. We set up a rendezvous nearby at a cafe, and I went to meet them there. And so there were these two officials who showed me their IDs, but they also made me sign a non-disclosure agreement to not reveal where it came from. So that's why I don't name the agency.

Even the information they said was sensitive and it could disrupt their information gathering. But I made that decision about talking about it publicly because I think it does not just affect me, but it affects many exiled dissidents like me. And the information Taha says these two agents had for him? They told me that another agency intercepted communication. It was a communication about people talking about an assassination list and assassinating some Pakistanis if they returned back to Pakistan.

And they told me that you are on that list. When I asked them further about how they got the information or how did they intercept it, they were not willing to go into those details. But basically at that time, I was quite in shock when they told me this. And I was like, OK, so what do I do? And then so they were like, don't go back to Pakistan. And they were like, we would advise you not to go to Pakistan-friendly countries because, you know, Jamal Khashoggi had just happened.

And they were like, other countries might be emboldened to help Pakistan. And then they were like, also be careful in Paris. At the end of the meeting, they said to me that we'll inform the French counterparts and the French authorities will look into your case. But yeah, this is what we have to tell you. You are on that assassination list. So since I've been here in exile for the last three years, there have been multiple occasions where I've been informed

that I should take care of my safety. Taha says he's had regular meetings with French intelligence authorities and that he continues to receive threats in France. So constantly, you know, there are these threats and these direct and indirect threats. I mean, and right now I'm talking about the very direct ones, the indirectly, the messages they've sent me through my friends, through journalist friends, through colleagues, through family members. And then directly also sometimes on WhatsApp or on email,

sometimes military people reach out to me and most of the time they're like, come back, you need to come back and we can resolve this and reconcile this. But I think the main purpose behind asking me to come back is that probably I would not stay alive if I go back. And Taha says his parents back in Pakistan are living in fear. Taha, who is it, was it specifically who was visiting your parents? Was it the military? Was it ISI? Who was it giving them the warnings? So there are usually two inspectors, like low-level inspectors, who come to visit and they identify themselves as intelligence officials. I believe that they're

from the ISI because that's what the ISI does in Pakistan. He says a visit in 2021 included a more specific warning. They met with my family, with my parents, and this time around they said that, you know, if he thinks that he's in France and he's far away from our reach, tell him not to be mistaken. Tell him don't think he's out of our reach

if he's in France. Taha was the first person to tell me about this assassination list. After months of investigation, I was able to track down and talk to others on this list, living in exile in a wide range of Western countries. All had been told they were on the list by intelligence agents. Some, afraid for their safety, spoke to me off the record.

People are generally scared. So in this particular report, you will have fewer people. People are generally scared, so in this particular report, you will have fewer interviews on the record. This is one of the most high-profile people on the list, and he's willing to be on the record. I reached him while he was driving on the highway. We had someone narrate parts of this interview, as the original tape is hard to make out at times. Hussain Haqqani is a former Pakistani ambassador to the United States. He currently lives in New York. I asked him if he's been more cautious in the U.S. since finding out he's on the list.

I am. I am cautious. But here's the thing. My profile, my standing... I am. I am cautious. But here's the thing. My profile, my standing. I mean, those are relative protections for me. I mean, I'm very careful to make sure that I'm not going around on hiking trips where nobody knows where I am kind of thing. Like Taha, Hussein was told to avoid returning to Pakistan and countries friendly to Pakistan. And at that time, the countries they named were Turkey, China, and the UAE. And they said, don't travel to them or through them,

because the Pakistan intelligence people can work with local intelligence to your detriment. Hussein tells me more about how the Americans found out about the list allegedly created and circulated by Pakistan. They had circulated a list to their operatives in embassies, and the FBI got a hold of that. They had circulated a list to their operatives in embassies, and the FBI got a hold of that. And they had said, these are a list of people that need to be watched and contained. And was the list to assassinate if you come home? No, they don't think the list was specifically that.

The list essentially was of people who were to be, quote-unquote, watched and contained. Yeah, watched and contained. Watched and contained were phrases that the FBI got worried about. And they said we don't know what their idea of contained means. Watched and contained were the phrases that the FBI got worried about. And they said we don't know what their idea of containment means. Now, the Pakistani officials that you know, having been in government, I do have some guys, some officials who are still there.

And some of them just say things like, well, containment obviously doesn't mean bumping people off because they would get caught and they can't afford to do that. But how do you know? I mean, they've done it at home. So therefore, the dissident community definitely lives in fear. The dissident community definitely lives in fear. The dissident community definitely lives in fear. What kind of a threat would Karima pose to them, though, in Canada? So here's an important thing to understand. For them, you know, I'm a former ambassador. I write a few articles.

My wife is an ambassador. So here's an important thing to understand for them. You know I'm a former ambassador. I write a few articles. My wife is a human rights and religious rights scholar. She writes something. They don't like any of that criticism. They don't want the story told.

So the people who they think are effective at being able to tell a story, whether on social media or to human rights organizations. So not every Baluch is articulate in English, is able to present the case when they come in front of a human rights organization or in front of the media. So I think someone like Karima was a threat in that sense. So I think somebody like Karima was a threat in that sense. I think somebody like Karima wasn't threatened in that sense.

We wrote to the FBI, but they declined to comment about what Hussein Haqqani told us, including any information about the list. In 2019, the Washington Post published an op-ed by Taha Siddiqui in which he wrote about the list, stating that he was told by the Americans he would be assassinated if he ever returned to Pakistan, and that other Pakistani dissidents in exile were on this list. In response, Hussain Akhani says the Pakistani government denied there was any intent to kill these dissidents. was, oh God, these are all small people. Why should we dispose of any of them or do any harm? And when somebody asked... The government's response was, oh God, these are all small people. Why should we dispose of any of them or do any harm? And when somebody asked, a reporter asked them, what does watched and contained mean? And the Pakistani government turned around and said,

oh, watched and contained just means let's look at their activities and be aware of them, which is not the same thing. But the FBI's interpretation was darker. It is not the same thing, but the FBI's interpretation was darker. Was darker, yeah. And it was based on, they said, further intelligence they couldn't share. So they had intelligence that they couldn't share, but indicated a more serious threat, right? Yep. Yeah. Do you think that ISI is, or the Pakistan government is, doing any enforcement overseas?

Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. There are others, including myself, including friends of mine, who have had experiences which prove that the ISI does target dissidents in the West. And I am saying this with full responsibility. Gul Bakari is a British Pakistani journalist and vocal critic of the Pakistani military. She fled Pakistan after being abducted in Lahore on her way to a television station. What was going through your mind, Gul? Did you think you might disappear forever like so many? Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. That's what I thought. I was thinking, my God, this is actually happening to me. I'm going to get raped and I'm going to get killed. The international oak cry was immediate and she was released after several hours. Gul now lives in the UK, but like so many other Pakistani dissidents, she doesn't feel completely safe in the West. Over here in the UK, I know of two attempts that the military intelligence agency has made to find out my address.

Gul is careful not to let anyone know exactly where she lives. I would not put anything past them. I do know that Western intelligence agencies have in fact asked many dissidents, Pakistani dissidents, living in the West, in Canada, in the US, in Europe, in the UK, and in Australia, to always keep looking over their shoulders. Over the course of the past year, I've talked to dissidents in each of the countries she names

who confirm this. There is an assassination list. And it's important to talk about the lack of responsibility of going around threatening their own citizens. Ayesha Siddiqui is an acclaimed Pakistani political scientist and academic. She's an expert on Pakistan's military regime and now lives in exile in the UK. Ayesha tells me she has also received a warning, hers from British police. When I was informed that there was a threat to my life, I wouldn't go into greater details. She was told she should not go back to Pakistan.

Have you heard much about ISI and the military talking about dealing with dissidents abroad? I'm sure that there is a desire to dispose of people. But the question is, does Pakistan have the capacity to do it? Capacity, because, for example, it is dependent on, in many ways, it is dependent on good relations with the U.S. and U.K. I don't think it will attempt such crimes in U.S. and U.K. Rest of Europe, again, one has to think a bit more carefully. But generally, as European Union might react, they'll be much more careful. Will they do it in partnership? I'm not sure that

Pakistan is at a position where it would be allowed to go around and kill people. However, Karima and Sajid have died. That is already beneficial. I know for sure that people are being silenced abroad by using the example of Karima and Sajid. So people who have been deputed by intelligence agencies are trying to convince dissidents in exile that, you know, if Karima and Sajid could be killed, then, you know, what about them? And in my own case, I've had somebody tell my family members that, look, the military is so powerful that if they wanted to get her killed, they could have had it done abroad. So they're trying to build their image as a macho agency, which can do more than just show its dick. It can use the dick. So unofficially, they're owning it in some ways?

Unofficially, they're using it to their advantage. To scare people? Yeah, and it's working. I asked Gul about this. I asked Gul about this. Not just her, that I will relate an incident to you where a person who was closely connected to the present day government tweeted a few names. On top, it said, Karima Baloch, check. And then it had four or five names with my name in it as well, that these people are yet to be handled, right?

So, yes, it is bandied about. That tweet was sent out on the day Karima's body was pulled from Lake Ontario. It was attributed to a Pakistani businessman with connections to the government and military. He tweeted a list of names, beginning with Karima, followed by other well-known Pakistani dissidents still living in the West, including Taha Siddiqui, Gul Bakari, and Waukas Guraya.

Here's part of that list. Karima Baluch, done. Taha Siddiqui, waiting. Bakari, waiting. Gariyah, waiting. Good news coming, inshallah. Inshallah, meaning God willing. The tweet was soon taken down.

More explicit threats have come from Pakistani officials. On the record. Taha Siddiqui again. We have General Musharraf, who was the country's dictator, and giving an interview to a Pakistani TV anchor and saying that, you know, we should go after our dissidents in exile because that's what the world does. To clarify, in the interview, the term dissidents in exile is not used. Instead, Musharraf refers to, quote, enemy of the state living abroad. And then, you know,

the anchor says, yeah, but this is like you're talking about international assassinations. He's like, yeah, but we're not going to claim them, right? And then he laughs. We have a recording of that 2017 interview with the former president of Pakistan. General Pervez Musharraf came to power in 1999 through a successful military coup and stayed until 2008. The interview primarily took place in Urdu, but much of what Taha is referring to is said in English. Here is Musharraf talking to the Pakistani TV anchor. This is proactive diplomacy.

We agree. But getting killed is not proactive diplomacy. It is a proactive act of assassination. No, no. Everyone is doing it for heaven's sake. Everyone is doing this. Do you have someone in mind? I have many in mind. This is the way of the world, doing this. There has never been an official acknowledgement or endorsement from the Pakistani government of this policy of proactive diplomacy. But in the summer of 2021, I learned

of what may be proof of an assassination plot against a Pakistani exile in the West. What Kaskaraya calls me from his safe house. He's been in hiding for months in the Netherlands after police informed him of a plot to assassinate him. Hi, Wakas. Hi, how are you? Good, how are you? What's happening? The police have probably charged him on Monday that they're going to present him in the court.

He tells me there's been an update in the case. Police have arrested and charged a suspect. Where was he arrested? Waqas says the man accused is a UK citizen of Pakistani origin. Oh my God. The next day on July 16th, 2021, I was able to get confirmation from the Crown Prosecution Office in London that a charge had been filed on June 28th.

On July 19th, the charge was made public and hit the news. Moving on, Pakistani dissidents continue to face threats, even in exile. Among them is activist Ahmed Waqas Goraya. And in the latest, a British Pakistani man has now been charged with an attempt to murder. Mohammad Gohir Khan was charged with conspiring with unknown persons between February 16th and June 24th, 2021, to murder Waqas. 31-year-old Mohammad Gohir Khan was arrested following an investigation by the Scotland Yard's Counter-Terrorism Command Unit, as well as Dutch authorities.

Hi, Waqas. Wow. Do you know anything about this man? this man? Yeah, we did check some background. And he is confessing that he is doing it for the money. Doing for money. And who does he say is paying him? I don't know. Please tell me. According to

court records, Khan, the man charged, has a trail of dissolved businesses. In February of 2021, an order was issued by the UK's High Court of Justice declaring Khan bankrupt. In June, Khan travelled from London to Rotterdam to the area where Waqas lived, with the intent to kill him. Waqas tells me he believes the Pakistani state was behind the assassination attempt, but there's no proof of that. And so far, UK authorities haven't said who they believe hired Khan.

So I wait for the trial to start to learn more. But the charges do confirm authorities were concerned that Wakasa's life was in danger in the West. This is the first official confirmation. This is the first official confirmation, yes. It's huge. It's absolutely huge. It's huge. And I'm relieved in some ways because, you know,

maybe what cost this is going to, if this is the case, it might help you and your family for your safety. I also think so, that at least, like, there has always been secret talks, some trusted people knew. Now it's becoming official and legal. On August 8, 2021, a month after I spoke to Akas, I received another surprising call, this time from Gul Bakari. Hi, Mary. Hi, Gul, how are you? I'm good, Mary. I think I'm going are you? I'm good, Mary.

I think I'm going to be getting a call in two minutes. Okay. If it comes on time, I will have to drop this one. But just a heads up that the story in The Guardian yesterday about a kill list from Pakistan of Pakistani dissidents living in the UK. The UK newspaper, The Guardian, reported on August 7th, 2021, quote, The article's title was more blunt,

Dissident Pakistani Exiles in UK on Hit List. No specific exiles were named in the Guardian article, and that's why Gul was calling me. I was given information this morning that I'm on the top of that list. Oh my goodness. Yeah. It's come from two different sources, completely different independent sources. In a statement provided to The Guardian, the government of Pakistan adamantly denied the accusation, saying in part, and I quote, There is no question of any threat being made to any national of any state, including Pakistan's own nationals, living anywhere, on any pretext whatsoever. They asked Agnes Kalamar of MSD International and formerly of the UN if she thinks Pakistani authorities would dare to kill dissidents in the West.

Some people said they would never dare. Why does the West think that they wouldn't dare? Well, they will dare. In the same way that Saudi Arabia dared going after Jamal Khashoggi and so on and so forth, the Turkish authorities, Iranian authorities and so on. It is Chinese. It is a reality of the world we live in that governments do carry out operations extraterritorially and including for the purpose of extrajudicial executions. So these operations, extraterritorial operations, are common. They are increasing. They are reflecting the boldness of those governments

and their absolute determination to silence anyone. Anyone, she says, who these days define as a nuisance or threat to their authority. So it is not surprising that such operations will be conducted. I'm not suggesting that they will be conducted everywhere without any limitation. I think there will be a great deal of thought that will go into deciding who to target and where. And, you know, probably a few countries may deem more acceptable than others. Now, whether Canada is one of those, you know, I don't know, but the reality is that those extraterritorial operations are carried out

and will continue to be carried out until and unless we put in place much stronger responses to that. How come Baloch activists are choosing to commit suicide after a long struggle of fleeing to another country to save their lives? Human rights activist Gulale Ismail. to save their lives. Human rights activist Gulale Ismail. You know, when we come to exile,

it means we are choosing life or death. If we had to choose death, we would not have chosen exile. My work on this series began with Karima Baluch trying to unravel the circumstances around her death. Was it suicide or homicide? But as my investigation continued, I learned of an eerily similar case in Sweden, then of alleged kill lists targeting Pakistani dissidents

both at home and abroad. And finally, the arrest of a man accused of conspiring to murder a Pakistani dissident living on Western soil. The key questions left in my mind, what does this all mean in terms of Karima? And what did the police have that makes them certain her death was not an assassination? Coming up on The Kill List. One needs to be able to connect the dots with other parts of the world where assassinations of this type have been attempted or have actually taken place. You're the first person I'm talking to after a long time regarding her death.

She was my universe. She was everything to me. If you ask me, like, Karima was depressed? Yeah, Karima was depressed. I'm depressed. Everyone is depressed in our society, in our generation. Do you think that ISI is monitoring dissidents here

in a way that could be threatening to their lives? Yes, definitely. Pakistan's Ministry of Foreign Affairs did not respond to requests for an interview to discuss the allegations against the state that have been reported in this series. The Kill List is created by me, Mary Link, and written and produced along with Alina Ghosh.

Mixing and sound design by Julia Whitman. Studio direction by Nancy Regan. Our story editor is Chris Oak. Emily Connell is our digital producer. Fact-checking by Emily Mathieu. Legal advice from Sean Mormon. Special thanks to Latif Johar. Our senior producer is Cecil Fernandez

and the director of CBC Podcasts is Arif Noorani. If anything you've heard in this series has left you looking for someone to talk to, please visit cbc.ca slash tklresources. We have information there for those in need of support. And if you like this series, please help others find it by leaving us a review on your favorite podcast app. Thank you for listening. For more CBC Podcasts, go to cbc.ca slash podcasts.