Uncover - S17: "The Kill List" E4: ‘I am not a terrorist’

Episode Date: December 22, 2022

We learn about Karima’s final days from those closest to her, including a man who’s finally ready to speak. After escaping death in Pakistan, what evidence is there that Karima may have taken her own life? For transcripts of this series, please visit: https://www.cbc.ca/radio/podcastnews/the-kill-list-transcripts-listen-1.6514561

My name is Ian Urbina. I've reported on some pretty mind-blowing stories, but nothing like what happens at sea. If they got within 800 meters, that is when we would fire warning shots. Murder, slavery, human trafficking, and staggering environmental crimes. Men have told me that they've been beaten

with stingray tails, with chains. If you really want to understand crime, start where the law of the land ends, the outlaw Ocean. Available now on CBC Listen and everywhere you get your podcasts. This is a CBC Podcast. The following episode contains difficult subject matter, including references to torture and suicide. Please take care.

Please take care. I began this investigation more than a year ago with a single question. What happened to Karima Baluch? Trying to answer that has taken me down paths that continue to be both surprising and concerning. Discovering threats, very real threats, against Pakistani dissidents living in the West. An assassination plot, allegations of state-sanctioned kill lists, tens of thousands of missing people grabbed by the Pakistani state, most tortured, many killed, and an unsettling introduction to the ISI, Pakistan's feared intelligence agency with tentacles spread throughout the world. But let's return to where we began, to the woman who inspired this investigation, Karima Baluch.

What clues do her final days hold? Knowing what I know now about the capabilities of the ISI and the dangers faced by other dissidents in the West, are there any indications that the Pakistani state was involved in her death? Or did Karima herself choose not to come home that day? Walk me through, and I know it's not easy, Samir, but walk me through the last day that you were with Karima from the morning. Sunday, December 20, 2020, the last day Karima Baluch was seen alive. Karima would wake up that morning, and for a few days she said she cannot sleep.

Samir Mihrab, Karima's older brother. He was sharing a home with Karima in North Toronto, along with his wife and two young children. This was a very prolonged problem she was suffering from. It was not easy for her to sleep. Whenever she fell asleep and it was easy for her to, if there was a slight sound or anything, she's going to wake up. That day she went to a doctor.

Samir's wife drives Karima to a nearby doctor's office about two kilometers away. Karima tells her sister-in-law not to wait. She'll walk home. And then she went there to just see the doctor and ask for medication or help. After that, she's supposed to come for lunch. And then when she don't come for lunch, we got worried. We wait and wait. We thought, OK, she went for a walk. She went to downtown. She liked to just walk or sometimes go to the waterfront and sit there. And there was no way for her family to reach her.

Her phone was here because her phone was out of charge. She put her phone on charge and left. When she don't come for a while, we have to call the police that she's not coming back. What's happened, she's not coming back. Her family called the police around 10.30 that night. Her family called the police around 10.30 that night. The whole night we were waiting here at home, and we helped police to, you know, try our best to help them with whatever information.

Through witnesses, surveillance footage, and receipts, we have a sense of Karima's last few hours in the city. First, she meets with a doctor. The family says he later told them about the visit. The doctor gave her mild sleeping pills. The doctor gave her the option that if you want the stronger one or the mild one. She said, I want the mild one. Karima leaves the clinic and goes to a nearby pharmacy

to fill the prescription for sleeping pills and buy a bottle of water. She then makes her way downtown to Toronto's waterfront. Karima is last seen at 3 p.m. on CCTV footage boarding the ferry to Toronto Islands, a group of islands just off the shores of the city. It's a grey winter day, heavy clouds hang low in the sky, and the temperature hovers around 4 degrees Celsius. Karima would often go for walks on the islands. It was a favourite place of hers.

At this time of the year, the only ferry operating goes to Wards Island. It's a short ride from downtown Toronto, about 15 minutes through the icy waters of Lake Ontario. Little is known about what Karima did after getting off the ferry. But it's believed she made her way from Ward's Island to Centre Island about a 30-minute walk away. Centre Island is known for its large amusement park, which was closed for the season, and its scenic pier that juts out into the lake. Guardrails wazed high surround the pier

to prevent people from falling into the water, and Karima couldn't swim. It was there on the pier that police discovered Karima's purse. Inside, police found a pill bottle bearing her name. Earlier that day, Karima had been prescribed five sleeping pills. Three of them were missing. My name is Mary Link, and this is The Kill List, Episode 4, I Am Not a Terrorist. It was late November 2015 when Karima arrived in Canada. She had fled the dangers of her homeland, but her life in exile wouldn't be easy. It must have been incredibly difficult for her to leave Balochistan, to leave the movement and come to Canada as a refugee.

Exactly. You could see it in her face, you could feel it in her voice, anywhere, anytime. Zafar Jawed is a Baloch activist in Toronto who knew Karima. When you are having a meeting with her, you are meeting her in a social situation, she was like only half present. I always said to her that I feel like half of you is not here. She said, yes, and you know where it is. And mostly she missed not just her immediate family,

but most of the time she was worried about her colleagues because they were so, like, the life they were living, the struggle they were waging over in Balochistan was a very difficult one. It's not easy, and they were getting caught, taken away. Their homes were being raided. They were being arrested from different places in different ways. And most of, almost every single person with whom she worked, taken away, are still missing. None of them came back. Like four years, ten years, they're gone.

Karima also faced an uphill battle to stay in Canada once she landed. Just before her escape in 2015, Karima had been elected leader of the Baloch Students' Organization, Azad. The influential activist group had been banned two years earlier by Pakistan's National Counterterrorism Authority. The BSO, correct me if I'm wrong, is not listed as a terrorist organization in Canada. It is not listed under UN or other international sanctions regimes.

Chris Alexander is a former Canadian ambassador to Afghanistan and follows the region closely. I think any intellectually honest student of Pakistani history and Pakistani contemporary politics would agree that they are not terrorists, they are nationalists. It's a resistance movement. They are nationalists. It's a resistance movement.

Chris Alexander also served later as Canada's immigration minister from 2013 to 2015 and helped organize Karima's escape. But he was no longer minister when Karima arrived in Canada. Three weeks earlier, his Conservative Party had lost the election to the Liberals. And Karima's stay in Canada was no longer assured. Her activism with the BSO Assad was now being viewed under a much darker lens. Max Berger, Karima's immigration lawyer. Canada Border Services Agency, CBSA, took the unusual step of suspending her refugee claim because they were investigating whether or not she was inadmissible to Canada for being in a terrorist organization. And we were trying to

demonstrate to CBSA that she was not involved in terrorism in any way. And did you ask them, the CBSA, what evidence they had to make this claim? I did, and they produced no evidence whatsoever. Sometimes immigration does have a legitimate reason to further investigate someone, but in this case, it was just harassment. Well, that's strong words, harassment. Why do you think it was harassment? What's your sense as to why they would do that? I don't really know what was behind this harassment. Perhaps the immigration department was under some external pressure to try to dig up some dirt against Karima.

Over the course of their investigation, to dig up some dirt against Karima. Over the course of their investigation, the CBSA questioned Karima several times. One of those sessions was reported on in the Balochistan Times. According to the article, just before storming off, Karima angrily told them, I am not a terrorist. I asked Samir what toll all this took on Karima.

What was the impact on Karima to have this long process to try to get her immigration status and to be questioned in such a way that perhaps she came from a terrorist organization? She was disappointed. Her perspective about the Canadian system was shattered. She wasn't treated fairly. It's true, not all BSO activists escaping to Canada face the same obstacles. Karima wasn't the only one Canadian diplomats were helping escape Pakistan in the fall of 2015. There was another. Latif Johar was also a member of the BSO Assad,

but less prominent than Karima. He arrived in Canada shortly before Karima. But Lateef says he was never investigated by CBSA on terrorism allegations. In fact, his refugee claim was approved just a few months after arriving. But Karima was not so fortunate. Her immigration process dragged on and on.

Meanwhile, Pakistani authorities were continuing their campaign to silence her, using a tactic Karima had already been subjected to back home, the targeted abductions of her family members, in an attempt to make her stop her activism. Maganj Mahrab, Karima's youngest sister. When Karima was here in Balochistan, they warned Karima, if you don't stop your work, then there will be no man in your family. Then they take my cousin away, Ali. His name is Ali. At the time of Ali's abduction, he was in college and not involved in politics. Karima reacted to his kidnapping on Twitter, writing,

My 20-year-old cousin, Ali Baluch, is under illegal custody of Pakistani agencies and being tortured now. ISI wants me to give up my struggle or they will abduct and kill me along with my family. I just want to say that I am not scared of Pakistan. Despite her concern for her young cousin, Karima would not bend to the authorities. After being tortured for a month, Ali was eventually released. Then Ali came back.

But when Karima got to Canada in 2015, November... That's when the military intensified their efforts against Karima, threatening to abduct her beloved uncle, Noor Ahmed. Samir remembers his influence on their lives. Their uncle was only in his teens when Karima and Samir moved with their mother and siblings back to Balochistan from the UAE. He was this young guy that time when we went there. But he turned out to be this father figure to us because our dad was not there. My father was living in the Gulf.

So my uncle, he took responsibility for everything. If you go for help, he would help you. If Karima wants to go to a test, and he would, you know, sometimes we don't have enough money to pay our fees, like exam fees. He would borrow from someone else and pay for us. Their uncle was a primary school teacher in Balochistan.

We used to call him master because he was a teacher. But he was this kind soul who was very kind to us and he was very, very close to Karima. And that's why he became a target for the military, says Samir. Was he an activist? Was he political? He was not politically active. That's why he survived for this long, because he wasn't political. Her uncle stayed close to his home in Balochistan

to avoid any run-ins with the Pakistani military. But one day in July 2016, he felt it was his duty to attend a relative's funeral in a village close by. Maganj says on his way back home on a bus with 40 others, he alone was grabbed at a checkpoint by the Frontier Corps, Pakistan's paramilitary force in Balochistan. My sister Zahra was also with my uncle. She was the eyewitness. According to Maganj, the Pakistani authorities relayed messages to the family. If Karima returned to Pakistan, they would release her uncle.

But the family also knew Karima's life would be endangered if she returned. Samira says more than a year after his uncle's abduction, the Frontier Corps, the FC, contacted their mother, Jamila. And they told my mother, yeah, that you come to FC camp and do a photo session or a video or something like that, holding Pakistani flag and announcing Karima, and then they're going to release her brother. And my mother basically refused to go.

She said, if you want to release Master Noor Ahmad, he's not political, then I don't have to come and do a photo session. Because this is something you want to humiliate us. And sometimes desperate people do that. Moms, fathers, they do that. I don't blame them. Samir says his family also believe that even if their mother renounced Karima,

the military would not have released their uncle. And as much as his mother loved her brother, Jamila could not agree to the military's demands. She refused. She said, I cannot do that. It's not the truth. My mother said, no, I will never do this. Then they said, OK, you will see what can we do. You will see what we can do. can we do? You will see what we can do.

Back in Canada, Karima was still fighting for her refugee status. Her application was put on hold while she was being investigated by the Canada Border Services Agency. But eventually, CBSA dropped this pursuit. Do you know why they withdrew it? CBSA dropped this pursuit. Do you know why they withdrew it? I believe that we were able to convince CBSA that she was not a member of an organization involved in subversion or terrorism. Max Berger. CBSA might have been persuaded by hearing that BBC

called her one of the 100 most influential women of the year that particular year. There was also advocacy on her behalf by Bob Ray, the former Ontario premier. And perhaps all of those things together, plus the fact that CBSA was not able to collect any evidence against Karima, prompted them to unsuspend her refugee claim. So Karima was able to restart her application process. And on January 2nd, 2018, more than two years after escaping Pakistan, Karima was at the Toronto airport. She was preparing to fly to Montreal, where she would go before an immigration judge, who would finally decide if she would be accepted as a refugee or not.

It was when Karima was getting ready to board the plane that she heard the news. After a year and a half of detention and torture, her uncle Noor Ahmed's mutilated body had just been found, dumped near a main road leading into Mirabad, just east of their family village of Tump. The timing was chilling. I don't know it was a coincidence or they do it purposefully. You never know. You cannot be certain for sure. It was a classic kill and dump,

something the Pakistani military is infamous for. He don't have any bullet wounds. He have burn marks back, his back, several burn marks and other torture marks on his hand, legs and everywhere. But mostly he had these burn marks which resembled iron. He was not killed, you know, mercifully. That's what we call when a baluch dies from a bullet, we call they kill this guy mercifully. Some people they kill that way.

Yeah, they just put a bullet in their heads. And then we think, yeah, they kill, they show some mercy. But master's kids, they didn't show mercy. They torture him till he died. A message for Karima says Samir that her activism, even abroad, can have deadly consequences. But as was her nature, Karima pushed on. She loved our uncle, but she didn't show any tears. She said that it's a struggle. These things happen in struggles. She said to me to be brave and said to me, don't cry, be brave. I remember her words.

She said, it's a great cause. Our uncle gave his life for a great cause. What I want to say, if Karima was a weak person who could not face the life and could not face problems or whatever, that day she would break down, I think. But she went to Montreal, she presented herself in front of a court. She didn't break down.

Max Brugger remembers that day of the refugee hearing in Montreal. Karima showed up and she was quite resplendent. I usually don't remember what my clients wear at their refugee hearing, but Karima showed up in this beautiful traditional Balochi dress with hand-stitched embroidery. It was very colorful, and she was there to make a statement that she was representing not just herself, but her people and their struggles at this refugee hearing. The judge opened the hearing, and he invoked that cliche that one person's terrorist is another person's freedom fighter, and that he was there to determine what category Karima fit in. Karima got a good grilling by the judge. What were some things that you remember that stood out that Karima said to the judge that were particularly compelling?

Well, Karima is a very thoughtful person. Karima had a charisma about her. She was very intelligent, very well-spoken, very beautiful young woman. spoken, very beautiful young woman. And I remember in preparing Karima for the hearing, Karima would always put her people before herself. For example, she would talk about the struggles of the Balochee people and the persecution they faced, the persecution Karima's extended family faced and her own immediate family faced. And I always had to refocus the discussion for Karima by saying to her that at your refugee hearing, the judge is really mostly interested in what happened to you. Karima was a very selfless person and she put herself at the end of that narrative. and she put herself at the end of that narrative.

In the end, the judge determined that Karima was not a security risk and she was granted refugee status. But Max Berger says her next application for permanent residency was constantly and inexplicably delayed. There should have been no reason for any further delays in giving Karima her permanent residency. In those days, it normally would take between six months and a year before you got your permanent residency after you were accepted as a refugee. In Karima's case, it dragged and dragged and dragged. In Karima's case, it dragged and dragged and dragged. Karima told her lawyer she believed Pakistan was putting pressure on Canadian authorities to deny her asylum.

Max thought this was a possibility as well, but he says they had no evidence to prove it. The Canada Border Services Agency declined our request for an interview. In response to the reporting in the series, including accusations made by Karima's lawyer, a CBSA spokesperson said the Privacy Act prevents the agency from commenting on any individual's case. Karima was also receiving phone calls from Pakistani security forces telling her to come home, according to Samir. And Max says Pakistani authorities were continuing to try and find ways to stop her activism. During this time, the Pakistani government contacted Twitter to demand that Twitter cancel her account. Ultimately, Twitter refused. But all of these headaches, one after the other, were just piling up.

And it was very frustrating for Karima during those days. In September 2020, nearly five years after first arriving in Canada, Karima finally received her permanent residency. And she was still deeply engaged in her activism from afar, often posting videos online. Hi, my name is Karima Baruch. There is so much disturbing news coming from Baruchistan. And calling for the release of those illegally abducted. We don't want to receive Zahid and Zakir's and other students' mutilated bodies. We want them alive with us.

If they committed any crime, the army and intelligence agencies of Pakistan should bring them in court and give them right to trial. The silence of international right groups and media is encouraging Pakistan to commit these crimes. Beyond her activism, Karima was also slowly building a new life in Toronto. She was improving her English and had completed the requirements for an Ontario high school diploma. She was improving her English and had completed the requirements for an Ontario high school diploma. At the time of her death, Karima was finishing up her first semester at the University of Toronto, studying political science and economics.

It was stressful for someone still mastering a new language, but her friends and family say she was coping. There's one thing I haven't told you yet. Karima was married. Karima left behind a husband, and of course he was one of the first people I wanted to speak to, but shortly after Karima's death, he left Canada. After being told he would talk to me, I tried for months to reach him.

Finally, he texted back and agreed to an interview. But on the day we're supposed to speak, he's a no-show. This happens on a few occasions. Sometimes he goes silent. Other times he texts me back, describing the dark place he's in. So I just give him space. I wasn't sure if he'd ever speak to me. But eight months after Karima's death, he's ready to talk.

In 2017, it felt like drugs were everywhere in the news. So I started a podcast called On Drugs. We covered a lot of ground over two seasons, but there are still so many more stories to tell. I'm Jeff Turner, and I'm back with season three of On Drugs. And this time, it's going to get personal. I don't know who Sober Jeff is. I don't even know if I like that guy.

On Drugs is available now wherever you get your podcasts. First off, thank you for talking to me. I know it's been a very difficult eight months. Yeah. Thank you so much. It's been difficult. I was completely cut off from everybody. I was totally, totally, totally hopeless. You're the first person I'm talking to after a long time regarding her death.

I really appreciate that because I know it's not easy. I have no words to explain how beautiful she was from inside. For me, she was everything. Everything. This is the first in-depth interview Hamal Hader has done with a journalist since his wife's death. He's also a blue-chip activist living in exile. She was my universe. She was everything to me. And I was devastated when I... I still can't process this in my mind. I still think she's there. When I wake up in the morning, I have to struggle with the fact that she's still not here.

Yeah. Hamel is speaking to me from the Netherlands. Why did you choose to leave Canada? I just, I needed my family's support, actually. I tried to pursue the police and the Canadian authorities to do a thorough investigation, and I was in touch with a solicitor regarding Karima's case, but eventually I felt I need to go to be with my family.

Hamel flew to Dubai to see them and then returned to Europe, where he had been living before he moved to Canada. How has it been? Tell me what you've gone through since Karima passed away. passed away? Well I've suffered severe anxiety and depression because because it was totally unexpected and I didn't know what to do and there was public pressure about the investigation and stuff. I felt helpless so I saw a psychiatrist and got some help and took some medications. Still, I'm on some medications. Yeah, it was really difficult, but now I'm getting out of it. I'm just getting along.

Karima and Hamal first met at a protest in Balochistan. Both would end up having high-level positions in Baloch organizations. Well, I met Karima in 2006 when I was in Turbat, which is the second largest city of Balochistan. So I remember it was on the 14th of August, which is Pakistan Independence Day. But we were having a protest rally in the city center of Talbott city. So after we finished our demonstration, we were surrounded by FC personnel. FC, the Frontier Corps. FC, the Frontier Corps.

So they wanted to abduct me and the chairman of the Baloch National Movement, Ghulam Ahmad Baloch. So to avoid abduction, the two men ran to the nearby Gul Rang Hotel. Kareema helped gather a crowd of people, mostly women, to surround the hotel and keep the FC at bay. So the huge crowd actually protected us. So we went into a hotel.

It was a six-hour drama. Then it went to local media. It became a big news. Eventually, the FC personnel had to leave. Eventually, the FC personnel had to leave. So during the six hours, I was in a conference hall where I had a little chat with Karima. So we were in touch then afterwards. And what was your first impression of her, Hamal?

She was very brave. No woman was involved in politics, actually. Men carried out all the political activities. So this was the first time I saw a courageous woman taking part in a political activity. Not only taking part, but also encouraging women and standing bravely in front of the Pakistani authorities to protect our leaders. She was a leading woman, and so many other women were standing beside her. And it was a great bravery that she showed that day. Ten years later, in 2016, the two were married in a small ceremony in Toronto.

But then Hummel had to return to Europe, with plans to eventually immigrate to Canada. We stayed apart because of the immigration issues. I went to see her time and again, many times during this period as a visitor. But for most of the first four years of marriage, they were living apart. Finally, in early December 2020, with his application for permanent residency in the works, Hamal moved to Canada. I came, I think it was 5th of December 2020, 15 days before she went missing and her body was recovered. 15 days before that happened. The day Karima went missing, Hamal had just ended his two-week quarantine.

I had this thing in my mind that I was finally going to stay there. So I was thinking to do some activities, to go out with her, do some shoppings and go to see some places after the quarantine. So we were planning to go to Quebec and other places for a short trip. So we had many plans. And so we were also planning to find another house because she was staying with her brother and sister-in-law. It was a moment we had been dreaming for a long time. And the time was finally, finally come.

And I was hoping to get my PR and to get settled in Canada to live together after a long time we were trying to to be finally together yeah we were so excited about it especially Karima was so excited about it and were you hoping would you did you talk about children in your future? Yeah, we also did talk about children. And we have always been talking to have a child once we get together. Can you walk me through the last day that you saw Karima before she went missing, the morning of, and what that day was like and what happened?

So that morning I slept late. When I woke up, she was trying to go out, so she went out with her sister-in-law to see a doctor to see a GP. Then I said goodbye and she left. She was okay, completely okay. That was last when I saw her. And she used to like to go to Toronto Island. Was a favorite place for her to go walking? Yeah, she told me that she would take me to there once my quarantine is finished. She said this is a beautiful place to go for a walk. It's a nice place to visit.

So it was her favourite place. Especially in the pandemic, she used to go there quite often. Had she gone there recently? Because someone said she had gone there recently and stayed there late. But is that true? She had gone there, yeah, recently. But, yeah, she came late at 8 o'clock, I think. It was late, but not too late. I think it was normal for her. She loved nature.

She had been going there since 2015. Tell me if you don't mind. I mean, she was going to university, right? So that was difficult, but she wasn't having any extraordinary stresses, was she, say the week prior to her passing? She had a little stress, but that was absolutely normal. And I was there to help her. And she said she was doing OK with the exams. I think there was only one assignment left, which she was trying to do. And did you talk about emotions, your emotions?

Did you talk between each other about how you were feeling? Were you open with one another like that? Well, yeah, we talked about it, but she never got emotional. I still remember when it was her court hearing in Montreal. So I flew from London to Montreal in the morning and when I got there she was waiting for me at the airport. When I came out I saw her. She was a little bit sad and I asked her what's wrong. She told me that her uncle's body was thrown in a desolated place because she had been getting threats from the Pakistani security agencies time and again that they would kill her uncle if she didn't leave politics, if she didn't quit politics.

So that happened that day when she was going to a court hearing. But she was a little bit sad, but she was completely okay. I mean, she didn't cry, didn't do anything. And I asked her why. I mean, because it was her uncle. She said she had made her mind that her uncle would be killed, but she had to face the situation. And she was okay with that.

And she was, I mean, she was so strong emotionally. And there were many instances, many of her friends, political colleagues were abducted, but she always stayed calm. Was there any indication that she was suicidal to you? No, I don't think she was suicidal. She was okay mentally, physically. She was happy. She was thriving and and very happy person I don't think someone like

her would go and commit suicide that's unbelievable I I can't believe it I don't think she is committed suicide. She was not depressive. She had never used any medications. I had and many of our friends had because of the mental anguish that we had. We had been suffering due to our friends who were missing, being killed back in Balochistan. We had been in contact with our psychiatrist and taking pills and trying to control our anxieties and depressions.

But Karima had never used any medications or never had seen, she had never seen any psychiatrist. And she never expressed anything to me that she was depressed or anxious or anything. I asked Samir about this as well. Was she depressed? She, if you say depressed, yeah. Everyone in our society is depressed in our generation. And this is true for each and every person in Baloch society. If you ask me, like, Karima was depressed?

Yeah, Karima was depressed. I'm depressed. Everyone is depressed in our society, in our generation. If you meet a person who's coming from Balochistan, from those areas where these war zones have been created, you can see it in their face. They have lost sleep. For example, I know people who are in Toronto who are going through this, I must say, Karima must be suffering from PTSD. So for her, the cause was so important that she paid little attention to her self-care. The Sunday that Karima went missing, the police questioned Samir, Samir's wife, and Hamal. Then afterwards they didn't ask any questions.

And the next day when we got to know that our body was recovered, no questions asked, no investigations done, and nobody was questioned or interviewed after that. Instead, Samir says police informed the family that they believed she died by suicide. They don't, like, come or ask or do an interview or anything. They just said, OK, they call us and try to convince us that this is a self-harm. He says the police then insinuated that he must have reached the same conclusion. But Samir says the evidence police provided wasn't conclusive of suicide to him. Hamal set off on his own investigation. He went to speak with the doctor Karima had met with, the last person they knew she had spoken to.

I went to see the doctor the next day. The doctor told me that she was absolutely fine and he didn't see anything serious about her. She was normal. She was acting normal. She had some sleeping issues and headache issues, but he said she was not depressed or anxious or anything. She had some sleeping issues and headache issues, but yeah. He said she was not depressed or anxious or anything. Even the doctor said that I suggested her to take some stronger pills, but she disagreed.

And she told the doctor that she was fine with the normal sleeping pills. So, I mean, she was not depressed at all. Hummel says he also tried to convince police of Karima's high profile as a dissident and the dangers that come with it. And you had explained to them that she was a very prominent dissident, that you were concerned it could have been foul play? Yes, I talked to them and I explained to them that she, I also told them that she had threats. It could be something very serious. She might have been, I mean, harmed by someone else.

So that's why it should be investigated. I told them time and again. The next day when it was all over the media, the police called me and told me that, you know, do you know what is foul play? I said, yes, I do know that. And they said, you know, there is no foul play in this. And our police chief is going to do a press conference by announcing that there is no foul play and it was an ordinary case and all the evidence suggests that she had committed suicide. I told them that if they do a press conference, then we would do a press conference as well, explaining our situation. Half an hour later, they called me again and they said they had cancelled their press conference and then trying to do some investigation. They'll think about it and they will let

me know, they let us know, but nothing happened. Yeah I still don't know why after After 16 hours, they announced that there's no foul play in her death and it's an ordinary case. And I don't understand why they decided this much quickly. And we were in contact with the police, why they make this decision so hastily. Then they said, no, we have seen some cameras and we have some footages and that's all. But they don't have footages of her actual when she drowned, do they?

No, they didn't have. They just had one footage where she was entering to board the ferry. That was the only footage. And there were some transactions and the details of her traveling by train, something like that. And these were the evidence that they had. But I don't think this is enough for them to quickly come to a decision that she had committed suicide. Three weeks later, Karima's death certificate was issued, ruling her death a suicide. She would not commit suicide. If you ask her brother, I know her. She would not commit suicide. Samir says the missing sleeping pills do not make sense to him as evidence of suicide.

So let's say she wants to self-harm, why she won't take the whole bottle of pill? If not to kill herself, but to numb herself at least. She never wants to die. No, no, never. Karima's youngest sister, Maganj, she lives in Pakistan. In the five years, we always talk every day. We talk about each and every topic.

I still remember when someone died from suicide, she said they have to be there to face the circumstances, not run away from them. McGonigal says the two had even discussed the subject of suicide by drowning after Karima's friend Sajid was discovered in a river in Sweden. She said the police is trying to say that maybe it is an act of suicide. police is trying to say that maybe it is an act of suicide but i still remember karima said that sajid cannot take such a step because she said the water is so cold and she said i even cut my my finger in cold water because it's so hard she said the water in sweden is cold. How can Sajid take his own life in such a way? She said he didn't take his life. If he did, then he don't choose this way

because it's so hard. In other words, Karima had questioned if one were to commit suicide, why choose to die in such a way, drowning in frigid water? Then I googled when a person dies from water, how much time they suffer. When Google told me that it takes 12 minutes, I cried very much. I said, she suffered too much.

Mugunj also says she can't imagine Karima taking her own life because of the last conversation the two had the day her sister went missing. Mugunj talked to Karima just before she left home that morning. She said she is going out and will come back and she will talk with me on video call because she buy gifts for us, the Christmas gift. The plan was for Karima to FaceTime her sister later and show her the gifts she had bought from Aganj and the rest of the family in Pakistan before she mailed them. Karima said to me, don't sleep, I will come back and make a video call. She said, I will come late, but you don't sleep. I want to give surprise.

Full of anticipation, Maganj stayed up waiting for the call. It never came. When she said to me, don't sleep, I will come back. When I heard that she is no more, for many nights I didn't sleep. I said, I thought maybe she will come back. I didn't believe that she is not more. I have that hope maybe she is alive.

Because she always, when she makes promises with me, she always completes them. And Karima told Muganj that when the day came, she wanted to die in Balochistan. She was not happy leaving Balochistan. When she was leaving for Canada, she see her school, she see her home, and everything like she said, I want to live my last moment in Tump. Tump is Karima's ancestral home in Balochistan. She said my soul is here and my home. Home. After the Toronto police announced they had found no evidence of foul play in Karima's death, international human rights organizations demanded a more thorough investigation. But despite this outcry, Karima's husband, Hamal, says the Canadian

government did not react with action. It was a high profile case. They should have supported this by announcing publicly for a thorough investigation. The government should have done this because she was living in Canada and there was a public outcry. And even there was an appeal from Amnesty International for a thorough investigation, and the Canadian government ignored it. I asked Chris Alexander, the former cabinet minister, why he thinks police rule don't foul play. I do not know, but I don't think it was one of the finest moments for the Toronto

Police Service. I think it was given to a frontline officer who looked at the immediate evidence before him or her and came to the wrong conclusion. Even a skilled homicide detective isn't necessarily going to come to grips with this. One needs to be able to connect the dots with other parts of the world where assassinations of this type have been attempted or have actually taken place. Those of us who look at this from a different perspective, a non-police perspective, see that there clearly is a larger context that should be taken into account. I mean, let's be honest, the Toronto Police Service is not tracking the activities of ISI across Canada. Chris Alexander says that possible involvement of the ISI, Pakistan's intelligence agency, needs to be taken into account. What do you think ISI's presence is in Canada right now? I think it's extensive. I think it's both in Pakistan's High Commission and in the consulates

general and probably outside of the diplomatic structures that Pakistan has in Canada. This is an important part of the diaspora. North America is important to Pakistan for obvious reasons. And so they operate here. Do you think that ISI is monitoring dissidents here in a way that could be threatening to their lives? Yes, definitely. Do you think she committed suicide? Absolutely not. I think she was killed.

It's a huge claim to make, right? I think it's even worse to naively pretend that that's not a possibility or that the evidence points in a different direction when it very clearly points in this direction. We're living in a time when Pakistani opposition members in London, Russian opposition members in London and a dozen other countries around the world, Iranian dissidents, activists, reformers have been targeted and killed repeatedly and it's happening more often today than it was happening five years ago or ten years ago. So let's not wish it away, let's not cover our eyes, let's confront it. I know that there are

confront it. I know that there are people at all levels in the Canadian security intelligence community who think that this is a suspicious death and that it's very likely that it was an assassination. A spokesperson for Canada's intelligence agency, CSIS, said they could not comment on individual cases. According to those close to Karima, CSIS did have a relationship with her. They said an agent met with Karima a number of times at cafes in Toronto and that they discussed her activism, BSO, and threats she was still receiving. activism, BSO, and threats she was still receiving. So why was foul play ruled out by the Toronto Police? Forensic pathologists say drowning is one of the hardest homicides to prove. The Swedish authorities took months before they

reached the conclusion of no foul play in Sajet's case. of no foul play in Sajed's case. Is there something in Karima's police report that could shed some light? Only a family member could ask the police for it. After months of talking about it, Samir agreed that it was important to try and obtain it. And almost a year to the day that Karima died, Samir files a Freedom of Information request

to see the police report. together we will do that because this is something I'll never will agree to do it public but I want you to have a look because you are doing this story I don't want you to you know any aspect of this case should be you know in dark for you you should have a look and you you decide you tell me if you see something you tell me if you see something you tell me you know this is very convincing Sameer I think you were being emotional here I will I will accept it I will accept it you will accept it if it points to suicide yeah yeah you tell me if it makes sense to you you say it Sameer you know what, I feel like it's a suicide. They have done enough thorough work here.

And you being the brother, and emotional, I will accept it. It's okay. But do you think that's going to be the case? I don't know. Let's sit. And so we sit, waiting for the answers held by the police report. Coming up on The Kill List. Even if you say you expect justice for Karima or what happened to Karima, it's not only Karima.

Our whole society is hostage of this state. The Pakistani government also mounts quite a vociferous lobbying effort with Western governments to try and quell any investigations of things that are related to Balochistan. When we received the body, the ISI officer came to me and said, I will give you a flag. You lay the flag on our box. I said, no, I will never do this because she wants freedom for Balochistan. She was not Pakistan's daughter. Pakistan's Ministry of Foreign Affairs did not respond to requests for an interview to discuss the allegations against the state that have been reported in this series. The Kill List is created by me, Mary Link, and written and produced along with Alina Ghosh.

Mixing and sound design by Julia Whitman. Studio direction by Nancy Regan. Our story editor is Chris Oak. Emily Connell is our digital producer. Fact-checking by Emily Mathieu. Legal advice from Sean Mormon. Special thanks to Lateef Johar. Our senior producer is Cecil Fernandez.

And the director of CBC Podcasts is Arif Noorani. If anything you've heard in this series Thank you. those in need of support. And if you like this series, please help others find it by leaving us a review on your favorite podcast app. Thank you for listening.