Uncover - S18: "Pressure Cooker" Bonus: Finding Kaz

Episode Date: January 13, 2023

A mystery lingers about what role Canada's spy agency may have played in John and Amanda's case. The puzzling character known as Kaz could be the key to solving that mystery.

My name is Graham Isidor. I have a progressive eye disease called keratoconus. Unmaying I'm losing my vision has been hard, but explaining it to other people has been harder. Lately, I've been trying to talk about it. Short Sighted is an attempt to explain what vision loss feels like by exploring how it sounds. By sharing my story, we get into all the things you don't see

about hidden disabilities. Short Sighted, from CBC's Personally, available now. This is a CBC Podcast. Over the years that we spent reporting on John Nuttall and Amanda Karody, and their entrapment by Canada's National Police Force, the RCMP, one name came up again and again in police reports, phone records, and testimony. I can't tell you his real name

for reasons you'll hear in this episode, but throughout this series, we've been calling him Kaz. John and Amanda have a lot to say about Kaz, but their most alarming allegation is that they believe he was working for CSIS, the Canadian Security Intelligence Service, Canada's spy agency. And in the months leading up to the RCMP's big undercover operation, Project Souvenir, they say Kaz wasn't just spying on them, but actually inciting them to commit violence. He showed us videos of Palestinians with their legs blown off.

He was talking about how he wanted to put bombs in shopping malls and blow people up and stuff. And he's always trying to push this violent shit on me. He was putting our lives by CSIS. Yeah. We haven't been able to ignore these claims or the questions they raise. Like, who is this guy, Kaz? Why has he been accused of spying? And did he and CSIS play any role in radicalizing John and Amanda?

What you're about to hear is our quest to answer these lingering questions. It's a story that begins at 10 a.m. on a sunny Saturday in August. Producer Sarah Berman and I are at a bustling park in a Vancouver suburb. We're sitting in a baking hot car in the parking lot. What kind of business does one do at a park at 10 a.m.? I'm curious. There's like events happening here today. There's people with tents and tarps set up. We're overlooking some tennis players and a really nice garden to our left. For months, we've been trying to track down the mysterious character we call Kaz.

And we finally caught a break when we found his brother online. He wouldn't tell us anything on the phone, but he agreed to set up a meeting in a park. This park. It all feels very cloak and dagger. Remember, there was a time when John believed Kaz had left the country to join an international terror group. At the very least,

we suspect he might have been working as an informant for CSIS. So we make a security plan and agree not to go to a second location, just in case. Okay, so what are we trying to learn from Kaz? If we get him to answer some questions, we really want to know what his role in relationship was with John in 2012 leading up to this RCMP investigation, right? Absolutely. I mean, we want to confirm some of the things that John has asserted, which is like, was this guy hanging out with John 10 hours a day, seven days a week before Project Souvenir got started? Were they watching jihadist videos? Was he showing him those videos? And I mean, the million dollar

question is, was he reporting back to CSIS? Was he an informant for CSIS? Or is that just John's overactive and paranoid imagination? Yeah because John and Amanda they do believe that Kaz was put in their life by CSIS. We might find out that he wasn't working for CSIS. He might staunchly deny it. He might have been just another kind of radicalized guy like John in which case is he gonna tell us that?, like, he might get spooked and run away as soon as we tell him we're reporters, you know? Or he might, I don't know, like, is there a world in which he just, like, answers all our questions and says, yeah, he was working for CSIS? I mean, that's the dream, right?

But, I mean, ultimately, we just want to ask him these questions and get his side of the story. So we've got about 10 minutes. I just want to ask him these questions and get his side of the story. So we've got about 10 minutes. I think it's probably time we should turn off our microphones, find a comfortable, well-viewable place to sit. I'm just a little bit not sure what's going to happen here. Me either. Okay, crossing fingers and toes. Let's do it.

Getting out of that car, we had a lot of ideas about what we might learn about Kaz. Looking back now, we were wrong about everything. I'm Dan Pearce, and this is Pressure Cooker. Before we dive into our investigation of Kaz, there's some big news from John and Amanda we want to share with you. They're suing some of the major players that were featured in this series. Peter Eccles, Bill Colcat, Stephen Matheson, and all the undercovers are listed as defendants. So far, the RCMP and prosecutors haven't filed responses, and they've declined to talk to us. John and Amanda are seeking damages for the harm they claim the government intentionally inflicted.

And their lawyer, Nathan Muirhead, told us that, even though they're free now, they're still known to the public as terrorists. They were put in fear of their lives. They were manipulated by the RCMP. They were kept from getting proper religious guidance. They were fed false ideology of radical Islam. And then they were kept in jail for three years while the criminal process unfolded. They spent some of that time in solitary confinement.

And they're still living with the trauma of that experience and what that put them through. Once this case gets moving through the courts, some new documents could be produced. We might gain new insights into Project Souvenir and what came before it, like what role CSIS played. Nathan agrees with us that there are lots of unanswered questions about CSIS. He described the early contact between the RCMP and CSIS as a black box. What we know now is that the RCMP took these two vulnerable and very suggestible people and instead of working to de-radicalize them, to integrate them with the community and to

make sure that they weren't a threat to anyone in Canada, they manufactured a terrorist plot. If the underlying root cause of the radicalization was in whole or in part a CSIS agent, that would raise even more significant concerns about the activities of the government. This question of what CSIS was doing in the months leading up to Project Souvenir, and whether they played any part in radicalizing or inciting John and Amanda, is something that has troubled us from our very first interview with the couple. This nagging feeling has led us on a wild journey to track Kaz down and ask him for

ourselves. Our first break came when I was able to find Kaz's brother on Facebook. We're going to call him Rahim. After exchanging a few messages, Rahim told me he could take us to visit his brother. He suggested that we meet him in a public park on a Saturday morning in August. This brings us back to that baking hot car we were sitting in at the top of the episode. Okay, crossing fingers and toes. Let's do it. Sarah and I wait on a park bench surrounded by manicured gardens and big trees.

Rahim is over an hour late, and we're starting to lose hope that he's going to show. But finally, we see him. A North African man in his mid-30s, dressed in khakis and a button-up shirt, walking our way, alone. We start by introducing ourselves and tell him that we're CBC journalists. The second thing we ask is obvious. Will Kaz be joining us today? Almost immediately, we see tears in Rahim's eyes, and what he tells us lands like a ton of bricks. It starts back in 2015, sometime after midnight in another Vancouver suburb,

when Kaz got in an argument with some guys outside a nightclub in New Westminster and was violently attacked. They get like some argument between them. And outside, one of the guys hit him on the back. And when he fell down, he hit the other side of the concrete. So he got hit in the back of the head. On the back, yeah. And then fell and then hit the other side of his head on the concrete. On the concrete, yes.

They didn't call the ambulance or they didn't help him anywhere. Just left him like that. Police found Kaz lying unconscious on the street. He was bleeding out. An ambulance finally brought him to the hospital, and he went through multiple brain surgeries. He was in a coma for a while, and when Kaz eventually came to, he was unable to move or speak.

How did it feel to get the news that night? Oh, really, it was very shocked, man. Like, when you find, like, oh, this young guy is, like, just his life, like, going like that is very tough. And he's unable to speak right now? Right now, no, no, no, actually. Yes, they are kind of, like, just look at you. So Kaz is conscious, but remains non-verbal and totally immobilized.

Just horrifying. He can recognize people he knows and sometimes cries when they enter the room. We asked Rahim to tell us more about what his brother was like before his assault. Very normal, yeah. He has a school for English, upgrading his English. And normal activity, he has friends and playing soccer, those kind of things. And can you tell us more about what kind of friends he kept? Some of them, like, from university, Victoria.

And he has friends over here in Vancouver. There's so many friends, so I meet some of them, but not all of them. Despite this disturbing new information about Kaz, we eventually get to the thrust of what we want to talk about. And did the name ever come up, John Nuttall? Actually, no, no. I didn't hear about this name before. This is my first time actually to hear this kind of name. Did he ever talk about working for CSIS, Canada's intelligence agency?

No, no. Just like normal, and we used to live together. Rahim says he doesn't know anything about John, CSIS, extremism, or anything like that. Kaz was there to work hard, study English, and send something back to his family. The two brothers were tight. They lived together in an apartment and even shared a car. The food we eat together, clothes we go buy,

a lot of stuff, we are like twins. Yes, yeah. There are a few things from John's story that do line up, though. At least partially. John told us Kaz worked at a pancake house. Actually, according to Rahim, it was a waffle company. There were those scars that John said Kaz had got from fighting overseas. Rahim tells us his brother did have scars, but it wasn't from war or terrorism.

It was from an operation he had done when he first arrived in Canada. And it was big surgery, actually, yeah. It was big surgery, yeah. John also told Abe that Kaz went to Sudan to get married and join an extremist group. The RCMP looked into that claim and found that Kaz never left the country at the time. Rahim confirms that Kaz never went back to Africa at the time of Project Souvenir. But they were making plans to go back and get married.

Except Kaz never got to go. We were working hard to save some money to go back and get married together. But when he had that accident, so... I'm so sorry. We circle back to the assault and ask Rahim what happened to Kaz's attackers. He tells us the whole thing was captured on security camera footage. But he says no one went to prison for the crime. The police told him if he wanted anything else, he'd have to go to civil court.

Do you have plans to pursue civil court? We're starting to feel like we've kept Rahim long enough. So we ask one last question. What do you want people to know about your brother? Smiling always, good personality, really. I wish if he's awake or he's got to talk to you guys and you see him. He's a different person, yeah, I guess. Very nice person. So I hope he will get back to life and meet his old friends. Yes, yeah, one day, yeah.

With that, we say goodbye to Rahim and go our separate ways. Sarah and I head back to the car. Our heads are spinning. What just happened? Dan? What have we gotten ourselves into? We're going to have to come to terms with the fact that it's looking like this is not a side of the story that we're going to be able to hear in this podcast.

Mm hmm. Kaz. The one John and Amanda say taught them how to pray, showed them jihadist videos, and pushed them towards violent extremism, who they also believe was working as an undercover informant for CSIS. That guy was violently attacked outside a New Westminster nightclub in 2015. He suffered a near-fatal head trauma and is now unable to move or speak. fatal head trauma and is now unable to move or speak. The New Westminster police confirmed that Kaz was assaulted in June 2015. They tell us one suspect was arrested, charged, and convicted of the crime. But this is where things start to get weird. They won't tell us anything else about the case. Anything. For some reason, the name of the attacker who was convicted is kept a secret. It's very peculiar, but police insist there's nothing nefarious going on here.

The public prosecutor's office stonewalls us and tells us to go search the court registry. The court registry informs us that the case is totally sealed. In fact, even the normal information about when it was sealed, why, or by whom is kept secret. Sealing an entire criminal file in which someone was convicted for a violent assault is extremely rare, and the explanation as to why it happened here is a mystery. With this new information, we go back to John and Amanda's trial transcripts and dig up any mention of Kaz and Ceasus in the court record. In early 2016, John and Amanda's lawyers

tried to get any communications between Kaz and Ceasus revealed. This triggers a set of secretive hearings we call the Person X Proceedings. There's enough evidence in the court record to suggest that Person X is Kaz. The phone calls between him and John, the travel check to see if he'd left the country, the constellation of facts between Person X and Kaz lines up. The only reason we know anything about this part of the trial is that a bunch of media organizations, including the CBC, went to court to get the transcript released. This whole section of the trial was closed to the press and the public.

But based on the highly redacted transcripts we do have, here's what we know went down. The defense applies to have any communications between Person X and CSIS disclosed. They assert this is relevant because John says Kaz was pushing them towards violent jihad, alleging that Person X incited them to do violence. If there are communications between Kaz and CSIS, those should be disclosed. And if there aren't any communications, then there would be nothing to hide. And if Kaz is a state intelligence agent or a source encouraging John and Amanda to commit terrorist acts, that is an abusive process and entrapment. The prosecution objects on the basis that the only thing linking Kaz to CSIS is John's claim, and John is anything but a reliable historian. Fair enough. But CSIS also has its own lawyers in the courtroom. The judge asks them why they're

even there if Kaz wasn't working for CSIS. The CSIS lawyer explains that she's there to protect the answer to that question of whether person X is a human source or not. After hearing all the arguments, Justice Bruce sides with the defense and orders any communications between Person X and CSIS to be released. And in the coming weeks, CSIS does present documents to the judge. But we will likely never know what was in them because this happened in a totally closed courtroom. Even the defense and prosecutors weren't allowed to be there. Justice Bruce alone was allowed to see the documents and ask questions, but was not allowed to keep those documents or tell anyone what was in them.

No transcripts of these proceedings were ever released, and there's no further mention of Person X in the trial. What we do know is that what Justice Bruce saw in those classified CSIS documents, according to her, was relevant to the question of abuse of process and entrapment, and she again ordered that the documents be disclosed to the defense. But after another secretive federal court battle, John and Amanda's lawyers had to give up on their quest for the truth, as it was holding up the trial. As intriguing as this all was the first time I read it, it just feels different when you factor

in that while Ceasus was in court trying to protect the identity of Person X, or Kaz, identity of person X, or Kaz, ostensibly for his own safety. Kaz was still in a coma, recovering from multiple brain surgeries after being violently attacked outside a nightclub earlier that year. And for some unknown reason, anything to do with Kaz's assault case is completely sealed. We can't even get basic information about the case, like who the prosecutor was or the judge who sealed it. After all our digging, it seemed like we'd hit bedrock. There was nowhere left to go until the podcast came out. I sent the series to Rahim and let him know the character we call Kaz is his brother.

Thankfully, after months of radio silence, Rahim responds with a heart emoji. So I call him up, and to my surprise, he agrees to take us to see Kaz in person. In 2017, it felt like drugs were everywhere in the news. So I started a podcast called On Drugs. We covered a lot of ground over two seasons, but there are still so many more stories to tell.

I'm Jeff Turner, and I'm back with season three of On Drugs. And this time, it's going to get personal. I don't know who Sober Jeff is. I don't even know if I like that guy. On Drugs is available now wherever you get your podcasts. So today we are at an assisted living facility and we are potentially going to be able to see and visit with Kaz. Alright. It's go time. It's cool and overcast when Sarah and I get to Kaz's building. We don't see Rahim, so we buzz the front desk to see if he's already inside. We explain who we're going to visit, and the receptionist tells us to wait outside.

A few minutes later, the building manager comes out and what follows is one of the most bizarre conversations I've ever had. Hello. Hello. We tell the manager we're here to visit Kaz and that his brother is running a little late. Okay so he's coming? He's on his way. Yeah. So we're just waiting for him to get here. Okay. There's nothing I can do to help you. No, I know. Yeah, we were just seeing if he was already here, possibly. He also asked us to ask if we need a COVID test before going in. He won't be going in. Even with his brother? Yeah, even with his brother.

How come? Because I can't even acknowledge that anybody by that name is even here. But when his brother gets here, wouldn't he be able to bring us in with him? No. No, he won't be able to do that. How come? Because it's... I can't even discuss any of it. So, can I ask who you are? Yeah, we're reporters for the CBC. Okay. So, we can't, you know, I can't, I'm not here to confirm or deny anything regarding

anybody in the building. Right, but we already know from his brother that he's here. And when his brother arrives, his brother can call me and ask me to come out and have a conversation at that time. Sure, okay, so that's really fine. Yeah yeah yeah but it's so but you're telling us right now that we're not gonna be allowed in to see him I died I don't know who you're looking for okay yeah that's gonna be my snack all right is that is that general to everyone here absolutely not no there are people in the system who we cannot acknowledge where they live or where they reside. Huh.

For safety reasons. Okay. Fair. No, we understand there's security concerns. Yeah. Okay. Right. What are those reasons?

Even I'm not privy to them. Ah. So. Okay. Well, we'll wait and then we can have a conversation. Yeah, yeah. Sarah and I wait outside the building for Rahim to arrive. That's absolutely fucking mind-blowing.

I mean, as soon as he said the words neither confirm nor deny, I kind of lost my mind a little bit. Can't help but make you feel that you're, like, scratching at the surface of something that is, like, very, very sensitive. Yeah, yeah. We're left to stew in our thoughts for over an hour. We start to wonder if Rahim is going to show.

But then... No, there he is. How are you? Good to see you again. So grateful that you came out for us. Thank you. Yeah, thank you for meeting us. Rahim takes us inside,

and the staff seem to know him well. The building manager's tone is very different now that Kaz's brother is here. He tests our temperature, asks us to sign in, and then brings us up an elevator. We're asked not to take any photos or identify Kaz's whereabouts, which we agree to. Yeah, no problem. As we walk the halls, we pass through several locked doors with pin pads. Some residents are watching television in the common areas.

Eventually, the manager lets us into an austere suite. And then we see him. Kaz. Hello. Hey, how are you doing? Good to see you. He's seated in a wheelchair watching Property Brothers on a flat screen TV. A white blanket is draped over him. His legs are thin and his ankles are swollen. To our surprise, Kaz looks at us, barely moving his head, and gives us a wide smile. He's way more conscious and aware than either of us were expecting. Yeah, thank you so much. I'm Dan. And I'm Sarah. Thank you so much.

I'm Dan. And I'm Sarah. Hi. Rahim goes to the bathroom and wets a towel. He gently wipes his brother's mouth and shaved head. We're shocked by the massive cavity on the right side of Kaz's skull. It's healed over, but what remains is an indent the size and depth of a dinner bowl. Unable to speak directly to Kaz, we chat with his brother instead. Rahim says a lot of the same things he told us in our

first interview. That Kaz went to school, worked hard, played soccer, and had lots of friends. But a few new details do emerge. For one, Kaz wasn't jumped by some random guys. Rahim tells us that on the night of his brother's assault, Kaz had gone to the nightclub with three men. One of them he knew as a friend. The other two were strangers. It was one of these men who violently attacked him. So it was his friend who did this?

Yeah, the guys, one of the guys was his friend, but the two, they're not friends, yeah. I saw him once time only. Yeah, but they knew each other already. Yeah, but they know, yeah. That's the kind of like when you have more friends, so you never know who's a bad, who's a nice friend, yeah. This is all new to us.

We had no idea Kaz was attacked by someone he called a friend. But things get even weirder when we try to ask Rahim for the names of the attackers. Did they identify all three of the men who were involved? They get the main one. The main one. The one who actually hit him. Yes. And you knew his name? His full name?

Yes, yeah. I know the names, yeah. What are the names? or do you remember? Yeah, but so we can't give the name, so, yeah. You can't give the name? Yeah. How come? Yeah, because this is like what we, because we don't need to get the information outside,

that's much more for the people, and that's good, yeah. I don't understand. I mean, we would like to look into the case. Rahim gets very cagey at this point about the names of his brother's attackers. He tells us if we want the names, we'll have to go through the police. But the new Westminster police won't tell us anything.

We ask him if Kaz was stressed out at the time or worried about anything. Rahim tells us no, he just seemed normal. Should we ask about the other thing? I mean, we've been investigating this John Nuttall case and we've learned a lot. At this moment, I'm watching Kaz's reaction. Up until this point, he's been smiling, looking happy. But as soon as the name John Nuttall comes up,

the whole vibe in the room shifts. Kaz suddenly looks worried, scared even, and starts to fidget in his wheelchair. I don't have those kind of, like, more information about him. Even like this kind of question, even like because it's more details about what's going on. Because you had never met John Nuttall, had you? No.

We don't press him any harder on the Nuttall question, but Kaz's discomfort is palpable. And I'm not the only one who notices it. The building manager sees it, too. He reaches out and pats Kaz's leg to try and calm him down.

We get the feeling that it's time to wrap this thing up. Well, just to maybe just to end this, like, what is it that you want to see in terms of justice? Like, what do you want to see done for what happened to your brother? Yeah, actually, because the people, they did this, so they shouldn't be like just walking out and doing their normal life. And the young guy is here laying down, almost 80 years later. So we're just waiting until we see. It's time to go, so we thank Rahim and say goodbye to Kaz. The manager leads us out of the building.

He seems to have warmed up to us a bit. He tells us he definitely saw the change in Kaz's demeanor when the name Nuttall came up. saw the change in Kaz's demeanor when the name Nuttall came up. I can't believe it. Up to this point, we've been preoccupied with Kaz in the context of the bigger story, what happened to John and Amanda. But after getting a glimpse into his life before the case, and seeing him in this condition, everything just feels different. Whatever Kaz's connection to Project Souvenir, he didn't deserve this. So, where does that leave us? We know Kaz is a real person.

We saw him with our own eyes. Yeah. We know he was assaulted right around the time that John and Amanda were in court. And we know he was violently attacked and is now unable to move or speak. He's been, you know, bedridden or stuck in his wheelchair since 2015. I just think we need to state very clearly

that we do not have proof that this assault was motivated by anything to do with a spy agency. You know, we've tried to follow every possible thread that could give us a definitive answer. And we don't have it. We don't have it either way. And I mean, yeah, I just think we have to take away that there are things we will never know about this case. You know?

Yeah. We're just going to have to sit with that very uncomfortable constellation of facts. So uncomfortable. You know, we did reach out to a lawyer representing Canada's attorney general to see if Kaz was one of the people specifically covered by the publication ban. Right. Because the publication ban also covers any employees of CSIS. So the response we got back was not very surprising. Essentially, they neither confirm nor deny whether he worked for them and can't say whether he's covered by the ban or not.

But they do strongly urge us not to name him because he might be covered by the ban. And either way, we could be putting his life in danger if we stay definitively that he was working for CSIS. So that's why we stuck with the name Kaz. I think why we've been so obsessed with getting to the bottom of this specific question is because it circles around the big question that looms over this story. Why did this happen to John and Amanda in the way that it did? I mean, the role that CSIS played in this is the origin story of John and Amanda's case, right? Because, like, we do know that the whole thing started with a letter from CSIS saying John had gone and tried to purchase potassium nitrate,

which, by the way, was never, ever confirmed. purchase potassium nitrate, which, by the way, was never, ever confirmed. If someone working for CSIS was inciting John to commit an act of violence and confirming all his worst beliefs for like over a year before he got handed over to the RCMP, then like CSIS gets to enjoy, you know, a really shocking level of impunity for that. Right. The fact that nothing about what they were doing gets to come out. We don't really get to have a conversation about the activities that they were engaged in in their investigation of John and Amanda. And like that's a really disturbing feeling for me. It just yeah, it does give me a very bad feeling.

Yeah. I mean, there's bad feelings all over this story. Well, I mean, I wish we had more answers and not so many questions, but. Well, but we might get those answers at least when this lawsuit gets going. So there's that. Pressure Cooker was written and produced by Sarah Berman, Rafferty Baker, and me, Dan Pierce. Mixing and sound design by Rafferty Baker. Jeff Turner is our senior producer. Our executive producer is Chris Oak, and Arif Noorani is director of CBC Podcasts. Our theme song is by Humans. Special thanks to Graham MacDonald and Taranam Kamlani. Thanks for sticking with us to the end of this series. It's been a wild ride.