Uncover - S2 "Bomb On Board" E4: The Bomb

Episode Date: November 14, 2018

Could the bomb have been placed by someone who wasn't on board? And what can we learn from the sister of a suspect? For transcripts of this series, please visit: https://www.cbc.ca/radio/uncover/uncover-season-2-bomb-on-board-transcripts-listen-1.5129876

I distinctly remember hearing someone yell, stop that van. From CBC Podcasts, an investigation into how young men are being recruited and radicalized on the internet. And she asked me if I was friends with a guy named Alec Manassian. By a new supercharged form of hate. On Facebook, police say he wrote the incel rebellion has already begun. A dark online subculture that's spilling over into the real world. Boys Like Me, available now on CBC Listen and everywhere you get your podcasts. This is a CBC Podcast.

Previously on Bomb on Board I said, who was it? I remember him saying that this particular individual was one of the youngest of the four suspects. He was very much a loner. And I personally believe that the person who detonated that or was responsible was not on the plane. I believe it was somebody else.

We need an explosives expert, and that may shed some more light on Broughton. On the one-year anniversary of the crash, one of the CPR pilots drove himself head-on into a rock wall. And he said as soon as they found out that guy had killed himself, they believed that's what took down Flight 21. And who did it? I'm Johanna Wagstaff. And I'm Ian Hanamansing. And this is Uncover, Bomb on Board.

Investigating one of the largest unsolved mass murders on Canadian soil, the crash of CP Flight 21. Chapter 4. This case is complicated for so many reasons. No one on that plane had a clear motive. And the forensic tools available in 1965 were nowhere near as sophisticated as they are today. And there have been so many theories floating around

among people who've been following this story. Talk of a man with a moon-shaped face, the disgruntled former pilot. There was an allegation that criminals targeted an accountant on board who was part of a financial investigation. And police took that seriously, eventually tracking down a man in Victoria who had bragged of his ties to the underworld when drunk.

And he admitted he was prone to telling tall tales. We even got an anonymous tip that somehow the Soviets were involved. And then, of course, there are the four main suspects first identified by police. Stephen Kolizar, the man with the criminal record. Douglas Edgar, who bought that large life insurance policy at the airport. Paul Vandermuelen, the American. And Peter Broughton, the guy with the gunpowder.

The guy who we've been told may have been the RCMP's prime suspect. I mean, you have to operate on the balance of probabilities, but I'm not completely married or sold on the idea of Broughton. Mike Arnfield is a former police officer and criminologist with a special interest in cold cases. We hired him to help us make sense of all of those old documents to see if anything new jumps out to him. So a large part what I do is apply modern methodologies and technologies to cold cases. Cold cases have been a passion. When we first approached Mike about this

case, he mentioned a new algorithm he was using to analyze criminal behavior and cold cases with his research group at Western University in London, Ontario. It's an algorithm that relies on probability to spit out an outcome. Mike said this would be a, quote, new novel application for it. Hello? Oh, hi, is this Dave? Yeah, hello, how are you? And he offered to introduce us to his colleague in Australia who created the algorithm. Just out of interest. I mean, I was following you on Twitter. Are you using some of this work with the Making a Murderer case?

Yes. Oh, cool. Yeah, I was. I used this method for the Brendan Dassey confession. David Keatley is at the forefront of this new way of looking at criminal behavior. He directs an international network called Researchers in Behavior Sequence Analysis. So, for instance, if I want to know how criminals break into a property, what I'm doing is trying to build up enough cases that I start to see patterns emerging.

Say things like, if they break in through the rear window, they're more likely to move upstairs first and then back downstairs. And what I'm doing is trying to take as many cases as I can and just see what the patterns are that emerge. So what kind of error is involved in this? I mean, I know, obviously, your database is only as good as how many other cases you have in there and only as good as the data that you've put in. But are you able to talk about, I mean, a margin of error with this or, you know, degrees of confidence?

Yeah, I mean, that's the big step we're coming up to next as we're starting to apply these. And that's why I'm very cautious when I work with investigators about the conclusions that I draw. And in fact, I don't really call them conclusions. They're more indicators or helpful timelines to try and help investigators understand the behaviors they're seeing. The original case files and the documents we requested through Access to Information have started to arrive. We've now gathered thousands of pages of internal RCMP documents. Since Mike is going to be poring over all of the relevant documents as part of his work looking into the case, we feel it's worth giving this new BSA software a try and seeing what it comes up with. Oh, hi Mike, this is Johanna Wagstaff.

We actually have new pages from the RCMP report that talks about the condition of the body. As Mike starts to familiarize himself with the crash of CP21, we've been checking in with him regularly, including letting him know about this new rumor of a fifth man. Have you totally ruled out the possibility that this was placed on board by somebody else? We have to operate on what's reasonable. Okay, so a suspicious moon-shaped guy hanging out,

moon-faced guy hanging out on the runway. Mike's not convinced. He says the 1965 investigation was extremely thorough. Hi, this is Alina. Oh, hi, it's Johanna. Hi. How are you? Okay, great.

So are we good to go? Yes, I'm very excited to hear about this update. Your updates are always good, no pressure. I'm calling one of our producers, Alina. This one might be the best one yet. You know, the last little while, of course, we've been looking into this theory that's been brought to us by a number of victim family members now that a disgruntled CP pilot is the one that placed the bomb on the plane. Yes.

And then, of course, and then later died in a car wreck, thought to be a suicide a year later, near the site of the crash at a 100-mile house. For weeks, our producers Alina and Tiffany have been looking into the idea of a fifth suspect. We've heard from several families of victims who believe that whoever planted the bomb on Flight 21 was not on board. And over the last few days, we've learned more and more about this story and about this man that I wasn't sure even existed.

But Joe, I found him today. Holy shit. Like, the guy? The guy. Oh my God. Okay, take me through. Because, I mean, you had done so much digging on this. I feel like there were no more stones to overturn. So, okay, so basically what happened today was Tiffany was speaking to this former CP pilot.

And he had never heard of this theory. But when she asked about a pilot who may have been disciplined during that time period, he remembered one guy, a captain who was let go because of a drinking problem. And he couldn't remember a first name, but with a last name, I began digging through BC's death certificates again. And I found a former captain with Canadian Pacific Airlines who died in a car crash on Highway 95 near 100 Mile House, almost a year to the date of the crash of CP-21. His death, just a few weeks after the first anniversary of the crash, could be a coincidence.

And because there are elements of this story that we haven't been able to confirm, we're choosing not to use this pilot's name. So I didn't find him earlier because I was looking for people who died on or around July 8th. And he died July 21st, 1966. One interesting thing that did stand out to me, so in his death certificate itself, it says the date he last worked at his occupation was in 1965. But the thing is, RCMP had checked with CP about this whole concept of disgruntled employees and, you know, where there's someone who's been looking for revenge. And they had told them that in the past 18 months before the crash,

there had been no dismissals or firing. Here's what we know. This man was a former captain. He flew the Vancouver to Whitehorse route, the same as the doomed flight. And he left CP in 1965. And his name comes up in a letter that we obtained. A CP employee was at a bar with two colleagues. And this employee writes that he heard one colleague call out the other for drinking, saying you shouldn't be drinking so close to your shift because you don't want to end up like, and then he uses the name of the former captain. The captain who Tiffany spoke to this morning, Don Hansel, never even heard of this theory.

He just remembered while he was working there that there was a senior captain who had a drinking problem who was let go around that time. We spoke with seven former pilots who all worked with the man in question. None of them remember his name being connected to the crash. Some even got a little defensive, saying that pilots would never purposely endanger their passengers. The pilot's code of honour. Three did remember hearing that he had, quote unquote, troubles. What we do have is a death certificate in 1966.

And on that death certificate, it says he last worked for CP in 1965. We know we need to get in touch with this pilot's family and hear what they have to say. So Alina starts looking for numbers. But if this theory about a fifth suspect isn't just a rumor, for it to be true, the bomb would have had to be implanted ahead of takeoff and set off by some kind of device. RCMP never found any evidence of a timer, which is part of the reason they believed whoever

did it was on the plane. But if we can replicate some of those RCMP tests from the 60s, maybe we can learn more. We're not ready to eliminate the possibility of a timer just yet. So we'll come back to this. Right now, though, we're trying to explore as many theories as possible to see which ones hold up. So let's return to Peter Broughton, the gunpowder guy. We know that Ken Leland's dad, Cy, said that the police believed that Broughton, who was on the plane, was the culprit.

Police had found traces of black gunpowder in the wreckage, and they knew that Broughton used various types of gunpowder. But why would gunpowder have been at the crash site at all? What role did it play in the explosion, if any? And what more can we find out about Broughton's interest in gunpowder? Hi, is this Joan? Speaking. Yeah, it's Ian Hannemancing calling from CBC. Did I catch you at a good time or a bad time?

No, it's fine. Just watching football. All right, okay. You know what I'm calling about, I guess, right? Yeah. It's been several weeks since we left a lot of voicemails for people in Ontario and Alberta named William or Bill Broughton looking for Peter's brother. And then we get a call back. It was Bill.

And he told us Joan Hodgins would speak on behalf of the family. Joan Hodgins would speak on behalf of the family. And so one of the things that we were looking for is to try to speak to one of Peter's relatives. And you're his sister? Yes. So Joan is the sister of Peter Broughton, the gunpowder guy. She lives in Maple Ridge, just outside Vancouver. So I guess I was 30 or 31.

Yeah. My kids were pretty little, too. I had a 10-year-old and a 6-year-old. Joan was in her early 30s when her brother was killed in the crash. And then Peter was what? He was 29, I guess, eh? He was, yes. He would have been 30 at the end of August. I mean, I don't want to put you in an uncomfortable situation, but one of the incredible things about this story has been talking to people about kind of that time

because, you know, and do you remember where you were when you heard the news that you knew that Peter was involved? It was early in the morning. The police came to the door. My husband had just come in off a night shift and gone to bed. I was just up getting the kids going and my mom was there so she was up. And that was it. They just came in and gave us the terrible news. And do you remember how you

reacted? Oh well, I'm afraid. It was a pretty big shock. Yeah. So you went to the airport to see Peter off? It was a pretty big shock. Yeah. Yeah. So you went to the airport to see Peter off? Yeah. Yeah.

We took him out. So you and your husband or you and your mother? All of us. Kids, mom, Peter. All of us went. Yeah. So tell me what that was like, seeing him off at the airport. Well, we didn't expect that he would never come back.

Joan says everybody seemed happy that day when they saw her brother off at the airport. And she doesn't recall anything that would even hint that Peter was angry or upset. The kids were all over him. I mean, we hadn't seen him in quite a while. And the kids were, and him. I mean, we hadn't seen him in quite a while, and the kids were... And he loved the kids. And Kevin and him got along pretty good. That's one of your kids, Kevin?

Yeah, he was six years old at the time, so he could be a little bit of a brat. But, you know, just normal, just normal activities. Janice was quite taken. She was 10. She was quite taken with the little boy and the little girl that were walking around with their little toys. So your daughter, Janice, played with those two little kids who went on board the plane?

So many of the people that we spoke to who were at the airport remember those children, the Ragnarods, a young family from Norway. They were so cute, marching around. And you must have thought about them the next day. Oh, yeah. Yeah. What a shame. And what about Peter that day? What about his demeanor? Well, he'd been working up at Calciar. He was going back up for the summer.

He was quite happy about it. He was looking forward to coming down in the fall and going on with his education. Everybody was just normal people going about doing normal things. There was nobody that looked odd or suspicious or just normal everyday people. It was just a terrible tragedy. How did you learn that Peter was identified as a suspect? Did the police come and talk to you? Oh, they talked to us quite often, but I'll say this for them.

They were all very polite. My mom was laid pretty low for a few days and they would sit beside her and talk to her. She laid on the sofa and they sat and talked to her and they were all, you know, they were doing their job, but they were nice about it. Peter Broughton very quickly became one of the RCMP's prime suspects. And so I asked Joan about their questions. Well, he'd never been in trouble. I asked he'd never been in trouble. I asked if he'd been in trouble with the law or if he'd done anything that he shouldn't have done. And we lived in northern Ontario for most of our life until we moved out here.

And he moved out and there was just no trouble to get into. The thing is, is that they, I guess the connection was the black gunpowder, right? Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. And so what do you make of that? Well, he'd been up there before. He took all that stuff with him every time he went.

And when he came down, it came back down with him, and there was never any problem. So I don't know. They said that there's no way on its own that could have gone off and done any damage. But that's just what they told us. I don't know if that ever hit the newspaper. Early on, the investigators were very intrigued by Peter's kind of familiarity with black gunpowder. But then later on, it became very clear in their testing that black gunpowder by itself would not have been able

to create the explosion that was on the plane. So I guess at some point, the investigators told you guys that as well, did they? They did tell us that, yes, but I don't think that ever hit the newspaper. So what Joan's talking about here is that the RCMP did tests with black gunpowder and found that it couldn't have caused this kind of explosion. And that a different kind of gunpowder was found in Broughton's room altogether. But Peter Broughton was still listed as the main suspect. Did you ever have any question in your mind that for some crazy reason Peter might have been responsible?

No, no. He wasn't that kind of a person. He was quiet. He liked to read. He loved to be out in the bush. He liked all outdoor activities. So, no, no. bush he liked all outdoor activities so no no and for anybody who says look there were three or four suspects that the rcmp were looking at and peter broughton was one of them what would you say to

them well we knew it wasn't him that did it yeah we know that for a fact and the rcmp told us that Yeah. They told us that it definitely wasn't him that did it. This is the first time we're hearing of this. Every file we have points to Broughton as a suspect. We haven't seen anything in the police files that eliminates him from the investigation. Nobody really knows anything for sure. There was thunder and lightning in the area that night, so it could have been lightning that hit it. Nobody knows.

In 2017, it felt like drugs were everywhere in the news, so I started a podcast called On Drugs. We covered a lot of ground over two seasons, but there are still so many more stories to tell. I'm Jeff Turner, and I'm back with season three of On Drugs. And this time, it's going to get personal. I don't know who Sober Jeff is. I don't even know if I like that guy.

On Drugs is available now wherever you get your podcasts. There was lightning in the area at the time, but CP21 changed course and avoided it. And there is no question that investigators, they were certain that weather was not a factor. What she's telling us, her belief about what happened seems so counter to what Ken Leland told us about his dad, Cy, the Transport Canada investigator and diary keeper. But it is clear Joan and her family are certain that it wasn't their brother. There was no way he would do anything like that. No way. Well, I'm so sorry for your loss, and I know it's been a long time ago,

but you must still feel some of that pain today. Oh, absolutely, yeah. However, it's life and you just kind of have to pick up and go on, don't you? Reading the RCMP documents on Broughton, there is another thing that sets them apart from the other suspects. RCMP suspected that Broughton might be gay. So you have a police culture that is oriented around seeing something wrong with homosexuals.

Sometimes the term sex deviant was used. My name is Gary Kinsman, and I am a professor emeritus at Laurentian University. I used to teach there in the sociology department. I am the co-author of The Canadian War on Queers, National Security as Sexual Regulation. In a memo dated August 31st, 1965, police write that he's the prime suspect because of his connection to gunpowder.

But in considering motive, they explore a theory that seems so misguided as we read the files today, that maybe he had had a same-sex relationship and, quote, if this love affair was broken off recently, it's known that homosexuals become very despondent when this occurs. Remember that at this point in time, all homosexual activity is criminalized. So there's this association on the part of the police, in part using the criminal code, to suggest that homosexuals are criminals and they're

criminal suspects. There's something wrong with their character. So there's a general notion there's something vulnerable, something risky, something suspicious. We spent a lot of time thinking about how and if this may have coloured their judgement at all, and what kind of stigma came with possibly being gay in the 1960s. Now, after speaking to Broughton's friends, the RCMP concluded he was not gay. His police file lists him as, quote, the most logical suspect, and describes him as a 29-year-old who hadn't had any apparent intimate relationship, had a keen interest in collection of guns,

and who, according to a friend, would sometimes drink and get into fights, and may have been carrying gunpowder on the plane. We may never know what was going through the minds of the investigators back in 1965, but what we can do is go back to the science, revisit some of those original forensic experiments. Could a bomb have been made using only gunpowder? Or was it another kind of explosive? And could it have been planted by someone not on the plane?

Knowing how the explosion worked will help us understand who put it there. A passenger or someone who never left Vancouver. Know the bomb, know the bomber. So we're on a highway about a two-hour drive northeast of Toronto heading to a quarry to do some experiments on explosives. Whatever caused this explosion also speaks to the person who did it, right? The level of sophistication they had, the amount of planning that it took, the possibility that maybe they were trying to be in a different part of the plane when it happened.

they were trying to be in a different part of the plane when it happened. It's quite possible that what happens here in the next few hours might actually give us some new insight into what happened on that plane. So we're pulling into the quarry. Where's the main office, sir? Main office, right behind this sign. Best to go around or hang? You can go that way or actually that way. Thank you.

Hi, I'm Ian. Ian, I'm Bill. Hi Bill, nice to meet you. Nice to meet you. Bill Smith has years of experience blowing things up, from quarries to house foundations, and now he teaches blasting techniques at Fleming College, which is here in Peterborough, Ontario.

Stephen, nice to meet you. Stephen? Yes. Hi, nice to meet you. His colleague, Stephen Mullaney, is also here to help us today. Now, had you guys heard anything about this CP-21, the crash, the explosion on board? And so what did you think when you started reading about it? It's a mystery for sure. We're in an open area in the middle of a quarry. It is a beautiful sunny day, but actually a little

bit windy. Still warm though. And for Bill and Stephen, it is safety first. So we have on our helmets, goggles, safety vests. And although they like to joke a lot, they are absolutely methodical as we get ready for the first test. We'll grab you some gear, we'll get suited up, and then we will start getting some product out. So I'm getting a vest and a... There's glasses, vest, and a hat.

Okay. Okay, well, let's set off some explosions. All right. Okay, good. At the time of the crash, RCMP conducted several different experiments. One of the things we're here to do is replicate and then expand on some of those tests. So in the first one, we're trying to find out if black gunpowder, which was found at the scene, could cause an explosion large enough all by itself.

We'll try some black powder by itself, see what kind of reaction we get. So 1965 is a long time ago, 53 years ago. I know you weren't in business at that time. So first of all, getting black gunpowder back then wouldn't have been tough, I guess? Not an issue. You would just buy it at probably your local store. And what about dynamite? How hard would that be to get, do you think? The same deal. You go in and as long as you're over 16, I believe you bought that right over the counter. You can buy dynamites,

blasting caps. Farmers did it all the time. We don't have our washroom from a plane. It's our issue. So we're going to contain it in a metal pail. So we're going to cut a hole in the bottom of our container. So, I mean, your first thought is that the black powder is not going to have enough energy to blow the back end of a plane off. So in the original police experiments in the 60s, the black gunpowder didn't cause a large explosion. But they also didn't contain the powder in anything. And the thing about gunpowder is it doesn't actually explode on its own. It

burns really quickly and it creates a lot of gas, but you need to lock that gas in to create that explosion. So this time we've put it in a sealed container inside of a pail to see if that makes a difference. So we're about maybe 200 meters away from where they're just doing the final preparations for this explosion. You can hear their truck now. They have now put in what they call an electronic match, which they can actually activate from where we are, that 200 meters away. So when you're ready, Bill. Five, four, three, two, one.

Wow. Even the concussive effect, like where, what, you figure 200 metres away or more? We're probably two to 250. Yeah, I felt it. I didn't flinch, by the way, but I did feel it. The explosion was big, smoky, and the bucket just shot straight up into the air. So we get the bucket basically divided into two pieces. This is one of them here. And it's blackened on the inside, and you can smell the gunpowder residue.

The pails aren't super thick, but that has done some serious damage. Were you expecting this? No. This is actually a significant development because it shows that black gunpowder on its own caused a much larger explosion

than we thought. So maybe it was used in the bomb, but there's another thing to keep in mind, and that is that the gunpowder that was found in Peter Broughton's room

was not black gunpowder. It was a different kind of gunpowder. So this test doesn't necessarily implicate him more than any of the other suspects. So what does this tell you about who might have made this bomb? And by that, I mean obviously not the person, but the level of sophistication and the access to explosives,

that sort of thing? Unfortunately, it tells me that a lot of people would have had access to the materials and the access to explosives, that sort of thing? Unfortunately, it tells me that a lot of people would have had access to the materials and the means to do an explosion like that. It wouldn't take a lot of expertise to do what we did today on a plane. We also replicated another test that the RCMP did. Nitrates had been found at the scene, so that suggested dynamite may have been used. All righty, okay, let's set up the next thing here. Okay.

So, three sticks. And we'll keep the dead separate at this point, right? Other than movies and, frankly, cartoons, I'd never seen dynamite before. It does come in sticks. And we put some in a container, sprinkled black gunpowder around the base. That's to account for the traces of black gunpowder found at the scene.

We then put a metal pail on top, a car tire, and the wheel. All of that is to replicate an airplane toilet. And this is exactly what the crime lab scientists did back in 65. So we'll just put the debt in one of Steve's little containers and we'll pour the pound of powder on the outside. RCMP reports say no evidence of a timing device was ever found. No pieces of exploded plastic, bits of clockwork or unexplained wiring. But we wanted to know what would happen to a clock strapped to some dynamite. Where's the alarm clock? We need the alarm clock.

No, it's over here too. So we asked Bill to rig something up. It's interesting to see what will be left of that alarm clock. All right. Here we go. Okay, so we should head out now? Okay. We get the signal and the team heads back to a safe distance.

Are they ready for one minute? Yeah. If you folks clear out once we're back in a safe spot again, we'll add the detonator once we're ready to go. You feel confident enough to shoot this one? Sure, absolutely. You detonate by hitting a hole with both thumbs remaining down. Okay.

We all good? You in five? Okay, charging the system, hold on. Okay, here we go, charge is on. Okay, ready for the count. Four, three, two, one, zero. And that's how long it took the tire to fall back down. The sound of this explosion, the force of it is surprising.

It's impressive. Imagine this car tire and wheel just shooting 30 meters, like 100 feet in the air. That's what you expected. It is. That's a big blast. So that was three sticks of dynamite as opposed to nine, which is what they were looking at. And that still was a huge explosion. That was interesting.

It was so narrow and contained. Like the first one just was more of what you think an explosion would be. Like it went out and was smoky and cloudy. And that one was just like so clean or somethingyser. So clean or something, yeah. I mean, we're expecting it. We're here doing this test. We're standing really far back, so we know when they're going to do the explosion.

But for that just to happen unexpectedly as you're mid-flight, I can't imagine. And it looks like it's drove right straight down into here. But what is interesting is the amount of black residue we have left. Yeah. How much residue was in the plant, I don't know. But certainly with the dynamite, it's left a lot of residue there for sure.

So again, picture this quarry. Just flat rocks for the most part. Just a wide area. And so pretty easy to find something if it's there. So what's your theory? Where do you think that alarm clock ended up? Our team has

fanned out walking around the quarry trying to find any trace at all of the alarm clock. If the clock was obliterated in the blast, could the same thing have happened on CP Flight 21? So the wheel and tire ended up over there. And can you find the alarm clock for me? Yeah. So where's the alarm clock? That we haven't found yet.

me yeah so where's the alarm clock that we haven't found yet you have a tiny twisted fragment of the uh of the pale but and then one other down there that wow another way back here as well what do you got more of the tail a tiny fragrance yeah but let's find the the alarm clock yeah alarm clock Yeah, but let's find the alarm clock. Yeah, alarm clock. Now the fact that none of us found anything, not even a tiny piece, is telling. Maybe that's why investigators didn't find any trace of a timing device in the forest. But is that enough to support this theory that someone left a bomb on CP-21 and then walked away before the

plane even took off in Vancouver. So maybe there was a timer after all, which means we can't cross off the theory of a fifth man just yet. I haven't seen any evidence of the alarm clock at all. On the next Bomb on Board. My parents had plans for the future. And that's not a man who is going to go out and kill himself or 51 other people. So Peter Browden is very compelling. Now all of a sudden we have something that tips towards a motive for Edgar. And that is when he told us, our father was cleared of that a long time ago, but nobody had ever told us. The individual psychiatrist referred to him as a person

who shows a deep madness towards the world, also showed him to be capable of violent, irrational acts. But why would he do this? That's the question everyone asks about every mass murderer. Uncover Bomb On Board is hosted by Ian Hanamansing and me, Johanna Wagstaff. The podcast is written and produced by Mika Anderson, Polly Legere, Ian, and me. Our associate producer is Alina Ghosh. Tiffany Foxcroft is our producer with The National. Mixing and sound design

by Mika Anderson, Polly Legere, and Mitchell Stewart. Sarah Clayton is our digital producer. Our senior producer is Tanya Springer. And our executive producer

is Arif Noorani. Subscribe to the series wherever you get your podcasts. We're at cbc.ca slash uncover. And if you want to discuss the story with others and get the latest updates, join our online communities at the Uncover Facebook group or following us on Twitter at Uncover CBC Podcasts, go to cbc.ca slash podcasts.