Uncover - S23 E13: New Evidence | "The Pit"

Episode Date: December 25, 2023

A rural couple makes an unusual discovery under a shed and is called to testify in court. Greg forces his own lawyers to make a difficult decision. The trial brings more surprises as the seventh anniversary of Sheree’s disappearance passes by.

In 2017, it felt like drugs were everywhere in the news, so I started a podcast called On Drugs. We covered a lot of ground over two seasons, but there are still so many more stories to tell. I'm Jeff Turner, and I'm back with Season 3 of On Drugs. And this time, it's going to get personal. I don't know who Sober Jeff is. I don't even know if I like that guy.

On Drugs is available now wherever you get your podcasts. This is a CBC Podcast. We did get lucky, very lucky. Like the odds of the weapon being found is like, it is a miracle. Sherry Furtuck's sister, Tika, is back at the courthouse. Greg's murder trial has resumed again after another delay. The trial was held up because of an unexpected discovery. The prosecutors have new evidence.

They say this is the gun Greg used to kill Sherry. It was found beneath an old shed in a farmer's field west of Saskatoon. A couple with no connection to the case came across it one day. It looked like broken plastic. And then I saw what I thought was a rusty pipe, so I'm like, oh, I wonder what this used to be. And I picked it up. And then I saw the hand grip for the gun, and I'm like, oh, my God. So I look at Dean just holding his gun.

It's like, what the fuck is that? More than a year has passed. The trial is still underway, and a lot has happened since then. The lawyers are facing shocking revelations. Greg's choices are complicating the process, and Sherry's family is still searching for justice. It's just like, is this ever going to end? Judge Daniluk has been handed an absolute curveball here. Beware of the person sitting next to you because they are the

ones that will stab you in the back. If I sound like I'm a little aggrieved, I am. After going on 1,200 days and locked up in hell, yeah, I want to go with you. Just bury me. I'm Alicia Bridges. And I'm Kendall Latimer. And this is episode 13 of The Pit. The couple who found the gun stumbled upon it by chance. Dean and Courtney Williams live about an hour away from Saskatoon. So I head west on Highway 14, driving out to meet them. Pretty desolate area. There are farm operations along the way, but it's really quiet out here. Their acreage is south of town.

There's the sign of Purdue. And the directions are simple. So three miles south on the right side. Look for a big rock that says Williams in the yard and Christmas decorations. I see the Williams sign, the reindeer. There's a dog coming up to meet me. Hello, old dog. Dean and Courtney are so welcoming.

We chat as they prepare coffee. I hope it will keep us warm. The wind is biting today. We head outside and the three of us jump into Dean's truck. He drives us to the spot where they found the gun. We're on road 655 now. They were driving around this area in 2021, keeping an eye out for abandoned sheds.

They were hoping to spot a fixer-upper. We were hunting north of Highway 14 and kind of making our way back because I think it was getting close to lunchtime and saw this awesome looking shed. They checked out close to 20 before spotting this one. It seemed perfect so they got permission from the landowner to haul it away. And where we found it was an eighth of a mile off of Highway 14. Yeah, so we pulled in here and there's where it was. Let's go take a look. We trudge through the snow toward a small grove of poplar trees.

Between the trees are two rotting sheds. They have a space between them. That's where the third shed used to be. That's the one Dean and Courtney hauled home. And it's also where Courtney saw the gun. It looked like broken plastic. And then I saw what I thought was rusty pipes. I'm like, oh, I wonder what this used to be, and I picked it up.

And then I saw the hand grip for the gun, and I'm like, oh my God. So I look at Dean just holding his gun. It's like, what the fuck is that? It's like, this is a gun. I'd never seen a folding stock, that's why I thought it was broken plastic and a rusty pipe until I saw that. When Dean unfolded the stock and we were looking at it, I said, oh, that's kind of weird. There's some hockey tape wrapped around the end of the barrel there. It was a homemade called silencer is what it was.

It was very well made and powerful enough to hurt a person. But it wasn't concealed. It wasn't buried. It looked like it was just chucked underneath there. So we thought, well, young punks come out here, or it was a police chase of some sort. Dean and Courtney decide to clean up the rifle and keep it for themselves. They make sure it's not loaded and bring it back to their shop. The barrel was a bit rusty, but the rest of it was fine.

They don't use it, but they show it off to friends when they get the chance. You find wrenches out in fields and hammers from old farmers and horseshoes and shit but never ever would I see finding a rifle though. They don't think too much about it until Dean gets a call from a friend who says they need to talk he's read a newspaper story about greg's murder trial it explains the rcmp's theory that greg dumped the murder weapon a ruger 1022 in a rural area west of saskatoon he's like jesus christ this might be a part of it. So I read it once. I thought, eh, whatever. And then I read it again, and he said he used a Ruger model. And I hemmed and hawed.

I said, well, Jesus, maybe it is a part of it. So I thought, I should probably haul it in. So I hauled it up to the RCMP in Bigger and handed it in and told them exactly what had happened. I made a map for them and then I waited, or we waited. After they show me the spot where they found the gun, we get back in the truck. And then, so you drew a map for the police and then also helped the prosecution find it, the proper place on your map? Yeah, because they printed off a huge picture of... Like a couple maps.

Yeah, and it was in the wrong yard. That's when I said, why don't we show you guys exactly where we found it? Yeah. You're the only one who has ever asked us to go see it. We had assumed that the RCMP would have wanted us to show exactly where we found it. They didn't though.

We head a little further down the road. We're about another what quarter mile north of where we just were over top of Eagle Creek. Eagle Creek. I remember that name from the trial. During the Mr. Big Sting, Greg told the crime boss that he used a Ruger to kill Sherry. We know that just before Greg was arrested in 2019, he was helping undercover cops search for the rifle. He told them he got rid of the gun in a rural area around Bigger, a town 20 minutes down the road from Purdue. But after he's arrested, Greg seems to lie to the police. He tells them he was out with friends checking out old fishing spots by Eagle Creek. After Courtney and Dean turn in the gun, the prosecutors have the rifle analyzed.

They reopen their case and enter the gun as new evidence. That means Dean and Courtney have to testify in Saskatoon. I'd never been to court before for anything. It was pretty nerve-wracking when I first got in there, and then they asked me to state my name and stuff, and I'm kind of panicking, and then all of a sudden it was just like a calm came over, and I'm like, I got this. Then I honestly forgot that Greg was even in the room. I never want to do it again.

He was trying to be very, what's the word? I just looked right at him and gave him a grin and said, fuck you. How did it feel once that part of it was over? We're like, we need a beer. So we went and had a few beers. And hopefully their family gets peace knowing that it was him or wasn't him. I don't know if it was or not. I'm just happy that we might have helped out somebody now. At the trial, the Crown calls an expert to testify about the gun. He works for the National Forensics Lab. This expert had fired shots from the rifle and he compared the markings on those shell casings with the casings that were found at the gravel pit.

The police found the casings a few months after Sherry disappeared. They were close to where her truck was located. The expert testified that the casings found at the pit came from the ruga that Dean and Courtney turned in to police. Sherry's sister, Tika, was there at the courthouse, listening to that expert. She seemed relieved after hearing the testimony. It's definitely good for us that we have this key piece of evidence

that the casings have been tied to the weapon. Sometimes just waiting, as long as we've had to wait, it's definitely turned out in our favour. The odds of the weapon being found is like, it is a miracle, really. I spoke to the gentleman that owns the land, and he said that there were actually three granaries on the land, and for whatever reason, the couple chose the one in the middle. Had they picked one of the other two, we probably wouldn't be here today.

With the gun evidence out of the way, the lawyers get back to work. Justice Richard Dunluck still needs to rule on the voir dire evidence. We've talked about this before. Basically, he needs to decide if the Crown's evidence, including what Greg said to the cops, is admissible to the actual trial.

If it is, the judge will consider it when deciding whether to convict Greg. Before the judge makes that voir dire ruling, the lawyers get a chance to make their case on whether the evidence should be accepted or not and why. But as they're busy preparing their arguments, the trial hits another snag. In July 2022, we learn that Greg's lawyers have caused another delay.

They've taken too long to answer some important procedural questions. So the judge's decision is pushed forward again, another six months. But Greg ends up back in court earlier than expected. It's Monday, October 24th, 2022, around 9.30 in the morning. The ground is snowy and wet. We've just had our first snowfall of the year. I'm walking up to the courthouse, now actually known as the Court of Kings Bench in Saskatoon. Inside, the courtroom is quiet.

It feels tense. Greg is staring at his lawyers, Morris Bodner and Mike Nolan. They tell the judge that they want off the case. They say their relationship with Greg is damaged beyond repair, and they can't represent him anymore. Justice Daniluk allows them to withdraw. Mike follows Morris out of the courtroom. They leave Greg behind in the prisoner's box. Today is Morris' last day in court. And as a mentor that I worked with for a lot of years,

walking out of the courtroom this way is not how we planned it. We didn't want it to end like this. And if we knew it would have happened like this, we would have withdrawn two years ago. The lawyers speak with reporters outside. Morris says Greg left them no choice. But I firmly, firmly believe, and I still do, that Mr. Furtack is not guilty. But he went too far.

He went away too far in what he was saying. He says Greg went behind their backs, filing complaints to the Provincial Law Society. And to make matters worse, the lawyers weren't told about the complaints for months. I'm not sure the Law Society was aware of the current state of the litigation. At least in the complaint that he filed about me, it wasn't apparent on the face of the complaint that he was still before the Court of Kings bench at the end of a voir dire of a Mr. Big murder trial that had taken more than 35 days.

The lawyers say Greg degraded them and questioned their competence and professional integrity. And in this particular case, I have over 500 hours invested, 83 of which occurred after his complaint to the Law Society. 83 of which occurred after his complaint to the Law Society. So if I sound like I'm a little aggrieved, I am. Mike says they can't tell us all of the details. But part of Greg's complaints have already come up in court. Greg suggests his lawyers didn't try to get him bail.

Well, I don't know how Mr. Furtack's position to the Law Society is tenable that we didn't run a bail hearing. They did start a bail hearing in 2020, but it was cut short. We can't discuss with you the reasons why it wasn't completed because it's sealed. Justice Daniluk can't look into it because it's sealed either. But on its face, Mr. Furtack is wrong. Greg also says they should have filed a Jordan application. As we've mentioned before, people in Canada have a right to a timely trial. There are rules around how long someone can wait. If a case exceeds that timeline, the charges could be dismissed. But Morris and Mike say Greg's situation wouldn't

meet the criteria especially because Greg agreed to delays. When the trial was adjourned from March of 2021 he waived delay because of COVID. He waived the delay not just us. Justice Daniluk had him put it on the record. Morris and I came to the opinion because of that waiver of delay a Jordan application wasn't tenable. None of the courts across Canada have really been very favourable to delay caused by COVID implications. I would think a worldwide pandemic is an exceptional circumstance. So while I feel for Mr. Furtuck that he spent an awful lot of time on remand

the law just isn't on his side. Morris and Mike are pissed off. But they're still willing to help the next lawyer who picks up the case. I'm fully prepared to provide my research to whoever picks up the mantle and runs for Mr. Furtuck. I'm a defense lawyer. I'm interested in defendants getting good outcomes and fair trials. Same thing. I'll sit down defendants getting good outcomes and fair trials. Same thing. I'll sit down with new counsel if they want to.

I'll follow it and I'll see who the other lawyer is, but I'm out of it completely. I'll read the stories. Mr. Furtuck had the benefit of 72 years of legal experience going to bat for him for the last two years. That's going to be difficult to replace. My worry is the coffee on at home. That's my worry right now. It's not about this file. I'm done. I should have been retired two years ago. In fact, my wife is waiting for word at home as to whether I got off the cage today and she'll be happy, very happy. case today.

And she'll be happy, very happy. In 2017, it felt like drugs were everywhere in the news. So I started a podcast called On Drugs. We covered a lot of ground over two seasons, but there are still so many more stories to tell. I'm Jeff Turner, and I'm back with

Season 3 of On Drugs. And this time, it's going to get personal. I don't know who Sober Jeff is. I don't even know if I like that guy. On Drugs is available now wherever you get your podcasts. Once the dust has settled, I reconnect with Morris. Now that he's had some time away from the courtroom, I suggest we meet up. And he surprises me when he says we should meet at the Western Development Museum. It's a quirky space full of vintage relics from days gone by. There are typewriters and tractors and mannequins and old-timey clothing. It really is an adventure, isn't it?

The best adventure there is. Right here in Saskatchewan. Morris is a member here. It's where he goes for coffee. I'm well, thanks. Good to see you. The cafe is too busy, so we go into the banquet room next door. The chairs aren't set up in the room, so we sit on the edge of the stage.

Sing a song and dance or something. I could sing a song and dance or something. I could sing a song. When I walked out of the courtroom, I was completely relieved. I was relieved that I was all done. I should have had that feeling a couple years ago, but I stayed on to help Greg, and I didn't expect it to go on this long. I expected the trial to be over in a year after I took it, or a year and a half. Do you regret taking on this case now that you know how it ended?

Yes and no. I thought it would be a very interesting case. I knew Greg a bit from his previous matter that he had, and I looked at it initially, and I did not think that he could have done this. I'm still convinced that he did not do it. Whether he is convicted or not matters not to me now, but I thought that he was not guilty. But I'm sorry I took it on because it took so long.

It took two years extra out of my life that I could have spent visiting children and grandchildren, doing things I enjoy doing. Instead, I completely immersed myself in this case. And then to have a complaint come to the law society, saying that I did nothing for him. I have never worked as much and as long on a trial as I have on this one. And to have that come? Just a disgrace. Do you feel a bit betrayed?

Maybe. I wouldn't call it betrayal. It's a complete lack of understanding as to how the process works. I can recall once having lunch with a friend of mine who's since passed away. lunch with a friend of mine who's since passed away. He was a lawyer and said, beware in the courtroom, not of the prosecutor, not of the judge or witnesses, but beware of the person sitting next to you because they are the ones that will stab you in the back. Clients don't pressure me to do anything. They never did. When I took on a file, and I don't want this to sound like arrogance, I told them what to do. If they didn't like it, they went elsewhere.

Well, Greg wouldn't go elsewhere, but he wanted me to do something. The remedy he was asking for with the Law Society, he was asking for return of his monies, or he wanted us to make the Law Society. He was asking for return of his monies or he wanted us to make the Jordan application. So he's asking the Law Society to force us to make the Jordan application when we told him we wouldn't do it already, trying to use a different means of pressuring us. Well, Greg wanted bail in the worst way. I can't comment more on that right now because the bail hearing is sealed, but it did not go ahead and its chances of success are, in my opinion, zero. So why wouldn't, generally speaking,

a bail hearing be successful? On a murder case, it's a reverse onus. We have to show why the person should be released. Secondly, you have to have a structure set out as to what would happen if he is released. Where will he work if he's going to work? Where is he going to live? Right, and just from what we know, Craig doesn't have many people that are open to kind of taking him into their home

and supervising him, et cetera, et cetera. You're saying it, I'm not. There's someone in the room who needs to vacuum. So we stroll down the hall to Boomtown Street, the museum's main attraction. The exhibit is a replica of a long main street in Saskatchewan from the early 1900s. You can actually go inside the shops. We find a bench across from the church and the police station. I was notified that a man had been killed.

It happened early this morning on a farm about six miles west of Boontown. I would have liked to just walk away and be done with it, win or lose. But the client didn't feel, I think he didn't even feel that he should let me do that, and I wasn't going to let him bully me around. So I feel I left it as well as I could. I believe he had a good chance of an acquittal. There are many things that are on Greg's side. His version that he gave to the police, to the killing doesn't fall in sync with the physical evidence. And I can give you specifics, you know, when he says he shot her from the front, then went from behind, shot her in the back. The shells that are thrown out by the

gun should have been in different locations. They're not. They're very close. The shells here are not scratched in any way from being in a gravel pit from December till spring. Very unlikely. How they got there, I think they just found them in spring and decided, oh, these were the shells from the shooting. The most important evidence was that of the truck. The truck was seen going by a residence of a Mr. and Mrs. Loudermilk. And she was adamant. She knew it was between 4.30 and 5.30 in the afternoon of the day that Sherry disappeared. At three minutes to five, Greg was in Saskatoon at a car wash.

So in other words, he wasn't driving the truck. Talking about this makes me curious. For the longest time, this has been a murder case without a weapon. So now that the Crown has this evidence, what does Morris think about the Ruger 1022? It's just a red herring. The expert says, well, that gun, those shells were fired from that gun but he never looked at any other similar guns and it's my understanding that you cannot on a Ruger be able to say which Ruger fired a shell because the mechanism used for firing, the firing pin, is probably manufactured by the same manufacturer, so it would be the same.

You need the riflings and the barrel to be able to say whether it was the same gun or not. And you need the bullet. They don't have it. Morris was ready to make these points in his final argument at the trial, but he doesn't need to worry about that now. He's 74 years old old and he's finally ready to retire. Yes, my wife and I want to travel Saskatchewan. We're not sure we can travel much internationally anymore. It's difficult to get from point A to point B. But we want to. We have a motor home. I'd love to see all the small towns in Saskatchewan besides Boomtown.

I leave the museum shuffling across the icy parking lot. As I'm walking, I think about how it's been almost seven years since Sherry disappeared. Unlike Morris, Sherry's family can't walk away from this. It's time to catch up with Tika and Michelle. So I get back on the highway, this time heading south to Tika's home in Davidson. I pass the turnoff to Keniston along the way. Hello? Michelle is in a different province, so she joins us on a video chat. When the trial began, did you ever imagine that you would still be dealing with this and waiting for an outcome going into 2023? No.

No, I thought it would have been over and done with a year ago. I guess essentially that would have happened, but then they found the gun, so. Well, thank God they did. Yeah. would have happened but then they found the gun so well thank god they did yeah but then i mean all this gong show that's continuing is like judge daniluk must just be shaking his head right he's probably just like oh my god what have i gotten myself into it's just like is this ever gonna end it's hard to believe it's seven years already this needs to come to a close i mean enough is enough already yeah and it's just like is this ever gonna end it's hard to believe it's seven years already this needs to

come to a close i mean enough is enough already yeah and it's so like the police started their mr big in 2018 it took them three years to keep pursuing it and it's a bit frustrating because had they just listened I mean they did go question Greg but I think they initially missed some evidence so they were maybe a little sloppy on their end too and when they started digging through the gravel pile like I know people were just trying to help but it was like in the very beginning a lot of the evidence was probably somewhat destroyed. And I go back, my gut told me she wasn't missing. She didn't run away. Greg had killed her.

Sherry would have never just wandered off. No. And she wouldn't have just left. Left her family, her kids, her grandkids. Yeah. Mom. She wouldn't have left. No.

Sherry's sisters try not to dwell on these details they focus on the good memories sometimes they think about sherry when they least expect to like when i barbecue i quite often think of sherry because i was because i was at the farm one time and well she didn't barbecue very much so i said go light the barbecue she went and lit the barbecue but she didn't open the lid so I heard this bang she came into the house I'm like her hair was singed she's like oh that didn't go very good or whatever she said and I'm like I said well you idiot I said didn't you open the lid on the barbecue oh no he said well you're supposed to open the lid. And like her hair was singed.

So we laughed about that. It's just sad, though, that that's all we have now is just memories. And if only we knew, you know, like I would have, if only, like, you know, I would have called Sherry more often or I don't know got together more often right like she was just honestly here one day not the next so that's I guess that makes it harder knowing that she wasn't sick from something she wasn't in an accident you know something like that just that yeah she's she's here and then she's gone all those other things give you closure right we we will never

truly get closure i don't think mom was a very strong catholic i'm kind of the same like i need I need that final resting and that final goodbye, I guess. Essentially to, I guess, be at peace knowing that she's at peace. It's been so long since Sherry disappeared that police are no longer searching for her remains. I guess our best luck is if hunters or somebody, whoever owns the land where she is, comes across something. At this point, it would be pure luck. There is a possibility, but I mean, it's seven years, right?

I guess we can always hold out hope. Yeah. Hold out hope. Yeah. That maybe some of her is found someday. Tika and Michelle have tried to search for Sherry. They approached a company that uses dogs, and they were working with mediums and psychics. There was a couple of the different psychics or whatever that said to us that that sherry is saying stop looking for me you won't find me the gal that i was with she like we've

been out a couple times and she's like oh when i look around she said i see sherry everywhere i'm like okay i mean i still i still think greg probably he knows where she is he was very exact with the undercover cops he drew a very specific map and he yeah i don't know i don't know how he's gonna get out of it when he confessed what he did it was all very specific and he acted it out yeah i i didn't watch the whole three hour video but i just watched the part where he was essentially saying what he did and acting it out and I just thought you son of a bitch like he was just so calm and yeah just did this just did that it's just like Jesus you know matter of factly and do-do-do-do this is that's what I did this day kind of thing I don't know it was weird yeah but i thought the undercover cop that was in there with

him the crime boss or whatever man he played his part real well just totally laid back chill drinking his coffee he said drop me a map here i got lots of paper make it big being in the courtroom and listening to all of it it was it was it was comical, but it wasn't comical, because it was like, you idiot. Like, how did you not know? You know, but I mean, like he drew maps, and he, he was specific about where he shot her. That was heart wrenching. That's what I always think about. I always think about Sherry in that moment, what she must have been feeling she must have been just totally shocked but also in pain right like I just I can't even imagine what was what she was thinking

she must have been thinking oh my god this is it but in disbelief probably at the same time that he would actually go to these lengths oh that just makes me sick i just can't even imagine i just wish when he got the gun that she just would have got into the trap and just ran him over or did something but i guess she didn't honestly think i guess he was going to shoot her and kill her well because she said didn't she say to him what are you going to what are you what are you going to do with that i'm going to show you what I'm going to do. And then when he said, oh, oh, and then I shot her in the back of the head, put her out of her misery. I was like, oh, you asshole. Awful. Now Greg says he made that story up.

He says he lied because he was afraid of the undercover cops and that he's not guilty. I think he's so buried in his own lies that he just, that's his truth now. And he's quite determined that he's, he's the innocent one in all of this and he didn't do anything wrong. And it's, it's everybody else's fault. When the trial for Greg began, we knew it would be complicated. There's the Mr. Big Sting and Greg's head injury. And still no body. Now, as the trial rolls into yet another year, it's even more convoluted. This case has thrown almost nothing but curveballs and sliders. There's been nothing down across the plate, really.

You might remember Brian Pfefferle. I'm a criminal lawyer in the province of Saskatchewan here, defending people charged with everything from shoplifting to serious crimes like homicide. Brian has followed and worked many fascinating and challenging cases, but he's never seen a trial quite like Greg's. You think like, well, have there been enough bad turns in a case

where you wonder if starting afresh is actually a good thing? And if you've got a pending law society complaining against your former lawyers, you're complaining that they didn't do certain things you'd want to do, do you get a restart? Judge Daniluk has been handed an absolute curveball here. You don't envy the situation of the new lawyer taking it over. And there's no two lawyers that think exactly the same and having to pick up the pieces and run a case from a strategic perspective. Would you run it differently if you were the accused's new lawyer? Then I was in the unfortunate situation of taking over a murder file halfway through a trial at one point and it was really

extremely difficult. Ultimately it ended in a mistrial. With Morris and Mike off the case, the question becomes, who will represent Greg? The court brings in a different lawyer to help Greg find somebody else to take on the case. But when court resumes, Greg surprises everyone. He wants to be his own lawyer. Against all advice. People in Canada have a right to represent themselves in court.

But Justice Staniluk urges Greg to understand how helpful it is to rely on experts, especially during a murder trial involving undercover police. Of course, Greg's just been charged and not convicted. Even so, Justice Dunluck says the stakes could not be higher. A conviction for first-degree murder means at least 25 years in prison and court-imposed conditions for life. But Greg has made up his mind. He insists this is the best way forward. So the court sends Greg a handbook for people who are representing themselves in court. Brian says he's seen people run their own bail hearings

or take on traffic court and do great. I've actually seen self-reps run their own domestic trials and do a great job. Have you ever seen someone run their own murder trial and do a great job? I would say no. You know, it's tough. I mean, the old saying is that if you represent yourself,

you have a fool for a client and a fool for a lawyer. I couldn't imagine the stress of facing a prosecution of killing my spouse. On top of that, you've got the stress of having to understand legal theory and the law in a very complex area, and then all the while defending yourself and, as I understand, post-acquired brain injury. I mean, there's just so many problems with it. I could say this with almost conclusive passion, saying everybody in Canada is better served by being represented by a lawyer as opposed to self-representing.

It's not only challenging for the accused. Brian says it makes it really complicated for the judge too. We have here one of the most experienced criminal trial judges in the province, Justice Danlik. He's going to probably grapple with these issues and one of the things that they can do is appointed amicus. Brian is talking about amicus curiae. This is a lawyer who is appointed by the court. They appoint the amicus to assist the process. The duty of the amicus lawyer is to the court. The amicus finds what's relevant to the case, things that a person representing themselves could miss. This might include case law or evidence submitted at the

trial. Their job is to help the judge, but technically the accused is still running the show. You'll negotiate stuff for the client sometimes, you'll sometimes talk to the accused, you'll get a perspective of what they're saying, but the client is still their own lawyer, and so you're there to basically save them from themselves, but that's it, and it's extremely difficult. Brian says people who represent themselves in court don't have to play by the same rules as professional lawyers. We can't make ridiculous statements. We can't do things that are knowingly unethical in court. You can't put a fact that you know is completely untrue, that you personally know is completely untrue to court. Self-reps aren't governed by the law society. They're not governed by a code of conduct. They're not governed by any common law rules of the court. You can't imagine a more complex sort of legal issue than a Mr. Big case to do that by yourself.

Oh boy. And so like you're an accused person, you're trying to self-represent and you're trying to say, well, I had an acquired brain injury. I shouldn't have been held responsible. I didn't know what was going on. Well, how do you do that? How do you stand up and argue for yourself? And almost in some sense, if you can articulate that well, could it hurt your actual argument later to say, well, how can you articulate this so well now when you're saying you've got this acquired brain injury? Did your brain injury improve? Like maybe it did, maybe it didn't. I mean, these are sort of like just, it causes so many problems. You need to have a lawyer or someone helping you to go through line by line and say, here's a fact they're alleging. Is that fact corroborated? In Canada, the accused has a right to silence. But when they choose to defend themselves in court,

that concept becomes murky. They often give evidence when they're asking questions. So in a perfect world, a self-rep would stand up and speak in the third person almost and say, you never did this to the accused, did you? Even though they're the accused themselves. But it's awkward. So people talk, especially non-legally trained people, talk like they talk in a conversation and say, well, you never told me I could do this, right?

How does the judge discount the fact that the accused person is appearing to remember things or appearing to say things based on their memory at the time through their questions and how do those not get attributed to the accused in some fashion the reality is that a self-rep who's asking a question isn't giving evidence so the judge won't consider that but if the accused testifies, it's open season, in my view, for a Crown to be like, when you were asking those questions, you said this, you remember that, don't you? Well, it happened in court. You can't unhear it. With all of this at play, Bryan says it's a good thing that Justice Daniluk is the one

presiding over Greg Furtuck's trial. It's as messy as you can imagine. You've got evidence coming mid-trial, you've got an accused person who's speaking to the media and giving lengthy statements, and then you've got changes of lawyers. There's just a cascading series of issues. And then ultimately, we're still here waiting with bated breath, what's this guy going to say? Then just watching one of the most skilled criminal judges having to make decisions that unquestionably are difficult ones. You know, if you were to ask me to speculate what's going to happen, I'd be very surprised if this case is done in 2023. Morris told us he'd be following the trial

from afar, so we asked him what he thought of Greg's decision. Well, there's a saying among lawyers that if you decide that you're going to represent yourself, you have a fool for a client. That says it all. Greg won't have the ability to recognize that certain witnesses maybe have to be called. He'll probably get on the stand and give evidence. That's my guess. And he may either make it for himself because he'll show what a buffoon he is, or he'll destroy himself. I shouldn't have said that on tape, buffoon.

Right now, Greg is still waiting in jail. He's been there since his arrest in 2019, so I write him a letter to see if he wants to talk. I'm not sure if he'll call me back, but a few days later, my phone rings. Hello, hi, this is Kendall speaking. Uh, yes, Greg Furtuk calling from Suston, Rima. I wrote you a letter, but I didn't mail it away yet. That's okay. Okay. Anyways, in regard to that letter you sent me, I'll be very glad to give you an interview if you want to interview me. That sounds good. Do you want to chat for a bit on the phone now?

What do you want to do on the phone? First off, how are you doing? Not worth a shit, but thanks for asking. My dad used to always say, I've been stuck here for, let's see now, 1134 days in a 6x10 cell for 21 hours a day. So how do you think I feel? German Gestapo could have taken lessons from Saskatchewan. Tell me more about what it's been like. What it's been like? Yeah.

It's been hell, okay? Well, I'll give you an example. In September, we were locked up for 22 hours a day in our cells. All we got is cold food because we were locked up in our cells. Couldn't go out. Remember that song, Johnny Cash? I haven't seen the sunshine and I don't know when. I know calls from jail are usually limited to about 20 minutes,

so I try to move things along. Greg is 69 years old now, and I'm curious about his health. Oh, no, I've got some other people who've got COVID. I haven't got COVID. years old now and I'm curious about his health. I ask him how is his family doing. They got a place where you visit your family. They don't even have a phone to talk to them. You yell through this piece of steel that's got holes cut into it. I've never seen nothing so... It's like dealing with Flintstone equipment. I yell through steel.

My mother's 87 years old. She has a hard time hearing. And I'm yelling and it's echoing in that little cell I'm in and she's on the other side what did you say what did you say you know it was it was just ludicrous I says don't come anymore mom it's easy for us to uh talk on the phone I'm in here and she got moved into a senior's home first part of October here because there was nobody looking after her so she's in a senior's home right now. What I'm looking forward to is getting out and giving my mother a big hug.

That's what I'm looking forward to the most. Because I don't know how long she's going to be around. Greg says he's met some guys on the inside. He tells me about another Saskatchewan man who was also charged with murder. He was in remand here back in March. He was here two months and he was out on bail. I'm going on four years. That's why I made that statement in that I turned both of it into the law society. I asked Greg to clarify when was the moment he realized he was done with his lawyers? expert witness. I said, ask him if he checked another Ruger 1022. After he gives you the answer,

ask him, do you realize every Ruger 1022 in North America will match those shells in the gravel pit? After that, I just got pissed off. I said, I've never taken Morris Bodnar as my lawyer. He was retired and all he did was come out of retirement to take my money. There's an old saying, Veritas num hom peret, that's Latin for truth never perishes. And I believe in that. I didn't kill nobody and all I'm going to do is tell the truth, and I wrote down everything that was discussed through the trial, and as far as my evidence went. After going on 1,200 days and locked up in hell,

yeah, I want to get a little work done, or just bury me. Greg's own decisions have delayed the trial several months. Sherry's sisters are still longing for closure, but they hope the court gives Greg enough time to prepare. The last thing they want is a mistrial. I guess if he thinks he's smarter than the lawyers out there, then give her a whirl, buddy. It's like it was sort of out of nowhere.

Maybe it was all part of the plan. How? What do you mean? What plan? Maybe suggest something like this and he represents himself going forward potentially to maybe get a mistrial. Just a conspiracy theory. Do you think that came about once they found the gun evidence and then they thought they're hooped? Maybe. We hope the trial starts moving along faster for the sake of Sherry's family. But the truth is, it could take a lot longer for things to wrap up at court.

The judge's decision on the Vualia evidence is supposed to come soon. But we've thought that before. And with this case, it feels like anything could happen, especially as Greg takes matters into his own hands. I got a big list to beat out all the stuff I want to tell you. I can't do it in 20 minutes. If you could come down here and arrange an interview, that would be perfect. Okay, bye for now, Greg.

Okay, bye-bye. The Pit is a CBC investigative podcast. This episode was co-hosted by me, Alicia Bridges. It was written and mixed by Kendall Latimer. Our senior producer is Kareem Larson. Editorial guidance came from Paul Dornstader. If you've been enjoying the podcast, please leave a review or give us a rating or just tell your friends. For more CBC Podcasts, go to cbc.ca slash podcasts.