Uncover - S27 E4: DA’s secret | "Bloodlines"

Episode Date: July 21, 2024

Poonam returns to DA, now suspicious of the secret she is keeping. What was IS like through her eyes? What can she tell Poonam about some of the terror group’s most heinous crimes?

This is a CBC Podcast. It's early morning. Joanne and I are at breakfast, but we're not eating. We've barely touched the bread and honey on our table. We're too distracted, trying to make sense of a rumour we heard last night. We did not see this coming. We were not looking for this person. And yet she has landed right in front of us. She is DA. yet she has landed right in front of us. She is DA.

DA, the Canadian woman who we had met in Al-Raj, we knew ahead of time that she knew Baby Salman's Canadian mother and she was willing to give us information about it. When you come to a place like Syria, you have no idea who will speak with you until you get here. And in our hunt for Salman, we basically had no one. And then we had DA.

A woman we'd never heard of who knew Aisha, was friends with her, and was keen to talk. She's, in terms of a character, she's this petite young woman, very energetic, this sort of pixie-esque energy. She's flitting from one place to the other. Her words just rush out. She was incredibly, incredibly helpful.

She talked about Aisha Baby Salman's mum in terms of characterisation, lovely person, the sort of things that you would say about a friend who had passed away. DA seemed popular with the other women, well-connected, confident, and she seemed to care about Ash and his family. What we learned from DA brought Aisha and Salman to life. We now had a lead on where to go next, the last place where Aisha and Salman had been seen alive. But D.A. did not want to talk about herself or her ex-husband,

the father to her kids. Is he Canadian too? No, not at all. What nationality is he, if you don't mind sharing? Not really. Then last night, I got that tip. A little more than a rumour. But if true, DA's caginess, it started to make sense.

DA may have been married to one of the group of IS militants who kidnapped and beheaded Western journalists, aid workers and many others. The group notoriously known as the Beatles. Beatles. Alexander Coty and El Shafi El Sheikh and Mohamed Enwazi, they formed the kidnapped gang that became known as the Beatles because they were usually masked and their captors could hear only their British accents. The West London cell was seen as the worst of the worst, IS superstars who had an air of invulnerability. The US government alleges that the men waterboarded, crucified and executed prisoners. Defenseless journalists and aid workers were beheaded in front of the camera. Their gang is accused by the US of beheading Alan Henning, David Haynes and Americans James Foley, Peter Kasig and Stephen Sotloff.

There's no reason to believe DA was involved in their crimes, but there is a reason we need to speak to her. As the caliphate formed, tens of thousands streamed in from other parts of the world. But most foreigners were really just foot soldiers. And then there were the Beatles. They were, for lack of a better term, celebrity jihadists. And that afforded them a position close to the centre of IS. So, if DA was married to one of them, I want to know what she knows. I'm Poonam Taneja, and this is Bloodlines. Joanne and I are trying to see if this tip checks out, texting contacts and colleagues around the world,

piecing together what we know about each of the Beatles. There were three confirmed members. There's Mohamed Emwazi, dubbed Jihadi John by the British press, the masked executioner. We know Emwazi had a Syrian wife, not one from Canada, and DA told us her husband is still alive and in prison. Mwazi was killed in a drone strike years ago. Then there's Alexander Cote. Cote's in prison serving multiple life sentences in the US, but it's unlikely to be him. We know that Cote has two wives, one from the UK and one Syrian, no mention of a Canadian. That leaves us with one name. We narrowed it down to the fact that

she possibly could have been married to El Shafi El Sheikh. El Shafi El Sheikh, with his green combat fatigues, glock pistol and swagger. He's been described as IS aristocracy. El Sheikh was not the executioner in the videos the Beatles are synonymous with, but he did torture captives. Surviving hostages speak of his anger,

his love of violence, the pleasure he seemed to take in his own cruelty. He's currently serving eight life sentences in a supermax prison in the US. We knew he married a local Syrian woman, but soon we learned he had a wife before he left England, a Canadian of Ethiopian heritage. DA's family is Ethiopian. We also know the name of one of El Sheikh's sons. He was named after a close relative. So we look through documents we've obtained for the names of DA's kids.

DA registered her two boys in that list. Her older son's name is a match. And then the second name is Shafiq. So she had added a Q at the end of the name, but it's the first name of Shafiq al-Sheikh, the Beatles.

So it's possible that D.A. was married to al-Shafi'i al-Sheikh. But we need confirmation. but we need confirmation. Everyone in that camp must know. All those women must know. You can't keep a secret like that.

They were all socialising. Joanne and I have a lot of sources in the camp but they're not going to snitch on a sister. You know, because I think they're loyal to each other. They keep each other's secrets. There's really only one person who can confirm this. And that's DA herself. Morning, Juwan. We're heading off to Raj now. We're just getting our stuff sorted.

So the plan today really is I want to meet DA again. I plan on telling DA what I think I know about her. But before I can do that, I need to build a rapport with her so that when the questions become difficult, she doesn't just end the interview. If she does, I'll have lost my only real connection to Salman. And my search for him is far from over. I think we have a long day ahead of us and we, I think we are prepared for it.

I hope so. We've got all our kit. I just want to make sure I've got baby Salman's photos again, just in case I need to show them in the camp. Yeah, I think we can leave now. We have two hours in the camp, which gives us about 90 minutes with DA. We have two hours in the camp, which gives us about 90 minutes with DA. OK, we're just going to go walk through a gap in the fence and walk into this section of the camp. Careful.

Usually we're not allowed in the tents, but today we have the same guard, the young woman who gave me her scarf and carries a pistol in her jeans. She gives me a hug when we meet again. Right, we're in DA's section of the camp. Women here call these divided sections cages. It's because they're fenced off. OK, here is DA's tent. I'm going to just go and see if she's in.

Do you want to come in? I'd love to come in. The guard stays outside, which is good for us. Listen, can Juwan come here and stay here in this part? Juwan, come in. Listen, can Juwan come here and stay here in this part? Juwan, come in. Inside her tent, DA's not wearing a veil.

It's the first time I've seen her face. She's alert but relaxed. Not at all intimidated by a couple of journalists in her home. How are you doing? This is very clean, this tent. The tent feels bigger once we step in it. We sit in a small section that serves as the living room. There's a television and a makeshift sofa

covered with blankets. This is your pet cat. You have a little pet cat. This is Frida lives here. Frida. Okay. And this is your TV and this is your sleeping area on the right. No, here, this is like a little study play area for the kids.

Okay, you've divided this up to make it quite cosy. Yeah, I try. It's easy to forget, but this is an interview in custody. We may be sitting in her home, but DA is a prisoner in this camp. And this is her jail cell. So DA, should we just have a little sit down? Are you OK with that? I'm next to DA on the couch. Joanne's seated on the floor with the recorder opposite us.

DA's kids are also walking in and out. Hi, how are you? Oh, he's shy today. Is he? He just came from the park, he just looks like a mess. There's a park down the road a bit. Uh-huh. What is it like for them, living in these conditions? It's like living in a zoo, I feel like, for them. There's no order, there's no schedule, there's no routine.

It's just out and about, you know? They're just... just out, outside. Just wondering, you know? Were they both born in the region? Mm-hm. Both of them? Mm-hm.

OK, when the eldest was born here, who was around you to help you? Neighbors, neighbors. So they helped me with the child. Was his dad not on the scene at that point? Yeah, he was around. He was around. Was he supportive? Yeah, yeah, of course. Yeah. What city was that? Was it Raqqa? Yeah, yeah, yeah, he was born in Raqqa I asked her what life was like in Raqqa which was IS's de facto capital The roundabout in the city centre became synonymous with IS Executions were commonplace there

and so were the severed heads displayed afterwards You're living under it, but it's like you're not really living were commonplace there. And so were the severed heads displayed afterwards. You're living under it, but it's like you're not really living, you're not affected by it directly. I haven't seen what they did, I've never, you know, like first-hand seen it, you're in your house,

you know, I go over to, like Aisha comes over, we have sleepover, we go to a restaurant, you know, there was one time we all went out for a restaurant, it was like a, like a playing for the kids, like a Ferris wheel, all this stuff.

You know what I mean? Like these are things that you do, but maybe at the same time, something horrific is happening, but it's not something you sing. You know what I mean? It's like a double life. I don't know how to explain it, you know? D.A. paints life in her corner of the caliphate as ordinary, maybe even a bit posh.

And it sounds like Aisha was part of this corner too. And you didn't ever meet Musafira, who was Harun's second wife? I think I've seen her maybe once or twice. Soon after Salman's dad, Harun, married Aisha, he took on a second wife, his cousin's widow. Polygamy was common under IS. Was Aisha okay with that? Haroon taking on a second wife? I know. She said they were their family, so I don't think she'll have a problem with it. She's very, no, Aisha was, no, she wouldn't. She wouldn't have a problem. The idea of polygamy didn't, she was fine with it.

Yeah, I remember she was fine with it. That's a tough concept to get your head around. Of course, of course, of course. Was that an issue in your marriage? Mine? Yeah, it's always going to be jealousy, you know. You know, it's

normal, I guess. I won't do it again. Right, so your husband had another wife? Mm, mm-hmm, mm-hmm. That must have been tricky. Mm, yeah. Yeah. You said jealousy.

Oh, my gosh. It happens. Yeah. You look deep in thought at this point, DA. No, I'm over it. Are you over it? It was a long, long, long, long, long time ago. Very long time ago.

So by your reaction, am I right in thinking that you were not okay with it? Not really a choice, right? You're in it. You just have to, you don't think you deal with it. Just like a lot of many things

so, like this. in it. You just have to, you don't need to deal with it. Just like a lot of many things. Like this. And then the second child as well, where was your youngest born then? After Raka got taken, we all moved to another city village, I don't know. After the birth of her second son,

DA says she and her husband divorce. We know El Sheikh goes on the run about this time and is captured. By 2019, IS is on the brink of defeat. Its remaining members are slowly being cornered towards the village of Baghouz. The siege was really, really intense. Then you're just looking for any piece of grass you can eat on the ground.

You know what I mean? It was getting a lot. Nothing was coming in. It was a time where nothing was coming in. At least we had a lot of pomegranate because it was something locally grown. So there's a lot of pomegranate. So we were thankful for that. What were they saying to you as little kids?

They must have been... He was young, but my... My older one, I don't know, something changed in him. I remember thinking right before Barus, it's like he was kind of, he would just lie there. Maybe this time he was maybe three, three and a half. He would just lie there and it was cold and just look around.

He would be there for hours. It's like he would make something happen. I don't know. He just wouldn't talk anymore. So just went blank. I don't know. I just felt bad for them, you know. I just felt really bad for them

and all the kids, you know. There were many people who lost their kids. So at least I was thankful that I still have them, you know. There were many people who lost their kids. So at least I was thankful that I still have them. Many, many people here lost their kids. As the caliphate news collapsed, D.A.'s children are aged three and one. Salman is two. And his sister is only a few months old.

Whatever you think about women like Diyah and Aisha, women who chose to live under the caliphate, their children made no such choice. It was around this time Aisha sent Ash and his wife the last photo of Salman. The one where he looked scared and emaciated, his face partially bandaged. She also sent this message. Wallahi, you know, I love you so message. Walahi means I swear to God. Ash begged Aisha to flee at this time but she didn't. DA left before the worst of the fighting, escaping through the desert with her kids,

before surrendering to Kurdish forces and ending up in the prison camps. Your background as a person, did that equip you for this kind of stuff? Oh God, no, no. Before I came, Syria. Yeah, yeah. You're from Toronto. Yeah. So you are a city girl. Yeah, yeah.

Were you a student or did you have a job or anything? Yeah, yeah, I graduated. In what? I got from university. Huh? Did you graduate in? I did English. Nothing prepared me for this. No, nothing. Nothing prepared me. Nothing prepared me for this. And that's why things keep moving forward. But I feel like as we're stuck in this camp, imagine for almost four years, it's about time that I move on with my life and my kids can have a regular life. And the other day, my son was watching a cartoon and he saw a regular door with a doorknob.

And he's like, does grandma have that thing, that circle thing on the door when you turn it, it opens? I'm like, a doorknob? door when you turn it, it opens. I'm like, a doorknob? Yeah, you turn it, it opens. It opens the door. I think he thinks something's magical or something. And I'm like... He's never seen one. I'm like, a door? I said, yeah.

And he calls his brother, hey, grandma has a what is it called? A doorknob. Grandma has a doorknob in her house. And where's Grandma? Toronto? I was telling her, she's waiting for you. And then when they said people leave, I said, we're going to go. It's going to be our turn. How come we can't go? I said, because the bus is not here yet.

When's the bus coming? I said, it's going to come soon. How do you think people in Canada view you? How do you think people in Canada view you? I don't know, maybe they leave us here to rot, I don't know. You know, I understand, you know, why the extra headache and the extra risk of an ISIS woman coming back to the country. I understand, but at the same time, there are people I know who support the idea as coming back as a rehabilitation to help them, to help them if they're not charged to reintegrate back in society,

to get their life, you know, if they need to face prosecution, then they face the prosecution that, you know, that they have to. But leaving them here is in a, here is not a long-term solution. At the time of this interview, November 2022, relatives of some of the Canadians held in these camps and prisons are battling with the government in court. They argue that Canada has a responsibility to bring back its citizens. So, D.A. knows that she and her kids might be heading to Canada in the coming months. If that happens, there's a good chance she will be arrested as soon as she steps off the plane. And you're prepared to do jail time?

Yeah, if I have to. And? Just to be clear, I don't want to. Who is that? Because I guess to people in, well, I know that to people in Canada, you are, your description of it was ISIS woman. No, I say that because I think it's how they see, how they view. Not ISIS woman, as in like, I was a part of ISIS and I joined and I was participating.

No, nothing like this. Weren't you? Because you did join ISIS. No, I didn't join. I didn't join, I came, I didn't join. When I think of join, I mean you participating. You are out there actively doing something for the caliphate. You know what I mean? Join. But living under the caliphate, that's complicit, no?

What do you mean? It's complicit with IS, isn't it? Agreeing with it? Not necessarily, because there are people there that didn't agree with it. They stayed, you know. They stayed. Did you agree with it?

No, no. I didn't know what I was getting myself into. Like, my story is really... I didn't know where i was getting myself into like my story is really i don't know what i was joining joining quote unquote joining quote unquote how come you didn't know what were you 20 it's a long story we've got time we've got nowhere to go no No, I was really advised not to. By your lawyers? Yeah, this is something that has to be discussed

when I get to Canada. You say, just so that I have this correct, you didn't join. You have your own story. Your lawyers have advised you not to get into it. But

what about now? What are your thoughts about the organization and the people that carried out some really horrific acts? Oh, my God, it was very, of course, it was very horrific. It was really brutal. You know, one of the worst things that anyone can ever see in their entire life, you know? What do you think about the fact that Yazidi women were taken

and they were raped and they were used as slaves? That's really... That's horrible. Yeah. Did you have slaves living with you? No. Slaves living with them? No. I knew this was happening. It's like talk.

Talk, you know, that people had slaves and, you know, I didn't necessarily know it was Yazidi. I didn't know what Yazidi meant. I feel like, you know, you're living in a bubble. I didn't understand even how big it was. Because I was in Canada, no one talked about IS

at that time, you know what I mean? It wasn't something that you see. I used to watch the news. It wasn't something I'd seen. So I didn't know after how many years later how expanded, how the influence became and how, you know, it wasn't... DA left Canada for Syria in late 2014 when IS was at the height of its notoriety. This was after the killings of American journalists

James Foley and Stephen Sotloff and British aid workers David Haynes and Alan Henning, where news of their deaths was everywhere. DA, I'm just going to stop you one second. You didn't see the beheading videos? I did, but I didn't... You didn't, I wasn't on internet. I didn't know how many people were watching. It wasn't something, when I was in Canada, something that was in my eyes. You know what I mean? It wasn't in my face. Maybe I was just really naive about it, or, you know. I've spoken to a lot of women like D.A., women who married IS fighters.

There's often a collective amnesia, a lot of denial. Some actually were victims or tragically naive. A lot of them blame their partners. Some are utterly unrepentant. And others, they'll say anything to get home. In the end, it comes down to three things. The lies they were told, the lies they're telling me, and the lies they're telling themselves. And so we're going to...

Wait, do you mind if we, when you ask me about the ISIS? Because I won't sit well in the camp. Okay, no, no. You know what I mean? DA lowers her voice a bit, so it might be hard to catch what she's saying. She's asking me to not air her condemnation of IS, as she fears how other women in the camp will respond.

Are there still women that will give you a hard time for saying that? Yeah, not like... Yeah, kind of. This is part of the danger of these camps. Women still police themselves, and others, by the rules of IS. Some with an iron fist. Sometimes lethally. I know, I know, I won't say well.

We're going to be very mindful of what we put out while you're here we're almost out of time in DA's tent any minute the guard will walk in and end our conversation I ask if she'll sit down with us again in a few days. DA agrees, and I make the decision to not ask about El Shafi El Sheikh today. So, I mean, we'll see you on Saturday anyway, but if we just get you, like, with your kids

or just get some sounds of... But with DA watching, I can't find a way to tell Juwan I've changed our plan. Jessica, we can ask a couple of questions. I've been thinking, you say your children always ask about your grandmother and the stuff back home. Have they ever asked you about their father? No. No. No, no, they don't. Generally, the kids here, they don't understand that concept of a father.

Any man is their father. They don't understand what a dad is. They don't remember him. They don't know his face. I don't show him. I don't have a picture, you know what I mean? So they know you have a dad and we have the same dad. They think sometimes my dad is their dad.

You know what I mean? So they don't know. They don't ask about him like where is daddy or anything you know or how is daddy or what tell they know their dad is in prison right okay that's all that's as much as he's in prison yeah this much is it okay and nearby nearby Nearby? No, really. Nearly nearby. Somewhere. Do you tell them anything about the father? There was a time where I just...

Little stories, not so much. Do you miss him? Oh. Their dad. Yeah, I miss the... Let's cut that question out. And that's it. Our time in the camp is up.

I worry she's on to us now, that she might pull back or even cancel our next interview. But by evening, she confirms. I'll have to wait, but I will get to ask her the question I need to. Two days later, I'm back at Raj camp. Today I'm in the tent alone with DA and a friend of hers you'll hear her laughing in the background from time to time okay right I'm just going to check that we are recording

which we are so DA I'm going to ask you something and it's up to you how you answer. EncroChat was used by 60,000 criminals around the world. In summer 2020, police revealed they've penetrated an encrypted phone network favoured by criminals. EncroChat. EncroChat. Suddenly, the police were reading millions of messages Penetrated an encrypted phone network favoured by criminals. EncroChat. EncroChat.

Suddenly, the police were reading millions of messages being sent from inside the world of organised crime. Corruption. Money laundering. Firearms. It was like being in a room with them and they are talking freely. At a time when the Met is in the headlines for all the wrong reasons. Do you trust the Metropolitan Police? It's a rare story of something that has actually

gone right. Wow, this is quite major, isn't it? Catching the Kingpins. Listen on BBC Sounds. Uncover from CBC Podcasts brings you award-winning investigations year-round. But if you want to listen ahead, all episodes of Bloodlines are available right now. If you want to listen ahead, all episodes of Bloodlines are available right now. Binge listen to the entire series by searching Bloodlines wherever you get your podcasts. You can also listen ad-free by subscribing to the CBC True Crime channel on Apple Podcasts. Uncover the best in true crime. I've heard that your husband's British.

And it's... I've heard that he sells Shafi'i al-Sheikh. So I'm going to have to ask you. I mean, we'll talk about... I didn't want it out. That's okay. Okay, I... I didn't want it out. That's a good one. Okay. This is, I don't, I didn't want it out, especially on me, because I didn't want that association at all.

At, at, at all. None whatsoever. So I wanted people to judge me for me and my story for my story, not have it associated with him and what he did. I know you knew. You knew. I know you're itching for that question about shopping. You know, one time, another day, Joanne, she said something at the end.

He's like, can I have you here? And then she's like, Sally asked you something about your husband. And I'm like, they know. I'm going to wait for them to, I'm going to wait for them to say it. How do you feel about it? You were married to someone who quite,

I mean, let's, let me put it bluntly. You didn't know? No. What he's been convicted of, I didn't know. I didn't know. I didn't understand it at that time. I didn't understand why I can't just go, you know, to a friend's house for a little bit.

I didn't understand why he always had to know who it was. This is why we couldn't go out so much. Why he was so paranoid about, paranoid about who comes to the house. He was, you know, if there was like hearings of drones or why we had to rush home or all this paranoia. You know what I mean? Things that you just it was more like, OK, you have to do this, you have to do this. But I didn't understand. I explained why. So later when I found out, oh, because they were looking for me,

he was accused of being one of the Beatles and this and that. Oh, that's why I was like, lived like I was in prison. But given who, given Al Shafi's role, did you not know at all that this is what he was doing? No. God, no. No. He didn't share anything like that with you? No, he wouldn't. He wouldn't. He wouldn't share anything. Anything! I can't even ask him where you're going.

He was very tight-lipped about everything. Tight-lipped about everything. Don't ask. Don't ask where I am. Don't ask where I'm going. Don't ask where I went. Don't ask who is that. Don't ask who's, you know, who's coming. Don't ask who's in the other room. Again and again, in different ways, I asked DA the same question.

How could you not know? Her answer never changes. Because he never told me. The caliphate was, and to a large extent still is, an information black hole. Husbands did control much of what women saw and did and knew. But even if he did tell her, or even if she had pieced it together, it's clear she's not going to tell me. Certainly not here, not now. We got married in Canada.

So how did you guys meet? That's the thing. I met, he was like a little low-key neighborhood. I am interested. How did you guys meet? He was in Britain, you were in Canada. Smoking weed. I didn't care about God. It was nothing to do with IS. DA and Elshake met in Toronto back in 2007. She was 17, he was 19. Elshake was visiting family and soon returned to London.

But they stayed in touch and fell for each other across the Atlantic. Well, what did you fall in love with? I'm just curious. What did you fall in love with? What kind of guy was he? He was someone who loves love. He was. he was very romantic

you know I know it's kind of hard to believe I know he was romantic in what way like even though he was in Britain he always used to just randomly send me gifts you know to my door

to my door you know what I mean like these things I was thinking anything that reminded me of him of you know what I mean like these kind of

jewellery or books or anything you know what I mean? Like these kind of jewellery or books or anything, you know what I mean? He cared a lot. He cared a lot about me. In 2010, they married in an Islamic ceremony in Canada. El-Sheikh returned to London, but DA stayed in Toronto to continue her studies. You know, we didn't spend much time together. You know, he was still in much time together. You know, he was still in the UK and I was still in Canada. So a lot of our relationship was just like on the internet. After we got married, just spent maybe a summer, he went back. One year later, come back for a summer because I was still studying, go back. And maybe in two years,

he spent maybe four months together and that was it I didn't see much of him you know I didn't see much of him and was he okay about you studying and all of that kind of stuff yeah up until a certain point he was becoming a lot more religious

a lot more religious the free mixing, I wasn't wearing a veil, and the stuff he really wanted me to do. And what did you say? I didn't want it. You know, I really kind of pushed it to the side, you know. El Sheikh soon became extremist in his beliefs and found his fellow Beatles in West London.

Because I remember when I met Shafi, he was nothing. He didn't believe in God. So something on their lands made them become this radical. In 2012, he travelled to Syria to fight in the civil war against Bashar al-Assad's regime. At the time, it was involved in a violent and brutal crackdown against its own people. IS was formed a year after al-Sheikh arrived in Syria, and pretty soon he was climbing the ranks.

He was encouraging you to go over, I'm guessing. That's the thing, he was here two years before I came. So in the whole two years, I was saying, no, no, no, no. Why? Why am I going to go? No, it's not for peace for me. No. I remember back in Canada, I remember asking, what city do you live in? Just for me, just to follow what's happening. He wouldn't tell me. He wouldn't tell me. He's just like, don't worry about it. It's nothing. Don't worry about it. So how was your day?

While DA says El Sheikh gave her few answers, she claims Canadian authorities came to her with questions. I remember the Canadian government used to come to me, CSIS used to come to me and ask me, do you know about journalists?

Do you show me pictures? CSIS is Canada's intelligence service. And I said, I didn't understand what you're talking about. He's like, yeah, it's all over the news, you know. And I think they had a hunch even before I came that it could have been, because I know they were British. We asked CSIS about this, but they say they aren't able to comment on the specifics of any case. You know, that's the thing. I think that's one of the reasons why, I think that's why I'm hoping, that's why they know I didn't have nothing to do with it. Because they were already, a year before I came, C-SYS was already always visiting me all the time, contacting me all the time.

They can see my conversation, they can hear my conversations, you know what I mean? Every time I talk to him, they'll call me the next day or come on and meet me. Oh, so you haven't talked to Shaft recently? And they know I just, I just spoke to him, you know what I mean? So maybe DA's husband told her nothing of what was happening in Syria or what he was doing there. But the Canadian authorities seem to have told her a lot, and yet she left to join him anyway. And so when you travelled, how did you travel then?

Because you were known to see this. So how did you manage to get to Iraq slash Syria? Just hop on a plane. OK. To Turkey? Yeah, it was just it was really simple did he arrange all of it or did you have your own contacts

yeah no no he arranged everything right okay yeah what was the tipping point why why did you suddenly decide yes

I want to go over what what did he say to persuade you come check it out you could go back. As if it was so simple. Just carry on with me. Three pairs of

pants and two t-shirts and I was like, oh, okay. I'm on winter break. I have exams coming up next week. I think I even packed my textbooks to study, you know, back from my exams. I didn't think it was somewhere I was gonna say, yeah, yeah, just come and you check it out and you'll see. I'm like, I can go back? I can come back? Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Just a reminder, DA left Canada in the weeks after IS released videos of the executions of Western hostages. I'm actually grateful to him for not telling me anything, showing me anything, because I feel like maybe it protected me, you know, of any type of accountability. I know it's dangerous when you have the intent of coming, when you know what you're coming to, you know, going back to Canada and having the possibility of facing prosecution.

I know not knowing what was happening when I can't even know what ISIS even stood for. So I can say I didn't even have the intent of joining a terrorist organization. How did he treat you at this point? Yeah, he wasn't around so much. He was around, but it Yeah, he wasn't around so much. He was around, but it's like he wasn't around. And it really, it went downhill very fast. That's not the person I met, you know what I mean?

I think Sarah really changed him. I think the two years really changed him. You know, and I seen that difference when I came. It was, we weren't compatible anymore. Forget ISIS. In the home, we just weren't compatible anymore. Forget ISIS. In the home, we just weren't compatible anymore. You know what I mean?

He came to Syria and he had a different standard. I was still the same person, same city girl, and he wanted a more traditional girl. You know what I mean? Because he really absorbed how it's supposed to be here. know how a woman or a wife or somebody and it just didn't work out and I just I just didn't want anything to do with it you know what I mean I wanted a divorce for so long and had nothing to do with what he was you know what he's been convicted of doing it's just a whole big mess. Oh God, I just feel like

I can't believe this is me. I got it from all people, from all men. This has to be him. What do you think about the brutality? Some of which, now that we are all open, some of which was committed,

the worst of which was committed by your ex-husband, the father of children it's horrific it's horrific it's uh something i don't i can't even understand any human can you know it can do just for what just for show it was you know what i mean i just i didn't understand the benefit of it it's just because because this person is a foreigner and let's just let's just put fear and let's make the world seem we're on top

of the world and we control everything like maybe that kind of stubbornness and pridefulness is what is what ended what you know

making them face such a a harsh sentence do you think that was what happened the power just gone to his head yeah Yeah, I think for a

lot of people. That invincible kind of feeling that you're in it now, you're just living, they're living in that moment that you think that nothing can touch me, you know, nothing can happen. I think people got caught up in the moment without thinking, just doing things because you just feel powerful in that moment. Because he was cruel. He did evil stuff to journalists, aid workers. Yeah, yeah, yeah. They seem really cowardly, kind of, you know, in a way. The people that can't even help themselves,

that can't even, they're not here to fight nobody. Do you have any contact with him now or is that over? Yeah, I just one time, just one time his lawyer contacted me way back in January. And that was it. Talked to him one time, his lawyer contacted me way back in January. And that was it. Talked to him one time. The Red Cross letter used to come. Maybe I got two or three from him before.

What was he saying? Asking for forgiveness. From you? Yeah. Really? What did he want forgiveness for? Our relationship went bad. It went really bad and downhill and just, you know, this.

And I think maybe all this mess. He wants me to get out. He wants me to go back to my country. He wants me to go back to my parents and like this. I don't know if he's, you know, bringing me here, telling me to come and like this. Like this, maybe. So he's been asking you for forgiveness? Yeah, like this.

Maybe getting into all this mess. You know, like this. He wrote to you. Did you write back? Mm-hmm. What did you say? I talked about the kids. He, you know, talked about the kids and stuff. What would you say to him now?

What would I say to him now? I would... I just want... I would love to ask him, was it worth it? Was all this worth it? Was it worth it? You know, missing out, now you're going to miss out on your kids' lives, you know, seeing them grow up. Was it all worth it? Maybe one day, I'll ask him. Do you ever think about his victims?

Especially when I saw the video, not the actual video, like the documentary like this. DA starts talking about his victims' families. I heard they traveled to Syria and they're like really proactive in finding what happened to their loved one, you know, getting the answers that they want. The terror group's last act of cruelty was to conceal the locations of the victims' remains. In the years since, their families and governments have tried to find them. Nearly a decade after their deaths, their bodies have not yet been laid to rest.

Dia, you still have some influence over him, don't you? I really think I do. I think I do. For the first time, I think for the first time he feels he's vulnerable. He's in a position of no power. He's in a position where he needs everyone else. You know what I mean? He needs other people. There are people who still don't know where their loved ones are buried or what happened to their loved ones. Do you think you have enough influence to persuade him to hand over that information?

And would you use it? If I got the chance to, but, you know, no one has came forward. No one has asked, no one... You know, so... We'll see. Once again, our time is up. I plan to keep in touch with DA after I leave Syria. Who knows if her offer is real or if al-Sheikh would be allowed or willing to talk,

whether he even has any information to share. I would never raise the hopes of the relatives of those who were killed, but I plan to pass this information along to them. For now, I have seven more days in Syria, and one big journey ahead of me, to Baghouz, the last stronghold of the caliphate, the place where Salman was last seen alive. the place where Salman was last seen alive. Next time, on Bloodlines. And there are still remnants of belongings here.

There are what looks like a baby's blanket, just where I'm standing. There's a child's shoe. It's black with little pink piping. I think for me the hardest part is being aware that there were children seeking refuge here. Now you realise that they've died here. You've been listening to Bloodlines from BBC Sounds and CBC Podcasts. The series concept and reporting by me, Poonam Taneja. It's written and produced by Fiona Woods and Alina Ghosh.

Our investigations producer is Juwan Abdi and our contributing producer is Michelle Shepherd. Fahad Fattah is our field producer. Our sound designer is Julia Whitman. Thank you. and Arif Noorani is the director. Claire McGinn is the executive director of BBC's Creative Development Unit. BBC Commissioner is Ahmed Hussain, head of the BBC Asia Network. Thank you for listening to Bloodlines. For more CBC Podcasts, go to cbc.ca slash podcasts.