Uncover - S27 E7: No Tears Left | "Bloodlines"

Episode Date: July 18, 2024

Poonam travels to Canada for an unexpected meeting and returns to London where she shares what she has discovered with Ash.

This is a CBC Podcast. I'm Merle. Hello. It's October 2023, nearly a year since I was in Syria. I've just arrived at the door of an apartment in Toronto. Is there enough or is it just me? The woman greeting me is Jure Ahmed. You know her as DA. A few months after I interviewed her in Syria,

Jure and her two boys were on a plane to Canada. Getting ready for school. Yeah, washing up. He's just washing up in the bathtub. Have a seat, I'm just going to quickly dress him, OK? Sure. I'm in Jure's family home, sitting in her living room with her older son.

The walls are covered with children's drawings. This is nice. Did you do this? Huh? Did you do this? Mm-hm. Look at this. This is beautiful. Is that a robot?

It's Minecraft. Oh, Minecraft. Do you watch Minecraft? No. I've wondered what would become of these kids if they were left there. And now, I get to see them here. My brother, he gotta learn how to draw. He's still small.

You know what I like? He's still small. You know what I like? I like to do science and stuff. Even my friend, like his birthday, we're going to a science place where he can make science stuff. I walk with Geray to her kids' school and back. That's the furthest she's allowed to go on her own. So it's been a long time since I last saw you, almost a year under very, very different circumstances. Yeah. It's the time that I've been

waiting for, you know. I'm really glad to see you. Somebody who understands, that can see me here and understand what I went through, my kids been through and tell me what happened from the time that you were told that you were leaving that day that you were returning to Canada it was around 1 a.m um I was just about going to sleep I feel like I was half asleep half awake awake. And then these two Kurdish women came inside my tent and was like, what's your name? Where are you from? And I told them my name and I told them I'm from Canada. They're like, pack your bags. You're leaving in five hours. So yeah, we just, we left that same day. We got on the plane. It was just very noisy. It was a military plane.

So you have to have earplugs in. And I felt like we didn't know what we were getting, like what would happen when we land, you know, getting charged or getting arrested and stuff. As she touched down on Canadian soil, Jure was arrested. Her children were given to her family. When the kids asked where she'd gone,

her family told them she'd forgotten something in the camp. After a few nights in jail, she was granted bail and now lives under what's called a terrorism peace bond. It imposes conditions similar to house arrest. My conditions now is pretty, it's pretty restrictive. I can still be with my kids. You know, I can still be out a bit, you know, at further school and whatnot.

And, you know, if there's any medical or doctors or anything appointments. And I think that's very important that people should know because I think there's probably people out there thinking, why aren't these people in jail? You were born in Canada. You left Canada to live under IS and Canada brought you back and you're getting a lot of support well I'm sure there are a number of Canadians who feel you don't deserve it I like I I understand like that's that's maybe they feel that I'm making this place not a safe place anymore for them, for their children.

And I do get it. I do get it. Because if you're left, why do you deserve to come back? Jure could still end up in jail. The authorities are still investigating. From a legal point of view it's not enough that women like Jure travel to Syria and lived under the caliphate. The prosecution needs to be able to prove

that she knew what she was signing up for. So far, two Canadian women who've returned from the camps have been charged with terror-related offences. So, I want to go to what's happening now. You are having therapy, child counselling. Counselling, I have a counsell counselor, outreach worker, child therapist, and there's some child and youth workers, too, that put my kids in programs and sit with them and play and interact with them just to get them comfortable with other kids. They've only recently started school. So what has it been like? They've only recently started school.

So what has it been like? I was definitely anxious of how they will fit in and adjust to... It's such a different environment. I think in the camp, it's a more harsher... The kids are more harsh. A lot of name-calling and hitting and a lot of aggression with the kids. So I have to really make sure they understand that you don't hit. If you get angry, you don't hit. You tell an adult.

So now it's been about a month since they're in school, and they love it. They love being at school, and I love how they're in school and they love it they love being at school and I love how they're making friends I love how other kids are accepting them and they're accepting other people um they're great with their teachers you know their teachers are just it's a happy place for them it's a really happy place and I see it and I remember in the camp, they had never seen a doorknob. What was it like when they first came back? They're excited. Escalators, exciting. Elevators, it's still exciting. I remember when we first came in tents. Tents was something he was expecting to see, at least one or two, you know, somewhere.

And he did, when we went to school, he did ask, how come there's no soldiers at the school? And one thing I'm working on now is identity. You know, he's asking questions about, it's the beginning of school, you talk about yourself, your family, you talk about who your family you talk about who you are maybe what country you came from just getting to know there was one day where he came right out of the schoolyard and he just immediately asked me why was I in the camp why did it take so long for me to come here and I haven't talked to him a lot about it because I don't know how much to tell. You just raised a really important point. He was born under the IS caliphate, under one of the most brutal regimes around. And his dad,

well, one of the most notorious IS militants. How are you going to break that, all of those things to him? That's something obviously I'm not looking forward to, but I'm still, I'm not there yet. You know, I don't know exactly how I will do that right now. Like now when I talk to him about the camp and why it took so long, I just say things like, oh, the plane just took too long. They did know that their father was in prison, and he was in prison in America. It was only when they were understanding what prison is and who goes to prison, then they'll say, okay, but prison's not for bad people. So why, what did dad do?

You know, and I always have this like pit in my stomach when he asked me this and I wasn't ready to say. It's something that I just have to do, but always reassure them that just because your father is like this doesn't mean you will ever come close or be, you know, be like him. Jure, do you ever feel guilt? Of course, of course. I feel guilty for, first and foremost, putting myself in a situation where I harmed my family. I put them through something that was so unbearable. I'm the type of person who doesn't like to confront. And they try to get into how they, you know, that time when I left and I was like, I'm here now.

You know, that all that matters. You know what I mean? Is it those? I mean, they're trying to communicate that. I know. You cause them pain. Exactly. And I know it's so bad, but it's so hard for me to deal with it.

It just makes me want to just shrivel up in a corner and just cry. Have you apologized to them? Yeah, I did. I think they want a bit more of a apology. Of course, I don't know how much apologies, I don't know how much apologies, but I really hope they know that I do feel it. I might not show it.

Do you think you owe anybody else an apology? Probably. Probably. But I probably work on my family. Do you ever think about your own role in the actions that have led you here? Yeah, and this is what I am going through right now. And I am accepting what I've done. And I know I played this role of being ignorant, you know, and just thinking, hoping things will just go away.

And then also admitting that this is also the father of my children, you know, and I wasn't ready to feel that I have to have that conversation with them when they get older. I feel that I have to have that conversation with them when they get older. You know, that for most people, all people, you know, listening to this and seeing his story, he's that man that did all those horrible, horrific things and deserved to be in Jonah. I totally understand that. But to me, there's another layer to it. That this is somebody who shared the same DNA and blood as my kids, you know. What did you think he saw their future as? What is it in his own image?

What he would want from them? Yeah. Probably to stay in the Islamic State and become like all the other fighters. Is that what kids were supposed to be? Yeah, of course, because there's nothing else for them to do, you know? Just to pass on that sense of responsibility on the kids. And that's what they're always made to become.

This is what IS wanted for its children, what El Shafi El Sheikh wanted for his sons. But instead, they're here. How was school today? Fun. What did you do? You know, I went to my friend's birthday. And look what they gave me.

What is it? Halloween? And everyone had it. It's just the same candy. I'm Poonam Taneja, and this is the final chapter of Bloodlines. Jure and her kids were part of a larger group of Canadians repatriated this year. 19 fewer people in the camps in northeast Syria. Nearly 50,000 remain, the majority are children. But there's someone whose job it is to lower that number.

A considerable amount of my time is spent on what is a really high priority for the U.S. government, which is reducing the populations of displaced persons and detainees in northeast Syria. This is Ian Moss. Ian's a senior member of the Counterterrorism Bureau at the U.S. State Department. It is the United States government's view that it is imperative that governments with nationals in northeast Syria repatriate them. That's especially the case with children, because they didn't ask to be there, and the longer they're there, the more that they are suffering. The U.S. was a frontrunner when it came to repatriations.

Children, women and men. when it came to repatriations. Children, women and men. The reality is the longer individuals are left in what honestly is a situation of despair in northeast Syria, the less secure all of us are. It is not unlikely the case that some of these individuals at least, even some that present security concerns, may find their way back one way or another. It's probably best, I take that back, it is best

that we bring folks back in a way that allows us to exercise some control over the process as opposed to leaving it to chance. to leaving it to chance. The U.S. is working to get other countries to adopt the same stance. But some countries argue that they don't have the legal powers or the evidence they need to prosecute everyone who poses a risk. Nor do they have the surveillance capabilities to keep an eye on them. I am not under any illusion that this is easy. It's a hard thing to do, but we have the expertise, we have the structures in place to be able to do this in a safe and humane way. But at its core, a significant influential factor is political will.

What are the risks of, as you say, leaving them there. I don't subscribe to the view that all of these children are baby ISIS. I think that is an unfortunate characterization and one that unfortunately serves to inflame and appeal to instincts of fear. It is the case, however, the longer you leave folks without an alternative, the more susceptible and vulnerable they are to recruitment by actors who don't have their interest in mind, but rather want to exploit them. Is it a race against time, Ian, to bring some of these children back? Yes, every day counts. Every day matters. Every day they're not in school matters.

Every day that they are feeling insecure because of the environment that they are in matters. So the sooner they're out, the better. Hello, Granny. Hello, Granny. How are you? For years, Charlene, the London nurse we met early in the series, has watched her grandkids grow up from afar.

Now I'm back in London, I meet with Charlene again. Her daughter and grandkids remain in the camps. And you showed me a video earlier on. Yeah, that was, that was the girls sending me, just to show me what they've been doing, you know. Yeah, growing really fast though. They are growing really fast. How does that make you feel? It's been a while.

I was thinking, actually, on my way here, that I've seen them actually more than you have in the last few years. I interviewed Charlene's daughter, Nicole, a couple of years ago. I met with her and her daughters again on this trip. But Nicole didn't want to be interviewed this time. Yeah, yeah, it's true because, like, you know, like the small one,

if you think about it, when she left here, she was one going on two. She should be ten in a couple of years, innit? And, like, the middle one, that one should have been starting secondary school now. And the eldest one, you know, she would be, you know, getting ready to start doing her subjects for her GCSEs. Yeah. She's a young lady now, isn't she? She's going to be 14? She's 14. Yeah, She's a young lady now, isn't she? She's going to be 14? She's 14.

Yeah, she's 14. It's been almost a year since I met them last. It does feel like they're stuck from what you're just saying. Yeah, it is, you know. Wow. You know, but I'm still thinking one thing, one thing that I didn't say is that... Isaac.

Yeah. Nicole went to Syria with four children, the three daughters I met, and a son, Isaac. You know, I got the code, and they put him in my hands, and it was I who brought him out, you know, to introduce him to everybody.

What a fat, chubby boy that boy was. Isaac was Charlene's first grandchild. Last thing I remember of Isaac is him and, you know, and the other kids down the bottom of the stairs there. You know, when they left crying, these kids, they cried so much, you know. Then they were like, oh, we don't want to leave our granny. We don't want to go. We don't want to leave our granny. we don't want to leave our granny, we don't want to go, we don't want to leave our granny.

Not knowing that that would be the last thing that I'd remember of Isaac. Sorry. Sorry. Isaac was killed in an airstrike. He was 10 years old. Sometimes, you know, I think the only thing that stops me from screaming and, you know, beating my chest or whatever,

it's that I didn't see it. I haven't seen it. So I could somehow, you know, kind of think it's not real. But I know it's real because she told me it's real. So what about now, Charlene, with the kids? What do you think about now with them just staying there? Well, the thing about it is that, you know, like if we have children here, our children here,

you know, you send them to school, you provide the best for them so that they will have a good life. You're preparing them to live life. Those kids there, how it is right there now, it's like we're preparing them to die. Because there's no future there and we're not going to bring them out of there. So if they stay there, what can we see? What will be the outcome? That they will live there and they will die there. The British government say they deal with repatriations on a case-by-case basis. So far, the UK has repatriated one woman and about a dozen unaccompanied children. These were mainly orphans.

The government won't comment on Nicole's case. But as of now, we understand there are no plans to repatriate her and her children sometimes in the dark moments when i'm by myself sometimes i say well i have to resolve it that there could be a day when it will come when it says that indeed they have died. Have you ever wondered who you really are? It clicked in my mind suddenly. I was like, why have I never done this? I'm Jenny Kleeman, a writer and journalist. In my new series, The Gift, from BBC Radio 4,

I've been uncovering extraordinary truths that emerge when people take at-home DNA tests. He said, what do you know? You don't even know that your father's black. So I'm like, Jeff, we got him. And he's like, what are you talking about? And I go, we got him. Obviously, it was completely unintended consequence of a gift. Join me as I investigate what happens when genealogy, technology and identity collide. Listen to The Gift wherever you get your podcasts. You can also listen ad-free by subscribing to the CBC True Crime channel on Apple Podcasts. Uncover the best in true crime. It's been a year since I left for Syria, since I boarded that plane with an envelope of Salman's photos. 25 years earlier, I was on a plane to Canada, clutching a similar envelope.

It held my dad's dental records. He was a pilot, and I was told that he had died in a plane crash in the Canadian Rockies. My mum and brother, they accepted it. But I couldn't. Not until I had proof. Not until I saw him. A helicopter took me to the crash site up in the mountains. And there, I saw his scattered belongings.

The jacket I got him, his maps and logbook. That's when I knew it was true. That's when I accepted what my family already had. When Ash asked me to search for Salman, I knew it was near impossible to find him. But I understood why Ash couldn't move on, even after others did. Why he needed to be sure.

There is a tragedy in knowing. But not knowing, that destroys you. What I've come back with is not certainty. But I hope it's something. Ash and I meet at the same park where we met before, where he spent summer days playing tennis and eating ice cream with his son, Haroon. I suspect Ash knows what I'm going to tell him. He stalls, leaving first for cigarettes, then a cup of coffee.

But finally, we end up on a park bench opposite each other. Okay. Ash, last time I met you, it was winter 2022, and I was just about to leave for Syria. And I was going to try and find out about Salman. I'm going to walk you through all the steps that I've taken, and feel free to stop me at any point if you... I tell Ash the whole story, that I made it to both camps, that I spoke to people, I checked the orphanages. I walk him through what I learned from Aisha's family,

from DA and the other women in the camp. I managed to narrow it down from where they last saw Aisha. And it was in a village just near Bagus, a place called Marajda. These women said to me that they'd heard that that house had been bombed and there were no survivors. So I said to them, what about the children? What about Salman? Because surely a baby might have survived, a toddler may have survived. Now they said to me that if he had

survived, somebody would have seen him. Ash stares straight ahead. He's silent and completely still. Now, I wanted to look into this more because I wanted to see for myself where this place was that Aisha and Salman were believed to be living. So the first building was just rubble. There were no survivors. There could have been no survivors.

I went to the second building and the destruction was even worse. There was a giant crater in the ground and it was clear there were no survivors. I have photos of the place. Would you be interested in seeing them? Yeah. Would they help you in any way? Yeah, if you've got photos.

I'd be glad to. OK. Yeah. This is the site of one of the airstrikes? No. OK. So you can see the crater. The crater's massive, isn't it?

Yeah. I think you can see the scale that really nobody could have survived. Yeah, definitely. Really nobody could have survived. Yeah, definitely. This is the location of the other building, so you can see the rubble. Yeah.

Yeah. So that is what I found in Syria. So everything points to that place in Marajda being where Aisha was living with Salman and her daughter when that building was hit. So he's no longer here. He's not... He's not with us. He's in a better place anyway, so...

Hell is what it is. Ash, is there anything you want to ask me? Thank you very much for your efforts. He's in a better place. If he's not here, he's with the good Lord. That's the best place you can be. Do you think you'll be able to find peace? Yeah, that's it. Thank you very much.

I can only thank you for what you've done. No, please don't thank me. That's it. I know it's not the news that you were hoping for. It's not in our control, is it? Nothing was ever in our control. Before I used to cry, now I can't even cry. I've cried so much. I just can't cry anymore.

That is what it is. You accept it and you move forward. And like I said, I've got my granddaughter. She gives me so much pleasure, my wife gives me pleasure and so does my daughter. When somebody's with you almighty, you feel the sadness they're not with you and you never had the opportunity to be with them but the times that we shared on the messaging was... It was a pleasure, isn't it? We just fell in love with him.

Your heart melts like butter. He took our hearts and he's gone, but we still love him the same. I'm sorry. You've been listening to Bloodlines from BBC Sounds and CBC Podcasts. The series concept and reporting by me, Poonam Taneja. It's written and produced by Alina Ghosh, Fiona Woods and me. Our investigations producer is Jawan Abdi and our contributing producer is Michelle Shepard. Fahad Fattah is our field producer.

Our sound designer is Julia Whitman. Original score by Phil Channel. Special thanks to Evan Kelly for his mixing support. Emily Connell is a digital coordinating producer for CBC Podcasts. And Caroline McAvoy is a digital producer for BBC Sounds. Our senior producer and story editor is Damon Fairless for CBC Podcasts. Executive editor for BBC Sounds is James Cook.

The executive producers of CBC Podcasts are Cecil Fernandes and Chris Oak. Our podcast art was designed by Chloe Cushman. Amanda Cox is our cross-promotions producer. Our video producer is Evan Agard. And special thanks to John, our team medic, and the BBC High Risk team. Tanya Springer is the senior manager of CBC Podcasts.

And Arif Noorani is the Director. Claire McGinn is the Executive Director of BBC's Creative Development Unit. BBC Commissioner is Ahmed Hussain, Head of the BBC Asia Network. Thank you for listening to Bloodlines.