Uncover - S32 E6: Sheena | Sea of Lies
Episode Date: February 24, 2025With Albert awaiting trial, all eyes are on Sheena. The case against her father is far from a foregone conclusion and she’s the only one who knows the truth. But where do her loyalties lie?...
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This is a CBC Podcast. I've been thinking about what it means to be 15 years old.
When you're 15, you don't have the responsibility yet of a driver's license and you don't need
to have clear answers about who you want to be.
You're still more kid than adult, but you can feel that starting to change.
You can sense that you're at the beginning
of having real agency, where you're like,
what am I good at?
Where do I wanna go?
What do I want all of this to look like?
To be 15 is to still be a child,
but a child first grasping
the raw undiluted potential of life. It's the age Sheena Walker was in 1990,
when she first disappeared from her mother, her siblings, her friends. Her mother got the
call that they'd found her six years later. When the Devon Police figured out Sheena's
true identity, immediately they set about how best to
reunite mother and daughter, taking into consideration of course that the daughter in this case now had
two young daughters of her own. The officer tasked with setting up this sensitive reunion was Brian
Slade, a member of the original team that conducted the search of Little London Farmhouse. I joined the police in 1987 and in 1996 I was an aide on a CID office at Torbay.
Slade had been assigned to be the point of contact between Sheena and the police ever
since they still thought Sheena was Noel.
She maintained that she was the wife of David Davis.
During the month between the Halloween arrest and the police figuring out that the Davises
were in fact the Walkers, Sheena was laying low at Little London Farmhouse with her children
and almost nothing else.
The police had seized everything and Sheena didn't have a penny to her name, to any of her
names. So she was being looked after by social services and officer slayed. But then the facts
from Interpol, the police learning her true identity, and all of a sudden, her mother who
she'd spurned six years earlier, was on a plane to reunite with her.
Barb Walker was the only person who never stopped looking for Sheena. When Sheena first
disappeared, of course, there was outrage, media coverage, police investigations. But
as the months folded into years, the crowd thinned out. Until it was just Barb, trying to get Sheena's story on TV in any way she could.
America's Most Wanted passed on her pitch.
Unsolved Mysteries didn't call her back.
So she settled for an episode of the shortly lived program called Missing Treasures.
I'm Al Waxman and this is Missing Treasures, a search for our lost children. Children change
people's lives. They allow us to see the world anew. Their loss can be devastating.
For Barb, Sheena's birthdays came and went on the calendar, marking not her arrival in this world,
but her absence from it. After a few years, a Canadian police
officer suggested to Barb that she should just move on and forget about her because
she wouldn't be the same kid anyway. But then the call finally came and she got on a plane to meet
her now 21-year-old daughter. Detective Bill McDonald sent Slade to meet her.
Bill instructed me to go to Heathrow Airport and collect Barbara. And we went through the
process of bringing Barbara and Sheena together. She was a nice lady. She's really pleased
to meet us. Clearly Barbara was really keen on meeting Sheena. Sheena obviously didn't
know the game was up at that time and we didn't know
what reaction we would get. Hence, we use social services because obviously the children
have got to be a big priority and we need to make sure that we dealt with that situation
as delicately as possible.
They set up the meeting in a social services building, in a room with a children's play area.
They brought Barb through the door and there was Sheena, the daughter she never gave up on,
in the flesh, a mother herself now.
The moment that Barb thought might never happen was here.
And that in itself was a, I know, a very emotional and hugely significant moment for Barbara
Walker, Sheena's mother.
As mother and daughter embraced, everything around them was an unconscionable mess.
But this moment was not.
There's a flurry of loose ends to be tied up before Sheena was allowed to fly back to
Canada with her mother and children.
She needed to give statements to both the British and Canadian authorities, get her
bail cancelled, and to alert the Canadians about the avalanche of paperwork heading their
way to process not just Sheena, but her two children.
And the biggest meatball of all was that not tomorrow or next month, but at
some time in the future, the Devon police would need her to testify in court against
her father. But there was a caveat.
Once she returned to Canada, we've got no hold over her. We can't force her to give
evidence. She's a Canadian citizen in Canada. We can't compel her
to come back to the UK to give evidence in a murder trial and evidence against her father.
Chris If Sheena was going to testify in the
eventual murder trial, it would need to be her choice and her choice alone to do so. By putting
her on the plane to her home nation, her actual home nation,
the Devon Police knew that she was under no obligation to ever come back.
Up to that point, she'd been aloof and uncooperative at every step. And now they had
every indication that even though the jig was up, she was not about to turn on her father.
jig was up, she was not about to turn on her father. My impression was that she still looked up to her father and still loved him.
No one knew where her head was at.
No one knew what her father had indoctrinated her with.
No one knew what she thought or felt or was still trying to hide. And she certainly didn't seem in a hurry to talk to anyone about any of it.
I'm Sam Mullins and this is Sea of Lies from CBC's Uncover.
Episode 6.
Sheena. As soon as we started to uncover what was happening on the ground here in July, the
picture really started to really crystallize in our minds.
Bill McDonald took us around the Dart region, the area in Devon along the River Dart, to
retrace the steps of Walker and Platts, July 1996.
You're the first people I've worked with that have taken the trouble to come down and
actually come and see it properly.
Because I think you have to see it to really understand it and see how it all fits together.
When the inquiry began, guided by the calls and the cell tower pings of Walker's cell
phone, the Devon Police began a rigorous door knocking campaign all up and down the dart
to see if anyone remembered seeing Ron Platt or Albert Walker that July. Or, better yet,
if they'd seen them together. The details of Ron Platt and Albert
Walker's movements in the final month of Platt's life are complicated, but to those building the
murder case, essential to understand. The verified timeline of the final month of Ron Platt's life goes like this.
In June 1996, Albert and Sheena Walker are living in Woodham Walter, Essex, and Ron Platt
is living nearby in Chelmsford.
Sometime that June, Albert tells Sheena that Ron has moved to France, and Ron Platt's
actions that month seemed to support that he did indeed
plan to move. Ron gives his notice at the Chelmsford Place. On June 21st, Albert helps
him move out. They put all of his stuff into a storage unit. And then Albert checks Ron
into a nearby hotel where he'll remain for a couple of weeks.
Then in the first week of July, Albert picks up Ron and they drive four and a half
hours west to Taughtness on the River Dart in Devon, where they check into a place called
the Steam Packet Inn. Two days later, Albert walks into a nearby
yachting shop where he purchased seven items. A jacket, varnish, grease, a length of rope, a roll of green duct tape, a roll of black duct
tape, and an anchor.
What was Ron thinking during this time?
That he and his good friend Albert were simply having a mini vacation?
A sort of send-off before he moved to France?
We don't know for sure.
But the police found two women who remember chatting with Albert and Ron in the pub at
the steam packet the night of July 8th.
The talkative one of the two men told them that they were both divorcés and that they
had a plan to sail to France to start a new life.
Which brings us to July 9th, 11 days before Ron Platt died.
July 9th remains a big question mark, a day that fascinates those familiar with the case
to this day.
That morning, Albert and Ron checked out of the steam packet inn after breakfast, got
on the Lady Jane, Albert's 24 foot sailboat, and headed out to sea. No one sees them until late that night. At around
11pm, Albert calls a hotel in Totness, one called the Royal Seven Stars, and says, we're
on a boat waiting for the tide to come in. Do you have two rooms?" They did. So, a very tired looking Ron and Albert arrive at the Royal Seven Stars Hotel
shortly after that. And Albert says to the concierge, memorably,
My God, we were stuck out at sea and then on the drive here I just ran over a cat.
Why did they check out of the steam packet in that morning if they knew they were coming back?
What were they doing for all of those hours on the Lady Jane that day?
Bill MacDonald still wonders.
Could that have been an abortive attempt on that particular visit?
Was it a dress rehearsal for what was to come?
Was he just putting the final preparations
to his final plan?
We don't know.
The only person really that could tell us that
would be the two people involved.
All we know is that the next morning,
Ron Platt checked back into the steam packet in
for 10 more nights, which is significant
because he only had 10 nights left in his life.
So with Ron checked in, Albert Walker drives 4 and a half hours to Woodham Walter.
Then, on July 12th, Albert Walker loads Sheena and the kids into the car for a pre-planned,
pre-booked holiday halfway up the dart in Didisham.
Albert, Sheena, and the kids had reserved a cute little cottage called
Potter's Loft. They were booked at the cottage for a full week, July 12th to 19th. But the week was
dreadful. The weather was bad and both the children caught a nasty cold. So feeling robbed of their
holiday or perhaps for some other much darker reason, Albert
called the Booker.
They wanted to extend the stay.
Father was insistent they extended the stay.
That property, Pottersloft, they weren't able to secure that.
There was obviously other people coming in.
Albert was told that another similar place just around the corner was available, a cottage
called the Old Brew
House.
So, with 48 hours left in Ron Platt's life, they moved a few houses down the hill.
They had to vacate, so Sheena had to move everything, all their clothing and the kids
and everything they brought with them down the hill into the old brew house. If the river Dart is a snake, we have Ron in the steam packet inn at the very tip of
the tail in the north. And we have Albert in Didisham, the fat middle of the serpent
with the Lady Jane moored just across the river. But then suddenly on July 18th, Albert
tells Ron to leave the steam packet in and move
to an accommodation downriver of him in Dartmouth, where the mouth of the snake spits the dart
into the channel.
As we're stood here now, it's an idyllic setting.
It's a beautiful stretch of river.
And it's difficult to conceive that this is a backdrop to what eventually would be the
day of the murder.
Which brings us to July 20th, 1996. Albert Walker wakes up that morning and tells Sheena that he's heading out for a solo sail for the day on the Lady Jane. So the sequence would have
been able to come out of this accommodation as we're stood here now, walk down the pontoon.
To get to the Lady Jane's mooring just across the river, he needed a ride,
not just from anyone, but from a man named Captain Kirk.
Alistair Kirk would have come over, picked him up, and they would have taken him
the short distance upriver to the river mooring.
Pete On the short ride across the river, Albert would have had a perfect view of the Greenway estate.
As you look up through the trees, you'll see a large white house set back on the hillside.
The house is famous because Agatha Christie, the most famous mystery writer in history,
lived there for the last 40 years of her life.
Coincidence? Maybe not.
Anyway.
The yacht, the Lady Jane, would have been moored mid-river. He would have got on board.
Kirk would have come back to his pontoon. And then Walker would have sailed the Lady
Jane boat up the river, probably about half an hour to the port of Dartmouth.
Before he was picked up by Walker, Platt had breakfast at the place he was staying and
checked out.
That holiday accommodation was called the Anchorage.
And it's only hours later, having left that, that he's murdered at sea with an anchor.
As Ron Platt walked away from the Anchorage that morning, it was the last time he was
ever seen alive. Back in the rented cottage,
Sheena spent the day doing something I'm very familiar with. She was just trying to have a
smooth time with her two young children. When the kids fell asleep that night,
as she waited for her father to return, Sheena did something that would prove to be very important in the case against
Albert Walker.
She turned on the TV.
When Sheena first told police that she watched television the night Albert was gone, right
away they asked, oh yeah, what was on?
Do you remember the TV program was on?
What happened?
You watched Coronation Street?
What happened in that episode?
To try to get an accurate timeline of what they're saying.
And Sheena remembered exactly what she was watching that night.
Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to the opening ceremony of the Games of the 26th Olympiad, the Centennial Olympic Games.
She couldn't recall the date specifically, but remembered that during the day as
she was sat with the kids just waiting for her dad to return, she watched the
opening ceremony of the Atlanta Olympics.
The ceremony was in Atlanta, but since the UK is five hours ahead, it erred on tape delay
in the UK the following night.
And that for us, to be able to tie that down, that was huge.
Albert Walker eventually came back that night around 10pm lookingm. looking windswept and disheveled
and went straight to bed.
The next morning, Captain Kirk took Albert, Sheena, and the kids to the Lady Jane to quote
tidy up.
Two days later, they went back to Woodham Walter and five days after that, the fisherman John Kopek discovered Ron's body in his fishing net, six miles
away from the shore.
So as the timeline came into focus, it was clear.
By placing Ron and Albert and Sheena all on the river dart on those key dates, the inquiry
had unearthed a clear story of circumstance.
But the fact remained.
If you're gonna tell a story of circumstance
in a jury trial, you need something more.
They needed Sheena, and they needed her to testify.
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A passion in our bellies.
It's in the hearts of our neighbors.
The eyes of our nurses. in the hearts of our neighbors. The eyes of our nurses.
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But it's time to imagine what we can do with more.
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What does a mummified Egyptian child, the Parthenon marbles of Greece and an Irish giant
all have in common?
They are all stuff the British stole.
Maybe.
Join me, Mark Fennell, as I travel around the globe, uncovering the shocking stories of how some, let's call them ill-gotten, artifacts made it to faraway institutions.
Spoiler, it was probably the British.
Don't miss a brand new season of Stuff the British Stole. Watch it free on CBC Gem.
The police knew that they had some time. A trial date for something like this was at least a year out.
They needed to use that time
to earn Sheena's trust and build a relationship with her. And how were they going to do that?
They didn't know. That was Officer Brian Slade's problem to figure out.
I was asked to keep contact with her. When Slade put Sheena on the plane back to Canada,
he vowed to keep in touch with her over the phone in the coming weeks and months.
To check in.
To not be a stranger.
But as he watched her go, he certainly didn't like his chances.
The first time I met Sheena, she was extremely cold to me.
I'm the enemy.
I'm the police.
While everyone who had met her in the UK described her as quiet, deferential, soft-spoken,
this didn't jive with the version of her that Slade met.
She certainly was not a meek and mild lady. And she didn't mind being cutting, certainly.
Actually, I wouldn't call her shy at all, but she's an intelligent lady who knew her own mind.
Every time Slade made contact in the early going, he was met with silence.
She didn't want to engage with me at all.
Not even one word answers.
But she was extremely distrustful of the police and she didn't know what was going to happen
with her.
But he persisted.
So I just tried to keep contacting her.
I think it was something like a monthly basis,
just to touch base with her, which may have gone into weeks, but mainly just try to keep
that contact and to see whether or not she would or would not return to the UK.
Even though she was trying to build a new life back in Canada, her feelings towards
Slade and the police in general remained unchanged.
It was still quite a testy relationship as such.
But even though it was awkward at times, Slade kept calling.
We would discuss different things at her children, quite similar age to my children.
So that was quite a good
subject to have. Is that two-year-old talking yet? Mine won't stop. You have many conversations with
someone you do build up a level of trust. And I didn't want Sheena to do anything that she didn't
want to do. Obviously, all I wanted from her was the truth. Over the course of weeks, Slade got to know the unknowable Sheena Walker.
It definitely did take a while and it certainly wasn't immediate.
And with trust came understanding.
I think that she'd been clearly groomed by her father to believe that it's the right
thing to do to run away and live a life of Riley as such with someone else's money,
to live a second life really, to live a life of a lie.
The way she talked about her father was not in a way that suggested she felt victimized by him.
It was only when she talked about her current situation,
reacclimating to life inside her mother's house, that she sounded
displeased with one of her parents. She was very pro her father and very anti her mother.
Her father had indoctrinated her mind in order to push her further away from her mother, which
clearly worked. Groomed, I think is a term that we use now really.
It's a term where someone can manipulate someone
to think that they are who they're not
and to do things that maybe aren't in their best interest.
And this is the moment,
a couple of months after her return to Canada,
when Sheena receives a call from the UK, not
from Slade, but from her father in prison.
His calling card only gave him a couple of minutes, but he successfully got the message
to Sheena that he needed to.
He said, I need you to amend your statement. I need you to say that you did know that Ron was in Devon,
that while we were there,
you knew that he was staying nearby.
And then they were cut off.
This was the test, the gut check.
When he needed her the most,
would she do her father's bidding?
Rating phone calls carried on.
And during one of these, I remember she told me that her father contacted her from prison,
phoned her and asked her to change her testimony.
Before she'd left the UK, she gave an on-the-record statement about what exactly she and Albert
were doing that July. And one of the things in the statement was that
she didn't know that Ronald Platt was in Devon
at the time that he was.
Because it turned out that in addition to telling the police
that Ron had left for France that June,
this was the story he told his daughter as well.
And now, Walker is phoning her from prison and asking her to change that part of her statement
and to ask her to lie to say actually she did know that Ronald Platt was in the area.
I think it's quite a damning thing really why would he lie about Ronald Platt to his own daughter,
not an accomplice to murder but the accomplice to the double life there, they're leading. Why would he not share that fact with her? Because he was going to murder him.
And I realized it was very significant straight away.
Slade rushed down the hallway to tell his chief, Phil Syncock.
And his first words were, well, we need a statement from her then, don't we?
well, we need a statement from them, don't we?
It would have been unheard of for an aide to travel,
international traveler to take statements as such, but Bill
Sincock put his trust in me and I arranged to travel to Canada.
After so many conversations, things between Slade and Sheena felt much different than the last time they were in the same room, in a good way.
The relationship was getting better at that stage.
But even though Sheena knew that Slade was coming to collect this specific statement
in which she would merely be restating what she told him over the phone, seeing it on
paper seemed to give
her pause.
Dr. John H. C. Hickman, Ph.D. She clearly knew that this new statement provided some
quite damning evidence against her father. Again, I'm not persuading her in any way,
but just talking around the issues really, and she was reluctant to put her signature
to that piece of paper.
So they sat in it. And just like he had every step thus far, Slade gave her space and made
it clear that he wasn't here to convince her to do anything she didn't want to do.
He explained that all this is really about is the truth. A statement of the truth. Yeah, it took a while of discussion, but eventually she decided.
She signed her name.
I took a statement which took a number of hours. The statement was quite lengthy and yeah,
it was okay.
The fact that Sheena was comfortable sharing this with Slade was very meaningful.
Not just because she would have known that this would hurt her father, who she obviously still
cared about, but just by virtue of the act of him calling her to change her testimony,
that alone would be one of the most damning facts that the prosecution could put to a jury.
Charles Barton would be the one leading
the prosecution. And as the trial date was imminent, he made crystal clear what they'd
need to have their best shot at winning. He took young officer Slade aside.
And he said he wanted Sheena and tried to get an assurance from me that Sheena would come back
and give that evidence. And I wasn't able to give him that assurance because I didn't know myself.
Her demeanor had definitely changed towards her father the way she thought of her father had definitely changed.
Being taken from her home environment, not against her will, but she'd been groomed in order to believe that was the right thing to do.
It's a very terrible thing. So yes, I think at that point she felt she
was a victim. And it was clear that the power that he did have over her had gone.
But just because her framing of everything had evolved didn't mean that she was ready
to face her father in court with the entire world watching.
But it did put a bit of pressure on me in order to actually get a yes or no answer from
her as to whether or not she would. I didn't want to put her under any pressure because I knew I was
asking such a big thing for her to come across and give evidence. The relationship had been built,
the trust had been established, but now it was finally time for a definitive answer.
Will you testify against your dad?
She was asking for certain reassurances. Certainly one of the reassurances was that
she didn't want any photographs taken of her by the press.
The case was making headlines in Canada, and there had been a seemingly permanent gaggle
of photographers camped out at her mom's house.
So we gave her assurance that we would do our utmost to try to make sure that didn't
happen.
Sheena, are you going to do this?
She agreed.
And then we went through the process of how we're going to make that happen.
Bill MacDonald put a plan in place.
We took a decision to get her into the UK safely. We wouldn't put her on a commercial airline and
we approached the RAF and they very kindly agreed to fly Sheena on a Nimrod with a whole
complement of RAF personnel who had no idea who she was into Britain.
That was a very, very unusual step. It was the right thing to do.
I went across to collect her, flew into Toronto.
Paparazzi were actually at every airport near to Sheena's location in Canada,
waiting for her to be spotted or seen for the scoop that she was leaving.
Slade collected her without being detected.
Then we flew four hours to Edmonton,
to the other side of Canada.
They needed to go to Edmonton because that's where
the military aircraft would be taking off from.
We had a couple of days in Edmonton.
Sheen at this stage was, I've got to say, quite stressed.
And I had to try to keep her stress levels down.
I had to keep her entertained for a couple of days and trying to think about what to
do in Edmonton.
So I'm in Canada and the only place that's not interesting, well I shouldn't say this,
probably Edmonton people listening, but I asked what is there to do there.
Canadians, if someone from abroad approaches you and is like, I'm in
Edmonton for two days, what is there to do there? We all say in unison on the
count of three, one, two. And apparently they've got a really large mall, shopping mall.
West Ed, one of the biggest malls in the world.
Our selection will greet you there.
West Edmonton Mall.
A sharper dream and a world of excitement.
West Edmonton Mall.
So we had a bit of fun there.
And I thought we were getting on quite well.
On the eve of the flight, with the start of the trial a mere 48 hours away, everything
was going according to plan.
But each hour brought more visible anxiety to Sheena's face.
What she yearned for was privacy, solitude, a peaceful place to just be with her children. And where she was
going was the exact opposite.
Clearly, it was getting a lot for her.
That evening, Slade went to go check on her to make sure that she was okay. But when he
knocked on her door, there was no answer.
She went missing as such. She left the hotel.
Trying to stay calm, Slade went into the lobby and out on the street, but there was no sign
of her.
God damn it. He had one job, and their flight was only hours away.
I didn't know where she was or if she was going to come back.
After Slade had a brief heart attack, Sheena finally reappeared.
She just needed some space.
And after a poor night of sleep, it was time.
And I remember driving out to the airport and Sheena had been in the back of the car
in tears because she was so stressed about what was happening.
She was delicate, she was vulnerable, she was nervous, she was anxious.
She wanted to come over and do the right thing.
You know, it's a massive thing for her to go through,
so I kind of understood that and I must admit I was relieved
when she got on the plane itself.
Sheena, in a warplane, heading to a hostile territory to be brave.
I was so unprepared for the tidal wave of global interest that the inquiry would then
take.
It was massive.
Detectives Klenaghan and McDonald
had never seen anything like it.
It was exciting.
It was a big, it was a huge case.
In Canada, unbeknown to us,
it was incredibly high profile
and that kind of transferred over here.
That was the first trial I've been involved with
where you've got those big TV vans with
the satellite dishes on top.
Mobile trucks from CNN, Sky News, Fox News.
It was on the front page of all the papers.
And everyone, it seemed that the whole news population had descended on Exeter Crown Court,
which back then was obviously in the old castle.
The Exeter Crown Court was on the grounds of the thousand-year-old Rougemont Castle,
one of the oldest castles in England. Shakespeare mentions it in Richard III, and there's a
plaque on the wall that says,
"...the last people in England to be executed for witchcraft were tried here and hanged."
It was on this historic red cobblestone upon
which the key players in the case made their entrances in tinted vehicles. The judge, the
prosecutor, the defense lawyer, all men worthy of this stage, all considered among the best
barristers in England. Albert Walker was brought handcuffed out of the van and out of view of most of the telephoto
lenses.
Of course, no longer able to get his bi-weekly color treatments, he showed up wearing a beard
of solid white.
Klenahan arrived with his captain Phil Syncock as Sheena was whisked into the courthouse
undetected.
To the prospective jurors, the Crown attorney advised that they would
be calling a total 36 witnesses and that the trial would last about four weeks. They quickly
selected a jury comprised of eight women and four men. And with that, the judge nodded
to begin.
Crown Prosecutor Charles Barton was a man of substantial size and volume.
He was well known to never need the aid of his notes.
And when he spoke in court, he never made eye contact with anyone but the jury.
The first five words of Barton's opening statement were,
This case depends upon detail.
His opening remarks gave the jury a quick skim of all
the evidence that he would be presenting and promised that while almost all of it would
be circumstantial in nature, that when held all at once, the truth of what happened to
Ron Platt would be undeniable. And with that, it was time to call the first witness. In English law, the prosecution bat first.
So our witnesses are heard first.
Who Barton would call to the witness stand first was of huge significance strategically
and was a call that he'd been ruminating on for months.
And so, with all eyes fixed on him, Barton said the words that one reporter in the courtroom
described as having the effect of gunfire in a church.
He said, My Lord, the first witness I'm going to call is Sheena Walker.
Coming up on Sea of Lies.
Albert Walker's eyes were fixed on his daughter throughout her testimony.
I actually went in there feeling quite powerful.
I actually think, I'm going to beat you. I'm went in there feeling quite powerful. I actually think, I'm gonna beat you.
I'm gonna beat you, mate.
He's giving the performance of his life
and he's certainly a smooth talking, charming man.
If he is guilty, this is a man throwing a gigantic dice.
This is a huge gamble.
Sea of Lies is produced by What's the Story Sounds for CBC.
It's hosted and written by me, Sam Mullins, and produced and reported by Alex Gatenby.
Mixing and sound design is by Ivan Eastley.
From What's the Story Sounds, our executive producers are David Waters and Darrell Brown.
At CBC podcasts, the senior producers are Andrew Friesen and Damon Fairless.
Eunice Kim is our story editor. Emily Cannell is our digital coordinating producer. Executive
producers are Cecil Fernandez and Chris Oak. Senior manager is Tonya Springer. And the
director of CBC podcasts is Arif Nuran.
For more CBC podcasts go to cbc.ca slash podcasts.