Uncover - S4 "The Cat Lady Case" E6: Joan

Episode Date: July 10, 2019

The Cat Lady Case, Episode 6 - An insider finally speaks, and new details emerge about Joan.

The music teacher says it was consensual sex. His former students say it was rape. He had sex with me once in the classroom, in a closet. Something happened to me too. I thought he was our little predator. Why wasn't he stopped? These women seek answers and justice. I'm Julie Ireton, host of The Banned Teacher.

It's available now on CBC Listen or wherever you get your podcasts. Just that somebody could be this diabolical. This is a CBC Podcast. So I'm just having a hard time trying to decide whether or not I want to talk to you because there is an integrity issue here. You basically committed perjury by producing a court affidavit and lying. So I don't know that I could trust you to talk and provide you details of the investigation.

That's quite an accusation, Rob. Well, that's what you said. Detective Rob Matthews has finally responded. Months after I initially reached out to him. The lawyers were going through the application to unseal the warrants. You produced an affidavit saying that you had spoken to OPP officers and the case was closed.

When in fact you knew the case wasn't closed. Rob is upset because sources told me his investigation had hit a dead end. I spoke to OPP sources who did tell me that. I wouldn't have said it in the affidavit if it wasn't true. You spoke to retired officers that would know nothing about an investigation? I spoke to people in the OPP. I'm not going to get much more specific than that. Yeah, well, but you had also spoken to the case manager, who is a senior officer in the organization, who told you point blank that the investigation is open. But you were telling me one thing and other people were telling me something else.

Mm-hmm. But you were telling me one thing and other people were telling me something else. Mm-hmm. So I don't know how that makes me a liar, Rob. That's quite a statement to make to a journalist. Well, you spoke to the case manager. No one else would know. Rob seems to think that just because he told me something, I should accept it as fact. Well, as a journalist, I like to try to get multiple sources for things.

And the information that I had was that there were no active leads on the case. So that's what I put in the affidavit. So I don't know why that would make you allege that I'm a liar and that I make things up. I tell Rob he should do an interview with me. That way, people can hear his version of events. He seems to consider the idea. I know you can hear the reservation in my mind. There's so much about this investigation, what I would love to tell,

because it's a great story. It's what happened to these elderly people. It's terrible, and they deserve justice. But my first and foremost concern is to solve the case and serve the families of those people in the highest regard. I'm still hopeful that we're going to solve this case, and I'm worried that if I say too much, we could lose evidence. I understand Rob's position, but still want him to talk. I would be curious to hear how you first got involved in the case

and what stands out to you and what your hopes are in terms of resolution. I think a lot of people who are already familiar with the story would very much like to hear that. So if there's any way that we can get you involved. Finally, Rob agrees to a face-to-face interview. So 1 p.m. maybe? 1 p.m.? It doesn't exactly sound ironclad, but I'll take it.

Okay, and I apologize for starting off on the right foot, but that's, you know... We got through it. I feel like we're off to a better start now. Okay. Okay, I'll talk to you soon. Thanks, Rob. I'm Xander Sherman. This is Uncover, the Cat Lady Case. As I'm waiting for the date of my interview with Rob, and to set up our second search,

I reach out to a lawyer who's represented the lands in the past. So I'm going to try 1905. I've reached out before without success, but I want to see if, this time, someone in the family will talk. Hello? Hi, is that Jeffrey Manishan? Yes, it is. Hey, it's Xander Sherman calling from CBC Podcasts. Hi.

I'm looking for a comment for a podcast that I'm working on to do with the disappearance of four seniors from Muskoka. I have no comment. You have no comment, okay. Right, thank you. You don't even want to take my information down? I've told you what I have to say, thank you. After the phone call, I send a follow-up letter.

Maybe hearing the details I plan on reporting will change his mind. We are planning to report that the Ontario Provincial Police suspected David Lan and Ron Allen of first-degree murder in the case of Joan Lawrence. We plan to say that Detective Aaron Burke's newly unsealed investigation explicitly names David Lan, Walter Land, Paul Land, Catherine Land, and Ron Allen in connection to various allegations of neglect, mistreatment, theft, and fraud. No murder charges have ever been laid, but I outline a number of allegations. Police documents say that Walter was the last person to see all three missing men alive.

Shielded Joan from authorities after she was found. Of course, we also reach out to the lands directly. The response? Silence. But my producer, Graham MacDonald, was able to obtain this audio of Paul and his wife, Letitia, performing at a recent church event. Toward the end of the show, Letitia preached to the audience. The topic of her sermon was mistakes. When we make mistakes with something, it's like an oyster. What do you do with that irritable little sand that is bothering you?

Make a pearl from it. And so if you make a mistake in life or something, make it the best mistake that you ever made. Ornament it, make it nice and improve it and improvise and learn from it. And don't be discouraged. Learn from it. Life is an experience. Never give up. Never give up. Leticia seems to be talking about music, but also making a parallel between music and life. Hang in there. Even if you make mistakes, try it anyway. I'm a piano teacher, violin teacher, okay?

I do have a BA and a master's degree, but that's nothing. What really counts is passion for music. Do you love music? Don't worry about the mistake or two. Make pearls and don't give up on life. For now, this is as close as I can get. Keep trying, trying, trying. You can do it.

I love you. God bless you. Thank you. Enjoy our snacks. And by the way, for those who came a little bit later, I'm so thankful you came today. That was my mother and John, 1929. I don't know if you want baby pictures or not.

This was John. I'm sitting down with two people who will talk, Barb Anderson and her husband, Don. Barb's brother, John Crofts, was one of the four people who vanished. A baby picture of John. The picture of him is that one as a teenager. I don't know where it is. With a bow tie on.

I don't know what happened to it. I do eventually see the bow tie picture. It shows a teenaged John with a crew cut, bushy eyebrows, and glint in his eye. If you saw it next to John's missing persons poster, more than 50 years later, you'd never know they were the same person. Listen, I do feel sorry for John. When I think back on him all his life, he never really had a good shot at it. He was a tall, he was a big, good-looking man. Despite the passage of time,

I sense that Barb and Don still feel strongly about the circumstances surrounding John's disappearance. How could people do something like that? I hope whatever happened, I mean, I hope he didn't die from neglect or hit over the head or something like that. I hope the hell they catch him and get them. There's another one. On the left there.

Yes. Right. And who else is in the photo here? Oh, it's mom and dad. Oh, you're mom and dad. During a visit to Howard and Rhonda Grant's home in St. Catharines, I look at photos of Ralph in his younger days. In one, he's sitting at a table with Howard's parents, dressed neatly in a suit and tie. Howard and I chat in the living room. There's a TV in the corner, which Rhonda is watching as she tidies up. But it's a shame. It really is that he wound up the way he did.

Because I don't think that was something for anyone to go through that, whatever it was. Howard says after all this time, he still wants closure. It would be nice to know that he's, buried somewhere or they can close him for closure.

It's a tough old wound. A tough old wound, Howard says. Like John Croft's family, Howard is hopeful the case might still be solved. But you never know. You never know. Somebody might overhear something that they shouldn't have. John Semple, the third missing man, had a son, James. I couldn't track him down for this story, but according to police, he hadn't seen his father since he was 15 and didn't have much to say.

Then there's Joan. So this one here so this is for Joan so she's four four years nine months female she's three feet six inches high I look at records with researcher Laura Beacom her complexion's fair her hair is light

her eyes are brown one record describes Joan as a child it's amazing to see that researcher Laura Beacom. Her complexion's fair, her hair is light, her eyes are brown. One record describes Joan as a child. It's amazing to see that. Yeah. Baby Joan. Baby Joan, yeah. Before she became the cat lady. Like so many others, Laura met Joan on the side of the road. Could you have imagined then that you'd be doing this now? No. Trying to find out who this person was that you gave a ride to one day 20 years ago? Well, I mean, if she hadn't gone missing, nobody, you know, nobody would have been looking. But it's such an intriguing story. Dorothy Joan Lawrence was born in Ottawa in 1921.

So her mother's name is Irene Claire McCarthy. She's born in 1894. Her father's name is William. William was born in Bradford, Ontario, June 3rd, 1887. Joan seems to have had a financially stable upbringing. I don't think they were hurting. I think they were, and he owned his own house in Ottawa. So they weren't poor. They were probably middle class, and especially around the Depression.

He always worked. He always had a job. Do you remember anything else about what Joan said? I asked Laura if she remembers anything Joan said about how she ended up here. She never spoke a lot, no. She said that, she did say that she wrote poems. At 19, Joan got her first poem published, In the Toronto Star. Later, she'd write for Chatelaine, a Canadian author and bookman. She eventually worked as a copywriter in Toronto.

And though she was secretive about her past, some people thought she'd been a typesetter or a journalist. But Joan kept coming back to poetry, writing things down she never told anyone. And I said, do you have any children? No answer. I show some of Joan's poems to people who used to give her rides, like Darlene Wilkinson. Okay. This one was published in 1940, and it was published in the Toronto Star. A little of everything.

The Builder. Tonight there is a clamor and a pounding at the door, and young hearts are hearing what the old have heard before, and thrilling as the bugle rings along a bleeding shore, some call it destiny and some call it war. I have not found a name to give the distant thunderings, but over where the bird of death swoops down with dripping wings to gorge alike his madness on peasant men and kings, God will fashion new worlds out of broken things. Joan Lawrence.

I'm impressed. That is lovely. I am impressed. I did not know that she was a poet. And Denise Kelly. There's just a couple more here. This is the following year, 1941, also the Toronto Star. The Little White Rose.

The window of the florist's shop was gay, with flowers in an orderly array, but all alone on one little white rose lay, forgotten in a dusty corner there. This poem is about a flower that meets a sudden end. The snow enshrouded it in misty lace. This poem is about a flower that meets a sudden end. Wow. Isn't that something? I really see how this woman ended up caring for those cats. I showed Denise another document. So Gamble Lawrence. On Friday, December 24th, 1943, at St. Mark's Church. Joan married an Army lieutenant named Burton Gamble. But as Laura Beekham and I discuss, the marriage ended in divorce.

And the divorce is not that many years after the marriage, right? No, no, they divorced in 49, so five years later. Five years after. Just like she left clues for police investigating her disappearance, telling people to call 911 if anything happened, Jones seemed to leave secrets encoded in her writing. Are you surprised by these? Yes. Yes, I am.

Jones' friend from the A&P, Linda Charbonneau. Yes. I mean, she was very well-spoken, well-versed when I talked to her, all the times I talked to her, but had no idea that she had this talent. It's obviously a talent. I always respected her, but it just makes me admire her because I think poetry comes from the heart usually and from experiences and stuff. So good job, Joan.

I'm glad I had the pleasure of getting to know that part of you that I didn't know when you were here. I asked Linda to read a poem that may hold the key to Joan's past. Smoke, tainted glass, for anti-glare, separated us. for anti-glare separated us yet the longing in your eyes penetrated unobscured as you, my son who could hardly pass the time of day these past few years with us, your catch-penny

parents, suddenly strained in those few brief remaining moments to Xerox our faces upon your heart as the train pulled away from the station. Oh boy. What I'm getting from this poem is she's obviously saying goodbye to a little boy. And the longing in your eyes, penetrated, unobscured as you, my son, could hardly pass a time of day. My son. My son. Yeah, it says my son. Wow. And it's called oba your cat catch penny parents which is a like i think a really old term that means like like poor like really poor parents suddenly strained so I don't know if that means like

strained like financially or just breaking up but in those brief few brief remaining moments to Xerox our faces upon your heart so I'm thinking that the train the little boy went

on the train and they were like, she was, wow. Researcher Laura Beacom. And I haven't found anything that says she may have had a son. But that's not to say there wasn't one. It's just not showing up. If there was one

and he was given up for adoption, would that make it harder to find him? It would be if they changed his name, yeah. Very difficult. Because we have Robert, presumably was his name, that's the name in the poem. Yeah. But if he was given up for adoption, it wouldn't be Robert Gamble.

No. It would be Robert Smith or Robert Jones. It could be anything, yeah. And that's if Joan even had a son. Still, I can't help but think she did. It's very detailed. It's very precise. It's like the memory was still very vivid for her. Yeah.

As the train pulled away from the station. Not long after our conversation, I get a message from Laura. She tells me that she's found something. Someone who has Joan on their family tree also has a branch for a son named Robert Gamble, born in 1944 and died in 1949. The person didn't have any documents. Still, I can't help but notice that the birth and death dates line up so closely with Joan and Burton's marriage. Robert would have been born a year after Joan and Burton got married, and potentially died the year they were divorced. But I can't really say anything conclusively, and we hit a dead end. What is clear is that after 1949, Joan lived in Toronto, then moved north to Barrie. Her writing focused on nature, as if she were looking for peace. This is the very last poem that I've been able to find that she published in 1972.

It's titled Bird Bath Runway. Linda Charbonneau is reading from the printouts I've brought. From the control tower of lounge chair, I watch them stacked on the fence and bush, awaiting patiently their turn for splashdown. awaiting patiently their turn for splashdown. They approach, touch down, refuel, and take off again, sluggish with water-logged undercarriage. When Joan arrived in Muskoka, it appears she came alone, and she lived by herself until she started taking in abandoned litters of kittens.

On another visit, Linda told me this story. She told me that a couple of her girlfriends came from Toronto for her birthday. And it was her birthday, and I guess they found out where she lived or knew where she lived, so they were knocking on her door because they brought her some gifts. And Joan told me she just could not answer the door and I said Joan like why not like you know your friends came all the way from Toronto they had gifts for you like what she goes Linda I was I was too ashamed I was just too ashamed to open the door and let them see me like this. And I said, oh, Joan. So she said they just kept banging and banging,

and she just, you know, just waited for them to go away. They finally gave up and left. In place of friends and family, community members eventually became Joan's surrogates, the people who cared about her and still want closure. Among them is Denise Kelly. She fed the cats and then what was left was for her. If Joan was murdered, Denise wants the killer or killers held responsible. She tells me this as we drive Joan's old hitchhiking route. Even though she wasn't a doctor or a dentist, she was still a part of our community.

She was important and she deserves that. She deserves justice for what happened to her. Linda Charbonneau also wants closure. I want to be able to go and pay respects, you know. You know, say goodbye to an old friend. Linda tells me she has a message for Joan, and that, despite everything, she hopes some good can come of this.

I just want to say that, Joan, you're a lovely lady, and I really enjoyed the time we had together. I hope this case is solved for the sake of knowing that this won't happen again. That people will reach out and help people that are in desperate, dire straits. And not just turn a blind eye. For people just to be more compassionate with our fellow man and for us to take care of each other.

In 2017, it felt like drugs were everywhere in the news. So I started a podcast called On Drugs. We covered a lot of ground over two seasons, but there are still so many more stories to tell. I'm Jeff Turner, and I'm back with season three of On Drugs. And this time it's going to get personal. I don't know

who Sober Jeff is. I don't even know if I like that guy. On Drugs is available now wherever you get your podcasts. It's a week before my interview with Detective Rob Matthews, and I see I've missed a couple of calls. To check unheard messages, press 1-1. The first message is from my producer, Graham MacDonald.

I have some interesting news. Graham tells me he's been talking to the owner of the former Almeguen Highlands Information Center, Lindy Vardy. Lindy's property is where we had positive results from the first search. I just called Lindy to try and

see if she'd be open to having us come back on the tent. Graham recorded the call. Hello, Lindy speaking. Hey Lindy, this is Graham from the call. Hello, Lindy speaking. Hey, Lindy, this is Graham from the CBC. How are you? I'm well, Graham. Yeah, they just want to make sure that if there is any evidence to be found, that it's protected in a way that can actually have meaning in a court of law, right?

Right, right. of law, right? Right, right. So I think they would like us to defer you from that. We'd been hoping to search the property again now that it's spring and the ground has thawed. But Lindy says the OPP has asked her not to move forward with allowing us to conduct a second search. But I bet if you could coordinate something with them and be, you know, I don't know if they even do that sort of thing. Like, but I feel badly for, yeah, being a sticker in the process. The OPP has effectively shut us down from searching. It's unclear if this means the OPP is planning its own searches, or if these

locations are now considered crime scenes. And it would seem I'm going to have to wait a little longer to find out. My next voicemail message is from Detective Matthews. I'm just calling to let you know that that date is not going to work. Basically, we have, there is a lot of interest in the story. So I think we are going to do something a little bigger. We're going to probably do a media conference sometime. Rob tells me that instead of doing the interview he agreed to, the OPP will now be holding a press conference.

But he's vague on the details. That's going to take us a while to organize, but there are some other vendors that are interested as well, so I don't want to play favorites. Anyway, again, my apologies, and I will talk to you soon. Bye. I find Rob's number in my address book and call him back. So, interesting development. Yes.

Tell me about this press conference. It was as a result of our discussion last week, or I guess it was the week before. I think it's just time now. Rob tells me that after our last conversation, he's had a change of heart. We have been very tight-lipped, as you know, about this investigation, and I am going to release a significant amount of information. I'm going to tell the story to whomever wants to listen. I ask Rob for more information,

but he says he's still figuring out how much he wants to reveal. So will there be details that you'll be releasing that aren't in the ITOs? Potentially. Rob says he hopes the information, whatever it is, sparks something that leads to the final piece of the puzzle. Yeah, I'm hoping that if I release more information, someone out there will come forward with that key piece of information that might enable us to solve this investigation.

Rob and I stay in touch over the next few weeks. For whatever reason, he's now more open to talking about the case than he was when I first reached out. I use the opportunity to start working through my list of follow-up questions. Something else that I wanted to ask you about is... I start by asking Rob if the OPP has been following my investigation. One of the sources that I've spoken to tells me that the OPP have been asking for emails that they and I have exchanged to do with a potential search location. Is that true?

The OPP have been asking for emails. You'll have to give me more information. I'm not... I ask Rob again. Yeah. Ruben told me that he had been contacted by an OPP detective. He said that the detective asked him for details regarding the CBC search and to turn over emails that Ruben and I had exchanged. Yeah. It is an open investigation, so that would be something that I would expect from the investigators. We want every ounce of information that is relevant to this case

so that we can determine if there is anything that we can follow up with. I also tell Rob the OPP has allegedly deterred Lindy Vardy, the owner of the old Almaguen Highlands Information Center, from letting me back onto the property. I did go and search two areas. And then afterward, I heard from one of the people who showed me one of those areas that the OPP had become interested in that location. Rob says he doesn't know the specifics, but defends the idea that I, or Lindy, could be charged with a crime. Technically speaking, if anybody was aware of something like that, I'm not suggesting this is the case, but, you know, is it possible that you'd be obstructing justice? I ask Rob if he can confirm whether the OPP now considers Lindy's property a crime scene. No, I'm not going to give out, I'm not going to confirm or deny anything.

We will follow up every lead that we learn. Now that we're talking about it, I ask Rob if that location has ever been searched by the OPP. Offhand, I can't. I have no idea. I mean, I was part of the investigation for I guess the first two years, and I can say it wasn't then, just because I was part of it,

but then I was promoted and left. Was it searched? After I left, I have no idea. It seems to me that if the OPP had searched the old Almequin Highlands Information Center, Rob would have heard about it. I would hope that I would have been contacted. But again, you know, I had moved on in the organization and other people were assigned to

it. They certainly had no obligation to call me because I wasn't part of it anymore. I come back to this topic later on. Does the OPP consider either the former dump sites or the former Elmagwin Islands Information Center places of interest? I'm not going to comment on that. I'm not going to comment on that. Okay. And are there plans to search them now?

I'm not going to comment on that. I tell Rob about Ruben, the man who runs the cab company in town, and who says he followed a stranger down a trail behind the old Almequin Highlands Information Center. I showed him a photograph of several people, and he identified the person he had seen in the woods that day as being Ron Allen. And he said that he was absolutely positive. Rob says Ruben's tip was received, but there's a catch.

That information, he saw him some three months before Joan Lawrence was reported as missing. Oh, that's interesting. Okay. There wasn't any evidentiary value to that because Joan was still alive when he saw that individual. When I spoke to him, he said that he thought he had seen a news story on the TV or something about her disappearance. No, our investigators went back and spoke to him,

and through a great deal of work, they determined that it was approximately three months before he was reported missing that he saw that whatever he saw happened. We couldn't reach Ruben when we tried following up with him, but I don't think we should discount his sighting too quickly. Based on the timeline, even if what Ruben witnessed happened before John disappeared, it would have still been after John Crofts and John Semple went missing. I tell Rob that people have complained to me about the OPP's investigation, starting with Laura Beacom.

Laura says that her mother called the police, but nobody followed up on her statement. Rob confirms that Laura's mother's tip was received by police. Some of the allegations are serious. One person alleges that the OPP asked them to change their statement. Well, that would never happen. Okay. And if I learned of an officer doing that, I'd be the first one to be dialing up professional standards

and I'd be the first one to be dialing up professional standards, and I'd be launching an internal investigation. On a different call, I tell Rob about Susan. So, I had spoken to someone named Susan Palikas, and she's the woman who claims that she found false teeth in her yard. Rob confirms that they did, in fact, retrieve false teeth from Susan's property, though it's not clear how important the evidence may have been. She says that there was a constable who came to collect the teeth,

and then during a subsequent interview, she alleges that an officer named Jeff pressured her to agree to his suggestion that one of her dogs may have brought the teeth from a different area of the property. She says that she was unable to leave the interview until she said what Jeff wanted her to say. And I tell Rob about a similar allegation from Bob Earl, that an officer named Jeff asked him to change his statement. He says he told Jeff what he'd witnessed 20 years ago, but was told to leave out the part where he was dismissed. Bob also says that Jeff told him that John Lawrence's investigation was closed.

Rob eventually responds with this. I have followed up with that information. I won't, because it's an HR matter, I won't confirm. I won't, I can't speak to it. You have followed up with that information. I won't, because it's an HR matter, I won't confirm. I won't, I can't speak to it. You have followed up? I have looked internally and we have dealt with the matter. When I try to get more information on what became of Bob's actual tips, Rob will still only confirm that they were received. Rob will still only confirm that they were received.

For a guy who didn't want to talk, Rob is still talking. I try to make the most of it by asking about things I've been wondering for years. Like, did police ever find the other rifle? The one that was used to kill Joan's cats and possibly Joan? I just won't speak to a point of evidence, especially when it's physical evidence. In all the police documents I have, the Land family is featured prominently. I ask Rob if police still suspect David Land and Ron Allen of murdering Joan Lawrence. Well, I won't comment on an open, unsolved investigation. What I will say is there are four missing seniors, three of which had health issues,

and they had great difficulty walking due to their age, and there was only one common denominator for all four seniors. Those documents were created in the very early stages of the investigation. So as investigations proceed, we acquire different information. Oftentimes, it influences the case. So I won't speak to exactly what information we have now. I'll just leave it at that. It's an interesting answer, and one that could suggest the OPP's theory evolved over time. I've always been curious if Walter's home invasions changed police's focus and whether he became a suspect in this case because those home invasions, as I'm sure you know, targeted elderly people who were vulnerable.

Yes, as I said, there's one common denominator in the disappearance of all four seniors. While we're talking about Walter, I ask Rob where the story comes from about Walter allegedly wrapping John Semple in a blanket and loading him into a van. That was information that resulted from our investigation. Rob says the story has a factual basis, that it wasn't fabricated in order to elicit a response. I can't comment on where the information came from. That would be inappropriate for me to do so. You know, it is a point of evidence.

There is holdback information in this case. I can't tell you what it is, but that's one of the ways that we assess the value of evidence coming in when people come forward. Do police still have suspects in general? We do. One time while Rob and I are talking, something strange happens. I'm going to tell you something. He says he has something he wants me to know.

In an almost inaudible whisper, he says, no, I can't do it. Are you there? Yeah, I'm here. Then Rob seems to change his mind. There's a time and a place to do everything, and right now is not the time. Okay. That's an intriguing cliffhanger to leave on. It sounds like there's something that you want to tell me, but you're not letting yourself.

You know how long I've been involved with this investigation, the family? This investigation has consumed my thoughts for over 20 years. Not a week has gone by where I have not thought about this case. Even though Rob seems to have decided not to tell me whatever he was thinking, for now, it's nice to hear him say he still cares about the case, and still wants to make an arrest. I want nothing more than to bring closure to the families of those missing four individuals. And I jumped at the chance to be the case manager when I was transferred three years ago. You've come full circle with this case.

I have. That must be nice. I mean, I can't think of another... It'll be nice if we're able to bring resolution to it, if we can lay a charge. But we're not there. If we were there, I'd be standing in front of everybody saying, we've laid charges, but we're not there. Rob and I have come full circle, too. And before the conversation ends, he tells me we have something in common.

Yeah, actually, I think I've... Your father is an artist, isn't he? Yeah, he is. Yeah, I think I... When I used to live there, my life was... Very was very much used to do the arts tour every year. I'm sure I was in your father's studio. You've been to my house then. Apparently, this isn't the first time our paths have crossed. That's funny. I would have been a young boy at the time.

You would have. I was probably the lead detective on this investigation when I did the tour. Wow. God, who would have thought that we'd be talking all these years later? I wonder if the obsession Rob and I have had with this story will somehow translate to the next big break. You know, you were so interested in this case,

you're still interested in it now, and now I'm interested in it, so I wonder if someone who hears the podcast is going to become so interested in it that maybe they come forward with information. I hope so. You know, these individuals were helpless, they were preyed upon by this family,

they were taken advantage of, and they deserve to be found and the person's responsible to see justice. I look forward to bringing this investigation to a successful conclusion one day. You know, through your assistance, perhaps someone out there may know something and get back to us and you know they may have the piece of the missing puzzle. Okay thanks again for your time Rob. I really appreciate it. Welcome Xander. Okay bye for now. Sure we'll talk soon. Okay no doubt. Okay bye. I continue to ask Rob for the exact date of his press conference. It remains elusive. The last I hear, he hopes it happens by the end of July.

I had come to the end of my investigation, just as Rob seemed to be picking his back up. It gives me hope that, despite the passage of time, the Cat Lady case will one day be solved. Thanks for listening. If you have any information about the disappearances of Joan Lawrence, John Semple, John Crofts, and Ralph Grant, please reach out to me through my website, or at zandersherman at gmail.com. If something new happens in the case, I'll be sure to let you know. And for the latest, keep an be sure to let you know.

And for the latest, keep an eye on CBC Podcast's social media feeds. This is one that I was wondering if you could read it. It's from 1940, which it would have been 1920. Okay. Okay, and it's titled, I Saw a Rose at Dawn. which it would have been 1920. Okay. Okay, and it's titled, I Saw a Rose at Dawn. I saw a rose at dawn. Its leaves were furled, as though to guard it from the careless world.

The morning sun, just rising from his bed, threw soft caresses on its sleeping head. As fair a thing it was as I have found, save for the thorns that compassed it around. Why must our sweetest thoughts be edged with pain? Our dearest dreams be born to live in vain. Perhaps the rose, without its bitter sting, would like the weed become a common thing. Perhaps the heart, deprived of sorrow's lash,

would lose its fire and turn to barren ash. Uncover the Cat Lady Case is hosted, written, and reported by me, Xander Sherman. The podcast is produced by Graham MacDonald and Mika Anderson, who is also our audio producer. Original music for this series by Larch and Sarah Spring. Original music for this series by Larch and Sarah Spring. Our digital producers are Fabiola Carletti, Olivia Pasquarelli, Sarah Clayton, and Judy Tzigou. Video production by Evan Agard. Ben Shannon did our graphics and illustrations.

Transcriptions by Varad Mehta. The senior producer of CBC Podcasts is Tanya Springer. The executive producer is Arif Noorani. And Leslie Merklinger is our senior director. A special thanks to the team at the Fifth Estate, especially Lisa Mayer and Timothy Sawa, for their research and reporting. As well, thanks to Cecil Fernandez for technical support,

Chris Oak for additional script consulting, and Patrick Mooney and Kathy Ross at the CBC Reference Library. Uncover is a CBC podcast. You can find out all about this series at cbc.ca slash podcasts.