Undoctrinate Yourself - #18 - Sophia Ruiz

Episode Date: March 12, 2025

Sophia Ruiz is an esthetician, published dermatology researcher, and wellness influencer turned holistic beauty brand founder, inspired by her own journey with cystic acne. Our heart-centered conversation spans from spirituality to science and skincare, I hope you all enjoy it. Find Sophia on:Instagram: ⁠@wellbysophia⁠ http://www.instagram.com/wellbysophia/⁠Sana Haus⁠: https://sanahaus.co/⁠Skincare Blog⁠: https://sanahaus.co/blogs/sageSupport the podcast by becoming a patron: www.patreon.com.undoctrinateyourselfpodcastFollow the podcast on Instagram: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠@undoctrinateyourselfpod⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Follow Dr. Alexis on Instagram: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠@dralexisjazmyn⁠⁠

Hello everyone and welcome back to Undoctrinate yourself. Today I have a really fun guest for you who I just recently connected with actually. This is Sophia Ruiz. She's an esthetician and I'm going to let her introduce a little bit about what she does and her unique approach to skin care and health, which I think we kind of resonated immediately over. But just for starters, welcome, Sophia. Thank you so much for having me. I'm so excited to chat with you today. Me too, me too. So do you want to introduce a little bit about maybe how you got in. interested in skin and into skin care and aesthetics and maybe we can take it from there. Totally, yeah. So I, when I was, I have like this distinct memory at the kitchen table with my mom. We were in Australia at the time, which is where my family's from and from the big down under, the land down under. And we were sitting at the kitchen table and my mom saw blackhead on my lip. And she was like, is that a blackhead? And, I was like seven at the time. So at seven, I was already starting to build this awareness of my skin. And my mom dealt with acne when she was younger and went on birth control and all of these things. So

she was already kind of like aware like, oh, like, you know, something's going on here. And then by the time I was 11, I was already dealing with pretty mild, but mild to moderate acne. And I started to get really confused, but also was just like very self-aware and didn't really know how. to address it. And I've always had this like curious mind of why things happen. You know, why do things, why do we use the treatments that we use? Why do certain things work and certain things don't? And so, you know, I got started on like those clean and clear three step systems and eventually ended up cycling through all of these different treatments, benzoporoxide and you salicylic acid, you know, the whole like shebang. And by the time I was 15, I was actually put on hormonal birth control for

irregular cycles and the doctor was like, oh, you know, this will fix your breakouts too and all of that. So typical kind of trajectory, typical pipeline. So I've been dealing with acne since I was 11 and tried virtually every treatment under the sun for years and years and years, except like acutane and antibiotics, I think was like the two main things that I never really traversed into. So my journey with my skin, my relationship with my skin, my awareness of my skin started really young. So, you know, birth control and all that. By the time I was 16, 17, I had full-blown, fully-fledged, like, moderate, what I would consider moderate cystic acne.

And it basically ruled, like, my mind for years of trying to figure it out and what to do about it. And that's exactly what led me into the holistic healing world. and because everything that I had tried myself, all of the conventional treatments that I had kind of played with never worked for me. And some would work somewhat, but not fully. And then things would change. And it was just also confusing.

And so basically because of that got interested in the holistic world and aesthetics and the skin and, you know, facialists and what is the deal with facial? Why are they so good for acne? And all of these things basically ended up getting. interested in aesthetician school, became an esthetician, thinking that would be the answer to my skin problems. Like there was some forbidden, you know, hidden knowledge in aesthetic school that was going to teach me how to heal my acne so that I could help other people do it. In the midst of that, I ended up getting pregnant at 20, I ended up getting married that same year. And, you know, my life

kind of was like all over the place. So many big changes happened. Most states, all these things. things. And in an attempt to kind of find a way to make money while still being at home with my daughter, I looked into remote work and ended up falling on a writing job because I had really found a passion for writing in aesthetic school and knew that I didn't really love like the kind of in office aesthetics, facial kind of stuff. I really, really loved the education. And, you know, all of the ins and outs of actives and treatments and all of these things. And basically I've found this passion for writing that I was then trying to make a career in being a new mom at home and ended up working with an amazing dermatology research team,

actually for hair loss, but the scalp and the skin are one and the same. There's some differences there, but ended up working with the skin. this dermatology team, which completely revolutionized the way that I thought about the skin and science and really created the framework for an understanding of, you know, the skin and all the right questions to ask about how we address the skin, how we relate to the skin, and how we approach healing the skin. And I got a few published papers under my belt, actually. Wow. I know. I think three, it's been a, it's been a, it's a, been a while. I'm pretty sure it's three papers. I think there was one more in there that was kind of

influx, but got a few papers published in some nice journals, and that was really cool. And basically, this new found kind of understanding, this new way of relating to the skin, a new understanding of the physiology of the skin through the lens of holistic healing and natural health, which I had developed such an intense passion for over those years of, education and learning and development. Basically, I was inspired not only by the botanicals, the plants, all of the amazing nutrients and phytochemicals that I had learned about, but also there was such a missing piece in the holistic skincare marketplace for acne specifically, and not just what active ingredient, natural active ingredient do we use, but one that looks

at the skin holistically of what does the skin like? What does the skin not like? What really interfaces with the physiology of the skin in a way that it's getting to the real cellular dynamics of the skin and working with the natural cellular dynamics of the skin in a way that we're recreating homeostasis and really using skincare to create homeostasis in the skin? And so many the different holistic skincare products that I had been using, had been researching, were really, they were good on some ends. And then in other ways, I was like, well, there's that oil that's disruptive and there's this oil that's disruptive and this ingredient that could be a problem. And I'm really out of my own need for a skincare solution for my own skin that I was still battling

with through many different diets and skincare regimens and all sorts of different things. I really needed to create something for myself. And so that's kind of what I did. I messed around with a little bit of formulation and found some suppliers. And then we basically ended up creating our very first skincare product for my skincare company, which is sauna house. And the rest is history. The serum worked so amazingly on my skin so quickly in a way that nothing else had ever worked.

before that I was just like, what just happened? It just kind of felt like it landed in my lap. And I was just like amazed. And from there, we launched the product. So many different people all over the world now, have used clarity and have had incredible results with it. And so, you know, that's kind of been my journey thus far from that was like the inception of like what felt like how I got into what I'm doing now and sort of how I got into what I'm doing now and sort of how I I ended up in the place where I am now. There's been a massive, like, shift and change and evolution for me personally, even after the fact. But that was really how I got started and how I got to where I am now. Oh, I love your story so much. Also, because it resonates a lot with my experience,

too. So I had, I can't remember a time in childhood where maybe I was very self-aware about my skin, but definitely around the time middle school came around and like puberty started, I started getting really terrible acne, which escalated probably starting in like seventh grade up through maybe 10th grade where like I would get these huge cystic like pimples and they would just be full of pus and like it was it was horrifying. I just mentioned this on my last podcast episode two with with my friend we were talking about the birth control pill because I was put on the pill for my acne as well. But yeah, yeah, these these sists were just like incredible. Like I swear like an eighth of a teaspoon of pus would come out of them.

I know. And so painful. So painful. And so so like that you could just, it's not even like you may not even be like self-aware, like self-conscious as a person of it, but you can just feel it on your face. It's like, you know, it's very, if nothing else, it's very distracting. It's just like, you know, these, you feel. it's like hot and painful and sometimes it's itchy but yeah it's just like there's it's it's crazy

what's what can sometimes go on with with our skin and and like the way things can kind of you know develop some I've looked at different pimples that I've had in the past and gone oh my gosh like that was why I was so fascinated by it almost like how does that happen you know yeah absolutely and I think for somebody who hasn't had like for a person who doesn't have experience with acne, I think it's hard to conceptualize how self-conscious it can make you and like how just like it's hard to externalize sometimes you don't really want to be seen in public, especially around that younger age where it's like you're trying to fit in, you're trying to make friends, maybe thinking about like dating and things like that.

And it's it's like unfathomable even thinking about socializing in that way when you just feel so self-conscious and not understanding like why this is happening to you. And so with your product when you released clarity, that was like the biggest turning point for your skin? That was the biggest turning point for my skin. It was it's it's it was incredible because you know I I I you know there were so many things that happened like I feel like I I went through like a like accelerated development course between like 18 and 21 and so many things happened in those three years you know baby marriage uh, aesthetician school career starting uh and then I had all of this undercurrent of my own personal research for my own healing and my own personal optimization and all of these things. And

you know, I had tried a lot of different diets, you know, in that three-year span in an attempt to clear my skin. You know, I kind of did Mediterranean style. I ventured on the more plant-based kind of traversed those waters a little bit, went more like animal-based, balanced, but like higher fat. And then all sorts of different things. I experimented with all sorts of different things and nothing really ever made a huge dent in my skin. And I, you know, it sounds kind of superficial to say that that was really my marker, you know, but in a lot of ways, I think, you know, sometimes the superficial stuff can be spurring in inspiration for healing deeper in deeper ways. And that's definitely been my journey. And so, you know, I tried all

these different things in the midst of all of that doing different actives, different, you know, skincare products, different skincare regimens, different approaches. And everything seemed just to make it worse. I just could never figure out. And so that's really what spurred me to look deeper into why is acne happening? What in our environment, what both in our external internal environment is contributing to breakouts? And what could it be about the skincare or the diet or the, you know, the things that I'm doing in my everyday life that are being a blocker, that are making obstacles in my way to getting clearer skin and healing my skin. Because I fully believed that it was possible to heal my skin. I mean, I'd seen it happen for so many different people. It's just mine was a much

longer journey. But at the same time, you know, it carried me to that moment of finding all of this research that culminated in this moment of like finding the formula that cleared my skin. And it was absolutely the biggest turning to my skin. And it's actually really cool because, you know, I had actually been writing a skin course up into that point, just documenting all of my research and kind of distilling it into a course. And that, looking for a, you know, recommendations for topical products to, you know, make recommendations in my course. is actually what spurred me, made me realize, like, how little was on the market that was actually truly tailored to acne-prone skin. And so I had this moment, and I've told this story before,

but I had this moment in the bathroom when I had finished the course. I was putting the finishing touches on it. And I had this formulation, you know, that I was sitting on that I was like, well, I can't find anything to recommend, so I may as well make my own. And I was in the bathroom from getting ready for bed one night doing my skincare. And I felt, you know, what I believe to be God, you know, some people may have different names or whatever, semantics or non-issue. But I felt what I believe to be God tell me, you think it's about the course, but it's actually about the product.

And I obviously had finished the course at that point. It was six months of six months plus, you know, of physical work, but really my whole life up until that point's work distilled into one, you know, little course presentations and all of these things and put so much work and effort into it. And I've just felt God tell me, just give the information away for free. The product is what you need to focus on. And it's just, it was just incredible. I didn't realize the impact that the product would have at that point. But now seeing it all unfold, I realized what the turning point was for me has been the turning point for so many other people.

And it was just an incredible moment that my life had brought me to at that point. I was like, oh my gosh, like, this is just, you just kind of, you're in this moment of, wow, like I feel like I'm being led down a path that I've been made for in that moment, you know? So it was just a really crazy experience. It was the turning point for me for sure. And the turning point in so many different ways, not only just for my skin, but for my life purpose and journey as well. And so much has come out of that. Well, I love that story so much.

And also, again, like super resonates with me. I feel like these types of things, like when we're born, there's some level of like, you know, this is what you're here to do. and you can choose to walk the path or not. But if you choose not to walk the path, your life is going to be extremely difficult. And when you choose to walk the path, life becomes effortless in a lot of ways. And like the synchronicities happen and the connections happen.

That's just like magic that's just waiting to be had. And we just kind of have to surrender to that knowing that like there's something bigger, the controllingness. And if we're open to surrendering to that, life can just be so magical and just accelerated and like beyond our wildest dreams. Yeah. It's so true. I think that, you know, when you find your authenticity, you find your purpose, you find your craft,

your art in life, in the truest sense of the word, not what you think your art needs to be to get acceptance, what you think is going to make you the most money, what you think, you know, is going to get you ahead in life, what is going to get you status. If you can find that and tap into it and follow the path that, you know, that then leads you on, life becomes a simple yes or no of like, yes to my art, yes to my authenticity, yes to what God made me for, and no to everything else. And that might, you know, that for me has been the hardest thing of like not feeling like I have to say yes to things that aren't meant for me in order to create a sense of safety and security. that, you know, whoever's opinion that may be. And oftentimes I think that's, if we run into any

difficulty, it's that difficulty of like somebody telling you what your life should look like and how things should unfold in order to have safety and security and, you know, predictability and normalcy in your life. And, you know, knowing when to say no to things that look good on paper but actually aren't meant for you. And that's the journey I've been walking for the past, give or take three, four years, is just learning how to say yes to the yes, to the effortless yes and the path that God has me on,

even when it seems like it's a little bit, you know, we're traversing some interesting waters here. you know um but yeah man what a journey and yeah that's that that's it that's you know that's that's life right there like you said it it it becomes this sort of magical beautiful unfolding of your own story and both in the micro in your own life and as a part of the macro in the greater story and it's very it's honor to be a part of for sure truly and and and it becomes so much more fun and also you can kind of relax when you realize there's something bigger than you that you can trust that it's not like you just have to intellectually figure things out like what's

best and who to impress but instead you just have this connection with source that's going to be your guiding force and actually i was just talking about this also in the birth control episode because one of the biggest things i noticed when i got off the pill is that my gut feeling and my intuition was like the volume was cranked all the way up and i didn't even realize that it had been cranked down until I experienced that shift. And I think it really, like one example of this was like a few years ago, like about three or four years ago, I had applied to do a postdoc at Harvard. And it seemed like a great opportunity. It was like an integrative medicine program. I applied and everybody in the program loved me when I interviewed. They were super excited to have me. I was excited to go. But as the

time was approaching to finalize the paperwork, I just wake, I was waking up with this pit in my stomach that was telling me like don't go. And it was scary. I know Harvard. I mean, that's a perfect example of like, this is, looks like the panacea. It looks like the, what everyone says is the answer. And your intuition was telling you something completely different. Exactly. Exactly. I was literally waking up. Like I felt like I was developing an ulcer and I knew that if I said yes to the opportunity and move there, that that it was just not the move for me. And when I, you know, told them that I couldn't do it anymore and I was calling it off like this wash of just like pure relief came over me and it was like wow it was just such an important testament to me that like actually

my body is and and whatever forces are communicating with my body are going to tell me exactly what's meant for me and what's not and just like how relieving it is to be able to have something like that you can trust so that it's not just all on you absolutely I don't even know like when you start it's kind of interesting because it's almost like it's so perfect I don't want to say manufactured, but it's so perfectly intertwined in that way where when you, the most authentic version of you, the most authentic expression of you and your path and your purpose and life oftentimes requires that external source of guidance and, you know, affirmation and encouragement and love and care because you do have to know beyond a shadow of a doubt in a really real

way that you're going to be guided and protected on this when you're walking off seemingly off the beaten path, you know. And I surely know that I would not be where I am today without a guiding force of a higher, benevolent, loving, caring power. Like, it's just, it's, it's, they, they go, they go together. Like, you can't, you can't walk this path without that guiding force. And, you know, it requires such, you know, and I've been, it's kind of, it's so interesting. that you mentioned this because I'm like, I was getting all of these different things that I felt that God was sharing with me over like the course of like the last week and stuff. And it's interesting that you bring that up about that relationship to your intuition and your relationship

to your body and listening to the sort of signals and cues. And I think that comes differently for everybody. Like sometimes I will hear things what I feel like is audibly. Sometimes it will be just like a feeling like you mentioned. Like when I was going to release my course like, like, like I would wake up with a pit in my stomach. Like I could like it's so true and it's the perfect explanation for the feeling of like I just know I'm not supposed to do this. And after I had that moment in the bathroom and when I finally said I made the decision to not do it and to release all the information for and go just focus on the products,

I felt like you said, that wash of relief over me. And I just was like, I didn't know this was the right decision fully. until I made the decision and I felt that relief. And your body does communicate with you in that such an amazing way in that connection with divine that like is so undeniable. But at the same time, so anti, sometimes anti culture, anti, you know, the safe, what seems to be the safety and security that we are looking for, you know, and that people tell us, oh, we need to do things this way to achieve.

that. So it is really interesting because I've been really exploring this idea of relationship and how the universe is relational in nature, the God that, you know, creator and is relational fundamentally. And we see that, you know, I was actually just listening to Olivia interviewing Zach Bush, Dr. Zach Bush, about how cancer is an isolated cell outside of relationship. And then the moment we become disconnected from our bodies, the moment we become disconnected from nature, the moment we become disconnected from God is when we are in self-preservation mode in isolation, and we make decisions that are completely out of alignment with our authenticity, you know, in order to maintain survival and maintain safety. And I think that's how a lot of the world is operating.

And on a microscale, we can see how that is like the beginning of disease. And that's the beginning of, you know, different malignancies like cancer, losing the isolation and losing relationship and really how when you fundamentally move away from the design of the universe, which is relational and is love, that that's when you experience all of these different, you know, diseases and issues that we experience so much in society, you know, on a, on a micro and a macro level, on a physical and a psychological level. And it's just such a crazy thing, you know, that so much of this comes down to being in relationship with one another, being in relationship with God in the sense of trusting a higher benevolent

power to lead us on our path and guide us on our path and protect us. And that we observe that everywhere in nature. It just blows my mind. It's so wild. It's beautiful. And also the sacred messenger of disease, it's literally telling you something's not right. It's directing your attention and awareness somewhere for you to be able to bring that attention there to be able to make changes in your life. But instead, the like Western approach is to literally numb

things and just like eliminate symptoms and it's totally missing the point of the reason that symptom was there to begin with. And as a result, we're numbing that symptom. We're pushing it deeper and it's going to manifest at an even more fundamental level. And maybe, you know, some, and the crazy thing about it is some people, like I feel like we all have a personal threshold of pain that we're willing to tolerate before we're willing to change. And the sad fact of the matter is that some people will die before they're ready to change because, you know, maybe that's their karma or whatever it is. It's hard to say. Like, I think we all have some sovereignty over that as well. But there's so many people that are just so indoctrinated and just asleep to the connection with their higher self and with God

and that they feel like they're kind of lost and it becomes so much easier to just numb the pain of existing versus like just trying to make the change to get back on the path that's meant for you. Right. Totally. And I think we're all looking for a sense of security and safety. And I've been looking at this just in navigating even like the social media world that I've been kind of trying to understand for the last four or five years. And this this concept of like dogma. And I think as humans, we all. desire like a sort of blanket checklist that we can follow, that we can guarantee that we're going to be healthy and live long and have a good life and, you know, have safety and security. And the reality is like that there are, I think there's foundationals, there's fundamentals

that we can follow in our lives that, you know, that are more or less, you know, going to give us a, you know, a variable success rate, you know, things like you have to eat, you have to drink water, have to exercise, you have to do all these things, but the details, the intricacies that, you know, are so unique to an individual, like, you know, the different gene expressions and proclivities and all of those things that make, you know, make it so hard to blanket, make recommendations, whether it be for nutrition or medicine or even like philosophically, like how we live our lives and our purpose and all of those things, you realize, and it comes back to that idea of relationship, like you realize you really do need something, you need a relationship with your

body and you need a relationship with something outside of yourself that you believe is guiding you towards health and healing and happiness, at least for me, that's what I personally believe, because otherwise you're going to seek security and safety and happiness in somebody else's blueprint of what that looks like. And I think as with science and medicine and nutrition, we, we do that a lot. It's our, I feel like it's our inherent sort of default as humans is to have blueprints and checklists and, you know, a step by step process and those things are all good and fine and foundational and all those things. But really developing that relationship with yourself of learning to listen to your body and the intricacy of its different, you know,

needs and the uniqueness of you and your unique needs and all of those things really comes down to relationship and listening and being witnessing your body and being a good listener to your body and so that way you know how to kind of navigate your life in a way that benefits you uniquely because we all have individual needs and purposes and plans and all of those things. really developing that intuition with your body is so, so important. And I think people really sort of forego that and externalize that, that sort of responsibility. I hate to use that work because it feels like sort of like admonishment or like, you know, a little bit aggressive.

But we do tend to want to outsource that authority to other people for safety and security rather than going inward and really listening, you know? And I think that's such an important part of healing for sure. Absolutely. I feel like there's such an appeal to authority. Can you hear that? No, I can't. Oh, thank God. Okay. There's like some loud noise in the background. Anyways, the appeal to authority is really going strong in today's society, I think, especially with social media and just like the way the powers that be are structured. It's very much like we're going give you the information and you're going to take it as fact and that's like quote unquote the science and that's just you know that's how things are but i mean when it comes to science like there is no the science

that it's always in flux it's always changing and it's always approaching some form of reality but models will never fully like they'll only ever approximate reality it's never going to be factual so that's why it becomes so important to look at things through the context and the lens of your own life and and that allows you to understand what information is, you know, useful for you or maybe what information doesn't make sense for you or you don't need to consider at this time. But I think the informed consent part of the conversation is the most important thing. Like all the cards should be on the table and you should be able to pick what makes sense for you in the context of the whole of like all of the totality of information. And obviously that can be overwhelming in some

cases too for people, which I totally sympathize with, which is why like it's really good to find people who have integrity, who have a track record of being right about things. And then that allows you to be, like, have some trust. It's not like blind faith, but at least trusting that you could get information from these people and then do your best to also vet it yourself and see, you know, does this make sense? And obviously there's some context of this too, like certain topics you're going to be more interested in than others.

But ultimately, it comes down to like the more awareness and responsibility you have over different things you're doing in your life. the more you'll have control over and the less things are going to blindside you and cause potentially disease from a place of ignorance. Totally. And you said it so perfectly. It's like we all have a personal responsibility to contextualize all the information that comes our way and consume mindfully. And I think like you said, really trusting a practitioner or an expert or a scientist, somebody that values context and nuance and can kind of, you know, come to put that at the forefront and say like these situations, this may apply and kind of guiding people and

navigating and sort of learning to practice the art of intuitive assimilation of knowledge and you know, learning how to really listen and consume in a way that is balanced and actually in the long term benefits you. It's a hard thing to navigate for sure. But I think like you you have that inbuilt kind of compass and guiding, you know, what's, I don't know what the word would be, but we all have just like an internal guiding compass that I feel like is kind of magnetizing us to the right information. And God is always putting the right people and the right information on our path that ultimately will benefit us. And I think we're all just in one big learning process and lesson. And I think that the more we become being comfortable, the more we become comfortable

with being uncomfortable with the lack of like panaceas and one stop shops and singular answers, the more we find comfort in our uniqueness and finding what's right for us and listening to our bodies and really being present. And that's really been my journey. It has been that of just like learning to traverse the world of information and science and come out of it with, you know, a comfortability in the uncomfortableness that context and nuance can kind of make us feel, you know? I love that. And when we're each engaging in like our own little research pursuits on whatever interests us,

I always find it so interesting. Like there's always this golden thread where it's like it feels like interest. Like our interest and our curiosity is kind of out of our control. Like there will just be something. that grips you and it's like I need to know more about this and you can't explain it intellectually like why that might be but I think that also relates to your calling and your path and your authenticity is telling you follow this thread follow these breadcrumbs and then if you go down that rabbit hole it's just like a whole world emerges to you and it's just like one of the most exciting

feelings you could experience yeah it's so true that's the perfect way to put it I think we all like can find comfort in knowing that people who have kind of traversed this path that there's a lot of similarities in that like I've had those golden thread moments too and it's like I think somebody who maybe is overwhelmed with all of the information on like nutrition and research and science and even like skincare and all of those things can find comfort in knowing that there are there is that golden thread and like you're not crazy if like you can't get off a topic or you can't you just feel something pulling you because I think that that really is the guiding force through all of the you know in amount of content and nutrition information and science that we kind of have to contend

with on a daily basis now because of the internet and social media and everything and really just coming back to trusting that and you know silencing all the noise and just really coming back to that like you said that golden thread that you just like can't get away from it's so perfect that's exactly the best way to put it i love that so when you were first diving in you were working with the dermatology research team, what topics? You said, were you researching topics related to how acne occurs and how to treat it? And then, so can you give us maybe some, maybe some interesting examples of approaches that you found that you ended up implementing and found success with? Yeah. So what's kind of cool is I really started to, the cool thing about, I did hair loss

research in the dermatology research group. That's what all of the papers that I worked on are about. but the scalp and the skin are one and the same. It's follicles. They just have different kind of, it's just a little bit different. But same kind of principles, same kind of approach. But what hair loss research really helps me to do was to look at the skin from a structural perspective and look at it as sort of like a mini like organ system, which is really what the skin is.

Like the skin itself is an organ, but it has all of these mini organs in it. So you have like the hair follicle itself, which has this amazing dynamic. of stem cell, you know, interactions going on. And then you have the sebaceous gland, which is an interesting kind of functioning organ in and of itself. And then you have the layers of the skin and the different layers like the dermis and the epidermis and the different layers of the epidermis. And it really is such an incredible, a live, dynamic organ. And I started to look at it from that perspective of why are we just looking at research, you know, on the skin as a whole unit when different molecules that are applied or ingested interact with different organs

in the skin, many organs in the skin in different ways, right? So I started to look at that from the hair loss perspective in the sense of you have certain molecules that you might apply to the scalp, for example, that affect the sebaceous glands. in one way that may be negative for hair growth, but affect the sort of hair follicle, um, dermal papilla kind of organ system that the follicle is, it might benefit the dermal papilla and helping to increase the division of hair follicle, of hair cells and all of the different stem cell kinetics that go on there, but it might actually negatively benefit, negatively affect the sebaceous gland, which then has, you know, a negative impact on hair loss,

and you might have like a net neutral effect where something does nothing. And so really looking, instead of looking at the skin as just like one singular organ, looking at it from all different perspectives of how all different factors influence all different parts of the skin. And so it really encouraged me to look at the physiology of the skin from a structural standpoint, but also from the perspective of bioavailability from pharmacological, like the half lives of certain things. And the skin has a very specific like penetration like scenario going on where it can only absorb certain molecules when they are in their lipid form or only if they're under a certain molecular weight. And this is all kind of like, you know, just like the stuff that I was

simulating and going, oh my gosh, like we aren't. looking at the skin deeply enough. We just are looking at it like, especially with acne, we look at it like bacteria and exfoliation and all and not, we're not looking at the way that the skin functions and where the disruptions in homeostasis may be that actually precipitate the formation of acne. And so that's really the mind shift that that whole experience gave me. it really was looking at the skin in a completely different way and starting to really consider the impact that one singular compound can have on the skin in so many different ways and have such a widespread and kind of variable effect and looking at what are the best

ingredients then that benefit the skin as a whole that we can work with and optimize and really create formulas or create approaches to addressing the skin in a way that takes the whole physiology and structural nature and all of these different things into account so that we get better results. We're treating the skin as a whole in a holistic fashion rather than this kind of isolated like, you know, cherry picking different, you know, aspects of the skin, you know, that kind of thing. I love that.

I love that. Something for the listeners, actually, that I learned. Sometime in the past year, I've become very obsessed with circadian biology and the skin playing a very important role in that because there's these photoreceptors in the skin that can detect different types of light. But something that made me think about a lot was like the developmental origins of different tissues because something interesting is that the brain, the immune system, and the skin all derive from a part of the developmental organism. that's called the neuroectaderm, and they, as a result, share a lot of similarities between, like, their genes that are expressed there and their metabolic functions and their hormonal functions. And so super interesting in the context of, like, the Palm C story, which I've discussed on like a previous podcast, but the brain, the skin, the eyes, the immune cells, they all play a really important role in facilitating, basically interpreting the light environment and then using that information to tune the output of, like, like the hormonal milieu and the metabolic system. So super interesting. But I would love to hear, you know, if you have any specifics that you learned early on that people could, you know,

start changing about maybe their lifestyles or even like products they're using. Of course, they should check out yours. But with regards to like acne, are there things that you do in like your lifestyle that will influence whether or not you're going to get flare ups or how to like make them like diminish more quickly? Yeah. So there, I think it's very highly individual. you know, this is where like the skin is so interesting because it's the only organ that interfaces like really intensely with the external environment as well as the internal environment. And so you have so many more different factors at play that are like to be considered. And that's kind of like what I try to do in in the way that I approach the skin. In terms of internal, I think that there are like some general like I think the gut is. is very, very important. The gut skin axis, and they actually, there was a research paper that came out decades ago, but it really began to sort of underscore the importance of gut health in skin health.

And especially when it comes to acne and breakouts, they actually found a higher level of reactivity of endotoxin in acne patients than they did with control patients who didn't have acne. And so there is definitely an endotoxin sort of. of role in acne and endotoxins being, you know, the molecules that pass through the gut when leaky gut is, you know, occurring. And when you have sort of a leaky intestinal state, these endotoxins get into your bloodstream and into your skin and can incite those sort of inflammatory responses that lead to the formation of acne. Inflammation is the most important

root cause of acne before any sort of bacterial overgrowth happens, before any sort of skin cell overproduction happens before any sort of exfoliation changes in the skin happen. You have inflammation. And so inflammation being the root cause of all diseases still holds true when it comes to acne. And so obviously endotoxins being highly inflammatory. If you have leaky gut, you're going to be dealing with an inflammatory burden on the skin that can then increase the risk of developing acne. And so I think when it comes to the way that I approach acne internally is really supporting the gut. For me, I think fiber and polysaccharides, I love a good chia seed pudding for soothing the gut and rebuilding the gut lining and supporting the mucosa. And so yeah, fiber,

the polysaccharides, probiotics, I find can really be helpful, but they can also be kind of a hit or a miss when it comes to breakouts because you have some of these bacterial strains that might be histamine forming and histamine is a really potent acne trigger. I find that it really does a number on the skin, especially like in the perioral region. So like on the chin and like around the mouth and around the nose, histamine can be a really big contributor. And so probiotics, you have to be kind of like I find that you have to be pretty selective with in the sense of you, you don't want to select probiotic strains that could potentially be histamine forming and instead go for the ones that are more like either histamine regulators or net neutral histamine producers. And so one probiotic

that I love and that I often, you know, share about is lactobacillus remnosis GG. And it's like one of the most, and I don't know you know this, but it's like one of the most widely researched probiotic strains. It has an amazing history, but it's actually one of the only probiotic strains that have actually been tested for acne-prone skin. So like actually benefiting acne-prone skin in humans. And it was really cool because the study that they did, they actually found that lactobacillus remnosis g-g administered to humans reduces the levels of IGF-1 in the skin. And IGF-1 being a really potent trigger of acne, it actually interfaces with the root cause sort of factor in acne. And I thought that that was really amazing. That was like a more recent study that came out. But definitely the gut is

probably the thing that I focus on the most when it comes to internal. I feel like that just has such a plethora of implications in the rest of the body that when you really focus on healing the gut, that you focus on healing the rest of the body, like the liver. and the kidneys and all of that, I think really, and you are the gut queen. You obviously, like, this is like your wheelhouse. I loved your tip about the, you know, the apple skin peals and the human milk oligalaccharides. And I think all of that is definitely something that people can benefit from if you're

struggling with acne. Those approaches are very highly tailored. and very beneficial to the skin for sure. Yeah, I love that. I have a similar approach with probiotics. I think even like even beneficial strains like the lactobacilli can be problematic in the context of like certain contexts like in post-antibiotic setting. So there was a really cool study that was from 2018 in cell and they showed that basically if you gave lactobacillus containing probiotics after antibiotics, it took those individuals six months to regain their normal microbiome composition. And the people who got nothing regain their microbiome composition within four weeks.

Yeah, crazy. Yeah. And they basically showed that the lactobacillia can create these molecules that inhibit the growth of other bacteria. So they kind of like carve out a niche within the gut. And it's at the expense of other beneficial microbes. So there's always context, I think, with probiotics. I think absolutely in certain ones, there could be a really good utility. But I'm also like you, like I would only use very specific trains for specific reasons for a period of time.

but I think really like the prebiotic approach and also leveraging like sunlight and UV light on your on your skin is such a potent way to feed that gut skin access and really help to support microbiome diversity in a in like a more sustainable way instead of like a probiotic if you're not taking it every day but you're also not eating the foods that are going to feed those bacteria then they may just kind of be in one end out the other you know totally totally yeah I think that um I really love a really gentle foundational approach to healing the gut of just like gently encouraging the growth of the bacteria and supporting biodiversity in the gut through different different kinds of fibers and different phytochemicals and all of those things and I think sometimes especially in today's

society where it is so like and social media it's all about like oh this is the panacean this is the thing that a really foundational approach really kind of flies in the face of all of that and people may feel pressured to kind of reach for oh this supplement or this probiotic or this you know anti-bacterial you know ingredient like olive leaf or oregano oil and all of these things in an attempt to heal the gut because we are looking for that panacea and sure there may be times where that is indicated where that may be beneficial and I know a lot of practitioners who really advocate for the use of those things in certain scenarios. But, you know, like you said, it's just like that the prebiotics and the sustainable foundational sort of approach to

healing the body rather than these quick fixes and, you know, one pill for every ill, but in the, you know, with still within the functional medicine sort of, you know, context, you know, because you could still have that where you're giving a supplement for every, every ill instead of a medication for every ill. And I really love just that really foundational, sustainable approach to healing the body. Prebiotic fiber is it. I love my prebiotics. They're amazing. And I was actually just learning about this also in the herbalism course that I'm taking through the School of Evolutionary I love that. Yeah. I actually did. I did do, I forget what the name of the course was, but I read Saja Poppum's book and all of it.

that. Yes, he's amazing. He's a genius. He's a, he's very, very well-versed in what he does. He is. He is, but we talk about in the course how, like, you can, you can basically just use the allopathic model and, like, pivoted to herbalism, but you're not actually doing anything differently. It's like you're just treating symptoms with herbs instead of drugs, but it's the same thing versus, like, trying to understand the, the totality of the person in front of you. And maybe, like, you know, their baseline constitutions or their, their predispositions. So that you can help to like gently push things into more of a balance versus just trying to like numb symptoms or treat symptoms. And it's such a like a mind shift, a mindset shift, but it's very

profound when it comes to like actually creating health in an individual over time and helping them to create health. Yeah, totally. That gentle approach is really sort of lost amongst all of the information that we are kind of inundated with on social media, on social media. you know, just really, like you said, like looking at the person in front of you and asking questions and being curious about, well, when did something start? And what does this connect back to emotionally? And, you know, what does this connect back to maybe, you know, locationally? Did you move? Did you start, you know, eating a different way? Did you start a new supplement regimen? Like, you know, what is going on in your life as a whole, as a whole entire person, mind, body, and soul that we can kind of use that data to help you

achieve more balance in your life. And that's the approach I take with the skin too. I think you, the moment that somebody comes to me and was like, I started breaking out and I have no idea why. And it just sort of popped out of nowhere. I'm like, okay, well, did you have a really stressful time period around that time? Did you move house? Did you move to a different city where maybe the water is different, you know, different chemicals in the water or different water treatment practices. Did you maybe try a new supplement? Did you try a new way of eating? Is that, you know, all of these different things that I think when we just go like, oh, well, you just need to address bacteria, or you just need to, you know, address, you know, you need to exfoliate your skin more, or you need

salicylic acid, or you need benzoporoxide, or you need, you know, all these different things. It's like, those things may be helpful for you, but like, let's, look at the context of who you are, what you're dealing with, and then really start to get very granular about how we support your skin and support, you know, in other contexts, support your body as a whole so that we can really start to create more sustainable balance in, you know, your body, in your skin, in, you know, whatever it is that we're looking at. And that does take time. And it takes a relationship. everything comes back to that for sure truly especially in the therapeutic context you can't i mean the way that we're doing things in the in the western model is just not sustainable like doctors having

only a couple minutes with their their patients they don't know these people like back in the day the doctors used to come to your home they used to know the whole family they used to know what your living environment was like it was just an entirely different approach and it was really based around relationship and and understood the importance of that as a part of the the therapeutic relationship and it's just so, so important. I had a question for you. So when you were making clarity, do you want to share some of the ingredients that are in there and like why you chose them and what they're doing in the skin? Yeah. So I, the really cool thing about the thing that fascinated me the most, and I think the thing that really started to create the foundation for the

clarity serum is looking at oils. Obviously, the skin is a lipophilic organ. It absorbs and it, for lack of a better word, it really likes oils. It really likes lipids. The skin barrier is made of lipids, seramides, fatty acids, and the cholesterol. But then the way that the skin interfaces with skincare is it really likes to absorb fat soluble compounds. So whatever you apply to your skin, fat soluble compounds are going to be the most bioavailable to the skin. And so they're going to have the most potency in the skin. And so that really led me to this sort of what felt like a total paradigm shift for me was that oils are good for the skin, incredibly healing for the skin, no matter what your skin type is. So whether you're dry, your combination or you're oily,

oils are your friend. And so when you look at oily acne-prone skin, it's not necessarily too much oil, although that can happen. What happens is a fundamental breakdown in the composition of the oil on your skin. So there's actually composition changes that happen that favor the development of acne. So one of those changes is a loss of an omega-6 fatty acid called linoleic acid and an increase in other fatty acids like the mono unsaturated fatty acid fatty acid oleic acid. you have an increase in a saturated fatty acid called pomatic acid and a few other changes like an increase in the amount of squaline which is hydrocarbon in sebum that is moisturizing but it's very very unstable to light and oxygen so it's very easily oxidized and basically that's one of the

initiators of acne formation because squaline when it's oxidized actually becomes a very potent comedogenic oil a very potent comedic etogenic lipid that then basically sets the stage for clogged pores and then bacterial overgrowth and the whole shebang. And so really looking at the skin from that perspective made me go, huh, why are we putting oils like olive oil, which is super high in oleic acid, that omega-6 saturated fatty, or omega-sit, sorry, omega-9, mono-unsaturated fatty acid that is already elevated in acne-prone-prone-prone skin. Why are we putting things like olive oil or argon oil or avocado oil on our skin when we already

have too much oleic acid and then we're putting more oleic acid onto the skin? Like what? That didn't really make sense to me. And so then when I started to dig deeper into the effects of oleic acid and palmitic acid on the skin, oleic acid is a very potent skin barrier disruptor. So it basically disrupts the shield between your skin and the rest of the world. So all these pollutants and allergens that your skin would normally be able to just kind of like block out, sort of make their way through the disrupted skin barrier, and then can incite inflammation. They can irritate the skin. They can do all sorts of different things. All sorts of different things can happen as a result of that. But basically it sets the stage for acne to form or to become exacerbated. You

might have more inflammatory situations going on. You have disrupted skin barriers also in things like eczema, in perioral dermatitis, in psoriasis. The disrupted skin barrier is a really important feature of many of the different skin concerns that we face, you know, as in our modern society. And so when I found that out, I was like, so not only are we adding to the imbalance in our skin with a lot of these holistic skincare products that are supposed to be better for us than conventional products. But we're actually disrupting the skin barrier. So there's all of this research that's starting to come out now that is going, you know, oh, we applied olive oil to the skin of rats or to human skin equivalents. And they're finding that it's actually disrupting the

skin barrier. And actually that we need to more closely balance the skin. And it's a lot of oil production and the skin lipid content in a way that is compatible with the skin's natural balance. So really utilizing oils can be so powerfully healing because it directly targets the imbalances in the lipid composition of the skin that set the stage for acne to form, not only from an inflammatory perspective, but from a skinberry perspective and all of those things. And so then I was sitting there going, so we just need to. focus on not oils as a whole, but there's a very narrow niche of oils that have therapeutic value in the skin and ones that encourage the skin lipid composition into a state that is actually

more closely resembles that of people who don't struggle with acne. And that really for me was a complete paradigm shift because I finally understood why when I started using holistic skincare, I was like, surely this is going to be a better option than the conventional stuff that I was using, but only to find out that it didn't really consider the totality of the skin or the state of acne prone skin. It was just using better options and cleaner ingredients, but it wasn't actually targeting the skin in a way that was precise, that was going to actually create balance. And so I was like, okay, finally it makes sense why holistic skincare didn't clear my skin. In fact, in a lot of cases, may have even made it worse. So now looking at this

narrow kind of niche of oils that I had to work with based on those findings, that's really what created the foundation for clarity. And that's what I see a lot with people that I work with. They're like, I'm using all clean products. I'm using all, you know, products with amazing ingredients and all of those things. But my skin has only gotten worse. And I'm like, oh, yeah, girl, there's like avocado oil and hobo oil and, you know, avocado oil in the oil that you're using. Oh, and there's honey in the, you know, in the moisturizer that you're using that's, you know, feeding certain pathogenic bacteria that are already overgrowing on your skin. And you're giving it more food sources to grow. And so really looking at the skin from the perspective,

of how do we create more balance in a very precise precision way and in a way that takes into account the intricacies of acne-prone skin. That's really what created the foundation for clarity. And those high linoleic acid oils that encourages skin back into a lipid composition that creates balance in the skin is really what I think is such a big part of the formula. Although there's lots of things going on in the formula, that really is. is such a huge powerhouse of the formula, the clarity formula that I think makes a huge difference when it comes to acne skin. I love that. So do the same rules apply to skin on the whole body, or is the facial skin unique in the way that it has like that fatty acid balance?

So it's across the whole body is. So the reason why linoleic acid, that omega-6 fatty acid, which obviously you have issues with omega-6 fatty acids when they convert into that pro-inflammatory erachydonic acid. And then that's when it facilitates, you know, inflammation and all of that. But if you can actually keep linoleic acid in its linoleic acid form and reduce the conversion to eryodonic acid by using the right balance of omegas, you know, whether it be like in your diet or, you know, topically on the skin, you can avoid that sort of issue. So we also, that's also taken into account when I work with people. But the reason why linoleic acid that fatty acid is so important is because it's actually a precursor to the seramides

that make up the building blocks of the skin barrier. So there are, you can make seramize with different other fatty acids. You can make ceramics with alleyic acid and you can make seramized with palatic acid, which is a saturated fatty acid that's really high in, you know, things like shay butter and other different butters and things in skincare. And the problem is, though, with the oleic acid and the pomatic acid seramides, is that they're not actually seramides that are as beneficial to the skin. So the linoleic acid fatty acid that creates linoleic acid serumides is actually the best seramide for the skin, and it's the most beneficial. And so even though, for example, like in acne-prone skin, because the facial skin is usually

affected and there's a myriad of reasons of why it seems to be isolated to the facial skin specifically, although there are different places you can get acne obviously, right? The reason why it is so beneficial there is because in acne you have a loss of the linoleic acid. So it actually is a lot lower. And by bringing the linoleic acid level up, by using a really targeted precision linoleic acid approach to topical skin care, you kind of create. You kind of create a create the homeostasis and the balance and encourage it back into a state where acne is less likely to occur. And you may have a part of your body on your skin, the part of your body and the skin on that part of your body that doesn't have breakouts, right? That isn't necessarily,

you know, dealing with that sort of lipid imbalance that we see in acne and doesn't need more linoleic acid necessarily. But it doesn't also doesn't, um, it doesn't, um, it. detract from the skin. So it does still benefit the skin. It's just not as necessary as what we would expect on skin that is affected by breakouts. So the linoleic acid in oils is really healing and balancing for acne prone skin in the areas that are affected by acne and not necessarily necessary in areas that aren't affected by acne, like your arms or your legs or your stomach or whatever, but still beneficial because it creates those really amazing, hydrating, barrier-building seramides that are so essential to health. Amazing. You're making me think of a few things, too, because I wanted to circle back to like the perioral dermatitis, psorias, eczema, because I see them a lot in association with insulin resistance and poor blood glucose control, which is super interesting.

And do you know if there's research around like the relationship between insulin resistance and like acne? Is there any research on that? Oh, 100%. It's one of the main drivers of acne. So with insulin resistance in the skin, what's really interesting that is unique, seems to be unique to acne sufferers or at least is present in acne sufferers, is that when your insulin levels go high and you have hyperinsulinemia, which is, you know, is a feature of insulin resistance in some cases, like usually on the earlier side of things, you have higher insulin levels. And then in the later stages of diabetes, your insulin levels actually like plummet. And so in the earlier stages of like pre-diabetes and the early stages of diabetes and even just like regular like sort of insulin resistance issues that aren't any sort of like pathology yet, you have the elevated insulin levels.

And so when these when the insulin travels through your blood to your skin, it actually activates IGF1. And it inactivates things like FOX-01 and. and AMPK and like all of these different other molecules, sorry, enzymes that are responsible for skin health and all these things. And one of the things that I found so interesting when I was researching acne was that insulin increasing IGF1 actually makes skin cells and different parts of your skin, different mini organs in your skin actually makes them more sensitive to androgens. So you may have somebody who, let's say, they don't have PCOS. They don't have elevated androgen levels on, you know, their blood testing or in their urine

or whatever biomarkers you're testing. You don't have elevated levels of androgen necessarily, but because they have a lot of insulin, you know, sort of going on, they're, they may actually present with what looks like a very PCOS kind of situation on their skin, even if they don't. have high levels of androgens. So you may not, you may think you don't have hormonal acne because, oh, I don't have the elevated hormones that would cause hormonal acne, but you're actually getting a really hyperandrogenic response to normal levels of androgens in your skin because of the insulin. So one of the really, really important things when it comes to breakouts is trying to

reduce those glucose spikes that you're, you know, you may experience. so that you can reduce like really high levels of insulin in the body that can then contribute to hormonal breakouts. Obviously it's a balancing act, right? Because insulin's not a bad thing. It's a very good thing. But we don't want to be having too much insulin, especially in the skin, because that's really what can precipitate hormonal acne breakouts, even if you're not dealing with excess male hormones in your body, like you would normally see in things like PCOS. So super important. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. And also like the fungal organics. I don't, is there a such thing as like fungal acne? Is that a thing? So I, that's definitely something

that has made its way in the internet very intensely. And I think it definitely benefits people, whether it's because it's actually addressing fungal acne specifically or whether it's just because that specific approach to treating what looks like fungal acne is actually just beneficial for the skin in general. Who really knows? It's a very, um, there's really not a lot of research on it. But what I will say is I do see fungal acne sort of present, but there's two specific fungal organisms, communities that live on the skin. One is the malicegia, which is the one that gets the most notoriety. It's all over the fungal acne sort of forums and, you know, websites and all of that.

And then there's candida. So you can actually have candida overgrowth on the skin that can cause. It technically is fungal acne, but it doesn't. present in the same way that like a malicegia overgrowth would. So with malicegia overgrowth, what you usually have is comodontal acne that's like lots of like minimally inflamed breakouts that are usually somewhere like on the forehead or on the cheeks. So in like the T zone area where you're going to get the most oil production. And then Candida overgrowth, what I usually see is it happens in the perioral region and around the nose. And it can either look like a lot of

different, you know, like pretty inflamed breakouts that happen around the nose, or you might get sort of like what looks like a rosaceous sort of presentation where it's really flushed in the center area of the face. And that is, that's technically fungal acne, but it wouldn't be considered fungal acne based on like what we see on the internet, but it is a form of fungal acne. And so the interesting thing about fungal acne that I've seen is that, you know, you know, You see things like lipids get a lot of demonization, right? So like they say, any specific fatty acid with a carbon chain length of this much is going to feed maliceae. And so you shouldn't put it on your skin because it's going to cause fungal acne.

And when you actually look at the research on the context of it and how it plays out in the skin as a whole, you might see a completely different picture where something like linoleic acid, let's say, can actually break down the formation of comodones that malicegia causes. So instead of malicegia organisms causing fungal acne, because you're applying linoleic acid to your face, which is something that malicea would feed on, it actually has an opposite effect where it's actually blocking the effects of malicegia

rather than focusing specifically on, you know, oh, well, it shouldn't, you know, we shouldn't put this onto the skin because it'll feed malicea. It's like technically can malicea feed on linoleic acid? Yes, but it can also block all of the effects that malicea causes that would lead to the formation of fungal acne. So there's a lot of context and nuance to be had in the conversation, especially when it comes to the skin microbiome because it's not just one bacteria colony or one fungal colony in isolation. They have a very symbiotic relationship where, for example, if you have really high levels of bacteria, in the skin of the Q2 bacterium acnes bacteria, which is what they say is like the main bacteria that's associated with acne, if you have high levels of that bacteria, you actually you may actually have low levels of malicemia in the skin. So if you're mistaking bacterial acne

for fungal acne and you're trying to kill malicegia, you can actually, malicegia helps keep acne bacteria in check. So, you know, you don't want to necessarily kill one organism and then, you know, not think about any of the others. You know, there's staff bacteria on the skin. There's candida. There's the cutobacterium acne's bacteria. And then there's the malicegia. And they all have a really harmonious balancing relationship. And the goal is to ideally find what is causing the breakouts for you potentially because that might clue you into some imbalances that are going on deeper in the skin that are favoring the overgrowth of that specific microbe in the skin. But ideally we want to look at balancing the skin, you know,

structures. We want to balance the skin physiology. We want to bring it back into homeostasis so that it's not causing one specific organism to overgrow rather than saying, oh, let's target this one bacteria and let's not feed it and let's kill it and, you know, use like certain ingredients that kill malicey or use certain ingredients that kill, you know, staff bacteria, whatever, and really looking at creating an environment that facilitates a balanced growth of all of the different microbes on the skin in harmony with one another to where they don't cause any sort of phenotype or pathology. So it's definitely a context. It can be beneficial for people, for sure. The approach can be beneficial. It can help people get

resolution of symptoms. And as a result, they're less stressed. They're happier in their skin. They feel more confident. Their life becomes, you know, less stressful as a result. But is it necessarily always true, always right in every context? Is it the most balanced, most precision way to support the skin? Probably not. But it all just depends on the person and compliance and what works for them and what they're comfortable with. There's so many different factors to consider. Yeah. I'm thinking about like in the context of the gut and also just in the microbiome in general, we know there's this like dance between the immune system and the microbiome and the immune system like permitting some bacteria or fungal organisms or viruses to

permit like into the system versus like blocking the growth of others and I'm thinking like in the context of this could we think about acne as like being a sign of immune dysregulation a thousand percent in fact that's that's actually what I've been really focusing on in the last six months is really trying to understand that and we actually have a new product that we're finally coming to the end stage of development with and we're getting ready to release it for that exact reason of like what causes people to experience over? overgrowth. Okay, you have, you know, the lipid composition of the skin that facilitates maybe an environment that is less oxygen-rich that certain anaerobic bacteria can flourish in, right? So we consider

that. But you take that balance and you approach that and you treat that and you address that. Why do people still break out? Why does people still need something like a benzoporoxide? Why do people still need something like, you know, an antimicrobial in their skincare routine if you've created the right environment for that not to happen. And that's really where it led me down the path of this idea of immune dysregulation, which is very much present in acne sufferers. So if you have acne-prone skin, they actually have found immune dysfunction where you're the innate immune cells that live within your skin, that regulate the skin microbiome, and that actually support a healthy microbiome diversity while also keeping the microbiome in check in a way that it

doesn't cause any sort of pathology. The immune system is so important. They've actually found that the immune dysregulation is very much present in the skin of acne-prone skin types. And so you have these immune cells that aren't working efficiently. And this can be, obviously, for a myriad of reasons, it can be fat soluble vitamin deficiency, you know, maybe you're a deficient in vitamin A or you're deficient in vitamin D. It can be because maybe you're exposed to mold or, you know, some sort of other initiating event that depleted your immune system. And also one of the kind of interesting, more sort of superficial causes can be just over time. You have acne bacteria that are just sort of living in your skin and they're slowly but surely using up the resources of your immune

system because they're constantly having to contend with this high level of bacteria. So if you have had chronic acne, you might actually need something to sort of restore the immune function of the skin that may have been depleted dealing with elevated levels of bacteria on the skin for long periods of time. And what's super interesting is that if you actually look at some of the antibacterial therapies for acne, I think most of the research has been done around antibiotics, of course, because that's a lot of what Western medicine has looked at in terms of bacteria and acne and how to treat it.

There are actually research studies showing that while there is an antibacterial effect of antibiotics on the skin in the sense of that it has a direct effect on the microbes themselves and the compound and the microbes interface and then the antibiotic will kill, you know, the microbe in question. One of the overlooked very important factors in that antibiotic actually accomplishing the killing of the bacteria is an immune stimulating mechanism. So what they have basically found is that while an antibiotic does kill bacteria, some of the efficacy of the antibiotic is actually dependent on an immune stimulating effect on the skin.

So when we, if you use antibiotics and you see a resolution in acne, it's not just because the antibiotic is killing the microbin question. It's actually because it's stimulating the skin's immune system. And so I was like, oh my goodness, like we, we need to be supporting the skin's immune system. And, you know, it is, it is a fine line to walk, right, because you don't want to stimulate, you know, an immune system to the point where it's aggravating inflammation. Oh, sorry. Are you there? My phone just rang and then it like, yeah. Sorry, my phone just rang and it, it like flashed off. So you have bacteria on the skin that, you know, you want to address. And obviously you don't want to stimulate the immune system too much to where you aggravate inflammation. But at the same

time, it's sort of like, I really love in herbalism the picture of damp stagnation. So you have dampness that is creating heat, but you actually need heat to move the dampness that's creating the heat. So by using a sort of like a gentle warming, heating herb, like ginger or calendula or, you know, those other kind of warming herbs in a very hot tissue state, you're actually moving the dampness that is causing the heat to begin with. And so even though we don't want to stimulate or the skin too much to where it exacerbates the inflammation, some people do actually need like a little bit of gentle immune stimulation to actually clear the stagnation, which I view is like microbial overgrowth and stagnation, different things like that.

And to actually create less heat in the skin. So like gently stimulating the skin in a way that gently stimulates the skin's immune system, gently supports the skin's natural defenses, actually creates an environment that is less hot, less heat, less inflamed. And it's just it's it's something that I was so fascinated by that felt like one of the like the pieces that I was missing in my approach to skin looking at the immune system and and the dysfunction of it and how do we support it in a way that is really beneficial and targeted and not too not too aggressive to the point where you might exacerbate inflammation.

And I think that when it comes to skincare too, it's like looking at that from like even talking about like the energetic, the tissue states in herbalism and especially in Western herbalism, that has really been a really foundational sort of perspective for me to adopt. because when you look at skincare, oftentimes we think in terms of actives and we think in terms of active ingredients and, you know, a lot of times it's just for marketing purposes. We want to say, oh, this product has this ingredient and we don't actually consider the energies and the tissue state of the skin. And so part of what I'm really hoping to do with Sana House is to create not only

skincare products that have really potent, amazing actives. to help create homeostasis in the skin, but also looking at the energetic tissue states of the skin, and how do we create a spectrum of skin care products that help to consider that, you know, aspect of skin healing? Like, you know, maybe one product is more on the cooling side of, you know, helping to cool and inflamed skin, but then maybe having, you know, a different approach for somebody whose skin is maybe needs a little bit more gentle stimulation and warming. And I think that really taking that approach to how we view the skin really delivers much more sustainable, but also much more well-rounded holistic results when it comes to supporting and healing the skin.

Oh my gosh. I love this because I literally just took a lesson earlier today in my course about like antipathy and antipathetic medicine, which is like using opposites to, to find a balance. So like if you have overly hot skin, then using something cooling to bring that heat down, but also the doctrine of similar. So it's like using a small amount of that similar energy to help the body mount its own response to bring a homeostasis into action, which is just so timely. But yes, it's very powerful. Yeah. And that's really, it's such an underappreciated part of skincare because we often, you know, we're very short-sighted and sort of myopic when it comes to how we support the skin. I was always, that was part of my frustration with sort of the both like holistic

and conventional skincare of just like we're not considering, we consider the body in a holistic way, but the skin is somehow exempt from that. And the skin is, is, it works in the same way. It's subject to the same principles of herbal medicine and all of these, you know, the way that we view our world and our bodies in the micro and the macro. And so we're missing a lot of skin healing potential by not considering those things. And I think it's so like we really do have to take those things into consideration. And I love what you said about like the doctrine of simlers and the, you know, the opposites. And I think that there is so much healing to be had in that approach. And it's so simple, too, you know, like it really gives people a lens to view themselves through in a really simple way that

they can go, it can really sort of streamline the healing process and also give them a lot of confidence in knowing there's, it's not just, you know, a bunch of different molecules interfacing. Sometimes you can just also look at it from the energetic perspective of like, you're dealing with too much heat, let's cool it down, or you're dealing with heat because it's, you know, you're stagnant. So let's move things around a little bit. And I find that that is just such a, like, fun, like comforting, fascinating way to look at things and it just makes you even more excited about healing, you know? I agree. It makes it so, it brings some magic back into life, I think the whole herbalism and also the astro astrological approach to herbalism as

well, which I've been learning in the course, of course, and it's just been so fascinating. And I've already been, like, on the, like, astrology train for a while now. I went down the rabbit hole. It was one of my golden threads, like, two and a half years ago, and, like, just kind of grabbed me. And it's been so interesting to see how that now relates to the herbs and, like, different planetary rulers of specific herbs and, like, how to work with the herbs in, you know, certain times of day or certain times of the month or year even. And just brings a whole other level of, like, conscious awareness to the practice of whatever you're doing. And I think the more like consciousness you bring into what you're doing, the more like you infuse it with your own energy and the more potent it can become.

Yeah, I think that like when it comes to healing, there's an inextricable like spiritual component that you like, at least for me, the way that I view things that you can't get away from. So much of my journey and what my life has led me to up until this point has been for healing for more wholeness on a on a physical and a mind level and a spirit level and it's really really difficult to traverse these waters of healing without some sort of spiritual sort of compass that you have to believe you're you're not just running around in circles because it can feel that way sometimes of just like i've done all this research i've looked at everything and nothing's working and but that golden thread through it all is

ultimately leading you to more wholeness and more healing. And, you know, I, I, I think that that's, like, definitely something that I have, has been a huge, like, golden nugget in my journey of, like, all the different supplements that I've tried. And every time I, like, find something that I think is the panacea and I try it and then I realize it's not, it doesn't actually work with my physiology. I go, why am I going around in these circles? But then I find something that I'm like, no, this is good. Like this, this actually makes me understand my body more. This actually makes me understand my daughter more.

This makes me understand my family more, like how to actually customize and tailor my world, my life, my routines, my rituals, my approach to life in a way that actually suits my physiology. And I think one really good example of this is magnesium. I actually found that magnesium glistening. which is a really popular form of magnesium was actually causing me issues and I didn't know it. Interesting. And one of the one of the things that I actually found it through researching different things about my daughter, she was diagnosed with autism, I think a year ago at now this point.

And so I was researching all like the glutamate GABA excitatory inhibitory, like balance situation, found out that glycine can actually be very excitatory in some like situations. and that magnesium glyconee being highly bioavailable to the nervous system is actually like a very potent charged form of glycine that then can be very like excitatory for people who are maybe on the more like excitotoxic end of the spectrum of excitatory and inhibitory. And that was actually actually spurred all of this research about excitotoxicity and in the hypothalamus, how that contributes to hormone. regulation and, oh my God, specifically, like jumbling of my words, specifically in PCOS, that excitatory tissue states can actually facilitate the production of androgens. And looking at excitatory states in the skin that actually exotoxic reactions in the skin, exytotoxic states and the skin actually disrupt the skin barrier and can create a sort of

hypercarotosis state where you're producing too many skin cells and then you produce too many skin cells and then it clogs up you know the sort of areas that may be prone to these those exotoxic states and can create breakouts and dryness and irritation and all these things and so one magnesium glycinate that I found thought it was the panacea for you know the nervous system and maybe part of my healing journey. And it was, but it wasn't because it really, really helped me understand my body more. It was because it helped my understand my daughter more. It was because it helped me understand my skin more. And as a result, I've been able to help a lot of different people who maybe were dealing with magnesium glycinate breakouts that was causing

them breakouts. And they've been able to identify that as a trigger for them. But but also understand their body more. So it's like sometimes we think the end result of what we're going through when we're healing is this one specific thing. Like I'm going to find the thing that heals me. And you are, but not in the way that you think. And that's a really cool part of the journey for me of really understanding that

and traversing the waters of healing. But I could not have done that had I not trusted my path and trusted where God was leading me and trust that ultimately it's from my my good, my benefit and my wholeness. So yeah. Absolutely can totally resonate. And that's also definitely been my experience too where like the more challenging experiences that I've had are the biggest teachers and like the biggest catalyst for my my personal

growth and also my work with other people and in my practice. And like in 2022, yes, 22 April I had COVID for like a month. and then I had post-COVID syndrome histamine stuff and I think a parasite infection too like that summer and the histamine issues were just like crazy and for me it was like magnesium L3 and it was a huge trigger for me and so I went down the rabbit hole on that and like colonurgics and also just like liposomal products in general being kind of contraindicated if there's histamine issues and so I was using a lot of products like that at the time that I just basically like simplified and was barely like I was eating like only a couple of foods and like just being very simple like no stimulants nothing in my life other than just like very simple foods and like getting super strict about

just my health and focusing on my body and not not even exercising too much because that was also giving me histamine response so it was just like walking getting sun just like the bare basics and that was a huge teacher for me and it catalyzed me to make an entire like protocol on antifungal parasite and histamine approaches that's been like purchased by so many people now and like been able to help people as a result of that but it was just like such a testament to like going through the fire and then being able to come out and and then offer that wisdom to people so they don't maybe have to suffer to the same extent that you did. Yeah, no, I mean, and that's amazing. And I love what you said about the liposomal stuff being contraindicated in histamine because that's

also been my experience is my, especially with my daughter, she's very sensitive to, I remember we tried like a popular like multivitamin that's on the market. And part of the formulation is liposomal and she had an instant negative response to it and um and and and i did too and i i'm putting the pieces together now going i was trying for so long to figure out what could it have been that triggered that response because it's all like the right you know methylated b vitamins all the right bioavailable forms of different you know nutrients and minerals and all of that and then it was like oh but i had never considered the liposomes That makes a whole lot of sense.

That's crazy. Your experience is helping me too. I love that. I think it's, so based on my understanding, like the phosphatidyl colin they can use to make the liposomes is colonergic. And colonergics can spur histamine production through some immune mechanism. I'm not exactly sure the mechanism of that. But yeah, they're definitely related. It's the same reason that a lot of people with histamine issues don't tolerate egg yolks either.

Or eggs, it's the yolk part. It's the phosphatidylcholine and the coline that's rich in the yolk. Makes sense. My daughter also, who we've actually, and this is, I hope it's not like an aside or like a tangent, but she, she has definitely like her thing. One of her things is histamine and glutamine and glutamate definitely like go together. So she's very glutamate sensitive and she's very histamine sensitive. And also I am too. I found that out through, you know, just witnessing her and her experience with different things. And one of the things that we were really struggling with was insomnia because histamine and causing insomnia and all of that. And definitely it seems that there are quite a few triggers, but egg yolks seems to be one of them. And that makes a whole lot of sense. So I actually intuitively just started giving her egg whites because I was just like, there's something about the egg yolks that I don't feel is right. And I remember like when I was a little kid too kind of being sensitive to egg yolks as well.

Me too. I thought I didn't like them. Same. Yeah, right? And then I figured out, oh, no, it wasn't that I didn't like them. It was that I didn't like how I felt when I ate them. And it was definitely like I'm thinking back and it's definitely histamine response. And I also had that experience as a child with fermented or not fermented, sorry, cured meats.

So like hot dogs and different things would give me headaches. And I'd be like, why do I get a headache every time I? eat a hot dog. And I just thought I was like, you know, like I would talk to adults about it and they'd be like, oh, no, like it's probably completely unrelated. But I had that like, man, my intuitive relationship with my body when I was a kid was so good. And so I know that like, I've had those experiences as a kid. And I'm like, I trust her intuition about her body. And she is, when I actually started to view her that day and I actually started to allow her intuitive sort of eating to be like permitted, even if it felt like it was maybe like picky eating or whatever, I realize, no, you are actually very in tune with

your body and you know exactly what you need and me trying to get you to eat certain things, you know, for some compliance with, you know, whatever authority in my head says like, this is what's best is actually not helping you. And that's, it's just, another thing of always comes back to relationship and witnessing others and like believing that they do know they have an innate wisdom that they do know what's best for them and like honoring that and also like from that I think we learn so much like when we honor our body's cues when we honor the cues of other people's bodies and go you know let's let's for a moment just practice and just toy with the idea that maybe you actually do have an innate wisdom that's through all of

yourselves and your entire being that knows what you need and maybe like get curious about like what's actually going on here and those moments when I've done that have skyrocketed me in terms of learning in terms of acquiring new knowledge in terms of getting very very specific with the individuality and the nuance around food and nutrition and even skincare in a way that has been so profoundly healing to me and to others that I've come in contact with my community. It's just it is just such the wildest experience. And it rings true with what we know about spirituality of just like love and witnessing other people, honoring other people and, you know, respecting.

the innate wisdom that's within them. It's, if we just did more of that, I think we'd all just be way better off. Yeah. And I mean, the best part is that when you treat yourself and others as if you have that inner guru inside of you that knows, it actually calls forth that knowingness, that being, and that wisdom. So it's like a self-fulfilling prophecy and like a positive feedback mechanism as well. And also the opposite is true. If you treat others like they're cruel, evil or, you know, have ill intentions towards you, then it tends to draw. that out of them too. So everything is like a mirror to a certain extent and it's just our responsibility to, I think, be charitable in the way that we view ourselves and others and just like really

be aligned with like the divinity that we each have within us because ultimately I think that makes the world a more beautiful place and life more enjoyable as well. Totally. I think I've like gotten into this kind of practice for myself where I've started looking at people like not in a, not in a a, not in a negative way, but like looking at people as like children just trying to themselves, you know? Yeah. Like we all, I read, you are, I think, I hope I'm not butchering the title, but you are the one you are looking for, which is internal family systems.

And it really completely changed the way that I view like interactions with people. And it's like, if you can soften yourself to people's sort of protective mechanisms and all of these things and just. recognize that we're both just children who have learned a way of being that may or may not be serving us and we're all just trying to work it out. You navigate life with a lot more compassion for people and like then people start to open up and they start to be less defensive. And I've witnessed this in my own life where things that like conflicts that I was having with people that when I started to take that approach all of a sudden we where we couldn't get to the heart

of the issue where we couldn't hear each other, then taking that approach of looking each other as just children who just want to be, you know, put up defenses and protect ourselves and have safety and security, all of a sudden the walls come down and all of a sudden we can have a conversation about what we're all really deeply feeling inside. And that was the catalyst for so much change in my life, like things that I had been contending with for years that I, like, didn't feel like I was getting a result on and, you know, all of these things that they all of a sudden just started to get a lot easier to navigate and you started to make progress on different things. And yeah, it's just, it's, it's such a mind shift when you look at the world like

that, like you said, the mirror and trying to just be, interact in a way where we're bringing the best out of each other and honoring ourselves and honoring others. And it's amazing what that can do in and of itself, you know, so amazing. Absolutely. And actually, synchronicities abound, but I was just having this conversation with somebody yesterday. Well, two things. Like the one was that I was like to my partner, I was like, do you remember when we were kids and we looked at adults and we thought they had all the answers and everything figured out? And now you're an adult and you're like, everybody's faking it. Yeah. There's that piece. And then I was also having a conversation about this last night with a friend. And I shared with her and it's not something I

necessarily talk about very often. But since I was a kid, there would be times where I would like look at somebody like an adult and like I would just see like a flash of them as a child. And it's like happened my entire life. And it was something that I literally would gaslight myself and be like, I'm just seeing things or whatever. But ever since I started actually, whenever I have weird occurrences like that or like abnormal things happening instead of just telling myself, myself that it was just like, you know, I was seeing things or whatever like that. Instead, I take it very seriously, and it becomes like this just a very interesting thread to explore, because I feel like we all have like buoyances and powers that are just kind of

waiting to be manifest. And the more we take those seriously, I think the more we also can spur our own evolution and our growth in this lifetime. And also, again, just coming back to like the magic in life, there's so much magic. And I think it can become very easy to just get kind of burned out in the way that modern society is running but if we can get back to that just like just just the the awe-inspiring nature of what it means to be alive it's just so so potent and powerful and just inspires so much passion and just makes you want to go out and like learn and explore and be in a relationship and all the things yeah

yeah for sure and I think like a really big part of that for me you know and I think that one of the roadblocks that I identified for myself is like if you don't believe that the guiding force, you know, whether you believe that to be God or, you know, whatever, for me, realizing that God is benevolent, that God is kind, that God is good-natured is what allowed me to soften into not only realizing that a child with defense mechanisms that I've made for myself to keep myself safe, but that it's also okay for me to tap into what that you know what that child wants what that inner child needs what you know of course like in balance right because also you can go off the rails a little bit but really understanding the fundamental nature

of our existence of a creator of you know whatever you want to call it the divine is such a key part in accessing that part of ourselves where we can bring down our defenses and let go of the things that we think are creating safety and security for us, you know, whether that be, you know, barriers that we have between, you know, partners or friends or family or, you know, constructs that we've created for ourselves in our lives that, you know, we think are serving us, but are actually taking us, they're actually not rooted, rooted and grounded in our authentic being and what we're here to do on the earth. I think when you start to understand the fundamental nature of the creator of God, of the divine, then you really do start to soften into your authenticity. You let go of things

and vices and habits and even constructs and, you know, good things that society look at as good that are actually not what you're supposed to be doing, what the path that you're supposed to be on. And that was such a huge shift for me and the journey that I've been on the last year of just understanding that and like relaxing and resting into that. And it's such a fundamental thing that has changed my nervous system. It's changed the way I navigate relationships. It's changed, you know, the way that I look at people and how cool that you have been able to like have those moments where like it's so speaks to.

the intention of the creator or the intention of God or the divine to like for you to see people for who they really are you know what I mean? Yeah. To have those moments where you're being given a message of like this is what this person, this is who this person really is and this is their true authentic self. Like that cuts through all the noise. It cuts through all the, you know, well, they need to do this or they need to be this person or they need to do that or they should be doing this and it cuts right through all of that and goes,

yeah, but they're this person and we're just navigating life together and we're all doing the best we can. And I really do believe that is the heart of the creator. That's the heart of God to see all of us that way and to just care and love us in that raw, real, authentic, you know, and very fragile, vulnerable state. You know, so to have those experiences in life, not only is that so incredible, but it just so is such like evidence and speaks to the heart of God and the creator

and the divine of just like what the intention is, what, you know, how we should kind of like at a viewpoint that maybe we should consider adopting when it comes to how we navigate. the world that we live in, you know? So cool. I love that so much. Sophia, I love you. I only just started to get to know you, but I feel so connected to you. Maybe we should wrap it up. I think we should do another one though, because I feel like we could go on a bunch of other tangents too related to different topics and science and things that you're interested in. I know you were talking about

reverse osmosis lately on your Instagram, so it would be nice to explore that to see if other people have shared resonance with that. But for now, maybe Maybe you can share where people can find you and where they can find your products. And I'll, of course, link to everything. But just so people can get an idea of where to come find you and look at your wonderful website and your products. Oh, thank you. Thank you. Yeah, no, for sure.

So I have my company, which is sauna house. sauna house.com is where you can find all of the skincare goodies. But also I do a lot of, I try to do, I'm not like super active all the time, but I do a lot of education just like in blogs and my musings. writings. And then I have my Instagram, which is Well by Sophia, and I just kind of kind of do whatever. I'm still trying to navigate the social media space. And I think I've had like a lot of like identity shifts over the last four years. I'm still trying to find like my place and, you know, like my identity and in social media and how I navigate it. But I share a few tidbits here and there on there. You're doing a great job. You're being modest.

Thank you. That's one part of my life that I am really having to like hone in on and like contextualize and understand. But yeah, it's in flux. I totally feel that too. I mean, I feel like I've been like an exponential growth phase also on social media and it's a lot to get accustomed to and try to understand what's happening at some level. I just need to like surrender, show up consistently and just trust that that will take. me where I need to go and making amazing connections with you and like with Olivia and other amazing new friends that I've made. It just makes it all so fun and makes it all totally worth it too despite some of the toxicity that can be on social media. My net experience has been like very largely positive. Yeah. Mine too for sure. Yeah. And I mean, you're doing amazing stuff. I mean, the level of like research that you're doing and like all of the I love finding people that have like this niche knowledge that like they take like topics and they hone in on them and then they just like zoom out to the bigger picture and like and then all of a sudden like there's context and

nuance and you know individuality and you know that we can kind of like assimilate and apply to our own lives and that's what I like have found that's the journey I found myself on so to find you which I saw your your podcast with Olivia and I was like oh my gosh like this girl is amazing and I just love all the information that you share I think it's very, very cool. And I'm honored to be on your podcast. Thank you for inviting me. It's my pleasure. And everybody who will be listening, who will be their pleasure too. This was an incredible episode. And thank you so much for your generous with your, so generous with your time and probably put this up pretty soon because I don't think, you know, there's any need to

wait. This will probably be the episode for this week. So I'll let you know when it's posted. But for everybody who listened, I hope you enjoyed this. Go give her a follow. I'm going to link to everywhere you can find her in the show notes so that you can check her out. And with that, we'll hopefully have you back on again soon.