Undoctrinate Yourself - #22 - Scott Chaverri (Mito Red)

Episode Date: March 12, 2025

Scott Chaverri is the founder of Mito Red: a company that creates state-of-the-art red + infrared light devices for home use.Find Mito Red on instagram ⁠@mitoredlightofficial⁠⁠Purchase your own Mito Red light panels and use the code DRALEXIS to save: http://www.mitoredlight.com/?afmc=1qcFollow the podcast on Instagram ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠@undoctrinateyourselfpod⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Follow Dr. Alexis on Instagram ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠@dralexisjazmyn⁠⁠

Hello, everyone and welcome back to Undoctrinate Yourself. Today, I have the pleasure of speaking with Scott Chevery, the founder of Mido Red, which are the brand of red light panels that I've just been swearing by for over two years now. So I'm really excited to finally be sitting down to have a chat with him about the technology and what's motivated him to start this company and really help people in this way to optimize their light environment. So first of all, welcome, Scott, and thanks for coming on. Thank you for adding. My pleasure. So maybe we can just get started by talking a little bit. bit about how you got into the red light business what motivated you i think it's i mean it's definitely gaining steam now but it's pretty niche area so i'd love to hear how that even began but uh i guess there's a lot of confluence of events i mean i would say like it start it really starts with my thinking about the ancestral environment right and uh and i think uh so much of uh what i do uh in my day-to-day life to try to optimize myself and my own health is is viewed through that that prism, no pun intended.

And so I would say like the origin story could even go back to when I was in college, I was studying psychology at Cornell in the 90s. And I was thinking, I just had this aha moment, a lipo moment where I was just like, well, I wonder if mental illness, like the root cause of all mental illness is just the disconnect between our ancestral environment and our modern environment. Right. So I had this idiot, you know, this idea as an idiot 20-year-old kid. But it really stuck with me that I was probably right about that in some sense.

But the funny thing is I had massive gaps about other things. So diet and other environmental factors and how they were impacting our physical health and spiritual and emotional, right? So I was very unhealthy in the 20 in my 20s and I had really bad insomnia. That was probably one of the worst things. So I was definitely one of those people that lived on the – caffeine, alcohol, and seesaw. And it was just not healthy. And I just, I tried everything.

I tried every pharmacological solution for insomnia that you can think of. Even, you know, obviously drinking, but NyQuil, melatonin, sleepy time, tea, chamomile tea, you name it. Like if there was something I could swallow that I thought would help, I tried it. And nothing, nothing helped. And I just, I just, eventually I just sort of gave up. And I just chalked it up that I was just that type of person, have an overactive mind,

you rationalize these things, right? I just must be the type of person that, you know, my mind is too active and I just have trouble with wanting to sleep. And then somewhere along the way I got, I was learning, listening to podcasts, somebody mentioned lighting at night and how, you know, maybe you don't want to be exposed to blue or green light at night.

And I was like, oh, that's interesting. And so I bought an $8 pair of laser glasses from Amazon since probably like 12 years ago. And lo and behold, I could sleep. It was pretty amazing. Wow. And just total game changer, right? And actually, it's just so crazy to me because it's such a simple thing.

I really changed my life because, you know, I'm that type of person if I don't sleep well, I'm kind of bored with. And that was essentially me for, you know, over a decade. Wow. And then finally, I solved that problem. and it really got me interested in the light in general, right? Like, so it's like, okay, so wait a minute. So it's so obvious in retrospect, right?

All these bright lights at night, probably not the best thing, and then certain weight length. And so I went down the rabbit hole of learning a lot more about light. And then I stumbled upon red and ear infrared light and started to learn about, hey, these are actually quite beneficial. And then from an ancestral perspective, again, because we're spending so much time indoors, my view is that we're incredibly deficient in these wavelengths,

these beneficial wavelengths of life. So that kind of brings a full circle. Maybe I went back a little too far in terms of the history. But I do, you know, I think it started for me in college, just having this kind of realization that our modern life is very different than the environment we evolved in. And it's kind of grown from there. I love that.

And it's so true. I think it's really helpful to think about, different wavelengths of light as nutrients in their own right, because when we do think about it that way, it becomes very clear that we're basically overdosing on blue light and we're, like, vastly deficient in red and infrared light, which for the listeners, like, if they don't know, like sunlight throughout the day is very enriched in red infrared light, like around sunrise and sunset. It's almost exclusively red and infrared light. Midday sun is still over 50% red and infrared light. And so in the ancestral environment where we're living outdoors, we're going to be exposed to

those long wavelengths of light all day, every day, even when it's cloudy. And so the very stark difference between that more outdoor ancestral lifestyle versus the indoor modern lifestyles that we have just by virtue of being behind glass, we're already losing a decent portion of the near infrared part of the spectrum. And then we add also the artificial lights on top of that that are adding in like the very isolated blue wavelengths that are very stimulating to the brain, the nervous system, suppressing melatonin release, and also potentially harming mitochondria because that blue light is supposed to be encountered with red and infrared light, and it's not happening when we're, you know, living a more indoor lifestyle. So I think it's so important and great that you came upon that.

Also ahead of the curve, I would say, because, I mean, as it's picked up now, but you've been, you know, interested in this type of thing for over a decade at this point. Yes. And then I was, I think, so I'm 48, I'll be 40. in a couple weeks. And I think right around, as I was getting close to 40, I was worried about testosterone, sort of worried about my testosterone falling. And I had read a couple of things,

and now, you know, right in there for my potentially being beneficial, if you used, you know, on the crown jewels. So I did an experiment there. I mean, that was actually one of my early experiments. Didn't work, actually. So in full disclosure, I think that that's, hormones are tricky, like a whole other discussion. But the reality is that, as you said, our ancestors would have been outside getting exposed

this pretty much all day long. And I do, I'm super biased, but I do think that when people tend to think about light deficiency, they tend to immediately think vitamin D. But, you know, UV is only about 7% of the solar spectrum, and it's only available at certain very narrow parts of the day. And even in your latitude, it's, you know, depending on where you are, you're not going to get a whole lot of it. I mean, in New Jersey, I mean,

pretty much between December and February or even November, February, probably not going to get much of any UVV to make vitamin D, right? So I would say on balance, if you're sunlight deficient, on balance, you're much more infrared deficient, right?

And we should be thinking more like that because the infrared is available all day, and our ancestors would be bathing in it all day, and now because you're inside, you're massively missing that. Whereas the UV, yes, That's important too, but on balance, like the deficiency to me is much or as much worse with respect to the infrared because you would be getting it all day in an incestial environment and you don't. Yeah.

So from that perspective, I think it makes so much sense to supplement. I mean, obviously I would say go outside. So I spend as much time, it looks like you're outside. And on a nice green grass, by the way, which is one of the things that I suggest because near infrared reflects off of green. So even if you don't, if you're worried about photo aging of the skin, fine, it should sit in a shaded area, but like in a green area. And the neuroinfred would literally bounce off the ground and reflect up onto your body. That's one way you can kind of hack it if you're worried about photo aging and the skin. Amazing. And I always like to bring up also with people who are concerned about photo aging and hyperpigmentation that there's a robust literature showing that blue light is very stimulating to melanocytes.

So like just avoiding the sun and then going inside and living your life, you know, under artificial lights is also not a solution because that's also going to cause issues as it relates to mitochondrial function on the surfaces of the eyes, the skin. And so it's important to be mindful of that as well. And we know that the red and infrared light can balance out some of those more, let's say, damaging effects on mitochondria that blue wavelength light can create. And I also want to mention, too, because I think it's so true that the red and infrared light, light deficiency that we're experiencing as a populace in the modern day is really important to think about. And actually, when I'm about to, well, within the next year, hopefully, start my lab. It's going to be a light research lab. And one of the foremost things that I really want to study is I want to find a biomarker for red and or infrared light exposure. And I just think that would be incredible

because we have this like vitamin D as a biomarker for UVB light. But if we could get also a biomarker for red and infrared, I think it could really help motivate people to, you know, if we're going to, you know, if we're going to measure it, like, okay, you can, you know, you need to add this much more red infrared light into your life. Could be a cool way to help motivate people to do that. That would be amazing. I love that you're thinking about doing that. And I would totally be open to supporting you in those effort.

That would be awesome to collaborate on that. Because, yes, I was, it's funny. I was just thinking about that because, you know, vitamin D deficiency. So what I say to people is vitamin D deficiency is a, it's really a proxy for sunlight deficiency. Like that's how we should be thinking about it, not just thinking about this one metric on a lab test. Telling your body is telling you, you need to be getting more sun. It is theoretically possible to get plenty of red and infrared light and still be vitamin D deficient. You know, if you spent all, you know, 7 a.m. to 10 a.m.

and maybe 3 p.m. to 6 p.m. outside. I mean, spent many, many hours outside, but just happened never to be outside, you know, midday during the summer, then yes, theoretically. So it's not the best proxy for a near-and-near red light deficiency. I was just, you know, thinking about that, but it is a proxy. Yeah. But most likely if you're super vitamin D deficients, because you're just not outside at all. And but so, yes, if we could identify something that was a little bit a better marker, that would be amazing. And then also potentially measure the impact of some.

supplementing with devices like ours or even just changing your lifestyle habit but trying to spend more time outside, either in a shaded area on some green grass or just spending more time outside when your shadow is longer than you are, which is kind of the old adage. Yeah. Again, if you're concerned about the UV. Yeah, absolutely. So I want to talk about red infrared light dosing. But first, maybe let's circle back to the. of mito-red and like how you went about designing your, you know, your first, let's say, prototype or like building out the product to begin with, how you were selective of like specific

wavelengths and, like, intensity of the light. And maybe we can also touch on like Flickr and EMF too, because I know that's something that's variable throughout the industry. Sure. So I would say the origin story back 2018, as was if I was a user, like I said, I was solving for trying to solve the testosterone and just realized that they were they need to supplement red and near-fred light. And just the options were very expensive. So the initial kind of product development pipeline was more of how do I just build a no frills, very powerful red and near-infrette light that it just is good value to the end user and,

you know, as measured by watts per dollar spent, this kind of how I think about it. with jewels per dollar spent, which is, jewels is just a box per second. And so that was really the origin. And, and, you know, we, originally we just used kind of the standard, quote, quote, standard wavelengths that you'll find, which are 660 nanometer red and 850 nanometer near infrared.

Now, we quickly, well, we're pretty quickly moved away from that. I don't know away from it, but we started adding more wavelengths, because as I learned more about kind of the history of the industry, I realized that in my view, the reason those wavelengths are used is because of not necessarily because of any specific scientific reason, but just because those LEDs were available. They were used in other industry. So I think the 660s were used in growlites,

and the 850s are used in the security camera industry. So, you know, so if you're, if you're there and you want to build a red and near-infred light panel, obviously you're going to get LEDs that you can source, you know, that are available in the existing supply chains. And so that's a good place to start. But then I came across a paper in 2019 and 2020, no, 2019, late night. And it was a 2008 paper by a Russian scientist, Tina Carew. She's amazing. Okay.

So, so, so then you're aware of the paper. Yeah. talking about the peak action spectra for a cytokumcyokase. And so that kind of drove the first version of the mitro pro where we added in 630 nanometer, 830 nanometer. It just made sense to me to try and target the peak action spectre a little better, a little bit more precisely. And then also just from a philosophical standpoint,

just maybe spreading the energy out a little bit. you know, when I think, when I think of how we can mimic nature, I think mimicking nature is usually going to be a good idea. And so just having this, these two peak, two kind of disparate peaks within kind of the optical window, I said, why don't we try to spread it out a little bit? And we'll hit a couple of the other peak action spectra for the promo four that identified as, you know, being one of the primary mechanisms of action. It just seemed very logical. So that's what we did. That makes sense.

And what about from like an intensity standpoint? So I don't know much about like the electrical engineering behind these light panels. But if you want to shed some light on this, so to speak, about like how like across the industry is there variation and like the dose per unit time of different panels and how like yours compared to something like Jove or something like that. So there's a couple of things. I think so you're, I think ultimately, well, it's really nice. Ultimately, what you're trying to solve for, if you're trying to build a good light device or a light therapy device, is something that's super safe, but something that's delivering a certain amount of light at a certain distance to the user in a reasonable amount

of time, right? So these are the constraints. And so most of the devices have, you know, an LED chip underneath a focusing lens, and focusing lens just focuses the light out toward the user. Usually the focusing lens is 30 degrees, 60 degrees, 90 degrees. And that, in a of itself isn't super important, but it will dictate some other design characteristics within like a panel. And so what we saw for is something that even if you were super close is still within a safe power, but that's something that at a comfortable distance, say, 6, 12, 18 inches, still delivering a certain milliwatts per centimeter squared or certain joules per centumet squared, that where you can

get a decent dose in a reasonable amount of time. So just to put some numbers around that, I would say generally at the usage distance, you want to be somewhere between 10 kilowatts per square centimeter to about 100 milawatts per square centimeter. I think all the research in animals and humans, that's a effective range, like power, but it's also super safe. Like, you don't start worrying about overheating until you get to, like, 300 middlewashed. So we're still below, well below, like, kind of like the safety concern. And then even, like, I've had our devices measured it, like, at one inch and, like, right in front of the most powerful LAD we use, and it's about 180. So even if you accidentally were too close, we don't recommend being that close, we recommend 6 to 18 inches.

But if you're super close, let's say you fell asleep or something. you know, you're probably going to be fine. And actually, I had that happen once where a customer fell asleep for four hours. This is in our Gen 1 devices where we didn't have timers. I was like, oh, no, you know, my face was a little puffy. And I was just, I couldn't believe that somebody could fall asleep with these lights are so bright. Like, there's no way, even though they are red and near for it, just because they're so bright. But so four hours fell asleep and, you know, she said her face was puffy and it wasn't too bad.

But that actually did spur me to just eliminate those panels and now all over a panel of timers. So that can't possibly happen. The longest you can go is 20 minutes when interrupted and then turn off. So, you know, I'm constantly thinking about, is there anything we do to make it even safer, even though it is quite safe, right? So the power density between 10 kilowatts and 100, and I think you'll find varying degrees out there. I think, like, you probably have a mito pro. that panel is in 70s at 6 inches, so it's pretty high.

And then other devices that tend to not be that high, we tend to be in the higher range, but you'll usually find if it's a good panel that has active cooling, which is one of the ways you can know. If it doesn't have active cooling, it's probably not that powerful. Because when you start building these lights and they're putting out a lot of light, they need to be actively. So if it doesn't have a fan, it's probably not, I just wouldn't recommend it. generally. So, but usually they'll be actively cooled anywhere between 30 and 70.

And it's, it's gotten so much better since we started. Like, it used to be all over the place. And I'd like to think that companies like ours and other good companies that feel with good devices have kind of pulled everybody up. Mm-hmm. You know, and we're playing more in that 50 to 70 mil-a-law range, which I think is a good range to be in. Great. And so where does, like, Flickr and DMF come into the story? So I know certain companies, not to like bast you, but like I've heard that when tested, their EMF is quite high and also their flicker is quite high.

So from an engineering perspective, what did you guys do to solve for that problem? And how was it even on your radar to think about those things to begin with? Because I feel like a lot of that science, although it can be good quality science, is considered like fringe in some way. So it's great that that was a consideration when you were building out your devices. Two things. The EMF was definitely on the radar, even before I started the company, one of those weird people, that doesn't have pipe buying the towels. I turn off the electric to my bedrooms when I sleep at night.

I've been doing all that strange stuff for a long time. Again, it's also aligned, again, with my ancestral view that just weren't exposed to these things. And so if there's easy, low or no cost things that I can do to eliminate them, then why wouldn't I do? And so same thing with EMF. I mean, it's actually not hard. that you did a lot of the EMF that's created even like in the wiring in our in our homes.

It's just you got wires that are coming apart or just or crossing unnecessarily, you know, and they're creating a field and magnetic field between them. And so if you're wiring this clean inside the device and thought out, a lot of that goes away or just moving the drive, which is going to be the primary source, you know, to the back of the device or to the bottom or to the top, little thing, right? And so, you know, and so I'm very mindful of EMF, and then even the, we do have an app on some of our new devices, but if you want to, you can disable the Bluetooth and it won't transmit. If that's, you know, I am kind of one of those people that would probably do that, although I do like use the app occasionally, but, you know, I just turn it on and off.

This way it's not broadcasting the whole time, you know, because a lot of devices that we have around us that have Bluetooth, they are, they are broadcasting, even if you're not actively using them. And so that's the EMF story. It's actually not that hard. And actually our ADAPS series, we even improved and we use a shielded power cable. So there's no measurable electric field on the cable. So I've done everything that I know to do from an engineering standpoint to minimize that. Because again, that's something that I do in my daily life. So I'm building devices that I would use, right?

If I wouldn't use it, then I can't bring it to market. Now, the Flickr is a different story. So when we started, I didn't do anything about Flickr because I was skeptical that it was really much of an issue. And kind of my thought about Flickr is, so for folks that don't know what Flickr is, it's just the change in the intensity and amplitude of the light at a certain duration. So it's really an artifact of alternating current. And so, you know, we have these LED lights or fluorescent lights around us. And actually, it's more of an issue now because of LEDs on fluorescence.

It really wasn't an issue when we used naked depth. Yep. It was those light up from heating a filament. So even the alternating current turning on and off, the dissipation of the heat and it really muted the effects of that. But LEDs, they literally turn right on and off. So there is a flicker of the light. And it's usually 100% amplitude with the other. And so the idea is that these screens that we look at are these LEDs that were

slight that were exposed to all day long is turning on and off imperceptibly. And it's just a subtle stress, particularly to the eyes, right? And I 100% agree with that. And also, I think we've all sensed it. Like if you've ever gone someplace where they have fluorescent lights and you spend a lot of time there, me personally, I start to feel like crap. And so like there's something going on there. And I think it's just the stress to the eye.

Also, interesting story. I had a quick sideboard, but I had eye surgery, elective eye surgery a year ago. And it was essentially cataracted. I had a lens put in. I have had bad vision in my right eyes and stirred right. And I was like, you know what? I'm going to do something about that. And I had complications from the surgery.

So I probably shouldn't have gone into it so lightly. but when I went into a store that had fluorescent lighting, the eye as it was recovering just did not like it at all. Like it was just that stress because my eye was compromise was so much more exaggerated. Wow. I was only comfortable outside in sunlight. That's the only time that I could actually kind of relax.

It was actually very thoughtful a couple of weeks as I was healing from that and I was worried that it was going to not go away. But I noticed a huge difference between being out and outside. the sun and then being inside the store that had the fluorescent light where I literally had to turn around and walk out because I'm assuming the flicker stress that eye was just too much. So anyways, flicker is definitely an issue. Now, but so, but what I would say is I don't know how much of an issue it is in red light therapy devices where you're using it for an acute short period of time with your eyes closed typically or glass of on. And so,

that's why initially I didn't really solve for it. Having said that, as a business person, I believe in listening to our customers. And so our customers were asking about it. And again, just like with EMF, there's very easy things you can do. You just use a special drive that neutralizes the alternate current, essentially, and you can eliminate it. And so, and it's a very low cost change. So, so. Great. Nice. Yeah, I personally am very, I'm very, sensitive to flicker, I always notice it. And whenever I'm with people who are like, I don't know what you're talking about. I just pull out my iPhone and put it on slow-mo mode. I'll film the light and then I'll show them like, look and you can literally see it flashing. Some lights are way worse than others. Like some Christmas lights are like that or like, you know, just LED and fluorescent bulbs like you said. And even when fluorescent bulbs start dying, they start like spinning. Like that's kind of, I feel like that's what's happening. Actually, when they're working, it's just happening so fast. You can't really see it until it starts dying. So it's definitely. It's definitely. a thing and I think there's certainly an aspect of like nervous system dysregulation or sympathetic drive that comes along with Flickr that you know a lot of

people may you know experience anxiety or or feelings of unrest and may not realize that it could be literally from the lights that they're surrounding because because like the sun is operating on DC current and and nature runs on DC current like our mitochondria are powering ourselves via DC current and the entire grid is AC and that's reflected at the level of like the lights and the flickering process and also the EMFs. So I think it's an interesting choice that was made back in the day with regards to choosing between an AC and DC power grid. From my understanding, the major thing was that you can scale an AC power grid much more readily

than a DC grid. But, you know, interesting from a biological perspective, because there wasn't that insight back in the day about DC currents and biology and the potential harms that could come from AC EMFs, essentially. Yes, my understanding is that you can just send AC much further distances, right? So there's scalability. I think the nice thing is that there's things I kind of liken it. There's things you can do like when it gets to your home to clean it up.

You know, we have a, like, the power perfect box in our home, which at least cleans the dirty current up as it gets into the home. I think of it just like putting a whole house water filter. You know, maybe you take out some of the chlorine and some of the impurities in the water as it gets to your home, so all the fall off the cup of water. Same type of thing. We have this installed right at the box and it cleans the power that circulates in our home. I mean, it's obviously still AC current. But there are things you can do in the devices like what we did to mitigate that as well. So, and there's also things I think HACCH you can do.

I have two different lights that I use. That is, I have a halogen kind of a yellow bulb, actually. so it looks, I call it my little son. And that's obviously that's not flickering. And then I have a battery powered red light too that I use off the side of my screen here. And I think it just helps a little bit, but just kind of washing out some of the flicker that's coming off the screen. So there's little things like that. And I think that it's actually a big opportunity. Like the ambient lighting space is a huge opportunity because right now it's terrible.

right so we have to redo the whole ambient lighting industry and make it more conducive to our biology it's on my roadmap but i've already got a lot of ideas and i'm actually meeting with an engineer tonight to kind of like some of these things because because look at how i'm solving my own problem you know i have a couple of things and i and you know even the internal lighting we use in our office here sucks and i'm like there's got to be a better way and and if i can't find it then maybe i should just building. Yeah, that's amazing. I think maybe just for the listeners, anything that's battery powered is going to naturally be a DC current because it's basically directly powering the thing. It's not plugged into the wall into the grid. So it's great to have like the battery powered lights.

I have a few as well. I also have like your handheld red light panel. So that's obviously running on battery as well. Can you mention again the block like the box or the block that you have by your like your power in your house? What is that called? Well, the power perfect box. It's a company called Satik USA, I think, in Montana. Okay. And it's measurable. You know, they have these dirty electricity meters that you can put into your outlets. And, you know, you put the box on.

And also, actually, it does a couple of things. I mean, it cleans the dirty electricity. It's, which actually your electronics should run much smoother, right? Because there's less bikes in the current. And so they should last longer. And also should lower your utility. usage too, right? Because it's just inefficient when you've got all that noise. So, so, and, but I, my primary reason was kind of the health benefit and I had read, I'm concerned about just

exposure to all of this, uh, non-native EMF. And so, uh, and then dirty current in particular, which has been implicated as being worse for you than even just, you know, cleaner current, which kind of makes sense intuitively. So, so we, uh, we installed that. And I, I've known those guys for like six or seven years. That's amazing. I would love to get. one of those, if maybe you can connect me with them. I'd love to chat with them, maybe have them on the podcast, too. I think it's a really important problem. Also, with the advent of the smart meters, which makes everything worse from what I understand, because I don't know if it's the way the wires are connecting to the meter or what's going on there that's increasing the amount of EMF

that they're liberating. Do you know anything about that? A little. I do believe that when the thing with smart meters is that there's all different kinds. And some of them, you know, transmitted on a regular basis, and some of them might transmit only maybe once or twice a day to like a collection meter. So it really depends like, you know, do you have one of the bad smart meters? And then there's also different powered smart meters, like I think one watt or three watt. But if they're transmitting regularly, I think that actually the act of transmission could be dirtying the current in your home.

So there's been more reason to get one of these. And I like it because, again, it's doing it right. And most of the dirty current comes from the grid, actually. And I live in Arizona. So, you know, especially in the summer, whenever. everyone's running their air conditioner nonstop because 110. You know, and you got all this drain on the grid and, like, it gets much worse. So cleaning it at the, because they have filters that you can put into the outlets.

I have mixed feelings about those and because of how they work, you know, the rabbit hole. So I like the idea of just cleaning it right at the box as it comes in from the grid. And to me, it solves like 90% of the issue. I mean, you might, like if you, you can dirty the current within your own home, like when you run the dish, dishwasher or run like the washing machine like a high uh something that's drawing a lot of current like and it's it can also dirty but that's no that's tertiary it's temporary right you're not you're not running the dishwasher all day or you're not doing laundry all day hopefully so uh so to me cleaning at the at the box makes the most sense yeah absolutely and also with like the washing machine or the dishwasher also

goes back to like just getting a good electrician because uh i think jump conduction can happen if things aren't wired correctly and that can increase issues as well. And I also wanted to remember to add for the listeners, I'm not sure if you're familiar with it, but like Iris, which is like a software for your computer, it's, you can find them at www. irisTech.co. That's like a software that will remove Flickr from your computer and then also will like reduce blue light throughout the day. So it's going to naturally be more red enriched into the evening hours to help protect your eyes and your mail ton and system. And so that can be a great solution for people if they're looking to, you know, if they're on computers a lot, that can be a really good way to help minimize flicker and blue light as well.

And also just protect from like feelings of burnout and like eye strain too. I found that like I can be on screens much longer if I'm filtering out some of the blue light and the flicker as well. We have, we have Iris on every computer here. Our company. Amazing. Because, you know, and that's like the first thing I do. And actually, you know, we're a small company who only have 10 employees, so I am the IT department.

Which is kind of scary because I'm not, I'm not super tech efficient type of guy. But it's the first thing I do when we buy a computer, I upload the firewall, you know, security software, and then the next thing I do is install IRS. Because I know if when I, just the strain personally, and I also wear, you know, filtering glasses too occasionally. And I, if you haven't tried these, you really should.

Because for me, even with Iris, when I put these on, just my face and my eyes just relax. Mm-hmm. So huge, you know, huge different, just filtering out that extra layer of blue. But yes, a big fan of virus. And I also just like just how, you know, it's 1499, I think, for like lifetime license. So it's nothing. And it's super flexible.

You know, you can go in and change it and you get different settings, very customizable. Obviously, you know, if you need to, like, we're doing something creative, we need to turn it off we can, but then we, you know, because we want to see the full range of color. We're doing something for marketing or whatever, but then when we're done, then we'll turn it back on and protect the ride. Yeah, it's great to have that flexibility and it's really easy to use and very affordable too. So I think it's something that's like a total no-brainer. Do you want to dive into some with like the benefits of red light therapy? So I mean, you mentioned potential links to hormone

health, though it's more complicated than that. Can we talk about maybe like skin or wound healing or other things that you think are really interesting that are either emerging in the space or even research that's already been done? Yeah. Well, what I would say is, you know, the primary mechanism, there are several mechanisms, but the primary is just helping the mitochondria make energy. And it does that, you know, seems the leading prevailing theory is that it's modulated from cytokin from see oxidase.

And so there's over 7,000 studies. and I don't know if you're familiar with the database, the research database, but if you're not, I will definitely get it over to you. No. Oh, you're going to love it. You're going to love it. So it is a giant spreadsheet of over 7,000 in counting studies that have been done in photo biomodulation, and it's all sorted.

You can sort by what is, you know, were they studying the brain? Are they studying bone? What are they studying? What are they studying? Skin. and then, you know, what wavelengths they use, what power density was, and whether it was positive negative. I mean, it's all super. So if you, you know, when we, for our blog, we write articles just generally on science and studies that have done.

It's such an amazing resource. If I want to go and look at paragraph, you know, it's probably going to be a pyramid, I know, and there's just treasure trove. And so he's an sort of doing. That's amazing. quick snapshot of this research. So, let's get back to the mechanisms. Because it works at the level of the mitochondria, in theory,

if a cell has mitochondria, then it can potentially benefit. And so that's why there are over 7,000 studies looking at so many different applications, whether it's hair growth, wound healing, or skin, or inflammation, and pain. I mean, so many things, right? So brain health is actually, I think, interesting.

You know, we just came out with a brain helmet. It was originally discovered in the 60s by a Hungarian scientist who was trying to replicate a laser study on mice. I don't know if you know the origin story, but what he did is, you know, they give these, he was a skin cancer study. So, you know, they shave these four mice and then they implant skin cancer into them. and then he hit the tumors with the red laser. And the laser was very underpowered, so it didn't really do anything to the tumors.

But he noticed or he observed that the wounds healed faster and that the mice, the hair grew back then. And so they've known about hair growth since the beginning. And so now there are a lot of great devices on the market. I mean, it's really amazing to see just the innovator. and how quickly it happens, but there are a lot of really good high-quality hair laser helmets on the market, which, you know, very, very well studied to show help with hair growth. That's amazing.

I mean, that's pretty mature. I would say in terms of, like, and skin health is another one, like super mature. I mean, they've used red and near-ford light have been used in estheticians and dermatology offices for a long time. and now there's a lot of masks. A lot of people are using masks for skin and health. So that's also very well proven, established. I think for me, what gets exciting is the brain,

because we've got seemingly this epidemic of neurodegenerative illness. And, you know, if there's a way that we could use light to help with that, that would be fantastic. Now, the challenge is getting the light through the skin. skull, obviously, so like delivering it. And so, you know, there's a, there's a company called V-Light who has just been Health Canada approved. And they, they have a very, a couple very bright LEDs they use on the skull, but they also

have a light that they shine up the nose, the bypass, the bypass, the skull. I just got one. Okay, fantastic, fantastic. So, like, that's really interesting. And we actually, so we actually just launched our own intranasal. And we donated 100 units to study for a long COVID study. Nice. Scientists reach out to us.

I don't know. What happened? We just don't need the unit. By the way, I will just say if any scientists are listening to this, and you have, if you need devices for any sort of study, please contact me. And we really want to support that. You know, and for us, it's easy, easy to donate units. Not easy to fund massive multi-million dollar studies, but it is easy.

easy to donate devices for studies if you, if that's what you need. And so please go free to reach out to me. And as you're building out your lab, if you need anything, or even if you need me to custom build something, I'd be very old. Oh, that would be incredible. Because to me, it's all fun, right? And if you're going to learn more about, well, about human physiology, biophysiology, and how to build better devices, it's win, win, win.

That's true. Yeah, I'm really excited about the potential there. and for the brain. So actually, as it relates to, like, getting through the skull, do we have an understanding of how deep red and infrared light are penetrating into the body? I've heard a range of things. I've heard it up to, like, 30 centimeters even, which could be, like, all the way through the body. I don't know if there's a consensus there or if it varies, obviously,

depending on, like, the power of the device as well. But do you have any thoughts on that? I don't think that you can get all the way through the body with, like, like, an LED. Yeah. or at least not the LEDs that are available to consumers. Maybe you can get through the body with a very high-powered laser that you pulse. Because when you get, let's say the 300-millimeter launch, you start worrying about heating of the tissue at the skin.

But the way you can mitigate that is by pulsing the laser. Maybe you can use a higher-powered laser, but pulse it, and maybe you could actually get the light all the way through. I mean, I think that that's possible. We tell people, you know, a few millimeters to a few centimeters, you know, with LEDs at the power density that's available. And that's about right. And then with the brain, but then it really depends on the wavelength too, right?

So a few millimeters is red light, and then a few centimeters would be near infrared light. And then they've done cadaver studies where on the, because it's kind of hard to measure living, living humans, like where the light's going in the brain. Yeah. So they do cadaverous studies on that, and they found 8-10 nanometers penetrates the skull to the belly. So that is why we use 8-10 in our helmet. Okay.

So we're trying to get through the skull. That's the wavelength that we chose. But the brain is exciting because I don't think you need a lot to really move the needle. Because the brain, you know, because the skull's in the way, it doesn't really get a lot of light. You know, maybe I think the number I heard was if you're out in midday sun, maybe about 1% of the light energy gets through the skull to the brain. So, you know, the brain is, uh, so unlike skin, which is exposed to and, you know,

builds up kind of a resistance, if you will, the brain is super sensitive. So if we can even just get a little bit there, then the logic is and you might be able to move the needle. That makes sense. Do you have, um, I meant to ask this earlier, but do you have a sense of how the red and infrared light content of, let's say like midday sun compares to like a light device. Like I don't know if anybody's crunched the numbers on that. Yeah. So near,

what I can tell you is near infrared at midday is 100 milo. Okay. So, so that's, again, another triangulation point where I feel really good about the safety of our lights because that's what we're getting from the sun, 100melo. Mm-hmm. So, and we're below that. So, and not only we below it, but we're,

below it in the part of near infrared depth, like the safest, non-thermal, you know, we're below 1,000 nanometers. So, so again, that's why there's such a really good safety profile. I'm super thankful that on the 72,000 lifetime customers that the number of reported, you know, effects or non-favorable effects, I'll say, is I literally can count on one hand. And usually when, and so there's so few, is I usually engage with the customer direct. and I just kind of ask them questions because I want to understand, you know, if you had some sort of unfavorable or undesired effect, you know, what is actually could be causing that. And almost always it's related to some medical condition or medication.

Yep. And so, so super safe. And again, you know, actually less than what we get from midday sun, you know, and get the sun down like with no clap. Yeah, that makes sense. And actually on the topic of like health benefits and for humans, I mean, I know you guys released like a pet pad too. Do you want to talk about a little bit? Because I thought it's such a great idea because personally I can say my animals whenever I use the panels, they are like magnetized to them. They love them.

Well, that's funny because that was really the origin of it. You know, we were getting, you know, obviously we live in us a very connected world. And so we're getting a lot of feedback from our customers. when we were noticing on social, getting tagged with pets, like a lot. And also, and people telling that very same story that the light turns on and the cat or dog typically just gravitates towards it and like plops down and fun of it or next to it. And it's just like, wow, like, well, first of all, there's an opportunity there. Like, we know that it works just the same on animals as it does on humans, right? But also, like, the animals are probably telling us something.

Like, that's how I think about it, too. You know, probably much more in tune with their physiology. You know, we're so distracted and we live so much in our heads. And so we're also, I feel like we're very disconnected, generally. Whereas, you know, probably they're just, they don't have as much noise. And so they're much more in tune with their bodies. And so when you turn the light on, they discreet. gravitate toward it instinctively.

And so that, to me, again, it's a signal that we're doing something good. But also that, you know, maybe we should just have something for the animal. So we designed the pet pet. Really, it's the same LEDs that we use in our belt, but we

just put it on a battery. So, you know, we didn't want anything that would be plugged in that, you know, fluffy or spot besides to chew on the wire, you know, we don't have an electrical, you know, hazard. Yeah. So they're repowered only.

And it's just a very simple pad. But yeah, it's catching on. I'm actually kind of surprised that, I mean, I have three cats. I love my cat. But I'm surprised at how well it's doing, frankly. Because people love their pets, I guess. I guess I shouldn't be surprised. We do.

We do. And yeah, they clearly love it. Are they the same wavelengths? So which wavelengths are in the pet pad compared to like the mitopro? So 630, 6.50, 8.30, 8.50. Amazing. But it's actually, but we use 2 thirds near-throid. And the reasoning is, you know, they've got a little bit more fur.

You probably want a little bit more near-in-fread to get kind of through. The near-froid will go through clothing. I mean, you know, we'll go through bone. So we wanted to pump up the near-infred with that because obviously the pets have got a little bit more in the way of their skin. Yeah, makes sense. Do you want to talk about some, like, basic recommendations or protocols or suggestions you guys use for different goals somebody might have, whether it's skin issues or injury healing or maybe discuss, like, the distance and the time and what typically works well for people? Sure. So, well, I would say the dose matters.

And it really depends. Generally speaking, for the skin, we recommend. little bit less and for the deeper tissue or bone joints muscle recovery we would recommend a little bit more and so it's to give you kind of numbers around that so so our device is put out at the recommended usage distance anywhere from two and a half to three and a half joules per square centimeter per minute and you generally if you look at the research you generally want somewhere between five joules and 50 to 60 joules depending on what you're doing. So like five

joules would be like the eyes. So now we don't generally recommend our devices we use for the eyes. They're very bright. They can't wear the goggles. It's in case. But, you know, if I were going to use it for the eyes, maybe I'd be, you know, 18 inches away and I might use it for a minute or two. You know, that's a lot of light actually to get into the case. For skin, I would say anywhere from 15 to 25 joules. So that would be six to eight minutes, maybe going up to 10 depending on if you had one of our lower

power dial, 18 inches. And then for deeper tissue, you want more. If you have an acute injury, maybe you want 50 to 60 joules. And, you know, so if I sprained an ankle or if I hurt my back, actually, two Christmases ago I was putting together my son's bike and I was just

using really, really horrible posture while I was down on the ground, you know, putting it together, and I wrenched my back. Oh. And I had a mito pro on my back for a half an hour, you know, and I, and I finally, I just kept it going until I started to feel better. And so I would normally, that's a lot. I would normally recommend that, but that's for that acute problem, that's, like,

what I needed. But so, so anyways, that equates anywhere between like two minutes and 20 minutes. They're about with our devices, so it's not, not an accident that we kind of just generally recommend about 10 minutes. for kind of regular maintenance, if you will. And that's, again, based on our reading of the literature of like five to 60 joules for most things. Amazing. And yeah, and just for the people listening for some contexts around like how I'm

using them, I also like to run the panels in the background if I'm going to be inside and want some extra red and infrared light in my environment to try to mimic what I might be getting if I were outside. Obviously, it's not perfect. But it does help to just support your mitochondria in the very low red infrared environment of indoor artificially lit environments. And I personally feel like it helps me with like just focus and energy and not really getting like any sort of mental fatigue as I'm working. So this time of year I'm primarily working outside. I really like lean on the panels a lot during the wintertime.

Also for use when I'm using like my spurty lamps, like the UV lights, the vitamin D lights, I like to combine them together since naturally we would receive UV light always with red and infrared light in midday sun. So I try to use them together to mitigate some of the effects because there's also some really cool research showing that red and infrared light exposure before and after and presumably during UV light exposure protects against skin inflammation and burning. So it's a really nice synergy there to get some of those benefits you would get from midday sun more towards like the late spring, early summer. So those have been some great applications that I've loved to use them for. I also at nighttime, if I want to use the panel, typically I just use it on like the near infrared mode so that I'm. not getting the brightness from the red light. Is that something that you also suggest? You know, I know that we say, so again, this is my, I'm going to fear it off into my own

personal opinion on this. And so we know that blue and green light are the problematic wavelengths for melatonin suppression. Having said that, there is no time in nature where we would have been exposed to the kind of super bright light that comes out of a panel like ours after sunset, right? So even though it's only red and the infrared, it is a very large amount of just light energy in general. And even the brightest bonfire, you know, would probably not, you know, really come

close to that. So to me, I would say, you know, I like to use it. And I just generally recommend using during the day because it's more congruent with nature. And even though I'm not aware of any research. that says that a very powerful red light could disrupt your circadian biology. I would still just be, you know,

I would just recommend trying not to use it. So I agree with your approach to just use the near-infraud. I do use a little bit of, we have a pod now. So I do use that at night, especially if I miss my daily session, panel session for whatever reason. And I just want to make sure I get my dose of infrared and red. But, you know, that isn't, that isn't going into my face or my eyes at all. And it's actually much lower power.

So, and I actually find that it does calm me at the end of the night to kind of lay in that for 10 or 15 minutes. So that, that, so you can do that. I would just have caution about the bright lights, particularly in the eyes after something. Yeah, totally. Do you want to elaborate on that pod a little bit? Is it going to be commercially available or is it just a gadget that it's for you for now? No, no, we have it. We have it.

It's called the mitopod. And it's basically, it's like a giant, well, a mat. I think about it like a yoga mat. Okay. Double-sided. So I think we have 3,000 LEDs. It's 1500 in the top, 1500 at the bottom. And you just lay in it, and then you lay it on top of you.

Your head sticks out. And you can just bathe the front back of your body in red and air for a light. It's not anywhere near as powerful as the panels. but it is super convenient, right? Because I have it next to my bed and I'll do it to wind down. And it's also great for travel. So if you travel and you can't, you don't want to miss your red and near Fred Light. Taking a panel with you is not really feasible and big and heavy.

So this thing folds up and you can throw it in your suitcase. That's great. Yeah, I love that. So I'm definitely going to check that out. I also carry the mini like cordless one with me. I just took a flight last month. month. And on the plane, I was using it primarily in like the near infrared mode because I don't want to freak people out like what's going on over here. But I was like shining out on my thyroid and just like, you know, getting some of my body with it. I felt like it really helped. I'm not somebody who really does well with flying. I never enjoy flying. It always kind of makes me feel sick. But this time between the red light, I was also using some deteriorating depleted water. I felt really good. I didn't have any issues from flying. So I think it's definitely, it definitely works to support your mitochondria and that very artificial. or like unnatural, let's say, EMF environment, because, I mean, you're up at 35,000 feet.

You're also exposed to a lot of EMFs that the atmosphere would have blocked, in addition to obviously the Wi-Fi and everything that's kind of zapping you as you're flying in this metal tube because it's kind of trapped there. So I think there's lots of ways we can biohack flying and traveling to help mitigate some of the negative effects. And then you can enjoy your trips more and then feel healthier while doing so versus, you know, potentially feeling sick and having more jet lag and things like that. totally agree. Yeah. It is essentially a flying microwave.

Yeah, we're literally like stakes being microwaved. Everybody's happy with the Wi-Fi. And I'm like, you know, actually, sometimes we'll book flights and I'm like, if they don't have Wi-Fi, I tell them my wife, because she's my assistant, they don't have Wi-Fi, that's fine. Yeah, it's great. Like, I'll read a book, you know, and I'll be happy. Exactly. The Wi-Fi is not even that great anyway. So it's not the end of the world if it's missing.

I think it's better for people to probably just decompress and do something non-electronic during that time. Ideally, would you want to walk us through the products that you guys have available at this point? And maybe if you have any things on the horizon that we can look forward to, you can talk about that too. Sure. So, well, our core competency is panels. I mean, that's how the business started. You know, started with the basic panel. And now we've got four different versions of the panels, trying different combinations of wavelengths to see what kind of feedback we? get but all within the optical window of 6 to 900 nanometers again for safety and and

that's just you know what's studied and but but different combinations and the adapt I'm not sure if you're familiar with the adapt but the the origin story for the adapt was trying to see if we could gather it systematically gather data on what is actually working for people because you know if you were to ask me what what should I do for sleep I don't know why I don't have a specific answer and I don't know that anybody does. I mean we could point to a couple of studies that were done using XYZ wavelength but that doesn't mean that that is necessarily the best wavelength or the best duration or power just

means that there was a study done that showed that there was benefit from that specific those specific set of variables right so the adapt was meant to we use four wavelengths but there's 11 different modes there's 11 different combinations of wavelength and it app control so that we gathered data on how it's being used, and then we ask for feedback, like in a systematic fashion from the user, with the hopes that, you know, when we gather enough data, we might start to see some heat maps, like, oh, wow, people that use mode two, telling us their sleeping great, people that use mode seven, or telling us they have more energy, whatever.

And then maybe we can use those to inform kind of small studies that we would fund. So that is the origin. And so that product's been around for about a year and a half. It's actually on my do list that kind of start to crunch the data, see if we're getting any signals in the data or if it's all this noise. I don't know yet. Amazing. And in that ADAPT series, is that also the core four wavelengths?

Or is there any difference between those and the others? We put, instead of 8.30, we did 8.10. And that was just to have to kind of change it up a little bit in case somebody wanted 810, because, again, it's been shown to penetrate skull the deep. not a huge change. But the difference with that panel is, so there's 630, 660, 8, 10, 850. You can make half the panel 810. You can make half the panel 850.

You can make half 630, you can make it 630-60, 660, 850. You can make it 630, 850. You get it. There's 11 modes. So all of those four wavelengths, you know, we can create 11 different combinations. And that is super unique. That doesn't exist anywhere, actually. Normally it's just, hey, you can put red on, you can put Neumphred on,

or you can put both on, but not that level of flexibility. So, you know, like for most devices that have 660, you can use the ADAP without 660 at all. You can just make it all 630 and then F8, 950. So that's out there and it's being used on a daily basis, and we're hoping that when we look at the data, we might see some signals to see how that goes. So, and the paddles to me are the,

If you're going to invest in a light, to me, that's the best place. Just from a power and longevity standpoint, I think I just had somebody leave a review. They've had the lights for four years and you're still gone strong. I love to hear that, but it's also, boy, it's not the great business to be in when the panel lasts for 10 years. And then we've expanded. We do have helmets. We have helmets for hair growth.

We've got the brain helmet, which almost. Also donating, there's a place, Opti Health in North Carolina. They're doing study on vets for TBI. So we donated a bunch of stuff to them to do the study. And then the flexible devices, so the pod and the math that I mentioned, we have a belt. The belts we see used clinically in with functional medicine docs with semi-glut type of weight loss. That's another interesting application.

And then we do have a new product. I didn't bring it. It's on the side. It just launched. It's called the mitochondrial. Okay. And I don't know. Have you ever seen these neck pillows?

Yeah. Nek wedges. So they're really meant to, well, I think the technical term is a cervical orthotic block. And you lay on them and you really just for 10 minutes or so, you want to adjust the curvature of your spine back from this. What we're doing,

all day, every day in front of the computer, we're looking down at our dumb phone. You know, this, and everybody's got neck and shoulder problems because of just what we're doing every day. So 10 minutes laying on this is supposed to, you know, reduce neck pain, reduce muscle stiffness, shoulder pain, et cetera. But red light also does those things. So what we did is we built a unique cervical block that has transparent PVC and silicone on it.

and we have a mobile device like yours that slides in a drawer inside of it. You can illuminate the spine while you're adjusting your neck for the pendant. Cool. That's actually, I'm really excited about it, and we're actually going to the chiropractic show in Florida on August to kind of debut it to the chiropractors and get feedback. And, you know, but it's really interesting. And that's something that I struggle with.

So it's just super fun to me to have for what I know. too is solving my own problems. And I always have terrible tension in my neck and my posture is not the best in I'm working. So this was kind of borne out of that. Nice. Nice. So we have the neck pillow or

block. There's the pod. Oh, also for the pod or like the blanket is that, would you use that for a longer period of time to get the same effects or is it still just like a 10 minute period that you would recommend? It would be longer.

Okay. And it's much smaller LEDs. Now, they are used up against the skin, so that the lack of distance from the device makes up for it somewhat, but they're still, you know, they're not actively cooled. They're not, there's no focusing lens concentrating the light. So they're much lower powered. I mean, they're more on the order of 10 to 20 milawad. So they're in the range, but they're much lower.

And so you'd want to use it, you know, two to three times longer to kind of, get the similar benefit of a panel, but you won't get the penetration that you'll get from a panel, right? Because the more power, the more penetration. So you can get a cumulative dose delivered to the body that's similar, but you won't reach as deep if that helps. So again, to me, the panel is the way to go. You know, but the pods and the flexible device, they have their use case. And certainly for me, if I miss my daily session in the bed, or I have a, I'm super blessed to have a front and back kind of sandwich panel set up, head to toe.

If I don't get in there during the day and then, yes, I do do the pot at night, but my strong preference is to do the panel. And are all the panels across the different series? Are they powered the same amount? So it's like the penetration is going to be the same or are like are the pros more highly powered or the adapts more highly powered than like the base model? they're close there is it's like we have our kind of original like budget conscious

series that is a little bit lower power the pros we have two pro series so now and those are very very similar actually the power density

they're in that mid-seventh range the adapt is actually a little bit lower because we had to squeeze two chips under each land in order to create the 11 modes And so there was some like constraints there. And so the chips are a little different in terms of like how we had to engineer that. So we had to give up a little power.

But still, I'll top of my head, it's maybe in the mid-60s. So we have, so we're between 50 to 75 for all of the panel series. But the pros, if you just want pure power, then you want to, you want a pro hacker. It's now the new one. Got it. And what about for the handheld ones? Are those also the same power? It's just a smaller panel? A little bit lower because again, like, it's a bit lower. battery. It's your rate by like how much juice you can put in a battery and also have it not

die after, you know, 20 minutes of use, right? So you want to charge it and, you know, we want it to last for a couple of hours charge and it's only 12 LEDs. Those though, like, I actually, if I have like an elbow issue or a knee issue, I will put that right on my elbow. And so you can get it closer, even though it's not nearly as powerful as a pro, you know, you can, put it much closer to the body. And also just because it's handheld, you can easily do that. Great. Yeah. The reason I ask is because people are always damming me and they're like, what's the difference between these panels? Help me decide what I need.

And I'm always like, well, I dig into your specs and everything so I can usually make recommendations, but it's good to have everything laid out by you. And people can just come and listen to this episode and they can figure out what's best for them. I, look, the portable devices are good. And it's the same thing. I guess I'm a panel purist after doing this for six years. If you're only going to get one thing, just at least get a tabletop panel plug in because you get a lot of light. And it is very versatile. It's not just as portable of the handheld.

But, you know, you can use it for the face and neck for skin health. You could use it for your hair if you want. Like I used to lay down on the floor and it's shot up on the top of my head. You use it for any body part. And you get a lot of light. And also those things are built like tanks. And so they'll last really long time. the other downside of the flexible devices is that, you know, they did a lot more wear and tear.

So I don't expect that they'll last as long just because of how they're used. So I would say invest in the panel. And then, you know, once you start to really love red light, then we certainly would appreciate if you came back and, you know, got a portable and, you know, maybe a handheld or a flexible belt or something like that, that would be great. But if you're only going to get one thing, definitely got a panel. Yeah, it's good also for like the portable ones as conversation starters. I've noticed because people ask me about it and then I get to give them my whole field on light and

the importance of different frequencies of light and how it's benefiting their health. So I think it's great like icebreaker and it's also fun and really helpful just in general to be able to have something that you can take with you that can be supportive even if you're not going to have access to your at home panel. But totally agree. Like we've had our full size like the 1,500750 panels since it's probably been like two and a half years. And we use them almost every day. and absolutely love them and can't live without them. Like I know a lot of other people that have red light panels that have complaints about them,

and I literally haven't had a single complaint about ours. I just absolutely adore them. So we're coming out with a new handheld, so I'll definitely send you one to get your feedback. Cool. I mean, it had a very nice aesthetic, it's got a handle, it's got an ambient light, but it's, you know, it's going to get the amber light, not a white light. Oh. I wanted to use it on your nightstand for,

for evening lighting you could. So yeah, it's exciting. It's taken a while. I think it has a much, I like the, I think you have probably have a flex. Yeah. I like the flex, but this one has like a much cooler kind of look

or aesthetic to me. So, you know, there's different ways to innovate. You know, we can have more power, we can have different wavelengths, or we could just improve the aesthetics that we're trying to do all of us. Yeah, that's true. I mean, there's like definitely functionality component.

It sounds like the handle would be a great addition. So the power's going to be the same. It's just basically in a different package. Yes. Yes. And actually, we're for wavelengthens because why not. Oh, amazing. That's awesome.

Well, I mean, this has been such an informative podcast. Is there anything else you want to share before we sign off for now? I know. Well, just thank you for having me on. I mean, obviously, I love talking about light and health. It's been game changer for me. Like, and I'm super thankful for, uh, and I know that you're a fan of Jack Cruz.

I mean, Jack Cruz was instrumental. I mean, I read his book when it first came out. And so, and obviously, I followed his work, and that was a big part of, like, what's brought me to this point today. So super thankful for the people that came before us and that educated us on the importance of this. And that's what my purpose is now is to try to help people, you know, live better lives, to empower them to live better lives

and to, you know, hopefully create products that, you know, help them in that regard. So if you have any questions, just, you know, feel free to come to our site, send us an email, info at myto-redlight, then come. Amazing. And I'll include in the show notes, the email and your website and your Instagram, and you said you have blog, too, a blog? Yes, we have a very, got dozens for it. Great. What sorts of topic? Diving into everything. So it's a lot of fun, actually. It's also very good

for me to kind of stay on top of the research. Because there's so much. That database I mentioned, when I started in 2019, there were 4,000 studies. Wow. And so just in the past six years, it was grown by 3,000, which is incredible. Wow. This piece of human knowledge is like accelerating, right? Pretty crazy.

Yeah, yeah, this is a really hot topic, too, and I think it's helping a lot of people. So it's great that there's a push to understand and learn more on the topic. And I'm definitely going to check out that database. But, Scott, thank you so much for coming on. Like I said, I'll include all the info in the show notes. anybody who's listening who wants to check out their products and I also have a discount code with them and I'll include that there if you guys want to use my affiliate you can otherwise I mean you're going to enjoy it either way so I'm happy to spread the love and share

these incredible products and thank you so much for coming on this was really fun thank you good