Undoctrinate Yourself - #23 - Lucy Hendricks

Episode Date: March 12, 2025

Lucy Hendricks is a gym owner and personal trainer based in Lexington, KY. She specializes in working with individuals sidelined from fitness due to chronic pain, illness, and beyond, supporting their return to movement in a safe and empowering way.Find Lucy on Instagram ⁠@lucy_hendricks⁠⁠Lucy's Website⁠: https://coachlucyhendricks.com/⁠Gym Website⁠: https://www.enhancinglifegym.com/Follow the podcast on Instagram ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠@undoctrinateyourselfpod⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Follow Dr. Alexis on Instagram ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠@dralexisjazmyn⁠⁠

Hello everyone and welcome back to Undoctrinate Yourself. Today I have a really fun guest for you. We connected on social media a while ago and finally are doing an episode together after chatting a lot. This is Lucy Hendrix. She's the co-owner of a gym in Lexington, Kentucky. And she works on helping getting people out of pain and staying that way so that they can pursue the activities and the fitness goals that they have in their life without being restricted, movement-wise, ability-wise, so that they can, you know, kind of harness their potential physically. And so I'm really excited to chat about this today because it's a problem that a lot of people have, like getting in pain and, like, just thinking that that's normal as well. So knowing that we don't have to normalize that, I think, is a great relief and strategies that we can take to alleviate pain and get back to living life in the way that we want to, I think is so empowering in so many ways. So welcome, Lucy. I'm really excited to chat.

Thank you. Thank you for having me. Yeah, it's my pleasure. So do you want to tell us a little bit about how you got into the fitness space or the rehab space? and what motivated you if there was any personal story behind it, and then maybe we can take it from there? Yeah, it was completely by accident. I had failed out of college at 18,

and my mom had mentioned a personal training school that was about to open a year-long program. You go through it and you become a personal trainer. And at the time, I had a lot of body dysmorphia. I was bulimic and I hated myself. So I thought, personal training school will make me get in shape. So at least I'll get that.

Mom's willing to pay for it. Why not? And halfway through the program, I met this trainer. His name was Mike Robertson. And he has a gym in Indianapolis. And they are known for teaching people how to strength train in a way that feels good. It gets them stronger. And like you mentioned in my intro, it gets them to do it without pain.

And the outcome of just moving and exercising. usually is less pain, even though that's not directly the intent. Trainers usually don't treat it, but that doesn't mean they can't work with people with it. And when I saw his talk halfway through this program, I knew that's what I wanted to do. I wanted to help people move better, feel better. And because I had a very shy personality, very quiet, which was a big weakness is mine, people in pain gravitated towards me because their perception of their own body is that they can't do much. They don't feel safe moving their body.

So the fact that I was very monotone and quiet and gentle really spoke to them. And that's how I immediately started working with those people right when I was 19, 20. And that's how I got started. Wow. So for perspective, how long have you been on this journey now? because, I mean, you look like you could still pass for 20. So it's hard to say. I'm 33 now. Okay. Oh, so we're about the same age. That's pretty cool. That's amazing, though. I love when,

so I don't know if, do you know Rua, Gilna? Yes. I think that's how I ended up finding out about you. Oh, amazing, amazing. So we're a really good friends. And I mean, I'm seeing some parallels in your story just because he was doing the college thing first as well and then found like it wasn't just the right fit for him. Like it was too confining in some ways and wanted to like directly help people in a more tangible way. So I love that journey. And I think it's so important too to amplify voices that aren't necessarily going the traditional route because I think college isn't for everybody. And for a lot of people, it just equates to a lot of debt that ends up burdening you down

and making you do things and make choices in life around money versus around like what your passion is and what your purpose is. So I think it's great that you kind of discovered that for yourself early on. And so when did you open your gym, like on this timeline? How long was that after the PT school? I opened my gym eight years ago. So we're about to hit eight years. That's awesome. And so did you initially start as like a rehab gym or was it mostly just like a typical gym people would walk into and get a membership and like go get a workout? It was a very lucky situation. It was a small boutique gym like the one I own now. And I got thrown into the fire and I taught a lot of group classes. But this gym, even though their big focus was string training and they did have some power lifters,

we also focused on a lot of rehab clients and people who are pre post-op, knee replacements, hip replacements. But in that gym, that's when I noticed that the rules of how to deal with someone in pain to not make sense. because when you become a trainer, you become a coach, you're told if someone has pain, you've got to refer out. You've got to send them to a physical therapist. And I am a very big rule follower. I have OCD, so sometimes I can get locked into something really hard. And that's what I tried to do.

Oh, you have pain, which was almost everybody. You need to be referred out. And I would either refer them out and some would get better, but a lot of them wouldn't. Or I would try to refer them out. And they'd say something like, oh, I already see a physical therapist every other week. Or I've already been to five physical therapists, I've had an exploratory surgery. I see a pain doctor. And so the steps to get someone out of pain and feeling better did not add up.

And if I'm being honest, for about six years or five years of my career, I felt like I was doing something wrong because I was always told you should not be working with people in pain. people need to be fixed those people need to see a physical therapist but in my head I'm like but they've already been referred out they're already seen those people so what am I supposed to do let them go to crossfit or let them sit at home and not do anything and it wasn't until five six years in I'm speaking to a physical therapist because he's seeing my clients through zoom and he goes you work with people in chronic pain and I remember like no no no no I don't um those people will be been referred out that they're seeing other PTs. And he's like, no, that's, that's amazing because people in pain need all the things that you promote. You promote getting sunshine, you promote

sleep, you promote meditation, you promote social connection. I was like really into the paleo world back then. He's like all those things people in pain need. And that was the first time that someone had introduced to me the idea of pain being more than just a biomedical thing of just joints, muscles, tissue and pain being more influenced by many factors. And a lot of those factors I saw as a gym owner totally being in my wheelhouse. And that's when I really started learning more about pain instead of being discouraged to learn about it. I actually dug into it and I saw that we really needed trainers to get on board to work with people in pain if we really want people to feel better. Yeah. Wow. It's just like bringing up a lot.

me with regards to like the insurance model and like just the way that our medical system is set up as well with the siloing of specialties and nobody wants to have their like ass on the fire they always want to like avoid having liability as much as possible so if somebody seems like you know you're not sure if you're equipped to help them like of course you can consider you know do we need like a team effort on this individual but on one hand is like i think there's it's important to differentiate between like, do I not just want to take on this risk because I don't feel like confident in myself or like am I actually not equipped to take this person on? I think there's a big difference there. And I would also argue that a lot of PTs aren't actually trained to really,

really truly help people at a fundamental level. Like I know a lot of people who've gone to PT, including friends and family members and like, especially now with my PRI lens through Rua's work, I can just see how they're really not dealing with like underlying patterns in place that are creating the maybe the maladaptive activation of specific muscles or the or the hyper extension of joints and things like that. And instead we're just like looking, okay, here's the pain. We're going to deal with this problem. You have pain in your shoulder. We're just going to look at your shoulder. We're not going to look at your gate or anything else, your vision or your dental or anything else. So I feel like the lack of integration between specialties in this field and others is just like

this glaring issue that we're facing. Exactly. And like you mentioned they're not skilled. And that's a huge part. Or they could be skill. I know a lot of physical therapists that think the way I think have similar skills than I do, but they don't have the environment that they can actually really help people. Especially when it comes to pain, I find that you really need time and patience. And it might take years to slowly change someone's relationship with pain.

And I think that's the big role that I play in people's lives, is that I take someone in pain and slowly I get them to start thinking differently. And that can look different with everybody because everybody has different past experiences, different beliefs, different situations. And I find that it's best to use their own experience to slowly change and push back on their beliefs. And an example that would be like if I have a client who has really bad chronic back pain and they're really scared to feel that back pain. They're really scared to flare it up and make things worse.

And when they feel that pain, they catastrophize and think that certain things are happening that might not be true. And I find that trying to change that right away doesn't work well. So instead, I wait to use their own experience to slowly change beliefs. So that client could be doing step-ups for the first time and their knee hurt for about two days. But because their knees not connected to this big, big emotional trauma, like, they're back. They don't think anything of it. And when I say it's not a big deal, they believe me. I'm like, okay, so how long did your knee hurt? They're like, oh, it's just like a day. And then like,

by the next day, it was like 50% better, but it was fine by the end of that night. And when I give them the reaction of like, okay, that's not a big deal. How about let's do the step-ups again, but instead of doing four sets, let's do three. Because I feel like by now you've probably adapted to that move. And there I'm like slowly teaching them that their body is adaptable. And just because something hurt once doesn't mean that it will always hurt. And because they trust me and because they don't have this emotional attachment to their knee, like their back, they're like, okay, I'll try that.

I trust you. And almost always I'm right. Sometimes I'm not. And but there it's like small little change in belief. I make them see that connection. And then the next time it's their elbow when they do pushups for the first time. And I like, remember how your knee hurt when you did that step up that you tried it again and you adapted? They're like, yeah.

I'm like, why don't we do the same thing? Instead of four sets, you do three or instead of going down slower, just go a little faster. And then it's fine. So then they slowly start to change their mindset. Then when I challenged them and maybe had them do a head. hinge that they were very scared to do a year ago and their back flares up, they might have this big emotional response, but if I'm strategic enough and if I communicate well enough, I'm able to maybe make those connections like, remember your knee, remember your elbow, your back might be the same.

And that's when they're like, okay, yeah, let's try the delfts again, but let me give me the 35, not the 40. And even if they do that, like, that's a big win. And I silently pat myself on the back every time a client negotiates with me over an exercise that they think hurt them or injured them, even though I might not think that. But they negotiate in a way where the end result is doing that exercise again. They're like, well, I'm not going to do down and back with the sled, but I'll do down. And in my head, I'm like, whatever it takes. I'm so proud. I'm like, yes. And they're like, and in two weeks, I'll try it down back again.

And I find that that kind of change is life changing and we need with people in pain, but it takes time. And so if a clinician doesn't have that environment, they don't see them twice a week for weeks and weeks and weeks. They can't have that type of change that I can have at my gym. Yeah, this is so true. I actually had a client with, it sounds very akin to what you just shared, who had foot pain. And the foot pain itself wasn't like catastrophic. But for one reason or another, whenever that foot pain arose, it triggered these anxiety circuits in his mind that would then cause him to spiral. And it was more so like when the pain initially had started, there was a certain set of probably life circumstances and situations that were associated with that pain. that all get dragged back up every time even the smallest sensation occurs in that area. And I think it's really interesting.

I mean, if we think about pain, it's activating more of our threat detection response and our sympathetic nervous system. And depending on how regulated your nervous system is in general, that, you know, even a smaller sensation could lead to like an overblown output that's, that senses this immense threat by the body and the brain. But that it's not necessarily what's actually happening. like you mentioned when you were just telling us about like your experience working with people in pain. So I think it's definitely something people encounter a lot. And I also think it's really interesting from like a neurological standpoint,

understanding like neuroplasticity and how to create new connections and, you know, maybe phase out connections that aren't serving us anymore. Exactly. And the emotional response is something that I talk to clinicians and especially coaches about. because they struggle having that compassion towards people or even understanding if they haven't experienced it themselves. I almost said luckily, but luckily, I have experienced debilitating pain. It was only a year, but it was the hardest year of my life. I was debilitating anxiety. I was suicidal. And my back pain was so bad at one point that my boyfriend, who's now my business

partner, he had to carry me. I would, in order for me to move, I would have to go completely limp and he would have to move my body. Because if I tins up just any little bit, it was excruciating pain. And that was like 2018. It went away. But seven months later, I'm at a pool. I go and pick up my dog and boom, like that same pain. And I'm like, oh, shit. I don't want to go back there. I do not want to go back there. Like that was the worst time in my life. Like I'm past it. And even I did not catastrophize like my disc blowing out or things happening in my spine.

I knew that the amount of pain that I was experiencing did not match the actual damage or whatever was happening in my body. I was pretty logical about that perspective. But I still didn't want to go back there. Like emotionally, it brought up a lot of shit for me. And it really taught me to grow this huge understanding with other people who have had pain for 10 years. Sometimes pain ruins people's marriage, their relationship, their job, their quality of life, like everything. And when they feel that again, like you mentioned with that lady with her foot, all these things come up. And the big thing that their body is saying is, oh, shit, I don't want to go back there.

I do not want to go back to that place in my life. Totally. Do you know what caused your pain for like that year? Was there any indication of what that might have been? It was after a heavy deadlift. But like anything, pain influenced by many factors, it was a heavy deadlift that I didn't recover well from, under-eating protein or under-eating everything. thing because I was severely depressed and suicidal. And I would go a day and I would eat like two eggs

because I just couldn't eat. So that and then I had really unmanageable OCD. I was not able to leave the house and just go to work. I would have to turn around like three times. I couldn't eat my boyfriend's food because I thought that he didn't read the label right or it was undercooked it smelled bad when he opened the chicken package. So I had severe mental issues. And now knowing what I know about pain, I see why that happened. Yeah, I think that makes a lot of sense. Actually, so we were talking a little bit earlier in the DMs. And I'm curious if this relates to the story, but we were talking about MDMA. And I was mentioning also that I had had this immense healing experience with MDMA the first time I had it when, like, I lost a bunch of weight like 13 years

ago and after having extreme weight loss, like, I think body dysmorphia is pretty normal just because you're inhabiting a body that doesn't look the same way that it did, but at the same time, you're kind of the same person in this body. So it's like it can be a big kind of adjustment to make that. And then like the fear of regaining weight pushed me also into like bulimia and disordered eating. So we share that in common. And I don't, you mentioned something about MDMA also being a catalyst in your healing journey, but I was just curious if that also was a part of your healing process with the OCD and like the anxiety side of the story as well. Yeah. Oh, 100%.

It was like a light switch. Yes. This one time that I did it. But before that, I would do it recreationally. And it was, people always said they loved watching me do MDMA because it was the only time that I would just let go. Oh. And it's sad to think.

that you need drugs or a substance to get to that point. And in 2020, I had one night where I did it and it was a different shift where it was, oh, my body can feel so in the moment, so okay with everything in life right now, so grateful for everything that I have. Look at what my body is capable of feeling. Why can't I just hold on to that? And after that moment, I was, was able to tap into those feelings without MDMA and it was life changing. And one way that I was able to do that was by listening to music. Because during my time on MDMA, that's usually what I do. I'm at a concert. I'm out dancing for hours and hours and hours. And after that night, all I have to do is dance and listen to music. And when I'm dancing, my mindset is everything is as if

it should be. Everything is just, everything will turn out in the end. And I found that the more and more I did that, the more my mindset started to just be the new normal when I wasn't even dancing or on MDMA. And I think that was a huge turning point when it came to my depression and anxiety. I love that. And that's why it's like really frustrating in that post I saw earlier that you had remarked on as well that there's some pushback, even though like, like MDMA has been shown to be very efficacious in the treatment of PTSD and a lot of these body dysmorphy and eating disorders and all of these areas, but there's like pushback at the higher level because you can't really market it because maybe you only need a couple sessions to actually have like full remission. That's not something that like pharma, let's say, wants to back because there's not like an immense amount of money. You're not going to have repeat customer like the same customer.

The lifetime value of that customer is going to be much lower than somebody who has to take. take a medication every day for the rest of their life, for example. So I think, I mean, it just points to the whole poorly constructed incentive structure that's within medicine at this point, the way that medicine is like embedded within the capitalist system that I just think creates this very toxic environment for actually true healing. But your experience is totally mirrored in mind as well. And like actually every time typically like I'll do MDMA maybe like once or twice a year and like a more ceremonial setting and I almost always play like the same mix every time and whenever I listen to that even when I'm not taking it it's like I just feel like I'm transported into that state of mind and I think

that's also the goal in general with any sort of substances that people are using it's like the substances are just unlocking and a capability your body already has like it's interacting with receptors that are already there it's triggering neurochemicals that are already there and then it's like our job to if we like find that experience to be extremely valuable to figure out how to access it without needing the substance. And I think, I mean, that's not a distinguishment that's often made. Like a lot of people will just gravitate towards like abusing substances instead. But I think we do have an immense capacity to be able to reproduce those states of mind without the need of anything exogenous. And that's where like the real power and the transformation can come in.

Yeah. Yeah. Completely. And being able to use something and not have to be on it for life is pretty powerful. But it doesn't make money. Exactly. And I mean, I think it just really shows that the vast majority of people who are making decisions on these topics have never had a psychedelic experience or an MDMA experience. And it's just they don't even, they're just believing whatever propaganda dare taught us in like grade school.

They don't have any direct experience with it, which seems insane for somebody who's making decisions about like an ability of other people. to access this thing. Like at the very minimum, they should have had some experience with it to know, like, what they're even talking about, but they do not. And it really shows, I think it's unfortunate, but I think it will come around ultimately. These types of things just may take some time. But, I mean, in the meantime, I think people kind of need access to these things sooner than later as well. But you can also access these types of states with meditation and breathwork and being in nature and just like connecting to the earth. And so I think those are also really

really powerful modalities people can leverage in the meantime. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, it does not have to do with drugs. Nature is the other one if you were asking about what contribute to my change. And during COVID, I started walking every single day. And the only time I would ever spend outside and appreciate nature was when I was traveling and I would go to national parks and I was off work, which was all great. But during COVID, I realized I could tap into those.

feelings every single day. Just walking down the street, looking at the tree and getting in the mindset that this is the first time I've ever seen this tree. And oh my God, it's so beautiful. And I have that type of feeling every single time I walk by the same tree. That's powerful. And that's what I learned during COVID, walking an hour and being outside every single day. I'm like, wow, I would wait to listen to the birds chirping when I was on vacation when I was in Costa week. Like, oh, I'm on vacation. Look at the bird. Listen to the birds. I have that every single day. I just wasn't paying attention. Wow. Yeah, that's such a important reflection. I think that's also reflected at the level of like your nervous systems regulation too, because if you're stuck in like

this more sympathetic mode, everything is just like your whole entire reality is just like right here. You're not looking at the panoramic view like literally and also figuratively where you're not even really cognizant of your full environment. You're just like hyper focus. and pain can also contribute to this. Pain kind of like sharpens your consciousness. It makes you very focused on one point. And if we're focused on that pain in a way that's like we're just trying to get rid of it without understanding what might be underlying it that's trying to teach us something, then it's a missed opportunity to actually transform at some level. So the more that we can like intentionally get parasympathetic and tune in with nature and tune into our environments and just be hyper aware of our senses and like our sensory experience and what's going on around us, it just like opens. us up more and helps us to kind of maintain that better balance in our in our autonomic nervous system at just like you know a baseline level yeah someone asked me to because I posted a picture of me grounding outside because you inspired me to do that and someone said have you notice a difference but that's with like everything I'm like well I'm also spending time outside and I'm also

getting sun and I'm also also walking more now that it's nice out. And I'm also doing my somatic dancing in front of my vitamin D light every single day. So it's hard to say that grounding is making me feel better. But I'm feeling pretty good right now with doing all the things that you promote a lot of. Yeah, I think that's really important. I mean, there's a lot of research showing like the benefits to like anti-inflammation. And we know that we can get direct like electrons from the earth through grounding. So there is a basis for why it's helpful. But like you just mentioned, when you're outside, like when you're living in a more, even if it's just for a part of the day, a more ancestral way of being that our bodies kind of evolved to be embodying, then it's not just

one thing. We're getting this symphony of different inputs that our bodies are expecting to get daily that we're kind of depriving our systems of by living a more indoor artificial modern lifestyle that, you know, we don't necessarily, it's not relevant to necessarily look at each input individually and be like, this is doing this and this is doing that. We need kind of all of it in Symphony to get the benefit and it's all available to us at once as well. And that's kind of how nature intended it to be. Yeah. And I think that's how we should look at mental health, physical health, pain. Like everything that we experience needs to be looked at that lens. a lot of things influence it, a lot of factors influence it. So when we address it, we can't just

look at one thing. Yeah, absolutely. So in your gym now, do you want to walk us through like what services you have available, what it looks like to be a client of yours? What are some of the different demographics of people you work with? If you want to give us a couple of case studies to show the power of like the modalities you're using, that would be really dope. Yeah. Yeah. So I've had the gym for quite some time and I've been at it for 14 years. And I never really thought about it deeply what it meant to help people be strong for life. Because that's what we do. We are known to work with people in pain, chronic disease, the special population.

But our big thing is strength training. And I was always proud of it. I always saw a purpose. but I never deeply thought what it actually meant to help people maintain skeletal muscle for the rest of their life. And over the last four years, my business partner and I have reignited our purpose and passion over what we do. And we've seen it grow into something that is really urgent and extremely needed in this population. It's not just for people who want to look good and feel good and be in shape and have a great life. It's for people to not end up in assisted living at 75 or 80 and die a very slow, miserable death and burden their family with the caretaking that, in my opinion, most people are not capable of doing emotionally, physically.

and that has really changed how we approach everything in the gym. So over the last few years, we've turned this gym into this place where people can come in, no matter how decondition they are. We meet them where they're at. And we ease people into strength training through semi-private training. So we've brought down the price. So it doesn't have to be one-on-one,

but we can be very individual because everybody has their own individual program because everybody is on their own individual journey. People recover differently. People have different beliefs and expectations on string training, different backgrounds. If someone is getting 30 grams of protein in a day, that person is going to progress differently than the person who's started out at 100 because they hired a nutritionist a year ago and they've been on the protein journey. So, We have semi-private training where everybody has their own individual approach. And our big goal that we impose on everybody is we have to build skeletal muscle. And I'm like a broken record.

You got to get enough protein. We got to build muscle. We got to get you comfortable training to failure. But before we get to that, let me ease you in. Let's start very, very simple, very, very easy. And then we impose our will and get you to focus on. on skeletal muscle. So if our gym, I mean, if we change the name of the gym,

it's like muscle-centric fitness, like Gabriel Lyons coined the term muscle-centric medicine, because that is our big focus, our big message. I talk about the things that people maybe don't want to talk about, which is aging with bad quality and burdening your family with the caretaking, That's usually a conversation that most people don't want to have, but it's a conversation that almost happens daily at my gym. I talk about my own experience with it. I talk about my business partner's experience with it.

And a lot of my clients talk about their experience with it. And I know I have a very biased perspective on this because it's in my life, my business partner's life, my client's life. So in my world and in my eyes, this is a big deal. Like we are really messing up with how people are aging. And I have this like huge urgency. Like why are we not focusing on protein? Why are we not focusing on strength training? And so I understand that like my sense of urgency might be biased because of my environment.

But there are times where I'm like, no, no, this is a big deal. And we should all be caring about this. And the fact that I'm the only one who has a sense of urgency, not their doctors, not the government, not the people on the news is a big problem, which means that I have to be careful on how I talk about these things. Because if I come off too strong, now I'm like the odd person out. People will be like, well, like if Lucy's really right, like if this is a big deal and we should really prioritize these things, like, why is my doctor not talking to me about this? Why is this not on CNN? Why is a government not making this a big deal? So I have to be careful in how I approach getting people to care about skeletal muscle.

But that's our biggest focus. That's my gym. I love that. Yeah, it's so important. And I mean, one of the studies that I want to do when I'm in the beginning parts of like building out a lab that studies light and other aspects of nature to probably look at grounding and other things. but I really want to know the answer to the question of will people lose muscle at the same rate if they're on bed rest indoors in a hospital under fluorescent lights versus if they're under full spectrum sunlight with red and infrared light that we know penetrates into the body directly supports

mitochondria my hypothesis is that we're going to see a dramatic reduction in the rate of skeletal muscle loss in response to inactivity which is huge right because if let's say you know people have sedentary jobs. If we could get them and they're working from home and could we get them working outside so they're at least getting natural light on themselves to protect their muscle. And then after they're done working, like go do their workout, go and lift their weights. And they'll, you know, not even only support their gains, but also prevent the harms that can come from living a more sedentary lifestyle for, you know, a big chunk of the day. So I think it's a really important question. And like we know, like skeletal muscle is so,

so important if we're trying to protect bones, we're trying to, you know, prevent osteoporone, and bone breaks and like so many older individuals, like they are balanced, start suffering, they fall, they break their leg or their hip, and then they're kind of out for the count, and then everything goes downhill from there. That story is all too common. And it's also just kind of been normalized in this weird way as like when you're, when you're 80 years old, you should just look like this frail thing barely hanging on to life, but that doesn't have to be reality. Yeah, I almost interrupted you to say what you just said. It's what's happening. It's common and we've normalized it. It's just getting old. And I feel like I'm the only one that's like,

no, it's not that you're just getting old. It's that we're not eating protein. We're not spending time outside. We're not string training. It should not be normal. And taking care of the elderly is not the same as it used to be. Because we've, generation after generation, that's just what you do. You take care of the people getting older. And I had to talk with my mom for, five years ago and people see me as the most selfish daughter. I sat her down and I said, I'm not doing what you're doing. I will not. If you don't strength train and take care of yourself and prioritize protein, prioritize steps, prioritize strength training and your mental health, I will not take care of you. I will abandon you. And luckily, she takes care of herself. She

exercises, tries to get like 12 to 15,000 steps a day, loves hiking, eats protein, takes her creatine. But I told her that what we're seeing in the world and with our own family, with my grandma, is a predictable outcome of what happens when we don't prioritize skeletal muscle. And I've sent them so many of Gabriel Lyons videos and her book. But most people think it's just a game of chance. a lot of people in my family look at my grandma and they're like, ooh, hopefully that doesn't happen to me.

Right. And then I'm the only one. I'm like, it doesn't have to. You do not have to end up that way and lose your independence 15 years before you die. It doesn't have to end this way. But that's what's happening when we follow the health guidelines of the people in charge of our reality, the people who are painting. everybody's reality and feeding us information. Yeah, wow, that's so, so important. And I think

everybody can relate to that on some level. Anybody's had a direct or indirect family member who goes through this and starts wasting away and requires like 24-7 care. And like it can drain the life out of the people who are caring for them. And like you said, it's not fair to those people. And I feel like also a lot of people who will like put their health last at the expense like of their own health to like take care of other people and be like self-sacrificing let's say those people aren't realizing that them taking care of themselves first and foremost is serving the people around them so like to be a people pleaser at the expense of your own health and wellness over the long term you're actually doing a disservice to the people that you claim to care about so you need to take care

of yourself first if you don't end up burdening them in the future and causing you know far more issues than like we can even begin to fathom i think that that whole line of like that whole path like nobody wants to go down that. That's basically living in hell. Yeah, yeah. And maybe we're only supposed to deal with that for six months and that would be okay to put yourself on the back burner and maybe your health takes a little bit of a hit. But what I've noticed seeing is that it happens for much longer. And that's what I think people are not ready to cope with or are able to deal with emotionally or physically. And it's a story that repeats itself over and over again. It's that they were working on their health.

Things were going well. And then something happened. And a lot of times is my dad got sick. My mom got sick. I had to take care of them. And then years go by and their health gets to the point where it's really hard to backtrack and really make some meaningful change for them to actually live a life that's really worth living. Mm-hmm.

So do you work primarily with women or do you see these issues with mostly women or do you think it's probably equal between the sexes? What's your take on that? I would say almost an even split. We started with a marketing agency and they discouraged me to not market to men because men are way less likely to click on ads and seek help. Very stereotypical, but the stereotype is very real. And the only reason why we have to be. have a lot of men in our gym is because their wives made them come. And that's just the joke that runs at our gym. When I meet with a woman, they're like, oh, wow, my husband, he really needs this place. I don't think he would come here. I'm like, don't worry. On average, it takes two to six years

of getting the husband in here. But don't worry. It'll eventually happen. And then the husband comes in. And they sit in my office and I'm like, so what brings you in finally? And they're like, my wife. I'm like, cool. You're going to like us in a month. Don't worry. And there will be times because we have semi-private. We have multiple people in a session.

We all have five men in the session. And I realize, wow, every single one of them is here because of their wife. And I love joking about it. One time a guy said, if you make me do split squats, I quit. And I said, let's be real. No one in this room can quit. And your wives would not let you quit. So to answer your question, I have close to an even split, but it's usually women

that seek me first. And then the husband comes in. And when husbands come in first, almost always, my wife made me get online. and look for something or my wife found you and now I'm here, which is why I love working with men. I do a really good job at blending my feminine energy and masculine energy. And I'm part of the fitness industry. I love being masculine. I love having my bros.

I have way more guy friends than I do female friends. And I love working with men. I love giving them shit. I love giving them a hard time. and I love working with them because they are less likely to seek help. Yeah. Ask for help. And so I love having the opportunity to give them help because I know so many people out

there, so many men out there are not actually getting any help. Yeah, I totally agree with you there. I feel like, I mean, I love working with people in general, but I feel like working with men is like, it's special in a lot of ways because I feel like it's nice to be able to provide an alternative perspective to them because obviously they're living life. their lens and maybe it's not serving them in a way and like providing that outside more feminine perspective on things can be really helpful. And so I think that's great. So are most of the people that you're working with like over the age of 50 or do you start with younger people too?

Or what does that look like? Usually over 50. And now that we have more traffic through Google and we've gotten better with our online stuff, younger people are finding us because younger people people are in pain and are looking for a new, new way of working out. But I would say 50 and up. Got it. And so are you incorporating PRI modalities? Are you involved in PRI at all? Or what is, did you have any like specific like PT approaches that you use in your practice when dealing with pain and integration? I took probably like seven, eight PRI courses and courses that were very similar. to it. And for a while, I was teaching coaches about biomechanics and breathing. And what I ended up doing was I simplified a way of looking at biomechanics that worked well with people who work

in a group setting and in the fitness industry where we don't have the environment to assess every single person and give them specific exercises that are very individual to that person. So I took that and built a model that has those types of principles of looking at the rib cage, looking at how people are breathing, and teaching them more as skills. So instead of me trying to assess someone and give them an exercise that gains their shoulder flexion, I just teach people skills that allow them to generally move better. and I got into biomechanics first because I was really into pain. And a lot of people did get out of pain doing these exercises.

But what I wasn't aware of until later on was just because that person got out of pain does not mean it's because you put the pelvis in a certain position or the rib cage in a certain position. It could be, but it could also be just the expectation of the person because of your reputation because pain's influenced by many factors. It could be that you just made that person feel really safe moving for the first time in 10 years. And finally, their body was able to let go. It could be just the increase of blood flow.

Because when we're dealing with pain, especially chronic pain, you're dealing with the nervous system. You're dealing with nerves. And nerves love three things. They love movement. They love blood flow and they love space. So did I just create some extra space? and that's why they got out of pain. Did I create some extra blood flow, some movement?

The answer is I don't really know. So I've created this approach where people might get out of pain, but my language of these techniques or these exercises is more movement. So that way, when someone does get out of pain after doing an exercise, it's not, oh, it's because I did this certain exercise that I've done. that I got out of pain. It's now, it's because I moved around. And that goes back to me slowly trying to change people's belief around pain.

And I even tried to get them to feel less pain with different strategies. So I might get them to be on the ground and they do a bunch of breathing exercises. Or I might put them on the treadmill for 20 minutes, get them a little sweaty. And then they get off the treadmill. They're like, ooh, my back feels better. And I'm like blood flow, movement. And they're like, hmm, okay, I see what you're saying. And now it's like slowly changing their belief around pain because what I don't want is for

people to think that they need to be fixed, that they need to be put in a certain position, or that if they start to feel that pain, it's because they lost that position. Because to me, that's a maladaptive belief and leads to catastrophizing and a fragile mindset. So I do all the exercises that you probably see online with PRI and anyone who does biomechanics and breathing. But I think where I am very different than a lot of people is that I put a lot of focus in my language with how I describe things and how I explain things. I never explain the rib cage to people or even posture. I actually do have a story on this. I was hanging out with someone who is a doctor,

and I was explaining the rib cage, which I never do with a client. But I was like, yeah, like you have a wide infesternal angle. And look at mine. I have a narrow infesternal angle. And I explain how that changes how the ribcage will move, how that changes where he might feel tightness, how it changes where he might be able to have restrictions.

and then we didn't get to do anything about it. I just explained it. A week later, he tells me, I haven't stopped thinking about it. I do feel all that tightness. Oh, yeah, my bad. Yeah, I would never explain that to a client that way because of what you're experiencing right now. I put that idea in your head and now you feel all this tightness that you didn't feel before. Sorry.

but this is something I tell the people that teach biomechanics and things like PRI that remember doctors, clinicians, and coaches are people too. They can adopt a fragile mindset as well. So be careful when you're teaching these things because you might get people to overthink this stuff. So make sure that before you teach this stuff, in my opinion, you should teach how pain is influenced by many factors. and I think you had him on here.

Sean Astarga. Yeah. I meant to message him. I'm like, how do you pronounce your name? Because I know I'm going to mention you. So you're right. I love his mentorship group because that's what he does. Before you learn about the rib cage and the pelvis and biomechanics,

he first talks about pain is influenced by all these factors. People are not just their assessment results. They're not just a range of motion. And the way you speak to them really impacts what people believe and how they're going to feel. And I messed up with this doctor. And I just wasn't careful. But it reminded me, oh, yeah, like I do have to be careful about how I talk about this stuff. Yeah, because I mean, the way that you're making people feel while you're talking to them is also influencing their perception of reality and their bodies. So totally makes sense. sense. I was also thinking when you're talking about pain and like people try to typically avoid

doing things they think will give them pain. That can create these holding patterns that they have where it's like they're trying to avoid a specific area of their body. And like if you're literally like removing consciousness from an area of your body, like you could imagine that's probably like decreasing innervation and blood flow and like you're kind of creating hypoxia in that area that could actually end up exacerbating things or causing pain in new areas. So I think it's really powerful to be able to bring awareness to like these tenants of the like the things that can drive pain what we might be doing subconsciously or unconsciously that are influencing our sensation of pain and like how much like going in there and kind of rewriting that can like

completely change the way that you're feeling in your body yeah yeah and I always joke about people in pain sign a conservative shift about their with their or a, about their body with me because when people are in chronic pain and they have a really massive flare up, intuitively, they don't want to move. They want to protect the area. They're really scared. And that's where if you are good at gaining people's trust, good at communicating, good at validating someone's experience without feeding into their maladaptive belief and getting people to really trust you, you now have the power to do some good. Because when I have people, I've, I have really difficult cases and they will flare up so bad that they can barely move. And bad things have been

rolled out. Most of the time, they go to the ER and they're like, you're good, it's muscular. It's the thing that you've been dealing with for 10 years. Like bad things have been rolled out. It's not a tumor growing on your collarbone. And they still don't know what to do. So now I get to tell them, I want you to come into the gym. And the first time this happens, they're like, nope, I don't think so. I'm canceling. I'm like, you're not canceling your gym membership.

I actually want you here tomorrow and Thursday. And they're like, what? But I'm in pain. I'm like, I need you in the gym. And it's a very vulnerable thing for them to say, okay, because they're allowing me to have control over the outcome because they don't know what to do. And people in pain need that kind of person. It's not tough love, but it's, I don't know what to call it, but I do it all the time. I work with a company that we share a building and two people in this company have a lot of pain.

And the first time this person had this debilitating flare up, he went to the ER, he went to his doctor, bad things were ruled out and he didn't want to move. So I went into his office and pulled him out of the office. I'm like, let's go. We're going to get on the treadmill. And they're like, I can barely walk. I'm like five minutes, just five minutes on the treadmill. And five minutes in, my pain's 50% better.

But they needed that person to be like, let's go. Come on. You can do this. But you can only get to that point. You can only have the kind of power that I have if, You are good at communicating, good at validating people's experience, having them feel seen, heard, and understood, and good at gaining people's trust. So what was that journey like for you? I imagine when you first started this, it can be scary to not want to make people worse and like maybe just like having some level of like insecurity about like, do I have the competence to deal with this demographic of people? Like, do I know what I'm doing enough to be able to actually help them? What if they get worse? What if they feel worse? Like, what does that mean about me? Like, what was the psychology around that for you?

Learning about pain was the first part. It's, and I tell people, the more you learn about pain, the more complex it becomes, but the less scary it gets. And so there's these little check marks that I have in my head. One, is it chronic? Because if it's a chronic debilitating flare-up, I'm now way less scared that it's something bad because the bad things have been rolled out. If it's an intense pain where they go to the ER and bad things get rolled out, I'm now less scared.

So those are my little check marks. And then there's things like numbness, tingling, weakness. That's a red flag. That's you need to go get medical attention. But what I'm dealing with is chronic debilitating flare ups. And those might feel like the end of the world and might look scary. like people barely being able to move and do one exercise, but to me it's not scary at all.

And with the more and more experience that I have, the less scared I am. And I sometimes am dealing with these people right in front of a physical therapist because we have a, there's an in-house physical therapy. There's three physical therapists. And I'll be talking to people about pain with pain right in front of them. And I know that they're looking,

at me and they're like, wow, she's doing a pretty good job. And if someone gets worse with chronic pain, it's not that big of an issue. It's not like I think that their bones are about to burst, even though that's what might feel like for a client who's in debilitating chronic pain. But I think just with time, I've gained confidence and more understanding of like what's really happening or what, what are the bad things that I should be scared of. And to me, it's more the numbness tingling, they're peeing themselves, that type of stuff, or they lose coordination. That's, that I would be scared of. But I'm honestly more scared of people having strokes and heart attacks. Like that, that I am scared of. Yeah. Well, I mean, this actually reminds me of the

posts that I made earlier today, which is about like the risk benefit analysis to both doing something and not doing the thing. So like you, there might be the risk of like doing a specific exercise and creating more pain, but there also could be the risk of like not doing the thing and also getting more pain. Like you don't necessarily know which direction that's going to go. And people, I think, tend to just assume that, oh, if I'm moving more, it's going to make it hurt worse. But like you have mentioned multiple times in this episode, that's not always the case. In fact, it can oftentimes get better through moving through a full range of motion in the areas that might be painful. And that is a little bit counterintuitive to people. But it's just because

of this multifactorial nature of the pain. We don't really know what's driving it. So, you know, from the nutrient delivery, oxygen delivery standpoint, from the space standpoint, like all of these things can improve through movement in the area. And so it totally makes sense that people shouldn't be scared to explore the area that's pain versus like retreating from it. Oh, your audio went away. And to add to the question that you asked before of how I've gained confidence working with these people, their story, their routine. You learn a lot by hearing what has changed in their routine. And when you hear people's story, then you can gain confidence. So an example of someone in debilitating pain where I was not scared at all.

I felt really bad for the person because it was debilitating. was a chronic issue. So pain that he had experienced many, many times. But to them, it seemed like it came out of nowhere. But one of the questions that I always ask is, has there been a change in routine? Take me through these last few weeks. And with this person specifically, he's a desk worker.

So there's some context. He's not used to moving. He gets two to three thousand steps a day. He got in a car and drove to New York. That's a lot of time in the car that he's not used to with no movement. When he was in New York, they walked around for two whole days, something he's not used to. Then immediately got back in the car, drove back, and then bam, this massive debilitating chronic pain. And when I got to hear that, like there's the likelihood of that being a serious injury.

is very low. When I hear that is, oh, lack of movement, something you're not used to being stuck in the car all day, and then a ton of walking, and then no movement at all. It makes sense. Now it's starting to make more sense why you're experiencing this. And because it's something you've experienced before and you've been dealing with this your whole life, I'm now less scared. So I'm now way less scared to get this person out of their comfort level and get them to move. And with this person specifically, I got them to come into my office because they wanted to cancel. And it was actually the first time that I couldn't put them in a position or do an exercise that wasn't excruciating. So I was a little out of my comfort zone in that way.

So I run out to see if I could see the physical therapist. she was not there. So I'm like, I'll just run this by her. And she didn't answer. So then I took a risk and I said, hey, I'm going to have you walk down the block. And he was like, no, I can't walk. I can barely like set up straight. I'm like, I know.

I know. And it might hurt a little bit at first. But I just want you to try it. And if things get worse, like it gets worse. you can go get a painkiller in the ER because he'd already been to the ER. And if it gets worse, we'll talk to Sarah, who's a physical therapist. And so he walked and then never came back. So I had to go find him.

Chair or a stool. And he's like, I can't make it back. I'm like, let's go. I'm going to have you. I'm going to help you walk. So halfway down the block, he's like, wait a minute. It's like 30% better. I'm like, really?

And in my head, I'm like, I'm like, let's keep going. Let's go three more, three more cars. And he's like, I don't want to. We go three cars. And he's like, oh, okay. It's feeling better. I'm like, come on.

Let's keep going. Just three more. And then it got to the point where it was like 50% better. And the next day, I ran everything by the physical therapist. I'm like, look, this is what I know. This is what happened. Went to the ER. Bad things were ruled out.

out and then this is how he was feeling. So this is what I did. And she's like, amazing. Yeah, that's what I would have done. Cool. And yeah, I had the risk of it getting worse, but worse as in more pain, more of a recovery process, but not worse. And I just caused severe damage because I made him walk. Makes sense. Do you have any focus on like footwear and the impact that can have on like your body and your sense of pain and posture and biomechanics, etc. Do you not really get into that in your practice? The physical therapist does. And at one point I really was obsessed about it and I made everybody get new shoes.

But I did back off a little on that. But if I do see people have really cheap shoes or old shoes, I do teach them how to find shoes, like a strong heel cup and flexible toes. I do do a little bit of that. Nice. Yeah. I mean, I've personally found a huge benefit with getting into a good shoe. I used to wear like the Adidas Ultra Boost all the time and I was getting this like nagging hip pain when I was walking. And, you know, I didn't necessarily put two and two together that it was the shoe. But the moment I got a good shoe on my foot, the pain just wasn't there at all.

So it was like, wow, like a powerful piece of evidence that like this can actually really matter, especially if you're doing a lot of walking and like a lot of repetitive motion that can really add up. Maybe to wrap up, I'd love to hear about your dreams for your practice and where you'd like to see this going. What would be like, what would be like the dream set up for you? Like if you could accomplish, you know, whatever your loftiest ideal is. What would that look like? Who would you like to work with? What would your space look like? Things like that. My dream is I would have way more machines because I was really against machines back in the day because it wasn't functional and it wasn't. full ranges or not full ranges, but it wasn't with your feet on the ground. But machines are amazing to build muscle. And machines are very expensive. So we got very lucky last year, a church was trying to get rid of their plate loaded machines. And they gave us about $50,000 worth of

equipment for $12,000. Wow. It was a pretty sweet deal. But we're outgrowing them and plate loaded is very hard to have people share and pinloaded are like four times the amount. So our dream for the near future is we have way more machines where we can have a mix of free weights, cables, machines. So from a training perspective, that would be a dream. And aside from that, just to continue to push our newfound purpose, which is we need to maintain skeletal. muscle. We need to get people to care about skeletal muscle. And we get, we have to get people to, in my biased opinion, eat meat and care about me and promote growing or raising animals so we can consume their meat. That would be my dream is that my community, my gym, pushes these things

into our community. And slowly the entire town of Lexington just believes that we should preserve skeletal muscle. We should respect farmers and support farmers and we should eat meat. Amen. I mean, on that note, thank you so much, Lucy, for coming on. I'm totally right there with you on the front lines trying to get this information into people's heads to, like, kind of fight out the propaganda that's currently swirling around with regards to like plant-based diets and not eating meat and negative effects of meat. And this also goes back to the same idea of like, okay, you're talking about the risks of eating meat. Now let's talk about the risks of not eating meat. all of these different essential nutrients that you can't find in plant foods that you can only get

through meat, largely red meat. Some, you know, molecules in like seafood and stuff. The omega-3s are really good. But avoiding animal products has many risks associated with it that the mainstream just not does not want to focus on. So we're going to do our best to have some influence where we can. And thank you so much for coming on. This was a really fun conversation. And you should come back on again soon. If you have anything else you want to talk about, just let me know. I would love that. Thank you for having me on. You're welcome. Have a great day.