Undoctrinate Yourself - #52 - MKULTRA

Episode Date: April 26, 2026

This is Lesson 9 of our course Science Silenced, unpacking the CIA's illegal & covert project MKULTRA. To view available courses head to this link: https://dralexisjazmyn.thinkific.com/

This lesson is about MK Ultra. We have a few slides, and then we're going to watch a documentary that was actually aired in the late 1970s after the program was kind of brought to light via a FOIA request. So I haven't watched it yet, but it'll be interesting to see what they say about it. It was run by like ABC back in the day, so it's kind of retro looking. But we're going to go through some slides around what the project was, what's. some of the sub-projects and the actual experiments entailed. And if you're squeamish at all, you might want to brace yourself because some of this stuff is quite grotesque. Let me go ahead and share my slides.

Okay. So just to kind of frame up how this was even born and came to be, during the Cold War era, intelligence agencies in both the Eastern and Western Blocks set up secret experiments to devise methods of mind control and brainwashing in order to gain an advantage over the enemy, or at least a perceived advantage. The most notorious of these endeavors was the Central Intelligence Agencies or CIA's Illegal MK Ultra Program, emphasis on illegal.

Also, after we go through all this, I think it's impossible to not have very, very strong questions in the front of your mind around what other illegal activities the CIA has been up to since them, because clearly they're not going to stop. Just because one project is exposed and gets some bad PR doesn't mean they have, don't have 10 others going on simultaneously in the background. And so I think that really needs to be at the forefront of our minds, just being vigilant around what is actually going on right now and how we might be affected. So MK. Ultra ran from 1953 to 1973, so for 20 years.

In its quest for a truth serum, ultimately, that could be employed to force confessions from subject. who were not cooperating, and also the desire to be able to manipulate people's behavior. The CIA experimented on thousands of subjects. Most of them were unwitting, not providing consent, and often with disastrous health consequences for those who were a part of this as a result. So some of the details here.

Alan Dulles, the Fabian, who we've definitely mentioned quite a few times leading up to this, was involved. Surprise, surprise. So he's the one who authorized this clandestine program in 1953. And in a speech delivered the same year at Princeton University, shocker, at the National Alumni Conference, Delis remarked about understanding the alleged Soviet mind control techniques. Quote, he said, we in the West are somewhat handicapped in getting all the details.

We have no human guinea pigs ourselves on which to try out these extraordinary. techniques. And of course, the solution to that is just don't tell people what you're going to do to him. It's great. They don't need to know. You're messing up their lives literally for the rest of their lives, but, you know, it's fine. We're getting valuable national security data here. So the MK Ultra program was meant to provide both human guinea pigs as well as scientific insights. And the project's aims were, quote, the research and development of chemical, biological, and radioactive materials and of techniques for the employment of

electroshock capable of producing human behavioral or psychological change. A 1970s FOIA request resulted in the release of many of the documents associated with this program. So really everything that we know about MK Ultra is from this FOIA.

But important to note here is that in 1973, when the program was kind of abruptly halted, On the orders of the, at that time, CIA director Richard Helms, most of the MK Ultra files that existed at that point were deliberately destroyed. They knew shit was about to hit the fan. There was like a big fallout from Watergate. They were worried that their actions and their initiatives were going to be kind of unveiled and exposed.

And so they shut the lights off basically overnight and started destroying as much evidence as they could of what they had been up to for the past 20 years. So if you ever needed a realization that the CIA is not working for we the people whatsoever, and they aren't even working for the government, they're their own thing, that's why Jack calls them the shadow government. They're the ones pulling the strings, figuring out the intel, you know, figuring out the methods to get the intel, and they don't have anybody to answer to.

They have been rogue since their inception in the 50s. Okay, so that was 1973. In 1975, the Church Committee and Rockefeller Commission investigated CIA abuses, including MK Ultra, which brought the project into public view. And in 1977, 20,000 financial and administrative documents were discovered that had actually been misfiled in the budget office and therefore had escaped Helms' purge of those documents in 73. So that 1970s FOIA request is,

that request found those 20,000 documents. Obviously, all the documents that had been destroyed were never found. And I remember Jack also talked about finding documents like buried underneath Tulane University and some like dilapidated tunnel that like connected to this room that had been completely off limits. But he was doing research there at the time as a resident and I guess knew some people. And so did some exploring down there in the tunnels and found this room full. of documents, a lot of which also pertained to MK Ultra. I don't know if they were among the 20,000 that were discovered in 77. They may have been ones that were somehow also partitioned and not,

you know, among the rest and kind of lost from Helms' reach. But Jack makes the point that when Katrina hit on the Gulf Coast, that all of those documents were destroyed as well. And so what we've got is, you know, what's ever left over. Hard to fathom, and we're going to discuss some of the details. Hard to fathom what the contents of those that were prioritized for destruction might have been because the stuff that survived was horrifying. So how much worse could it get? I don't even know if I want to know.

The other thing that really came to mind here as I was going through and, you know, putting these slides together was just the concept of complicity and how, many people and institutions and, you know, just individuals and groups in general have to be involved in order to get this kind of thing done. And I had a post on Instagram yesterday about like the push towards efficiency is going to be like the death of humanity, basically. And we're going to talk about that in a little while probably before we start the documentary about, you know, this push for efficiency and technology and how it's degrading our

biology as humans, but also just all biological life. It's affecting everything that's alive. But that in order to have this push be successful in the adoption of any number of kind of aberrant ideologies to actually be accepted requires people being complicit, whether you're overtly supporting the initiative or you're not speaking up when you're being called to speak up by your soul, by your conscience, whatever you want to call it. It requires so many people to be complicit in order to get these types of things done. And that's really just highlighted by the fact that more than 80 universities and other research institutions were involved in activities related to MK Ultra. And of course, there is some level of plausible deniability. And this goes back to

our last lesson about Groves and the Manhattan Project, where he kind of set this precedent showing that you can do completely terrible, treacherous, awful things. But if you keep the people involved in the dark about what they're contributing to, they don't have a guilty conscience. They're not going to go spilling secrets to other nations, potentially. They're going to be just focused on their little niche. They're going to get their data. And then when it's brought back to the centralizing force,

which in the Manhattan Project was Groves, of course, they, that individual can connect the dots and they're the only ones that see the big picture. So it's hard to say how many of the 80 universities and hundreds of faculty involved knew what they were doing, but when I go on to describe some of the details of the sub-projects, it will become very clear that many of these researchers were, I mean, frankly, evil.

The things that they were doing in order to understand, quote-unquote, the mind, and how to manipulate it, it's just reprehensible, like incomprehensible how terrible it is, and especially with the lack of informed consent with regards to the individuals participating.

So the program comprised around 150 sub-projects that had a variety of aims. For example, Sub-Project 7 explored how an individual's memory could be disturbed, how someone could discredit him or her by inducing aberrant behavior and how information could be extracted from the mind. The primary method that was used for this sub-project was dosing LSD,

which was newly discovered at the time and not popular amongst like the larger country or among just like lay people, but it was being probed in the research setting because of its potential to be able to distort consciousness, somebody's experience, and ideally, you know, they wanted to create this truth serum, so they were hoping that LSD could play a part in that. They didn't know at the time because it was very new, and they didn't have research to say one way or the other. Another example, Subproject 39 investigated the effects of several drugs and hypnosis during interrogation,

and this research was conducted on 142 criminal sexual psychopaths confined at Ionia State Hospital. the subjects were completely unaware of the fact that they were in a research study of this magnitude and of this nature, and many suffered catastrophic lifelong consequences to their health and their mental states. Just kind of absolutely unfathomable that anybody could do something like that, especially in the name of science. And this is also something that we need to recognize is that science itself is that science itself is, a tool. It's a process. It doesn't have morality. And so it's up to the scientists and the people guiding

policy and research to decide what we should look into, what we should do and where we should draw the line. Because at some point you're going to have to draw the line. But we haven't really gotten to a point where we've been comfortable saying, okay, this is where we're going to stop. And the excuse is always, oh,

well, you know, our adversaries are going to do this research. So if we don't do it first, they're going to do it first and get the data first, and then we're going to be at their whim. So that's always the kind of game that gets played. And of course, the global population at this point are the ones taking the brunt. We're the ones that are getting, you know, the fallout from that. And, you know, meanwhile, all of the elites, according to Catherine Fitz at least, have like a breakaway civilization ready to go and like underground bunkers

and like they're ready for catastrophe to strike at any time. and that's like independent of science, let's say, and it could be as a result of a natural disaster or some other type of disaster, whether that's man-made, E.T. made, or otherwise. But it's kind of like the movie Interstellar, right? Where they, you know, the elites are getting prepared to go live somewhere else on another planet,

and the world population has no idea that they're not going along for the ride, that there's no room for them. Anyway, a little bit of an aside. but just a couple highlights for sub-projects there. We're going to get into one of the other projects or maybe two on the next slides. So as I mentioned, the CIA was ultimately seeking some sort of a truth serum that they could use

on people they were interrogating, allegedly. But they also wanted to understand how to manipulate thought and narrative in general as well among a broader population. As I mentioned, many of the research subjects were unwitting. In 1973, 20 years after its inception, MKULTRA was stopped abruptly for fear of exposure following the scrutiny of the Watergate scandal, as I mentioned. And due to the destruction of the vast majority of the documents involved, or, yeah, highlighting the ongoings of the M.K. Ultra project.

The true extent of the experimentation and the resulting damage and scope and results can never truly be known, especially because most of the researchers involved at this point are going to be deceased as well. So given the lack of documentation, scrutinizing the academic output of researchers known to be involved can help to shed some light. So we don't necessarily have the MK Ultra documents themselves, but if we look at the people who were known to be involved in doing some of the research for MK Ultra and look at what they were publishing and what they were reporting, it can give you an idea of what they were up to. So one kind of infamous example is a researcher by the name of Donald U. and Cameron. he was the president of the World Psychiatric Association and a psychiatrist at McGill University's Allen Memorial Institute. When I read that, I was immediately horrified

and also just immediately reflected on the fact that psychiatry has really not improved even since the 70s or prior. You know, we're not lobotomizing people anymore, and that's great. But, you know, if you look at the tools that we are using in psychiatry, one could argue that they're equally as horrific if you look at the long-term effects, like SSRIs are one really good example. And actually, there was something I saw online today that was talking about the ramifications of SSRI use and people with the sexual dysfunction, with the detachment from emotion in general and

feeling love and feeling empathy, that, you know, if you try to eliminate the lows of emotion, that you also restrict the highs. So you can't, there's no magic pill to just remove you from experiencing the lows and like the negative emotions of life because it's a polarity, right? If you don't experience the negatives, you also can't experience the positives. And so what those drugs are doing is they're just reducing your range of emotion. They're reducing your range of human experience. And there's also direct mechanistic underpinning that shuts down essentially neuronal innervation of like the genitals. So they're creating this kind of numbness.

and like an orgasmia as well as just disinterest and sex in general. And I think people probably don't think that's a big deal until they experience it themselves. And then it's enough to like want basically want to kill yourself, right? Because you know, what an incredible way to connect with another person, especially one that you really care about is through a sexual experience that is transcendent in some way, right? And if you can't experience that, it's also really hard to experience transcendence in general. And when you're disconnected from transcendence, you're essentially disconnected from your soul, right?

Because what's the most transcendent aspect of being human? It's connection to a higher power, to a higher part of you that is kind of ineffable, but is very ever-present. And so, you know, the technology or the tools used in psychiatry today are still very barbaric, in my opinion, and nothing is actually addressing the root issues that people are experiencing with regards to a lack of meaning in their life,

with regards to, you know, immense amounts of debt. People are experiencing real issues. It's not something you need to drug. People are working jobs they hate for corporations that are, you know, working against us at every turn. And then, you know, you go to a psychiatrist and they want to numb out those feelings that you are feeling that are very valid, that are trying to drive you into something that's going to light you up more

that is going to, you know, not only support you financially, but also at a deeper level as well. So the more that you numb out from those signals, the more you're going to get stuck in a direction that, you know, your body, your spirit, your conscience, your soul, whatever you want to say, is not okay with. And so, of course, that's not a solution, right? At best, that's a very short-term solution. And the other problem with these psychiatric drugs is once you're on them, they're very, very hard to get off of. And in the case of drugs like benzos, you know, within a week you develop a severe physical dependency that if you don't wean off these drugs, you could literally die if you tried to go off them cold turkey.

So it's a whole can of worms. And so I just kind of laughed ironically to myself that this Donald Cameron character was literally present of the world, president of the World Psychiatric Association, like the expert of experts in psychiatry and psychology. and he's out here doing the most horrendous things you can imagine, which we're going to talk about in a moment. So the CIA set up a front organization to covertly finance Cameron's studies on human subjects. And it's unclear whether Cameron was actually aware of the fact that he had been conducting experiments for the CIA

because he actually died before MK Ultra was ultimately exposed. And again, this is just kind of a happy. tip to the siloing that Groves so eloquently came up with to help keep his researchers in the dark. But despite of the fact, like it doesn't really matter whether Cameron knew he was contributing to MK Ultra or not because the shit that he was doing was the darkest that you could ever imagine, which we're gonna talk about now. So Cameron led subproject 68 and within the scope of that project he developed two methods. One he called psychic driving and the other he called

depattering. So in psychic driving, this is what he devised. So Cameron subjected patients to spoken messages on loop tapes with the aim of reprogramming their personalities. For up to 20 hours a day, including during drug-induced prolonged sleep, patients would be forced to listen to the same sentence over and over again. Speakers were even placed under patient's pillows. Cameron used short-spoken messages such as, quote, it is the truth, or quote, stop. Stop. it makes me weak. Playback sessions could last over the course of more than a week. While the messages were being played, Cameron administered paralytic and sedative drugs to, quote, disinhibit the patients. Sodium amatol, for example, was used on a subject, quote, so that his defenses

might be reduced. LSD was also used on unwitting individuals. At the time, the drug was not known to the general public and patients kept ignorant of the fact that they were being dosed, let alone having consented to being subjected to any of these procedures were psychologically uprooted by its overwhelming effects because they were using quite high doses. This wasn't a fun, trippy, giddy, like experience. No. This was like mind bending, earth shattering. Obviously, you don't even know that you've been dosed. You probably just think you're losing your mind. Um, this type of experience. It's completely different than any sort of consensual recreational LSD experience. So during this psychic driving experience or process, the individual was also isolated, not only from external stimuli

by putting him in a dark room, covering his eyes with goggles, reducing auditory intake, and preventing him from touching his body, thus interfering with his image and sense of self. But attempts were also made to cut down on his expressive outflow, verbally, for example. And I'm guessing that somewhat means, like, either gagging them or, like, keeping the limbs down so that you can't, you know, move your hands, you can't speak. So this is psychic driving. Sounds like a lovely experience, right? Depattering, on the other hand, was conducted by injecting barbiturates.

So Cameron held his patients in continuous sleep for several days or even weeks, which served to ensure that they were, quote, drowsy and under control before intensive shock therapy was started. After that period of time, six strong electric shocks were then given twice a day over the course of at least a month. And psychoactive substances were sometimes used concomitantly. Can you imagine being dosed with a psychedelic and then shocked multiple times every day for a month? Talk about a bad trip. Like, I cannot even imagine what that experience would be like for a person. The electric shocks resulted in massive memory disturbances.

Cameron described three stages that his patients underwent. In the final stage, not only was any spacetime image entirely distorted, but the patients also experienced the loss of their second language and of key information about their lives. A typical patient would, quote, be unable to walk without support to feed himself. He may show double incontinence. He lives, as it were, in a very narrow segment of time and space. He cannot well record what is going on around him, and he cannot retrieve data from the past. One patient's story, his name was Bob Logie, was admitted to Allen Memorial Institute for pain in his leg that was deemed psychosomatic.

So this guy goes to the hospital with a pain in his leg. Conveniently, it's labeled a psychosomatic, and he gets funneled into this dystopian program. Bob was asleep, kept asleep for 23 days, dosed with LSD, and subjected to the recurrent messages played from loop tapes. Decades later, he still suffered from insomnia and severe depression induced by the experimental treatments. He commented, quote, I dream about it. All my waking hours, I think about it. It's eating me up. Okay. So, although M.K. Ultra officially ended in 1973, the interest in mind control and manipulation. not only persisted, but I would argue it intensified, actually. In 2011, the Defense Advanced Research Project Agency,

which Dr. Joseph Farrell calls the Diabolically Apocalyptic Research Projects Agency, which I'm stealing and using forever, which is a research body of the DOD that's tasked with the development of military technologies. So DARPA subcontracted researchers at Arizona State University to carry out a project with the aim of exploring the neuropsychiatric, psychology of narrative and persuasion. The project's findings were to, quote, help the United States government to convince world populations of its good intentions

and to dissuade key constituencies from the powerful narratives told by violent extremists. And also just a side note, anybody who said anything about the lab leak hypothesis about the jabs being, you know, experimental and toxic, would be labeled as a violent extremist, by the way. So this is a very, very vague umbrella for wanting to use persuasive techniques on large swaths of the population.

So to this end, scientists were supposed to, quote, generate the knowledge to effectively understand, model, and disrupt narratives on a neurological level and the capability to induce powerful narrative phenomena with certainty. The researchers planned to use transcranial magnetic stimulation, a non-invasive method of brain stimulation based on electromagnetic induction, to quote, selectively alter aspects of narrative structure and brain functioning

to induce or disrupt selective features of narrative processing. And now that I'm reading that, I'm just thinking, because clearly DARPA's goal was to be able to impact large populations, because they go out of their way to say, to help the U.S. government convince world populations of its good intentions, which means that you wouldn't need a technology working at a large scale. It can't be individuals going in for transcranial magnetic stimulation. It would have to be something that is, you know, permeating the environment

or something that is, what's the word I'm looking for? I mean, pervasive is fine. Anyway, I don't know what word I'm thinking of. but I can't help but think of like the 5G rollout now because we know that especially millimeter waves which are the 5G antennas they use millimeter waves in cities in urban areas they're very strong very penetrant they have high penetrance rather and so

obviously that's not magnetic stimulation per se that's radio frequencies but you know perhaps it doesn't have to be a magnetic flux. Perhaps you can use other, you know, electromagnetic frequencies, such as radio frequencies to get the job done. Anyway, I have a lot to think about now that this just occurred to me, but if this project were actually carried out, because apparently the Arizona State University

never actually did the experiments for this project, but clearly the intention was there. That was 14 years ago. If we think that that intention suddenly just vanished into the, you know, to the horizon. We're kidding ourselves. And so I think it'll be very interesting to kind of sit and think about how that might be implemented with ubiquitous technologies, which is the word I was trying to think of. And among the most ubiquitous technologies today is cell towers and in particular, the 5G rollout that happened conveniently during COVID lockdowns.

Let me check the chat. I saw something happen there. Can I see the chat, please? No. Okay. Yeah, ubiquitous. How did you know I meant to say ubiquitous? That's, yeah, thank you. Okay.

Okay, so that's something to think about. Let me know if any of y'all thinking about, they're watching this in the future when you catch the replay or Nick as well, if you think of anything else that might be ubiquitous. I mean, Wi-Fi is ubiquitous. We should actually just make a list of all. of the electromagnetic technologies that are ubiquitous. Obviously, this could also be done through propaganda, so through the manipulation of algorithms

now that everybody is plugged into social media. By manipulating algorithms, you also manipulate narratives directly, just through information exposure. So there's that, but there may be deeper ways to make people more suggestible as well, which, yeah, I mean, obviously the other kind of ubiquitous technology that got rolled out, recently were the jabs. Over 80% of Americans took at least one dose. Billions of doses were given out worldwide, so it's something to think about. Okay. But in addition to that, we also have this push towards wearables or implantables like

Neurilink and despite the fact that they're being marketed as having benevolent intentions helping people who lost the use of their limbs, for example. This technology could very easily be used towards the same ends if in the hands of the wrong entity or entities. So we can't rule that out as well. When you have something directly plugged into your biology that is working at a very fundamental level, suddenly, you know, for people who lost the use of their limbs,

they can use their hands again, but they're also getting ads for their car's extended warranty in the middle of their dreams. That's a toy example, right? It could be much worse than that. So there's a book here by Jose Delgado, written in 1969, and I believe the documentary that we're going to be watching will also highlight Jose Delgado's work. Apparently, he was never officially involved in MK Ultra. But the results of his experiment were of direct interest to the CIA and to the MK Ultra program broadly. He was the one, if you remember correctly, from Jack's exposés on this topic, that Jose Delgado was the one who implanted little kind of receivers into the brains of bulls, like the charging bulls that you would see in Spain, for example.

and he was able to stop them mid-charge with that receivers by sending a specific frequency radio signal to the receiver to shut off their aggression. And so that's what he was kind of famous for. I think we're going to see clips from that in the documentary, as I mentioned, because I watched the beginning of it, so I remember seeing that. But he wrote this book, which has a very interesting title.

Physical control of the mind toward a psycho-civilized society. Does it get any more dystopian than that? I don't know. I don't know. I ought to unpack there. Physical control of the mind, implying a connection between the mind, which is kind of this intangible,

etheric substance or locale, and being able to tap into that through the physical brain, perhaps, of a body in general, toward a psycho-civilized society. Psycho-civilized. Does that mean everybody's in lockstep? Does that mean, you know,

that everybody's the same? We're basically talking about Marxism, right, you know, in its ideal playout in that everybody is equal, everybody is same. Any contrarian thoughts or actions

are immediately pull you. to protect the ideology, to maintain the quote-unquote peace. But conveniently, there are people who are always outside of that sameness and oneness, who are the elites, who get to do whatever they want, who get to control the money, who get to, you know, do whatever they want, that the rules don't apply to them. That's the rules for thee, but not for me. Conveniently, that's always how Marxism and communism plays out. Like, I don't know, it's almost like it's a human nature thing.

and yet somehow some people still fall into the trap of thinking that's you know that's the goal that's where we need to go everything will be peaceful and harmonious the thing that people don't realize is that in order for communism to work you have to love each other right like a family unit is a communist it's it's communist in nature but the thing that holds it together is love between the individuals in the unit if you love each other you're not going to step each other in the back, you're going to want to support each other willingly. But if we're talking about an entire nation state full of people who will never meet, never know each other, it can be hard to have empathy for somebody else when you're having your own struggles. And so

it is human nature to prioritize the survival of yourself over the survival of somebody else. And so communism cannot work at scale. It is impossible because it's impossible to be consider it over millions of other people, when, especially when you're being, you know, victimized and, and, you know, drained of all you've got by your government, which is what always happens in communism. How many times do we have to replay that tape in order to understand that this is not going to work? And actually, so on that post that I made yesterday,

about, like, the push towards efficiency and how this is like a neo-Marxist idea and ideology, I had a couple really insightful comments on the post, and one of them was from a woman who grew up in the Soviet Union, and she talked about how just awful it was and how she lives here in the United States now, and she sees us devolving exactly into that old model, and she cannot believe it. She can't believe that people don't see it.

And I think for that reason, the Eastern European countries now are among the most, based and awake because it's very visceral. That experience is very recent for them. It's in the past century. And so because that experience is so present in their bloodlines or in their direct experiences, because some of these people are still alive, of course, many of them are still alive. Soviet Union didn't fall until, you know, Reagan's administration. And so in that case, they're like, uh-uh, we're not doing that. We're not going back to that. We know how that ends. Everybody in America, I mean, not everybody, but a large swath of the population is like completely blissfully unaware of the direction that we're heading if we keep going and doing the things that we're doing.

And so it's very interesting to see. I think people are also waking up, though, and I think the American spirit is actually pretty strong. It is being squashed largely by our technology and by our environments. but it's still alive. So it'll be very interesting to see how things play out because at some point I think the vast majority of the population is going to put their foot down and be like, no, we're not doing this.

And it's probably going to be when the brain chips roll out. I think the technocrats vastly overestimate the number of people who will be like, yay, give me my brain chip, I can't wait. It's not happening. It's not happening. I think they think it's going to happen, but it's just not happening. Okay, and so with that, let's head over to the documentary.

I think I have it pulled up here. Whoops. Yes, I do. Okay, so let me stop sharing and go to share this other one. This is it. All right. Oh, there's something in the chat. The subtitle is insane.

I agree. Okay. Oops. Can I press play? Okay. This is the story of a 30-year search by U.S. intelligence agencies to perfect mind control. Some of those engaged in that search have agreed to talk about it for the first time. One said, I think every last one of us felt sorry to attempt this kind of thing.

We knew we were crossing the line. Just... Can we just, like, pause there? Every single one of us knew that we were... crossing the line, and yet they did it anyway. Oh, humans can be so frustrating. It's that group thing, that lockstep, where it's like you're scared to speak out and, you know, act in alignment with your conscience because you don't want to stand out and be singled out

from the group. It's that fear of ostracization, ostracization that is like deep within our DNA because ancestrally, if you were ostracized from your group, from your clan, you basically die. You can't be alone. We're very social creatures. And so we often bend our wills to meet the social paradigm at hand. And it's got to stop at some point. Like at some point, somebody has to be the one to say no. And then once one person stands up, it's much easier for then momentum to build. Because now, you know, if one person sticks their neck out, then the second person doesn't feel as vulnerable because one person already did it.

And so it builds momentum. But at some point, you got to stand up for what you believe in. What you know is right. And, you know, clearly that didn't happen in this case. And if you look at history in generally, it very rarely happens. If you look at Stalinist Russia, if you look at the Holocaust,

I mean, you just go back for all of the documented human history and civilization, which we should keep going through the same thing over and over again. atrocity after atrocity because people are fearful of being singled out in some way. It's pretty wild to think about. Search would be else from brothels.

An agent says we learned a lot about human nature in the bedroom. That reminds me. One of the subset operations of MK Ultra was Operation Midnight Climax. Definitely check out, what is the name of him? There's a man who was on Joe Rogan's podcast that actually wrote a really good book that I very much enjoy about the Manson family and M.K. Ultra. Nick will probably know the name because I feel like you can just like extract things from my mind somehow and then just type them in the chat. But so Operation Midnight Climax is when they had a bunch of Johns, so like John Does,

in a brothel and they dosed them with LSD and watched them how like literal CIA agents watched John Does having sex with prostitutes while tripping on LSD. for research purposes. Like, okay, sorry you have repressed kinks, dudes. Like, can you, like, kind of exercise it in a different way? But I don't know what they found from those experiments. And maybe they're going to talk about it in this. I don't know.

But just another example of how just preposterous this entire program was. To the mystical rights of a magical mushroom ceremony performed by an Indian shaman. To a Spanish bull right, the bull has had a lot of. That's Jose Delgado. That's Jose Delgado. By a scientist. There would be victims. Yes.

Intelligence agency try to peel this man's mind back to reveal its deepest secrets. This man worked on some of these programs. He would write of his work. It was fun, fun, fun, fun. Fun, fun. Wow. Oh, shit. Hold on. Let me pause. Can I pause this? No response. Okay, so Nick wrote in the chat. Interesting to note, M.K. Ultra ended in 73, and Tuskegee trials ended in 72.

All of these experiments were surely, where surely people knew what they were doing, was inhumane, and yet they kept going. 100%. No, not Julian Michaels. Actually, where's my phone? Do I have it? it's so the book was called like hold on let me just find it really quick

the book is called chaos Charles Manson the CIA and the secret history of the 60s and it was by Tom O'Neill that's right so Tom O'Neill's book very very good check out his episode with Joe Rogan it was a few years ago

but it was a very very good episode um great note about the to ski experiments. Equally horrific. Scope or I need help. With all these different dog foods, I don't know what kind of... We're watching commercials right now?

Actually, these will be kind of fun to psychoanalyze, so let's watch them. Usually, I'm very anti-ad, but I don't have an option to skip them either, so... Oh, no. But Cycle 2 dog food is especially for dogs age just 1 to 7. By mine. The Cyco 2 formula has just what dogs in their active years need to help stay healthy. Oh, look, junk food for dogs. Now it's cycle two in 25 pound bags.

We are not professing to tell you the complete story of these activities. We are professing to tell you the complete story that we know. But these records that we've uncovered don't tell the story. They tell pieces of it. This is a story that has been told in bits and pieces. This is an attempt to pull most of it together. We know we don't have the full story. We do, however, have some striking new.

revelations and insights. The story begins here, just off the nation's front yard, the mall. The buildings behind me were the headquarters for the World War II Office of Strategic Services. It was here that the first halting steps toward mind control began. The shaper and boulder of OSS was General Wild Bill Donovan. He said of his group's work, That's one way have made mistakes, but we were not afraid to try things that were never done before. That's one way to put it. Donovan appointed this man, Stanley Lovell, a Boston industrialist, to break new ground in many scientific and technical fields. Donovan called Lovell here's Dr. Moriarty, after the fiendish professor in Sherlock Holmes.

Lovell liked the name and posed for this Saturday evening post photo. He later wrote of his OSS job that it was, quote, to stimulate the peck's bad boy beneath the surface of every American scientist, and to say to him, throw all of your normal law-abiding concepts out of the window, here's a chance to raise merry hell. It was in this atmosphere that the search for mind control began. This bizarre man would be an active participant in that search over the next two decades.

His name is George White, an OSS captain who had formerly been with a Bureau of Narcotics. In his diaries, seen here publicly for the first time, White left a legacy of the darker side of American intelligence work. He received his early OSS training at the British-run school at Oshawa, Canada, the same school where Ian Fleming, the creator of James Bond, was trained. White referred to the school in his diaries as the Osher School of Mayhem and Murder. What the hell? Mike Burke, Homer OSS colleague of whites, and now president of Madison Square Guard. and center.

Very compelling fellow, a mysterious fellow, almost mystical fellow. He was fascinating because you didn't even know something about him at all, not enough about him to really get a fix on. These haircuts are awful. He also knew a great deal about the swifter elements of society, the gamelyer side of life. And he was very impressive in his technical knowledge of the underworld, so to speak. He said, one of our men gets beat up. He says, you have to act real fast and teach these guys a lesson.

Charles Siragusa, a former narcotics officer and friend of whites. He'll come around and he says, and break your kneecaps. And what that one guy laughed. And George went always had a little Billy with him. And this one guy sort of snaked, George Wright turned out and wiped him across the neck with it. And he picked up a pool steak and start beating everybody up. He made his point. And he made his point.

George White was not a man of understatement or subtleties. His boss at OSS, Stanley Lovell referred to him as deadly and dedicated. In this note from White's diaries, it says, Cole Lovell regarding TD. TD was a rather transparent cover for truth drug. George White worked with the truth drug committee here at St. Elizabeth's Hospital in the nation's capital. They experimented with mescaline, scopolamine, and marijuana on unwitting victims. The committee soon learned there was no easy panacea, no truth drug at this stage.

But White and later colleagues would not stop trying. The goal remained the same. As this 1952 CIA memo says, the aim is controlling an individual to the point where he will do our bidding against his will, and even against such fundamental laws of nature as self-preservation. But it was a discovery here in Basel, Switzerland, at Sandoz Laboratories by Dr. Albert Hoffman, that led the intelligence agencies of America to believe that they had found the panacean. The discovery was lysergic acid diethalamide, LSD. The film that you see is considered by many experts to be the closest illustration of the effects of a hallucinogenic.

I disagree completely. The first times that anybody had run into a powerful drug that was different to anything else that they knew anything about. John Giddinger recently retired chief psychologist for the CIA. This is the first time Gittinger has been interviewed publicly. Who could disable a whole city by putting... Actually, I just want to make the note that it's very obvious that none of these researchers actually took the drugs themselves, like, consensually, like willfully. But therein actually lies a difference, because if you're being dosed without knowing, you're going to have a very different experience, especially when it's combined with things like Electroshock and looping audios and other dystopian things. but I think one thing that they're probably

underestimated quite a bit is the fact that psychedelics actually you know connect you more to your higher self in a way or to your heart center at the very least so that would be the opposite of what they would want

if they're trying to control somebody but again that could probably be manipulated by doing other things to the person to disconnect them from that. So anyway, I think a good baseline for research, especially with human subjects, is if you wouldn't have the procedure or the intervention done on yourself,

you shouldn't be doing it on somebody else. That's a pretty good moral baseline, I would say. A very small amount on water supply. After all of these years of us, those of us who are involved in looking for this secret drug, This was the only thing that began to look for the first time like it might be something like that. DIA's interest in LSD was intense. The worry was that the Russians would get hold of it.

Were the Soviets into LSD? I don't have to say I'm sure they were, but if you ask me to prove it, I've never seen any direct proof of it. But at one point, intelligence information received from Switzerland said that Sandoz's laparthe, was about to put 100 million doses of LSD on the open market. And it caused enough concern within the agency that the United States was prepared to buy the entire supply. However, a slight mistake had been made. I really want to know what led them to even think that LSD would be like the panacea truth drug. Like what information did they become privy to that would make them think that to begin with?

I'll look into it a little bit, see if I can find anything. There's got to be something. If they're willing to buy the lot, I'm sure that's quite a bit of taxpayer money that they're spending there, or maybe they just printed it. It's possible. They probably just printed it. But they must have had some pretty strong motivations to want to do that.

The mistake has made public for the first time. I just found out on a new CIA document that there were no such large quantities of LSD on the market. Joan Marx is, while Newmark, freedom of information suits against the CIA and is on earth much new material. He is the author of The Search for the Manchurian candidate. Ooh. History of intelligence agency work with mind control.

We should read that. He is a consultant for this report. What happened is that there was a military attach in Switzerland, an American officer who got milligrams and kilograms mixed up. In other words, you made a mistake of thinking one, one thousandth of a gram was the same as 1,000 grams. Oh my God. A mistake of a million times.

So when the CIA got the intelligence that there were 100 million doses on the market, in fact, there were 100 doses. Nah. The man who would oversee the CIA's research into drugs and most of the agency's behavior programs is this man.

Dr. Sidney Gottlieb, a chemist. Oh! Declined ABC News. I didn't know he was a chemist, but he's quite famous in this a whole world. Quest for an interview. In their never-ending

search for the miracle weapons CIA operative searched here in the remote mountain areas of southern Mexico but what up to then had been considered a myth, magic mushrooms. A myth? They used this man, a part-time chemist for the CIA to dupe this man,

a vice president of a bank and an amateur mycologist or mushroom expert to try to get to the magic mushrooms and turn them into a drug. But it would be the amateur, R. Gordon Watson and his colleagues who would win the race. Oh shit. The drug Silocybin from the magic mushrooms.

We went into the Mazatec area, far from the highways, remote from Mexico City. There we found that rotten bagasse, as it's called bagasse. Covered with mushrooms, these mushrooms, I didn't know, had never seen. They were the sacred mushrooms. Lawson would also discover and record the ancient mystical rites of the mushrooms from a local shaman or magical priestess, Maria Sabina. And we're seeing incredible sights. They would go slowly or they would go fast as I are dayed.

All your senses are rendered acute. We say that you see visions, you see hallucinations. But that doesn't begin to tell this story. The hallucinations are only part of it. You hear sound. You smell things. The night was thrilling. Word of Watson's discovery reached the CIA quickly.

Dr. James Moore, a University of Delaware chemist, secretly served the CIA preparing deadly chemicals on short notice. Moore was instructed to get close to Watson and accompany him on another trip to Mexico to get the magic mushrooms. I had no idea that Watson's team was like, infiltrated with CIA people. It's pretty interesting. No wonder none of the indigenous tribes

anywhere in the world trust us at all. Nor should they. It's a whole mess. Internal documents show the CIA felt a drug derived from the mushrooms could remain an agency secret. What in the world were they looking for with the magic mushrooms?

I think the best answer to that is that they were looking for fundamental information on compounds that would be capable of causing changes in behavior, changes in mental attitude. Did you ever consider what would have happened if any of these substances were given to say unwitting people? No, I don't remember having considered that specifically. I, what if you...

I trust perhaps you've thought about it. well i haven't worried about uh i you course of course he hasn't worried about it he's like i'm not gonna be one of the unwitting subjects so why do i care what would i have thought had i known that the any of these substances would it have been given to unwitting persons uh you mean a a hostile agent and of another government no i think that was probably i mean testing it out on american citizen I guess I must seem very, very cold-blooded about this, but I don't recall ever having been very much preoccupied with that issue. Yeah, Nick in the chat just said, this is reminiscent of watching a Sam Altman or Peter Thiel interview. Couldn't agree more.

Oh, my gosh. It's like, okay, we can clearly see that y'all are lying and like trying to tiptoe around the truth at the very very least or be, I don't know, what's the word, diplomatic in some way, but it's so obvious. I mean, maybe they're just hoping we think that they're autistic, but I mean, they might be autistic, but also nefarious. Like, there's no way around it. But many drugs were tested in this way. A decision was made at the hospital. Yeah, exactly. You can't pause for 10 seconds before answering if you think that, I think for teal it was like do you even think humanity should exist in the future he's like uh well uh er uh

um highest levels of the CIA to do testing on unwitting Americans as one CIA document says such testing would be operationally realistic a former CIA official who worked on these programs describes for the first time how the decision was made he did not wish to be filmed or recorded Thus his remarks are read by someone else. I think every last one of us felt sorry to attempt this kind of thing. We knew we were crossing a line. Every decent kid knows he shouldn't steal, but he does it sometimes. We knew damn well we didn't want anyone else.

You're not kids, you're freaking adults. Bad analogy. To know what we were doing. The decision was made to do testing on unwitting victims. It was decided they should be on the fringes of society. Because they were most vulnerable. It was the borderline underworld. Prostitutes, drug addicts, and other small timers would be rivalous to seek any kind of revenge.

Small timers? Oh my God. This is like almost unlistnable. In case they found out. And as their predecessors had a decade earlier, the CIA turned to George White for help. White was now a high-ranking narcotics official. And by this time, the stories about George White We're legendary.

So the waiter says, you may help you, monsieur. And George White was busy talking with me. They know, attention to the waiter, so the waiter tapped him on his shoulders, says, you know, may I help you, monsieur? And George White turned around, whipped his gun out and stuck it in the guy's face like this, and this crowded restaurant. What? George White did not mind bending the law, and he knew the street well.

He was the ideal choice for what the CIA had. imagine being so protected by intelligence that you can literally do whatever the hell you want and you don't have to worry about consequences. That must feel, you probably feel like a god, right? But that's a very dangerous place to be because the moment they don't need you anymore, you know, that could be it for you. But pretty crazy that this guy was some big wig instead of in jane. where he clearly belonged based on his actions. Let's see how it continues. We were Ivy Lee, white, middle clans.

We were naive, totally naive about this, and he felt pretty expert. He knew the whores, the pimps, the people who brought in the drugs. White set up so-called safe houses for the CIA in New York, here in Greenwich Village. And later, in San Francisco, in this hotel. And in an apartment,

atop telegraph hill with a commanding view of San Francisco Bay. While the existence of these safe houses was disclosed last year, details of what took place within them has not been told. A former CIA official who worked in the safe houses reveals that they were used not only for drug testing, but to study sexual behavior and how it could be used to manipulate people. We did quite a study of prostitutes in their behavior. How do you take a woman who is willing to,

to use her body to get money out of a guy to get him to talk about things which are much more important, like state secrets. He learned a lot about human nature in the bedroom. We started to pick up knowledge that could be used in operations. There would be victims in all of this,

but as the agency knew, they couldn't fight back. Some entries from George White's diaries. Clarice gets horror. He kept diaries? This just seems out of character. He's putting guns up to people's faces in crowded restaurants and also keeping a diary.

Janet, sky high. As one agency memo says, we have no answer to the moral question. The safe houses were not the only testing rounds. Millions of dollars would be spent on LSD research at universities throughout the country. And word would begin to spread on campus about this so-called mind-blowing drug. And suddenly, it was the counterculture of the 60s. I give the CIA a total credit for sponsoring and initiating the entire consciousness movement, counterculture events of the 1960s. Dr. Timothy Leary, the 1960s Johnny Appleseed of LSD.

The CIA funded and supported and encouraged hundreds of young psychiatrists to experiment with this drug. The fallout from that was that the young psychologists began taking it themselves, discovering that it wasn't a intelligence, enhancing consciousness, raising experience. I know that some of the studies in which the CIA had supported used as subjects people who later became strong proselytizes of LSD. So, you know, in that sense, yes, I think it did sustain the perpetuation of the use of the drug. And it's rather ironic, isn't it? And the counter case that I would make in relationship to that is to remember that the people who were doing the research were people who would be doing the research regardless of who was a sponsor.

I don't think anybody working in that time in the remotest ever thought that it would blow up into the kind of thing that it did. history will judge the role of the CIA and other intelligence agencies in unwittingly contributing to the counterculture of the 60s through their intense interest in LSD and other hallucinogenics. But for the moment at least, the argument can be made that the CIA helped usher in the age of Aquarius. ABC News close up will continue in a moment. I feel like I'm going to sound kind of paranoid saying this, but I feel very skeptical of the recent

normalization of psychedelics in the mainstream through like MAPS's work and through like the PTSD roots. And I'm not saying that these drugs, these medicines can't be helpful in some context, but I'm very skeptical at the state government sanctioned use of them

and acceptance of them. And I can't help but feel like in the counterculture, they saw this mass impact, right? They saw this mass response to LSD being introduced and other psychedelics being introduced into the populace. And then, of course, they locked that shit down for decades. You know, these drugs were made, you know, the most illegal. Schedule 1, like no medical use, no nothing. and now the fact that those are being, those laws are being loosened up, it makes me feel like whatever research they were doing

to understand how to leverage psychedelics for their own benefit, for maybe shifting narratives, et cetera, and mindsets, that perhaps they figured out how to do it better at scale. Anyway, I feel like this sounds paranoid. I'm going to have to think about it more, but I just don't think that it's a coincidence. And I don't think it's just a matter of policy and, you know, good-hearted people doing a lot of grassroots work to make this possible. And there certainly are people doing really good grassroots work to help people with PTSD and depression and, you know, other issues. But, again, the state sanctioned and institution sanctioned use of these things,

feels very gross to me. It gives me the ick. I don't trust it. So, anyway. Being careful about my body doesn't just mean major things like regular breast exams. I'm even careful about pain relievers. Plain aspirin sometimes upset my stomach. So I use buffering. It adds protection. Why do I feel like watching this ad was like programming me? Or Tidal, exactly. For people who watch this in the far future, Today is the 25th of September, and recently Trump and Bobby Kennedy released an announcement around the use of Tylenol during pregnancy, contributing to autism among children.

And in response to that, there are a bunch of women on the left downing bottles of Tylenol online while pregnant as a way to say, like, screw you, it's safe. Meanwhile, a massive meta-analysis was published this summer, last year, and in 2021, around this association of Tylenol use during pregnancy and autism, as well as ADHD among children who were exposed in utero. So, yeah, that's what we're dealing with now culturally at this moment in time where we're recording. I want. Tylenol doesn't. Screw you, Tylenol. I can't believe that Tylenol never provides

and protect your ingredient. Buffering. Now I'm careful to get both with buffering. I can't think that. I can't believe that. I can't believe that either. What the hell? Plummer. Don't.

You may not work on this bomb. No? What the fuck with bummer's quiet, it's not melting that grease. Dreyfuss is! It's not so fun! Will Drenno hurt metal pipes? Oh. So let's know break that grease clock.

I'm switching to Dreno. Make clocks go. Better use Drano. Saturday live on E.C. Forestville spends invitation from the legendary Westside tennis club. I win live. Ground coverage of the most prestigious ladies' coffee event. Well, Sisi goes for her third straight U.S. Women's Open

title, Red Hot Pansio Pets shoots for a relucing first-f inventory. Not ABC's wide world of sports. Cormio excitement for the Wild West. Plus ice and eats, high thrills, hide your plane action, championship tennis, go on ABC's wide world of sports. It's Saturday. Wow.

Wednesday on eight is enough. The Bradford girls go... This is such a blast from the past watching these commercials. I feel kind of weird. I don't know. This is bizarre. Disco crazy. Hi, uh, huh.

When you say we get a town. The summer's off to a red hot start. And Charlie's Angels play the horses. I want to be a Jackie. But end up in a dead heat with death. Then the coast of Jack the Ripper haunts the back streets of Vegas.

Tomorrow starting at 8. 7. Central and Mountain. Oh, yeah. You're right. There was no music. in the background. Very weird. I feel like everything is super cringy and like it just feels very

propaganda. Just straight dialogue. Yeah. And it's like hyperbole. All the commercials are like hyperbole too, which is interesting. Did you see that obelisk? The Washington Monument? According to Joseph Farrell's work, if you

well, it's not his work, but he's done the research, report on this that if you look at the very tall, skinny pointed pyramids, obelisks like the Washington Monument, that that shape is associated with something that acts as an antenna. And a wide, flat pyramid can act as a receiver. And that the Great Pyramid of Giza actually has the exact proportions that combine both the reception, the receiver, and the antenna capabilities. Just a little fun fact.

One can get sidetracked by the so-called glamour and mystery of espionize work or by the exotic qualities of some drugs. But what you can't lose sight of is what all of this would mean in terms of individual human beings. There would be deaths. There would be long-lasting and harmful effects. The best known case is that of this man, Frank Olson, a chemist employed by the Army Chemical Corps, who in 1953 was slipped LSD unknowingly at a meeting with CIA officials. What? Shortly after that, Olson went into severe depression. He ended his life at this New York hotel

by diving through a shaded, closed window in his 10th floor room. Oh, my God. Frank Olson was the first known fatality in the CIA's LSD program. Olson left behind a widow, Alice, and three children. But it would be years before they learned the real story of his death. Oh. Shortly after his suicide, Alice Olson was visited by Dr. Sidney Gutley, the man who had administered the drug,

and by Robert Lashbrook, his deputy, who was the last person with Frank Olson, the night of his death. It was probably to check me out and see whether I was handling myself and handling the situation, whether I was hysterical. And I'm sure they left the house feeling ever so much better because I had been gracious and hospitable to them so that I must have played right into their hand and made them feel fine.

23 years later, did you? People talked so differently back in the 70s. Like, actually just anytime pre-90s, probably. I feel like everybody, like, articulated words differently. It almost sounds like an accent of some sort. Almost, like, it's slightly British, but not. It's very bizarre. I thought it was just an actor and actresses thing,

but she clearly was talking like that, and, I mean, maybe she was doing it just for the camera, but I think it's just interesting to see how language shape shifts over time. And you can clearly see that we're being dumbed down culturally, like crazy. People don't, they actually notice because I have a 14-year-old steps on, everything gets abbreviated in text messages. They don't even spell out all right.

It's just A-L-R. Like, bro, your generation is so lazy. And it's probably because they're bio-energetically collapsing because it's cumulative over the generations, right? So it's this push towards efficiency. At some point, if your biology becomes so impaired, you actually rely on efficiency in your systems to get by, right? Because you don't even have the fortitude to do the things that you would have been able to do

if your mitochondria were actually, you know, functional at a high level. So it's a very interesting and complex issue. How do you get from about that thing? My anger was unbelievable at how I had been duped for this length. of time and the anguish which was unnecessary. And he knew during all of those years never told Alice Olson the real story of her husband's death. She would discover it by accident more than two decades later.

In essence, it was a 22-year-long cover-up. Wow. Lyman Kirkpatrick was Inspector General of the CIA at the time of Frank Olson's death. But had not the Olson case occurred within the secret confines of the CIA, would not this case have been a prosecutable case? Perhaps, I would think, were definitely prosecutable, and certainly from the point of view of Mr. Olson, why it should have probably been actionable.

So what he's saying is it was a crime, but because the CIA did it, they're above the law. Good to know. The suicide, slow down the CIA's testing of LSD and other drugs, but only momentarily. The CIA was not the only government agency interested in the possibilities LSD and other drugs presented for mind control. The Army Chemical Corps first started working with the CIA and then branched off on its own. It too tested drugs on unwitting victims and a death would result.

Just try to like imagine this. You have a meeting with some people and during or after that meeting suddenly you start tripping balls and you don't know why it's happening, which means that you just think you're going mad, right? You think that your biology is failing you, that it's betraying you. You don't know if you're going to live or die. And then eventually, for LSD, 12 hours later,

the experience ends. And from that point on, you just live in fear thinking this could happen to me at any time, any day, and I have no control over it because you don't know that you were drugged with something. And especially at that time, because this drug was totally new, right? So people wouldn't have even had the inkling that this is something that could be induced pharmacologically.

And yeah, of course, as Nick has said, you're being fed subliminal messages the whole time too. Yeah, exactly. So no wonder he wanted to kill himself. I can't even imagine living like that. It's just absolutely horrific to think about. The case of this man, Harold Blower, a tennis. Pro, seen here with his daughter Elizabeth, is well known. In 1953, Blower was a private patient at the New York State Psychiatric Institute.

He was given five injections of a mescaline derivative that was being tested secretly for the Army Chemical Corps. With the fifth injection, Harold Blower died. As with the Olson case, a 22-year cover-up followed. Oh! Until finally, the Army admitted the real details of Blower's death. Since the initial news stories of Harold Blower's death, close to 5,000 documents previously classified,

have been released by the Army and obtained by ABC News. They provide valuable insight into Army activities at the time of Blower's death and where the Army went from there with their own drug testing program. From a previously classified deposition of Dr. James Ketel, who administered the mescaline derivative, on the purpose of the drug testing, to produce symptoms similar to those that you see in schizophrenia. Great.

On how much the patient knew about all this. We didn't delineate all the possibilities of what might happen because then you contaminate your experiment. Cattel then relates that he never even knew what drug he had given Harold Blower because of the secrecy of the Army experiments. We didn't know whether it was dog piss. This was secret. This was a secret.

We weren't in on it. Oh. We asked Blower's daughter Elizabeth. for her reaction. What? How can anybody react to that? I mean, it's so far from what you'd expect from a human being, never mind a doctor,

never mind a professional specialist who's supposed to care about people's minds. It's unbelievable. A suit filed by Elizabeth Barrett against the Army Chemical Corps is now pending in federal court. Other Army experiments continued on mental patients in the country. These must have been the Tulane Medical Center in New Orleans

involve several drugs. These must have been the documents that Jack found underneath in the tunnels, underneath this school. Synogenetics and electrodes implanted in the brain. The chief researcher was Dr. Russell Monroe, now head of the psychiatry department at the University of Maryland. These are various progress reports written by Dr. Monroe and recently obtained by ABC News.

from one of the progress reports A report of a woman who had electrodes implanted in the brain and was then given LSD and other drugs She became agitated Cry Lapsed into a trance-like state Oh It's if she were about to have a convulsion

Experienced waves of darkness and light And bizarre sensations in her neck and legs said somebody was trying to manipulate her body. At this point, Dr. Monroe wrote that the woman was obviously having paranoid ideas. What? As a lame person. She had electrodes in her brain.

They were manipulating her body. How was that paranoid? What? That was his response. What? That was his response? I didn't even try. Yes, I mean, they were told that they would be given some medications.

Specifically, LSP? Well, we told them, I don't think that they would have even known what LSD was then at the time. They were told that they were going to give, they would be given some medications, which might make them feel worse. Dr. Minow, what do you think the Army Chemical Corps was looking for in all of this testing? They were looking for an incapacitating agent. an agent that would not harm the person permanently, but would incapacitate them temporarily. That seemed like a humanistic way to wage a war. Why is he laughing?

And also, if you wanted to incapacitate somebody, then you would give them a sedative. You wouldn't put electrodes in their brain and give them a psychedelic drug. He's lying out his ass right now. James Thornwell was given LSD by Army Intelligence in 1961. This time it was no experiment. This time, the express purpose was to peel back Thornwell's brain to bear any secret within it. This time, the Army had gone operational.

Thornwell, as reported on ABC last January, was an Army private station in Orleans, France. Classified documents were missing from his unit. Thornwell became a suspect. His two and a half month interrogation included administration of sodium pentothal, hypnosis, isolation, and deprivation of sleep. Oh. Army documents obtained by ABC News refer to this interrogation as conventional. What?

As sick of severe questioning, Army intelligence was getting nowhere with Thornwell, and it was decided to Slipham LSD. For 16 years, Thornwell never knew what had hit him. Tell me about what he asked. Yeah. Torture equals convention. Nick said in the chat. That's about right. The ick that I have right now is so strong. I didn't think that I could freaking hate, hate this system and the quote unquote experts even more than I already do, but man, and just the realization that it's not gotten better since

then. It's actually just gotten way worse, but more hidden, more low-key. Oh, Robert Nott, it's a bad trip. Bad trip. That was a bad trip. The pain was so excruciating, felt like somebody was sticking me with a million pens. And now just everywhere. Oh, just walked over. I lived through it.

I lived through it. No charges were ever brought by the Army against Thornwell. He was discharged for psychological disorders. But an Army psychiatric evaluation of Thornwell obtained by ABC News, one which was done prior to Thornwell having been given LSD, says of them, fairly cooperative, oriented, alert, and gave no evidence of psychosis or depression. From the Army's point of view, this type of LSD interrogation was a success. Other documents refer to the exploitability of interrogation subjects, cracking them, keeping them off balance mentally, in providing an economical, speedy, and productive aid to interrogation.

From James Thornwell's point of view, it was no success. Thornwell still has serious problems. He's run through two marriages. He maintains he can't hold a job, can't concentrate, has nightmares, and feels socially and emotionally isolated. Last fall, Thornwell filed suit against the government in federal court. In a moment, we will examine the closest experimentation of brainwashing, that we have uncovered.

Great, more commercials incoming. Wow. It says something wrong, Will. You pick up a paper these days. You learn life isn't as simple as it used to be, and neither's food. Is that why you eat grape nuts cereal? Yep, you couldn't ask for a simpler cereal. My grandma ate that.

My mom's added, no preservatives. Sure looks simple. It's got a natural nutty taste. What's good for breakfast, guys? How about something nice? A grape nuts. Simple cereal. You're so right.

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This is a heavy-duty stick-up. This is a good place for it. Heavy-duty stigups from Airwick for small places with big odors. This is David Shumacher. In the news at this hour, district police have charged a young Northeast woman with the weekend kidnapping of that day old baby. So it's to say the woman was a pregnant and afraid she'd lost her own child in the accident, and that's what motivated to kidnapping. It was the night before Skylab, and we'll have the latest on its fate and ours.

Testimony before Congress today on Battered Wives, some of the victims are battered wives. A rock and roll star put on probation for income tax evasion. The condition is he must put on a thousand hours of concerts for charities. We'll be talking with a local teenager who won a gold medal at the Pan Am game. Join us at 11. Wait, if I evade taxes, can I just do consultations for free for a year? For the sun Nothing else

Like a lot like mountain do And this Stopian much These are the lazy afternoon By far The most chilling experiments we have uncovered Took place at this gothic estate Called Ravens Craig

Halfway up Mount Royal in Montreal It houses the Allen Memorial Institute of Psychiatry of McGill University. It was here that the CIA funded a series of experiments, severe experiments. The work was done by the institute's then director, Dr. Ewan Cameron. It is the closest experimentation to brainwashing yet disclosed. His work, unprecedented in psychiatry, consisted of three areas which he called sleep therapy, psychic driving, and the ultimate, deep. patterning. Dr. Maurice D'Hengier, current head of the Allen Memorial Institute.

In his psychic driving, so-called type of therapy, he would give the patient intensive electric treatment in order to make the patient regress deeply, become forgetful. And then he would attempt to implant new ideas, in the mind of the patient. Now, to a layman, it would appear that Dr. Cameron was trying to take the slate and wipe it clean, the slate being the mind. In other words, brainwashing. Exactly, that's a very good comparison.

Brainwashing. Yes. Val Orliko of Winnipeg, Canada, the wife of a member of the Canadian Parliament, was a patient of Dr. Cameron's. Oh! She entered the Allen Memorial Institute because of severe depression. She describes for the first time publicly the LSD therapy and psychic driving treatment that she was given by Dr. Cameron. And then the drug began to take hold very rapidly because it was an IV injection.

And things became very furry and very frightening and had a lot of sensations that it's very difficult to recall. Nobody explained it to me. nobody ever asked me if I was willing to do it or anything. His feeling that he would be able to get full resistance of illness and to reach deep changes very quickly. Yeah, right. I don't think that when you look at that in retrospect, the hopes that he had had been in any way fulfilled.

He was probably just a sicko that liked hurting people. But Cameron, we plunge on. The next step was what he called psychic driving. This involved almost endless tape recorded messages and more drugs for the patient. Cameron wrote that this was the way to make direct control changes in personality. I thought this was the coldest and most impersonal treatment that anybody could give to anybody in the world. And I became more and more despondent and more angry. I just became so despondent that I just became so despondent that I,

I thought I can't live like this any longer. And I thought I would just go out and throw myself underneath the cars on McGregor. I stood on the curb of that street and I stood there. And I thought, okay, go, okay, go. And then I thought, what if you're not killed? What if you're just maimed? What if you don't die and you live and you can't even talk anymore? And I couldn't do it.

The most severe technique Cameron used was depattering. He described it as breaking up the existing patterns of behavior by means of intensive electroshock therapy with prolonged periods of sleep. He carried out these experiments in something he called the sleep rooms. People in there were like babies, they cried, and they were very disoriented.

Oh. We were very afraid of the sleep room. We used to walk very carefully against the side of the corridor that was opposite the sleep room with our backs to the wall when we go by. Cameron used this combined sleep electroshock treatment on patients as long as 30 days.

One patient he kept asleep for 65 days. Cameron retired and his successor, Dr. Robert Clayhorn, ordered a follow-up study on the patients treated with Cameron's depattering method. It showed that it was no more beneficial

in its result than the use of more conservative methods. But they follow-up study showed that 60% of those who had been deep patterns still had amnesia for periods of anywhere from six months to 10 years. That's quite a memory loss, isn't it? That is a memory loss. Indeed it is. It's more, I think, more than desirable.

In retrospect, does Dr. Cameron's experimentation and his treatment appear harsh? I would say yes. this forceful type of approach that I was describing to you, it definitely can be said that it's harsh. I wouldn't call it harsh. I would say it was harder on the staff that was on the patients. Shut your mouth, dude. You go have it done then.

If it's so easy. Because these people had to be fed and they had to be cared for and they had to be and give in sufficient fluid and food and toileted and so on and so forth. It was a very difficult thing for the staff to... What the frick? To follow these patients properly

and see that they did well. Did well? I'm glad he was concerned for the staff. But damn at all. I wouldn't. I could have maybe had a different kind of life. And that makes me angry and sad. And I don't know how to explain how I feel.

Really, I just, I'm just true. How did you feel when you learned that Dr. Cameron's experimentation was financed by the CIA? Oh, I don't. Oh, I can't even use it. the word that I thought because I thought that bastard and he was too smart. He knew. He knew who he was working for and excuse me but I just you know I just can't sometimes I can't believe it and yet I know it's true. If you have the opportunity to say something to the people at the Central Intelligence Agency

who financed this study, what would you say? I realize the CIA is a very important organization and they have a very important job to do. But God, it surely doesn't have to be done on people who are totally incapable of knowing what's happening

or having any defense against it. And I can't imagine the mentality of people who would do this. I just can't. As for Dr. Cameron, he died in 1966 while mountain climbing. A colleague wrote of Cameron, for him the ends justify the means. And when one is dealing with a waste of human potential, it is easy to adopt this stance. Dr. Cameron seemed ideally suited for what the CIA had in mind.

He's adapting to the shape of things to common. P. F.R. 7. With five-speed transmission or off. Optional automatic. Wide steel belted radios. Front disc brakes. One end spoiler. Rack and pinion steering. Triumph, TR7.

No other sports car looks like it. No other sports car drives like it. Triumph. TR 7. Don't worry. He just got lucky. I'm sorry. I let us down.

Forget it. We'll beat it next week. You know, I kind of have to agree with that poor woman who was just speaking in that you can hear about this stuff all day and I feel like it's impossible to wrap my head around the fact that not only did this happen, but that, you know, this organization is still at large doing probably even worse things in a clandestine fashion. Like, it's impossible to actually comprehend that in some way

that this is the reality. Because, I mean, if you just go about your life and you're not educated on the history at all, you would think that this is impossible. This would never happen. It's just quite chilling to see what humans are capable of under certain conditions. They let us sound. Have a nickel of light, huh? Michael of Missilepeia? Sure. The good taste. Though one might make the argument that maybe they're not humans, maybe they're demons, perhaps. Who knows?

Make a lobe light. Don't just compare it to other light beers. Or working with demons, or working with demons, or. possessed in some way or who knows who knows i'm not going to rule anything out at this point you know what a good at you make a little bit more you know what a real problem was today you were terrible who taste you're family the many rules i pay for the many hair stars so i use hot curlers low dryers things that can be brutal to hair i switched from one On conditioner to another looking for help. Then came Alberto V-O-5 hot oil treatment.

It works just like a sallow hot oil treatment, but takes less time and money. I just heat a tube, smooth it in, and shampoo. My hair is left silky, shiny, more manageable than I ever dream. Alberto V.O.5 hot oil treatment. I'll never switch again. Thursday. I can move a few my things over this morning.

There's a scandal in the 12th when Wojo gets a roommate. Hi. In a Barney Miller special. Listen, there are my biological allergies. Authority say this Texas motorcycle gang, murder, federal judge. People are always scared of some they don't understand, and they don't understand us, they're scared. Geraldo Rivera investigates dope, death, and the banditos on 2020.

Thursday, starting at 9, 8, Central and Maldon, ABC. It was the Cold War, and especially the trial of Joseph Cardinal Menzetti, who was forced to testify in a Hungarian court that he was a spy. And then later, the Korean War, with the coerced and mainly fraudulent confessions of American servicemen, that would spark intense interest in intelligence circles about brainwashing. The CIA secretly commissioned a study of communist brainwashing methods at the Cornell University Medical Center. A leader of that study was Dr. Lawrence Hinkle. He explains first the Russian method of controlling and breaking a person.

Absolutely isolated from everyone else. with one man whose job it is to get you to write the extent to which you are a criminal. In this setting, you can get people to do most anything to you see because you don't have to lay a hand. And by the time you get through and you go up before the judge, the fellow says, were you a spy? He says, yes, I was a spy. The Chinese never really had this kind of a state police system. And we're getting in.

And all this fellow does is ask you write, rewrite, rewrite, and talk to him about your whole. All right. Graduated in pilot training in 1949. While the purpose of the study was to find out about communist brainwashing techniques, CIA documents show that the agency was interested in developing mind control methods of its own. To precondition and control Chinese living in this country to be sent back to their homeland as CIA agents. Oh, the irony, because now China's doing that to us. Oh, so ironic.

Well, I think they were, no, they were looking for, they weren't like an agency like that. Yet the agency's perception of the work you were doing. In CIA documents we have examined, it says that the project that was being done here, they intended to use everything learned about the new agents to induce them to, quote, to perform acts of a complex, purposeful nature. Yeah, but that was never. The effects of which may be out of keeping with the individuals. That sort of thing was never not.

Those people were not, that was, when they first came here, the first people they set up to CIS, you see, were operational-type people from the CIA, I assume, of a wild idea. Okay, this is their perception of it, if I could just continue. Now, it wasn't dangerous to his being contrary to the injuries, much as the express tensions and interests, the good of the individual and subversive to the goals for the chase consciously working. in all this talk. But the situation wise, you see, those things were never done, because wise people are on both sides, we're not able to do this nor interested in it. They were, though, some of the low-level people were, but the high-level people were not, that in truth. But documents clearly show that the CIA was attempting to develop agents

over whom they had as much control as possible, agents who would perform tasks contrary to their own We just watched Denzel's version of the Manchering candidate like two months ago. He can't get him to kill and then to have no memory of having killed. His brain has not only been washed, as they say, it has been dry clean. Is a Manchurian candidate controlled by others to do things against his will possible? It was a remarkable film because As far as I'm concerned, it made something totally impossible seem absolutely credible. I would say the answer is yes. There are many qualifications to them.

Dr. Milton Klein, a psychologist, a clinical and experimental hypnotist, an unpaid consultant to the CIA. The qualifications would be the subject selected to produce the kind of behavior that you wish, the amount of time, the procedures that are utilized, and the motivations of the people who are designing, executing, and administering the procedures. You're asking whether an individual can be, under hypnosis, influenced, coerced, persuaded, shaped to perform an antisocial act or a destructive act or an act of violence. My answer would be yes. Captain Maltho, you'd be good enough to lend Raymond your pistol, please. Yes, ma'am. Thanks, great.

Sure, kid. Shoot, Bobby, Raymond. Rule it for it. Oh, no. Yes, ma'am? Ma'am? All valuable are too much in the intelligence field. None whatsoever.

It is absolutely least because nobody's ever been able to do that that I know of, but do it in an operationally feasible way. I'm not in any way saying that hypnosis. doesn't place. I'm not saying there's nothing to it. I would say that most government agencies concerned with intelligence operations have been looking to hypnosis as a tool for a variety of purposes, one of which is to carry out and to execute certain intelligence operations on a basis where they would not have to rely completely

on some of their own emotional reactions. Actually, they're in total murder. it could if you consider that an act of killing someone under circumstances of war is murder. I think one has to define what that means. Yeah, I mean, good point, Nick. So in the chat, he said Becker's research detailed and cross currents about hypnosis was fascinating. And bear in mind, too, that Becker, I mean, this is the early 70s, right? So he's actually at kind of the peak of his career.

He's not canceled until, I mean, the 6.5. minutes interview was in 1977, but I would say things started declining like a few months to a year before that. So he was right up there. And so was Dr. Allen Fry's work. So Dr. Allen Frye was an EMF researcher as well. Both he and Becker were like rock stars in their field. But Becker was primarily interested not only on the negative effects of EMFs on biological systems and regeneration, but also how to support the regenerative pathways and currents within the body to facilitate the healing process and the regeneration process versus Alan Frye was focused entirely on the harms aspect. And of course, Becker ended up getting canceled for whistleblowing about the harms

of non-native BMFs in particular from like the military antennas that were being used. And Alan Fry ended up having, you know, his career continued to thrive. And he did work on Havana syndrome and other negative effects of EMFs on the body, like the opening up of the barriers of the barrier tissues in the body, like the blood brain barrier, the gut barrier, et cetera, from certain frequencies. And of course, despite or maybe, you know, because of that data, certain frequencies and wave forms were chosen to roll out into our future technology, you know, whether it's, you can't really say it that of ignorance because he was generating that data to show, hey, these frequencies are harmful in this way on biological systems, and if you pulse it, it's worse.

And then what do we get? We get those frequencies in a pulsed form in all of our technology, Bluetooth, Wi-Fi, you know, 5G, 4G, LTE, etc. So, you know, you can't claim ignorance when that data was very much there at the time, way before this technology was rolled out. But yeah, going back to Becker and hypnosis, I definitely recommend people read cross currents. We're currently about halfway through that book in the book club, maybe a little bit less. We read the body electric before that. But yeah, he talks about, I mean, when you learn about the DC regeneration current that is responsible for stimulating tissues to heal and regenerate in the case of bone, that that current comes from the perineural cells of the brain and that pain is the portal to activating those.

So if you feel a pain stimulus, that signal gets sent from the periphery back to the CNS, the brain and the central nervous system, which then stimulates the DC electric current to go back to the site of injury or pain to stimulate the healing process. And that suggestibility, hypnosis, words of affirmation, the placebo effect in general, I would say, is very, very powerful with regards to also helping to stimulate the process of healing and regeneration, and it's likely through helping to stimulate that DC electric current. So it sounds woo and intangible, but it's creating a very detectable response in the biology that, you know,

whether it's, whether that's being stimulated by something as intangible as like, you know, a placebo effect or hypnosis, versus an actual pain stimulus or an injury, it doesn't matter. The DC current response is the same. And so anything that can help to stimulate that regenerative current, it's going to help the regeneration and healing process no matter what part of the body we're talking about. So it is very powerful.

The circumstances of peace. The circumstance of peace in Whipping, another former CIA agent says that Fidel Castro at one time was considered as a possible target for a Manchurian candidate. Castro was naturally on a discussion point. Instead, they passed him a cigar-laced with SV-40 and gave him cancer. Could you get somebody gung-ho enough that they would go in and get him? But if you have 100% control of a guy, you have 100% dependency.

If something happens and you haven't programmed it in, you've got a problem. So in the end, it was decided that a Manchurian candidate was not... Tried to, yes. But the search for mind control continue. Yeah, I think, what's his name? Why am I spacing on his name? The Patsy, I don't know why I'm spacing on his name, was supposed to bring the cigar to Mexico

and didn't make it to the drop point. Lee Harvey Oswald, thank you. The mind be controlled, perhaps not. But is human behavior predictable? In this area, the CIA did make a significant breakthrough. A personality assessment system designed by the H. Chief Psychologist John Giddinger. It comes close to being able to predict how humans will behave.

It's really a descriptive system, an attempt to try to describe personality in a relatively systematic way, that hopefully you can get some kind of an idea to predict what the behavior between different kinds of individuals. Gittinger's system had many uses in intelligence work. One was to draw personality portraits of world leaders. of world leaders. Using Yininger system, the agency concluded the Shah of Iran is a brilliant but dangerous megalomaniac whose basic problems resulted from an overbearing father. And there were other

applications. Your assessment staff played a key role in helping other governments pick their police intelligence agencies, including we've learned the Korean CIA, Uruguayan National Police. Can you tell us about this? No. author John Marks, the former number two CIA man in Uruguay told me how in 1966, John Gidinger and an assistant, traveled down to Uruguay and gave the tests in order to select members of the Uruguayan intelligence service. You know, can I have to look at the CIA. He said, he personally traveled to South Korea as part of an American CIA effort to set up the Korean CIA and to give the personality test to candidates for the Korean CIA to choose the

best man for their secret police. But one of the basic functions of getting your system was finding the vulnerabilities of an agent, a double agent, or a potential agent. And its applicability to intelligence work, isn't the PAS system looking for a person's soft spot? Well, of course, the answer to that is yes, but I hasten to say soft spot. this is what I consider a negative word. Of the hundreds of behavioral projects undertaken by the CIA,

Geningers appears to have been one of the more successful and more conventional. Other experiments were not as conventional. Neuropsychist Dr. Jose Delgado is financed by the Office of Naval Research. In this experiment, the bull is sedated. Electrodes are implanted in its brain. Delgado transmits an electronic impulse, to the center of the bull's brain. Delgado has remote control

of the animal. Recently released CIA documents refer to the feasibility of remote control of animals and that special investigations will be conducted toward the application of selected elements of these techniques to man.

What the hell? Other areas were examined... They're so flagrant about it. They don't even try to hide it. Through the 60s and 70s. Brain surgery. psychosurgery, creation of amnesia, parapsychology, manipulation of genes. Even though past and present CIA officials have indicated this kind of work ended in 1963. By the way, I think about 10 years later, or maybe a little bit less, was Project Stargate,

which was the remote viewing initiative project. Also spearheaded by the CIA, and apparently Russia was, or the Soviet Union was doing something similar at the time as well. There are a few famous people that kind of arose out of that that were extremely good remote viewers. Apparently the project was scrapped ultimately and due to infeasibility or like inaccuracy or whatever, but I think probably not because there are, there's going to be a huge variability, right, and somebody's ability to remote view. Certainly there's some aspect of like just an innate talent aspect to it.

So if you do a rigorous enough search and find the right people, you probably have a quite high accuracy, but, you know, who knows if that's being implemented, you know, to this day regularly, hard to say. But just for like a frame of reference for like the timeline there, because they were talking about like parapsychology and it kind of falls into that realm. And what of those who took part in these programs. In 1977, the Senate subcommittee heard testimony for many of them. Cough Gates program caught. Exactly. Yeah. Nick mentioned in the chat, which is a whole can of worms. If you are watching this and you were in a gifted and talented program, you may be entitled to compensation. But the testimony was not that revealing.

According to one of them, they agreed amongst themselves to keep the inquiry within bounds that would satisfy the committee. Former narcotics officer Charles Siragusa says that he was asked to limit his testimony by the man he reported to at the CIA. He wanted me not to say a thing. To perjure yourself. That's right. Well, either that, I'd have to pressure myself or take the Fifth Amendment. And I'm not about to take the Fifth Amendment for anybody. Okay.

Former CIA chemist Robert Lashrop testified he had no first-hand knowledge of the agency-run safe houses when, in fact, he supervised one of them. There was very little. And according to George White's diaries was at a safe house when White conducted what he called an LSD surprise experiment. Surprise! Guys. When we recently filmed near his California home, oversaw many of the CIA behavioral programs.

He retired in 1973 and destroyed the records of this work. In sort of a valedictory letter, Dr. Gutley wrote that he and his colleagues had been able to maintain contact with the leading edge of developments in the field of biological and chemical control of human behavior. Dr. Gutlieb also testified before the Senate subcommittee but from an anti-room where he could not be filmed because of what his lawyer termed health and cardiac problems Oh, please.

Dudley declined ABCNia's request for an interview. And what of George White, the man who helped the agency and so many of its programs, he would retire here to Stinson Beach, California. And shortly before his death, he wrote to his boss at the CIA, Dr. Sidney Gutlieb, and summed up his career by saying, it was fun, fun, fun.

Where else could a red-blooded American boy lie, kill, and cheat, steal to see rape and pillage with a sanction and blessing of the all-highest? Wow. Has mind control been achieved? From all of the available evidence, it appears doubtful. The human will has prevailed up to this point. But as we have seen, work is continuing in this field. work that we still don't know very much about.

How deeply are the Russians and other dictatorships into all of this? We really can't say, and the CIA is reluctant to give out information above. But the basic question remains, what place does all of this have within a democracy? One final point should be made. As one of the persons who worked on these programs told us, we are very capable, conscientious, and very dedicated scientist working for our country. So that's what they say to help themselves sleep in night? This is Paul Alpire for ABC News.

Good night. Here's a great up! All right. That was heavy. What do I even say after that? I guess what I'll say is that what I kind of already said, which is that all of this is still very relevant

If you think they stopped, they didn't. I think Jack talks quite a bit about in the Obama era, the brain health initiative, the BHA, is what he believed to be a continuation of the MKLtra experiments, but instead being conducted in poor parts of South and Central America instead of in the U.S., I guess, they think, you know, if let's say they were to get caught doing that, then it would be less egregious than doing it on Americans,

which just mess up on many levels. So we're not going to talk about it in this program just because we've already gone on for quite a bit of time. But the fun will continue. Like Nick and I mentioned, in the telegram, we're going to start a little membership and everybody who enrolled in this program is just going to be automatically added to that,

where we're going to meet monthly. We still aren't sure when we're starting, maybe end of this year, maybe December, maybe early, next year, January or February, so we'll let you guys know, but where we're going to be doing monthly deep dives, probably two, three hour, two to three hour calls per month, where we're going to dive into specific topics, some of which we covered in this program, others that will be new or building upon things that we've covered in this program, just so we have some more time to

really double-click on some of these issues. Because the scope of this program in particular was very broad, we could only go so deep. And so we're hoping to kind of balance that by having the opportunity to kind of zoom in more on specific topics and time points of interest throughout the timeline of basically all of history up until this point. I mean, we're probably going to be a bit all over the place. But just kind of finding what is interesting to us and kind of riff on it as well. and have some discussions and some readings and watch some videos. So it should be really fun. Did you want to say anything, Nick?

I can ask you to unmute. Not necessarily about that, but just in general wrapping up or whatever. Yeah, I'm just grateful to have gotten to be part of this project. Thanks for having me. So fun. Everybody who's tuned in, thanks for your trust in us to guide you down. these rabbit holes. You know, if you've been like intellectually curious and you've found yourself

investigating conspiracy theories, you know, it could be a deep and dark endeavor to take on by yourself trying to make sense of things and figure out how some of these things are possible. And hopefully you've got a taste in this course that the truth is much more complicated than a lot of what you read online tries to make things sound so simple. But this was enlightening and I'm excited to continue on. I mean, even just in like our chat today, I feel like we kind of alluded to so many other things that we didn't even get the chance to cover in the course. And, you know, I know throughout the weeks like putting together

the slides, there's just like entire topics that we just had to scrap to try to stay to, you know, a somewhat narrow series of events. So I'm excited to keep going. And yeah, I guess the only thing I would leave you with is if there are any specific, sorry, there are gardeners directly outside my window. I don't hear it at all. Okay, great. It's just me then.

If there are any specific topics that maybe you guys would be interested in, feel free to share them with us. So I'll leave you with that. Yeah. Yeah, feel free to continue using the telegram. Maybe we'll just end up merging that with the future group. We'll see. It might make more sense to start a new one. I don't know.

We'll think about it. But yeah, feel free to drop resources, you know, or thoughts in the telegram. If there's anything you come across, or you have questions or comments or ideas. It's definitely a good place to share so we can kind of brainstorm together and keep the fun kind of rolling. So thanks everybody for joining us. It's kind of crazy. I feel like these past few months feel both long and short at the same time. It's kind of weird.

We've been through a lot together. We covered a ton and we'll keep the good times rolling again. We'll start them up pretty soon. And so thank you so much for being here. Thank you, Nick, so much for supporting and helping with the program. like it's gonna kind of suck to do any programs alone after doing this it makes it so much more fun to do it with somebody so it's been much appreciated and uh we'll catch all y'all in the next program so stay tuned for that bye