Unheard: True Crime in Their Own Words - A Former Cop Turned Criminal—The Story Behind a Real Bank Heist

Episode Date: February 3, 2026

He used to be a police officer who believed in the system. He wore a badge, took an oath, and built a career around enforcing the law. Years later, he was on the other side of it, charged in a bank heist that cost him his freedom and permanently altered the trajectory of his life.In this episode of Unheard, I sit down with Gary Sahlin to talk about how that transformation happened. Not in a motivational way. Not in a neatly packaged redemption arc. But in an honest, uncomfortable way that walks through the choices, pressures, and internal shifts that led a trained law enforcement officer to cross into criminal behavior.We talk about what was happening in his life before the robbery, how he justified what he was doing at the time, and the moment everything finally collapsed. He speaks openly about the crime, the arrest, federal prison, and what it’s like to live with a decision you can’t undo. There’s no attempt to minimize the damage or rewrite history. He owns what he did and talks about the consequences that followed.This is one of the most interesting stories you’ve probably never heard, not because it’s flashy, but because it exposes how thin the line can be between stability and self-destruction, between identity and illusion, and between who we believe we are and who we actually become.The conversation isn’t about glamorizing crime. It’s about reality. It’s about accountability. And it’s about hearing directly from someone who has lived on both sides of the justice system.🎙️ FOLLOW & SUPPORT UNHEARDSubscribe to Unheard: True Crime In Their Own Words so you don’t miss new episodes.🎥 YouTube (full video episodes)🎧 All major podcast platforms (follow wherever you listen)🔔 Turn on notifications and download episodes, it helps ensure these stories continue to be told.If you’re having trouble finding Unheard or this episode on your preferred platform, drop a comment and we’ll get you the link.👤 FOLLOW THE HOSTFollow Just In The Nick of Crime for updates, behind-the-scenes content, and future episodes:📲 @JustinTheNickOfCrime on all platformsSubstack: https://justinthenickofcrime.substack.comFacebook: https://facebook.com/justinthenickofcrime1Instagram: https://instagram.com/justinthenickofcrimeTikTok: @justinthenickofcrimeCameo: https://cameo.com/JustInTheNickOfCrime📚 SUPPORT THE WORKSupport the show by purchasing books or merch:👉 http://justinthenickofcrime.com💵 CashApp: $JustinOnTikTok💵 Venmo: @JustinOnTikTok📧 Business inquiries:[e-mail]: This channel covers news stories and current events. All information is presented for educational and informational purposes only. If you or someone you know needs support, visit the appropriate website(s) for resources and helpline information.Copyright Disclaimer Under Section 107 of the Copyright Act 1976, allowance is made for "fair use" for purposes such as criticism, comment, news reporting, teaching, scholarship, and research. Fair use is a use permitted by copyright statute that might otherwise be infringing. Non-profit, educational or personal use tips the balance in favor of fair use.© 2026 Unheard Media, LLC | JustInTheNickOfCrime™ All rights reserved#UnheardPodcast #Unheard #TrueCrimePodcast #TrueCrimeCommunity #TrueCrime #InTheirOwnWords #SurvivorVoices #JusticeForVictims #Accountability #PodcastLaunch #ElizabethSmart #ElizabethSmartFoundation #SurvivorAdvocate #EndChildAbuse #BelieveSurvivors #PodcastRecommendations #NewPodcast #YouTubePodcast #CrimeStoriesSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Welcome to Unheard, True Crime in Their Own Words. Today's guest is Gary Selene, a man who has lived what most would call the unthinkable. He wore the uniform, carried the badge, he swore to protect and serve, and then crossed the line, becoming the very thing he once hunted. From trusted officers convicted felon from enforcing the law to fighting for survival behind bars, Gary has walked both sides of the line and paid the price. On this episode, he's going to tell us all about it, the power, the downfall, the prisoners, and how he came out on the other side, a changed man who is now motivating others.

This is unheard. And Gary, thank you so much for being here. Well, thanks for having me, Justin. I really appreciate being here. So your story's fascinating. Gary and I have a mutual friend, Eric Oakes, who actually was on the show. We recorded an episode with him yesterday about his son, Adam. And he shared some of your story with me, and I thought it sounded fascinating.

And for the listeners, and I told this to Gary as well, when I have the opportunity that I don't know a ton about the story, I try not to look it up prior because I don't want to steer the company. conversation. I really wanted to be in his own words. But basically, from what I understand, and then I'll hand it off to you, Gary was a law enforcement officer. There, something happened, whether he saw an opportunity, I'm not sure, but you robbed a bank, you got caught for it, and then you were sent to prison. And then the rest is kind of what we're going to talk about. Is that about accurate? It is. It is. I started my career in the Navy. Always wanted to be a cop, always wanted to feel like I was helping society and being part of something bigger that's

what I wanted my life to be. So from high school, I actually did a newspaper interview with like this little local newspaper. They interviewed four of us about what we're going to be wrapped up in high school. And my goals were clear. I still lived that newspaper article. And I talked about I wanted to be in Navy field. and I wanted to be a cop and a big favorite. I went

in the Navy, didn't become a seal. But I did get out of the Navy. I got an honorable discharge and became a cop. I had moved back home and worked in a city near where I grew up.

I think at the time there was maybe three or four hundred officers for the department. But it was great. I enjoyed doing it. I was respectful to people. I tried to look at both sides of the situation. Nine times out of 10, people don't want you there as a cop. So it's a tough job. But I was good at it. I enjoyed it. But I was also really immature. And I was married. I went through a bad divorce, which the divorce cost me a lot.

and it ended up costing me my job. You know, I look back on it. I'm like, you know, you make so many mistakes. But that was like the start of it. It was a slippery slope after that. Instead of going and getting the support of my family and friends, which I had a really tight network. I basically turned away from all of them.

And I remember my mom and dad in the kitchen one night when all this was happening, not the family robbery stuff, but the job with the police department. And I said, I'm going to just get in the car and I'm driving to Miami. Well, I was going to just drive as far as I could drive. And I ended up in Miami. Miami was wild. I met a lot of people.

I had no place hanging out with or being around. and I was just very self-destructive. I got involved with a woman who I thought was a godsend. She was beautiful, she was intelligent, charming, and we just kind of fed off each other. And we got involved in a party in Miami. We were down in an ocean drive. I get a nice apartment

And then I said You know I don't have to work I can I can just become a bank robber I'm not laughing because it's It's It's just people joke about that sometime

I mean I laughed a little bit not because Yeah obviously you did it but a lot of times people say things like that And they're like man I can just rob a bank and do it But you you actually went through with it I did. I did. Fast forward a few years when I first got into federal prison, some of the guards that I met,

they knew my background, and they would come in me and say, and I've actually thought about doing it for bankruptcy trip. So it's like, here's a pure prison's guard telling me that. So we're in Miami, we're living it up. I'm thinking everything's great. I'm just drinking, ignoring all my problems

from back room and just the money is racking up, the debt's racking up. I must, well, I I jokingly said to my girlfriend I could rob a bank. And her eyes just lit them. She was a foreign national. She was from Brazil.

When I met her, I did not know, but she was actually here in the country illegally. She had already been ordered to deport and she was working as an escort. When she met me, she had stopped, supposedly. And we kind of planned the robbery together. I told her, hey, I've seen this movie, and we could use a cop car. I ended up using a cop car from my former employer.

I had a key stashed, a spare cue to a police car. car. And when I finally decided, today's the day, we flew from Miami to New Hampshire. That's where the robbery happened. And I believe it was about 3 a.m. She drove me, dropped me off near the police department. I took my spare key that I had saved from when I was a cop, walked right into the parking lot, unlocked a car, distant,

there's some security features. Most people don't know this and I won't give them up here, but police cars have locked that you can't see that you have to disable before you can actually drive the vehicle. So I did that and drove off. I stashed the police car probably about a mile from the bank that I had determined as and broke. That morning, she dropped me off. My girlfriend had dropped me off at the car. my full bank robber gear on, a mask, sunglasses, gloves.

I was ready to go. I was, I was trained. I knew not how to rob banks, but I knew how to clear buildings. I knew how to, you know,

do takeover to the rooms. To this day, I still, I scratched my head and just wonder, what the hell was going to think it? Like,

I wasn't raised like this. My parents raised my brother and I, you know, as God-fearing law-abiding citizen. You know, 20 years later, I look back and I'm like, you know, you just scratch my head right out. It's like I was somebody else. You know, I think one part two, I mean, you robbed the bank, obviously, but you also stole a police car, which that's pretty ballsy.

in and of itself. It is. It is. It's balzy. It's stupid. It is. Again, I wouldn't have been able to do it if I didn't have inside anomaly. Of course. How old were you at the time when you did this?

At the time of the robbery, I was 25. Okay. So a full frontal cortex might not have been fully developed, but it was getting there. And I asked, because I figured it had to be like early 20s because as a guy myself, I know that we are very stupid when we're young. Sometimes when we're old too, but especially when we're young. Really looking back, I've, you know, being in prison and having so much time to reflect on the past. I spent many years in the whole by myself 24-hour lockdown.

So I had a lot of time to reflect and rip back at, certain points in my life where I think I changed. While I was in the military, I had a heart injury. And I was diagnosed with a TBI that's a traumatic brain injury, which I believe contributed to a lot of my decision making. Because it seems like after my head injury, I started drinking heavily. and I could contribute it to the Navy lifestyle and hey we're all a bunch of you know we can drink anybody under the table that's how it was that's the Navy culture at least it was when I was in I think it's always the military culture yeah I believe so but it it seems like from the hair injury I'm not

copping out, I take the responsibility for my absence. It just seems like from that head injury, I just was making some of the right decisions, but my decision making was,

I'm trying to describe it the best I can. Poor? Poor decision making? I don't know. Yeah. Yeah, poor. Yeah. I get it. I've, I, I,

I, I won't go into it, like on here, but I've made some very, very dumb decisions. Not robbing a bank, but like very reckless, like 140, 50 miles an hour down the interstate kind of stuff. And may or may not, I guess I'm going to admit it, may or may not have keyed a car because somebody took my parking space when I was like 21. And just like really, really don't. Like I look back and be like, what the hell was wrong with me? Like, why would I do? And I was drinking a lot then to me.

was this college. But, you know, it was, it's, it's sometimes you look back and then you don't, your younger self doesn't realize the, the ramifications that are going to impact your older self. Let me ask you this about the robbery. So was it, was it done at night or during the day? I, I saw I didn't catch that. I think you might have said, I think you said you were dropped off late at night, but.

No, so we had took the police car, the night, before. I staffed it so that I could easily access it the day of the robbery. But it was it was during the day. It was around, I believe, around 11.30, 12 o'clock in the day. I got near the bank and parked the car, not across the street, but there was a small parking lot where I had parked the car. And I had to sit there and psych myself from. And again, I talked about this in the book, but I talked about how I didn't feel like I was myself. I almost felt like I was walking a movie. Yeah. Which is a strange concept to think, but I just didn't feel like I was myself. Well, maybe it was the stock of actually about to do this. The police department that I worked for, they kept M.

16 in another chunk. So I was ready to do the robbery, got out, open the chunk, took the gun out. I actually put an agency into the gun because I wasn't going to shoot anybody. I knew that. I just wanted the money. And again, it's just one of the dumbest decisions

you could make. make to rob a bank because they will find you. There's, you know, hundreds of people who work on one bank robber. And it's like, well, the brainpower, one verse 100 is not too good. Not in your favor. The odds is robbing a bank and getting away with it these days are not good. So I think people don't realize how kind of common bank robberies are, though. I don't think because you don't really hear a lot.

My wife worked in the banking. I mean, this is going back to the early 2000s, but my wife worked in the banking industry, and I think she was part of at least two robberies in her time doing it. One person had come in and brought a note saying that they had a bomb on them.

And so, you know, and they don't care. You know, the tellers are basically, for the most part, designed or, you know, trained to like just hand over whatever. It's not worth your life. Apparently somebody that she worked with,

somebody came in with a gun and put it in this woman's mouth, like a little old like Asian lady who worked as a teller. And she could feel that it wasn't metal or that it wasn't a real gun. And so she told him to pull the trigger. Like just, it just, you know, it was not going to hand over the money. But it's apparently they're relatively more common than people would think. So, so you robbed the bank. Before I asked the next question, did you get out of the bank before you were caught?

Yes. It's great. I walked out, got back into the police car. My idea at the time was I'm going to just kind of drive away casual. Nobody, I mean, people see a police car, but they're not thinking, hey, this is the getaway vehicle. But my mind and my just reactions had a different idea, and I punched it, I hit the lights. and the people in the bank are all looking out the window and they sue this car, police car speeding off.

So they're on with the police, they say, we just saw one of your officers driving away really fast. I probably got to the police station in about five minutes, maybe eight minutes. I was going very fast. I had the lights and siren on. I got to the downtown area where the, police station was at the time and

shut off the lights, shut off the center of, and pulled right into the parking and lot of the station. I had actually stopped and put the gun back into the trunk so that it wouldn't look like

anything was disturbed. I didn't think they would have known it was a police car. There's this movie called Heat I don't know if you ever seen it. But they used ambulances and police cars and their bank robbery. That was kind of loosely based off of what I was thinking.

So you get to the police station, you drop in the car off. I mean, that is also a bold move to do a bank robbery and then go straight to a police station. This should be a movie, Gary, at this point. I mean, even if you get caught, this should be a movie. Did you get away from the police station Or were they pretty much like Come on, let's go inside

No, no Nobody saw me I believe I saw one person That I actually knew And I think she looked at me And just looked the other way Again Everything seemed to be a blur

And kind of like almost happening Not a body But I just felt like I was not myself if we could put it that way. I have to imagine the adrenaline rush on that had to have been insane. Yes. Understatements, maybe. So do you know how much you got away with, or not got away with,

but do you know much you left the bank with how much money? It was around 25 grand. Okay. Definitely not enough time for a 20-year prison center. sentenced. I got sentenced to 20 years for the robberd. Because a good time and halfway house, I got out after about. I did 16 years, four months behind the walls. And then I did about nine months in the halfway house. That's a long time. How long from the time you got away, how long till they caught up with you and how did how did the arrest go down? So,

We robbed the bank. We went to a hotel, which was a couple blocks from the police department, the woman who I was involved with. And we counted the money. And I believe it was $24,823. And we discussed how are we going to travel with all this money? Because she had traveled internationally that large amount of money. and she kind of knew what she was doing and she said, well, let's just ship it.

We can overnight it to ourselves in Florida. She took about $2,000 cash to herself. I took some cash for myself. We shipped the box every night. We drove right to the airport, got onto a flight, and we were back in Miami, you know, before evening. It was I believe it was suited years later

I was out getting my hair cut And at the time I had a little Star-backed flip phone it was in my pocket And it was vibrated And I looked at it and it said You know my girlfriend's number So I said I'm not going to answer it And I drove home

Well when I was driving home we lived in a gator community Down in Pompano Beach, Florida and I drove through that. I put my card in. The gate went up and I drove through and I saw two large black SUVs. So you knew. And I already knew.

Those are the, those are the probably U.S. Marshals. So I gunned it. I was in my car. I gunned it around the back of the apartment building and went out the back way. As I'm doing that, I see the FBI engines and U.S.

marshals like coming out of the woodwork and running. They're cleaning out of the car. and they're saying, that's him, that's him. I got out onto the main road in front of the apartment building. I was trying to get to the train track. My thoughts were if I turned onto the train tracks, they wouldn't change me.

They would be scrambling to get the train stop. They boxed me in in traffic. And for a split second, I actually thought about planning to get them to shoot me. That's how messed up in the mind was at the time. And I thought, this is it. I'm going to prison for the rest of my life. I screwed up royally.

There's no coming back from this. But there was. And, you know, it's now I'm sitting in this park outside. And it's hard to imagine. I went through everything I did. And I mean, that is absolutely. I mean, I think I would have ran too if I was in that position. So how did they end up catching up to you?

Or do you, did they ever, do you ever find that? I'm sure you did find that out, I guess. just good investigative techniques. The police figured out real quick, hey, it was somebody who knows what they're doing. It looks like a former cop, or it looked like a con. They reviewed the video and they said, well, this person obviously has training.

There was a witness across the street who'd seen me giving into the car, the police guy and speeding up. So they narrowed it down fairly quickly. And they said, okay, well, what police officers have we recently let go of? That might be disgruntled. Figured out that I had shipped the money. I don't know how to figure that out. But I would just say it was good investigative techniques on their part,

just hitting the street and interviewing people. you know, looking at the video. I would say that like the title of my book, Good cop, Bad Criminal. I was a good cop and that wasn't a very good criminal for the one day that I was.

You know, the thing is though, Gary, honestly, I mean, that was your first time doing it and I will say it sounds like a pretty, I'm not condoning robbery or committing crimes, but it sounds like a pretty brilliant plan. Fly to a place that

you aren't in. Take a cop car that nobody knows is dressing all black, escaping the cop car, put it back while this is all going on, get on a plane, ship the money. It's just all very, I mean, it should be a movie. I mean, it sounds like a screenplay. But, you know, the whole thing from planning it out, like I'm in my, you know, even down to being in like the club scene of Miami is all like part of this. Like, oh, we're going to go to this old town in New Hampshire. So it's, it's really, I mean, it's, you know what I'm saying? It's, it's, it's really kind of a

brilliant plan. It just wasn't executed well, apparently, because you got caught. But I mean, it's really quite fascinating. So you're arrested. And I don't know this. I'm going to ask you, did you go through a trial or did you take a plea? I took a plea. I, from the moment I got caught, I was sorry for what I did. I just couldn't apologize enough. I saw the pain that I caught. My family. I terrorized the people in the bank, I guess, I believe one of the women in the family, she had real PTSD for a long time. And, you know, I just, I feel super terrible while putting those people through what I put

them through, you know, and they don't go to work expecting to be robbed and having guns pointed in their case. and yeah it's just I'm sorry I lost my turn up on I mean basically you know I think you know you can tell that the remorse is sincere but we were talking about you know the plea deal that they kind of offered you or instead of the trial so I guess what are they are like 20 years is kind of what they went with or 25 years they did they when I first got locked up They were playing hardball and they said,

you're glad to what you're alive. You stole a cop car. That's a third year mandatory minimum sentence because of the weapon involved. Oh, yeah. And, you know, I just couldn't believe they were throwing all this time at me. And it's like, I understand I'm not starting. But where do you draw the line to where it's more about justice than like, hey, we're getting back at him because he pissed us off and made us look bad.

Because the police, the police department was very mad. They were, they were very upset because it was embarrassing them. They had a top car taken right out of their parking by one of their former employees. So, but I took a, I took a plea. They offered 25 years, and it ended up falling right at 20. I had a public defender who was basically useless. He forgot my name at sentencing. Actually, I believe he was great to the sentencing hearing, which upset the judge.

And I got a total of 230 months. So did it make a difference to you when the cops were throwing everything out at you as far as like, you know, this is the time, you know, 30-year minimum and, you know, kind of play. hand hardball. I mean, because you, you having been an officer, you, did it make a difference that you knew that they really, they could say what they wanted, but it wasn't up to them. It was up to a judge. I knew it was up to the prosecutor. Yeah. Because in a federal courtroom, it usually it's the prosecutor making the decisions and the recommendations. And a lot of times the judge would lift over something really quick and just go with whatever the prosecutor says. That's just the way it is.

I've talked to hundreds of guys in federal prison who experienced the same thing. The prosecutors in the courtroom called the shots. Yeah. That's actually, and federal prisons rough because, you know, with state, I mean,

with federal you have to do like 80, at least 80% of the time, correct? Like at least. Whereas in like another situation, like a state's charge, you know, depending on the state,

you know, it could be as low as 50%. federal prison you do about 85% of your time there is no parole in the federal system which a lot of people don't understand and they think he'll get out in five years or 10 years no you're doing 85% of your time I've discovered covering the stuff that I cover on social media

that people have no clue how the justice system works at all and until you're wrapped up on it it doesn't really affect you And you don't think about it. Yeah. But, you know, with federal, like, you'll say, like, you know, you'll see people say something like, oh, well, who'll get pardoned by this? I'm like, you can't have a presidential pardon if it's a state charge or like, no, the governor cannot pardon them when it's a federal charge. And they don't get that, which I'm just going to go off on a real quick tangent here, Gary.

But that's where I struggle with jury of your peers because, like, most people don't understand law at all. And, you know, unless you're a lawyer. and that means you could have somebody who's a fry cook, you know, at McDonald's. Nothing wrong with being a fry cook, but I'm just kind of giving the example who's 18 years old get called for jury duty. That's technically your peer. And then you could have like a 65 year old man who is a, you know, nuclear engineer. Brilliant, but maybe that doesn't understand law. And these people are now in charge of your fate.

And it's kind of a crazy, it's a kind of a crazy system. I feel like we should have professional juror as like a thing, like maybe done by retired judges or retired lawyers or something like that. But, you know. It's a good idea. Yeah. Nobody's going to listen to me, though. But I just think that this whole thing is, it's like I'm sitting here.

And a lot of it was came from me watching the Diddy trial because, you know, they didn't get a conviction on, on Rico. And I'm like, you know, I like to think that I'm pretty smart. And I know how to research stuff. In Rico, even after research is very confusing. And you're going to still expect them. You know what I'm saying? And I'm like, that's why you didn't get a RICO charge.

It's not because he didn't do it. but it's because they don't understand that RICO's an umbrella. So my point is that, I mean, it could have been worse had you, I mean, it could have, I mean, I guess it could have gone either way if you went through a jury trial, but, you know, it could have gotten worse. But again, people with a situation like yours where the evidence is kind of cut and dry, you know, they have, they have the evidence there. They know you stole the car.

They can track the flight logs, I'm sure. They can track that you sent the money to yourself. You know, a plea deal was probably what was in your best favor at that point. But I was. I knew it was. I consulted with, you know, all the family. And they said, look, you could possibly get out in about 16 years. If you don't lose any good time, we're getting into fights and stuff like that. And we looked at everything and we said, this is the best thing. I'm guilty. I'm not denying that. So I can still have a life after I get out. I can do my time. I can do my time. I can. and pay my debt to society and get out and have a normal limit. I get out in 2020, and it's just been amazing since I've been out. As far as there's days like today, I sit here and I just think about how,

wow, I was stuck in federal prison for all those years, and I thought I would never get out. There were times where I thought I was going to be killed. or die in prison. So, and it's like, man, just second chance. So let me, let me ask a couple questions on this. So, and for people who can't see him who are listening to this, Gary's sitting outside just enjoying an absolutely beautiful day today.

I'm very jealous of him right now. That, that being said, so you got out in 2020, so you got out of lockdown just in time to be locked, locked in again. I did it. I got out in January of 2020. I went to this place called Hope Village, which they've been in Southeast D.C. And if anybody knows South East D.C.,

it's a rough neighborhood. They called it Hope Village was the official name of the place, but everybody called it Hopeless Village. While I was there, COVID happened. They locked Hope. They locked Hope Village down. It was nuts.

It was just. like, really? Am I in a movie? Because I remember Trump as president at the time and him getting on TV saying, we're locking down the borders. Nobody's in and out of the country. And it's like, wow, this is really happening. It's, so was Hope Village or Hopeless Village? Was it like a halfway house? It was. It's actually closed now. My daughter and I drove by there a couple of weeks ago. it's an abandoned it's a bunch of buildings

it's kind of sphere looking I think one of the buildings they might have turned into like an apartment low income apartment housing that was nuts that was just an experience the stories I could tell you about being

in the village could probably feel about it well it's I mean like you said it was like cutting out and coming into a movie I mean like literally everything about your story. Like I feel like, you know, I guess you don't talk about a lot, but I feel like this story, everything about it, even from when you got out, could be a screenplay at this point. You know,

they could sensationalize it and whatever, but I mean, it doesn't even need that much. That's the thing. So you go to prison. As a former police officer, you know, we, we all hear that that's not typically looked upon very well. How, what was your experience with that? At first, yes. I was afraid for my life in some of the places, but you adapt. And the way people see you in prison, perception is kind of everything. If you proceed as a weak, you know, a target or a victim, that's how you're going to be treated, and that's how people are going to carry it. If you carry yourself to where you're not a victim to where people see, wait a minute,

this guy might put up quite a bit of a fight. for about the first year I was in protected custody. When I was in like the county jail and the detention centers, they kept being locked up because they didn't know what was going to happen or how I was going to add an actor or I was going to even kill myself. I was under suicide watch for a long time. When I got to the actual federal prison, which would be my prison that I was going to stay in for a long time, I opted not to go into prison. protective custody. I was offered protective custody and I said, no, I'm not going to cower in the cell for the next 20 years. So I went on to general population and I just adapted. You adapt, you'd be surprised if you can adapt to him to in a life. I got in with a few guys

who were not gang affiliated. They were just kind of independent. And white dudes, in prison, you're judged on your race, unfortunately. And there's kind of like an invisible line in the sand drawn around where you can be and where you can walk and where you can sit in a child hall, where you can back in the yard or even in the library, in the education department, where you can sit and stuff like that. I got in with a few guys. general population in prison is kind of like high school without any rules.

There's rules, but, you know, they're all criminals. They're not following the rules. So there's drinking, there's drugs, there's cell phones, there's whatever you want in prison you can get. I was still drinking because I'm an alcoholic, so I was drinking while I was in prison. and so that was kind of like a common thread that I had with the two guys. Yeah, so we love good night. Let's, you know, let's all get blasted tonight. So we sit in the cell and listen to music and drink.

General population in the fed, you're not locked down 24 seconds. They open the doors at, I believe, 5.30 in the morning. I was at a medium federal prison, which is median security. So in the morning, they'd pop the doors open. You could go to breakfast. You could stay in the unit. You could watch the public TVs that they had. And I just kind of assimilated into that fortune.

I have tattoos and stuff. So I, you know, I wore tight shirts and I worked out a lot, and I lived right. I could fight. I didn't portray myself as a victim. And I remember in a few of my roommates or a few of the guys that I associated with found out that I was a cop. And they approached me and they said, look, we hate cops. But you're cool and you're not a cop anymore. And you're in here with us. You're doing your time.

and we're not going to bother you. So it was rough. It's scary at times. But again, I think it's the way you carry yourself. And most people in federal prison are just trying to do their time and get more than much they're in a gang or they're just stupid. Yeah. So it sounds like, and I forget who told me this or used this, it might have been Joe Exotic, believe it or not, but it was, I could be wrong on that, so don't hold this to me.

Somebody's like, you know, I made, like, I made the decision when I was going in that I was going to do the time, the time wasn't going to do me. I have said that. I have thought that, that may be in the book. I'm going to put that in there. Yeah, the time wasn't going to do me. Maybe it was you. Maybe it was you that said it then.

And not Joe exactly. I think it was. I was like, it stuck with me. it might have been you when we talked it might have been you that said it and um not joe i'm sorry to give you that sorry to i'm like i was like who else have i talked to other than you that was that's that's been doing doing time and he was the only one i could think of so i was like but i don't yeah it was you um and i think that's a really good you know if you're in a situation like that that's a situation nobody wants to be in right but if if you're in a situation like that making that

conscious effort to do it that way and i mean i think it's kind of bold of you too to be like you know what? No, I'm not going to do, you know, gin pop. I'm going to go out here and be with everybody else. And again, especially being a former cop. Plus, you know, I guess for you, though, I know that there's, you know, at least from what we hear, I've never been in it fortunately and hopefully I never am. But, you know, there's a pecking order of crimes, right? I mean, bank robbery, I would imagine is not one that anybody, you know what I'm saying? That's not one that they're going to come after you for. Like, oh, you robbed a bank, whatever, you know. No. So, no, there is a hierarchy in a pecking order in prison.

The financial crime guys that got aware that, you know, millions and millions of dollars. In federal prison, a lot of guys want to talk to them and learn from them. Because when they get out, they're playing an injury. How can I do my own onesies scheme?

Prison, I do remember an old convict. He told me one time. He said, prison is an expensive way. to make bad people worse. And that always just sat with me, like, wow. I don't know where he heard that drum,

but if you think about it, it's like college for criminals. Oh, 100%. You learn from each other. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. And I'm telling you guys would have meetings about their crimes, and they would take notes, and there were these adult continuing education

classes, these A's classes that they put on in the education building. They were kind of a joke and they were taught me in minutes. But a lot of them were classes on prime. And if a staff member wasn't fitting in the class, you know, having them go by a billion minutes, they were teaching prime. And it's like, this is nuts. It's not what the system is supposed to be doing. And it's supposed to be rehabilitating me,

and it seems like it's making me a better criminal. If I chose to go that panel, I actually got involved with meditation and yoga, and that helped me quite a bit, just my mind to let go of a lot of things and kind of fine and interpeat. I didn't get involved to the point where, you know, I'm walking around on staring at the sun

and doing sun salutations every minute. But just a small yoga routine and a small, it's called box breathing, to help me through quite a bit. So before I get, because for people who are listening, Gary's written a couple of books. And before I get into that,

out of curiosity, did you, other than the meditation, did you take advantage of any of the other, I'm going to use air quotes here, rehabilitation programs like with continuing education, with, you know,

any of the things that they do as far as courses that aren't, you know, crime related, which I know those are not the official courses. Did you do anything with those while you were there to kind of like, like, I guess what did you do to better yourself while you were in there? When I first went in,

I took, they actually ordered me, the court ordered me to take the Bureau of Prisons victim, um, in fact classes, which are, put on by the psychology people in the prison. And that was probably one best classes that I ever took

because they actually brought people in from the outside who were victims of crime. And they came in and spoke to us. And I remember one young girl, she was, I can't remember exactly what her crime was, but that really sat with me. I remember sitting there crying in front of all these tough guys. Wow.

I never The impact of what I did Didn't really sit down until that moment So the victim impact clap is probably one of the best ones that I took A lot of than the person was I didn't really do any other classes Well no I think that back I did an auto pad

Computer class which they ended up shutting down That's cool though Before we could finish Yeah federal prisons have a company called Unicolverc inside, which is a private company only the U.S. government. And they do contracting for the government. They used to make body armor for the government. The prison I was at, we were a commercial printing company.

We had huge six-color presses. We printed all kinds of materials. for the government. And then so I actually learned printing in my last, I think it was my last 10 years, I worked in this factory and I went to work every day. It was within the prison, but it was a complete commercial printing company. So I learned that while I was in. That really helped.

When I got out, I was offered a job in a printing company in the front office as their person, which is what I did while I was in. So you can make the system work for you if you want it to. But it has to be that individual has to make that choice to say, you know, I'm not going to make my situation worse. I'm going to get better with what I have, even if it's just going to work in Unicorn. I think that's incredible.

So you, how long were you in before? So you started your first book, while you did your first work while you were in prison, how far were you into your sentence before you decided that? And of course, you can tell people the name and where they can purchase it as well. But how long were you in before you decided that you were going to start that process? I want to say about halfway through. It actually started with my mom. My mom said, you need to write a book. It'll be great therapy for you. You can, you know, get your thoughts out, put it on paper.

and she just encouraged me over the year because I kept putting it off and I said that nobody cares about it. But it did. It became a form of therapy. I would say it was about halfway through the sentence to where I said, you know what, I'm going to start outlining this and putting it into chapters and making it a story. And it took me a couple months to come. come up with the title, good, not bad

criminal. It's on Amazon and you can look up my name and find it. We'll put a link in the show notes too for people who want to purchase. Really, it took me about 10 years to actually write the entire thing and make it articulate

and sound like my authentic voice is kind of how I feel when you're reading it, you can hear. I can hear my voice as I'm reading it. And I, I had other people tell me with the same thing. Wow, this really sounds like you.

That's awesome. You know, it's, it's interesting because, you know, and I guess when you're dealing with federal prison, there's, you have all sorts of different people in there for different reasons. You know, federal crimes can span a pretty big gamut. But like, looking at you and speaking to you, you don't

you don't seem like you would fit the prisoner like profile you know what people think of a prisoner you know what I'm saying like it's you're very well spoken you know very put together

very articulate clearly intelligent and you just made a really stupid but wasn't even a stupid robbery because it could have been great like I hate to say it that way but and you know but I guess you know the the the positive is, is by getting caught, you know, you didn't go down that path,

which could probably have ended up, you know, killing you. To be honest, Justin, I'm glad I got caught because it just would have got worse. I know I would have, my ego would have been inflated. Yeah, I got away with one. I can do another one. So in the reality, I'm glad I got caught. Prison saved my life. As kind of morbid as that sound, but it did.

I remember the other person. that you say that somebody else said the exact same thing to me. Joe was not the only one I talked to. There's a guy I spoke to. His name is David Garlock, and he's basically a copy and paste of the Menendez brothers.

Like he and his brother killed their abuser, went to prison, they ended up getting pardoned. But he said the same thing. He said that the path that he was on after the murder, he would have ended up dead. And I think that that type of reflection and accountability is massive.

I mean, I'm not in that situation, but to be able to sit there and be like, man, I did 20, you know, almost I did 20 years, but I'm glad I was caught. That's a big statement. I don't think people really comprehend how big of a statement that is because, you know, yeah, it might have been 20 years of your life,

but at the same time you might not have had 20 years. Now, you know, you're still a young guy. You could have 40, 50, 60 years. left. And live it to the fullest, but, you know, if you can to go into that path, it probably would have been bad. But so I find, I think that's really interesting. And I think that that's, that's kind of, kind of awesome, you know, that have that kind

of accountability and self-freshed that. I live with this every day. It's hard who I am. I can't run from it. I can't hide from my craft. You know, not to just spouting off cliches here. you know, if we forget the path, we're going to repeat it, you know. The thing is, I want to just continue to as a person and learn.

Yeah, and the thing is about, you know, it's obviously, I'm sure it's not something that you share with everybody, you know, when you first meet him or whatever, but obviously you were in there for a long time, so I'm not trying to diminish that at all when I say this, but when it comes to crimes, you have a cool story. Like, I don't think there's a cooler story than yours, you know. Yes, there are victims in the bank that suffered PTSD. And of course, that's terrible. You know, the government ensures the money, but it sounds like they probably got most of it back.

And they did. They recovered everything. Yes. And the money that we spent. Yeah. So they made a profit off of it. And, you know, other than that, nobody got really hurt. And you have a story that sounds.

like a script for a movie. Really, it does. So I, you know, when you do have to share that story, um, I don't like, I, I, I,

I hear your story and hear that you went to prison and you tell me. And I like, I don't like judge you anyway, shape or form words. If you had said, oh, I went to prison for crimes against children, then I wouldn't even want to chat.

You know what I'm saying? It's very different. So, or something or like, you know, crimes against women, you know, then it's like,

okay, whatever, but yours is, is interesting. So when you, when you choose to share it, I don't think that there's negative judgment

there, at least my opinion. And then, so you wrote the book. Did you publish it while you were still incarcerated? Or did you finally get it published once you were, I guess,

did you not complete it until you were out, really, to close that chapter? I didn't complete it until long ago. I had a friend to look at it, and she did really heavy edits and corrected a lot of my

grandma mistakes. But, we actually published it after I would know. Okay. And then you wrote a second book fairly recently, correct? I did. I recently published a book called Prison Rules, which prison does not rule. But these are kind of like...

I see what you did there. Of the yard of... Yeah, the title I wanted to play on the words. I don't know. Maybe people will get it. Maybe they won't. I think it took me a second, but I got it. But it's kind of like a rough outline of what you expect if you're going into prison

or if your family member is in prison, you can read this and kind of know what they're going through. I actually put some of our prison recipes of food that we would make from the commissary. I have a few recipes in there, which is, eh, the food's not the greatest in the world. but we would do our best to make it taste good. Just kind of what to expect how to carry yourself. Again, it's for people going into prison. It's for people who are just curious about what it's like in prison. If they have a family member or a friend in prison, they can revisit.

It'll just give them a better idea of what is going on the inside. I'm not sure why people are so bad. personally. What happens in prison? Well, I think it's just a morbid curiosity. Like, you know,

because you hear all of this stuff. And then like for somebody like me, um, it's what's fact, what's fiction. And I think that people get their mind blown. Like, you know,

you had a job. You, like, I didn't know that that was a thing till just now that you had a job. You went to pretty much every day. And in my, I'm not going to do this to the podcast people because they probably don't care. But I'm like,

well, then what happens if you're sick? Like, do you call into the job? Like, you know, how does that work? but yeah it's just and i mean can you get fired from the job oh yeah okay it so unicorn is

you're kind of like a trustee but not really um for a friend shop that i worked at there was about a hundred guys that worked there and we ran the entire shop there were staff members also there, they would make the phone calls to the vendors and the outside people that needed to come in and fix machines. But yeah, I mean, it was basically a full-time job. If you were sick, you would send a message down to the shop and say, I can't come in today. But most guys liked Uniform. It was hard to get into.

I think when I got there, there was a waiting list for like a year to get in there, to get a job in there. and the pay was just a little bit better. The federal prison system, you have to work. It's actually, it's law that every federal inmate will work. Whether it's in the kitchen or in the unit cleaning or cutting the grass in the yard, every federal inmate has to work unless they're medically cleared not to. So they have all these jobs in prison

and they usually pay you 25 cents an hour instead. Unicorn pays a little bit more. I think it's like 46 cents an hour to start. And then they have a pay scale. So after so many years you are up to, I think it's $2.25 an hour is the most you can make. But for somebody doing a life sentence, that's their money.

They can save up some money, and they can send some money to their kids or to their parents or whoever. So, yeah, to me, that's a good program as well. I know we spoke about some of the programs, but I think Unicorn was a good program because it actually teaches guys skills. I am in contact with some guys that I was in there with,

and they have jobs in the printing industry, men in machines. So that's something they learned on the inside, and that's variable, the outside. Well, I think it's good, too, because it gives you purpose and something to do so you don't lose your mind. You know, you're going to work every day, work in your schedule. And so it gives a sense of normalcy to be able to do that. So, and I think that if you're trying to, and I think, you know, we talked about this earlier, but you're going back to the

rehabilitation side of things, you know, prison systems really don't, for the most part, don't rehabilitate. Like you said, there's criminals in there learning to become better criminals. There's, you know, the, the rate to reoffend. And so he said earlier, I've, forget what the word you said was your issue. Mine is, you know, the reward for reoffending that I cannot say that recidivism. That one, I struggle with that. It's high in the federal system. Yeah, it's very high. I think it's like 75% within like the first couple years go back in. And it's, it's, it's pretty big because the system doesn't set you up for success when you get out. No, it doesn't. And, and then people are hesitant to hire you when you get out. So you're very limited. So then you put you back in that type of a

situation. And that's a different discussion for a different day, is prison reform. But I mean, I think it's all very fascinating. So we have a little bit of time left. If, you know, obviously purchase Gary, you know, Gary's books, you can do so. I'll put the links in the bottom by them on Amazon to hear a little about his story. And if you, and I think that if you have somebody in your family, which there's a lot of people who do who are in prison, then the prison rules book might be a really good thing for them,

something for them to read and might give them a little of insight of somebody who had to spend, you know, close to 20 years in a federal prison. But before we close out, is there anything else that I didn't ask you or anything else that you'd like to talk about or say that we just haven't? I was thinking about it as far as my message and what I wanted to convey to everyone who's watching and sitting here with us. I saw a quote the other day. I'm big on quotes because it helps.

me throughout years of times where I didn't think I was making out. I had these little mantras that I would tell myself. One of them was they could always be worse. But I saw this quote the other day and I can't repeat it exactly, but it was something like your life, you're just one choice away from a completely different life. Good quote. And that has sat with me. me and it's been kind of washing around in my washing machine brain.

And it's just you can make a choice and live with the consequences and just be a victim and choose not to continue to grow and live your life. Or you can just live your life and choose to make the best out of everything and to grow and be a better person. And that's what I'm just going to continue to do. And I think everybody should. I don't know. That's what the world needs.

People would take more responsibility for themselves. I make the best decision. Yeah, I agree with you. I think accountability is a huge thing. It's a sign of maturity. It's a sign of growth. And you know what? I think it's also a sign of strength.

Because to be able to sit there and be like, you know what? I was not even something as big as like committing a crime. But like even just in general, like to be able to say, hey, I was wrong. I shouldn't have done this and admit that maybe you're imperfect. And I think that a lot, I think that's a really great thing to close on because there's a lot of people who, who I think could benefit from hearing that message and say, hey, you know what, maybe things could be a little bit different if I were to just take accountability for my actions.

And it takes a weight off of your own shoulders. It takes a weight of whoever, you know, you might have impacted. And I think that that's a really great message. Yeah. It really is a release to where you can say, yeah, I own up to my life and I own up to the things that I did. And I'm going to get better and continue to move forward and grow. Yeah. I think it's great.

Well, Gary, thank you so much for coming on and sharing your story with everybody. I think it's a pretty incredible and impactful and powerful story. And I hope that, you know, listeners, you guys take something away from it. That being said, thank you so much for coming. Gary and we will see you guys next time. The views and opinions expressed in this episode are solely those of the individual speaking and do not necessarily reflect those of the host. Unheard is intended to provide a platform for personal stories and lived experiences, not to establish facts, determine guilt, innocence, or provide legal, medical, or professional

advice. Listeners are encouraged to conduct their own research and form their own conclusions. Thank you for listening to Unheard.