Unheard: True Crime in Their Own Words - Alissa Turney: They Called Her a Runaway. Her Sister Changed Everything

Episode Date: March 23, 2026

In 2001, Alissa Turney went missing from her home in Phoenix, Arizona. Her disappearance was quickly labeled a runaway case, and for years, it received little attention from law enforcement.But her sister, Sarah Turney, refused to let Alissa’s case disappear.In this episode, Sarah Turney shares the full story behind the disappearance of Alissa Turney, including the early failures in the investigation, the disturbing allegations of abuse and control inside their home, and the role their father, Michael Turney, played in the case. She explains how she began questioning the narrative she had been told and ultimately used social media and true crime platforms to bring national attention back to Alissa’s disappearance.That renewed attention led to the arrest of Michael Turney in connection with Alissa Turney’s case. However, the trial ended without a conviction, leaving critical questions unanswered and Alissa Turney still missing.Sarah Turney also discusses the emotional impact of the case, the challenges of navigating the criminal justice system, and the broader issues surrounding missing persons cases, child abuse, and investigative failures. Through her podcast Voices for Justice, she continues to advocate for Alissa Turney and other families seeking answers.This episode covers the Alissa Turney case, Sarah Turney’s fight for justice, the investigation into Michael Turney, and the ongoing search for answers in one of the most well-known missing persons cases in true crime.If you follow true crime, missing persons cases, or stories involving family advocacy and justice system failures, this is an episode you won’t want to miss.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Today's guest isn't just a guest on this show. She's the reason that one of the most disturbing cases in recent memory was ever taken seriously. In 2001, Alyssa attorney vanished, and almost immediately her case was written off as a runaway. There was no urgency, no real investigation, just another file pushed aside. But her sister, Sarah Attorney, knew that that wasn't the truth. So she did something most people wouldn't even know how to do. She took the case into her own hands. She used social media reopen it to apply pressure and to force people to pay attention.

And it worked. Years later, their father, Michael Turney, was arrested in charge in connection with Alyssa's disappearance. But what followed next wasn't justice. The case never reached a conviction, and to this day, Alyssa has never been found. You may know Sarah from the documentary Missing Presumed Dead and from her own podcast, Voices for Justice, where she continues fighting not just for Alyssa, but for families who feel that they've been ignored too. Because even now, there are still more questions and answers. This isn't just a story about a disappearance.

It's about what happens when the system fails, and one person refuses to accept that failure. This is unheard, and this is Sarah Turney. All right, Sarah, thank you so much for joining us today. So I know that you have been an advocate for your sister, Alyssa, for quite a while now. For those who were listening for the first time who don't know your story, would you like to give them a little bit of background on what happened to Alyssa and kind of what you've been doing since that time? Yeah, I'll try to keep it short, right?

And I know it's a big story that, you know, could span a very long time. but essentially my sister list attorney went missing on May 17th, 2001 from Phoenix, Arizona. She was 17 and I was 12. And, you know, at that time when I was just a kid, you know, I thought that she ran away, that she started in a new life. I was very idealistic about it, you know, of course, as a child. And when I became a teenager, I became the point person for her case with police. So I was the person that they contacted for whatever they needed.

And at a certain point, they sat me down and said that it was most likely my father, who, you know, killed my sister and that the best course of action was to get media. So that's when I started reaching out to everybody I could to cover her case and eventually started my own podcast. You know, we did have a trial, of course, and, you know, that's why I'm here today, just to keep it short. Well, I mean, you don't have to keep it short just so you know, and I'm sure we're going to get some more of those details.

Sure. So I did read a little bit about the trial. So basically they threw out what happened because of lack of evidence that he would was technically acquitted. So even if they found, this is my question that I've been wanting to ask you, even if they found information today that led him to her murder, could they even try him again or would it be double jeopardy? So what I'm told by professionals is it's dependent on the evidence, right? Of course. So he cannot face the same charges of second degree murder, but he can face other charges, things like tampering with the crime scene, you know, lying to the police,

moving a body. So there are some charges. He's, he can still catch. That's interesting to know. Now, I know I kind of, I should have actually probably saved that question a little bit, but I was just very, very curious about that. But what I'd like to get into, too, before we get into the nitty-gritty is, you know, with these stories so oftentimes with true crime, real crime, people get disconnected into the story.

So what I'd like you to do if you're comfortable doing so is, you know, who was Alyssa to you? Like, what was your relationship like with your sister? you know, all that good stuff. Yeah, you know, it's hard, right? Because I think if you would have asked me when I was 12 years old, what I thought about my big sister, I would have said that she was the meanest big sister on the planet, right? I think a lot of siblings would characterize their siblings that way.

But of course, as an adult, I see it differently. So I feel like I have this mesh of, you know, who Alyssa really was. You know, really, I just thought Alyssa was the coolest. I wanted to be just like her. You know, we're talking about like, you know, the 90s and the early 2000s. So she wore like the big Janko jeans and the character t-shirts. She listened to all sorts of different types of music. You know, we enjoyed things like watching jackass together every Sunday night.

You know, Alyssa was the coolest. And she was also really sweet, but kind of also like took no crap. So really she was very kind to everyone and really thought about other people, especially her siblings. But again, if you went to Alyssa, you know, trying to pick a fight, she wasn't one to back down either. So she was, I always say she's kind of like a sour patch kid, you know, sweet until she's sour. I think that reference also perfectly like is perfect for the 90s 2000s reference to. Yeah. That's awesome.

I am the youngest. I'm a little brother as well. So I have an older brother who is six and a half years older than me. So I get exactly. Like they're so mean. They were. Yeah. Exactly.

right. Yeah. When I'm sure as a kid, you were like, my brother's actually the meanest and the worst, right? But as you get older, you know, you grow closer. and get over those things. Yeah, we have a pretty good relationship now. Then I have a half-sister who's a lot older, but, you know, we've always been about the same.

All right. So, so Alyssa technically was your half-sister, right? Correct. And your father, Michael, adopted her. So it was his adopted daughter. And you're his biological daughter. So when, I guess before I ask, the next question I want to ask, how was your relationship?

relationship with your dad? What was it like, you know, growing up with him? It was totally different than the relationship Alyssa had with our father. And I will say, you know, all of my siblings, right, there's six of us. All of them are half. Our family is his, hers, ours, theirs. But we all live together. We all called each other's siblings. But we were all also treated, you know, fairly different, especially Alyssa and I. Alyssa had a ton of roles, a ton of supervision. And I didn't have that. I was really close with my dad. I really thought he was, you know, a hero. I was always told these stories about him being a Vietnam veteran, you know, losing his wife.

You know, our mother died, unfortunately, when we were quite young. So there's all these stories that made me feel very deeply for my father and have a lot of empathy for him. And I think that drew me to him, you know, to be closer to him. So we were really close. You know, I considered him my hero and my best friend until I, you know, realized the truth about him. So when everything first happened, based on what I saw, the police treated was as a runaway. Yes, there was no investigation. Like, reported as a runaway.

They didn't do anything for about six years. And what was the date that she went missing was reported as a runaway? May 17, 2001. It was that night. Okay. And then how many years or how long until afterwards they decided that, well, hey, this might not be a runaway situation that this story doesn't. really add up. What was the time frame like that on that? So in 2006, a man named Thomas Heimer, who's serving a life, life sentence for murder, confessed to killing Alyssa. He also confessed to

killing about 22 other women, including J.C. Lee Dugart, who was found alive and well. So the FBI and the local police go out to investigate these claims. They deem that they are false. You know, they do not believe Thomas Heimer killed Alyssa. He wasn't convicted of any of the other confessions he, you know, said either. And that's when they started investigating. So around 2007, I would say. So there's a long time to get rid of evidence and make sure that things are, you know, and I want to say this because I get really frustrated when we deal with police. And look, and this is not to bash the police. I'm not, that's not who I am. But oftentimes when it comes to teenagers or preteens, immediately, it's treated as a runaway situation no matter what. And I get frustrated with that for a couple of reasons,

because, number one, even if they are truly a runaway situation, if you have a kid that's at a point that they're willing to run away, something's going on. There's a reason for that. I mean, sometimes it could be grooming. Sometimes it could be a bad home life. But there's something. But regardless, at that point, they are the most vulnerable that they can be

and subject to, you know, traffickers or, you know, violent offenders, anything like that. So that, first of all, frustrates me. And the other thing, too, is why not treat it as, you know, as suspicious until it's not, you know? I agree, yeah. And I'm sure you do, but I'm thinking about a case that's, I think it's a couple, it's almost a couple years or a couple years old now, Sebastian Rogers. They treated that as a runaway.

I mean, how many of these, you know, the same thing happens with a lot of Native Americans. They treat them as runaways. And by the time they realize that, hey, maybe there is something suspicious about this. Something's not adding up. It's too late. Evidence is completely gone. It's been, in your case, years before something happens. Yeah, and it's a complex issue, right?

Because we know that statistics say that most kids do come back. But how do we serve the population of children who do not? It's hard. Which is a lot of them. And again, if there's still, if they're going away, why did they run away? You know, so that's just an issue that I struggle with with the police and law enforcement because they're still they're still out there.

They still need help. They're still vulnerable. A thousand percent. I mean, I always make the argument that if a police officer had come out to our home on the day that Alyssa was reported missing, this would have been solved.

I wouldn't have to be here today with you as lovely as you are. I wouldn't have to be here doing this, you know? I would much rather you have that justice than having to talk to me as well. Same. You know, as much as I feel, you know, that I have a purpose in this community now,

I should have never had to do this. None of these families should have to do this. None of them. This was thrust on you pretty much when you were 12 years old, right? And I mean, this has now become the better part of your, well, definitely the better part of your life at this point. When did you switch? And I'm going to get into some more questions about your story or Alyssa's story. But when did you get to the point that you realize?

I mean, I know that obviously in 2006 you had the confession, but when did you get to a point that you decided that you were going to advocate, that you were going to be Alyssa's voice. you know, from this point on. Yeah, I mean, when the police told me to, you know, they, they sat me down and said, you know, we know your dad did this essentially. We can't do anything. We suggest you get media. You know, they made all sorts of promises of getting media, too, that unfortunately weren't fulfilled.

But that's when, when I was told to, you know, my first choice certainly wasn't for this to be all over the media. So let's go back to when this whole timeline. And I know that you gave us a brief synopsis. kind of talk through, you know, what happened from the runaway, from the alleged phone call from Riverside, you know, his story, like, what did he tell, you know, what did he tell you after the fact, you know, when the police did come to you and say, hey, this is what's going on. I'd be very interested in hearing all of that, I guess, for me.

It's a lot, but, you know. Yeah. The floor is doing. Yeah, and there's a lot to go over, right? you know, it's a very complex case, but essentially, you know, like I said, Alyssa went missing on May 15th. On May 24th, a phone call came into our house, right? And this is a confirmed phone call. We have the phone records of this. It was very early in the morning, and it's only a few seconds long. And unfortunately, you know, my father's changed his stories a few times about what, you know, Alyssa supposedly said in this phone call. But he says, Alyssa called from a pay phone in Riverside, California, you know, was not happy and then hung up.

up. So it's interesting because during that time, right after Alyssa went missing, he went out to California basically immediately. He was gone for the good part of that summer, you know, supposedly looking for Alyssa. But this phone call comes in about a week later and he doesn't tell me about it. You know, I didn't hear about this for some time until sometime after the fact. So it's not like he like ran into my room, you know, and said, you know, don't worry your sister's okay. I just spoke with her. this was kind of a hidden thing that I didn't learn about. I mean, I can't pinpoint exactly when, right? I was 12, but not until sometime after.

So that phone call happens and not much really happens until years later. Of course, in 2008, when they start investigating after the Thomasheimer confession, you know, it becomes very clear to them that our father is the primary suspect in this. And at that point, my father is not cooperating. He will not sit down for an interview with them. He absolutely refuses. That's why he makes me the family contact. You know, I'm pretty much used as a pawn because I'm a child. So I'm the one talking to police. He refuses. The police aren't getting what they need. So they get a series of search warrants for our home. And that's when they find, you know, the biggest gun and pipe bomb bust in Phoenix history. They, you know, they found 26 explosive devices inside of our home, along with a written manifesto of how my father was going to use it. So at that point, you know, they found 26 explosive devices inside of our home, you know, they found 26 explosive devices inside of our home, along with a written manifesto of how my father was going to use it. So at. So at that. So at that point he goes to prison, obviously. You know, he gets sentenced to about 10 years. And that's really the first time in my life that I get some separation from my father. Because I'm, you know, I'm like going to community college around the block. I'm about, you know, in my 20s. And that's, you know,

that separation helped a lot because that's when I was finally able to look at my dad as a person, you know, a well-rounded person and not just my father who I felt very deeply for. And so when I was able to make that separation and see him for what he really was, that's when I began to come around and think that he may have done this. So I want to, and I forget, because I did read about that and I forgot the whole pipe bomb IED stuff. What, yeah, because I didn't go this far into it. What was he planning to do with that? Yeah. So I can ask that. Yeah, of course. So my father was once a deputy sheriff, right? He has law enforcement experience. And after that, he began working as an electrician for the local IBEW, right, the International Brotherhood of Electrical Workers.

And he says that they have gravely wronged him. So in this manifesto, he discusses using these weapons and bombs essentially to blow up the building and kill as many people as he can. So, you know, essentially domestic terrorism. So that was what he was planning to do. And in that manifesto, he says that he's also enacting revenge for the murder of a list. He says that two of these union members confessed to him that they killed Alyssa, and in turn, he killed those two men. Again, there's so many rabbit holes in this case, right? But we know those two, yeah, it's insane.

But those two men were identified. They were deceased of other causes, not from my father. So, you know, and he's since retracted and said that that story was fabricated. So, I mean, why he was doing it, he says one thing. Do we really know the truth? I don't know. Well, it's easy to pin stuff on dead people because they can't defend themselves. Right.

Absolutely. That's terrifying. So you were going, this is just kind of a personal question, but how did it feel like when they discovered all these explosives? Because I'm guessing, you were still living at the house at the time, right? Yeah. How did that feel knowing that all of that stuff was in the house? To me, that would be terrifying.

Yeah, absolutely. You know, these items were apparently, you know, 100 feet from where I slept. It's not like we lived in a mansion. You know, we lived in a three-bedroom track home that was like 1,500 square feet. So, yeah, I was terrified and it was awful, absolutely, you know. And the thing is, like, we always grew up with guns, right? We're in Arizona. And my dad, my brothers, I have four brothers.

They all, like, like, to shoot guns. So I was used to seeing guns around. I'm not like a huge, you know, gun person. I didn't go out shooting with them. So I knew we had guns. I didn't know we had bombs. Yeah, bombs kind of take it up a notch a little bit. Right.

That is, that is terrifying. So, yeah, absolutely terrifying. So he gets arrested for that. He gets sentenced for that. How long do they give him? So he's sentenced to 10 years and serves about seven. It seems very light. Yeah, I mean.

I was planning. I believe 10 is the maximum, believe it or not. It's crazy. Yeah. And he even says it's double the maximum, which I don't believe is true. But yeah. It sounds like your dad. is not the most trustworthy person when it comes to information. So I think that probably what you know is more accurate.

No, that just seems, it seems crazy low for, you know, potential domestic terrorism. It was his first charge. So I think that was a factor too. So I'm guessing the answer is no to this, but do you have any contact with him at all at this point? No, no. We've been no contact for goodness about a decade outside of interviewing him about Alyssa occasionally. Yeah, I've kind of figured as such. So he gets out and then what happens with the investigation from there? Because now he's been in for seven years. So that puts us, what, 2011, 2012 somewhere in there?

Yeah, it's like, I think he gets out around 2017. Because, you know, court takes a while, right? So, you know, our lovely court system. So he's out around 2017. And in the weeks leading up to him getting out, I was told by my sister's detectives who had been on the case for about decade that he would be arrested as soon as he was released they were waiting for him to be released so that he couldn't combine sentences right because if he's if he's in you know they can combine the

sentences this is what they told me so um when he's released i'm fully expecting him to get arrested and he doesn't you know and and that's when i go back to the detectives um and they sit me down and say listen we know um but get media so i mean that's what i was told is we can't arrest him you should get some media. And what's their goal with you getting media on? I mean, obviously brings attention to it. Are they hoping that more information comes forward or they just want the court of public opinion? Because oftentimes, to be candid, oftentimes the law enforcement does not want media,

especially social media involved. I mean, you've seen it. You know what it can do. Rumors fly. But like what was their goal with that? And what was their reason for not arresting him? I mean, they didn't tell. So the thing is, like, when you're a family member in these cases, unfortunately, they don't really explain everything to you.

And they do a really great job of not answering your questions directly when they don't want to. You know, and Alyssa's had good detectives and bad detectives. But, you know, the ones I was dealing with that day didn't tell me much. They just said that they can't and to get media. And I still ask myself that question. Like, was this a real thing they wanted me to do? Or was it a measure to make me go away? you know, because they also promised me a billboard on every freeway in Phoenix with Alyssa's name on it and picture on it. And that never happened. And to add to that, you know, so I met a woman named Kristen Thalen and her sister is Brandy Meyer. She was murdered in Phoenix, most likely by Brian Patrick Miller, you know, the canal killer, if you will, is the moniker he's been given. And they did the same thing to her family. That same detective went to her home, sat her down, said, we know exactly who killed your sister, down to the color.

of trash bags her body was put into. We cannot make an arrest. We suggest you get media. So why this detective and this department does this, I can't say for sure. I don't know. I mean, if you have a goal for media like, hey, we need more information, maybe get the public's help on that, but to kind of give no direction on what they're doing, it seems, in my opinion, kind of counterproductive and really kind of counterintuitive. Yeah. And no assistance, because I would go back to them and say, hey, I have this opportunity to do media. They would love a member of law enforcement there to speak as well. Will you do this with me?

And they rejected me every time. Have you ever, and I don't know if this is possible, have they, is there any path to having this become federal? Well, the FBI has been involved in the case. Okay. But I mean, to make it federal now, I mean, if we find her remains across state lines, which we do have a search coming up in March in California.

So, you know, at that point, I believe it would become federal. I think the FBI would likely step in. I think that you get a whole bunch of different resources when it becomes, when it becomes federal. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. So you've been doing obviously research on this for a long time. What, where do you, I don't want to ask this.

What do you think as far, do you have any inclination of timeline? Obviously, you have a search coming up, which, which is great. That means you have an idea that she could. possibly be in this area. I guess what do you know at this point that you didn't know before? Do you get what I'm trying to? I don't know how to ask this, but you know, hopefully you get what I'm trying to ask you. Yeah.

I mean, so when I got my sister's case file, I learned so much. I learned, it was like an encyclopedia of my life that nobody ever told me about. Because like you, I'm the youngest, right? And my oldest siblings about 20 years older than me. So I missed out on so much. There was so much I wasn't told because I was just a kid. And what I learned when I was reading these documents is that I was the last person really to think that my dad did this. You know, there are interviews with my brothers, you know, essentially saying we think our dad did this, that Alyssa came to us and told us about the abuse that we were, you know, in fear for her life.

So I think that was one of the biggest things. You know, and also just just learning more about all the lies my dad told me and, you know, who he really was, how all these people that I thought, you know, liked him were terrible. of him. So it really just like rewrote almost everything I know. But I mean, in terms of evidence, unfortunately, because of that gap, you know, we just have a lot of circumstantial evidence. And that's what's hard. You know, I will say that I think the crux of my father's story has kind of fallen apart, right? And let me explain it's in those documents, it's very clear that my father had in planning this for some time. You know, for example, when Alyssa went missing, a note was left behind.

And it points to a few different things that happened, you know, in the months and almost a year leading up to her going missing. You know, it says that she's going to California, which references a conversation she had with our aunt about going to live with her. And Alyssa and I, you know, discussed that and she didn't want to go live with her. It also discusses Alyssa taking $300, which is an incident that my brother confirms happened about a year before. Melissa returned the money,

you know, whatever. But everything that I found in there points to my dad, finding this note about a year before, keeping it, and then, you know, waiting for the day that he could do what he did. Which, of course, the last day of school, right? That means nobody's going to notice if she's absent. Nobody's going to be calling,

wondering where she is. He kind of has that whole summer to clean things up. Very methodically planned. I mean, that's my belief, yeah. I mean, it sounds that way, though. I mean, there's not that many coincidences, right? All right. So for listeners, you know, every once in a while, you know, obviously I know what I was telling

Sarah before she came on was I know a little bit about her case, Alyssa's case, but I didn't do the deep dive because it makes these conversations more fluid. So I'll ask you a question too on this. Because you mentioned the abuse between your dad and Alyssa. What was that relationship? Because I don't, I didn't get into any parts that read about abuse. So whatever you're comfortable there, I think I could probably guess based on what I do, but I'll turn that to you. Yeah. So, I mean, it turns out that Alyssa was very likely abused for most of her life.

So when Alyssa was eight years old, she went to a teacher who was also dating our father, unfortunately, and said, I'm having sex with my dad. This teacher did not report it to police, you know, as she should have as a mandated reporter. But that's the first indication that we have of the abuse. And not long after that, my father and this woman stopped seeing each other. And my father never brought another woman into the house. He never dated again after this woman. And as Alyssa got older, she continued to tell people that she was, you know, being molested by our father, that she was being, you know, tied to beds and gag, tied to chairs.

And some of her friends, you know, saw the physical abuse. In addition to her telling people, we have letters from Melissa, you know, saying these things. but, you know, I can also speak to what I saw in the house. I believe Alyssa was really trying to shield me from a lot. You know, Alyssa never came to me and told me about these things. But what I observed was a complete difference in how we were treated, despite me really like not being the best kid, right? Like, I broke rules.

I stole money from my dad. Like, I wasn't an angel. But Alyssa, I mean, my gosh, you know, at one point, he wrote Alyssa's rules on these giant poster boards and put them on the wall of our living. room for her friends to see. Alyssa wasn't able to go to a friend's house to spend the night without her parents signing a contract, or their parents, I should say. Alyssa was also made to, you know, sign a series of contracts stating that she was not abused

by our father, that I was not abused by our father. So the abuse, I think, kind of encompasses all, right? It was physical abuse. It was emotional abuse and it was sexual abuse for most of her life. You know, this was what she had to live in. And when I reflect back on the relationship between my father and Alyssa, you know, again, this is this is purely abuse. But what it looked like was more of a romantic relationship in the way that they would speak to each other and the way that Alyssa would challenge him. Because it's not like Alyssa was cowering in fear, right?

She also had, you know, some good control over this, which I think is very interesting. But yeah, I mean, she was just, as far as we can tell, abused, you know, very early on starting at least eight years old. That's absolutely horrific and tragic. And it makes me wonder how, how, so she was 17 when she went missing. Yeah. How, when was her, how long after that was her birthday? It was right after her birthday. So her birthday was April 3rd.

She went missing on May 17th. So she just turned 17. Because I wonder if there was a conversation along the lines of once I'm turn 18, you're, you're in for it, you know? So, yeah, yeah. So Alyssa was telling her. friends that she, her plan when she turned 18, I'm going to try not to cry, was to leave and take me with her. And that's why she wanted to wait until she was 18 so that she could get us both

out and like legally adopt me. So it's hard, right? Because I get, like, I was just 12 and I try not to put guilt on myself. But like, the fact is she stayed for me. Well, you can't, you look, and I know me saying this is not going to change the way it makes you. It makes you. feel, but you were a little kid and you didn't know what was going on. You wouldn't have known. And I do want to go back to something that you said too, because you said that she told the woman that teacher slash woman that your dad was dating as an eight-year-old that she was having second. Eight-year-olds don't know that word. Exactly. Exactly. I agree. I wanted to point that out because I didn't want to breeze over that. They don't know that word. The only way that a child would

know that word that young is if, is if something was happening. Especially. especially back then because the internet wasn't even near what it, what it is today. Yeah, we didn't even have a computer, you know, until we were much older. Yeah, because I was born in 82. So, you know, that's that same exact time frame that I grew up in. And I remember it vividly. And, you know, remember the JNCO genes and the character T's. I could not pull off JNCOs, by the way.

Did not work for me. But I remember that. And so, you know, it's not like nowadays where you could be accidentally exposed to something on the internet. It would have to be very specific. So that's that's but you know it even though I do like the fact that even though you thought she was mean she was still like she would I think it's like one of those only your older sibling can be mean to you nobody else but she still was looking out for you.

Yeah. So that's I think that that's that's pretty awesome. Yeah she threatened my friends a lot who were mean to me. It was definitely that situation of only she got to pick on me. Absolutely. My brother was was the same way. He was very mean. But so she's been telling her friends for a year.

She's been telling, and I got to really commend this because for a kid to, to number one, come forward about that and tell who they thought was a trusted adult, this, then tell friends. I'm sure she probably sounds like she told a lot of people over the years what was going on. Number one, the sheer bravery of just doing that is incredibly, I mean, that's incredible strength. But were there ever calls to like CPS? Like did you ever have, you know, family service? Like did anybody try to do anything to intervene?

So CPS first came into our lives when we were very young. Right after our mother died. They came to our home. They spoke with us. And my father very adamantly warned all of his children very often that if CPS came into this house that we would all be separated and never see each other. So we lived with that fear every day. But I will say that the next incident was about, it was like maybe about a year before Alyssa went missing.

And it was actually our father who called CPS himself and said, my teenage daughter is going to call you and lie and say that I am sexually abusing her when I'm not. And they didn't do anything. They didn't send anybody out. Like, you know, they took it and like didn't do anything. I mean, yes, he called and basically tattled on himself. He even called the police and asked what he could do. about his child lying about him and even asked if Alyssa could be arrested for being gay. So like there's a lot of really odd behavior where he tells on himself preemptively,

in my opinion, you know, to cover his butt. I was definitely to cover his butt because I guess again, I'm guessing that they're starting to have conversations about like I'm, you know, once I'm old enough, you know, because I think that that was, and this is just me guessing. She was worried about you. She didn't want to leave you alone with him because what could have happened to you. So she was like, I'm going to wait. And then once there's probably conversations was, you know, once I'm 18, I'm out of here.

I'm taking Sarah with me. You're not going to harm anybody again and you're going to go to prison. I would imagine, based on what you're describing, there was probably a conversation similar to that. That probably took place more than once. And he was getting worried. Yeah, that's my best guess too. Well, and, you know, another incident that I think is really important to discuss is, you know, again, about a year before. When I think my dad decided to do this, the story goes, Alyssa told this to several people, including members of our family.

He says that he picked Alyssa up from school. They drove to a desert area. He tried to sexually assault her. And she flipped out. She flipped out, got out of the truck. He calms her down. She gets back inside. And when they pull into the driveway, Alyssa runs.

She runs to a neighbor and begs for help. And my dad goes over there and convinces the neighbor that she's on drugs. You know, he says that she's on LSD. But the end result of that is Alyssa demands to go live with our brothers for that summer. She says, I'm not staying here. I'm not staying here with you. I'm going to go live with them. And my dad concedes to that.

My dad says, okay, you know, and lets her go, but continues to watch her from afar while he's there. So, yeah, I think things were escalating. I think that, you know, she was getting older. And Alyssa was strong, you know, and our dad's, our dad was born in 1948. gate. You know, he's, of course, strong, but also kind of old. No offense to anyone of that age range. But the reality, they're almost 80 at this point. So my dad was born in 45. He is 80. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You know, and Alyssa was such a fighter. So I think that, yeah, to your point, it was escalating and he was getting more and more scared and, you know, picked his date to, you know, get rid of her. Again, the last day

of school makes the most sense in my mind. But yeah, he's he's also a very intelligent man. Like I think a lot of people just think that he sounds insane, which, you know, he does to a certain degree, but he's also extremely intelligent. So yeah, to your point again, I think it was escalating. To me, he doesn't sound insane. To me, he sounds incredibly manipulative. Yeah, that too.

Which typically requires a fair bit of intelligence. I grew up in a household. my mother's and like the probably one of the most manipulative people I've ever met and and it's insane but she's also very highly intelligent so you have to be in order to do this because you know to get ahead of some of these things to be able to put it on them and then yeah she he looks calm cool and collected and she looks like you know she she's screaming to the void basically so she ends up looking insane as kind of like a reactive the way she's acting it's basically reactive abuse because she's still young.

She doesn't realize that she's being, you know, the term gaslet wasn't really been used back then. But if she doesn't realize she's being gasset, she doesn't realize that he's manipulating everyone around you guys to make her look like the person who's insane that she's on drugs. She's, you know, she's lying. She just wants to get me in trouble.

And he looks like, you know, he's this, like you said, older veteran, who's, who's, you know, a widowed father. of these kids. And I think that that's, you know, that's too often, especially back then, that's too often a problem.

Yeah. And former law enforcement. You know, I think that that was part of it too. Absolutely. Yeah. So there's a lot of things working against Alyssa in that situation.

Yeah. And I can tell you, you know, growing up with 90 sitcoms, you know, saved by the bell, like all these, you know,

lessons that you learn. When I, you know, when my dad would tell me things like Alyssa, you know, snuck out and drank beer, which I was there.

Like she did, she came home, drunk, you know what I mean? And I genuinely thought that like she was throwing her life away, you know, because when you watch these shows, you know, somebody has one beer and then they have this huge come to Jesus moment about how, you know, they're on the wrong path. And so that's what I thought was happening, you know, that my dad was stepping into helpless and make good decisions. When really, I think we know and we can all acknowledge as adults that things like drinking and trying weed as a teenager is extremely normal and common. It's not something that, you know, typically

destroys your whole life. Well, and I'm pretty positive to your point that there was a Boy Meets World episode about that where I think Sean got drunk. And I think there was one where maybe DJ did in full house, maybe. Yeah, yeah. And there was definitely, I don't know if everyone family matters. But yeah, I know. You're right.

That was kind of the thing. Say by the bell, I don't remember if there was one with alcohol. I'm pretty sure there was definitely one with caffeine pills. Yeah, Jesse. I'm so excited. I'm so excited. I'm so scared. Like, you know, that's what I thought was going on.

You know, fun, completely, complete side note. That was not supposed to be caffeine pills. It was supposed to be drugs, but the network nixed that because it was supposed to be a kid's show. So they had to make it something. They had to tame it down and not be drugs. So it was caffeine pills. Geez, 90s TV. 90s TV.

Still great shows, though. But yeah, you're right. It was like one thing, you know, you were throwing your life away. The DARE program was huge back then. So it was, you know, everything was very anti-drug, anti-this. And when you're, again, 10, 11, 12 years old. it's the worst thing that you could possibly do. Yeah.

And even Alyssa, when she came in drunk, I remember she was like, Sarah, come here, come here. Right? And I'm like 10. And she's like, don't ever drink. Don't ever drink. You know, because she's drunk and it doesn't feel so good. Right. So she's warning me like, don't ever drink.

And I was like, this is serious, you know, like her whole life is gone. So yeah, it's different time. And let's figure whatever alcohol you're getting in high school, especially back, it was not good. It was below the bottom shelf. So. Yeah, exactly. All right. So where does the story go from here at this point? Like, you know, from where we left off? Because I know I kind of went on a tangent with sitcom. Sorry about that. But, you know, where do things go with her story from here? Like from this point?

Yeah, like today. Well, I meant like even in the story going back then, but yeah, you can go today. It's, it's up to you, wherever you want to go. We can go back. I mean, there's so much to explain. I guess it's whatever you want people to know. I mean, it's complex as late. We have as much time as you want. So it's it's really whatever you want to say. I know I've been jumping a little bit, but there's a lot. Like you said, there's a lot to this. Yeah. No, and that's okay. So I think a good place to go back to is 2017 when my dad is released from prison.

You know, at this point, I already think that he did it. I did try to confront him, but that was when he was in prison on like a recorded phone line, right? So I tell him things don't add up and he just kind of changes the subject. You know, that's what he does. So when he gets out, I tell him, I want to see you. let's meet in person. I have questions. So we meet at like a Starbucks and I sit down with him and I ask him all these questions. I also have my phone on the table recording. You know, I'm like, just in case, I want to be able to give this to police if he says something. And during that conversation, he said two things that really stood out to me. I mean, he said a lot of crazy things. It's like an hour long and it's available to listen to. But I think the things that people really stick on and I stick on, you know, at one point in this conversation when I am telling him that I think he killed Alyssa, he tells me, come to the deathbed, darling, and I'll give you all the honest answers you want to hear. Awful, right? And I say, well, why don't you give him to me now? And he says, well, you have him now.

You know, he starts laughing at me and says, what do you want? And then not long after that, he says, Sarah, all agree to confess to anything if they give me lethal injection within 10 days of that confession. So I leave this conversation thinking, I got it. I just got my dad saying that, you know, that, you he did this, that he'll confess, that, you know, come to his deathbed and he'll tell me that he killed my sister. So I go to the police with this recording, and they say it's not good enough. So, I mean, that, you know, for me, it was all the evidence I ever needed to tell me that my dad did this. The way he was speaking to me and trying to intimidate me in that conversation was just unreal. And I think it's partly because I'm not sure if he knew I was recording. I assume so.

it was right there in the middle of the table. But there was something about his bravery in that conversation and his lack of reluctance. Like he was an open book and was just, you know, saying the craziest stuff. So I think that's one of the craziest conversations. And as I continue to speak with him over the years and ask him questions, he just dials it back and back and back. And he just doesn't say what he used to say. Because I also had another conversation with him where he thanks me for what I'm doing. He's like, well, thank you for keeping Alyssa story alive, like you're doing right by your sister.

And I tell him, I say, you know, I just went to this crime con event. It was my first crime con. And I said the producers of ABC 2020 asked us to come on and talk about it, but they want you there. So you're thanking me for doing this for Alyssa. Please help me. We could get so much more exposure, potentially get the lead that, you know, solves this if you do this show with me. And he essentially hangs up. So we have these sorted conversations.

You know, I put out the podcast after being highly encouraged by my creator friends. You know, I'd done like dozens and dozens of podcasts and went on all these YouTube channels. And I was kind of at a standstill. And so people were like, just create your own podcast. I do that in my closet with like no money, no idea what I'm doing. You know, luckily people listen. I joined TikTok in 2020 and my videos start going viral, you know, just millions of views

insane. I don't even know how I did it. And then in August 2020, I get the call from my sister's detective. You know, he's like, are you sitting down? We just arrested your dad for Alyssa's murder. And I get emotional because, you know, he basically says, like, you were a pain in our ass, but you did it. Like, you did it. And I just remember asking him, like, is this real? Like, are you sure you're not going to, like, take it back? Like, I don't know what legal precedent I thought I was referencing. I was just like, are you sure? Like, you're not going to take it back. Like, He's really arrested. And he's like, no, like, this is it.

Like, we got him. And so we, you know, go through the trial process, which is about three years. And, you know, the first motions my dad starts to file are all about me. Not about his defense. You know, he starts filing motions to take every piece of media I've ever done down. Of course, you know, they're denied. And then they start moving on to filing motions saying that I was operating as an arm of the police. That doesn't go through because obviously I wasn't.

And then they start saying I was operating as an arm of the state. So there's all these motions just to harm me. And I didn't think that at first. I was lucky enough to have a victim's rights attorney work with me. And he eventually sat me down and was like, they're just trying to punish you, which is fine. Like whatever. Punish me. But like, again, why isn't the focus, Alyssa?

So this whole thing going through these three years of court motions before we get to trial was, you know, absolute. hell. And then we get to trial. And at this point, I've been told for three years that there are other cases, you know, that take precedent over Alyssa. You know, at this point, I'm talking to the state prosecutors. And for all these years, they keep saying, we're going to get to your sister's case. We're going to get to your sister's case. And it's maybe three weeks before that they say, okay, we finished up the other case. It was actually Brian Patrick Miller, you know, Brandy Myers, all that, which I was like so happy, you know, for some of the those people to get justice, but they finally get to me and they're like, well, we wrap that up.

We want our case. Now we're going to focus on your sister, three weeks before trial. And on top of that, the main prosecutor is going on vacation for a week. So the night before. Yeah, exactly. For such a large case, it took me more time than that to go through the case file. And the night before trial, I get a call for my victim's rights attorney. It's about 9 p.m. and he asks what I'm doing. And I'm like, I'm trying to relax.

I'm trying to deal with, you know, potentially the most difficult situation I've ever been through tomorrow. And he says, well, they have questions and they want you to find certain pieces of evidence. The police told them that they've released, you know, all these audio tapes to you. And so I'm like, okay. And apparently they released these to me like 10 years prior. And they're asking me to get these. I couldn't find them. They're asking me, you know, which brother has which mom?

They're asking me to talk about the day Alyssa went missing. So I walked into that trial the next morning knowing that things were bad and that they didn't know the case. And I later learned from Melissa's friends that they were doing the same to them, like asking these very rudimentary questions that in my opinion should have been known long before the first day of trial. So we go in, you know, we have the trial. I get to be in there because I'm a family member and, you know, a witness. Because usually witnesses, like, don't get to see the whole thing, but because I'm a family member, I do. And I just knew from the start, you know, they didn't have a cohesive story to tell about Alyssa. It was very sloppy.

They didn't know her. They actually brought in her detective of 10 years to sit right next to them and kind of be this, like, encyclopedia of Alyssa, because they didn't know anything. So, yeah, I guess in short, like, the whole. trial was just extremely disappointing. And I remember I would go home and watch, you know, because it was like live streamed on court TV or whatever. And I would go back and replay the comments because, of course, I want to know what people are thinking. I'm like reaching for any information I can at this point. And people were like, I listened to this case. I know more than this prosecutor knows. Like, why is the prosecutor presenting this like this? And yeah, I truly thought

if this went to the jury, we would have won. Because I think, you know, 99% of people who hear this story, you know, see what everybody else does that our father, you know, did this. And they had filed for so many mistrials at this point that I was kind of used to. Like almost every day of trial, there was some new motion to dismiss the case. So even though they weren't prepared, I still had hope we would win. I was just extremely nervous. Then they called that rule 20, you know, quitting him. And I remember turning to my victim's rights lawyer and I was like is it done like that's that's it like we're just done and he was like yeah it's over he's he's gonna be freed that is beyond enraging like I'm enraged hearing this I can't even

imagine how you were in that moment or even still yeah I mean I get like I just feel like Alyssa didn't have her fair day in court you know and if she did they had all that evidence and presented it, I would probably feel very differently. Like, you know, fair is fair. And if all that's presented and he is found not guilty, it is what it is. I'd have to live with that. But she didn't even get her fair chance in court. He was acquitted on a technicality, not because of exoneration.

Exactly. A very rare technicality, too, yeah. He had a very, I mean, it was public defenders, but they were very good. Well, it sounds like they're better in the prosecutors, which is, again, that's rare, too. Yeah. Well, Vincent Bardino, the main gentleman, you know, he has been doing this since the 70s, you know, and I spoke with another prosecutor, you know, because I, of course, I'm like, I speak to lawyers and prosecutors. I'm like, what do you guys think? Like, please, like, tell me what you think. And I remember one of them said, listen, this guy, this gentleman has been doing this for a long time. He's very complacent. And from what you're telling me, it seems like he just doesn't care. And you see that sometimes with these prosecutors, you know, well into their 80s. So, yeah, I, just, I just, I think after winning his big serial killer trial, he was exhausted and didn't do the research and was just kind of going with the flow.

And then that's when you step down and you no longer do it or you reassigned to somebody else in your office who, who can. That is, that is so, and are you able to file any type of motions based on, on his lack of, I don't know the legal terms, but I know that there's got to be something out there that if, if counsel or prosecution didn't really do their job, like, is there a way, I mean, I'm sure you've looked into this, but is there a way to go back and, like, demand a retrial? I know that if there is, it's very difficult, but I mean, is there anything like that out there? So, yeah, I did look in, of course I looked into this, right?

Because I'm, like, insane about it. But so, no. So when it comes to me having any legal standing for Alyssa, I unfortunately don't. So in my state, you have to be a parent, spouse, or child of the victim to be able to file on behalf. like that of the victim. And because I'm just a sister, I don't have any legal standing. Is it possible to get power of attorney after the fact?

I don't know. That's actually a really great question because like if Alyssa's by it, because Alyssa obviously has a biological father who's still alive. If he could perhaps grant. No, but he couldn't either because he gave up custody legally. But she's gone now. So he could, you can mean somebody could possibly apply for,

for, I don't know how it would work, power of attorney over her estate, so to speak, and then be able to make decisions on her behalf. I should look into that. I would be absolutely willing to do that, yeah, because I'm happy to go the wrongful death, you know, suit, like whatever it takes. Well, yeah, and that's a civil suit, and you can do that. I would definitely, at this point, I mean, I don't know what it would take, but, I mean,

you've been fighting for this very vocally, very publicly, for a long time. I can't imagine, given the circumstances that somebody would, look into it, I would, I would definitely get with an attorney or, you know, do some research into that because that could be a game changer for you, honestly. Yeah. Well, and in court, I was legally recognized as next of kin, you know, because there was really nobody else there for her. So, I mean, I wonder if that could impact it too. I think so. You know, I guess you have some work to do after we, we end this. Yeah, I'm happy to do it. Thank you so much. My goodness. Yeah, absolutely. Sometimes, I think outside the box sometimes, what can I say? But there's, I just, I love talking to people about it.

I mean, because everybody has different ideas and opinions, and that's wonderful. Thank you. And I don't know if it'll work, but I just, it's frustrated because there has to be something. Like, it can't just be like, okay, he committed murder. He's got to deal with it until his deathbed where he confesses it. You know, because then there's no, what it, I had something put recently, very recently, interview, which actually the first episode of this podcast was with Elizabeth Smart. And what she said something was very interesting. We don't have a justice system. We have a legal system. There will never be justice for what was done to you.

And I'm like, that is so profound and accurate. So, you know, you have a legal system. You don't have a justice system because there will never be justice for Alyssa being taken away. That just can't happen. So, you know, but there has to be something legally that can be done to hold him accountable in some way. So while all of this was going on, was he out on bond or was he held for these three years while he was in while they were waiting and preparing? caring for trial. He was held.

He was in prison. Thank goodness. Yeah, it's, you know, some form of justice, if you will, that he served, you know, two and a half years or whatever it was. Not enough, but, you know, at this point, I am kind of taking crumbs, fighting for more, but taking the crumbs as I can get him. Take the little one. So before we get into kind of like the next, you know, segment of the story, let's, you know,

so your dad is, if he was born in 48, that puts him at what, 70, this year? Yeah, and about two weeks he'll be 78. 78. So, you know, obviously the clock is ticking on that. So let's say that it does get to a point where it's a deathbed confession type thing. I'm guessing you would go to here to get your answers, you know, if you have that opportunity. But what would that, I mean, would that do anything for you as far as closure? No. I mean, to be honest, not really, because, like, him telling me that he will confess, like, is enough for me. I mean, I guess it would be like an extra layer of closure perhaps. But, you know, to be honest, I get I get asked all the time, like, do I think he'll really do it? And no, I don't think

he has that kindness inside of him. I think that he was just taunting me at that point and basically, you know, dangling in front of me that he got away. Because even he thought he was going to be arrested the moment he was released on those charges. But I mean, you know, if I got the call saying, you know, dad's on his deathbed, go see him. Like, I would just to see what he says. Because otherwise I feel like I would wonder what if for the rest of my life. That's fair. So where do you want to take the story from here? Yeah, I mean, it's hard.

I would love charges. But of course, I think the next logical step is looking for Alyssa's remains. You know, in all these years, it'll be 25 years this year that Alyssa went missing. There's never been a search for her. You know, I've gone to the police with free resources, you know, Texas Equus Search with, you know, dog search teams that are, you know, well-renowned. And they kept telling me, no, you know, it's too dangerous, it's too big. And here's my problem with that is, you know, early on, there was a 2020 episode about this back in like 2009. And a detective from the Phoenix Police Department went on there

and said that we want to search Desert Center, California. That's where we think Alyssa's remains are. And that's because in that manifesto we talked about, that's where he says the two men from the union buried Alyssa. So it is a shot in the dark, but we want to search in that area because that's exactly where the Phoenix Police Department says that they want to search. So like I'm partnering with the Gabby Petito Foundation and the Light the Way Foundation. They have been wonderful. They are doing most of the legwork, which, you know, to be honest, it's, it, the search for her is more difficult for me than getting media. I never want to be the person that finds my sister's remains. I feel like it's going to break me.

but I'm willing to do it. So we're going to go out there and we're going to search. And we had a very honest conversation that the odds of finding her are abysmal. You know, to be totally honest with you, it's extremely low that we might find her. But one, it will check this, you know, final thing off my list that I've truly done every single thing I can for my sister. And two, we all agree that the probability of finding someone is high, right? Just like in the Gapito case, like the many people that were found, while searching for Gabby Petito.

Or nine? Yeah, it was like eight or nine. So out in that area of Desert Center, California, it's like truly, there's like a tiny little town and then it's like all desert. So we think we might find somebody, you know, and I would love for us to find Alyssa. But if Alyssa's legacy, I get so emotional, can also be helping people and helping, you know, other families have more answers, you know, then that's also a best case scenario for me. So, and I want to say this too for people listening,

support the Gabby Petito Foundation. Actually, I was talking to Nikki this morning. Well, yeah, she's wonderful. Yeah, she had, I talked to all of them too much. But, like, I love them. I love them today. Yeah, yeah. They're wonderful people.

But support Gabby Petito Foundation. I mean, what you guys, you might know Gabby's name. You might have seen the documentaries, but what they've done with this foundation is they've changed. They've literally changed the laws in the way domestic violence. cases are handled. They're using it to help find missing people. They're putting the effort in the right places. And, you know, it's not free to do all of that. So gabia patito foundation.org for those who want to help out. But yes, please, please. And I was actually talking to her this

more. It's like, when are we going to record with you and Jim? So, you know, I'll say this too. This podcast exists. I'll say this for the people because I don't think I've said this is at all in any episode that I've recorded. This podcast exists because of Nikki. So, yeah, so basically it was right after their Netflix documentary came out. And by the way, Nikki is Gabby Petito's mom. And she was talking about how she was frustrated that they recorded for like eight hours and that they basically just put in the documentary stuff that people already knew. And she wanted all this other stuff out there.

And so I started thinking about it's like, well, what if we created, you know, a platform where people can do exactly that without interruptions, without an angle? you know so that's kind of that's kind of why this so you can blame nicky for this i've told her that like a bunch if you have to be on it because you're the reason you know is your fault that this exists so funny well funny enough there's a netflix documentary in production right now for alissa and it's by the same production company who did uh the gabby pincito documentary so nicky and i have talked about this you know she's been very candid with me which i i really respect and also you know in the most polite way slightly threatened the producers to treat me right. So Nikki is a wonderful human.

You know, they, they, they have power with who they are and with their name and Netflix seems to really respect them. And there's reasons I say that and I will leave it at that publicly. But, but yeah, they seem to do right by them. And I like that because they deserve it. So Gabby's story is absolutely tragic. Alyssa story is absolutely tragic. So, you know, oftentimes, and I'm not saying that your dad's a narcissist. but I'm using that as an example. Because I mean, I don't know. I mean, it sounds like he's very manipulative,

but people like that who gaslight who manipulate. Oftentimes, accusations are confessions, right? So when you sit here and say that he wrote down this thing that these two men allegedly buried her in this part of California, I mean, that could be very accurate at this point in time. But like he said, it's been 25 years. But at the same time, you know, it is desert, right? It's very dry.

I mean, that's kind of the problem, too, when you're looking at searches because you're in a state like Arizona, you know, she could possibly be in California or anywhere between. And there's a lot of desolate, dry area that isn't accessible. Yeah, exactly. And he was so familiar with the desert, you know, born and raised in Phoenix and went out, you know, shooting all the time in the desert. He was extremely familiar with the desert. So that makes, that adds another layer of complexity and difficulty because, I mean, at that point, unless unless it ends up being that easy that like, okay, hey, he said this, this is where she ends up being.

I mean, she could be, you know, literally anywhere. Yeah, yeah, unfortunately. Yeah. So what do you think? I mean, do you, I mean, obviously, y'all are doing a search, but, you know, do you feel like there's number one accuracy in that statement? It's my first question, and maybe I should have started with this one, given that this has been information that's been out there for a while, that they found this manifesto, you

know, with this information, with these stories, why is it 2026 before anybody decided, hey, you know what, maybe we should look there? Or is that a great question? Thank you. Yeah. Yeah. We don't have an answer. No, we don't have an answer. And, you know, I'll be honest. I wish I did it earlier and it's something I've been avoiding because I don't want to be the person to find her. Like, I've gotten a tip from someone, you know, saying Alyssa was out in this patch of desert near my home. I told the police. They didn't respond for a little bit. So what did I do? I went out there myself. you know, sobbing, crying, recording the whole thing, being terrified that they were going to, like, accuse me of tampering with evidence if I did find her, you know, so it's something I'm willing to do.

It's just not something I feel like I should have to do. And it's also something I've been, you know, semi-advised against. I've been told by police and lawyers alike that if I'm, if I am the person to find my sister's remains and there's no law enforcement to vouch for me or be there present to witness this, that they could easily argue in court that I, like, somehow fabricated this, right? Because there's, you know, years of me saying that my dad did this. So, you know, as they'd present it in court, like, of course, she's the one who found it. She's the one saying her dad did this.

You know, it jeopardizes the evidence. So, yeah, I wish they would have just searched for her the moment she went missing. I wish they would have searched for her the moment they believe that she could be in Desert Center, California. But they haven't. And, you know, I've been thinking for years of how to do this. And organizing a search is not something I'm. I'm very familiar with.

But like I said, luckily, I have these two organizations who are familiar with these processes and are helping. I wish we did it earlier, but I'm glad we're doing it now.

To me, that seems, that is also enraging, by the way, that they're like, oh, we can blame it on you. You were 12.

So, you know, it's very easy for, you know, an ME, if she was murdered 25 years ago, it's very easy for an ME

to determine that based on on everything you know the state of the state of the body or the state of the remains whatever's left yeah so they're going to argue that a 12-year-old got in a car drove from her home in Arizona murdered somebody bigger than them had the for the wherewithal to bury them in the desert and then decide 25 years later that hey now we're going to look for her and it's not my that that's yeah i mean another thing you're not doing yeah it's insane it's insane but it's what these lawyers do, right? And like, I get it. Like, defendants need a defense. I'm not saying that. When it comes to my dad, I have less empathy, right? You know, which I think is fair. But even in court,

they at one point accused me of working with Thomas Heimer, that man who confessed to killing Alyssa, to frame my dad, that this man really did kill Alyssa and that we've been working together to frame him. So what these lawyers will pull out, who knows? Like, I get that everybody has to have an attorney. Like, you know, I get that that's part of our constitutional right as Americans that you have the right to a free trial. But it's, it's one thing to give proper representation. It's another thing to flat out, like, make shit up to try to get somebody who's got, you know, a lot of evidence stacked against them. I just, it, it blow, it blow, I know that it's not uncommon, but it blows my mind. But especially a public defender because, like, why do they care? Oftentimes public defenders have

real law firms that they're just doing their hours that they have to they don't put a lot of effort into those cases solely for the fact that they were getting what a few hundred bucks maybe a thousand bucks for each one and you know but so to put that much effort into something like that is I mean unless Arizona does it differently you know it just makes it blows my mind yeah I mean I think the strategy was like you know they call me like the key witness which I think is so interesting because I was 12 and didn't see anything right But I was certainly like the biggest enemy in that case, right? You have your youngest daughter coming out publicly and screaming about how you killed her sister.

Like I think it was in large part in effort to discredit me so that the jury wouldn't believe me or feel any sympathy for me. You know, because of course, like what's a jury going to believe when, and really it was all of his kids. All of his kids sat on Alyssa's side saying that our dad did this. And so they had to come up with something, you know, to discredit that to tell the jury that, hey, despite all of this man's children, you know, believing that he killed, you know, his daughter. He didn't do it. It's, I'm going to come back to the court system in about two seconds, but I do want to ask us, do any of your siblings, does anybody have a relationship with him at all still?

Or is everybody pretty much no contact at this point? Only one. My oldest brother feels an obligation to care for our father in his old age, despite saying openly that he killed Alyssa. Well, he's not, he's not obligated. that's, you know. And that's what I said. He told me I was obligated too, and I said, no.

And no way, shape, or form, am I obligated? Absolutely not. And none of us feel the same way as he does. And look, and I'll say this for anybody's listening. There's going to be people that disagree with me. Even if you have the greatest relationship with your parents, you're not obligated to care for them as they get older, just because they raised you, quote, unquote, the best they could when you were younger.

Now, if you want to and you choose to because you have a good relationship, then great, but it should be because you want to be not out of obligation. So I'll say that. Now, I want to go back to the court thing, so they're trying to make you out to be the bad guy here, try to discredit you. And this is another thing that I struggle with with all sorts of these cases because now, I mean, you're still a victim of all of this, right? Because at the end of the day, your world's turned upside down. Your sister goes missing. You know that she's murdered.

You find out that your dad is, is a, you know, a murderer, a child rapist, a liar, manipulator. And, you know, somebody that you were very close to. so you're a victim in this too in pretty much every sense of the word and so instead of like being there to support the court system, the legal system goes out, goes out of its way to re-traumatize you with everything

that's going on and it's so it's so incredibly hard in my language it's so incredibly fucked up I agree to do that and it's it's they do it with children they do it with so many situations and there's just got to really be a better way to handle this, in my opinion.

But they also re-victimized Alyssa in court. You know, their biggest, you know, talking point, they basically said that Alyssa was a slut left and was probably killed because she was so promiscuous. And we're talking about a girl who just turned 17. Well, let's, I think that's what pissed me off the most. Like more than even attacking me, the fact that they spent so much time disparaging her in court when she is a victim who was sexually abused for her entire life is something I will never forgive the court system for. And I get it. You have a job to do. So do your job. He deserves a

defense. You're still a piece of shit for doing that. End of story. Yeah. Yeah. You're absolutely. You don't have to do it because you don't have to do it that way. You know, you don't have to sit there and disparage the victim who's not even there to defend themselves. But let's explore that for a moment too, because we're going back to the 90s and early 2000s. And again, it was a very different time the way that you handled, you know, that type of abuse versus now, you know, and that was still the time period where, you know, what did you do? What were you wearing? What did you? You know, that was still very much the thing. Number one, they would never have said that about a man or a male victim. They would never be like that's exactly right. That's the first thing I'm going to say.

The second thing I'm going to say is let's just say, let's just say that she was promiscuous. Okay. Well, could that possibly be a result of being raped for your entire life? Yeah. And that's, I was begging the, the prosecution. Where are experts? Where do, where are experts to talk about childhood trauma and abuse? And there's no proof that's true anyways, though. You know, that's why I said, there's no proof that it was true anyways, though, that she was promiscuous. Yeah, yeah.

You know, it's, but I'm just saying even if she was. So to do that, that is, I feel like we should blast the, the attorney, like, is his picture. Is it as Jamie Jackson? Please, feel free. Yeah, well, we'll talk. Let's get a picture. I'm going to put a mark right here for my, my editor.

We'll get a picture of him. Throw him up right here next to you and all of his information. Well, people know him too because he's the one that screamed at me in court. Yeah. He literally screamed at me. So yeah, we're going to do that. And by the way, for the people listening, you can't see that unless you're watching it. But just know, it's Jamie Jackson out of Phoenix, Arizona.

Yes. Yeah, so he's an attorney with the DA's office, I assume. And so you can find the rest of the information there. I'm not telling you to do or not do anything. I'm just telling you the information for you to know it. I'm not encouraging anything. That being said, Yeah, please don't like docks anybody, guys.

Don't knock anybody. But you could write some strongly worded emails if you. Yeah, I mean, and to be fair, like it was live streamed. Like, you know, his face, he didn't hide it or ask for it to be redacted or anything. So I don't think he has a problem being attached to this case. Well, social media didn't exist like it did then, like it does now then. So he might feel differently if clips start coming back up. I mean, people, people were pissed.

I mean, that is. I didn't expect people to have that strong of a reaction. but they did. Well, to sit there and blame, I mean, when you know these facts and you know this information that's there and even, even with the accusations being there and, you know, you have, you know, all of these people, you know, turned against their father to be on Alyssa's side. That says, that speaks volumes, you know, when, when you look at that. And I'll give you an example of one that you might, okay, said, I'm sure you know, but like

the Menendez brothers, for example, and people feel one of the other. every single living family member, including Jose and Kitty's siblings, I think, but then with them have sisters who are still alive. All of them are on the brother's side, believing the abuse, believing everything that happened. And so when you, and that's kind of part of what helped lead to their resentencing that happened, I think, a year or so ago. But that speaks volumes when you have an entire family sitting there against another, either for or against another family member.

And in this case, you had both. So that's very powerful. And for them to overlook that is also, I find quite challenging. Yeah. I mean, you know, of course, I'm looking at the jury the whole time. Yeah. And when you look at them, they seem pretty appalled by the whole thing. I really do think if it went to the jury that he would have been found guilty.

Well, I guess I hope that, you know, some information comes out of California. That's the hope. Yeah. Yeah. Or you get power of attorney. and you kind of read. I know, who knows where that could lead. Yeah, no, that was a great suggestion.

But yeah, I mean, and that's, you know, a big reason why I still do media too is, you know, you never know. We see cases solved all the time. Like a new tip comes in. Somebody finds something in an attic. Somebody passes away and then they find something like DNA, whatever it might be. Even things that, you know, probably weren't released to me. I know I don't have the whole case file, right?

Of course they hold things back as they should. So, yeah, that's my hope is that, you know, someday something comes out that, connects those dots and we either get more answers or, you know, he gets charged again with something different. And he at least held till trial and, you know, because at this point, the clock on him is ticking. Yeah. You know, so the other thing I wanted to, and I know we talked about this earlier going back to like the federal situation. So let me go back to the phone call that you talked about, the documented phone call from Riverside, California. So you said that he got that call. When that call allegedly came in. Was he in California still at the time? Or was like, it was like an early cell phone

and he was back in Arizona? Yeah. So it came into our home phone, which, you know, our home phone has had a passive, well, did, had a passive recording system on it since before I was born. Since the 1970s, you know, you picked up our home phone and it automatically started recording. We also had, you know, a hidden camera in the vent. We had cameras outside of our house. And there's no footage of this anywhere. He has no audio of that phone call. There's no video. of the day Alyssa left, no video from, you know, inside the vent of my dad getting that phone call. Just nothing. So, but did they, so it's not really a confirmed call then. It's just his, what he's saying.

Well, so here's the thing. So when the phone call came in, my dad had several options to identify the phone number. He says that the call came in. He couldn't trace it. But one, we were paying, I think it was like $10 a month to have people our age will probably remember this. You used to have to pay for a caller ID box to attach to your phone. And it was like a $10 month service or whatever. So one, we had that. We also had Star 67. I think it was either Star 67 or Star 69, the callback service where you punch that

into the phone. Yeah, it told you the phone number that just called you. So my father bypassed both of those options. And he immediately went to suing the phone company for this phone number. So he gets the phone call. He says he can't find where it's coming from. you know, despite these options readily available to him, he instead goes to the phone company,

which at that time was Quest, which is no longer around now. And they say, sir, we'll give you this phone number for a $500 fee. He doesn't do that and instead decides to sue them. And the results of the lawsuit is they get the number. We know that this phone call really came in, but that's all we know.

There's no confirmation of who was on the other end. Do you know if the phone call actually came from a pay phone, like he said? Yes, it came from a payphone in Riverside, California, outside of some type of convenience store. And unfortunately, by the time the police investigated this, of course, there's no surveillance from, you know, six years ago or whatever. So they can't, like, you know, retrieve any footage from the cameras. What's your theory on the phone call? Yeah.

So there's a few different options, right? Like I said, my dad immediately after Ellis was gone, started going out to California. So I think the most likely scenario is that he paid someone. I mean, he could have known somebody that would do that for him, but I think it would have been cleaner if he just paid somebody to do it. So that's my theory is that in all those trips out to California, he's somehow arranged to get this phone call. That's again, some very high level manipulation. And I kind of think that too. Maybe you just pay somebody to do order you know somebody out there.

Yeah. It just doesn't make sense. There were so many options to get that phone number sooner. you know, how did it bypass all their surveillance? Like it just, there's too many coincidences for me to believe that was Alyssa. And to be fair, you know, the police believe the same thing. They don't think Alyssa made that phone call either. It's assassinine.

The story's insane. I mean, it really is. I see, you know, I see why you, and I feel like there's probably a lot more layers we haven't even talked about at this point. But like. Yeah. But that's okay. Yeah.

Maybe, maybe. That's why I have like 30 episodes. It's so detailed. Yeah. And we're going to, and you're definitely going to have a chance to promote, you know, your podcast as well and into the projects that you're doing. What else have we not talked about that you want people to know? I mean, you know, there's so much.

I think it's just a demonstration of how abused children can fall through the cracks of every system, right? The school system, CPS, local police, federal, you know, at this point. And it's just so hard. And I don't want to say necessarily. like if you see something say something because I don't want to victim blame. You know, most of the people who knew what was going on in this situation were either children or highly manipulated by a list as killer. You know what I mean? So yeah, I think it's just a good demonstration

of legal justice doesn't always, you know, give us the answers that we think they do. And that sometimes there are cases like this that hang in the balance that may never see, you know, justification, if you will through the legal system. Yeah. You know, I think there's so many lessons to be learned, but if I had to pinpoint it, it's that sometimes we just have these deep-rooted tragedies and these kids who fall through every single system. And Alyssa's not the only one, right?

You know, we see it all the time. And, yeah, I just think it's a hard thing. She's not the only one, unfortunately. You know, unfortunately, I cover, there's a lot of cases of harm against children. And one thing that you learn is that oftentimes there's no accountability, right, that people get either very easy plea deals because the prosecutors just want to win or, like you said, they become complacent. And so they're like, oh, well, you know, oh, he raped this child for this long, for this period of time, this many years. You know, five years, if he takes a plea deal, that's still a win, does that begin to make up for what happened? absolutely not.

You know, somebody like that needs to be locked away. When you're doing that, you are a danger to society or a danger to everybody else. You need to be behind bars that they don't. I actually started, you may or me out as a plea deal or a petition to end easy plea deals for child predators, which we just hit 200,000 signatures on it because it's just, it's amazing. Yeah, it's enraging how bad this is because, you know, there's situations and this is one. And I think I'm going to have this guest on at some point too, but or one of her, maybe not

this guest. but one of her attorney's clients who's a similar story. But, you know, I have a friend of mine who's an attorney out of Pennsylvania, and she was telling about this case where basically right before COVID, this two or three-year-old girl was getting, you know, raped at a daycare. And then, you know, they did everything right, right? They did the forensic interview. They did the kit.

They did everything they were supposed to do in COVID hit. And they kept pushing, pushing, pushing. So by the time she was finally, to go to court, she didn't remember anything because she was a little kid. So guess what? Abuser goes free. And that is a common, unfortunately, it's a common story. And if that, and if you're listening to this and that doesn't like just fill you with rage, then, you know, it's sad and it's not fair and it's not right. And so that's why, you know, kind of trying to change this and shed light on those stories. But Alyssa's one of those too. You know, this went on from eight to 17 when she was

killed. So you're talking about, you know, and do you, do we know that it started eight? Could it have started sooner? I guess it probably did. It's very possible. It's very possible it could have started sooner. Our mother actually before she passed, you know, took both me and Alyssa to go get checked for sexual abuse. And unfortunately, we don't really have those medical records, right? Because we were children, they, they can't be released or whatever. So I don't really know what came of that. But certainly it seems that our mother, you know, suspected that something might be happening. Unfortunately, shortly after she was diagnosed with, you know, stage four cancer and passed very quickly. So yeah, it's certainly impossible it was happening. So you're looking at

at least probably 10 years that this went on continuously and this was the life that she got. That was the life that she knew and that's that's heartbreaking. Yeah. I mean, her whole life, her whole life. And despite that, she was like so happy outside of that. Every time she was outside the house. She was so happy and such a truly kind person who stuck up for other people. And I think that's because of the abuse that she endured. I think she truly never wanted anybody to feel like she did. I think that, you know, for a lot of people when you're a victim of some type of abuse or survivor, some type of abuse, you try hard to advocate. I think that that's just, you know, for a lot of people, at least it makes you, I don't know, feel like you're doing something

that you don't want anybody else to go through what you went through. So you educate. and you do the best you can and you try to help. Well, go ahead before, I guess we close off for today. And I feel like almost that we might need to do like a follow-up on this because there's still so much more. And people can drop that, you know, wherever you're listening and let us know. But I want you to talk about your podcast, your projects, things that people can do to help it to listen.

And so before I turn it over for you that, guys, you know, follow her podcast, download, subscribe. That helps. You know, follow her on social media. interact with content for her because all of that kind of stuff helps get this message out to more people now i'll let you i tell people what you're so sweet yeah i mean honestly like you know watch listen to whatever you want about alissa i you know i very much think that there's value in hearing from the families you know and people who knew these victims i think that there's perspectives

you can't get anywhere else um but of course i'm biased in that way um so yeah of course if you want to hear a super deep dive that I did. The first season of Voices for Justice is all about Alyssa. That's my podcast. And there's like 30 episodes outlying everything from my dad's time and law enforcement all the way up until right before the trial. Now, I am working on releasing a new season to, you know, quote, finish her story, even though it doesn't really feel finished ever. But, you know, I'm following up after the trial. So look out for that. Of course, the Netflix documentary is coming out. You know, you can follow me on social media. And, And I will say, you know, a big part of continuing Alyssa's legacy now is, you know, my,

my continuation of voices for justice. I do an episode every week, every Thursday. I put out a new case in need of justice. I often speak to families. And my whole goal with being in this space, right? Because I didn't know. After my dad was arrested, I was like, what do I do? Like, do I just stop?

You know, I knew I had to stop talking about Alyssa. But I had built up this platform, these million followers on TikTok, you know, this semi-success podcast, if you will. And so I wanted to continue her legacy by helping others. So if you care about that, and do you want to hear, you know, a family member perspective about true crime, listen to Voices for Justice and share these cases, you know, I really do want to continue Alyssa's legacy by helping other people. I think that's beautiful. And I think that that's great. I mean, it's, I think that it takes us, we were talking about the potatoes earlier to, you know, but you're Nikki and they're not the patina, you know, Gabby's parents because they're less, yeah, yeah.

different, but you know what I mean. We were talking about them earlier. And I think that it takes somebody very special and very strong. And I truly mean this to, to number one, stand up and be a voice for somebody who no longer has one. But then while doing so, helping others and being a voice for others is, you know, because people can get their case looked at, get it solved, and that be all that they do, you know, or even not even go that far, rely on just law and enforcement, you know, whatever happens or doesn't happen, you know, that's how it goes. But for you to do what you're doing, 30 episodes is, you know, a million followers on TikTok is huge.

Obviously, we all know that. That's pretty, I mean, it's impressive and I think it's pretty amazing. And I hope that, you know, obviously, if there's anything that I can do to help support that, you know, let me know, of course, too. Yeah, thank you. I really do appreciate that. And thank you for having me on and, you know, helping amplify Alyssa's story. Absolutely.

And so for the, for her socials and, um, her podcasts, Voice for Justice. We'll put those links in the show note for anybody wants to find them. And Sarah, thank you so much for joining me today. Yeah, thank you. We'll see you guys next time. The views and opinions expressed in this episode are solely those of the individuals speaking and do not necessarily reflect those of the host. Unheard is intended to provide a platform for personal stories and lived experiences, not to establish facts, determine guilt, innocence, or provide legal, medical, or professional advice.

listeners are encouraged to conduct their own research and form their own conclusions. Thank you for listening to Unheard.