Unheard: True Crime in Their Own Words - Ashleigh Banfield on What Really Happens Behind True Crime Coverage

Episode Date: February 9, 2026

In this episode of Unheard, Justin sits down with legendary journalist Ashleigh Banfield for an honest conversation about truth, trauma, and the media machine that shapes how the world sees tragedy.Ashleigh reflects on her journey from small-town newsrooms to the center of history, including being in New York on 9/11, running for her life when the towers collapsed, and continuing to report in the aftermath. She opens up about the emotional toll of covering national tragedies like Sandy Hook, high-profile cases like Casey Anthony, and war zones around the world, and how those experiences permanently changed the way she approaches journalism.The conversation explores the responsibility of reporters in moments of crisis, the harm caused by conspiracy culture, and why empathy is not optional when telling stories involving victims and survivors. Ashleigh also talks about her evolution beyond traditional news and her work today as the host of the podcast Drop Dead Serious, where she continues to examine complex cases with depth, integrity, and compassion.This episode is a rare look behind the headlines and into the mind of someone who has spent a lifetime bearing witness to history.Follow our guest: https://www.dropdeadserious.com/See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Some people chase headlines, some people chase fame, and then there are journalists who chase truth, no matter the personal cost. Today's guest is a legendary broadcast journalist who has spent decades on the front lines of history. She's reported from war zones. She was in New York on 9-11 and had to run for her life when the towers collapsed, and then she turned around and kept reporting. She has covered school shootings, mass tragedy, and some of the most watched and debated true crime cases of all time. She has seen what these stories do to victims, to families, to communities, and to the people. people tasked with telling them. She also is the host of the podcast Drop Dead series where she continues to dig into stories

that don't fit neatly into headlines. My guest today is Ashley Banfield. And in this conversation, we talk about her journey from small town newsroom to major networks with 9-11 changed inside her forever, the emotional toll of covering tragedies like Sandy Hook and how cases like Casey Anthony reshaped true crime media. We also talk about conspiracy culture, media responsibility, survivor advocacy, and why empathy isn't optional in journalism. This is an honest, raw conversation about what it really means to bear witness to history.

Let's get into it. Well, Ashley, thank you for joining me. Before we get into cases, specific cases, I'm curious, who were you before this career shaped you? Gosh, I'll be honest with you, this same person. I mean, I was this kid who never shut up. I feel that, like for me too. I just always wanted to be the center of attention to a fault.

I annoyed the hell out of every teacher, my siblings, everybody. And I felt like I could never be heard. I was the youngest of four siblings in a very loud family. And I felt like I just had to break through the noise in order to be heard at the dinner table. But, you know, I always knew that I wanted to communicate and perform in some way, you know. And so before I became sort of a full-time professional television journalist 308 years ago, you know, I was banging around through drama and music and singing in bands and enjoying sort of that kind of presentation and entertainment.

And at the same time, you know, writing for a newspaper and photography and the school, yearbook. So I was doing a little of all of it. And I always loved languages and politics and current events. So I blended it all together. And the natural result of that mixing pot was a career in television news. So how did you get, because you go from music to, you know, kind of basically a lot of the arts. How did you steer it? How did you get steered towards journalism and being a TV anchor or TV, you know, news personality? So the original decision. making was kind of early. I was really lucky. I was in ninth grade sitting in Mrs. Sharp's history class and she's teaching British history and I remember having this epiphany.

Like, who wrote all this stuff down first? You know, like everything you're teaching me, somebody wrote it down and saw it. They were the first people. They're the ultimate gossiper, right? Describe, who did that? This would be so interesting to be on the leading edge of this and to be the one that literally writes the book for everybody else for millennia. You know, I thought that would be pretty neat. So that was the first kind of idea that I had, like, boy, I'd sure like to be the person that, you know, is out there telling everybody how it happened, you know. And, but at the same time, I still really loved performing. I loved stage performances. I was in every school play and in university. I was up on the stage with a musical comedy cabaret troupe and singing in different bands. So I wasn't sure, you know, what kind of a future would I have, if I went the Broadway route. Not much of a dancer. I'm a good singer, but I'm not a great singer.

So Broadway's going to be pretty tough. And the road to making it big in Hollywood is paved with remarkable talent, you know? And I just thought I don't see, it's too much, there's too much of a luck quotient into going into the performing arts. I think I'll blend all of my skills and my smarts and my interests and come up with sort of an also-ran hybrid. And that was how I chose journalism. that's fascinating so when you first got your start what was your very first job in journalism

cameraman um i did not study anything to do with television or journalism in college i did politics and france and so uh i came out of university with my degree and started in the smallest station in north america literally of the smallest station the population was 11 000 people and i'm sure only four people were watching it on a given night. It was this tiny little station that had like barely up an employee, you know, and I remember going in there and saying, I look, I just graduated from college. I'm a nothing. I don't know nothing, but I want to learn. And if you give me a job, you know, just let whatever job it is, I don't care. Just let me read whatever's in your garbage can if I'm the one cleaning out the garbage can. Just let me read what's in there. I think they

like that. And I got the job and they said, well, you know, start with the camera and learn how to, you know, balance the sticks and do a white balance and start shooting for the lake report because this was a lake town, a mill town or a mill town and a forestry town and a lake town. So that's what I did. I started figuring out how to get the sticks and the camera balanced and do the white balance and shooting audio. And then because we were all one one man bands, essentially, you know, there are only three of us. eventually I got to do some on-camera stuff and eventually I got to anchor that little tiny 10 o'clock show all by myself and literally alone in the studio

with a piece of paper with typing on it and a handy cam that was about the extent of that television job but it was good you know I learned all the that's insane story that's insane funny what was your first story that you covered ever well I can't really remember because it was so they were all so small town right like well the lake would up an inch today and the fishermen's, you know, the Smokin Fish Derby has its winner and, you know,

stuff like that. But I will tell you the one that stuck out the most, it was the summer where Ben Johnson, the Canadian gold medalist in sprinting, won is gold medal and then it was taken away for drugs. So I remember that was pretty darn significant. Not for that town, but for Canada. And so that was leading that newscast. And then another story that I remember that summer where I started was a friend of mine was arrested by the DEA and the Mounties for drug trafficking. And I had to read it on the air that night. So it was pretty rough. Like, oh, my God, this guy, I mean, he was like a, you know, a loose acquaintance

a party friend, but someone I knew. I mean, I knew well, yeah. Yeah. So that was kind of like, oh, that's, I guess that's how this career is going to go. That's hilarious. Did you have that report before you went on air? Did you find out on air? No, I had to write it.

I'm like, oh, God. Yeah, yeah. And I just remember thinking like, God, I didn't know he did all that. Well, yeah, I guess did he go to jail? Did he go to prison? He did. He went to prison. It was a big load.

I guess he was like, I guess he was getting drugs from the U.S. over the water. And it's pretty easy to, you know, get across the border, you know, around Ontario and late country. and that's why the DEA was involved with the Canadian Mounties. That makes sense. It was very sophisticated. Yeah. Yeah, that's that's nuts.

What took you from this tiny station to like what came after that? Like I'm sure it moved up, but like you eventually got to CNN. I know that. Yeah, yeah. So it was just sheer ambition. You know, I was learning the ropes at this little station and I was there for I think five months. and then the big city next door is Winnipeg where I grew up. And I thought,

wouldn't it be great if I could get a job in Winnipeg? Wow, that's really big time. And I got a job as a temporary. Someone went on maternity relief and I got the reporter's job. And so I got that job, but it was very short. And as the maternity relief came to an end, there was no job there except for a researcher. So I took a step down.

And that was my first big lesson in television. Don't think that you're such a big. deal. You know, you're going to go from being an on-air reporter to the, you know, kid cutting out the newspaper articles and stuff and files and filing all day and handing the files off to the reporters as they go off to do there. That was the early internet, right? Files full of newspaper clippings. And so that's when I took my first big demotion to stay in the business and keep the momentum going. And then from there, that was Winnipeg. I was there nine months and heard about a job in Edmonton. And it was a weekend anchor, three-day week reporter, got that job. And it was a weekend anchor.

a three-day-a-week reporter got that job, did that for, I think, four years or so. Then I took this weird hiatus. I met a guy who I fell in love with and was going to marry, and we decided that we were young enough, but getting older, 20, what, three, that if we did do this round-the-world backpacking trip, now we would never do it, which is true.

So I actually left the job, which I thought I can't believe it, I'm scraping to get these jobs. And I'm going to walk away from this job to go around the world on foot with a backpack. And that's what I did for 1991. And when I came back, I tried to settle in Vancouver and nobody would hire me. And I took a temp job in Calgary. Again, a maternity relief.

I mean, I just always was diving for loose balls. Always. I took anything. And it was always a step back. I always took a step back every time I took a new job, you know. But I think that's the folly of a lot of, people in the business, they think they're too good to take that job beneath them. And so they stay unemployed and then irrelevant.

Yeah, my father used to always say, sometimes you've got to drop back 10 yards and punt. And I remember that because, yeah, when I, so before I was doing this, I was in medical sales and I was in insurance before that because insurance was recession proof. And I didn't want to do insurance anymore. And so I'm working for this company. The money's decent. And I'm just like, I just don't want to do this anymore. so I get a job.

My friends, like, you should apply for this company called Medtronic. Now, at the time, I did not know that Medtronic was the largest medical device company in the world. And I'm like, well, what the hell do they do? And it was insulin pumps. And so I did the interview, and they offered me a job. And it was very, very entry level, like, without getting into the details of it. But I turned it down at first.

And then I had that conversation with my dad, and I called him back and took it. I mean, it was like $20,000 a year less a year. And it was like when I was, I don't know, mid-20. So that was a lot. I already wasn't making a ton. Oh, you were way ahead of me. Yeah. Oh, my God.

You were way. Do you know my first job was $7,000 a year Canadian, which is a $5,000 a year salary. I couldn't afford the gas to get to work. Well, that was before the 2000s, though. So. Yeah, but not that. But I mean, it was before the 2000s. It was 88.

But it was still It was still brutal And then the next job wasn't a whole lot better I mean I went from 7,000 to 19 Canadian Which is 15 or 14 U.S. You know Yes

And then after that I think it was 29 And I thought, ooh, I'm rolling in it now Canadian They went 29,000 Canadian Again, that's about 24 20, yeah, maybe 24,000 American And that's my third job I mean, I was

still banking on all that waitressing money I'd done for six years during college. And I dropped, I was, I went from like the 60s and 70s plus benefits to 40. And so, yeah, it was, it was rough. But it was a good decision because then worked your way through the ranks and you move up. So sometimes that is a really good decision,

especially if it's something you really want, you have to take something beneath you to get where you need to be. You do. You do. You know, if there's anything, Justin, that people take from this podcast, I hope it's that. Because I've tried to tell people. I've tried to tell friends and colleagues in the business who are having a tough time.

And we all do. Every single person in television, I think, except for Anderson, you know, has been kicked to the curb, you know, at least once or twice. And in my case, dozens times. And so you just have to be really resilient. And you've got to, like you said, I wish I'd had that expression, drop back 10 yards and punt. It's brilliant. My dad got a lot of very... My dad has all sorts of expressions.

It's a really good one. It's a really good one. And it's essential to survival. It's essential. Yeah. The other two that he has that I like are a lot has been lost for want of asking. And the other one was go as far as you can. You'll see a lot further from there.

Those are his profound statements that he gives. He's good. But anyway. All that down. and published. I mean, I have it all memorized, so. It's good. Because I've heard it ingrained in me.

But, you know, so. I'm the master at demotions. I mean, I feel that. Taking them and then running with them. Because I think we can all agree, you can't do better than when you're on the inside. So if you're on the outside trying to get inside, you're not going to do better than the person who's already in the inside. So be in the inside, whatever the cost.

Yeah, that makes total sense. Then from all of this, you eventually get to CNN, correct? Yeah, so that was a bit of a leap. I was in Calgary and I was doing well and then got, you know, Tall Poppy Syndrome. I got this big job and then they hacked my head off and said, you're demoted down to a business reporter. And I thought, okay, well, now I got to start working on getting to the U.S. because that was always my goal. I got to move to the U.S.

Broadcasting in Canada is quite a blue-collar job. There really wasn't a lot of money to be made. Very, very few positions. And it just looked like the world was your oyster in the U.S. And so that was my mission. I just didn't know how long it was going to take, you know, to make that jump. So I, again, like a crazy person, I planned a trip to New York. I'd never been to New York in my life.

I'm 24 years old or 25 or something like that, maybe 26. And I ask, everybody I know, does anybody have a friend in New York? Does anybody have a friend in New York? I have a friend in New York. And I said, can I stay with that friend? I didn't have any money. And so they hooked me up with this girlfriend of theirs, and she agreed to have this strange girl come and sleep on her couch in Manette.

And that's what I did. I flew to New York. I slept on that girl's couch, and I met three different agents. And I signed with one of them. And that was sort of the start of getting interviews around the U.S. And I got a big job in Dallas, a morning show in Dallas,

which a year into that morning show, I got the 9 o'clock PM news. So things went really quickly in Dallas, and I was there for five years, and that's when I made the jump to national news, to network news, and it was actually to MSNBC. I interviewed with Fox, Roger Ailes, and MSNBC, Andy Lack on the same day across the street, literally from one to the other. And both of them made offers at the same time. And then they went back and forth, sort of up in the ante a little bit, but in the end, MSNBC was going to offer me real estate, like three hours on the air. And Fox News didn't have anything. They just said, just be patient.

We'll get you a job at some point. And I said I respectfully, you know, I'm going to accept the MSNBC thing. So I was at NBC and MSNBC for, I think, five years. I can't remember four, four and a half, something like that. And it was, it was awesome and awful. Everything about that experience was like the highest high and the lowest low. And I was like on the cover of Vogue magazine with the M. MSNBC and the 9-11 and the overseas war and everything.

And at the epitome of my career, I mean, the girl in the glasses on the front page of Canada's national newspaper and on the New York Post and everything. And then there's a lot of reasons I don't want to get into it, but they ditched me. They just kicked me in the teeth and threw me out like a, you know, used tissue. And I was like untouchable. Nobody wanted to touch me. No one would answer a phone call. And, you know, a few months before.

Yeah, it was like I'd done coke off of some kids, some executive's daughter or something, you know, naked daughter. Like, that's what it felt like. And I had done nothing. But it felt like there was some horrible infraction. I'm glad you weren't doing coke off of kids. That's, that's, that's, well, I meant, you know, you know, like 21-year-old daughter. Yeah, yeah. But it's that kind of thing.

Like, you know, it felt like I had done some horrifying things. And no one ever told me what it was or what it was, you know, but, you know, a few months prior of that, there were executives from CNN and CBS both wooing me to come and do their morning show. So Les MoonVez is calling me to come and do the CBS morning news. And who was the guy at CNN? Came and, you know, come and do CNN's American Morning or something or other and had a meeting with me.

And they, I had 17 months left on that MSNBC contract and they buried me in a basement and bled me out, led my brand out, like hid me away for almost two years. And after two years, people are moving on and I couldn't even get a phone call answered after that. It went from like, you pick your morning show to and you are. Wow. So I, yeah, I was out of work for two years. I was terrified. I was using up my savings in a New York apartment thinking, holy shit, what just happened, you know? That's terrifying. Yeah. And then Court TV was around the corner and that was a tiny little network. Nobody knew anything about it. And I thought,

this is one of those examples. What do you mean? I'm going from NBC doing the Today Show and MSNBC 9 o'clock. That's Rachel Maddow spot. You know, like the, I'm the biggest thing out there on the cover of Vogue to what do you mean I could get a temp job at Little Court TV that no one's ever heard of? I'll take it. Instant the motion. I'll take it. I'll take it. I mean, drop back 10. How about drop back five football fields and try puntae? That. That was what that was. And I said, if I don't do it, I ain't eating. Like, I'm not going to be able to eat.

So I did it. And that took me to Court TV, and Court TV took me to CNN. And then eventually to your own show. Yeah, I mean, Court TV was an amazing opportunity. You know, here I was thinking it was some podunk network. It was the best network I've ever worked at, honest to God. I've never learned more. I've never worked for more of a purest mission than Court TV that wants its viewers to understand the law.

and understand American jurisprudence and be invested in it and be good jurors. I just felt like I was doing the Lord's work. And I was seated beside a guy named Jack Ford, who was a Yale Law professor who'd also hosted the Today Show and Good Morning America. And all he ever wanted to do was teach me.

And I thought, who, what? This is a unicorn sitting beside me here. This guy wants to teach me the law. Any other partner, you know, in television would want to like, fuck with your prompter. Yeah. But nope, he wanted me to be great. And that's why I had a five-year law degree from that set, from that anchor set.

And it led me to ABC, which was very, very brief because the executive all got wiped. It was such a horrible confluence of circumstances. I got this great job at ABC. They were going to put an afternoon show on called Good Afternoon America. And they cast me secretly. And they were putting me through auditions to get my co-anchors. And in the middle of it, Disney cut every single one of those executives

and wiped out the C-suite and everybody who hired me lost their jobs. And there I was sitting there. Hello? Does anybody remember? I'm in the office down here on ninth floor. So that amazing promise of this incredible show went away

and not through any, maybe we never went on the air. I mean, nobody ever knew about it because it was secret. And so then CNN came calling and then I ended up going to CNN from there. Now, I'm going to switch gears a little bit, and I think I know the answer to this question because we've talked many,

many times. We're friends. But when you look back at everything you've covered, what stays with you most as a human, not just a journalist? Well, the biggest thing that stays with me, stays with me only because it affected my life so deeply and it was 9-11. I mean, I took me probably 15 years before I realized I was actually a crime victim. I never thought of myself that way. right? I knew that was. I knew that was going to be your answer, by the way. That's why I said that way. Yeah. Pretty hard for anybody who was down at the Trade Center when those buildings came down and nearly died to ever not say that was the most profound moment in their lives. To be actually in the middle of a terrorist attack and almost die is a bizarre thing to say. And I always thought

of it as a journalism experience, you know, but it took a long time for me to realize you're actually a crime victim. Like you get, you had horrible PTSD. You became a different person and not better. You know, and I also view the world totally differently. I have zero patience for anything.

And I have zero trust in anyone, you know. And so that would be the, that would be the, and I'm sorry, it's not for a better reason, but I think it was for a reason that I didn't even realize in myself until it's the real reason.

It's a real reason. It's a real reason. It's a, real reason and it's a impactful and profound reason. And for people, I mean, it's obviously as much as you're comfortable talking about. I know you're pretty open on it. But for people who don't know your 9-11 story, do you want to kind of shit? Because I think it's a pretty, I hate to use the word incredible, but it is a pretty incredible story, almost surreal. Because I've heard it. But if you wouldn't mind sharing it. I'll do an abbreviated version because it's pretty long and

drawn out. But I know I was working in Sea Caucus, New Jersey at MSNBC doing a show with Lester Holt called Newsfront. It started at 7 o'clock at night. So the shift was slightly later in the day. And I had a habit of getting up and running in Central Park and then showering and getting on the shuttle bus out to MSNBC. And so there I was getting back from my run right around 8.30 in the morning, jumping in the shower. And we all know what happened at that time. So I was watching it on, drying my hair and watching it on my set thinking, what the hell, a small biplane has just flown into the towers. This is going to be a huge story. It's like a towering inferno from the 70s, right? And I called the desk and I said, I have a better idea. Maybe I shouldn't get on the shuttle bus

and be out there in the studio with Lester. Why don't I just go right down to the Trade Center. I'll report from there live all day and be on the show from there. It'll be much better for everybody. Great idea. You do that. Okay. So I derived my mind. hair as fast as I could and was getting dressed and second plane hit. And it was like, oh, Jesus. This is, you know, we're not in Kansas anymore. And so, uh, things got a little crazy. The desk called me back and said, no, no, no, you got to come out to Sikakis and anchor from out here. I'm like, how old are you? You know, what are you talking about? That's the dumbest thing I've ever heard. And I just ignored it and kept on the mission of going downtown. Because I knew

whoever was making that decision was making a bad one and they'd reverse it soon enough. And if I got on a, Now I got in the tunnel was a wee harder to get back. So I just kept on my path and I went down to the subway and was trying to get on the subway to go downtown and right there on the platform, emergency, emergency, all subways have stopped. So I get back up to the street level. I get a cab and I say, just take me as far down as you can go. And he said, I'm not going all the way down there. And I said, well, just take me as far as you can. He stopped north of Houston and I had to run the rest of the way.

And as I was running with my little flip phone, tower, you know, the first tower came down. It was the South Tower. South Tower is the second one to be hit, first one to come down. And I am reporting and watching this. And there's this sea of people running this way up north. And I'm heading down south. And suddenly there are more dusty people. And there's like first responders and dusty people.

And there are cars that are abandoned all with their doors open. And it was amazing, actually, the cacophony of 1010 Winds, which is the news station up here in New York. everybody had their radios in their cars tuned to 10-10 winds and all these cars are abandoned with the doors open and 10-10 winds is playing. So I'm almost like hearing the news as I'm running by every car. And as I get closer and closer, I'm probably with it. And now I'm in like no man's land. There's almost no one around.

There's just first responders. And by this point, they're not paying any attention to us. This is a catastrophic circumstance. We're on the moonscape. There's dust and paper everywhere. And at that point, I think I was like, it's very hard to tell because it was hard to get a read. Everything was white. All the buildings were white.

The moonscape was white, powdery. So it was very hard to tell where you were. But I was probably within two to four blocks of the footprint of the North Tower when it came down. And I remember obviously hearing something because that would have made me look up. And I had to crane my neck all the way back. chin to the sky to see the top of the tower and saw it coming down. And this is where I processed everything in weird time because I could see it coming down and I had a thought, get the fuck out of here. It's coming down on you. And it must have been seconds, you know, as I start running,

that everything just kinds of hits from behind and everything went pitch black. And I was wearing a cardigan and I pulled it over my mouth and escaped the blackness by smashing. terrifying a window and getting into a vestibule of a window of a vestibule of a building nearby and then smashing it like banging open a second door to get even further in because the junk all followed us in. So yeah, so that and then I remember I had been dial, dial, dial, dial, dial, dial, dial, trying to get through because nobody could get through. And there was no service then. No, but then one went through.

And I remember Omnika, a girl who used to work on my show, MSNBC, she was on the desk and she picked up phone. I'm Nika speaking and I said, oh my God, I'm Nika, don't let this call drop. I'm using a very gentle tone right now, but I was crying and screaming like we're all dying, we're all going to die, don't let this phone call drop. This is the last I'll ever hear anybody's voice. Every building's coming down. And I was so scared at that point. And I was just terrified that that call was going to drop. And I didn't. And I just ended up reporting everything I'd seen. And World Trade Center security guards banging on this glass, wanting to come in now. And you're like, Oh, well, he couldn't tell it was World Trade Center Security Guard.

He just saw a figure. And the person I was with, like, it's like the lifeboat, the Titanic Lifeboat, if you pull them in, we're all going down, you know. But the one I was with said, don't open it. And I'm like, fuck that. We're going to open it and bring this guy in. And then there's another one behind him. And he was a NYPD officer. And so that was the last of it.

There was just four of us in that vestibule at that point, choking and spitting out the debris and everything in their eyes and nose and mouth. and waiting for the blackness to let up, you know. And then the blackness let up. And we four, you know, got out. And I started looking for crew and people and trying to coordinate. How can I get this stuff on television? And saw an NBC truck and banged on the side. And they said, we got a truck, but we don't have a camera.

And I saw a Fox News reporter with a camera with no truck. And I said, listen, it's the apocalypse. Let's not be competitive here. Like your camera, our truck, we go out to both, both networks. Their boss said, no, don't ask. I still will never understand that.

That's probably a very incredible decision for him. Yeah, I mean. You should have gotten fired over that. Well, so there was, okay, so that guy was clean, right? So he had not been, he had not been hit. He had come into it as a reporter. And I know, I know that they realized how bad it was,

but they didn't know how bad it was, right? So I'm thinking, this is the apocalypse. This is not a competition anymore. He's thinking, I'm here to do a news story for my network. And so I understand. And it wasn't, he didn't make the decision. It was their bosses. I think he was fully on board to do a joint report between the two of us.

Anyway, then we saw this German tourist who had a handy cam. And I'm like, I grabbed the engineer. I go, can you get that thing up, that little handy cam? If you got a cable that can get that up on the air. because I'll talk over my phone for audio. And that's what we did. The handy cam gets hooked up to the truck. And I'm on the flip phone.

And that was our first live report from the disaster area until we just kept getting pushed further and further all day long out, you know, further away from the danger zone. And at one point, I even had the tower five, seven, seven behind me. And it was coming down, you know. So we were not getting pushed far enough, quick enough, clearly. So obviously, you know, if people listening were old enough to remember that day, which I would imagine most people listening to this probably are, you remember where you were. So I was in college. And I remember walking this. I had a, the roommate that I had, I didn't know him. He was, I was kind of put together with him. He was a foreign exchange student from China. His English was okay. And so I come downstairs at that department dorm thing that we're in. And he's watching, he's watching. He's watching this happen live. And I, you know, it was after, I was on Eastern time too. So it was after, it was after 830, probably somewhere in there. And I'm like, what movie is this? Like, what are you watching? And he was like, this is not a movie. And, and, and I was in Georgia. I went to Georgia Southern University. And, um, the girl I was dating at the time, her dad was a colonel. And he basically said, said, he told her, told us, don't go anywhere. Stay right where we are because we're close to the Savannah Riversite, which is a nuclear facility. Nobody knows what's going on. I talked to my mom earlier.

She's in Atlanta. The highway signs are flashing America under attack, seek shelter. So, you know, that's kind of what we're experiencing there. And I remember sitting down there and just the emotions of this. And I wasn't there like you were. And I realized. But it was huge, wasn't it? It was huge. It was impactful. It was life-changing. I mean, all those things.

Everybody who had their story about what happened to them on 9-11 was big. Yeah. And you remember, like, I remember it very vividly, like coming down and sitting down. And like I said, I was in a jersey. You were trying to get up on the air. What was going through your mind other than get it through the air? Like, when all this was happening, how did you handle the emotional toll of what you were going through? you know, while you're trying to get it on the air.

Very little of that. After the initial terror of dying and an Omnika's phone call, like when I got through to Omnika and I just was like hyperventilating like a four-year-old, right? Once I got past that and realizing, okay, I'm not dying right now. I'm not dying. The building's not going to come down. I survived this. I can get out into the daylight now.

The daylight has come back. I can get out there. then it was really just a sprint to try to do the job, you know? At that point, it was just how do I do the job? How do I keep doing this job? Because this job is really, really important right now. Yeah. And I'm one of the only people who literally lived through this.

There was Ron and Sanaa, in my group of reporting colleagues, it was Ron and Sana who got, you know, he dived into a car and it got, you know, he got partially buried. So he withstood the debris jumping into a car. And then John Zito, who was my overseas warmate, my foxhole partner, you know, he got behind a scaffold. Like the scaffold was over him and then it enclosed him completely. So imagine he was being entombed. But there was the air pocket of him with the scaffold above him and he squeezed his way out.

So, you know, there were a couple of us who had this, this horror visited on us that we understood each other. very well. And we knew that this story had to be told, this experience, this, this ground zero had to be conveyed of what it was like to be in ground zero and what we were seeing and what we were experiencing. So that was just, it was just a sprint of work, work, work, work, work by that point. Well, that's a good way to keep your mind, not keep your mind off of it, but get power through power through it. Power through it. What you're feeling at that point. Eventually it catches up with you, you know. And by the way, over years, you know, like that's never going to leave you.

No, no. And weird things. Like I had a really bad time for 10 years, like spontaneous crying, you know, in the weirdest circumstances where I was super embarrassed and didn't quite know how to tell anybody, well, what's going on with me right now, you know, getting on an airplane and looking out the window and then spontaneously crying and not very, you know, mature and bravado. All the things you're supposed to be is to anchor and a journalist, you know. Well, trauma manifests differently. And you could, you know, at the end of the day, you can be, and look, I know that you're very tough, okay. I know that you're, that you're not some weak, whatever person, you know, doing all of this stuff. But, I mean, what you experienced firsthand, there is, let me tell you what, you crying are

being upset about it for 10, 20, 30 years. There's no weakness in that. It was a lot. It was a lot. And like I said, I didn't even realize that I was a crime victim probably until 15 years later. I never thought. I guess you don't think about it that way. No.

I do remember when I got to Pakistan nine days later, being confronted with the other side, right, the other philosophy, which is you guys do this to people all the time. Buildings fall down all over the world all the time and you never bat an eye. And we lose families and that was, but we lose families by the thousands all the time. Why are you whining about it, Ashley? You know, this is what I was confronted with when I got over there. And I look at them and I'd say, could you just look at my feet for a moment? Do you see how bloody they are? That was from nine days ago.

I was in the actual epicenter of it. Like, fuck off. I think that's the only time I felt like I was a should have been treated differently than just a political discussion. But apart from that. and that was more of a political throwback, toss back at them, then, hey, you know, ease up on me. I've had a bad day.

It wasn't, I didn't see myself as so much a crime victim as more a, you're blind to the person, read the room, you know, read the room. And the thing is, to their point, they're not wrong. We are responsible. They weren't. I mean, listen, you get all sorts of trouble if people were to cut that little piece of our podcast out and put it out there. There were all sorts of philosophies that they said to us that we,

that we'd never really had to listen to much before, right? But you're right. Lots of damage had been done to a lot of people all around the world that most Americans didn't really know about. But the key difference here, and by the way, we don't cut on this. This is, for the most part,

completely unedited unless we have a reason, like a reason like, oh, somebody's got to take a break or something like that. And then what? But other than that, you get to say this your way. But the difference, I think, was this, is that for Americans, at least, East, people who lived in this country, that was the first time there had been an attack on

American soil since 1941 with Pearl Harbor. And so we're all, I mean, and I guess there And that was military. And that was military. Like it was not an attack against civilians. And America likes to pride itself and saying that's not our, you know, our modus operandi typically is let's go take out 3,000 civilians. That'll get our message across. Typically we, you know, yeah, we kind of play by the rules of war. And there are big. exceptions to that, I understand. Yeah, and I agree with you. I mean, and I know there was like the World Trade Center bombing, you know, that was in the 70s or whatever, but, you know, there wasn't in 1999, the parking garage. Oh, it was 91, I thought it was a 70. Was there one 70s and 91, right?

I don't know, it was not one in the 70s. No, it was built in 70s, so I only know about the 991 then. Yeah, so the parking garage one. But even so there was nothing quite like this where you're like, hey, we aren't invincible. We aren't, you know, And look, and I'll say this too, you know, it doesn't matter. People can say what they want about George W. Bush, okay? You don't have to like his politics. You don't have to like him. But I'm going to talk about one specific moment.

Every time I saw that man, from the time he was reading the book when they told him to everything he did at Ground Zero, you felt the emotion in him with that. And I've got to give him credit. Like, I mean, there are times where he was visibly upset. So, you know, you talk about trying to be strong. This is the president of the United States. And he's visibly, you know, been crying or on the first. I was down there.

When you got up on the pile with the, I think it was a fire captain and took the bullhorn. I was there watching that. I was right there. And I remember thinking, ooh, this is an iconic moment. This one's going to play. This looks a little Iwo Jima like, you know. And it's so funny. Like, this is a really good example.

of legacy shifting, legacy morphing, right? There were so many people who hated him and so many people who we thought we were so bipartisan back then, right? We thought we were so divided. I could name you a hundred Uber super Democrats

who would love George Bush today. They know, they're such a, we had no idea what it was going to be like. But I do recall feeling like we had completely lost our miscence back then. And I remember posing that question to his senator. It was actually, was it Senator, um, Cornine, John, John Cornyn, Cornine, Cornyn, Cornyn, Cornyn, okay, Cornyn, sorry, New Jersey, John Corzine. I always think of Senator Cornyn from Texas and

then Corzine from New Jersey. Um, and I remember posing the question to him that way, because it sort of, I had this mid-sentence epiphany where I said, we are, we lost all our innocence. Like, we're never going to be the same again. We're never going to be the same again. And he agreed, yeah. Dammer. I want to, I want to ask you this. And then, and I don't want to, you know, stay on 9-11 forever because I know there's a lot of things that you've done that I still want to talk about. But I remember, so I was, I was 19 when the towers came down. Right. Yeah, 19. And the following year for my 20th birthday, so in April of 2002, I'm doing this 31-day European tour, okay, with a company called Kintiki. And so there's people all over the world,

including Canadians. At this point in time, the world is not very happy with America. And so I go, I actually, one of the Canadians that was on, I made friends with a, he's like, hey, can I just like have a Canadian pin for my backpack? Right. Just as we're walking around, like nobody's going to know, you know, like people can't tell, but I remember having a discussion with it because we had these long bus rides from country to country. We're on these coaches. And we were talking about 9-11 because, I mean, it was still so very fresh. I mean, this is April 2002. And he was like, as, you know, as a Canadian, and this is where I'm going to come to you because you've lived on both sides. You're from Canada, but you've lived

here now. He's like, when we saw those towers come down, we weren't like, oh, my God, the tower, the World Trade Center was hit. What's America going to do now? It was more like, Oh shit. The trade center was hit. What's America going to do now? And so I'm kind of curious, you know, where you were at with that, because you, you're from Canada. You know, you lived in Canada. You now live in the U.S. You're in New York. You live through this personally. You know, what were kind of your feelings on, on that? Well, I really became American, you know, and I became a citizen not long after that, but I certainly felt like this was my,

this was my hometown where I was living. It was attacked. These were my people. We all felt a kinship, right? We all felt such a kinship. You get in the elevator in New York, and normally people wouldn't talk to each other, but then after 9-11 they did, you know,

it was like being in the Midwest. I grew up in Winnipeg, which is like the Canadian Midwest, and you get into an elevator like, hey, how are you? It's cold one out there, huh? You know, like you have a conversation. You bet. Whoa, that's cold one today.

Mine is 40. But New York became a little bit like that, you know. And we became softer and sweeter. It didn't last that long. But Americans unified and I certainly became part of that cohesive unit after 9-11. And look, I've been here 30 years now. And I've been a citizen. I had American children.

I married an American husband. Then I married another American husband. So, yeah, I'm a pious American. I have a copy of the Constitution, and I hang bunting, and I have an American flag on my house that I replace regularly, so it doesn't get tattered. That's amazing. Well, the last thing I'll say on 9-11 is this,

and then we can go into another story that I believe is personal for you based on our past conversations. But how far we've come, minus the Islamophobia, from the people that we all were on 9-12. Well, so many silos of gradations and, you know, we're far worse than what we were, you know. I would tend to agree. Yeah. But we're so much smarter.

You know, we're so much more capable. I suppose that's just progress. Like, you know, we were far smarter and more capable after the printing press, you know. So generally progress has made us, you know, more capable. world leaders. Well, I just meant the camaraderie amongst American citizens. We were...

That's where we did. We were all united on 9-12, for the most part. Again, minus the Islamophobia. We were all united on 9-12, and we've strayed very far from that. Yeah, yeah, we're totally different, which was what I was alluding to

with the folks who... Yeah, that's why I brought that up. George Bush back. The George Bush haters, who couldn't stand them, would love to have them back because that's how far we've fallen, you know, as a schism-based society now, people just can't fathom what the other side is about

and have no interest in learning. And that's the tragedy of, that's the tragedy of who we are and where we're going and the inability to see that that is the downfall. That's why Afghanistan failed and continues to fail because they are a collection of very different cultures that can't stand one another.

That's why the Middle East, is such a mess because it's a collection of two very different sets of cultures that cannot stand each other or believe that they believe the things they do. And until that ends, we're destined for those same political patterns that the rest of the world had many years ahead of us to develop and then fail at. And we could be seeing it as a nice history book lying in front of us and we fail to notice. Yeah. Well, there's a few things I want to talk about. And I'm going to come back to your wartime stuff because that's also fascinating. I mean, honestly, we could probably have this

episode be four hours and it would still be incredibly fascinating. The one thing that you and I talked about in the past that I know, if I remember correctly, based on the story, was felt at least very personal to you. You were there covering Sandy Hook. And so obviously I want you talk about your experience there, but I also want to know kind of how did you protect your humanity in moments like that? Because that's, that's hard. So I was on the air. I was doing the 11 o'clock CNN show at the time, and I was on the air when it broke. So I broke the story on the, towards the end of the 11 o'clock show, I believe we were breaking that story. And then I remember getting off the air and saying, like, we got to go. I'm going to go from anchor to like reporter, get in a, get in a news van,

a CNN news van. Suddenly I was becoming a correspondent at CNN and drive up, you know, the Hudson River and get up to Sandy Hook. And in doing so, I was with a, you know, a photographer and I was sitting in the passenger seat and we were listening to 10-10 wins again. And that's when we learned 20, 20 victims. So we didn't know how many, but that's when we learned 20. And we just fell silent. And I started to cry right there in the passenger seat of the van. And then the next milestone was crossing. my town because I had to pass by my town to get to Newtown. And my two kids were in their elementary school in my town. And I wanted to stop and get them, you know, and I couldn't. And that was, that was very hard. It was driving right by the exit to my kids, you know. And then getting to Newtown, you know, boy, I'll tell you, all the feels, but watching six little white caskets being driven in six hearses down the center of town and everybody just stopping and watching these little tiny caskets. Only six of them for some reason. I guess it was just the first six or group of six, whatever it was.

That was a pretty painful moment. And I would never have imagined being there, you know, that sometime down the road somebody would tell me it didn't happen. Somebody would dare to say that this was all a big. hoax. Right. Right. It's actors. Slap in the face to my mental trauma of living through it. And to every parent, to every parent

and every student that lived it. Yeah. Yeah. And physically, physically being there. Like physically being there, you sons of bitches, that I get angry and nasty. Children dying, it's worth being, for no good reason, it's worth being angry. And trying to tell me, I don't, what, I don't, I don't,

I didn't see it. Really? You think there were people there like me who saw this stuff? Yeah, it gets pretty, I get pretty irate at that stuff. I do too. You know, we have mutual friends. And I remember this happening to. Apparently, you know, Gabby Petito was in a Sandy Hook music video at one point.

I don't know if you, did you not know that? No. It just was a, it's a complete coincidence. But yeah, she was in like the Sandy Hook music video. And so that became, you know, seriously, you can, yeah, you can look it up. But I would look it up real quick for you. Maybe I will next time you're kind of talking about something. But basically, that became a conspiracy theory that Gabby's not really dead and that this was all, you know,

and it's like this, they're crisis actors. And it is so disgusting because, you know, number one, again, you have a bunch of, I mean, these are little kids. Sandy Hook was little kids, babies. I have a six-year-old. Yeah, I have a six-year-old. year old. And it's, it's, I don't know what I would do. I don't do. I, and I, and I don't think it's something that I could survive personally. Maybe I'm more resilient than I think. But I don't

think I'd want to, frankly. Right. But, you know, when people say stuff like that, when they downplay these school shootings, whether it's, you know, for the kids who died, the kids that had to experience it and survive. the families, everybody in the community, and to just kind of like brush it off as being nothing, it's disgusting. You know, for all the people who have families involved with this,

and I used to tell people when everything was going on with Gabby, people would always have me, you know, every time there's a true crime event, there's always people that have to have their conspiracy theories that go with it. And Joe would often come into my lives, and I would be like, look, and I would tell people flat out,

I'd be like, look, Joe Petito comes in, these lives a lot, do you really want to be talking shit about his daughter when he walks in, when he comes in here? Like, do you, does that really the person that you want to be? People forget. These are, these are real, these are real lives, real emotions, real people who are in the worst situation that you could ever construct. You couldn't even imagine a situation. You couldn't, you couldn't even write the script for something this awful. And people forget that that's what's behind a lot of these true crime stories. So there is a tenderness that needs to be injected into a lot of what we do and a lot of care and consideration for those who are

struggling through a club they didn't want to join ever. You know, and that's one thing. And I'll say this about you that I absolutely love and I love working with you and, you know, ever coming when I came on your show and stuff, is that despite four decades in this business, you can tell that you genuinely care, that you genuinely give a shit, and that you, despite everything that you've seen, everything that you've lived through, the horror, you have not let it get you to a point where you brush it off or you're jaded by it.

You still are empathetic to all the people, and I absolutely really respect and admire that. I'll tell you what, I remember whenever there's a big story and the media sort of descends upon it, and there's like a media village and all the rest like that. what you find a lot of times is a lot of people come together who haven't seen each other in a long time or they're meeting other people at other networks and it's kind of awkward and fun and titillating and it's like ooh there's so and so and so and so and such and such and such a network and oh there's their tent and so people behave in kind of inappropriate ways and maybe not because they intended to but they almost get a little giddy and they high five and say hi-five and say hi-five and they joke and they you know and they sometimes forget to read the room. And I remember that happening at Sandy Hook. I remember people laughing out loud and saying, hey, so-and-so, how's it going?

I haven't seen you in ages. What's up? You know, and it was right in the middle of town where everybody could see this. And I remember walking out. It's not a good look. It's not a good look. And I remember walking up and saying, hey, guys, it's just a really bad time right now. Rather than like, stop it, you know.

I just remember saying it's a bad time right now. it's it's it's a really like it's a really really bad time you know and everything sort of calmed down a little bit but I do remember thinking like gosh sometimes reporters just forget it's not just a job you're walking into other people's worlds so respect those worlds and you know dance gently and I feel the same way but even it's I think it's even worse with content creators and I know that I am one but I think that it's even worse because there aren't any rules for the most part when it comes to that. And so I think that that's, you know, it's troubling. So there are some good ones out there, you know, like everyone else. There's some good ones. There's some bad ones. Yeah. And, you know,

at CrimeCon, you do see a lot of good. You see a lot of people who care a lot about victims and you see, you know, people who come to CrimeCon and they come because they care about victims, you know, they care about being supportive and let's let's help, you know, crack these cold cases and let's help find these missing kids. And so there's some real good among the true crime community. I will say that. No, I think there's a lot of people who are doing it for the right reason. You know, and that's good. And the thing about it that I've noticed, too, is the people who are in it for the wrong reasons, from a content creation standpoint, they don't grow. Yeah. You know, they'll get their followers. They'll get maybe 100,000, a couple hundred thousand, and then that's where they stay. Yeah.

So, and they don't go bigger because people don't want that. And I, And I feel like there's a bit of a shift going on with that. Like people don't want this sensationalized, you know, over the top, you know, crime drama. Because for the most part, most of these stories, they don't need to be sensationalized. They're already horrific or sensational, quote unquote, as they are. And then I get frustrated. And I'm going to go on this tangent real quick because I'm very frustrated about this. but it's like, and I know TMZ is TMZ, they do what they do,

but like everything that's been coming out recently about like the Idaho murders and like all these crime scene photos, like there's, like what good does that do? For the victim, you're retramatizing the families. Yeah. You know, I don't, I won't even, I won't even look at them. I won't talk about them. He's in prison where he belongs. And that's it.

Anything else that comes out needs to be about the victims and the families. It's true. The only thing I could say about that, because I don't, I have toiled over how to cover that and haven't covered it yet. I am planning to cover it because there is something that's important without showing the photos. There is something important to discuss about the photos. And that is we are still baffled by why the prosecution felt like it needed to offer a deal. I think a lot of us think, okay, come on.

This wasn't going to be, this was a bit of a layup. Yeah. So why. Especially is what we know now. with what we know now. And we're learning more. With every photo, we learn more. And that's the point of the journalism is like sometimes journalism is hard and you don't want to hurt the families.

And I, you know, I understand Steve Gonzalez and his family were just so devastated with these photos. And I get it. I get it. There was a way to cover it, though, I believe, without showing it. But talking about significance of certain things where it's like, hold it. Hold it. The aggravators are just starting to really come into focus. Like the myriad aggregators, right?

And also just the pattern. Like we still don't know why. We still don't know motive. And I feel like we all feel cheated because we are all part of the flock. We are all afraid. We all want to be able to identify those among us who are capable of this and maybe protect ourselves and our kids. So these are stories that we feel like we deserve to know about.

We're paying the salaries of those who are protecting us and jailing the bad ones and keeping the bad ones at bay. And so we all have a state. in the justice system. And so for that reason, seeing pictures come out and seeing some of the evidence in them is helpful just in completing

a very incomplete story. But I can see the sensitivities that are needed and showing the pictures doesn't help. Well, showing pictures to journalists, to make the determination is one thing versus doing a dump of them to everybody.

Yeah, and I don't think that they were edited properly from what I understand. I've seen it, but I've- With the ones that I've seen, they're not. I've seen, because you know, you can't help because TMZ likes to put them right on, right on there. So I've seen a couple of them on accident. But I won't even refer to him by name anymore. I just refer to, like, I have his inmate number memorized now. I just call him an inmate 163-214.

Like, that's just what I refer to him. Yeah. It's good. Yeah. I don't follow your lead there. I think that's a good idea. Well, I feel like it's even like with the school shooters. I refer to them as the shooter.

I don't even give them, I mean, no day of them as a pronoun, but I only call them for the most part. I don't even say him or her. I just say they, the shooter. Yeah. You know, I keep the very whatever. Tell you what, so many of them now, we can't remember them.

That's also quite a statement. You know, I remember covering a school shooting out on the West Coast. I cannot tell, Rose, I was there, and I can't remember it. You know, like how bad does it have to be where I physically was at a college campus shooting and can't remember the town. It was in Washington State. Can't remember the town. It was Rose something.

Can't remember that I think it was 16 kids. Can't remember the shooter. There's so many of them though. Yeah, but you see what I mean? Like we're at a point now where it's like even if we named them, it's impossible to remember them, you know? Yeah. Somebody asked me, they message me actually not too long ago.

They're like, hey, you know, I remember talking during the shooting? and I'm like which one, you know, and I hate it. You know, what's sad too is, you know, I don't know. You know, these episodes are the most part of Evergreen, but so I don't know when this one's going to air, but, you know, I did an interview with Daryl Scott, who for people who don't know, I'm sure you know who that is, but for people who don't know, it's Rachel Scott's father. Rachel was the first victim of Columbine. And when my manager for this show was like, well, hey, when do you want to play that episode?

I said, and this is what I said to him. I was like whenever there's the next school shooting. Yeah. And he just kind of got really quiet on me. And he was like, like, I hate that you said that, but I know you're right. Right. And ultimately, though, I decided, though, I was like, you know what, let's do it on 420 because that falls on a day of release. And that's the anniversary.

Right. So let's do it. So much. But, you know, but I was like, you know, we're going to have one. Huh? As a 420 is an anniversary for so many. terrible things. Yeah, for sure. I mean, it's, well, it's because of the day, you know, it's, it's, I think there's a lot of, I will say bad, bad mojo, juju, whatever you want to call it. That's also Hitler's

birthday. Yeah. So I think that there's a lot of evil people like to do things on that date because of that. I know that was part of the reason for the Columbine kids. Right, right. Yeah. And it wasn't 420 also, was also I was trying to remember it was like two other things the Murrah building that was 420 right federal building in Oklahoma City

yeah Oklahoma City bombing was and was Ruby Ridge also that day I don't remember maybe I think they were avenging Ruby Ridge maybe but yeah there's a lot of things that that day is chosen for you know for for all the wrong reasons.

So, you know, even with them, I try not to speak. You know, and I remember their names vividly because I was still in high school when Columbine happened. So I remember very vividly. And sitting down with Darrell was very like, it was, it was a difficult, it was, I'm humbled by it, of course, but it was, it was very surreal to me because I remember being glued. Because I, you know, I grew up in a town that was, you know, a fairly affluent town. And it was, you know, a school similar to Columbine High School.

town similar to Littleton. And I'm like, this doesn't happen. Like, it had not happened, really, prior to that. It was the first big one. It was the granddaddy that set the template for us reporting, you know. A little that we know back then how polarized we'd be as a nation and how many school shootings there'd be just like all mine. And that we continue to do absolutely nothing to stop it.

I know. But that's a tragedy. But I digress. another story that you and I have not talked about before because I don't think I realize you had covered it but I did my little research before having you on I you covered the Casey Anthony trial right oh yeah so they're all through it for jury selection and then when they moved the jurors they decided they had to move them and all through the trial oh god I was working my buns up that was that very short period of time when I was at ABC and they were

working towards that afternoon show and then everybody got fired. All the executives got fired from ABC and then the afternoon show disappeared. And so I walked around and I went down to the Good Morning America office and I said, hey, look, I'm sitting here on the ninth floor and I'm a free body if you want to throw me in the mix. And I've got some pretty good reporting skills on true crime. And so they threw me into the Casey Anthony story and I did the whole thing to start to finish. So there was a bit of a I don't know, a media circus, if you will, surrounding Casey Anthony. Do you, how do you think that, do you think that that had any impact on the case? No, I really don't.

Not ultimately the verdict, that's for sure. If you think that the media circus affected the case, she'd be guilty. Fair enough. Yeah, that jury was actually pretty astute. They listened to everything. They were asked by the prosecutors to do something crazy. You know, the prosecutors were making them leap over this giant Grand Canyon of missing evidence. And they sort of prosecutors drew this whole picture of Casey maniacally murdering her kids, suffocating her and putting tape over.

And it's like, where are you getting that? That's a lot to ask somebody with no evidence to support that at all. just there's tape on the mouth of the kids so let's let's get the jury envisioning her doing it and like waiting till the air stops and and i just sort of remember thinking no hang on a minute you could have got them to you could have got them over a lot of smaller leaps than that that that one was ridiculous and of course that's exactly what they said they said after the verdict look we know she's guilty of something but no prosecutors were asking us we I and one of of them said to me famously, the way I look at Casey Anthony is she was walking down the street

towards me, I'd cross the street. That's what they say. They hated her. They hated her. They knew she was a terrible person. But the prosecutors were, they had such ego. To this day, they're the most egotistical prosecutors I've ever come across in a million different ways, in their theory, how rude they were to the press, what they did in the courtroom, how they assume the jurors are just going to, you're just going to have to believe this, okay? I got you on this one. But what's been interesting is lately, and I don't know if you've seen this,

she has inherently trying to be a child advocate. I know. That's rich. The irony there. Starts at home, honey. Yeah, I'm not going to, I don't think I'm going to take advocacy advice from Casey Anthony. I will post about it because it's just so tone deaf.

Yeah. But Casey believes that she's not, I think Casey believes that she's what the jury said. right the the other thing that i want because i learned about this today and then after this one i think i want to get into your your war stuff i mean again i could have you on here forever you you have led you have such an interesting career that you have led over the last few decades got a lot of lives a lot of lives you've done a lot of things you've been in a lot of situations that a lot of people don't come back from yet yet you manage to each time with gusto and it's it's really quite amazing

i love i always love talking because i always learn you always have something new that we we find out. But so this podcast, uh, at launch, we, we, the first episode, I think I told you was with Elizabeth Smart and you were there, uh, covering her as well the entire time. And I don't think I knew that until today, actually. Five weeks. I spent five weeks out in Salt Lake City. Got very accustomed to the town and the hotel and the smart family in their house. And yeah, I was, uh, I was out there. Even the searchers. I was out with search parties too. It was a busy, busy time. Well, when you, and you have the gift of hindsight now because, you know, it's been, you know, 20-something years, when you think back on that case, when you were covering it, when

you were there for those five weeks, what stands out to you now years later? The interview I had with Ed and Lois, I mean, look, it seemed preposterous that some boogeyman came into the house and stole Elizabeth out of her bed right beside Mary Catherine, right? Like, there's two of them in bed together. Boogie man doesn't just come in. take one away. All of it was preposterous. And so as is the case with so many children who go missing, you do have to look inside the home. That's just sadly, that's just the reality of the statistics. And so I felt terrible for Ed and Lois smart because I wanted to believe they were such kind people, you know, and they were so wholesome. The family was so wholesome, everything about

them. But we all know that just because people are wholesome on the outside doesn't mean that what's going on inside a house is wholesome. And so you had to keep an open mind. And that was very hard. It was hard to keep an open mind that maybe they had something to do with it. So the interview that I sat down and did with them was just so uncomfortable because I had to ask them everything, right? How's the search? How are you holding up? Now, what about these latest reports about the police saying they're now interviewing you and lie detector. That was hard. It was very, very uncomfortable being face to face with them and having to ask those tough questions. I think that was the toughest part other than the fact that Elizabeth was missing. And when did you have did you have

any sort of indication or inclination nine months later that she was going to be found? Did you think that she was just gone forever? I think I remember it happening. I didn't think she'd be found. Yeah, I mean, five weeks later, you know, I came back to New York. And I remember on the flight back thinking, I don't know that I'll be back in Salt Lake. Like, after five weeks, there's no sign of her. How many times can we do the same story every night without anything to advance? You know, like that's the hardest part of missing cases is that eventually you can't really report them anymore. Because there's no updates. And it's no updates. And it's, it's just the same. And, you know, it's just a really sad, sad reality. And I remember thinking that about, uh, about Elizabeth. Yeah, that that was probably the last time I'd be out there to see them. And I don't think we'll see Elizabeth again. So nine months later, you could have knocked me over with a feather. I mean, wow. Did you go back out? Headline. Oh yeah. Oh, God. Yeah. So yeah. She's yeah. And Elizabeth is is, is, is great. I know you've

done stuff with her too. She's amazing. She really, how she does it, I will never know, you know, talk about trauma. None of us will ever live trauma that, you know, anywhere close to what Elizabeth went through. And how she was able to turn that into helping others. I mean, all she does is want others to, to benefit. Yeah, her advocacy is impressive. Her composure is impressed for everything that she's gone through. She really is quite a remarkable woman. She She really is. Astounding. I don't even think that those words describe her well enough.

I mean, for anybody listening, if you've not heard that episode or you've not, like, you know, she's got books out. Just go support and read. It's really quite, really incredible, you know, who she is and everything that she's done. Just amazing. And I always like, you know, obviously people don't choose to have trauma thrust upon them, right? Like she would have never chosen to have her child. childhood stolen from her.

You know, we talked about the Petito family earlier. They would have never chosen to have, you know, Gabby stolen from them. You know, and you look at, and I'm using those two examples because I look at what they did afterwards, you know, with Elizabeth, with the Elizabeth Smart Foundation, with Gabby's family with the Gabby Petito Foundation, to literally work to change the laws

the way the domestic violence is handled, what Elizabeth's doing to help bring awareness, you know, and help to abuse victims. It's one thing to be somebody who was a victim, or a family member, a victim, a survivor. It's another thing to take that and then put that energy. Choose to re-traumatize yourself daily to help others. And I just, the amount of strength that that takes.

Yeah. Yeah, it's kind of mind-blowing. I mean, I think about, you know, my little experience and how much PTSD I have from it. And it's like, I can't even imagine living in the 9-11 world and working with that every day. I couldn't put myself into that circumstance every day. And I think Elizabeth does. And it's just incredible. And it's all just magnanimous and loving and giving and supportive.

And all she does is for other people because I don't think it benefits her. You know, I think she's for the benefit of others. At this point, at this point, I don't think there's any healing journey. I mean, we talked about her healing journey. And I know that it's still, you know, she still has her moments and things like that as she probably always will. But I think at this point, it really is more about helping others than trying to, you know, heal. Like, she's still going to be on that journey, but I think it's more about helping others than herself. Yeah.

I truly do. So, yeah, anybody wants to support that that's a great, it's a great person and organization, as is the Gabri Vitto Foundation for that matter. Absolutely. Okay. So the last thing that I want to talk about tonight with you is your war coverage, because I've heard these stories from you before. and they're fascinating. And I just think that people kind of,

I mean, you were literally in the trenches and the foxholes. You were there. So crazy places, I'll tell you. Like nuts. Now, the most bizarre place was Afghanistan. I mean, that was like being, that was like being beamed into the set of the Flintstones.

That's really what it looked like. Everything just looked like a bunch of piles of rubble everywhere. and somehow people were living in them. And it was, you know, right around Christmas time, it was cold in December. And I just remember thinking, how does anybody function in this society? There wasn't even copper telephone wires.

Like, that's one of the first things in a war zone to go, right? They strip the copper telephone wires. They sell it. And so now there's no communications. We had no comms. You know, people in Kabul had no comms. Everything was just, I don't know, everything was just tribal.

and warlords, you know, ruled certain streets. And I just remember thinking like, how the hell do you raise kids in this? And they did, you know, and they were the heartiest people and not in a good way. They hit their children forcefully in public, you know, as a matter of just sort of almost as if we'd say, excuse me, they would hit. They'd just beat kids out of the way. Or if kids came up too close to them, they would just strike out. and hit them in the face. I just remember thinking this is such a cruel place right from the minute you're a kid. Everything here is mean and harsh. And, you know, everybody had marks all over

them because that's sort of like living in the wilderness, you know. And I think, you know, that for that reason they became very, very hearty Mujahideem. These soldiers, you couldn't hurt them. You couldn't even scare them, you know. They weren't afraid to die. They weren't afraid of the cold. They weren't afraid of being beaten up or losing a limb or, I mean, they just, they just seemed so rugged as people. There was a story I think you told me in the past. I don't remember the details of it, but, and we could maybe close on that one if you want, but didn't you go into, there was like a meeting that you went into, right? I can't know where it was like, but I mean, I'm sure there was, but there was like a meeting, I forget, I cannot remember the details of it. But it was a situation where, huh?

of the religious leaders and I had to like I had to like interview him on my knees. Well, I don't have that I haven't heard that one, but I thought it was like a full of a bio. I sure if you were coming out alive of of that one. Well, there was there was one of those in in Gaza. That was pretty bad. The one that I in Gaza, I didn't think I was going to come out of that alive. But the ones in Afghanistan, in retrospect, I should have thought that I wasn't coming out

alive, but still did anyway. But one of the weirder things that I witnessed was in Jalalabad, which was basically where, you know, bin Laden's last stand was before he disappeared into the White Mountains and then eventually, you know, ended up in Pakistan. They had like a farmhouse, like a barn filled with men, like prisoners. And they were, they all looked like Mujahideen. They all were dressed the same, but they were from all over the world. They were Al-Qaeda. And, you know, the tribes had decided to turn on one another and arrest these people, I think probably for bounty for the Americans. Whatever it was, it was hard to get a read on why are all these men locked up in here.

And they were all from different areas. Like tons of them are from Saudi Arabia, from Jordan, you know, all these different Islamic, you know, populated countries around the world. They had all come to fight. They had all come to join al-Qaeda. Wow. And so I guess maybe some of the local. tribal leaders didn't want bin Laden there causing all these problems and we're willing to turn in these, these al-Qaeda fighters. And I would walk up to them and some of them would hide

their faces and other ones would be, I say, where are you from? Jordan. Like, Jordan, what are you doing here? And they go, vacation. Vacation. During a war. Sure. Yeah, vacation. Yeah. In December. White Mountains. So cold and awful. So they all said, they had a line, they all learned it. Vacation.

Oh, vacation. Vacation. I don't know what happened to those men. I don't think they survived. I don't know. Those men survived. I don't know what happened to them.

But they probably ended up Guantanamo. I don't know. Maybe still there. Maybe. Well, I know, and I appreciate you taking so much time. I know I've taken a lot of you tonight,

and I appreciate it. But I do want to make sure, too, that you take the opportunity to plug. your podcast because your podcast is pretty pretty incredible so and where people can find it of course we'll put links in the show notes thank you it's drop dead serious and it is it's blast and now i'm dedicating myself to it full time um this is my entire day i i now give towards building the content and drop dead serious and so uh yeah check it out so glad and for people who are listening

if you can tell we just like barely touched the surface of things that she's covered so you can only imagine how interesting her own show would be. So definitely check it out. Well, Ashley, thank you so much for joining. And, you know, as always, it's a pleasure. Thank you. I so appreciate I love talking to you. Me too. All right. The views and opinions expressed in this episode are solely those of the individual speaking and do not necessarily reflect those of the host. Unheard is intended to provide a platform for personal stories and lived experiences, not to establish facts, determine guilt, innocence, or provide legal, medical, or professional advice. Listeners are encouraged to conduct their own research and form their own conclusions. Thank you for listening to

Unheard.