Unheard: True Crime in Their Own Words - Elizabeth Smart: The Part of Her Story Most People Miss

Episode Date: January 26, 2026

In this deeply moving episode of Unheard, survivor and advocate Elizabeth Smart shares her experience of surviving kidnapping and navigating the long, complex journey of healing after trauma. Elizabeth opens up about how the legal system can retraumatize survivors, why forgiveness is deeply personal, and what recovery really looks like beyond the headlines.This conversation explores trauma recovery, victim advocacy, consent education, body autonomy, and the critical role of family and support systems. Elizabeth also discusses grief, faith, public scrutiny, and how sharing survivor stories can create awareness, understanding, and change.Trigger Warning: This episode discusses trauma, abuse, and recovery.Topics include:trauma recovery, sexual assault survivors, victim advocacy, forgiveness and healing, consent education, legal system challenges, post-traumatic growth, survivor stories, mental health03:02 – Trauma and the Legal System05:53 – Faith, Trauma, and Complexity09:04 – What Forgiveness Really Means11:56 – Turning Trauma Into Advocacy15:02 – Why Justice Often Fails Survivors18:08 – Understanding Victimhood20:47 – Language, Consent, and Body Autonomy23:54 – Living Beyond Survival26:58 – Why Healing Is Not Linear29:53 – The Power of Support Systems33:14 – Strength and Resilience After Trauma36:03 – Setbacks in Recovery38:48 – Unfairness After Rescue42:23 – Centering Victims, Not Headlines43:56 – Family’s Role in Healing45:00 – Life After Trauma46:10 – Being a Public Figure After Trauma47:15 – Returning to “Normal”51:41 – What the Public Doesn’t See01:01:45 – The Reality of Long-Term Healing01:03:30 – Advice for Parents and Educators01:05:05 – Finding Hope and Joy01:06:03 – Elizabeth Smart’s Work and WritingSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

I wish people would stop saying things like, well, why didn't you run? Why didn't you do this? Why didn't you do that? Basically, any question that starts with the words, why didn't you? I hated it when people would ask me those questions because I felt like I was being blamed for not doing more. But what they didn't see was, you know, the threats happening behind the scenes. They didn't see, they didn't experience. They weren't there for the abuse. I mean, for whatever happened to you, like, you will never get that made up to you. Like, there's nothing that can give you back what was taken from you. Welcome to Unheard, true crime in their own words. Before we begin, I want to tell you why this show exists.

Unheard was created for the parts of the stories that are usually edited out. The moments that don't fit into headlines, the voices that are often spoken about, but not actually listened to. There is no better way to begin this series than with Elizabeth Smart. You know her name. you know the moment she was rescued. What you may not know or fully understand is everything that came after. The silence, the misconceptions, and the expectation that survival means the story is over. Elizabeth was just 14 years old when she was kidnapped from her bedroom and held captive for nine months.

Her survival became a national story, but survival didn't mean healing was immediate or simple or complete. And for many survivors, that's where the real work begins. In this premiere episode of unheard, true crime in their own words, Elizabeth speaks openly about what survival actually looks like, why she continues to share her story decades later, what people still get wrong about trauma, and even parts of her story that both people have never even heard. This conversation isn't about shock or spectacle. It's about truth, understanding, and giving space to a voice that has too often been reduced to a moment in time. Unheard is not here to steer stories or sanitize them. There is no agenda. There are no soundbites, just people speaking

in their own words. But for warning, this episode contains discussions of kidnapping and sexual assault. Please take care while listening. This is unheard and this is Elizabeth Smart. I want to talk about the things that you think still aren't really understood about your story. I mean, like any time I've done anything, you know, I was I was held captive for nine months. You couldn't possibly squish everything that happened for nine months into, you know, a 90-minute documentary an hour long documentary. I mean, this was the better part of a year of my life. Plus, I mean, I don't feel like my story really stopped once I was rescued

because then there was the whole legal system that I went through, that that was a roller coaster. And, I mean, literally, yes, a trial, but also like a trial for me as well. And so that typically doesn't get covered or talked about. in my story. Well, let's talk about that because I think that's one thing that I like to talk about and bring up is the fact that, because you were a child when all of this went down.

And you're not having to go to court, you know, confront your accusers, which in my personal opinion, I kind of feel like there's probably a better way out there to do that than make children have to continually be retramatized about what happened to them. If you want to talk to the people about kind of what that experience was like for you, And the stuff that you're, like you said, you weren't able to really talk about that part that gets left out. I mean, the whole legal process was very frustrating because almost immediately after I was rescued, I was brought to a children's advocacy center, which I just want to say, I think they are incredible places. I think they do such important, needed work.

I'm like so grateful for so many of these centers that have really streamlined it. So it's, you know, you don't have to go to the police. You don't have to then go to a forensic interview or you don't have to go to the hospital. Like it's just kind of somewhere you can go in one place and hopefully, you know, they're all really highly trained and very sensitive and trauma informed and, you know, make it as easy as possible, not that it is ever easy. But for me, I was brought to the Children's Justice Center in Salt Lake. and I didn't really know what was going on. I was just told that if I would go in and speak to these two psychiatrists, that they could stand as proxy for me during the trial.

And, you know, I had just been held captive by a middle-aged man for nine months. And then I, and honestly, at that point in my life, I was scared of, of men. I didn't feel comfortable around men. And I was left alone in the room with these two men who were asking me really detailed questions about what happened. And I hadn't been raised to use the terminology like penis, vagina. I mean, it was always, they're your privates. They're your privates. And so having to be able to describe what happened to me using very, well, Anna talks, correct body parts and in great detail was very, very uncomfortable for me. And also, these two men were very clearly religious. And, you know, I had been, the guys that they had

kidnapped me under was religion. And so all of it just created this experience that felt terrible and because they were psychiatrists um that immediately just made me feel like i don't ever want to talk to another psychiatrist i don't ever want to talk to another therapist ever again so were they were they basically religious because there are some psychologists that are religious based is that kind of what they were they were not religious based they just had very clear clothing on that they were that they were religious gotcha that's a another thing that I think is probably an important topic that you bring up, as you said, you're sitting in this room with two men after the ordeal that you went through.

And I would imagine, you know, without having to put words in other people's mouths, but I would imagine that most girls, women, who have to go through something like what you went through, probably do have a little, we'll say apprehension at the least of being around other men. And I kind of feel like that's one of those things that we can talk about that, perhaps they should consider putting females with females in those sorts of situations. I think that is the best practices now. One second. You're good.

Why don't you go back outside and tell them. Well, why don't you go downstairs and play then? I know, but you're making some noise right now, okay? Can you do that downstairs? Okay, thank you. You're good. Okay. Right. So you're saying that was best practices.

I do believe that is a best practices now. That it typically is a female with a female and even females with a lot of boys that come in as well just because I think the feeling, not always, but the feeling typically is that females are less threatening than males. Yeah, I think that that's most people can agree with that statement. Now, you mentioned that these two people that were doing your interview were clearly very religious. You know, you're in Utah. Obviously, there's a lot of religion in Utah with the Mormon church. When we talk about faith, how has yours actually changed over time? Because you came from a religious family too, correct?

Yes. Yes. So how did your faith with them using God as the reason for taking you and holding you, How did that, how has that changed over the years? I mean, initially it was such a comfort to me and especially while I was held captive because it was so much more comforting to think that there was like an all-powerful God who loved me, who was aware of me, that I wasn't completely isolated alone with these two monsters. That was a very comforting thought to me while I was in captivity.

As I've gotten older and I've seen other stories come to light that echo my own, it makes me very wary of people who take religion too far, or anytime anyone says to me, God told me to tell you this, or I feel inspired to tell you this. I'm not saying it's not true. It just makes me very wary to just believe whatever they say. And I would say that even that even goes so far as any belief today. I just, just because someone tells me it, no matter if they're respected in the community or not,

I no longer can just take people's word for whatever they're trying to tell me or belief that they're trying to impart with me. Did you ever have any moments, you know, either back then or even moving forward on your healing journey, where faith complicated things more so than comforted. Certainly. You know, my captors, we are taught so much about forgiveness and that we should, you know, we should all forgive. I think that there's that saying forgive and forget.

And part of me is just like, are you nuts? Like, forgive and forget? Like, I am never going to invite my captors over to my house for Sunday dinner. Like, that's never going to happen. I'm never going to forget about the nine. months that were stolen from me. I'm never going to forget what they did to me. Can I forgive them? Yes, but also I don't think forgiveness is just like, like, I feel like the best way for me to describe is the playground definition of forgiveness where, you know, one kid pushes another.

And then, you know, your teacher comes and intervenes or the principal sits down with you or your parents like, come and have a chat with you. And they're like, okay, you need to say sorry. And you're not going to do it again and then everything's all better. I think that's completely wrong, actually. I feel like forgiveness is really more about self-love. It's about loving yourself enough to not let your past destroy your future. That's what I feel like forgiveness is. I think that that's really eloquently put and I agree forgiveness is really more for you than the other person. Because I'll never let my captors back into my life. I would never, ever, ever let them around my children. And I think it would be hard to forgive. And you know what? If that's the case and that's,

you know, that's obviously a personal journey. And I think that it's okay if you don't, despite what we're taught. Because some things just some things are unforgivable. Well, and I mean, again, I just think forgiveness is, is for yourself. It's not, it's not for them because my captors don't care how I feel about them. Like they don't, I don't think they feel like guilt over what they did or what is the right word. It's not sorrow, but because I can't think of the right word at this remorse. I don't think they feel remorse over what they did. I think they'd do it again if they could.

And so my forgiveness for them does not affect them whatsoever, but it does affect me. And, you know, the day after I was rescued, my mom's, she said, you know, these people have stolen nine months that you'll never get back, but the best punishment you could ever give them is happiness, is to live a good life, do all the things you want to do. And initially, like, I was like, well, I had so much, you know, FOMO that I was like, I'm not going to, like, I want to do everything. I want to do everything I felt that was taken from me. And then, of course, as time went on, I was like, are you trying to say, like, I just brushed what I experienced under the rug and, like, pretend like it never happened. But now that I've had, you know, 20 plus years to think on that advice,

I don't think she meant that. I think she just said, make sure you always work towards your own happiness because being angry, being upset about what happened, like, carrying that around with you all the time. Like, it does ruin your life. And honestly, like, I only have one shot at life. And I don't want to carry that around every single day. I don't want to think about the past so much that it stops me from getting out of bed or stops me from going outside and playing. with my kids or even having the courage to let my kids go to school because of fear of what can happen to them. So I think in that sense, my mom was right. The best punishment I can give them is to live a good life. And let's expand on that because one of the reasons I wanted to have you on and talk to you is because you took an experience that was absolutely horrific and you have

channeled that into, you know, advocacy and helping others. You've written three books. And I will admit, I have your book. Where is it? Right here. Okay, I want to show it. I did not get a chance to read it because it came like right after Christmas and it's the holidays and, you know, I have a kid and all that kind of stuff. So I will read it, I promise. But, but, but you've written three books. So you've taken your experience, what you've gone through. And instead of making it define you, you haven't really let it define. you, but you've defined it. I mean, we don't really have control over what happens to us. I mean, I couldn't stop, you know, my kidnapping from happening to me.

We can't stop sickness from happening to us. There's a lot of, there's so many things in life that we do not have control over. But the one thing that we do have control over is how we respond. And initially when I got home, I was so, um, adamant that I wasn't going to talk about what happened. I didn't want anyone to know what happened. I was very embarrassed. I was, I just, I just wanted to pretend like it never existed. But when we finally did get to trial and I did have to testify about what happened, I just remember thinking, this is sounding like a bullet point list. And my life is more than a bullet point list. And if all of

this information is going to be out there that I never want to be. wanted to share in the first place, then it needs to be more than just the trial. It needs to be more than just curiosity or, you know, someone just being like, I want to know what happened. I'm going to look up the court transcripts and see what was said or I'm just following the news to know what happened. It needed to serve a bigger purpose than that. And so that kind of led me into advocacy. Plus, my dad has always been like life is about serving your fellow man. You know, if someone loans you something, you need to leave it better than you found it. And really, that's how life should be. The world should be a better place for having you in it than not.

And so just kind of, I don't know, holding on to those beliefs, trying to carry on with that. I feel like that's kind of what led me into advocacy and sharing my story on a much broader scope than I ever imagined I would. Well, I like the way your dad looks at life. And I agree with that 100%. Because I kind of feel the same way as try to leave the world a better place than, you know, then they found it. So you've been, how long have you been in, like, when did you start, I guess, formally

being in advocacy? I'm sure that you, you know, talked about things and then, you know, at one point and then finally got around to like, hey, this is going to be something that I do full time or I do, you know, as part of this journey. How long have you been doing that at this point? So, I mean, I did a little bit before the trial. I was involved with some other survivors of kidnapping where we got together and we wrote basically a survivor's guide to kidnapping and kind of the aftermath and how you move forward. We did that with the Department of Justice. So that happened before the trial. I mean, there were little things before then, but it really was after the trial.

It was really after I felt like I had spilled like my darkest secrets on a very public stage that I felt like this is it. I have to do something about it now. And that's where it all began. And let's see, that was back in, sentencing was in 2011. So 15 years ago. Was that the first trial? That was the trial. That was for, sorry.

That, I mean, Wanda Barzzi, she took a plea deal. Yeah. And Brian Mitchell, that's when he was convicted, was 2011. Okay. Yeah. Or was it 2012. I was for some of the thing and it was earlier than that, but. I mean, no, it took the better part of a decade before my case actually was finished.

I mean, it was an big car. It was in the state courts and Utah had the statute of limitations there. So that almost expired, which if that expired, that meant that basically they'd be able to walk free. So it wasn't until my case was moved to the federal courts that there was actually a conviction made. Why did it take so long? Why did it take the better part of a decade? Because this seems like something that should have been open and shut. Right.

I mean, I was very desperate to get back to my life. And this wasn't necessarily something that I wanted to think about. So I might not have all of the details completely correct. But it was always a matter of, it felt like it was always a matter. The thing that I heard the most was that they needed to be found competent to stand trial. And it was always they're not competent. They're not competent. and then it was trying to prove competency of when they actually committed the crime.

And so it was always, it felt like it was just always a matter of competency. And I remember sitting in the courtroom listening to one of the psychiatrists who, I mean, was for the defense. And he was talking about his findings. But then I remember the prosecution getting up and asking him how much time he had actually spent with the defendant. and I think he said it was about two hours and I was just so disgusted. How could you come to a conclusion in like two hours when you had years to observe him? You had years to like do more research. I just, I just was disgusted by it.

This is one of the most frustrating things. I'm going to say this for listeners. I'm going to share a story that a friend of mine shared with me. Prior to COVID, there was a situation and I won't go into like detail with it where a very, very young child-like, four years old, was a, was a victim of abuse, I believe, at a daycare facility. And I think this was in Pennsylvania. And this was when COVID hit.

And so she had, you know, she did everything right. You know, they took her to, you know, the doctor. They had, you know, forensic analysis, everything, all that, all of that done. But she had to testify. And COVID happened. So her trial date got pushed back and pushed back. And you have kids, I have kids. At that age, six months changes everything.

And so what ended up happening was the abuser walked. And that's what's really frustrating. So they took almost a decade for you. And you were old enough to remember to be able to talk about what happened. But for like other cases like this, this is why a lot of these predators fall through the cracks and are able to, you know, go out and harm somebody else again. because they're like, oh, I got a slap on the wrist or, you know, nothing happened. Let me just keep doing what I'm doing.

I mean, and that, I guess, what I would stress to victims everywhere is that we don't actually have a justice system for, I mean, for whatever happened to you, like, you will never get that made up to you. Like, there's nothing that can give you back what was taken from you. We don't have a justice system. We have a legal system. And it is not a victim-friendly place, unfortunately. I like, you know, here it's innocent until proven guilty.

And for many things, I think that's probably a good stance. But when it comes to sexual violence, child abuse, domestic violence, I think you should be guilty until proven innocent. I agree. I mean, the victim, you know, how many victims make false claims? It's between 2 and 8%. Like, honestly, if we even take the bigger number, 8%, I'm okay with being wrong 8% of the time.

I'm okay with being right 92% of the time. I mean, if this was a math test, that would still be an A, maybe an A minus. Like, you should always believe victims before you doubt them because most of the time they're telling the truth. The vast majority of the time, they're telling the truth. And this is based off of victims who actually report, victims who actually speak up. I mean, how many more never say anything? Too many. No, I agree.

I think, you know, let me go down this little rabbit hole and dovetail off that. So I think that if you were to look at the people who never come forward, never report, that number would probably skew to be closer to that 2%, you know, altogether because there's so many people that are, you know, coerced into silence or beaten into silence or just a shame and don't want to come forward. And I think that, you know, we know the numbers, it's, depending on what you look at, it's, you know, one in three or four girls and one in five or six or six or seven boys, something like that.

And most of the time the males don't come forward. And I'll tell you something that really frustrates me. And you might have seen when I've done this post on this, there was a situation where males were the victims of a female predator. And, you know, she was what society would deem as pretty. And so you have all of these older men in the comments, basically, oh, I wish that happened when I was a teenager. And in my opinion, all that does is it continues to make these young boys

who have to experience this trauma. think to themselves, well, these guys say that I should be happy that this happened to me instead of what really, you know, what it really was, which was a predatory situation. And so there's a lot of struggles that I have with the way, the legal system, the way that the, you know, even court of public opinion, if you will, handles a lot of these things. It's very frustrating. I mean, the court of public opinion is brutal because it's not when they, I mean, when you look at a victim, it's not just based on what happened.

It's based on their history. Like what were they like before this happened? How were they dressed before this happened? All of these other details that really should not make any difference whatsoever. They get brought in. And I mean, I understand why victims don't report. I understand why victims don't want to go to court. like I understand completely why that happens. And the sad truth is, you know, it's only about one

and every thousand predators are successfully prosecuted. That's, that is, those are brutal odds for the victim. And then if this person is someone who has power, who has influence, you know, there's always going to be people who are like, well, I know him or I know her. And they would never do this. And they're a good person they donate money to all these causes they even donate cause causes to abuse children or they donate to you know the children's justice center they would never do this but it shouldn't matter who you are or how much money you have or if you have political power or not you should be held to the same standard as everybody else i fully agree with that um you were talking earlier about um the survivors that you've worked with, things like that.

What do people think that they understand about surviving trauma that they often get wrong? I'm going to say something that I don't want to come off as offensive or insensitive in any way. But I feel like the biggest tragedy that I see is the loss of life to evasionable. victims. So, like, when a murder happens, you know, that is horrifying and terrible, and nothing will ever make that right. And, like, those victims, they deserve their stories shared. Their

families deserve all the love and support in the world. But victims that I see a sexual violence and domestic abuse and childhood abuse, the saddest thing I see there is that these victims, their bodies are alive, but they're not living. It's a living loss of life. And I think that is one of the biggest tragedies that I see. I mean, they are almost the walking dead because they're not living a full life. They're not living even half of the life that they should be living, that they deserve to live. I think that is one of the saddest things that I see. And I think a lot of people just think once the abuse stops, that's it. Like, you should be grateful it stopped. You should just easily be able to move forward. That they're, you know, like you're out of pain. You're out of danger.

or like just let it go, but it's not that simple. It's not that easy. This is pain that many people will never understand the depth of. And there's such a fear moving forward. There's a fear of connecting with other people. There is a fear of ever getting in a relationship, an intimate relationship again. There is a fear of not being believed. There is just so much fear and shame associated to these crimes.

that, I mean, I've seen just too many survivors who their bodies are alive, but they're not actually living. I think you bring up a really good point. When the headlines fade away, people forget that these are people out there that are still trying to heal from whatever they went through. And also, no matter what type of abuse, because we're not going to say that one abuse is different than the other there's different types but that's something that you live with for the rest of your life you might seem fine but every once in a while um i grew up in a very physically abusive household so um verbally emotionally and obviously very different than what you went through but every once in while i'll just get in my head and i won't be able to stop and i think that people need to understand

that when you have somebody who has gone through such severe trauma um such severe abuse that it doesn't Even if it's one time, depending on what it is, it doesn't go away. It's always there. Yeah. And I mean, yeah, they're just, it's just so, I mean, I'd say it just takes a tremendous amount of courage to come forward. It takes a tremendous amount of trust. And so if anyone ever shares with you their story or discloses to their story, I would just hope that whoever they're being disclosed to,

their first reaction is to believe them. Their second reaction is to let them know that they're love, that they're there for you. And the third one is that you keep showing up, that, you know, it's not your job to interrogate them. It's not your job to find out all the dirty details. You know, say, I get it. Like some...

Okay, you warn me. Let me just put him in his little bedroom. be right back. We're making mine go. Sorry about that. No, I have two of them. They heard yours and they started going. I mean, you've heard my dog.

You've seen my cat. My kids have run through. It's okay. You know what? Look, life happens. It's okay. That's how this goes. I just appreciate the time.

I'm sorry. No, no, not at all. It's funny. You are such a millennial also, but you're such a millennial because we just apologize for everything, even if we don't need to. I'm so sorry. No, it's totally okay. All right. So with what we're talking about, let me ask you a question because I think this is a good segue. Are there words or phrases that are used about survivors that you wish would disappear?

1,000% yes. First of all, I wish people would stop saying things like, well, why didn't you run? Why didn't you do this? Why didn't you do that? Sorry, there's a terrible glare. Basically, any question that starts with the words, why didn't you? I wish people wouldn't say. Because I feel like survivors then feel like they should have done more. They should have done, like they should have tried harder to survive when really. Who's to say that if they did something else, that they would still be alive? Who's to say that their perpetrator wouldn't have killed them or wouldn't have beat them or wouldn't have done something worse to them than what they're already surviving?

as a community, as just humans, I would hope that our first reaction is to, like, surround these people with love and support and not just immediately start questioning them. That is one thing I wish that people wouldn't say. Another thing that I wish people wouldn't say is, oh, well, you experienced Stockholm syndrome. You are a victim of Stockholm syndrome. Honestly, I'm not a thousand percent sure that Stockholm syndrome even exists because, is you do what you have to do to survive. And from the outside looking in, that might not always be understandable.

You might not always be like, well, you know, like, for instance, you take victims of domestic violence. You look at them and you're like, you have a phone. Like you have a debit card. You've got a credit card. You had a car. Like, why wouldn't you just leave? It is never that simple.

Or we can use my own case as an example. You know, my captors did eventually bring me out into the public. And we were even approached by police months before I was rescued. And I've been asked, you know, why didn't you say something? Why didn't you scream? Why didn't you run? Why didn't you do more? And for years, I actually felt really defensive about that.

Like, I hated it when people would ask me those questions because I felt like I was being blamed for not doing more. But what they didn't see was, you know, the threats. happening behind the scenes, they didn't see, they didn't experience. They weren't there for the abuse that I went through, for the rapes that I went through, for the starvation, the chaining up. They weren't there for any of that. And so every decision I made during my captivity was, will I survive? If I do this, what will happen to me? Will I survive? Will I not survive? And I knew what my captors were capable of. I knew that they could kill me if they wanted to. I didn't

know what the police were capable of. Would they believe me? In my mind, I was like, I'm a teenager. And these are adults. And they're sitting here saying they're doing God's work. So why would police officers believe me over them? And I mean, they had successfully manipulated people for years and years, far before I was ever kidnapped. And they'd gotten away with it. So why wouldn't they get away with, you know, and they did get away with kidnapping me and hurting me. Nobody ever stopped them from that until I was rescued. And that was nine months later. So when we look at victims, you don't know what's happening behind the scenes. And I get there's an element of natural curiosity, but it's not your job to ask questions. You know, you can say to them,

hey, I'm here for you. I don't know what you feel comfortable talking about, but I want you to know, like, I'm happy to talk about it. Or I'm happy just to, you know, go on a walk with you and talk about who's going to be voted off on traitors. Or who's going to make it through on the British Bake Off? Like, we can talk about those kinds of things, too. Or we can go get ice cream. I think I'm giving, I think, the Vick.

on back the control in the conversation is actually a huge gift because whatever happened to them, they had zero control over. And I want to add this to what you were saying too, because you were talking about when people ask, you know, why didn't you? That immediately shifts the blame back onto the victim. Exactly. Because and when you're sitting here and you're saying, well, the cops approached or the police approached us and we talk to them, I immediately, and maybe I'm off base and you can tell me if

I'm wrong. I'm thinking you're a child, you know, 14 years old is still a child by all sense of the word. And you don't know what they're going to do to you and you're scared. What are you going to say? And that's not your fault that you didn't say anything. It's that was just a situation you were in to try to survive. And to me that makes sense. And I think that when people, and it's a good, for them, it's a good thing. If they don't understand where somebody's coming from in a situation like that, then that's a good thing. means they haven't had to experience it themselves. But they need to check that privilege, in my opinion, a little bit. Exactly.

I agree with you a thousand percent. That's it. That's it. You just said it better than I did. My question I had, which we kind of talked about, if there's any others, you can let me know, is how does language shape how survivors see themselves? I think it does shape them a lot. Another, I guess, phrase that I really did.

is like would be fawning. Because I feel like fawning has like a connotation of like you're fawning all over someone. Like you want that attention. You want to give that attention. So, you know, like someone likes you back or it's like really flirty behavior. At least that's what it is in my mind. And I feel like, no, like that's not what this is. I feel like I am I'm good friends with Dr. Rebecca Bailey. I don't know if you're familiar with her, but she has studied the trauma responses, I'd say extensively. You know, everyone has kind of heard of fight, flight, freeze. But she has studied this fourth trauma response and she calls it appeasement. And I feel like that describes what happened to me. I did whatever I could to make my captors like me so that I could survive.

It wasn't because I liked them. It wasn't because, you know, I wanted to spend the rest of my life with them or I enjoyed being raped or I enjoyed being chained up. I did what I had to do because I was afraid of the consequences. And so I feel like that is a much better term than this term of fawning. I feel like that's, that's just degrading. Yeah, I didn't know that. So that's a good.

That's a good one. what do people think they understand about surviving trauma that they actually get wrong? I think, again, that it's finite and that recovery should be like a straight line. Like you only get better and better after time. Whereas I would argue, you know, it's more of a roller coaster. Like, sure, you can like be on like a great trajectory. Like every day is getting better and better. And you're seeing all this progress.

But it's not. that easy. There's setbacks along the way. Like sometimes, you know, you'll be going along really great and then something happens and you just kind of sink back down into depression. Or, oh, this is a big one. This is a big one that I get so frustrated by. And that is like the trap of comparison when, like, when I go out and speak, a lot of times, like, there'll be a meet and greed or people will approach me afterwards, and they'll say things to me like, Elizabeth, I experienced something similar to you, but nothing in comparison. And that just makes me feel so bad for them because we're putting these expectations on ourselves, like, like healing ends. There's a point

where you've been healed or you should be healed. Again, should. I think that's a very dangerous word around victims and survivors. Or that, you know, she went through something like so horrific. Like she was held captive for nine months. And, you know, I was just groped on a bus. But like she seems like she's totally fine. And I'm scared to go to work every day. this like this is just not healthy for anyone this is dangerous for everyone because we're all different and you know we were raised in different circumstances i think like the things that were made up inside of us we're all different and you know whatever works for me because that's another thing people are like oh what did you do what did you do like how come you're okay today what did you do

share me share with me your secret for healing like i don't have a secret i just found what worked for me and that's not to say that would work for anybody else like you have to find what works for you and i can start by saying comparison doesn't work for anybody that doesn't help anyone that doesn't do anyone any favors that just makes you feel worse about yourself yeah i agree that everybody's trauma is unique everybody's trauma affects them differently and what might be something that's one person can shrug off might be something that somebody lives with for the next 20 years. Yeah. And that's okay.

It's everybody's journey is different. And I would just also add to that. You know, I also have a lot of comments made like, you are so strong. I could never be as strong as you are. Well, if I knew if someone had told me what was going to happen to me before I actually experienced it, I would have been like, no, there's no way. I am not strong enough to go through that. But when you're put in a situation where you don't have a choice,

like I think we're all a lot stronger than we give ourselves credit for. Like I did not have a choice. It was keep going. I mean, even if I had wanted to commit suicide while I was in captivity, like, what could I really do? You know, first of all, it's not something that I ever looked up or studied before I was kidnapped. And it's not like knives were left around me. Like I was chained up. There was just not very much to do.

Plus, like, I didn't want to die. So if I didn't want to die, what option did that leave me with? Left me with surviving each day. And I think, like, I think that's just true of everyone. Nobody knows what they're capable of until they're pushed to their limits. And beyond, frankly. Yeah, you hear those stories like, you know, moms lifting cars off their toddlers or things like that and people, people don't realize the mind and the body are a very powerful thing and more so than we know. Is there a moment after rescue that was more difficult than people realize?

I think there's just been times where I have felt like that it's just been unfair. that, I mean, I look back on the trial, I felt like there was a lot of unfairness there. I mean, that it took so long that they almost walked free. Was there ever any question that it was them? No. In my mind, it was always, like, very clear. And I thought it was clear for everyone else as well. I mean, they were, you know, picked up with me by the police.

Like, they never denied that they took me. They never denied that, well, I mean, he, you know, he had said I was his wife, so I think it's pretty understandable how I was treated if he's saying that. Like, that felt unfair. Or times when I felt like I was put on the spot or times that I maybe have felt judged because I'm white, because I have blonde hair, because I came from. from a nice neighborhood and a nice family. And I don't deny that there has been a gross, again, injustice to African Americans,

the indigenous population, to anyone else that doesn't have, you know, white skin and blonde hair and blue eyes. Like, I am not denying that. Like, actually, you know, I, like, we need to do better for all of them. But also had my story not gotten the attention that it got, I might not be here today. I might not be alive. So at the same time, like, I'm not sorry that I got as much attention as I have. Do I realize it's unfair?

A thousand percent. Absolutely. Yes, I do. Do I think everyone should get the same amount of attention? Yes, because how many more survivors would we see come home? I don't think you could put a number on it. And for too many victims, I mean, the indigenous population in particular, it's not a question of if it happens. It's a question of when it happens and how many times.

And that is not right. That's disgusting. So, like, sometimes I feel like I'm putting an impossible situation. But at the same time, I'm not sorry. Well, I want to say this to you. because the Petito family kind of felt the same way, right? That, you know, why do we get all of this attention? And yes, you are blonde hair, blue eyes, you were a kid.

But part of this also, because there's a lot of kids or people that go missing that are, you know, women, girls with blonde hair, blue eyes. I think what made, and this is my opinion, I think what made your case go, I can't use the term, I don't remember what it was called before it was called viral, but you know what I mean. before it became very well known, was because it was strange that you were in your house and you were taken from your bedroom window and it was and just disappeared. And I think that that particular scenario is what kind of made people really jump on board to try to, you know, figure out what happened. I can't even imagine what it would have been like if it happened in today's world with this type of social media out there. But it was such, it's such an odd, unusual even for a kidnapping, I think that that just my personal opinion, that it's because of the

uniqueness of the story. I mean, I think that probably did play a role in it. And like my family was like they weren't going to let it go. They weren't going to let the story die. I mean, they were going to do everything in their power to bring me home, even if it was against what police and law enforcement said to do. So I think that also played a big role in it. And I realize not everybody has the family that I have.

So and unfortunately, in many cases, it is the family members who are guilty of the abuse or the kidnapping. So that's also very difficult as well. What doesn't magically get fixed just because someone survives? I mean, everything. I think it kind of goes back to what we were talking. about before like the pain doesn't just immediately disappear we have good days we have bad days you're not just magically going to have like a day where you're completely healed like it's a journey and um hey life isn't going to stop you're still going to have to i don't know get a job be responsible

pay your taxes i don't know like if you have kids show up for your kids and um And, you know, that can be really difficult to navigate as much as we'd like to say, like, I'm done. That's it. I need someone to take care of me. A lot of times we don't have those choices. Yeah, you said something interesting. So when you were getting older and you were, you know, going through jobs, going through school, what you were a very recognizable name, what was that interaction experience like for you? I mean, there was like part of me, I'll say, yeah, it was like a normal high school experience.

But at the same time, people would walk down the halls and then yell, Elizabeth Smart to see if I turned to see if it was actually me. Or I think people didn't really know how to be around me. Like they didn't want to offend me. They didn't want to say something that was going to, like, hurt me. or they'd probably been told by their parents, like, don't question her about what happened. Just like, let her be. And so then I think maybe some people were even hesitant to try to be my friend because they didn't want to, like, say something that was going to, I don't know, damage me.

And then, of course, I think there was the opposite where maybe as I got like a little bit older, probably there were some boys that, like, wanted to go on a date with me so they could be like, oh, I went on a date with Elizabeth Smart, which sounds like. so stupid, but at the same time. Very cringe right now, but I mean, guys are stupid. So it's, I believe. At the same time, I think that probably did happen. So when you went back to school after, how long were you out?

Like, I mean, obviously you were gone, you know, because you were captive for nine months. After you were rescued? How long were you kept out of school? Like, how long did? I guess what I'm asking is how quickly did you try to get back to your old life? Did you stay out for a while for, you know, any healing? journey or did you try to get back into it pretty quickly? I mean, when I came home, my parents were like, what do you want to do?

And I was like, I want to go to school because I thought, you know, when I had been kidnapped, I thought that, like, that had been taken away from me. And, you know, like my whole life was the expectation that I'd go to college and, like, have all of these, I don't know, right of passage kind of experiences. and I had been devastated, of course, for all the reasons you'd expected, being taken from my family, being hurt, all those kinds of things. But then also just like the fact that I wasn't going to get to live the life that I had imagined for myself, that was also pretty devastating.

And so when I got back and they're asking me, and I'm like, I want to go to school. My parents were like, ah, how about? you just take the rest of the year off. So from March to June, and then you can go back to school in the fall. This is just for my own curiosity's sake. Did the school, like, did you end up losing a year in school? Like, did you have to do like an extra year or did they work with you to make? I mean, I don't, this might be a weird question to be asking you.

I just don't know how this works. No, so I was asked, because I missed my junior high graduation. they were like, the junior high was like, oh, if you want to graduate, like, with this class the year after you, you know, you can like do your like junior high graduation with them. And I just remember thinking, oh, no, like all of my, all of the kids that I have been to school with my whole life, like, they've moved on. I don't, like, I want to move on with them. And so the option to repeat my freshman year was given to me. And I didn't want to do that either. There were some. classes that I had to take, like, through homeschool or packets. Like, I had to take geography. I had to take an English class, which, I mean, I, like, English was one of my best subjects my whole life. So, like, I loved reading, always loved reading.

Didn't mind writing that much. Math and science, like, terrible at that. but like English and history, like those I could do. But I had to take an English class and I had to take like a couple P.E. credits, which like part of me was just like, really? Like, of all the physical exertion like that you do in P.E. class, I'm pretty sure that pales in comparison to what I was living through. every day. They could have made an exception on PE. Yeah, but I mean, I had to take it.

So I did. And I mean, I ended up just graduating, actually graduated half a year early from high school. But graduated, yeah, with my class. That's awesome. And I agree with you on the math and science, by the way. That was history, loved history, loved English, hated math and science. hated it i mean now like i'm like oh so that's how the human body works okay now i'm like way more interested in science but yeah at the time no way and i mean math to the stay i'm still like

goes right over my head i've actually gotten pretty good at math it was just kind of weird because i hated it like i can do percentages in my head now my wife would be like how much is this off i'm like oh blah blah blah but like it's it's i know it's it's it's very beneficial when she shops she's like how much is this off i'm like well if you do this much and if it's like a 40% off and then another 20, then I have to do all that. I can do it all my head. So that's, that is my, that is my superpower, I guess. But, um, anyway, so what is the question that you never get asked that you wish someone

would ask you? Oh. I told you I was going to ask you from tough questions that you haven't been asked before. I feel like I've been asked a lot of questions. I don't actually know. I don't know that I have an answer to that, actually. Well, that's okay if you don't have an answer. You don't have an answer.

Yeah, I don't think I can. Well, what part, let me ask you this part then, because we started this kind of talking about how much of your story. I'll give me one to say. Let me stop this. I have an Oklahoma State representative that won't stop texting me. So I'm going to. Oh, okay. For a second, I was like worried that was coming through me.

And I was like, I don't even know. No, that was me. Evans. It's the representative on the, um, The Jesse Butler case, that I'm sure you may be seen the kid in Oklahoma who raped and abused and strangled two girls. Yes. Yeah. So the representative is trying to get a grand jury together because of the court system and the judges.

And it's, yeah. So that's kind of, he's like texting me all about that. And he can't do it in one text. He sent me like eight of them so far. So hold on. Sorry about that. I mean, it makes me feel a little bit better because like my dog's still barking in the background and all all the things. Again, here's the thing.

It's better. Nothing has to be, you know, proper and polished. It's real life, right? This is a real conversation. So it's okay. Don't think too much on it. Okay, so what we were talking about, let me mark this for her, make her life easier. Okay.

So what we were talking about at the beginning? beginning of this was that there's a lot of your story that doesn't get told when you do interviews or your story is shared. What part of your story still feels unheard? I mean, I think probably like the, I don't feel like I'm typically go into too much detail about like the psychological. abuse that took place and like how religion. I mean, people will ask like surface questions, but I guess like actually describing what it was like and how they used it, that typically has not gotten into too much. Well, this is your chance if you want to.

I mean... It's up to you. I mean, again, this is whatever you're comfortable talking about. Like, my captors. legitimately used it to justify everything. And they would use examples from the Bible. And if they didn't have an answer for it that they could find in the Bible, they would come up with their own revelation. So for example, Mitchell and Barzzi, they would get into like pretty big fights, pretty big arguments. And the way that Mitchell would play Kate Barsey was he would then, I mean, like, sometimes like it would go on for a while or they'd just like be angry

with each other and kind of separate storm off a little bit and separate themselves. But eventually what would happen is Mitchell would come back. He'd approach Barzzi. And, And he'd say things like, he'd say, like, so they didn't, they didn't use their normal names. They gave themselves names. And Mitchell's name that he went by was Emmanuel, Emmanuel David Isaiah, to be exact. And Juan, sorry what? How pious of him. I know.

And Wanda Barzzi, she went by Hepsaba, Elida, Isaiah. And just like the way that they spoke to each other, I mean, the way he would come back to her and talk to her after they'd been fighting, he'd say things like, Hepsaba, I love thee. God has a message for thee. And then he would like give her a blessing that would say that she needs to accept that whatever Emmanuel was experienced was his struggle and his load that he had to carry. was so heavy and she needs to be like his helpmate and she needs to be understanding of this. And that's also when he would bring in things like, you need to be more understanding of his needs as a man. And your glory is like that of the sun. And so while it is daylight, you know, like Emmanuel will have sex with you.

Whereas me, and the name that they called me, was Sheer Jashab, where Shear Jashab, her glory is only like that of the moon and stars. So he will only lie with her at nighttime. And that would last for like two days. And then he would come forward with some new revelation because that wasn't enough rape for him. because he'd want to rape me more than just that. And then he'd turned to me and he'd say things like, you need to be grateful that God chose you.

Among all women, he chose you to be my wife. And you need to start showing me your gratitude. And you need to treat me the way a wife is supposed to treat a husband. And you're not just married to any husband. Like, I am a prophet and I am a Davidic king and you need to treat me that way. And you need to realize that you are nothing next to me. I mean, for example, one time, like, I grew up in a family where we didn't drink alcohol. And I remember going through the DARE program and being like, yeah, I'm never going to do that.

But he did bring alcohol into the camp. And, I mean, I was put in situations where I didn't have a choice. I just had to drink it. And like I was a 14 year old kid, 14, 15, like I had zero tolerance for alcohol. And one time he had me drink so much that I ended up throwing up and then passing out in it. And the next morning I woke up and like my face was crusted to the ground and it was like all crusted in my hair. And he just kind of laughed at me and he was like, you know, God had to show you your true form. your true state, your spiritual state of being, and that's faced down in your own vomit,

and you need to, you know, you need to rise above that. So, I mean, they just had, like, they just had a way of justifying everything they wanted to do. And, I mean, they had a way of justifying everything that, like, the outside world did to them as well. It was either a test, a trial, a tribulation. God was testing our faith. Just, they had a way of justifying everything. And it's not because I think they actually believed it. I think it's because they found it was the best way to manipulate the people around them

and get away with what they wanted. When they, I mean, that's extreme in so many different levels. But when they were doing that, did it ever get to a point that you, you were believing what they were saying, where, you know, he is this profit or were you still in your mind, this guy's just full of it? I mean, I, like, I got to a point. where I felt like I knew like the terminology enough.

I knew like what they expected. I knew how to behave. But like I always knew they were wrong. Like the God I'd been raised with my whole life was not cruel, was not vindictive, was not the way they used him to justify what they were doing. False prophets. Yeah. Is there any other parts of the story that you haven't gotten to share that you feel are important to share?

I mean, this is totally up to you against as much or as little as you want, Elizabeth. Like, I feel like over the years, like I've shared, there are some things I'll probably never share. Like, the full extent of, like, the sexual abuse. Like, I feel like I talk about rape pretty commonly. And, like, I talked about the first time I was raped. I've talked about the second time I was raped. but I'll probably never go into like the full extent, like the nitty-gritty details of everything that happened to me.

So I don't, I mean, but beyond that, I feel like I talk about a lot of, like, a lot of the bad things that happened. I feel like I'm, besides that, I'm a pretty open book. Yeah, and I agree with you. Some things people don't need to know the nitty-gritty details because unfortunately, as I'm sure you're well aware, there are people out there that would listen to that for not the right purposes,

if we'll put that. So I kind of agree with you on that. What does healing actually look like, not the inspirational version, but the real version? I mean, just that it's not straightforward. It's not just like a perfect line, you know? Like, I'm human. We all probably only project our best selves.

I mean, I can go on interviews and like say, oh, well, this help, this help, this helped. And that's all true. That's not a lie. That is all true. But also, like, I have bad days. And, like, I have times where I'm angry or upset or, like, it feels unfair. Like, my life isn't perfect. Or, like, sure, there's, like, things that, like, I don't like watching true crime right before I go to bed.

And actually, like, sometimes when I see other movies, like, like finding Nemo, that came out right after I was rescued and I remember I went to see it with a youth group and I watched it and I was like okay Nemo was kidnapped but it's like he went on this really cool adventure made all these new friends they all escaped together and I was like that's not what kidnapping is like like that's wrong and I remember just being like I don't like this movie this is a dumb movie I literally never thought of finding me that way and most people would but you're but you're Right. At its core, that's what it is. He gets taken from his dad and his dad is searching the ends of the earth for him. And I mean, you're 100% right. I've just never thought of it that way. Or like where the crawdad sing, like, one of my really good friends was like, you have to read this book. I think you'll love it. And I read it and I was like, no. Like, unfortunately, you know, victims think they don't get justice like that. And like, they shouldn't be encouraged.

like this is not this is not a good story what would you like parents educators and you know kids anybody listening to take from your story if they were hearing it today um i would want them of course to take hope out of it like all of us can go through terrible things all of us have a story i mean every single one of us goes through trauma in our life um i hope they walk away feeling like they shouldn't compare traumas that you know like having support finding your support network is really important. Like I hope that they have some perspective on hopefully how to treat other victims. I also hope that they walk away and feel like I'm stronger than I think I am. And these are important conversations to have with our kids. And actually the most important gift I feel like any parent can give their kid is to let their kids know that you love them unconditionally,

that you love them no matter what. There isn't anything that anyone else could do to you that would make me stop loving you. I think that's really important too. What gives you hope now that keeps you going? Obviously, I'm sure your kids are part of that, but. Yeah, I mean, my kids definitely, like, they demand my attention every morning. But, I mean, like, I think just, like, also enjoying my life.

Like, I do have a great life. Like, yes, again, I have bad days. but I do have a great life. Like I got married and like I do have my family and like I find like I like going on vacations and I like reading a good book and like, you know, I like cooking and I don't know. I like the British bakeoff or friends or like I like the simple things too. And I think also just realizing that there are more good people in this world. then there are bad people i think that's really important as well for what's worth i could tell that you like the british bake off because that was a very specific example used earlier in this conversation

of all the shows you could choose it was that one i thought that was kind of funny well you know obviously i appreciate you taking the time to have this conversation i also want to kind of turn it over to you for this um in this regard you have a brand new book that's out You have social media, which we can link, of course, into the show notes where anybody wants to follow you. But would you want to talk about your book's book or your newest one or even your other ones that you've got? Because you've written three, right? Yes, I'm written three, yeah. Sure, let me just grab a cable real quick.

Again, like, I thought I was prepared. Clearly, I'm not. You know what? The thing is, if I'm asking you something that you weren't prepared for, then I think I've done this right. Okay. And I'm sorry, like, my background has changed. 10 times. That's okay.

Your house looks beautiful. Oh, thank you. Sorry, I'll try that again, Anglissa the glare is not quite as bad. Yes, so my last book, I mean, that I would say really is more about healing. That is not,

like my first book, really, the title is my story, and it is like my story. That is really more like what happened. Yeah, that is, Like, if you want to know, that's what it is. And then my second book, I took the most commonly asked questions that I get.

So, like, have you forgiven your captors? Like, like, how do you trust people again? And I took, I compiled those questions. And then I realized not everyone's story or beliefs or thoughts or ideas will resound with mine. And so I went out and I interviewed people that I admire and I asked them those same questions. And then I tried to compile them into a book. And that was hard. That was really hard.

I had a great idea though. And then my last book, I tried to pinpoint the kind of the turning points in my healing journey, like the things that really stood out to me that made a difference. So like the first one, I think, I think that there's kind of like, again, these thoughts that anger and sadness are bad emotions, are bad things to feel. But I don't think that's true. I mean, they're just emotions and you're entitled to feel however you feel. You're entitled to your emotions. And so it's like it's okay to grieve the path that was lost to you.

Like I this whole book is like kind of based on um about the titles detours. So like you know how life is compared to like life is a highway, life is a journey, you know, a path in the woods convert. Not converged. Yeah. Converged. Yeah. Whatever it is.

Um, there's all these like comparisons. And so I took that comparison and then I like life doesn't ever go the way you imagine it going. Like there's all. always going to be detours along the way. And I think one of the first steps that happens is it's okay to grieve the life you imagined for yourself or grieve the lost relationship along the way. Like anger, sadness, grief, like that's part of it. So like for me, you know, like I missed out my freshman year of high school. Like, like we go in lots of things, lots of directions of things that were taken from me. And so it's okay for me to grieve those losses. But you know,

like don't stay grieving forever, like in the state of like deep grief to the point where you can't function. Like it's okay to always look back and feel like a tinge of sadness. I talk more about like my present. So like seven years ago, my parents divorced. And so. And so, So I do use kind of my own experiences, like how I felt about that. Like, you know, for example, the holidays are different now. Like, we're not altogether as a family. And like, you're with dad, you're with mom. Not with both of them at the same time.

So I kind of talk about grief is natural. And I mean, maybe divorce is a lot more. relatable than kidnapping. And then, you know, it's important to find support along the way. Like, find your people that can show up for you day in and day out. That's an important step along the way. Another one that I talk about is like finding the courage to speak up, to not be afraid, to ask for help. There's so many different modalities of their. I'm sure you are like very aware of so many of them, right? But like finding what works for you.

And it doesn't always have to be kind of like the formal sit down therapist client relationship. You know, like maybe what works for you is painting or yoga or hiking out in nature. I don't know. But just finding what works for you and then like pursuing it, using it. using it, not filling guilt, not comparison. And then I think finally, it's just recognize, like, the good things that have maybe come from this new road that you find yourself on. So like for me, like something that I'm grateful for is that had I not been kidnapped, had I not gone through everything that I went through, I don't think I would have ever got,

I wouldn't, I would not have gotten into advocacy because I wouldn't have understood it. I think it's made me a much more compassionate person. I think it's made me a much more empathetic person. I think otherwise I'd probably like, oh, well, yeah, rape and sexual violence, that's terrible, but that doesn't happen very often. And now that I'm in, I'm like, no, like, you want to talk about an epidemic? Like, that's what an epidemic is. And it needs to be talked about so much more because it is so common.

So, I mean, I see all those things as good. then also like it has affected my life decisions like I wouldn't be on the path that I'm on had it not happened to me so who's to say that I would have ever met my husband who's to say that I would have the family that I have or have the life that I live today so in my in my mind those are all really great things it's given me like something that I feel very passionate about it's given me like a purpose it's you know brought me to where I am today I think that's a phenomenal outlook. So I got your book. I believe I bought it off Talk Shop, but people can get it on Amazon, Talk Shop, Barnes & Noble's. Elizabeth. Yeah. So, and can they get all the books,

I guess, off of the same? I guess all of them can't. Definitely Amazon. What can't you get from Amazon? Yeah, well, fair enough. I just, as somebody who's written children's books, I just, I try to not buy from Amazon when supporting an author because I know that you get like nothing from it. Yeah. So I know that's not necessarily what it's about, but I know that that money goes back to you to then help you continue to advocate. And so it's kind of a cycle. So other than purchasing your books, what else can people do to kind of help you with advocacy or to. I mean, I'm sorry family. Like have these conversations with your kids. Like have these conversations within your community. Don't and just don't think once is enough. Like these should be ongoing.

conversations. Like I get it might be scary starting with your kids. Like you might be like, I don't want to scare them. I don't want to share things with them before they're ready. That's okay. You don't have to share like nitty gritty stuff with them. You can just talk about like, again, using the anatomically correct body part names, like don't attach shame to penis, vagina, vulva. Like they are just body parts like hand, elbow, face. So there shouldn't be shame attached that. You know, talking to them. What does consent actually mean? Like if someone's like, please, but I love you.

We love each other. But please, no, if you really love me, you do this. And you keep saying no. And then finally you give in. Well, that actually is not consent. That's coercion. You know, just like having these big conversations are really, really important. You know, it's funny you say that.

So my daughter's six. And we literally had that conversation with her over the weekend. because so first of all we've always used the proper names for parts you know for body parts because you know doing what i do i've learned very early on that that is for parents listening that is absolutely critical because when you're talking if something god forbid does happen and you're talking to an investigator and you use some sort of you know i don't even want to use slang but some softer term for body parts then that's something that a defense attorney can easily argue against saying well how do we know that that's what they meant so you have to use the correct

terms. But there's a boy in her class that won't leave her alone, won't stop holding her hand. And like she's pulling away and he's not doing it. And so we had a whole conversation with her. You should only have to say no once. Yeah. Other than that say no. So make sure to have these conversations with their kids from a very, very, very young age. So I appreciate you bringing that up. Well, and also, I mean, like your kids are allowed to physically defend themselves. Absolutely. Like my daughter recently punched a boy. And when she told me what happened, And I was like, yeah, that's exactly what I want you to do. I don't know what happened, but I know he deserved it.

He absolutely did deserve it. So. Well, I appreciate your time in talking to me. Before we go, is there anything else that I haven't asked? I know I've asked you a lot of questions. Is there anything else that I haven't asked her that we haven't talked about that we should? I just think that the only thing that I would add and why I really appreciate you and why I agree to do this is because, because I think sharing stories is so important because I feel like that's how we learn the very best.

And you can share statistics and those can be shocking. And I know I shared a few today. But also, I don't remember every statistic I've ever heard, no matter how shocking it is. But I don't forget how I felt when I heard a story or when I hear a new story. And I just feel like that is the best way for everyone to learn. and that's what makes the biggest impact. So I think it's great that you share these stories, that you bring these conversations up.

And to everyone listening, I would just say that's why it's important to learn about these kinds of stories and not just for the sake of entertainment, but for the sake of learning, for the sake of victims, for the sake of justice. I appreciate you saying that. And that's somebody has to be the voice. for those who are smaller or for those who are no longer here.

So sharing their story, allowing people to know that it happened. I agree with you. I think that's incredibly important for awareness because, you know, having that awareness helps prevent those things from happening to others. And if it saves one person, then it's worth it. Absolutely. Well, thank you so much. Until next time, this has been unheard.

It might be.