Unheard: True Crime in Their Own Words - He Prosecuted a Serial Killer—What He Says the System Hides

Episode Date: February 23, 2026

Most people will never come face-to-face with a serial killer.Jarrett Ferentino has.Before becoming a nationally recognized legal analyst, Jarrett was a homicide prosecutor who helped build cases against some of the most dangerous criminals in America, including serial killer Hugo Selenski, who hid bodies on his own property while living in plain sight.In this episode of Unheard, Jarrett takes us inside the justice system from the perspective few ever experience.We discuss:• What it’s actually like to prosecute a serial killer• The Brittanee Drexel case and how forensic science finally solved it• How modern DNA technology is rewriting cold cases• Corruption, influence, and the role of powerful families• And how those same dynamics help explain how Jeffrey Epstein operated for so longThis conversation goes beyond individual crimes.It explores the intersection of justice, science, power, and accountability — and what happens when the system finally catches up.Jarrett Ferentino is a former homicide prosecutor, legal expert, and victims’ advocate who has spent his career pursuing justice for families who thought they might never get answers.Order Jarrett's New Book Here: https://a.co/d/0hcKf4hJThis is Unheard.—Follow Justin:YouTube: https://youtube.com/@justinthenickofcrimeInstagram: https://instagram.com/justinthenickofcrimeSubstack: https://justinthenickofcrime.substack.com—#truecrime #jeffreyepstein #serialkiller #unheard #hugoselenski #brittaneedrexel #truecrimepodcast #justiceSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Most people will never sit across from a serial killer. They'll never look into the eyes of someone accused of taking multiple lives and know that it's their job to prove it. They'll never have to explain to a family why the person they love isn't coming home or why it took years to find them. The man you're about to hear from has lived that reality. He prosecuted notorious serial killer Hugo Selinsky, a man who buried bodies in his own property and lived undetected while family searched for answers. He worked inside a system where justice doesn't come quickly, where cases go cold, where evidence sits in storage free. years waiting for technology to catch up. He also witnessed what happens when it finally does. When DNA identifies the killer, when the truth surfaces, when the story people thought they

understood, changes. That includes cases like Brittany Drexel, a 17-year-old girl who disappeared on spring break. For more than a decade, there were questions without answers until science and persistence uncovered what really happened. But when you spend your life inside these cases, you start to see something bigger. You see how justice works. You see how it fails. you see how some people, through power, money, and influence seem to exist outside of it entirely, which is how we found ourselves talking about Jeffrey Epstein, not just the crimes, but the access, the protection, and the system that allowed it. His name is Jared Farentino, and this is unheard.

Jared, thank you so much for joining us today. We have a lot that we're going to talk about. I know that you were the representation for Brittany Drexel's family. You've covered a lot of different cases as far as prosecution and are very well-versed in the media world. about cases. So I'm excited about this conversation with you today. Likewise, Justin. It's great to be with you. So I don't even know where to start with you. I guess, you know, most people probably are familiar with the Brittany Drexel case. You know, young 17-year-old girl kidnapped in 2017.

No, sorry, 2009, not 2017. Was missing for about nine years. Finally, a confession came out in 2022 or conviction in 2022. And it turns out she had been kidnapped, taped and murdered all in the same night. Absolutely incredibly tragic story. And you ended up representing the family in this whole situation, correct? I did. So I am a former homicide prosecutor. And my life in that realm led me to represent Don Drexel, Brittany Drexel's mother. So just to backtrack a lot of what you said, I mean, summarizes the case, but basically Brittany Drexel was a beautiful 17-year-old high school student from Rochester, New York area. She wants to go down to Myrtle Beach to, with her friends for spring break. Her mother says no. She lies to her mother and

sneaks down there like 17-year-olds would do, right? And she vanished off the face of the earth. Her mother, Don, learns, number one, that Brittany was there and that she's missing. And she is in New York, hundreds of miles away, has to get down there, and that kicks off a 13-year search for Britney Drexel. And if you've followed the case at all, at some point, they were looking at her friends. At another point, they were looking at the Taylor family, an African-American local family that had had some run-ins with the law in the past. and these guys end up on Dr. Phil and all this crazy stuff. They were accused or implicated by a jailhouse informant, and Don was told that Brittany was fed to alligators,

raped, gang raped, shot, rolled into a carpet and fed to alligators, which proved not to be the case. At some point where I became involved is around 2020, a new team of FBI agents was put together. And Don had been so frustrated at that point, after 11 years of getting the runaround, being led in all kind of different directions, having hope that there were going to be answers. So she reached out through a mutual friend and asked me to represent her,

kind of be a go-between with law enforcement, not that Don needs a go-between. She's tough. And that's really where I came in. And then eventually Brittany's body was found. And the individual responsible was one of the original suspects, Raymond Moody, and his girlfriend, Angel Voss, both have been prosecuted. Brittany's body was recovered, and there was a celebration of life for her, and the people responsible are now in jail.

So let's back up. That was a much better summary than I gave. But let's back up. So they're in New York. You're in Pennsylvania. How did you end up getting hooked up together for you to do? So I was on the heels of the prosecution of a serial killer in New York. Northeastern Pennsylvania named Hugo Salinsky. I was a member of the team that prosecuted that case.

And for a long, long time. And a gentleman by the name of Steph Watts, who's an investigative journalist from New York, had watched the Salinsky trial. And he had known Don. And when the time came and Don was seeking representation, Steph and I had become friends. He's like, listen, you need to go to this guy. I just watched a trial he did. I think he can help. you and that's basically it. And I had told Steph, I warned him, I said, I have seven or eight of my own homicides pending. I don't have a law license in South Carolina. I have enough mothers in my own cases to worry about. I will talk with her, but I don't know what I can do for her. I think it was 10 minutes into the conversation. Don had just assumed I was going to represent her at that point.

And if you've ever seen Don on television, you know, she's a fighter. And I was a on board. She is very convincing and doesn't take no for an answer, even from attorney. So that's how I ended up. I never even tried to say no. It was clear. We immediately connected. I wanted to help her. And that's really how I got involved. And we traveled down to South Carolina multiple times. We got to know the investigators very well. We would meet remotely with the investigators on occasion. And really, my role was to kind of be an advocate for Don in that room and then when those meetings would end to translate what was said and to hold the investigators accountable if they fell short of what was being promised to Don. And I have to say they didn't fall short. Although investigators in the past had done so, the group of investigators on Brittany's case for the FBI were fantastic.

So, with a matter, I want to ask this question. So you said the investigators fell short. Are you talking about more like sled and local investigators? Well, it was. Well, it was. So the case, Brittany was taken in Myrtle Beach, McClellanville, Georgetown.

The investigation was pretty wide spread down there. And where investigators fell short is the information was there. was nothing new, ultimately, that led to the prosecution of Moody and Boss. It was just some old-fashioned police work and reviewing the materials that they had. Where it fell short, I think that local law enforcement there initially just wasn't prepared to deal with the case. And it got better. I mean, Sled, Myrtle Beach, PD, and the FBI worked together ultimately in resolving the case. And Jimmy Richardson, who is the solicitor for the district down there, did a great job. You know, and I want to say this, too.

So I used to own a condo in rural beach and surfside specifically. And so love the area. It's a great area. And one thing about Myrtle Beach that's really interesting that I think a lot of people don't understand is that when you take away all the tourists, it is a small town. Yes, it is. The population is not very big. And I say that not to, you know, trivialize any of the work that they do or to, you know, downplay what they do. They just don't really have all the tools that they need at their disposal to investigate something like this.

And so that's why you need outside help. And you know, that's pretty common for small departments. And, you know, no one has the wherewithal or the ability of the FBI. I mean, they're, they don't run out of time or money. So oftentimes, and we're seeing this in the Guthrie case now, when the FBI comes in, you are then, they avail themselves of their technology, their investigative numbers, their investigative experiences, their forensic departments. So you will have, I look at the Colberger case, the chief walked into that house, the first call he made, or one of the first calls he made, or one of the first calls he made, was to the FBI. And that made all the difference in the world. Those departments worked well together. And there's a lot of pride that goes into these investigations. And I always called it the politics of

prosecution. But it's very important that investigators recognize early on if something is beyond them. Because if it's beyond you initially, it will continue to be beyond you as you get into a courtroom and ultimately try to present your case. So there's a couple things that that you've said that now I want, we can do a bunch of offshoots about. I think we might, just so you know, I'm going to say this very early on this. We're probably going to have to have you come back on if you want to do this because I think that there's other cases that you can talk about. The first thing I want to say is going to be a little bit of levity. When you're talking about like coming in from Pennsylvania, herbie from New York, going

to Myrtle Beach, South Carolina, all I can think of in my head is like my cousin Vinnie. Oh, let me tell you something. When I got there, like I'm an Italian guy, you know, from the Northeast, right? And I don't hide that fact, right? No, matter what I'm doing. So when we got down to Myrtle Beach, I never felt so Italian. And I was wearing, I remember I was wearing all black. And I don't know if it's my cousin Biddy, but I certainly felt like a stranger in a strange land. But I have to say, I was welcome and I was embraced by local law enforcement. I think there was a concern on some people's behalf that I was coming in to file lawsuits against law enforcement and things to that nature, which I would immediately

disarm those folks and say, no, I'm just here as an advocate for Don. I'm not looking to file civil claims on her behalf against law enforcement because Don had been that frustrated at that. And the other thing about this case, Justin, is Don would have billboards throughout South Carolina. She would have her own search parties for years and years and years. She was relentless. She was the driving force behind finding Brittany. I mean, that is really something worth noting in the truth behind the whole case. At one point, Raymond Moody said, he's sitting at a McDonald's underneath the billboard that Don had for Brittany. And he says to Angel Voss, I wish you would just go the F away.

I mean, what more profound story do you need to show that what a mom and a mom relentlessly? pursuing answers the impact they could have when Raymond Moody, a sociopathic, self-described monster has that statement. That kind of reminds me of Beth Holloway. She never gave up either, you know? It's the same type. God bless her, she still doesn't have answers, you know. She doesn't ever found Natalie.

You know, I would say that. Well, they've got the answers. Did you know that? She said, they never found Natalie, but she has the answers. Right, right. I think, but part of what was part of Don. healing was finding Brittany's body and that was a piece of leverage that we wanted to that was an answer she wanted you know and and I had said that like this is the Natalie Holloway story but we found

her body you know and and certainly the Holloway story I think it's clear to everyone what happened there yeah well no Jerry uh uh jorren bernersluke I don't you might have missed this because this was a blip a couple years ago he was extradited to the U.S. I remember for a federal case, yes. To a federal case. And he sat in a room with Beth Holloway and basically the U.S. gave him a hell of a plea deal. They said, we will let your, we will let your, you know, you serve your time here. We're going to give you, I forget it was like 25 years you have or whatever you have left on your Peruvian sentence.

Your sentence here will end like a year or two prior or something like that to your Peruvian one. however, if you turn out that you're lying, you will be extradited back here to serve the entire sentence, and you have to pay her $25,000 or whatever it was, the money that he stole a wire fraud, and you're never allowed back in the U.S. So I have a feeling he will never pay that money back. He'll never come back to the U.S., but she got answers on that at least. And, I mean, she literally got the federal government to get this guy out of prison in Peru, fly him to Alabama. It was wild.

I remember. wild so you know that's ironically just I was arriving I don't know if it was the day Natalie Holloway I was leaving Aruba the day Natalie Holloway arrived I was on my honeymoon Nicole and I arrived yeah it was the day we left

the day Natalie arrived I believe and didn't stay far from the holiday in so when we got home where we had just been was all over the news I mean it was It would be really crazy. Yeah, that's got to be surreal. Well, he says about Koberger, and I'll tell you because I think I want to have this conversation real quick as you being an attorney, as you being a prosecutor, what you think on this. And then I want to get back to some of the stuff about, you know, Brittany and you representing, you know, the family.

Oh, I guess I'll give listeners a preview. I'm going to be sitting down not in the next couple weeks with Offram Labs. I don't know if you're familiar with Arthur and Labs, but they are the lab. I know who they are. Yeah, they're the IGG folks. Yeah, they, they're the ones who found that little trace bit of DNA, the touch DNA on the sheath. And I'm talking to them. And she's like, you know, we have the ability to solve so many cases.

And one of the things that they said when I, you know, on our one-on-one conversation, you know, because we're talking to, you know, have them come on, was like, you know, what did she say? She says something along the lines of you don't drive a car from 30 years ago. You don't use the same computer you used 30 years ago. why are we still using the same DNA technology from 30 years ago when we can, you know, do all of this? And, you know, she would say that they're working on, I don't, this is so far beyond my comprehension of being able to do, but they're working on something, technology, whatever, where they're going to be able to pull DNA out of the, out of literal thin air, tell who's been in a room, how long they were there, and, you know, how long ago they left and what direction they went.

And so, I mean, it's my, it's my, it's my, it's my, it's my, mind-blowing. It's so incredibly fascinating. I'm very excited for that conversation. But as a prosecutor, you know, as an attorney, what do you think about, you know, because again, you've done a lot of different cases? Where do you stand on that as far as the way the DNA is handled in some of these cases? And I know that doesn't necessarily pertain to Brittany in this case. Maybe it does, but versus like, you know, the way they're doing it now versus what we could be doing. Well, I have come up. So I was a prosecutor for the last 20 years. So there has been an evolution of DNA technology over that time.

Like touch DNA became a thing during that time. And now the advent of IgG technology, which is investigative genetic genealogy and where it's going. So it is like sci-fi technology. If Othrum Labs gets to the point where they're pulling air particles out of the air and able to get DNA, you know, great if it could help solve crimes that are unsolved. the law takes a little bit longer to catch up than science science moves quickly the law if coburger was the test case for i gg number one whether or not it could establish probable cause to support an arrest you know that was that that's really what caused coburger to plea once he heard the i gg technology leads to his DNA his DNA is then

matched, he's done. Once he knows that evidence is in, he's not going anywhere. That was the last piece of bad news as Kolberger got before he pled guilty. So now that case will stand as a North Star for that technology. And we're looking at Guthrie right now. There was DNA collected from the house. There's DNA collected from a glove two miles away that a lot of people were making hay over. And the first thing that's done, Justin, and you may know this quite well, is DNA's run through. the CODIS system, the central DNA service, indexing system, right? That has the DNA of anybody that was arrested or prosecuted for very serious crimes across the country. If you're in there, great. Not everybody's in there. Brian Colberger wasn't in there. So what happens? They take the DNA

that was recovered from the Knight Chief in Colberger, and they run that against these IGG technology, which that DNA is collected through third parties. 23 and me. Ancestry and 23 and me. I don't know that they're exactly the companies, but companies of that nature. A family member of Kohlberger was identified, tied to his dad, tied to him.

So think about that. You have DNA that five years ago, maybe even three years ago, would not have led to the identity of that killer. And Kohlberger did a really good job of getting out of there and not leaving evidence behind with the exception of that knife sheet. You know, the knife was never found, the clothing he wore that night was never found. Without that, I don't know that a case could have ever been made against Brian Colberger

or when he would have been ultimately discovered. So three years ago, we may not have had that technology. Courts are catching up, which is good news. So I want to ask you a couple opinions since we're talking about Coburger, who, by the way, when I do, so I do, you know, social media and I do, do a lot of like short things. I only refer to him. You're going to like look at me and be like whatever. I only refer to him now. You don't have to. We're talking about here is inmate 163, 2, 1.14. Like I have this. I have it. That's his, that's his number. And I've said it so much now.

I have it just mind. Like I look, you know, so go ahead. You were going to ask you a question. No, I was just saying, like, I've said it so much I have his inmate number memorized now. Well, you know, you know, they say people are a name and not a number. Colberger, you is, I think he's more robot than evil. And I don't mean to negate the evilness of his crime. I think that he is such a shell of a person. It's this cocktail of, you know, he's on the spectrum. He doesn't have a lot of human interaction at all on top of that.

Like, I know children and people on the spectrum that are emotional and have connections. Then you look at the other factors of Goldberger. He had obsessive-compulsive tendencies as well. This is someone who, I cannot imagine he is an empathetic person about a great many things. I've read that he was, had trained a dog. Sociopaths often can interact with animals, which is something that is unique and interesting in his background. But I look at him and, I watched those victims cry and plead and yell at him. And I watched him through that whole time. And there was no reaction. And it's, I don't know that it's a matter of him having a good poker face. I just think he's just that. He's vacant.

Yeah, he's empty. And his eyes are empty. And, you know, people like that exist in the world. And it's a special kind of evil because to us, it comes, their actions are evil. They're horrible. But Colberger, I just think he lacks the ability to give a shit. You know, I just think he's like, well, well, now I'm in the jail, you know, and he'll get frustrated with people harassing him or interrupting him.

But he doesn't sit there and lament his crimes. And that's, I think, a sociopathie I've seen throughout my career and in cases I've covered. So when, let's stay on Colberger for just a moment because I, you know, You've prosecuted a lot of homicide, so you've seen a lot of different angles from this. People will go on social media and say, like, well, I don't know how you could do all that in eight minutes. I do. I mean, that part, that part's no question to me. He did it.

So it could be done. And I don't, and I think that eight, ten minutes, whatever, that's plenty of time, especially when you get at least two or three of them while they're sleeping, you know. Absolutely. I think it's, I think this. But what I have always been baffled by and maybe you can shed some light, I know that we don't know the answer to this will be your opinion. for people listening. Do you have that much blood to the point? Like, I'm not trying to be graphic here,

but you have it to the point that it's literally dripping out of the walls on the outside. Each human body has, you know, what, four gallons, roughly four gallons in each of us, four to five. So you have, you know, anywhere between 15, 20 gallons of blood from people in this house that it's now potentially leak,

you know, coming out of these people. There's going to be spatter everywhere. How does he walk out of there leave only a partial footprint and the trace on the, you know, they're what I'm saying? Like, it's like there's no blood trails leaving the house. There's nothing. It's all contained in there.

He didn't leave like bloody footprints with him when he went. How is that possible? Well, first of all, Justin, if you look, that's been a question that I've heard quite often in the case. So let's look at the evidence. We know that his was the only car that approached. his was the car that was seen leaving he was the only person seen in that hallway and described so we know he did it alone in those eight minutes okay there's nothing that would suggest there was anybody else there so coleberger had to have gotten in there and gotten out of there without blood on him now there's an indication that he may have purchased a dicky um like a onesie like a work suit right like michael mire style but cover all so so he may have made that purchase. He may have had his

gloves over that, like to get out of there. He undoubtedly what he was wearing had blood on it. His car seats may have been covered in plastic. And this is somebody who has obsessive-compulsive, you know, tendency. So he scrubbed that car. He got rid of those clothes. That's what and then people are saying, well, that's impossible. Tell me anything. How else is it done? That's the car he was driving. He's the one that was there. It's his DNA. It was his cell phone pinging. You know, like somehow he did it. The only explanation was he's wearing a coverall and he cleaned

anything that got in the car or had plastic everywhere. And I agree with that. I agree with that. I guess what I'm asking is how do you go from the room where you just killed two young girls, two young women, down the stairs to the other room and not leave bloody footprints, even with coveralls? Well, it just would have had to have been that he didn't step in their blood. He was over them in a way that that blood didn't even get to the floor. He was already out of there. And he moved back. I mean, and I've seen it, you know, I can't say I've seen, and I've certainly had blood

scenes like you wouldn't believe, like up to your ankles kind of stuff, right? But the situation is the bloodletting event is the stabbing. Okay. You're going to have spatter. But that blood transfer where those beautiful young women lie in that bed and their blood seeped out, okay? At that point, it's going to pull onto the floor. That's where you're going to see footprints in the blood. Kohlberger was long out of that room at that point.

So a possible explanation is it just didn't pull on the floor. What did you think about them tearing the house down before the trial? I was, I thought that both sides had had ample opportunity to visit that scene, laser map that scene, videotape that scene. The key with those scenes, really, Justin, is are you able to recreate that in a courtroom? Or are you going to have to take a jury to an actual crime scene? It is extremely rare that a jury would have to go to a crime scene. we as prosecutors and as defense attorneys have to recreate that in the courtroom as best we can. I think it was a very simple building. It was hallways. It was stairs. Everything was pretty linear. I was okay with the prosecution's ability to have recreated. And they had an actual model built of the property, too. So I wasn't worried about their ability to prove the case absent the actual building. I know a lot of people were concerned. earned, but I do also think that that building stood as a stark reminder to everybody in that

town. I mean, you know, and I get it. I get it that people were upset. It came down, but I think the case could have been well prosecuted without it. And the defense wouldn't have been prejudiced. They had the unique opportunity to go there in the moments after, before the crime scene was released and then repeatedly until it was torn down. I think for a lot of people, you know, when you back to when all that happened, you know, most of us, I feel like I have a little bit more understanding of the legal system than probably most people, but for a lot, you know, who aren't lawyers or who aren't part of that. You do, Justin, and you have a better understanding than some lawyers.

Well, okay, well, thank you for that. I'm surprised. But, you know, I think we were all coming out right off of Alex Murdoch, right after that, Alec Murdo, because they sent the jury out to that crime scene. They sent the jury out to that house. I'm like, well, what do they need to bring the bug out to this? Right. So now the thing about the Murdoch crime scene is down at the kennels, it was a little bit difficult to understand or conceptualize that scene. You had to know where it was in relation to the house.

Okay. There was nothing typical about the crime scene with Murdo. You had to know where the guns were placed. You had to know where Paul and where Maggie's body fell. Remember, there were two guns used in that scene. right so the prosecution had a theory Alex shot Paul first then Maggie comes running he and he was below Paul um you know and and it was either a really short person or human beings can actually crouch and shoot somebody so um that scene was in a sense and I don't mean this may be

controversial but the Murdoch scene from a presentation standpoint was more complicated to recreate than the Kohlberger scene. I think that that makes sense because you're talking about a lot of property. You know, you're talking about contained into a house, very weird shaped house

with, you know, the Koeberger crime scene, but it's all contained in a house. When you're looking at the Murdoch, you're looking at a large spread of property. That, you know, with the house, the kennel.

How many acres was Mozel? I think it was almost thousands of acres. I mean, it was massive. And I, but here's the thing. I, would love to have taken, I would prefer that the Coburger house didn't come down. So let me, let me clarify that because there is a component to taking the jury to a scene and taking the jury out to Moselle, for example, on Murdo. Think about it. You're there with Alec Murdo. You're

on Moselle looking at him. And if you went to the Coburger crime scene, you'd be there with Colberger and that I would think it would create such a powerful sense and a feeling of dread that juries remember how they feel. You know, they remember much of what they hear, but they do not forget what they feel. And to be at that scene with Colberger or Alec Murdaugh has to be powerful. You know, it's very, very different, obviously, a whole thing, but I can, you know, I've never been to a crime scene like this, but I would imagine, so I've been to two different concentration camps. I've been to Dachau and I've been to Matthausen.

And it's weird when you walk into a place like that, and I would imagine this is true of crime scenes too, you might be able to attest to this. Especially if it's not something you're used to, you feel the weight. Like, I remember being in Matthausen, and it was a beautiful day. But when you walked in, it was like,

I remember feeling very gray. You didn't hear birds chirping. You didn't hear anything. It just was this very, very... There are the hormones that hang in the air. Yes. It's just a debt, like, and there is a sadness when you're there. You know, I very recently went back.

We were filming a documentary on one of my cases, and we went back to the crime scene. And I got out of the car. I walked up and approached the house, and it hit me. And it had been many, many years. And some of the scene was overgrown, and it hit me. And because I know what happened there. Not only do I know what happened. I know how what happened.

And I know, and it hangs over that property. It's just in the air. And you're right. A jury would feel that. And I'd imagine, you know, Gettysburg, I don't live too far from Gettysburg, it feels the same way. You know, where so many, so much death, so much suffering, so much pain, just like the concentration camps, it leaves a generational imprint. And I think it's powerful to take juries there, but it's a separate question to say, yeah, it's preferred, but do I think it would have hindered the prosecution? No. Well, that's what's important then.

And to answer your question, so Moselle, the entire state was between 1,700, and 1,770 acres. The house itself was 5,275 square feet, but sat on a smaller 21 to 48 acre track. So even if you took away the 1700 acres and you just looked at the minimum, a possible 21 acre tract, that is still a huge tract of land at 21 acres. It's still massive. It's massive. It's massive. And, you know, and a lot of death there. Their housekeeper died there, too. You know, she fell, allegedly fell down the steps. So that is a place where, again, I think it was powerful to take the jury there. I think that it's hard to recreate that scope of property with photographs. Just to hear that number. I mean, that's the acreages. That's a ton of land. There's a ton of land. And, you know, again, even if you you take away the fact that the 1700s, you know, you know, acres and just again, look at where

the house sits, at its minimum, possibly 21. That's 21 acres is, is a lot of land. Right. For like your, for your like living quarters. And, and that's where the Murdaws lived and played. That's where they hunted. They had all their guns there. I mean, it was just, it was, like an amusement park for people into the things they were into, ATVs, hunting, boozing, you know, all that stuff. And, yeah, they, it was. And there's plenty of stories coming out of it, too. So, and anyways, yeah, he's appealing right now, I think, the murder charge. He is.

So they're arguing a couple of things. They're arguing that the jury, so the woman that was in charge of the jury had been had been criminally prosecuted for making an unlawful statement. She wrote a book. So that is one of Dick Harpulian, who represents Alec Murdo, who's an interesting guy in and of himself, fine attorney, flying attorney. He's arguing that Alec did not get a fair shake because this jury, the woman in charge of the jury made a statement discrediting the defense and that they didn't get a fair shake. So that is, it's a significant issue. I don't think it's going to carry the

day. Yeah, you know, I realize that people have these feelings because, you know, even, even the guilty people, you know, need an attorney. Somebody's got to represent him. But I like Dicker. He's very entertaining to watch. I think he's a good attorney. And I think he'd need like a state senator too, like a state. Well, he was a state senator.

And he was a prosecutor too. I mean, like Harpulian is, I mean, everybody in that case was a character, you know. And believe me, it wasn't lost on me when we were dealing with Drexel and down in South Carolina. Like, you know, that is the very same place that the Murdoz ran a significant piece of that state. So it was not lost on me. And, but again, Harpoolian and so many people, Uncle Eddie and all the people in the Murdoz circle, I mean, that's why there's a hundred documentaries and movies and everything else. This is just a purview into multi-generations of a

family that was so powerful, so powerful and wealthy. But it shows you how in just a couple of years, who can all come apart. They were almost like, you know, for lack of a better term, they were almost like, you know, an organized crime family for a long time, you know, like the mafia to a degree, just in that small part of South Carolina, you know, it was funny to me with the Murdox

because I remember this. For them to do the trial, they had to take Alex like grandfather's photo off the wall in the courtroom. Think about that. Think about that. Like I said, this guy did a header from the top of the courthouse down.

He gets convicted. Like, when they're taking your granddaddy's picture off the courthouse walls. Like, as a prosecutor, I'd be thinking, are we going to get a fair shake here? You know, and, and, uh, is,

Trayton Waters was the prosecutor. I always said, if we mentioned the defense attorney, we got to mention the prosecutor also did it. And he did great do. He was fantastic. And when you're sitting in a courtroom and you're bringing a case where you know this family's gotten away with murder and a lot of other stuff over, over a hundred years in that.

community. I give them a lot of credit for bringing it, taking that picture down. It's still not back up, by the way. And suing that case, I worked in a courthouse. In northeastern Pennsylvania, there was a time where they would refer, and I hate to drag this up, but they would call our courthouse the most corrupt courthouse in America. It was where the Kids for Cash scandal happened. And I was there. I know there were a lot of good people there, despite something very dark that happened there. But I promise you, even though you clearly are on the right side of the law as a prosecutor, to be in a place that is corrupt is difficult. And sometimes you're looking over your shoulder. And I could imagine that Creighton Waters and the attorneys that brought

the civil claims against Alec Murdof felt the same way. Yeah, I, you know, when you say that, makes me think, I don't know if you've seen any of this, but there's a case out of Oklahoma in Payne County Stillwater, Oklahoma, Jesse Mac Butler. Are you familiar with this one? I'm not. Oh, let me talk to you about this for a moment then. And eventually when everything's done, I think I'm going to possibly have some of the family members on, possibly even one of the victims, you know, it's whatever they're comfortable

with. Basically, Jesse Mac Butler, let me give you a little bit of background on this guy. I think he's 18 now that started when he was 17, got accused of rape and strangulation of two young, young girls. You know, I think they were both 16 at the time. You know, they were supposed to be like intimate partner violence kind of stuff. Well, basically, it gets reported. He gets arrested.

Oh, I should probably back up. Stillwater, Oklahoma is where Oklahoma State University is. It's the same town, all right? A college town. Jesse Mac Butler is the son of Mac Butler, who used to be the head of football operations for OSU. let me give you that information too okay um and he's been i think he was at louisiana at one point things like that well jesse ends up getting arrested for this kind of stuff um they find on his phone

evidence of strangulation so what he did for one of these girls is he strangled her till she went unconscious then decided he wanted to record it so woke her back up and did it again so he could record it okay this is like some sadistic really sadistic kind of stuff so they find all of this. They decide, okay, we're going to try you as an adult for these crimes you're facing like 70-something years. Fast forward, he gets arrested. Tommy's friends with the bail bonds woman who tips off the fact that he's about to be arrested. Okay, not the police. The woman tips him off. And he gets arrested. Well, he goes to court. They're ready to do this whole thing to give him these 76 years. All of a sudden, it gets reduced to a plea deal.

He's got like 70, I forget what it's, but like it's community service only, like 70 hours of community service. That is it. I remember, so I'm thinking back, I've seen the video of him being arrested. They go to the front door and take him. There's probably me that you saw. Get out. I got it first. Oh, go.

So I saw that video and mom was right there when they came in. And look, everybody's got a mom. I get it. But when mom is, so he. here's the problem. So ultimately what happened is he was prosecuted as a juvenile. Is that what happened? Originally he was going to be prosecuted as an adult because of the nature of the crime,

but then they came back in and changed, like changed it all. I mean, it's very weird because normally like this happened out. Was it did a judge change? So one of the major issues, and as a prosecutor, one of the most difficult things you have to do. Like I've prosecuted juveniles as a. adults for murder. Now, I don't lose sleep over these kids. They're not kids. These were adult crimes. These were individuals who were not amenable to juvenile rehabilitation. Okay. So, but the first fight you have in those situations is their attorneys try to get the case

kicked back down to juvenile court. So if what happened in Oklahoma was they had a psychiatrist testify and say, this is an individual with a proclivity because he has some psychological condition through treatment may be able to get better. Again, I'm not saying I agree with this. I'm saying this may have carried the day and ultimately led to him being deemed a juvenile. However, if it was done through political connections, I think you cannot understate the power of people like that family

who's running football at OSU or the Murdoz and their ability to influence, like you said, it's like the godfather. It's like the godfather if Don Corleone was the district attorney. It's like the Godfather. If you're running football at OSU, you are the head of a major employer in town. You control, you have a lot of power. Especially in small town. Right.

And courts and everybody else could cower to your power. And that's the concern. That's the fear. And this, so ultimately what happened with this case in Oklahoma? Well, I mean, it's ultimately, once he hits 19 years old, if he's completed all the requirements, it's completely expunged. gone from his record. No, no sex offender registered, nothing. But here's, here's, here, my opinion is, and I didn't like the look, I'll be honest, I saw that video, I remember it, he was wearing a blue shirt, if I'm not mistaken. I didn't like the look

of this kid at all. I promise you this, he gets out at 19, you'll be seeing him again. Well, he's, he's out now, he just got to lay low. But yeah, he's, he, next time he's going to murder somebody, because what is the statistic like 70, like, what goes up like 700%? once somebody lays their hands around your neck, there's a 700% more likely chance they're going to kill you. So, yeah, with this, but this guy, so, I mean, the corruption goes deep in this county. You know, we've also learned that actually,

and I haven't, because I've been so entrenched with the Epstein files lately that's probably when I'm recording this, but like, I haven't had a chance to do this update, but there's another guy who got arrested for raping young girls. He gets out on a bond. It gets a job where he rapes another girl. gets back out, just got arrested again for guess what. And there's no curing. There's no cure. I'm sorry.

No, there's not. And this is my professional opinion. There's no curing this. So find a way to, you know, how many, I've sent a lot of people to jail. I've sent a lot of people back to jail for those kinds of crimes. Those downright dangerous proclivities do not go away. I have a case recently that I'm familiar with and had worked on, where a young boy was molested as a child by a family member. That family member is now 79 years old. This incident occurred 20 plus years ago. Guess what he had on his computer at that age,

at the ripe age of almost... I mean, I get C-Sam. Yep, he had C-Sam. And it's like, do you think that proclivity knows he's now 80? I mean, there's just that is what this person is into. They have acted out on a child. They're continuing to view that material. It just, if there is a case, it just doesn't go away.

And it doesn't go away with old age. It doesn't go away with intense rehabilitation. We need to find creative ways. And Megan's Law is certainly one of them to ensure. You know, I used to say, and I got into a big Megan's Law constitutional fight one time, and somebody was arguing it's unconstitutional. I said, we had a dog in the neighborhood that bit one of the kids. Okay, this true story.

That dog never bit another kid. The dog was chained by his dog house because all the kids knew not to go near the dog. And that's the Megan's law. Like basically, it's like it is a warning to anybody. You need to be careful here, tread lightly here. you know, and I'm not likening people to dogs. I'm just saying people like that you can like your dogs. You adapt, you adapt your behavior to protect yourself. That's what the lesson of Megan's law is. And it's not perfect. Believe me, it's not perfect. And it can't stop someone from acting out,

but it can allow for the would-be victims of the world to understand who you're dealing with. And to give you just a little bit of an idea, too, with this particular thing with Oklahoma, specifically, they had a prosecutor, I believe it's a prosecutor, part of the DA's office. I think he's like an assistant or associate whatever. He gets arrested for, I think, C. Sam, like a lot of it and still has not gone to trial at all. Like, it's been like three or four years. They're just kind of, like, you know, trial date set. But there's a Oklahoma representative how I've been kind of working. with, his name is Justin J.J. Humphrey. This guy's great. He's one of the only probably non-corrupt

politicians apparently in Oklahoma. And so he's like put in like a whole, you know, petition for grand jury, you know, to basically call all these people out on it and get the stages. I need to kind of touch base with him soon. But, you know, he found so much corruption in like this county and others when it comes to them protecting this kind of stuff. I mean, and you know, look at what's going on right now with Jeffrey Epstein. As we're recorded, so people know what day this was recorded, Prince Andrew was just former Prince Andrew was just arrested this morning. Like, the highest

I was looking at, I was looking at, what are his charges? I'm trying to put it together because I know we're going to talk about it. Let's talk about it. I mean, there is a history of powerful people covering up their sexual secrets and dangerous proclivities. It's just the way it is.

I mean, that's the way. And I think what Epstein has revealed is number one, the existence of this powerful elite. You know, if you didn't know that there are people in this world that are very wealthy, very powerful, that get away with a lot of stuff, you know now. And they all communicate and, you know, that is how things at the billion dollar level get done in many, many aspects. And it is eye-opening. Just the conditions Epstein had. There was much, but you know what? You're doing Epstein a disservice if you remain solely focused on the component of his life that had to do with trafficking women.

There's another aspect. There's the Iran-Contra stuff here, potentially, whether or not he was an- Supreme Court justices, like him being involved in Kavanaugh's hearing, him being involved. And there was something else I saw this morning that what he was, you know, he had to, yeah, the thing. about is people, you're exactly right and people will hear the the sexual deviant side of Epstein and obviously that's horrific. I think

the UN said that with what the DOJ has released up to this point, which is a three and a half million documents. The UN as of the other day, yesterday I think actually today, identified 1,200 victims so far,

which is a mind-boggling number of people which is what, you know, people, you know, they came out yesterday and said that this is a human rights, this could potentially have human rights, you know, law violations and people will immediately jump. Well, of course it is. They violate it. But, like, no, there's a legal definition to this.

And he legal, by the legal definition, he might have violated human rights laws with the trafficking, the network, everything. But yeah, you know, you look at, like you said, Prince, you know, the things that he had going on with Prince Andrew. Prince Andrew did not get, or former Prince Andrew, did not get arrested for what he did, allegedly, to Virginia Guffrey.

he got arrested for sharing top secret classified British information in the position that he was in. Now, you're an attorney and I'm not a stupid person. They arrested him on that. As we speak, they are searching royal properties. As we record this, they are right now searching Sandringham and I forget the other estate, but they're searching a couple of these. We know that they're going for more information. We know what they're going for.

So if we see charges, you know, some sort of, you know, child sex crimes or child trafficking charges, that won't surprise anybody because they get this to hold him. And by the way, they are holding him. He's in question. They've not released him. He's in custody. If they... He's in a cell. Yeah, he's in a cell.

I also saw this right before we got on. This is the first time in 400 years a member of the British royal family has been arrested. So, you know, it's insane. And then the king, I've never really been a fan of Charles, but I feel like Charles is handling this right. Like, hey, you know, and they didn't notify Buckingham Palace beforehand either. Charles found out with everybody else, essentially. Well, and the concern is, look, they're under no obligation to do that.

The concern is that evidence could be destroyed. He could take flight. These are, this is someone with access to a tremendous amount of money, resources. So giving them a heads up could have resulted in losing them all together. So yeah, absolutely. And you know, the thing is it's not a, it's not an overly secretive fact that Charles is not a fan of Andrew. So I don't think right. He's got, you know, and, and I think that with, with mommy gone, there's nobody there to bail him out anymore. So the queen. And I think, I think when you look at the global reach that Epstein had, you know, Andrew, I mean, he was into the royals, into weapons and munitions and, uh, espion. and academia. I mean, there was nowhere entertainment, music. I mean, there's nowhere Epstein's reach didn't,

didn't, Epstein's hands didn't reach. That's, it's insane. And you watched, like, I watched the, I don't know if you had a chance to watch Steve Bannon's interview with Jeffrey Epstein. I think Bannon is working on a documentary about Epstein now, and Bannon was, by accounts of the record, pretty close with the guy and talking about, man,

there, his image going there with us. But I could tell you this. What jumped out at me watching those interviews was how unassuming Jeffrey Epstein was and how disarming he was and talking. He had a very sing-song way of breaking down complicated financial matters and kind of blowing off the notion that he was as powerful as he was or had the influence he was. And you know the popular clip was somebody or banon asked him are you the devil do you think you're the devil and he was so dismissive of that question it was like it's almost like he didn't hear it he was like well why would you ask me that you know that was an interview banon called him banon called him god apparently and then and then banon made a comment i'm looking for a photos i want to show you something if i can

find it um then banon apparently made a comment uh the other day he said well i was just really it's like everybody else you know everybody else is is you know distance trying to distance and so I really you know I just really kind of got this close to him you know because I was going to make a documentary and exposed I'm like no you weren't dude like no you weren't we're not who knows bannon ban is the people that I think everyone is kind of most um you don't like don't sleep on banon is basically what I'm saying I was most surprised like the correspondence between he and Epstein and Deepak Chopra for example like yeah there's the guy who and I've certainly read some of Deepak Chopra's books. I've listened to some of his lectures and there's an email between he and Epstein

where Deepak Chopra says to Jeffrey Epstein in an email, I wonder if my body is eternal. It's like, well, you're the guy. He should be, he should be asking you that. Why are you asking Epstein that question? People would just think out loud with Epstein. They would tell him their intimate secrets and their fears. Who do you do that to? Who is somebody you say, those things to. Someone who you trust, someone who invites that. You don't just walk up to a stranger on the street and provide that kind of information. So there is something about Epstein that really, really enured himself not only into those circles, but he became the guy that everybody wanted to be with. I'm going to show you something real quick. And if you're,

if you're listening to this, I'll describe it. So this was a post that I did. I came across this. is a post that I did. All right. And I know it's kind of hard to see because I just pulled up my Instagram post on this, but in this photo, in the center in the black, that is Jeffrey Epstein. On the right, in the brown jacket, which he still wears today in recent photos, is Steve Bannon. And on the left in the green shirt is Harvard, you know, Dr. Martin Noak, who's in the files a lot as well. This is at the center for like evolutionary development. I forget what it's called. faculty, sorry, like the program that Epstein gave six and a half million dollars to help start, that he had an office in this building at Harvard, okay? And I kind of had AI because I am,

I am not a mathematician by any stretch, but I had AI, like, try to decipher some of the math on the board. And, you know, like, what is this? And basically, this is a room where, like, I understand why Epstein and Nowak are together. I understand why Epstein and Bannon are together. Why Bannon and no ACR together is where it gets me. But apparently what this type of math is used for, what this is basically how the general population works. So this could be tied to a couple ways. This could be tied to his fascination with eugenics

and this perfect race thing that he had. Or on the side of ban on the side of ban on it, there are things like how do we replace loyalty with expertise? You know, how do we get rid of expertise? You know, it's things like that, which when you look at the time that this was taken, this was during Trump's campaign or right after. So then you have questions like, okay, well, why is he doing this?

And then why is Trump's top advisor when Trump has no, and I'm not trying to get into anything political here, but it just you start to open up a lot of question. Why is his top advisor sitting here with Epstein when Trump has allegedly thrown this guy out of Mar-a-Lago has nothing to do with him anymore? Either this guy's gone rogue and Trump doesn't know that this is happening or he does know when it's a go-between.

So I think that this photo, this photo, you know, asks more questions than it answers, but I think it's very underestimated as what's going on here and how really entwined because now you have Epstein sitting here with Harvard doctors, with, you know, the man who's closest to the present at the time this photo was taken. And it's just really insane how entangled he became in everything. Yeah. And I think it just goes to show you if he's not directly tied to something. somebody, there's less than six degrees of separation. So if Trump, if President Trump disavowed

Epstein as he says that, hey, we had a disconnect. It was prior to him even being arrested. It was over some personnel issue, and a personal issue as well, then he's still in your orbit. He's still, you know, and that's not an indictment of President Trump. It's just like Epstein is just in this realm. And he's just around this. Like, if you can't have Trump, well, he'll have the next best thing. You'll have banned him. Like, that's just the kind of. And again, the influence is there.

If he can't whisper in the president's here, certainly he could have somebody do it for him. And that's the kind of thing. Like Epstein is three million documents. It doesn't appear that there are any more coming. What people underestimate, too, is when you're looking at that many documents, it's not so much what one. document says. It's what document 1000 says and reveals about documents 70,000 and what it reveals about document 700,000. It's the web that needs to be, the connections that need to be made. You know, it's one thing, and I've had investigations where we've had 30 and 40,000 pages of

material. It's never enough just to read the material. You have to appreciate what one interview does and what it means the significance it can have on another. On Epstein, it is an exponentially, entirely different level with the volume, the code they may speak in, the levels, the people that he's talking to and the influence and reach they have. It's just, it will take years and teams going through this stuff to fully digest what it means. So, you know, and I'll say something else too. If you don't want me asking, how old are you, Jared? I'm 48. Now you have to say I don't look 40. You don't look 48. I'm going to be I'm going to be 44 this year so we're not that far off, okay?

You don't look 44, Justin. Well, thank you. I appreciate it. You know, so talking about the sphere's influence with Epstein, one thing, let me shift into Les Wexner for a moment. Okay, so Les Wexner for listeners who might not know he is, he is Victoria's Secret. He is the limited. He is the limited to he is Bathurst. and body works. He is Abercrombie and Fitch. He is all of those things. And when you and I were kids or young teenagers, young adults, okay, and I did this video the other day, the entire culture of the way girls and women looked was directly a result of Jeffrey Epstein. And a lot of people don't like hearing it. They say they don't want men talking about it. I'm going to talk about it anyways because I don't care what they want. I think it's important to be said. So like if you remember

like Britney Spears back then, the very incredibly lower, I mean, incredibly low-ized ring, you know, jeans, thong sticking up above the, you know, the hip bones, you know, belly shirts, the whole look, you know, even down to, you know, shaving certain areas because they like, you know, that look. All of that, they were able to groom an entire generation of pre-teens and teens and young women. And like our entire generation was groomed by this guy. Well, and I think if you look at it this way, too, where Wexner falls. into this is he was one of the ruses that Epstein would use is that he would promise European young women the opportunity to be a model. And he would use his relationship with Lex Wexner

as a badge of honor. And this wasn't just a relationship. I mean, Justin, he gave him a power. Power of attorney over Lex Wexner's. Like, one of the things that people often ask me, or they'll hear this. They're like, We don't even know where Epstein's money came from. But when you hear that, the next one is if anybody has an inkling, they're like, oh, no, it came from the guy that ran Victoria's Secret. And that's true. A major port and the townhouse in New York came from Wexner, too. By the way, yeah, the mansion in New York, I'm going to call it, townhouse really oversimplified it. You're right.

The mansion in New York, which I did a detail. That house has its own Wikipedia page, not even. because of Epstein. It was built by the Strauss family who, um, who is Macy's, you know, and, you know, the, um, I just, I think is Idas, I think is Idas Strauss died on the Titanic. And their son like built this house. I don't think he ever lived in it. And it was like 21 or 26,000 square feet. I don't know. I don't know how big a block in Manhattan is, but I know it takes up a big piece. Expanded this house to like 50,000. 1,000 square feet.

Well, you could do that when you get the house for free. Yeah, well, I say Les Wexner bought this house, like in the late, mid-to-late 80s for like $13.5 million back then. At the time he gifted it to Epstein, or that I don't say gifted it. I'm going to say it was transferred to Epstein for $0, whatever you want to call that. I call it gifting. It was worth about $20, $21 million. And I think at its time of whatever at its height, it's been worth like $50 million.

about. And it's like the largest private residence in all in New York City. And he gave, like, who, like, man, look, I was, you want to give me a house just because you didn't know anything? And the thing is he just did this thing with Congress where he doesn't know anything. He was deceived. He was just a full. Yesterday. Yesterday. And the thing about it, I'm going to have to end up doing this episode next week because of all the relevant stuff we're talking about. But that's fine. But the thing about it is that this. This, is a man. Les Wexter is not a stupid man.

Like him to sit here and say he knows nothing. I'm not going to be, you know, accuse anybody of anything because I'm not. But to sit here and say that he knew absolutely nothing that he was bamboozled by Jeffrey Epstein when you are one of the most successful American businessman out there.

I just, I father very a baby in the woods. Yeah. You know, it's like, look, and I get it. The guy's trying to throw off the sandbags and then he tied Epstein. But look at the papers, the documentation, the emails, they tell a very different story. So it's like, you know, don't believe you're lying eyes, okay? And I don't, and again, that's not to say that Lex Wexner did. There's a claim, by the way, that Epstein and Galane Maxwell assaulted someone at Wexner's

property at one point. And now, I'm talking vast property. I don't know that Wexner was present, but certainly there was his own security, Wexner's own security detail became involved in that incident. That's what's being reported as well. So, you know, you have a difficult time saying your head was in the sand. There's a deliberate ignorance, you know, that is not reasonable or logical and quite honestly isn't lawful at some point. You have a responsibility when you're a billionaire and you employ all these people and you have certain people around you to keep your eyes open and make sure you're not surrounding yourself or legit the other thing he did was he legitimized epstein he helped empower epstein he helped give epstein the ruse to bring these women in whether it was intentional or not that will again it was his badge of honor

well and you know too and one thing let's let's talk about this for a moment like if you and i are going to go hang out i'm not going to like go vet you right if we're going to grab a beer or whatever I'm not going to go vet you. When you're talking to people at this level, like the Sultan, you know, Sultan Ahmed bin Suleyam, Les Wexner,

Prince Andrew, who else, you know, I mean, Donald Trump, Bill Clinton, there are pictures of him in the Clinton era White House at the podium,

you know, that's the photo that's out there. Like these aren't people that just go casually hang out with somebody. You are vetted before you're brought into this world of them. And I saw a picture this morning right before we got on of Les Wexner's compound. It is, it is exactly that. It is a mammoth compound with a lot of security, a lot of tunnels, cameras, like the whole nine. It's beautiful properties. I'm sure you can imagine.

You said it. Do you think he vets his security people or you think he hires people off the secretary? Exactly. So, so you're not going to, so you're not going to vet. You're telling me Les Wexner that you did not vet the man who you just gave power of attorney over your entire fortune. Like, you know, I get, like I said, it's, it's, it's difficult. Now, look, back. I get what he's trying to do, but good luck. Well, here's the thing. He's 88. He only has to stick it out long enough. That's true. That's true. So, you know, that's kind of what's going on. And the way that this administration's dragging its feet, he probably can do that or, you know, the stress alone.

But it's, uh, it's, that's what people need to understand is that when you're talking about people like these people live in a way that you and I can't even imagine. Like they're the level of, of opulence and I can imagine it. I can't, I'm probably never going to live that. Yeah, but I can certainly, like, and it, if this served to confirm what I suspected might have been true. Yeah. And I think it's done that for a lot of people.

I mean, Les Wexner basically said yesterday, I have no recollection of the events in question. You know, that's kind of like what his, yes, yes, what his, what his take was on it. But I find, I think that this whole thing with F scene is going to be very interesting to watch unfold. And I agree with you. And I'm glad you brought that up because it goes so much further than just trafficking. Like, you know, if you have Andrew. talking, I mean, there was one thing where they were talking about, it was like a wag the dog scenario. I don't know if you saw this one where Steve Bannon and him were trying to distract.

I think it was at the time, I don't even know what was going on in the world from the emails, but basically, Epstein goes, well, basically you just start a foreign conflict and it'll take the titching off of everything else. He's, he's, right. And it's, he's like the Forrest Gump of, like, criminals. Like, he's everywhere, every major event, he's there. and he's helping to direct it or having some influence over it. That's really like that's what this is revealed too.

As shocking is some of the names and some of what's been implicated here, the level of involvement in worldwide events and where that goes. And then I think it was Benjamin Netanyahu who released or reposted an article whether or not he was intelligence for in the Middle East and things of that nature. Let him a thought. This is presidents of other nations or prime ministers of other nations and royalty, you know, talking about Jeffrey Epstein, implicating Jeffrey Epstein. And he's, yeah, and it's interesting too.

And I'm going to catch flack for this and it is what it is. But, you know, Jeffrey Epstein is clearly a very, was, you know, clearly a very, gifted manipulator. He was good and he was obviously narcissistic and, you know, unfortunately I have my fair share of experience with narcissistic people and they are likeable. And you watch some things with Jeffrey Epstein and I don't misconstrue what I'm about to say here. He was likable.

You know, when you know what he did. So was Ted Bundy. So were many of the killers I prosecuted. There is a charm. And again, that is part of social. That's how they get there. with, and I'm not, I certainly don't have a PhD and can discuss Robert Hare's diagnosis of narcissism and sociopathic behavior, but the reality is he conducted an investigation of inmates

and criminals, and he determined one of the factors is there's this charm. There's this, and it's like a pamphlet-level knowledge of certain things where one thing about episode, Not only was he charming, he was intelligent when it came to money. So that is a lethal combination. Oftentimes, you'll find sociopaths can be charming and they can con you and say, I know about money or I know about this, but there's no depth to the knowledge. The thing about Epstein that makes him a double threat, if not a triple threat, because then he's an attractive guy too. He wasn't an ugly person. No, he wasn't.

You know, so that's another thing. People were disarmed by his good looks. his influence, his power, and then his knowledge of money. Because let me tell you something, whether it's arms dealing, drugs dealing, sexual trafficking, every criminal at that level has one major problem. It's moving money. And all of it is for money. And Epstein, as it appears, is the guy who knew how to move money.

You got a hide-in. When you're that guy, you got a lot of power. And everybody needs you around. and you got a lot of secrets on people. That, I think, is where this is going to bear out. You know, I sit here and I think about this, and I don't think that all of these billionaires, now that Epstein's gone,

are just satisfied with their supply of whatever cut off. I kind of feel like this has to be a mafia-type scenario where, hey, the head of the family goes to prison. There's a new head of the family. And the question is where and who is at this point in time. Yeah, I mean, who knows? You know, you're saying is somebody sitting in the shoes of Jeffrey Epstein now? Well, I don't do a degree.

It's hard. Somebody's got to be getting this stuff done. You know, those needs to move money don't go away. And I think, I think one of the goals of prosecuting or investigating these cases is it aids you in going. forward and getting to the top sooner. You know, you mentioned the mafia. Like there were these families, you know, and they used RICO to prosecute the five families in New York. And what led to the downfall of the mafia, although it took time, was a meeting in Appalachia, right? They all met in Appalachia and they were identified. The organization was defined. And that model was used to prosecute

the mafia for Rico. Rudy Giuliani, you know, he's not the most popular guy now, but he was the first to use Rico back then, though. And it was used to take apart and dismantle the mafia for years because they understood the structure. They understood how they exerted influence and racketeered. They understood how someone can be at the top and carry out crimes at the bottom. So if there's any good that could come out of the Epstein case. And if there is somebody that takes his place, there may be now a better understanding of how this has happened. I, for the record, I find like all the mock you stuff very fascinating. Like, I think everybody does, right? But it's, it's just, it's one of those things. But I, you know, are they really, though? I mean,

that they were taken down, but don't, I mean, they still operate pretty successfully. They've just they've just, you know, entangled themselves in a lot more legitimate operations. Well, I think so. I think for the most part, I'm sure there's still mafia. Like, I am in a place where the mafia, we had a, for a small area here. Pennsylvania, yeah, it's your family here. So our area, and it's no secret. So if you've ever seen the movie The Irishman, Joe Pesci played Russell Buffalino. So Russell Buffalino hailed from Pittston, Pennsylvania, which is exactly where I'm from.

And he's still quite revered here by a lot of people. And, but he's long past. But the reality is this was a small town. This was a small community to have its own mafia family with national influence. I don't know that I've ever really talked about these guys publicly. But the reality is they had tremendous influence through the 50s, 60s, 70s and into the early 80s. But for the most part, their influence has waned. As a prosecutor, I know that it's waned as well.

It's still fascinating. and yeah, so it's, yeah, I haven't seen that. It's quite romanticized. My experience is very much. I've gotten to know, and I know some of these guys, they're usually broke and never happy. So I don't know why that is. Well, it's one of those things where, you know, it trickles.

You've got to everything's, you know, you've got to pay everything up the ladder. So what are you left with at the end? You know, the head, the head lives real well. You know, I think that the soprano, I mean, it's always been romanticized. Godfather romanticized it. You know, I suppose. If you're ranked as the top show of all time. If you watch Tony Soprano, and I'm a fan of the Sopranos.

I love Gandal Fiena. I love it. But he's never happy. And if he's happy, watch, do this experiment, Justin. If Tony Soprano is happy, there is tragedy around the corner. Like literally that night. Every time he sits down to have dinner with his family, there's always just chaos going on in the background. Like something is going on.

I think Christopher and Polly were lost in the woods at one point. He has a woman threatening to kill herself at one point. All the while, he's trying to have dinner with his family. Like, it's not a great way to navigate the world. I remember one scene where he's sitting in, you know, Dr. Melfi's office. And she's like, you know, talking about your childhood and like a happy memory. And it's talking about when his like dad falls down and like they're all laughing at he got her. That is the only memory he has is he laughed because his mother laughed when it's the only time he ever saw his mother laugh.

was when his dad fell, which is such a telling story. Yeah, I think that that summarizes everything. The downfall of your father. Like, that's my God. I mean, this show is so great. Oh. If you're, if you haven't watched The Sopranos, just go, go watch it. It's still a phenomenal show.

I know we were going to talk about Britain Drexel, but we've kind of been all over the place with us today. And I think that's been a great conversation, though, because I think it gives people a lot of insight into things. What else? You got a book coming out? Yes. So I wrote a book. I had always wanted to write a book.

I just didn't know. I wanted to write a fiction book, and I have a lot of them started. But I sat down. I retired from being a prosecutor and was doing this legal analysis stuff. And I get, you know, I'm on 2020. I've been on there. Good Morning America. A lot of documentaries.

And I love it. I love telling the stories of these cases. And I always get excited when I'm asked to do a show like, this, Justin. I still very much enjoy this. And I wanted to do something that took, I was invited to a keynote speaking school because I get invited to speak and lecture with folks. And when I was at this two-day seminar, they said, you need to write down your story. You need to write down about your cases. And that's kind of what started this book. And I was the youngest of four boys. And we were raised by my mom who lost, We lost our dad when I was very young.

My dad had cancer and passed despite trying to fight it. And my mom raised us, these Italian boys, on her own, became like an accomplished business woman. And we used to tease her. We'd be like, Mom, how are we ever going to repay you for what you did for us? And she used to always say, when you see a mother who needs help, you help her and you do it for free. And as I was writing my cases, there was a theme.

There were moms I had to fight for throughout my career. So the book I wrote is called Mother's Murders and Motivation. It's about my mom and five cases in my life where a mother was murdered. One, a mother murdered her child. One a mother's child was murdered. And then Britney Drexel. And then the Hugo Salinsky case, which is the serial killer case I was referencing before. And there was a mom whose son was killed in that case.

And really, that's what the book is about. It's my mom's story and how I turned her tragedy into my motivation to fight for moms. You know, I think... Incredible. We have to see ourselves as a part of a story or multiple stories. And part of my journey as a prosecutor, I would always find that motivation in... You know, this wasn't something I did for the money. I have a law office.

I have a law firm. I'm a private attorney, too. but for 20 years, I was not making a ton of money as a prosecutor. This was something I did because I believed in what I was doing and I believed in the people I was doing it with. But your motivation, Justin, and I'm sure this applies in your life, is how you see your place in the world. Like, through these stories, not only was I paying back my mom, I was becoming a husband and a father. You know, I have a case where it was a baby murder in the book, and I'm holding my newborn son while this is happening. Like, it was really wild those 20 years.

And that's what the book is about. It's just that journey. And really an homage to my mom, who is 79, still looks like she's 50. She just finished the book. Yes. Where you get it from? She just finished the book yesterday. So she called me this morning, and she said I finished it.

I absolutely loved it. And, you know, she said she, she crowsy. cried and she laughed. So let me tell you, if my mom loves the book, other moms are going to love it. But she's the one in my wife, Nicole, I wanted them to love the book and they love it. So I'm happy. You know, I hope people enjoy it. It's really, too, it's a true crime book, but the reality is to, it's a, it's a motivational book. It's basically like find motivation in the hard work you're doing and it will help carry you. When does it come out? April 21st. Just at time for mothers.

justice. So if he are is it available for pre-order yet? Yes, it's available on Amazon, um, you know, in Barnes and Noble. Um, so that's where you can find it. But Amazon, um, just search my name or mothers, murders and motivation. And if your mother, if you love your mother and your mother likes true crime and loves this kind of stuff, this is the book for her. And you, you might learn something too. Well, yeah, and I'll, I'll pick up a copy. And for, for listeners and watchers, if you're watching on YouTube, we're listening wherever you're listening, I will drop the link to the book for you going to pre-order into the show notes to make it easy for you guys.

Thank you so much. Yeah. I appreciate it. No, we can absolutely. Absolutely. So that's very exciting, though. Congratulations on the new book. It sounds like it's going to be really, really interesting.

It was very, you know, it was very therapeutic to write that because I get that. You're a busy guy. How much time do you spend looking backwards? You know, it's always you're fighting the fire in front of you. And as a prosecutor, you don't have the luxury of ever looking back. The book forced me to do that. And I kept saying to myself was like, one of the things I kept saying is I was writing like, this shit is so crazy.

Like how did, how? How did you, you know, not only get through this. How did you manage this stuff? You know, and when you look at it day to day was one thing. But when you look at it collectively, it's like, that's a lot of stuff. Now I understand why I'm so messed up. You know, it's funny. So I get.

jealous of people like you because you have a great relationship with your mother. My mother is a malignant narcissist. And, you know, I'm not, the, the reason that I went viral on social media in the first place had nothing to do with true crime. It had to do with, uh, narcissistic parents. What happened was is so my daughter, I have a six year old. Yeah, my daughter's six years old. Um, and we, I'll get a little real with you for a minute, but some of my followers I've heard that before, this might be first for some others. We were coming off of a miscarriage, a pregnancy loss. And my mom's response to that was very, very weird to begin with.

But then when we find out we're pregnant with our daughter now, I tell her, I get excited. And basically, without going through the whole thing, if anyone was it, it's the Pits-the-pin video on my TikTok, you guys can go watch kind of the more in-depth story on it. But basically, she didn't want anything to do with it. No one has to do with us, nothing. She has an issue with my wife. My mother's one of those. I'm the youngest too, by the way.

My mom is one of those that has an issue with anybody. Any woman you date, any girl I dated, any woman I dated, always was an issue, right? So I think that for, if I had to guess what it was about, for my mom, it was once, she knew that once I had a kid, that that kid would be, would, she would be taking a back seat to that kid forever. That was it. And I think that that was part of it. So before she could feel rejection or whatever, you know, she did it. But this was the way that she was. My mom also like, there are some weird things like she, her best friend said that she had been committing mortgage fraud for a long time.

There's this weird, she had a property that burned down mysteriously and got investigated for arson. There's been some weird IRS stuff. So I'm not saying like, oh, just her feelings were hurting this. No, she's, this is how she is. But my daughter is six and a half. She's never once made an effort. And what really gets me is my daughter was also a 29 weeker. So she was born at 29 weeks, three days.

We were in the Niki for, you know, 43 days. Never once her. My wife and daughter almost died never once heard from her. So it's at a point now for me personally that, you know, I will protect my child at all costs. And it's been too long for her to even come back if she tried because I'm not going to have somebody coming in and out of my kid's life and just, you know, be that way. Well, it's weird, though, Justin, like, in a sense, that made you stronger. You know, it's like... Well, it did.

Circumstances reveal who. you are. You know, I look at like, I was blessed to have my mom, but I did watch her struggle, and I watched her suffer, and she's tough, you know, she expects greatness from her four boys, you know, and what you did was you took an apathetic mom who blew up the launching pad before she had to deal with sharing you with your baby. You turned it into being a great parent. I could hear it in your voice, you know, and sometimes, that's your teacher. You know, it's like if there's any way to find a justification or some light in what you

had to experience with your mom, it's that she made you better, believe it or not. No, I agree with that fully because in this whole, this whole situation, so you're right on the parenting. When I, when my daughter, she's, she's, she's really, like, I'm not, I know every, every parent thinks about it. She really is a phenomenal kid. She is so smart, very, you know, very sweet. adorable, very witty.

She says like, at six years old, she says some of the wittiest stuff. The sign of intelligence, too. Yeah. I have one of those. She doesn't even. She doesn't even even remember what it was, but I was like, that is really witty. And she's like, well, what's witty? And she's always asking questions.

But I think about like the very few times she gets in trouble, which is very rare, I think what would my mom do in this situation? And I do the opposite. I'm what that would be. I'm just going to brag on a little bit more. We had a parent teacher conference recently, and they were like, you know, we don't really have any feedback. Give you guys, she's always great in class.

She always participates. She's a kind friend to everybody. She's always there. And I'm like, it makes you feel good. But with all of this stuff, I was struggling because I had always been very close with my mom. And so all this was happening. We had this new baby. We had the stress of the NICU stress.

Her first year of life was very difficult because of how vulnerable she was. And so I'm going through this. And my wife is like, why don't you just this TikTok was still fairly new? She's like, why don't you just make a TikTok video? It might make yourself feel better. I didn't expect anything to come from it. You know, in my 40s, I don't expect to become a social media creator. Like that's not on my, anywhere near my wheelhouse. Well, I wake up the next morning from that video to 46,000 followers. Wow. How about that? And then I keep going. And then what happened is I believe it or not, this is going to be maybe a shock to some of the listeners. I was never into

true crime ever like never followed it i mean there were cases like you know i knew about like some of the big ones like jeanemone and natalie holloway she either teupac like a teupac is my roman empire case you know my wife is watching during gadi pettito and guy pettito went missing and i don't know if you remember that one that's the young girl absolutely yes very much so so gaii pettito goes missing and the moab body cam footage comes out and my wife's like sit down sit your ass down and watch this and so I should have been talking about it for a day so I sit down and watch it I'm like oh his mannerisms the way he speaks

gas lights everything he's the smooth talking it's exactly like my mom this correlates with my content let me cover it then I became one of the top co you know creators covering gabberto and actually out of that I I'm friends with the entire family

like I like Joe Petito is like one of my favorite people in the world he's just a blast I you know I talk to him like we just call we just to shoot the shit at this point so you know I can't really relationship I know I know, certainly know the Petitos know Don Drexel and have a question. But just, you know, one of the things you're saying, like, it does come back to, like,

I always tell people, like, I'm just an Italian mama's boy, you know, and it comes back to moms, but, like, it shapes so much of who you are. Like, I always say, like, I look back and having her in my life and then having my two kids now and I have a little girl, those are what motivate you to take, like, I've done these cases that were horrific and evil killers and evil. And they had no, those killers had no idea what they were up against. Not this great lawyer. They had a lawyer who was there to avenge, you know, his mom's struggles and show an example to his kids that I want to build a world worthy of them.

I want justice to mean something. And I want someone like this to be put away forever so they could never hurt my kids or anybody like them. Like if that's your motivation, whether it's now you're doing true crime and those kind of things, nothing's going to stop you. I always tell my little girl that too. Like I say, as long as you love daddy, nothing will stop daddy. Don't worry about it. You know, and that's, it's just, you know, and to hear two guys talking about mommies and their little girls, but it's like it's the way it is. It is the way it makes you tougher.

Well, that's part of it. Well, then I realized, you know, as it grew, like, well, I was gifted, you know, by the grace of God or whatever you do you want to call it. I was gifted this platform. You know, now I'm at, you know, across platforms, I think I'm over. I'm like a 3.1 or 3.2 million followers. That's amazing. And I was like, well, I have to. Thank you.

And I have to use this. I have to do something positive with it. You know, I haven't spoken publicly about this. And I'll do it on the podcast only and not like on my socials. but I had a fairly large creator call me out the other day. This person's not happy. I guess that I'm covering F, Epstein and this person's like,

well, you know, he's very, you know, he's exploitive. He's doing this good guy trope. And he starts commenting on my stuff. And then I went back and I'm like,

well, I'm going to respond to him. And, but privately, I'm not going to drag this out into the public. It doesn't need to be. And so I respond and he, I went to go to send him a DM.

And he'd already messaged me about what, you know, like, you know, what's your whole endgame on all this. And I just kind of told, I was like, you know, I was, he was like, I know you're getting paid for this. I'm like, yeah, I said, I make money as a social media creator, you know, like, just like any journalist or anybody who does a documentary. I said, I never like, you know, I never hit my followers up for money. I never asked like, I'm not like, hey, you know, subscribe to me, do this, do this. I make it off the views. But the goal of, my whole goal of it's not about money. Grateful for the fact that I can make a living to pay my bills doing this because I love doing this. Like the cases and stuff are heavy, but I know at the end of the.

the day that my voice is going to leave a better mark for my daughter. You know, right now I have a petition going. It's almost a 250,000 signatures to end easy plea deals for those for child predators. You know, I'm sure you've seen as a prosecutor many times, you see these guys who harm kids. They get off with an easy plea deal, one to two years probationally. I lost my mind on a former colleague last week on one. Yeah. So Alden wouldn't, wouldn't accept a plea and wanted them to get it straightened out. And they did. I mean, but you know, I just, And you said something. You said you love what you do. And certainly, I could certainly tell you do. And that's the secret. You know, it's whatever it is. Like to me, whether it's a prosecutor, a podcaster, whether you're collecting garbage, you know, if you love it and you enjoy it and it's providing for your family, like, that's going to carry you pretty far. Yeah. I mean, I don't get rich. Like you don't get rich on a bunch of views, but, you know, it's, you do enough. But, you know, he, this person was basically accusing me like, you know, why, you know, as a straight white male are you, are you doing this? And I'm like, like, he would basically was accusing me of being exploitive. And he actually, and I found out afterwards that he had made a couple of videos, you know, basically saying, well, he, you know, exploited the potato family. He exploits this person. I'm like, dude, you know nothing about me. Like, you don't know my reasoning behind what I do what I do. I have reasons. I have my own trauma, which led me to this. And so anyway, that, that you want to get me. That's very few things.

things that can get me. Call my integrity into question. Then we got a problem. So anyway. What's the question? Straight white dudes can't talk. Apparently. Is that the implication? Okay. That makes a lot of sense. Yeah. In fact, I think honestly, though, my opinion on this is when you're dealing with crimes against women, crimes against children, you need to have more males talking about that because oftentimes men, a lot of times men dismiss it. You know, and I think that, you know, that's, I think, what resonates. So, It's, I think that this particular individual has, he is a survivor. You know, he shares his story publicly.

So he's a survivor. I think he's got a lot of trauma. And he needs to work through a lot of that. I think it's going to be hard. He's got a long road ahead. He seems like a really good guy overall, honestly. He really does. He just, I think, is, he's angry and he needs a direction to point it.

And I happen to be. Well, this is an interesting. You know, I do like. this whole podcasting lane and and and the true crime podcasting lane and the comment in the common like it's an interesting field to navigate it really is you know and and and there are we have like an east coast crew you know Lauren Conlin and the Njemies and I had some wonderful from my buddy Steph Watts like there's a there's an East Coast group who all have very different experience levels that I communicate with quite regularly um and

then there are people that have virtually no experience in the work, but make pointed observations and do an entertaining show. What I always tell people is consider your source. You know, it's like, has this person put in the work? Have they read them? Believe me, you don't need to be a lawyer to comment on things. But you can tell, like, you're reading the Epstein files, you are, and you can tell someone is putting in the work, as opposed to saying out outrageous things and repeating what others say.

I mean, that's been like just watching, even with the Guthrie case now. You know, I've done, I've been on some of the same shows as Brian Ninton. I don't know Brian personally, but he is doing a great job. Brian's great. I'm out in front of that house. I've met Brian. I don't know him personally either, but he is great. Yeah.

And he, we did, we were on his podcast and we did a show called Cry Nation for on the CW Network for two seasons. And Brian and Ashley Banfield were a part of that show. but he is really doing a good job of like that's where I'm covering this story and learning about it. I go to Brian's Twitter page and watch his YouTube channel. It's a different world now. And you're getting the news as he's learning about it. And he's talking about how hot it is out there and things like that. It's very real.

It's very gritty. And there are a lot of people that do it that way. And it's not owned by one of three companies for the most part when you have independent. Yeah. And I think there's that too. And I think if the political climate of the country has done anything, it's revealed that, yeah, there are just a couple of people that are, or companies that are controlling all that content. And it's refreshing to see other perspectives. As long as it's done right, the issue is you have to kind of, you know, wade through what's real and what's not.

And that's the problem. And that's where integrity comes in. And, you know, look, I am not perfect by any means. I'll give you an example the other day of something that happened. I uh the so Epstein has this network of gynecologists

because men need gynecologists and he has two in New York um that I was able to uncover from the files and I outed them because they deserve to be outed and then he's got the one in Ohio at the Wexner Medical Center that that was doctor you know that Ohio State University

um doctor Dr. Landon. But I actually, I'll tell you this story. I actually called one of the offices in New York. Boy. She got very mad at me and put me on eternal hold. I recorded back and hey, you put me on hold. And so I recorded that one and I posted it up.

And I was like, hey, this is Dr. Adam Romoff. He is one of the ones. His name and address are here in these files for his office. Do with that what you want. You know, it's, I had a whole point to where I was going with this. But basically with the files and stuff like that, it's making these connections and holding people accountable. There was a whole reason I was going on. I completely lost my train.

I thought I'm sure I'll come back to it. What we're talking about you putting in the work. Putting in the work. Yeah. So we find all of that stuff out. And then, you know, oh, yeah. So I got something wrong. When I posted the picture of these doctors, there was one doctor, Dr. Susan Yeh, who's also part of it.

Well, when I searched her picture, there was one of those medical. sites had misappropriated her picture and had her name with the wrong photo. So I put that photo up and it was not the correct doctor despite the fact that that site said that it was. And so this doctor emails me and says, hey, very, very nice. I'm not, this is who I am. That's my picture. My colleagues have told me, would you mind, you know, as soon as I got it within within five minutes, all the photos were down of her. Because it's not worth me putting out information for a few views. You know, I'd rather go back and correct it. And so then I sent her a message though. I said, hey, just to let you know, everything is down. I am so incredibly sorry, would you

like me to post a correction? I was like, I can understand if you want me to. I can also understand you just wanting this to not have any more attention, whatever you want, I'll do. And so she said that no, I'd rather just not, you know, anything happened. And so I said, okay, done. But the point is that I, there sometimes I will get things wrong. I'm a person. I'm a one man team. And so, but when it does happen, the difference is how you handle it as somebody who's in this field. You know, are you going to say, hey, man, I screwed up and let's make a correction or let's do this. Are you going to leave things up? Are you going to not or just blaze over it? And I think that that's where you really kind of come into, you know, the different field when you're talking about careers. I'm not trying to like to

my own horn. There are other creators to do that. Well, you build in credibility, Justin. If you're not credible, it's not going to last, you know, and that's the way, that's the key. You know, people have to, there are a million places they could go for content. And if you're what you're saying and your guest doesn't ring true, then they're not going to waste their time. So you know, you have to build that credibility and acknowledging when there's a mistake made is part of it. Yeah.

And people can, you know, the thing is people can see through the BS too. When you follow creators, you know, you can see, you know, if they're getting themselves into the drama, if they're posting, you know, erroneous stuff, if they're making things up. and just you know people see that and then you you see their growth plateau that's just how it is so you know people people aren't stupid you know people can see through it you can't fake there's a lot of it you can't fake as well I'll say right I don't know you don't so well I definitely think that we ought to do this again I know that we just talk about Britney Dreggler hardly at all but I think we should do this again I love I've loved this conversation with you Jared I think it's been

no likewise John the time flew too I'm like, I know. I actually would keep going, but I'm like, they don't want to listen to like three hours of this. So I'm up. I'm up to do this whenever you'd like. Like I said, I enjoy it. I still practice law. I have a law firm.

So whenever I'm doing this, I'm on a break from a much more serious. I get that. I get that. Sometimes you need to get your head around. And even if it's something like this, which is still, you know, in the orbit, I get what that means. There's different types of, yeah. So, well, before we... But just if you could, if you could just put a link to my Instagram and my YouTube.

They're both just my name. Yeah, I can do that. Tell people where to follow you. So I have an Instagram, Jared Farentino, and there's that one's out there. And then I have a YouTube page with my podcast that we put up whenever we could do it called True Crime Boss. I'm going to follow you right now if I don't already. Yeah, we're just... There you are.

All by Lauren Conlin. You don't follow them back. How dare you, sir? Anyways, well, yeah, I'll go to put the links to that, to the links to your book, you know, pick it up, support, you know, the work that Jared's doing. You know, this is a lawyer or an attorney who's in it for the right reasons. So we always want to support that when we see that. And man, just thank you so much for the commentary and everything today.

Yeah, Justin, and we'll see you again. Let's do this again. You let me know. you ask, I'll be here. I appreciate it. Well, for everybody else, we will see you guys next week. This has been unheard. The views and opinions expressed in this episode

are solely those of the individual speaking and do not necessarily reflect those of the host. Unheard is intended to provide a platform for personal stories and lived experiences, not to establish facts, determine guilt, innocence, or provide legal, medical, or professional advice. Listeners are encouraged to conduct their own research and form their own conclusions.

Thank you for listening to Unheard.