Unheard: True Crime in Their Own Words - The Cases We Get Wrong | Allison Weiner on True Crime, Media, and Missteps

Episode Date: April 27, 2026

There’s the version of a case you see… and then there’s what’s actually happening while it’s unfolding.In this episode, I’m joined by Allison Weiner, an investigative journalist who’s spent years covering high-profile cases in real time, not after the fact, not cleaned up for a documentary, but as they’re happening.We get into cases like Holly Bobo case and Amy Harwick case, but this isn’t about retelling what happened. It’s about everything that happens around it.How quickly narratives form. How pressure, whether it’s media, law enforcement, or public opinion, can shape the direction of a case. And how hard it is to undo that once it starts.We also talk about the impact on victims’ families, what people misunderstand about investigative reporting, and where the line is in true crime, and what happens when it gets crossed.This is one of those conversations that makes you step back and question how these stories are told… and what you think you know.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Today's conversation gives us a rare look into the stories that most people never see. I'm joined by Alison Weiner, an investigative journalist who spent years in the middle of some the most high profile and emotionally charged cases out there. Cases like Holly Bobo, Amy Harwick, and even the media frenzy around Robert Blake. But just because she's an investigative journalist doesn't mean this episode is about rehashing headlines. It's not. It's about what happens behind them, what people never see unless you're living behind the scenes. The reality is there's a line and true crime and a lot of people cross it.

We'll get into what it actually looks like when investigation, go wrong when law enforcement misses things and when the media rushes to judgment and perhaps most importantly when victims families are forced to relive the worst moments of their lives over and over again you know in episode one of unheard elizabeth smart shared something that stuck with me and that's how you don't get back what was taken from you and that's the part of true crime that doesn't trend doesn't go viral and doesn't get talked about enough so this episode pulls back the curtain a little bit on the cases on the coverage and on the cost now before we jump in if you're listening on apple spotify or youtube take a second to follow the show

and turn on notification so you don't miss what's coming next. I'll also give you a quick preview of next week's episode at the end, which you definitely do not want to miss. And with that said, let's get into this episode of Unheard, True Crime in Their Own Words. Well, thanks for having me. I'm thrilled to be on your podcast. My name is Alison Hope Winer, and I am a senior producer for News Nation. Before that, I wrote for The New York Times.

I was a journalist writing. I wrote, worked for EW Entertainment Weekly for like five years. I worked for, I wrote for Vanity Fair. I just wrote for a lot of different people over the years. And then I had my own YouTube show before it was worth anything. I was a little ahead of my time. And then I went to work for ABC News, worked with Diane Sawyer, worked with a lot of people over at ABC for 2020. We did the Turpin story.

won an Emmy for that. And then I went to News Nation where I am producing, I'm an investigative producer. So we cover a lot of crime, but I also do politics and other things. But my true interest is in crime stories. And basically, I wrote a book about the stuff that you say at cocktail parties about the stories that you've covered, the stuff that you tell your friends, things that you don't write in a magazine, personal things, personal travails. personal things that you've talked to victims families about or lawyers about. And I wanted to take the readers behind the scenes of an investigative reporter's life because it's not that we're doing anything sneaky. It's just that we talk to people about certain things that sometimes don't fit into a narrative for a five-minute spot on TV or even a short article in a magazine or in the newspaper. You know, I got a question for you in a second, but that's kind of the whole reason why I

created this podcast. So, you know, we, before we went live and started recording, we were talking about the Gabby Petito case a little bit. And so I became friends with Gabby's family, you know, Nikki and Jim and Joe and Tara, you know, throughout the whole process. And earlier, I guess it was last year, several months ago, there was a new Netflix documentary that came out on Gabby and her story. And Nikki was a little frustrated by it because she said that, you know, they did a great job on the documentary. Netflix was phenomenal to work with. You know, nothing bad to say there. But she was like, they recorded all of us for like eight hours. And they used hardly any of the stuff that we recorded. And nothing really knew. It just kind of rehashed some of the old stuff. And then it gave me the idea like, well, what if we created a platform where people who are close to these stories, whether it's the victim, some cases perpetrators, family members, journalists, lawyers can come on and kind of, kind of, to share their perspective in a way that's not a five-minute spot that's not angled to be quote-unquote sexy for TV and really kind of get down to that nitty-gritty. And so that's the whole reason why this show exists for exactly kind of the same way you wrote your book. But I have to ask you,

does that YouTube channel still exist? Can people go find it? No. Well, we took down. I didn't know called Crime Time, but it had a lot of people that are on all the networks now. We train then. We all learned how to do TV together. other, including, I mean, Chris Cuomo was a guest. I had get Jim Clementi, Tim Clementi, a lot of FBI guys, retired FBI guys. Francie Hakes, his former federal prosecutor, actually, is now working for, you know, the attorney general, like the office in Washington. But yeah, we had a lot of people on. And then I did some stars, Billy Freaking, the director of the Exorcist. I was in Los Angeles. So that's...

So it was just different people I knew and everybody like kind of did me a solid and went, come on. But there was a lot still to learn about TV. Yeah, but you were, like you said, you were ahead of your time, that was when YouTube was still in its kind of its infancy and not nearly what it is, you know, the behemoth that it is today. We could not figure out that to monetize it. And my husband, who was working at Warner Brothers at the time said, we're having trouble figuring out how to monetize it. So I guess I don't. It's a little easier now, I guess, but.

Yeah, it's a lot easier now. But yeah, we, but I learned a lot. And I met a lot of interesting people. And I was able to focus on something that I enjoyed on stories that I had investigated, things like that. Well, and let's just jump right in there because I want to be cognizant of your time as well. But like, so you sent me over a copy of your manuscript, which is not out yet and said, hey, read this first chapter on Holly Bobo. And, you know, it's a case that,

you know, in all transparency, I'm not incredibly familiar with. I mean, I'm aware of it. I know, you know, the nuts and bolts. But reading the first chapter, and I said this to Allison, when, you know, before we started, and I wouldn't say this unless it was true. The first chapter that I read was like 15, 16 pages was incredibly captivating. It was so well written, stuff that you don't know, definitely things that are behind the scenes, the way the whole case played out with law enforcement, with investigators. And I mean, there were, there were a lot of balls dropped, it seems, like a lot of balls dropped. Some that could have potentially saved her life had they had done things correctly. I don't want to give anything away. I'll let you kind of talk

about it. But since you were involved in that case, that was back in, what, 2011? Let's talk about that one because that's a very well-known case. And obviously, you were very close to it. Well, before we do that, I just wanted to say the name of my book is murder and the media. And it is going to drop on April 28th. And it's available on Amazon and also on Barnes & Noble. You can pre-order it now. So we just have a couple of weeks to go before everybody can get it. And there are four high-profile murder cases that I talk about in it.

And I go behind the scenes. And Holly Bobo was the first one that I wrote about. In terms of Holly Bobo, you know, there's a lot of what is. It was super tragic. The family was a wonderful family, is a wonderful family. But I think that in the beginning of the investigation, there were just a lot of mistakes made. And I think that the family was responsible for forcing some sort of searches and conclusions and really kept it out there in the public. But the thing that's the family was responsible for forcing some sort of searches and conclusions and really kept it out there in the public. But the thing that struck me the most about the family was that they were so re-victimized. You know, when you have a high profile case, and I don't think people think about this, but we're beginning to see it like with the Charlie Kirk case, what is happening to Erica Kirk and the conspiracy theories. And people come to you. There's all kinds of charlatans, mediums, you know, all kinds of people trying to say,

private investigators volunteering their time who end up charging you later. And it's just really rough to be in the eye of that storm, especially if you don't have any buffers. And these were regular people in a small town in Tennessee who were just trying to find their daughter. And it also was particularly difficult for me, this one, because it was a 20-year-old nursing student, Holly Bobo, who was abducted from her home. She was out by her car and taken. And, you know, I had a 20-year-old daughter at the time. blonde and blue eye, you know, like the same sort of thing. And when I looked at, when I walked into the house to meet the family and I looked at the pictures, the house was kind of frozen in time.

They've since moved on to a different house. I'm sure that this, they live with this pain, especially, you know, the immediate family, but also others and friends with this pain for the rest of their life. But this was a very extraordinary young woman who was taken. And she was taken from a very safe place, what you would consider being from a city. I mean, I lived in Los Angeles. Yes, somebody is like robbed and somebody kidnapped somebody. You go, that's horrible. But this is in the middle of like acres and acres of land, like where you should feel safe, where you could go ATVing. They had lakes nearby. And I drove to the house on a gravel road. I mean, it really was about three hours from Nashville. So, you know, I live in Nashville. I don't know if you know, I can do that.

but I live in Nashville. And so I know it was in Parsons, Tennessee or that area. I was, and for people, I used to be a medical sales rep, and so I had that as territory. There is nothing, nothing out there. Like it is, it is a very small community, very safe community, limited, you know, on pretty much everything. And if I understand correctly based on what I read, and I'm sorry, I didn't mean to interrupt you with this. Their house was sitting on a pretty significant amount of acreage, correct? So they really would have had to have somebody would have had to really have been getting up into this property, not just like, hey, let me walk a few feet up a driveway.

No, you had to get up into the property. You had to know how to get out of that area because it's switchbacks and mountainous. So when I had to leave that night, I went to interview the family long before the trial started just so they could get to know me. I was allowed to take notes, but we had an agreement that nothing that we talked about then would be. released until after a verdict. And I stuck to that agreement. And I was there because I was doing for ABC News. I was working with Elizabeth Vargas at the time. But I went by myself and I drove the three hours. And the reason I got the interview with the family is there was a lawyer who was working pro bono, a really famous lawyer, Steve Feree, Sr., who had done, you probably don't know this. but he had done the Mary Winkler case of the preacher's wife who shot her husband in the head

because he was abusing her and the children. And he had done that pro bono and quite successfully. I mean, because she was an abuse victim. And he's had a ton of other very famous cases. He is the go-to guy. He's based in Mississippi. So I had met him on a case before that and just gone. I had gone to meet him because he was just so.

amazing lawyer and I just wanted me to I didn't go for any particular reason so several years later I said do you know anything about this holly bobo case because it's it seems to be coming up for trial and he said yeah I'm representing the family because they've been just so abused by the media and by people looking to make a buck off of them and and people writing books about holly as their best friends this happens a lot you know who don't even know or this goes to with those high profile cases. I mean, we had, I remember when I talked to, yeah, I've talked to a ton of people

and there's always those books or they see somebody on TV talking about their close relationship with their, the person who's missing and the family doesn't know who it is. It's just horrible. Somebody they went to middle school with, like years ago in one class.

Maybe. I know. Maybe they weren't even in the same class. They saw each other in the cafeteria. Yeah. It happens a lot and you have to ever careful. when you're doing interviews that you don't get sucked in by people that didn't really know the victim. And it's helpful to know the family so that you can ask, is this someone that Holly even knew?

Is this someone that Holly loved? Is this someone Holly would share things with? I would ask, are you comfortable with me speaking to this person? I mean, because this is before the trial. And I didn't, you know, want to do anything to impede the course of justice. We didn't know how long their trial was going to be because it didn't happen until 2000. But when I met Karen Bobo and Dana Bobo, I went to their house and it was just beyond sad. They were in so much pain. And you sit there asking them to kind of relive that period. But the thing that struck me the most about the Bobos was their faith. And I think that's what they stayed married.

they had incredible faith in God. And I think that without that, they would have been lost. And I find that with a lot of victims, families, you need to look. It makes no sense why this beautiful nursing student who didn't have any enemies, you know, would disappear. And they had to go through three years of not knowing what happened to her. And the dad said to me, Dana said to me that he had dreams, like where she was running towards him. she'd escaped where she was being held, and he rescued her. And it was just, it was tough. It was just tough to, you could feel it. I met her dog. They had her dog that was on the couch.

And the house was exactly the same as when she'd left. And the thing that also struck me is that I looked at that picture, her high school picture. And I looked at the picture of her brother. So it was a, it just was a horrible story, horrible. case, but ultimately they got some justice. They got some justice. And again, I'm not giving it all the way. In the chapter that I read, you know, for people who aren't familiar, you know, there was, you know, obviously you don't know what the outcome. You don't know the what ifs, right? So what if they had done this? What if they had done that? But there's a lot of areas where you could argue that the ball was dropped by law enforcement or investigators or they didn't act swift enough. They didn't rope off a crime scene. I was reading

that part that you did about the crime scene where they're trampling all through it and my mind goes straight to Jean Bonnet, like in that whole situation in Colorado. And Dana Bobo actually put up tape. He had some, he did constructions. So he put up, he did tree removal, but he had tape to like put up around the area, but it was kind of too late. I think the issue here was is that we were dealing before, you know, more seasoned investigators got there. You know, they had to convince them that it was a kidnapping.

They had to convince, you know, there was just a lot until they saw blood in the garage next to Holly's car, there was a lot of skepticism. Plus, there was the issue of the brother. And I'm, you know, I name him in the book, but I'm not gonna, we just call him

the brother right now, so I don't need to put his and he had been asleep. And he heard, some ruckus and he thought Holly, he heard Holly arguing with the man by the garage. And he was half asleep. She let was leaving early that morning to go for a nursing exam. And he assumed it was her boyfriend. And then he later, he heard more ruckus, dogs barking, and he got up and he began to investigate. And he saw Holly walking with someone in camouflage. And he thought again, it was the boyfriend, reasonable assumption. And it turned out not to

to have been the boyfriend. It turned out to be the killer, one of the killers, and one of the rapists, and one of the kidnappers. And he suffered greatly. The police assumed as soon as they got there, this is something that happens at a lot of crime scenes, and I'm sure you're aware of this, is a rush to judgment, where it just kind of looks like, how come the brother didn't stop him? And then he, you know, and everybody in the little town was, how come the brother wasn't the hero and why didn't the brother stop it? And he didn't realize what was happening. And it makes complete sense because they're in the middle of nowhere where people don't get abducted. And ultimately what ended up happening is that he was cleared. He took a lie detector test.

And that's kind of how my friend or the lawyer got involved representing the family because this is ridiculous. He was being harassed. And they kept their focus on him almost up until they arrested the three men that they claimed, you know, that they alleged were involved in the murder, a rape and abduction of Holly Bubba. I mean, they were still surveilling the cameras, had wiretaps on the phones. Insane. You know, it's, it's, you're right when people like to rush to judgment. And I talk about this a lot. And I get very frustrated with it because people will do it to friends, will do it to family members. And especially when it's family members who, who are already suffering, You know, like you said, when you're dealing with a high profile case, it's a completely different animal when it's in national news and everybody's making their decisions.

You know, we have the gift of hindsight. You know, a recent case is the Coburger, you know, the Idaho four murders. I don't actually like to say his name. I usually just call him inmate 163, 214. That's appropriate. Because it's appropriate because he, I don't even think this guy's human. He's just an absolute monster. But, you know, people are, well, why did the roommates not know?

well, you know, when you're in a situation like that, you don't know how you're going to, nobody thinks that they're upstairs roommates. There's going to be a quadruple homicide when they get up in the morning. Nobody thinks that, you know, and it's the same thing with this kind of a situation. The same thing with Jean-Beney Ramsey. Like it's been 30 years now this year, and they still blame the nine-year-old brother for it. And it becomes very frustrating. And I'm making a point of this because, you know, that's another thing to me that's really important is like stop victimizing

when re-victimizing the family. is when you think you know something when you don't, you know. The other thing that I want to say, too, and I don't want to give the police department a pass on this, but when you're talking to, you know, about like this area of Tennessee, these police departments aren't set up to handle homicide. Like, they're really not.

That's not something that happens. When that happens, you call in, you know, the TBI, or you call in the FBI, you call in, you know, state police, you know, maybe out of Nashville or something like that. But you typically as a small department, don't have the budget or the funding to have the equipment needed. And so when a situation like this happens, they're not necessarily sure how to handle it

because it's not something that they handle. And Idaho is a great example of that. Well, they did call in the TBI, and they made a lot of mistakes. I think, but worse yet, is that Holly Bobo had her phone, and he was on. And there's only a couple of ways to get out of there. And they had like about 40 minutes where it was still working before they talked. it where she could have, somebody could have found her. The time was of the essence. And somehow they called in to try to get the phone records and they did it the wrong way. I mean, you know,

things happen. But and the focus on the family, I understand initially that is always the case. We're seeing, we saw that with the Guthrie case. I just got back from Arizona covering the Guthrie case. and we saw that, you know, you do look at the family. You look at the people closest to the victim. And then you move on. I mean, if you don't find anything significant, I mean, maybe you keep it in the back of your mind. I'm not sure I'm not an investigator,

but you have to widen your search if it's not getting you anywhere. And I think that it's, yeah, it's just a real shame that the focus on that brother remained for so long. And there were arguments within the agents of the TBI about who was responsible. And somebody was saying, move on. I think it's this guy. And he also got myopic thinking it was another person who had done it.

But initially, the three defendants who all went to jail, all three of them were suspects. And frankly, I think that Karen Bobo went about her own investigation because she was suspicious of them. There was fourth suspect who actually ended up, you know, not going to jail. He hanged himself. But if you read through this, you will see mistakes, but mostly you will see mistakes by all branches of the investigators. I think that's, you know, that happens. But again, like you said, this is a very small place. And ultimately, there were, you know, one guy that went on trial who they said was the mastermind. I'm not sure that's correct. because I kind of think the person who turned against the other two was the mastermind,

but I write about that. And the trial itself, it took it out of that family too. I mean, it really took out of them. So I think you should read as you go through because I cover in my book the investigation before the trial even happens, what happens at the trial, and then the aftermath. And in the Bobo case, there's still appeals going on. So, you know, it's not over until it's over. it's not over yet. So I, but I do think that the family got a modicum of peace with someone in jail.

I don't think the appeals will be successful, but you never know. Yeah, you know, I'll say something that that's really kind of stuck with me. So the first episode of this podcast we did with Elizabeth Smart, and I love, I'm sure you probably met her in passing her time, but she's incredible woman. I've talked, I mentioned, I referenced her a lot on this, but she, she said something on our show that has just stuck with me and we're talking about like the justice system. And she goes, we don't have a justice system. We have a legal system because you will never get back what was taken from you. And so I always think about that when you said when we're talking about these families, like you said, you didn't say they got justice. You said they got a modicum of peace because there's accountability,

which is really all you can get because they're never going to get Holly back. And that that one line has just stuck with me since our conversation, her and I, my conversation. Well, that's the case with, I mean, I did, like I said, I wrote about four high profile cases. Robert Blake is one of the cases that I wrote about. Blake twice. I covered it the year before he was even arrested. And right after the murder of his ex-wife or with his wife, Bonnie Lee Bakley. And they were married at the time and she was pregnant with his kids.

So he decided to marry her. So it was never exactly a love match. I mean, they had sex in the back of his truck. She got pregnant. She wanted to have a baby or a relationship with a celebrity. But in the Blake case, there really wasn't, you know, I mean, there was no way to prove that he was the person who shot her. The gun didn't have his fingerprints on it. They weren't able to tie him to having hired anyone.

I don't think in that case, there is. even a modicum of justice or modic. But that is a fascinating case. And it's fascinating. Even on the heels of OJ Simpson, so they took a year to prepare. And still, the police made serious mistakes, such as having a novelist come with them to search the house, Robert Blake's house. Somebody was writing about the police department.

There were just so many mistakes. And on Robert Blake's side, two of the best lawyers, I know, Harlem Braun, Tom Mezzaro, both amazing lawyers. Tom Mezor is the person who got Michael Jackson acquitted of the sexual abuse charges. And Harlan Braun has represented everybody over the years. But nine months before Robert Blake was arrested, I went to interview Harlan Braun and he was preparing his case. Like what was going to happen at trial?

These are the great lawyers. And one of the things, one of the things he said to me was I said so why you're already being on, you're on TV all the time. They haven't even arrested him. And he goes, well, I'm going on CNN a lot because the case is going to be tried in Van Nuys. And that's what the jurors in Van Nuys watch. So he was on CNN already making the case. I mean, that's a brilliant lawyer, though. I mean, who does?

And that's behind the scene stuff. that nobody knows. I mean, he also talked about, he showed me immediately, and he didn't announce it as, this is what I'm doing, but he basically made a case against the victim. And it turned out to be like she was a person who needed killing. I mean, we used to joke about that. It's not humorous. But the idea was, is that she was such a bad person that she had pissed off so many people in her scams. You know, she sent nude photos to people. She sent photos to Hustler, want to see the photos for hustler, you know, to a young woman at the time. And I was like, not especially, but yes. And by the time he was done, you were like, ooh, the victim was kind of, it's still a

victim. But he did a very good job of showing that she had other enemies. And then Tom Mezzaro took over as Blake's lawyer and just finished the job, like in spades. And I write about that too, about the preliminary hearing, which basically won the case before there was a real trial. I'll ask you this because this is just for pure curiosity. I know that this is not in your book, so we can be very brief on this. Nick Reiner, what do you think is going to happen with that whole situation? Well, he clearly has a mental illness. I think they will try, you know, I mean, he clearly does.

He had his diagnosis of schizophrenia. I think that maybe if it wasn't another state, he would be going to jail. It's Los Angeles where we're, I don't know, kind of attuned to, I should say, like, more psychological problems. And like, the insanity defense in Idaho is like, why bother? There isn't one. You could just serve. I'm just saying it depends on the state. I think he will end up in a mental institution for the rest of the.

life is what I can think. And by the way, it could be worse than prison. Those mental institutions are pretty horrific. I've talked to doctors who have treated patients there. So that could be pretty horrific. I think there is a problem with his post-offence behavior that he was cognizant he had done something wrong, that he tried to clean up, you know, that he took the murder weapon with him. I guess we're going to have to find out of the murder weapon was at the house, if it was spontaneous where he brought the murder weapon with him. So there's other things that we don't know about. Of course.

But I do think that his siblings believe that he should be in prison, obviously, because they cut off the money and he has a public defender. That doesn't mean that he doesn't have a good lawyer, but he certainly doesn't have Alan Jackson, and he's a great lawyer. I was just, like I said, I was just curious because you're in that area and you have all this experience. And, you know, for me, when that happened, I mean, it's gotten very hush, hush. The family's done a pretty good job of keeping him.

going to wrap like i um you know anything about his personal life aside anyway but he's a phenomenal direct he was a phenomenal director and i loved all in the family and he he kind of helped make that show so it was really i mean it was tragic all around but you know he was kind of beloved like from my childhood a lot of the movies that he did were a huge part of my childhood so um you know something murdered with his wife on honica it was first night of honica i was i was just he was shocking. It was like, who would want to do that? I mean, he was one of the nicest people ever. I'd interviewed him several times over the years when I was in Entertainment Weekly and just, you know, real professional. I mean, not my friend, but somebody who just like did it, you know, was nice to people,

cordial, incredibly well-spoken, very political, and, and open about discussing it, not pretending like he didn't say what he said, you know, kind of thing and didn't really care about the ramifications of that. but super talented. And I felt very sorry for the family because when you have a mentally ill child like that, I'm sure that those siblings

suffered for a lot of years with the attempts to try. It's sort of the child with the most problems gets the most attention instead of the children that are fine. So the whole situation's a mess. And I found incredibly sad.

And it was a real circus in Los Angeles when he was being arraigned. When Alan Jackson was involved. There was probably about seven people deep of press. I'm, you know, bigger than anywhere else. It just was crazy. Yeah. That's huge. I was like, I was just curious because it was recent and, and you, you clearly have a ton of knowledge about the back end of this kind of stuff. So I was just kind of curious. Well, I was there. I mean, I went to come. Yeah, that makes it even more. I didn't

know that. But yeah, that makes it even more. Yeah, I'm watching that one to see kind of what ends up happening. That one, I keep like an eye on. I search on, you know, for updates on. But yeah. What else do you want to tell people about other cases? What's in the book? Sure. I mean, it's all fascinating. The other cases that I covered, I have, one is the case of Amy Harwick. And she was a sex therapist, real female rights, helped sex workers who were having issues as a therapist. And she had a stalker. And the stalker hadn't served. for it since 2015 as far as anybody knew. She went to an adult film awards event and ran into him.

He was a photographer. And it ignited everything. And a month later, she was dead. And the worst part about this was that he broke into her home. And again, there was a bystander. There was a tenant living on the first, on the first floor. It's a three-story home. Well, not three-story home, but either, yeah, three-story-home.

home in the Hollywood Hills. She happened to live around the corner for me. And we just couldn't, nobody could kind of wrap their heads around it. He chased her all the way up to the roof and then he tossed her off the roof. And he said it was an accident. The roommate ran to get help because he didn't have any kinds of weapons or anything, but the roommate was left with the feeling kind of like the brother in Holly Bobo of like, why didn't the roommate help? And he was the initial suspect. naturally. I became friends. I knew a lot of the people she knew, actually. We had, you know, some people in common. It was my neighborhood. And, you know, you just sort of know people. And I, and even though people think people in L.A. don't know each other. We don't talk to our neighbors.

And I talked to her best friend and her, she had so much promise. And she was such a do-goater. She would have been dating Drew Carey and they were thinking about getting back together. And The fact was it hit me very hard that one because it was pretty obvious. They arrested him pretty fast, but then he got released on bail for some reason. And then, I mean, which I write about. And then he got re-arrested. But he went about his business after he had, she had written an email to herself after running into him saying that if I'm murdered, he did it. So it was a really interesting trial.

And it brought together all kinds of people from Los Angeles, all the different kinds, you know, people that were trans, sex workers, her parents from Pennsylvania. I mean, she came from a pretty conservative background. Her brother was there and other friends that worked in the business. And she was just a uniter of people. And it was such a waste. And she was so young and so beautiful and so smart and had a PhD. The, you know, they just lit a lot of different degrees. And so that one I write about, and I write about also kind of the re-victimization of her family as well, given what she did, the celebrity component of Drew Carey, even though they weren't even dating anymore.

But he was her friend, and he did speak out. And there was a bit of a circus element to it in some ways, too, which happens with high-profile cases. Yep. And the other case I wrote about, which also you probably would strike, it's still, it's also in Tennessee. It was the first murder case I ever covered. And it was a woman named Linda Lidam, who's still alive and still in prison. And she had taken on insurance policies fraudulently posing as her friend because her friend

had breast cancer. And she figured her friend was going to die. And she was going to cash in those insurance policies. and she made herself or her daughter or her husband, the beneficiary. Well, when the friend started to heal and seemed to be getting better, she decided to hire someone to kill her. And they burned down the house. They put a propit.

She gave her a propane tank and a grill for Christmas. Linda Leidham did, gave her friend. And then stored it in the house, which apparently is never done. I learned a lot about propane tanks. Yeah, you don't do that. And the house just, she had somebody go in there and just, light of fire. And as usual, the hitman was the squealer when he got arrested. And that one is a crazy case because it's, I wanted to call it, I do have a line with friends like these.

And this woman that killed her best friend, she was an accountant, she had plenty of money. So it's not really like, oh, poor white, you know, or black people with no money living in, you know, Tennessee. It took place in Hernando in the county there, and it's where John Brigham had tried his first case in that courthouse. And there's a picture of John Grisie. So it was, and the courthouse square looked like it was off of a lot of Universal Studios because it's the courthouse square there. It looked totally, it all was like a small town southern center square courthouse. Yeah. I kind of fell in love with Tennessee when I was doing that. So, and that was like 20 years ago. It was the first one I ever did. And I was doing it as a spec so I could sell it to

someone because I just started writing. I was a lawyer beforehand. So I just become a writer. So those are my four cases. But I'm going to tell you things about each of these that you don't know. And when I was covering the Linda Leedom case, this is how casual it was. She would go to the same ladies room as the rest of the people in, you know, in the court room. The job, you know, like, well, the judge had his own bathroom, but everybody else. So I go into the, and the judge was not a lady. So I went into the ladies' room and she was in there. And I knew we had a mutual friend who had alerted me to the case who lived in L.A.

He had grown up with this woman with the defendant. And we had a nice conversation in the ladies room, but it was really bizarre to be able to talk to a defendant. The course of a trial in a two-bathroom stall ladies' room. Is that the jurors can go in there too? Yeah. So it's, yeah, that's. But she had a guard with her. The guard didn't seem to mind me chatting with her.

And I wasn't recording anything. I was just listening. As soon as I left there, I went and wrote down everything she said. I don't blame you. And then I went to visit her after the trial, after she, you know, was on trial. So, yes, she was convicted by a lot of evidence. But anyway, there are four great stories. I think people wonder, when you watch a high-profile case, just like you were asking me about, you know,

what was happening with the Reiner case. When you cover a high profile case, there's things that nobody ever knows about. Yeah. And it gives you information. And I sort of intimate and show how that information is leaked. Defense attorneys do it in their own way without telling you anything specifically,

but was sort of painting a picture like Harlan did of the good guys and the bad guys. Or you could just get information from law enforcement. They tend to leak quite a bit. And that's why before a high-profile trial starts, the only information you have is the evidence against the defendant. You really don't get that much from the defense. So I think people need to keep that in mind before they so-called rush to judgment. Yeah, and I'll second that because, you know, obviously not to the level you have,

but there are families that I've dealt with that are part of, you know, pretty high-profile cases. And they'll tell me things and they're like, you know, don't make this public. And so I sit with it. It's interesting to know. but then you know you just don't you're like you I'm not going to betray the trust of the family on something like that so you sit with it but yeah there's a lot of stuff that goes on behind the scenes that if people knew it might in a good way you know change their mind especially when they want to just continue to blame people who aren't really part of it who are victims in this whole thing

as well so it sounds like what they were like the holly like holly's fame my goodness I can't believe they didn't all lose their minds the brother was filled with guilt the mom was, you know, praying all the time and she'd write in a prayer book every single night, which she showed me and she had like 12 of them. And it was every space, every side of the book, asking God to bring Holly Hong for three years. It's heartbreaking. Like I said, when I read that, you know, you went into such detail of kind of like those last few hours. I'm not going to give it away.

People can read it. But you went to such detail over the last few hours, like when you're sitting here, it's almost like you can picture it. you can kind of see, you know, and it's, this is clearly a very loving family, a daughter who was, who was who was very doted upon very much cared about by, you know, her, her mom and dad and, and sibling, you know, her brother. It's just a tragic story all around. I mean, it really is. It really is. A garden that was planted in her honor at a school. And, and I think that the family goes there to, to remember her. But I will always remember her. as I will other victims. No, I understand that.

Well, before we close out, anything else that we haven't talked about that you want to? Well, I just wanted to say I'm working on News Nation. If you want to know more about the Guthrie case, you should tune in to News Nation to see Brian Enten. I produced with him, and we've been in Tucson and kind of leading that coverage. I hope that she's found.

That's also like a horrible... It's a horrible case. And I think it resonates with all Americans or all people across the world. Actually, they're going to, you know, who have elderly parents and we do what we can to keep them safe. I know for me personally, it resonated very deeply.

But I also wanted to say for my book, I think that it might help people be a little less cavalier about these. cases. They are interesting. Yeah, they're interesting. And a lot happens, but they're real people involved. And you don't have to be cavalier about the defendants once they're convicted or even when they're pretty sure that they did it. But be cavalier. Don't be cavalier about these families. They go through so much. And there is a white, hot spotlight on them the entire time. And for the Bobos, it was years for the Harwick family, you know, still. couple of years. They knew that she was gone, but the trial, it takes a long time to come to trial for Robert Blake. He ultimately, I mean, he did not murder his wife. They never had any evidence. He was charged with murdering her. He was not charged with hiring someone to murder her. So what happened

there? We talk a lot about what the prosecution's choices were. Did they make the right choice in terms of what they charged him? And with, you know, With Linda Lita, that one is just, it's almost like you can't believe it, that somebody's best friend would do that. Like psychopathic. So psychopathic and the best friend, Linda Lidon, was so nice. I mean, I went to and chatted with her. One of the nicest, I mean, superficially nice, but she had another guy in mind. After she was done with Lula, she had already started another insurance scam with somebody who was mentally challenged.

So she was going to be a serial killer. Yeah, it sounds that way. But charming. Well, that's typically how Ted Bundy was charming. Yeah. So, you know, a lot of these, a lot of these people are, that's how they lure their victims, you know. And so, yeah, but a female serial killer is rare. And someone who helped arrange the funeral of somebody that she killed family.

That's a different level. It's a different level. It's like somebody wrote it like it's fake, but it wasn't. Yeah, it's like it's almost like a, yeah, it's like a Netflix series or some type of, you know, made for TV drama, American horror kind of episode sort of thing. No, it's terrifying though. You never know that, you know, that people are capable of such horrific things. And then they come in like, let's be your best friend while we're doing.

I mean, you hear about it from time to time, but it's like, oh, I'm going to plan the funeral. I'm going to do this. I'm here to help. But, you know, a lot of times that kind of stuff is let me get closer to this. So you think the closer I am, the further, you think that I'm going to be somebody who did. it. Well, the family still can't come to terms with the fact that she was there and helping and paying for stuff. And I'm like, it's crazy. Like what a bony, fake, horrible person she was or is. Yeah. Well, she gets to die in prison because of her actions. So.

In a rich outfit. You know what? Really bad outfit. Bright orange. No, it's not. It's like black and white. They have like... Oh, it's really that? It's like the old school kind of like...

Oh, it wasn't 20 years ago. Maybe they've changed to orange. I don't know. I have no idea. Black and white stripes again. Well, either one of them are good choices. You know, even if it's, I think, in Arizona, don't they do pink for like, are the one, like, sheriff does pink? She and pink?

I don't know. I don't remember. I don't remember. I know one of them did it kind of like it's an emasculating thing. Like, we're going to make the uniform is pink. So this was years ago, that could have changed too. Well, I mean, I can't wait to read the rest of the book. So this is going to air, just for people listening, this is going to air on the 27th.

So that means if you're listening to this a day that this comes out, the book is available tomorrow. No, it'll be available on. Yes, right, 28th. Yeah, so this is it come out on the 27th. And so you come back tomorrow, but it's also on pre-order so you can do that to it. I'm guessing Amazon, Barnes & Noble's everywhere books are sold. And then I'm going to ask you questions. Do you work with Brian Inton?

He's great in the field, but are y'all ever going to put him to be an anchor behind a desk? Because he would be phenomenal at that, too. He has subbed and he has done angry. I know. But I think we like to be on the field. Just as I could see that with him. We're working on something on Nancy got through. We like to be out.

We like to meet people. We like to investigate. We're investigative journalists. And Brian's very loved by the true crime community. So he can tell him he probably knows that. But they've given him a moniker of news, daddy. I don't know if you knew that. Yes, I did.

But I don't know. I don't know why. I've heard people scream it at him. Oh, that's hilarious. Daddy. Yeah. You know, let me just say one thing about Brian for his fans. If they're watching, he is who you see on TV.

He's that kind, wonderful, nice man. He's special. I've met him once at CrimeCon briefly, and he was very, very nice. That's who he is. Nothing fake about him. Well, Allison, thank you so much for joining us today. Congratulations on the new book. What an incredible career.

And anytime you want to come back and talk about these stories, you are welcome back anytime. Thank you, Justin. It was a pleasure. I think we'll see you guys next week. Thank you. Before you go, make sure that your first. following the show on Apple or Spotify and turn notifications on so you don't miss the next episode. And if you're listening, take a second and leave a five-star review. It really does help.

Next week, this is one you definitely don't want to miss. I'm going to be speaking with Dr. Kristen Middlman from Authrum Labs. And if you've never heard of Authum Labs, well, you have. You just don't realize it. They help bring to justice one of the most infamous names in recent true crime history. You see, author specializes in cases that are considered unsolvable, ones where DNA evidence may be minuscule or even compromised. Autum uses DNA technology that most people don't even realize exists. And you know how I just said they were instrumental in helping with a recent case? They were part of the process that helped identify Brian Coburger in the Idaho four murders. This was off of an incredibly small amount of touch DNA that came from the knife sheath and Kristen is going to talk about how they did it.

And I'm telling you, when you hear how this actually works, it changes how you look at everything regarding forensics. So seriously, make sure you're following because you're not going to want to miss this one. We'll see you next week. The views and opinions expressed in this episode are solely those of the individual speaking and do not necessarily reflect those of the host. Unheard is intended to provide a platform for personal stories and lived experiences, not to establish facts, determine guilt, innocence, or provide legal, medical, or professional advice. Listeners are encouraged to conduct their own research and form their own conclusions.

Thank you for listening to Unheard.