Unheard: True Crime in Their Own Words - What If Everything You Know About Charles Manson Is Wrong?

Episode Date: May 18, 2026

This isn't just another Charles Manson episode....For decades, the name Charles Manson has been synonymous with evil. The media painted him as a master manipulator, a cult leader capable of controlling minds, and the face of one of the most infamous murder cases in American history.But what if the story the public was told was never the full story?In this episode of Unheard: True Crime In Their Own Words, Justin Shepherd sits down with John Michael Jones — a man who developed a deeply personal relationship with Charles Manson over years of correspondence and conversations — alongside filmmaker Billie Mintz, director of the documentary Making Manson. Together, they explore the man behind the myth through unheard prison recordings, firsthand experiences, and years of research into one of the most controversial criminal cases in American history.The conversation challenges long-held beliefs surrounding the so-called “Manson Family,” the idea of mind control, and whether Manson became a scapegoat for a chaotic era America was desperate to make sense of. It also examines the role media narratives played in transforming Manson into something larger than life, often overshadowing the deeper complexities of the case itself.John Michael Jones shares what it was like communicating directly with Manson and witnessing sides of him the public never saw, while Billie Mintz discusses the process of creating Making Manson and the questions that emerged while digging through archival material, recordings, and decades of public mythology.The episode also dives into prison brutality, manipulation, redemption, societal fear, and the emotional burden carried by those connected to the case. At the center of it all is an important reminder: while history often turns killers into legends, the victims and the lives stolen should never be forgotten.This is not a glorification of Charles Manson. It is an attempt to understand how one man became a symbol, how narratives are shaped, and what happens when media mythology overtakes reality.Follow Unheard: True Crime In Their Own Words on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, and YouTube for more long-form conversations with survivors, investigators, journalists, insiders, and voices rarely heard in mainstream coverage.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Welcome to Unheard, True Crime in Their Own Words. This is the show where we strip away the headlines and let people speak for themselves, the victims, the families, and the voices that shape how these stories are told. Today's episode takes us deep into one of the most infamous names in American crime, Charles Manson. For more than 20 years, John Michael Jones recorded private prison phone calls with Manson, capturing a side of him the world has never heard. Those conversations are now the center of a new documentary series called Making Manson,

directed by Billy Mince. And together, John Michael and Billy join me to discuss what it means to hear Manson in his own words, the truths and contradictions of those tapes reveal in the impact of shining a new light on one of history's darkest figures. Thank you both for joining me today. That's for having us. So as I was saying to you guys before we started, this is one of those situations where you both know significantly more than I could even begin. You guys have probably forgotten more than I know at this point. So this is one of those things where I'm just going to kind of turn it over to you

and let you guys talk about this because in our conversations, Billy, what you shared me are things that people don't know. And I will say before I turn it over, I'm going to encourage everybody to watch Making Manson, which is streaming now on Peacock. What were the things that you remember? Like, what was the thing that sort of, you know, sparked some inspiration for you to look further into it to help us start off? You're talking about me? Yeah, Justin, when you said this, yeah. Well, I mean, honestly, it was from one of our phone calls that we had prior to this, where you kind of I don't want to give too much away at the front end, but you know,

where you kind of talked about where maybe he just, maybe he wasn't the one who gave the orders. Maybe it was all. And so that, to me, that's fascinating because it really changes the entire dynamic of what people think they know regarding this case. You know,

it's very old. You hear Charles Manson, it's been, you know, what, six decades, seven decades now. And,

you know, a lot of people, you know, know it from infamy and the stories, but a lot of people don't remember it firsthand unless they're older. And so I think that what you've done and what John Michael Sump or James Help is you've kind of completely redefined the narrative in the way we know this case.

You know, I think one of the biggest things that came from this, one of my proudest moments was Time Magazine did a pretty big article on not just the documentary, but on our idea. of what we think Manson was. And I think the headline was something in the fashion of, it's time we went back into history and rethink what our idea of what Manson was. And, you know, up until meeting JM, you know, I always thought that, for whatever thought I put into this topic,

I thought that Manson was responsible for ordering these murders through mind control. And I never gave it a second thought. I was like, oh, yeah, of course. He controlled their minds. And, you know, but then, you know, when you think about it, like, what does that even mean? Like, I, Manson controlled people's minds,

like a magician of some sort. So, you know, we're told things in history that we just take, you know, there are many things that we're told in history that we just take at face value. Oh, yeah, Manson did. this history was this until we're presented with like yeah but did he or what does that even mean and uh you know to to respond to what you're saying is you know the question is is was manson a mind controller what does mind controller mean like what does it mean to control people's minds is that

you know, a real thing. And did he order the murders? And, you know, you don't have to look too far to see, well, you do have to look a little far because maybe you got to read the transcripts. And these are like the longest court transcripts ever. So who said, who said that Manson ordered the killings? And you don't, people don't look that far to who said. And the truth is, and I'll answer that for you, is that nobody said. At least in the trial, and Jim, correct me if I'm wrong, but at least in the trial of Manson that found him guilty of ordering these murders, there was not one witness that came forward and said that he ordered the murders, because nobody heard him. And it only came after the fact when the guy who actually did the

murders, Tex Watson, in his trial, which after he watched the whole trial, or was privy to what happened in the trial. The guy who did the murders is the one post trial, post-conviction, was the one who said, oh yeah, Manson told me to do it. Well, no, actually, he testified to,

I did it because I thought that's what Manson wanted me to do. Right, right. You know, the same guy, the guy who said, I had his voices in my head. So, like, we're to believe, were to believe that Manson controlled people's minds when one person, the guy who did the killing, says,

oh, because I heard him in my head. So it's like, you know, if I were just, you know, Justin, if I, like, were to leave this thing and I start hearing you talking to me, clearly it's you. It's not me. It's not that I'm crazy. It's clearly you. And I just want to be clear.

And like, you know, we're about to get into this. is like, I am in no position to, you know, speak on behalf of Charles Manson or exonerate Charles Manson. That may be something, JM, you know, that's not my role in life. But I'm just like, what are the facts? And I spoke, you know, he was convicted off of these circumstantial things of a story that was, you know, written that convinced a jury because in court, we're not like really there to find the truth. were there to who justice is about who wins the trial who's got the better story and vincent

bulliosi had the better story but um you know i spoke to all of the people that like you know the the people that surrounded manson you know him him being one of them and uh you know all the characters that are responsible for the narrative of the manson we know and and i don't think journalists before this project that we did really put this story to the test.

They never had the courage to question the narrative. Or they never had the incentive. They never had the incentive because, you know, telling this helter-skelter story sells records. So why,

you know, why go against that story? But I think we're in a new age. where we're a little more vigilant, hopefully, for the truth, or at least to point out that we don't have the truth. I think that that's a fair point. I think it's a good way of putting it. And I got to just say, Billy, it's like you were made to do this.

This is your show today now. I'm turning it over to you. I really was. He's great at that. Billy started a podcast. Billy's got to, without even knowing this, like when Billy and I first met, Billy has a connection, an off little connection to this case, and he didn't even know it.

And it's just weird how things tie themselves together. And I'll give you an example, like Billy was doing research for the film, and he would call and text me every once in a while. And he says, hey, have you, you know where Danny DeCollo is? And I said, no, I have no idea. Nobody does. And he says to me, he's like, is there any way you think we can find him? and I go, I don't know. The last I heard, he was in LA homeless.

He goes, how did you know that? I says, about 10 years ago, I saw a video on YouTube of a guy who just did a video, a self-video driving his car, saying, hey, I just ran into Danny DeCollo and had a beer with him. I didn't know who he was until he told me. And this guy did the video. He goes, can you send me that video? I said, yeah, and I sent Billy the video. After I hunted it down and found it, and Billy called me right away.

He's like, where the hell did you get this video? I told you, I just saw it on YouTube like 10 years ago. He's like, that's my ex-roomate from film school. No, no, no, no. He wasn't my ex-roomie. He's just a- Someone you knew from film. Somebody I was saying, what? Who died, who was murdered in Belize.

And so that was the first time I'd heard of him since he died. Like, you know, he was murdered? He was murdered in Belize. Yeah. filmmaker. He was trying to start the film industry over in Belize and he ended up being stabbed and it was just a big mystery of who did it. But it was just this wild thing of like

being visited by this. He was a wonderful guy, Matthew. And I hadn't seen or talked about him because I'm not in touch with anybody that knew him. And then for all of a sudden him to show up, it was like getting a visit from the dead. It was wild. It's really crazy. But, you know, I noticed that about this case. In my being, even me, when I first started writing, Charlie, I thought he was the hippie cult leader, brainwash, crazy.

I was raised to believe that. And like Billy just said, I had no reason to doubt that. Any other, anything other than that. And even when I first met him, he played the role. He had the mask on. And it was over, slowly over time that I began to see things didn't make sense in this case, which, you know, it inspired me to do more in-depth research on my own. And I've noticed that about anybody that really looks into the facts of this case,

they all come to the same conclusion. And it's that there's something wrong here. And I think that's one of the reasons why this case refuses to do. die to this day. It's just the official narrative is absolute nonsense and getting back to Tex Watson. The one thing that nobody ever questions was the state of mind he was in that night. Like what drugs was he on? Like what I know now, but these are things that no one ever thinks of. Like he claims that Manson told him to do it, but not with his words. He, you know, with his mind. It's like, of course he's on.

whacked down on our drugs. Who thinks like that, you know? Especially back then. Especially back then. And who commits these heinous crimes? I mean, these are brutal heinous crimes. And up until he died, that was one thing

that I think Charlie was distanced himself from was the murder of a pregnant woman. That's suicide for any inmate. Anybody raised on the street like Charlie and I was. You know, you don't go killing women. You just don't do that.

Not in our world. You die for things like that, you know? So things like that just didn't make sense to me. And slowly over time, I began to question, ask Charlie's questions about, did this really happen or did that happen? Did you say this? Did you do that? And it all just came together for me, just like Billy.

You know, it all came together for Billy. He began to question. And it's like anyone I talked to. If I start to defend Manson, then the slightest, I'm brainwashed. I'm a follower and he's controlling you with his mind. Yeah. Oh, yeah, yeah, you're a brainwashed follower. You know, I've heard that I had to deal a lot with that in the making of this is, you know,

the amount of shade that people sent your way, Jam, that like, you know, because you had these tapes or because you spoke so passionately about Charles Manson that you were clearly a crazy person. And, you know, it doesn't matter the way you behaved, like that you were always a gentleman, you were always a very articulate, very sensitive person, is that because of your advocating of Charles Manson, that you were clearly crazy.

And so there were a lot of times where I had to, like, you know, bring reality into the fact of, like, let's stop making this false premise that J.M. is some crazy guy because he's not. And he just has a, you know, a particular point of view on something based on his findings, 20 years. Well, based on experience that nobody but him has, too. Exactly. And, you know, it's, this is 20 years of recordings, sometimes three recordings a day. And so, and it wasn't like, hey, so tell me about this part of the case. Tell me about this part of the case.

These were needles and haystacks that we had a team of literally five people for months listening to and sharing at the end of every day. So we had to find those pieces. You know, you know, Jam wasn't the asshole. We were the assholes. We were the ones that like, oh, that's all we were interested in. We weren't interested in, you know, actually interesting things about Charles Manson. We were like, what will sell tickets to the show? So we had a lot of digging to do because that's not what these tapes were about.

They were not, I mean, it was a journalistic endeavor, but that's not what the intention was. The intention was this was like having a front row seat being a voyeur to two men's relationship that you very seldomly like have no reason to listen to, let alone get the access to. And there's something that you said that I kind of want to go back. And when I talk about this, and I think I've already referenced it too many times in other episodes of this. But you said something how immediately, you know, when you mentioned it, any type of defense against Charles Manson, people immediately shut you down. What I've kind of discovered in this world, the true crime world, is that people decide what they know about this case. No matter what that is, they decide, this is what we know, and that narrative is not going to change.

And I think the Menendez brothers recently is a more recent case. That's a very good example of that because there's been a total push, you know, lately to have them, you know, where they're at now to be able to get parole, to go up against a parole board, which they did and bailed their first try. But I've covered that story extensively and there's still people who just are adamant about the fact that they did this in cold blood. They did it for the money and they ignore any additional facts that prove otherwise. think that that's kind of what you're dealing with. Now, the other thing before we go further, that I'm going to throw a bunch of questions

at you or a couple things at you, and I'm sorry for that for the listeners. And Billy, I could do this, but I'm going to task you with this because you're just so good at this and you show your own show. He's so good at this. He's got to be for it too. But, you know, let's give people a little bit of a, you know, for the younger generations who might not know, give them a little bit of a, you know, history on on the case, on the the Tate La Bianca murders.

And then what I want to know from from both of y'all separately, and if you need me to repeat any of this, that's okay. Billy, I'd like to know what sparked your interest in doing this film. And, J.M., I'd like to know what sparked your interest in writing that first letter. So whatever order, do y'all want to do that, you guys, you figure amongst your stuff. Well, let's start with the fact that I really knew absolutely nothing about Charles Manson. I mean, I knew who he was. I knew of the book, Helter Skelter.

I've never read anything. All I knew was that he was this mass murderer. That's it. And I didn't even know that because I paid absolutely no attention to this case. And when, you know, it just came to me as like there was a lot that happened behind the scenes between JM and the production company renowned films. They, uh, they just approached me. And I was like, you know, auditioning for the job. And I think like, because my wife was so excited about me doing this.

And I think that's how I got the job was that I just like expressed to the execs at at Peacock saying, hey, listen, you will make me the coolest husband in the world. You got to give me this. And that was that was my motivation into it. And then I think there was, you know, a period of just like having to learn about it. And so what what we knew before JM, brought this archive to the world, we knew the cultural Manson,

this idea of that Manson ran a cult, which is, you know, in my opinion, after looking to this, it was not a cult. It was one commune of thousands of communes at the time that happened to be, you know, at the forefront of it

was this man who was a lot older, who was also, you know, a person who spent his life in jail. So that's one thing that was debunked right away. And that he controlled this group of young women and some men into creating a, you know, a mass murder trail of killing people in order to bring upon a race war.

Again, I mean, this is a story that borrows from so many other stories, including the Bible. So all of the helter-skelter stuff is literally lifted straight from the Bible. So you think like, oh, my God, that's such a crazy story. Who could believe such a thing? Anybody who believes such a thing is crazy. Yet this story is straight from the Bible. It's the revelation story of what happens at the end of the world. world. So, you know, but people, they don't know it even like a lot of Christians don't even know

the Bible that well. So when you look into all of these tropes that were used, you see that they're all borrowed from different places in order to tell this like false story about the killing. And it's it's in our nature to want to know why something so senseless happened. And at the time, you know, you don't have a very sophisticated world and you don't have sophisticated journalist who I, you know, Ivor Davis is, you know, the first storyteller. You know, Vincent Bouliosi got most of his stuff from Iver Davis who wrote five, what was it, five easy ways to die. Five to die.

Five to die. And he's a beautiful man. He's a good friend of mine. But I don't think at the time he was a young man and I don't think he was that sophisticated in getting to the bottom of something that wasn't his beat to be an investigative. And he just sort of went with the story that came to him that sold books. So, you know, there was never a real hard journalistic look because there was an agenda around the story and the agenda was to convict to find somebody to blame for these murders.

and nothing like a big story that's going to sell a lot of books that would do that. And at the same time, like there's even a larger thing that was going on is that our society was about to go into chaos. Vietnam War was happening. You know, Watergate was happening, was brewing at the time. There was all of this terrible stuff that was going on. And society needed a, it needed a scapegoat. It needed some way to take the violence that. that was happening. It was going from the hippie movement to like, you know, to complete pandemonium

revolution. And so that's where Manson came on was that they found a perfect scapegoat to take all of this angst that was happening in the world and put it on. And it's like, oh, you know, we don't have a problem. As a society, we got Manson. Manson's the problem. And so that's historically, when we can look at it now, what happened. But at the time, you know, we couldn't look at it that way. And we didn't have the information. And we didn't have somebody like J.M. Who was willing to get to know this very strange individual

who at his own peril put himself in trouble. Because he didn't spend his time trying to defend himself because he thought it was ridiculous what they were saying about him. And he figured it would all, and correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm putting myself in, in, in, in Charles Manson's shoes, but he figured it would just all get worked out. And here was a great platform for him, because he was such a performer. It was like, you know what? Fuck me. Fuck you. And you want me to be the monster. Well, and here it is. And thinking that like this could not lead to anything. And at the same time, he was also protecting his friend because that was. his mentality. He comes from prison. He's not going to snitch on his friends. He doesn't know his friends are selling him down the river at the time. And he's just protecting them. And he's spent his life in prison. So like, you know, a little more time in prison isn't going to, you know, hurt him anymore. And at the same time, I'm going to use this as a platform to get out my truth. And so that's my

sort of like, you know, philosophical, academic understanding of what happened. It's amazing that you say that because Bobby Boussela was quoted as, and this is a fact. This is not hearsay or speculation. Manson told God word to Bobby during when Bobby was arrested for him and was killing. You know, blame me because, you know, one of us out is better than two of us in. And that was the attitude Manson had is just blame me because look, I didn't do it

so they can't convict me. He really believed in his heart of hearts that there's no evidence that puts me at the scene of the crime because I wasn't at the scene of the crime. I can prove where I was. Just blame me. You know?

And I don't know if he really thought it would get as far as it did. Of course not. He didn't. He even told me he didn't. You know, but at the time, me, you know, who would have saw it turn into the circus that it turned into? I mean, if you look back and you watch the very beginning stages of that trial, look at the Manson that's sitting

in that courtroom. It's the, it reads Joseph Ball's assessment of Manson to a T. Which is. I know, soft-spoken, you know, polite, well-mannered Southern boy with a brilliant mind. If you read Joseph Ball's assessment of Manson, that's the Charles Manson I knew. And if you cut and then turn it back on mid-trial, you got a whole, you get two different people. You got the wild, long-haired, crazy-eyed, wild goate, manson never had a beard in his life. If you look at the vet, when Manson was first arrested and appeared before the judge for the first time, he had short hair and clean shaving. He wasn't allowed, he wasn't allowed to shave in, uh, in prison. So this whole bearded guy, that we know Manson as.

It was not, that wasn't even Manson. That was the Manson that happened out of circumstance. And, and because he didn't want to like, you know, sell out. So he just kept it for a bit. And then obviously got rid of at all. But even just to back what you're saying, Jam, even the sheriff who initially arrested Manson, you know, was not arresting Manson for anything else, but for like arson and for, you know, creating trouble in, in their small town of independence, I think it was. And when he found out that, you know, this was the guy that they were looking for after he was already, you know, in prison, he even said, like, there's no way that they, the guy that I arrested is responsible for leading a cult and killing all these people. And the one thing that was consistent about every single person that I spoke to that was

close to Manson that ends up being his accuser, you know, throughout the collective Manson period of this 50 years afterwards, all said that they were shocked. You know, because this was, the murder was, uh, the murderers were at large for three, or four months after the murder. And so this was looming over everybody. And when they found out his closest people who end up becoming his accusers, found out that it was Manson that they were accusing. All of their response to this day was, I was shocked.

So it's consistent that nobody could put it together that the person that they knew Manson is being, was the killer. It happened over 50 years of this collective Manson that we've created, that it is not the real Manson, it's our Manson, the Manson that lives in our head. If you listen to my calls and Billy's listened to them all probably, you've got two different mansons,

the public persona and the guy beneath the mask. and I really believe that during the trial, they drove this man absolutely insane. Like, they tortured him behind the scenes, back in the cells. I mean, they were doing things to him that are unspeakable. Like, you would not believe that these people who we wouldn't think of they're hired to protect him were torture. him. And I'll give you a few examples. They would

buzz, like that Charlie's cell would just open up in the middle of the night, and they would take him out and throw him in a cell with a bunch of black guys, thinking, you know, because here's the guy that wanted a race war. Here, here's your race war. And just close the door and walk away. And of course, Charlie was at Hartie's been in prison this whole life. Charlie knew how to talk to these people. you know, inmates, that is.

And sometimes it worked out. Sometimes he didn't. You know, but there are times where Charlie got the shit beat out of him. They wouldn't let him cut his hair. They wouldn't let him shower. They wouldn't let him use the phone. They wouldn't let him have a paper. They wouldn't let him have a pencil.

Even when he was given his pro per and the right to defend himself, they wouldn't give him access to the law library. They wouldn't let him make phone call. They wouldn't let him have visits. Manston had his own set of rules, and then all the other roommates had their set of rules. Anything Manson wanted was against the rules. You know, there's an interview at Nicholas Shrek where Charlie says, you know, if I wanted a bucket of shit, they would say,

oh, no, he's not joking when he says that. That's true. And that lasted all the way up through San Quentin to the day he died. I spent more of my relationship with Manson, and I think that's what brought us closer together was my willingness to fight that prison for his rights. Like, I spent more of my time and money fighting that prison. You know, and you would think, like, why?

But there's not, why, why is it not okay for him, but okay for the rest of the population? That's just the way they treated him. They brutalized this man in ways that you would not believe. and Charlie got into detail with me in some of my calls. I think Billy might have heard a few of them, but they've done some pretty horrific shit to him. So, you know, you see him lashing out,

but they don't tell you why he's lashing out, why he's acting that way. Mansell got to a point where it was he knew nothing I said was going to change. Nothing. I was convicted in the eyes of the media before I was even given a fair trial. and I never was given a fair trial. You want the fucking boogeyman, I'll give you the boogeyman.

You know, that's what it was. That's what it all boiled down to. But then it got to a point where Manson knew if he didn't act nuts, and they put him in general population, he wouldn't last 24 hours. They're going to find the first young punk that's going to look to make a name for himself to go down in history as the man to kill the boogeyman, and Charlie knew it. There was more assassination attempts on Manson's life

than the media ever reported. They reported a few, like the time he was burnt, lit on fire. You know, a couple of, but man, they created PHU for him and Sirhan, Sirhan, but mainly for Manson because they couldn't put him in general population. What's PHU? Protective housing unit. and um

because that Manson act that you saw that mask that that was not him I promise you that that was far from it that was a that was his means of survival

Manson lived in a world you and I and we would never last a weekend the conditions that that man survived he he was a warrior to the day died. And what blew my mind looking back in hindsight, and if you listen to Mike calls and Billy

will tell you, there were some times he was depressed and down. But for the most part, that man had an unbroken spirit. He was the most positive. He always found the good and shit. You know, very rarely had a bad thing to say about anybody. Very rarely ever complained. You know, Every day is a good day, soldier. That's what he would say. Every day that I'm alive and breathing this air is a good day. And I would think, my God. And you know, and you always hear him preaching about Atwal, you know,

airtree, about saving the environment and this. And then I'm like, do, man, how can you love a world that has done nothing but fucking shit on you? You know? But he did all the way up to the end. That's why I couldn't believe. He's like, here's a man fighting for life. But yeah, you claim that all he is is about. death. Manston doesn't, they have a violent bone in his body, just wasn't in him.

And I don't know how to read people like that. I grew up in the streets of Boston, I grew up in Charleston in part of Boston, so one square mile section of Boston, around some pretty brutal characters, you know, and Manson just wasn't one of those people. He just wasn't. No, he was raised up with some of the same people I was, you know, that kind of, underwent. world type shit. But Manson always, whenever I noticed violence, Manson always found a way out. He didn't want no part of it.

Even when the murders took place, Manson knew, I think, I think Manson knew what Texan and them were going to go out and do that night. I really do. Well, he talks about that. He says that he knew what they were going to do, but what was he going to do?

Tell me shit. I don't want to know. And just to be clear, I've done that in my life. Some of my friends are acquaintances of mine. I just happened to be in the wrong room at the wrong time and hear the wrong. I'm like, oh, fuck, I'm out of here. Right, but just to be clear, this man was no saint.

He was not, you know, he was innocent of these murders. But even that, let's just focus on that. Like, he still had some responsibility that he did not live up to. in the height of these murders, but he's also not the world policeman. Like, it's not his job. And here's, this is a guy who spent his entire life, incarcerated, abused, you know, from a child, like raped by priests, raped by other child inmates, like when he's like eight, nine years old. I mean, this guy did not have a normal life.

was a failure of our system. He was a reflection of the brutality of our system and what happens to children when they fall in between the cracks. And I want to just always be clear because in juxtaposition with JM is like, I'm not on the Manson Innocence Project. You know, I'm not on like, I'm not the Manson was a great guy. And I'm not saying he wasn't a great guy. That's just not my view.

point and not where I stand. But, you know, there is a reason why he didn't say anything. There is a reason why he didn't stop these things from happening. He was a criminal. He was a lifelong criminal. He was a, you know, he was a product of our society. And so when we look at things more on a, on a level of forensics to understand why, because at the end, you know, we also, like I just think about the victims, right? I think about the families of the victims who, you know, see us talking like, oh, Manson was a great guy.

He was my best friend, you know. But I understand the victim's family where it's like, they want to know why their family members went through such a terrible ordeal, and they subsequently went through such a terrible ordeal in their lives. But the reason they've been told is not the real reason. It's not the truth. And so it's important for the victims, for the people who were murdered,

that their stories are told and that their stories are told properly. And so when we just create this comic book villain of Manson, that is not the reason why their family died. And I do believe Manson had responsibility in the death for sure. But it's not the responsibility. Even Sharon Tate's mother didn't blame Manson. Yeah. He never did the father.

None of them did. Right. And she was actually, she spoke out about that. You know, Sharon Tate's mother spoke out and saying this is not a real story. And that's what's important to me is not to exonerate Manson is to tell the story of who Manson really was. Not that he was like some saint angel

that like, you know, he was involved with these people and he knew what was happening. But like, let's think about it as like, what was he supposed to do about it? You know, especially not just what was you and I do about it, but we don't share the same moral universe that Manson may have. have shared. Like the moral universe is not this absolute sort of thing like this is what we're

supposed to think. And we don't have the history that Manson had that led to the decisions that he made. And what's important is that we understand why he made the decisions he made and understand what led up to those, not just some like shallow two-dimensional explanation. It's a lot more specific and nuance. And what we have in these tapes is we've got the nuance. We've got a lot of the pieces, putting together the ideological bias that both JM and Manson has and, you know, versions of truth. But we certainly have a lot more than what we had before with the Helter Skelter and then, you know, 50 documentaries and books that all just are mirrors of Helter Skelter. except, you know, goodbye, Helter Skelter,

which is, you know, the first account, true account of what happened, truer account. Getting back to what you were just saying, Billy, one thing I noticed about Manson because, you know, I come from the streets.

You know, I was a criminal at once. That's one thing him and I had in common. But Manson was a common, like a comic criminal. Like the thing, he did, the crimes he committed were hilarious. They were fun. There was no violence involved.

There was no, I'm talking, you know, before the murders. And even that rape, when he raped that young boy and held a razor to his neck, the true story of that is, is that was a kid that he hung out with and the boys were formed school. They got caught diddling each other. And Charlie wanted to do it again. And the kid said, no, I don't want to get caught. And Charlie says, if we get caught, we'll just say, I told you that. I made you do it.

And Charlie, true to his word, they got caught. But the one thing that they left out was that little boy, he molested, was four years older than him. You know, it's like, Charlie was the little boy in that. But there was no rape. But other than that, there was no violence in his record. It was all pimping, you know, prostitution, which was, horseshit. These were girls that he knew

that were putting it out anyways. He might as well get paid for it. We got to eat. I mean, it was also the time, right? This is like, that's what he was. A matter of survival. He did it because that's all he knew how to do. Charlie didn't know carpentry or trade. Jolly was a criminal. There's a great... There's a great anecdote that he talks about. And I just want to be clear about the pimping. I'm not to

excusing his pimping. I'm saying like that was his criminality. That's what he was. And there are pimps in the world. And he learned from pimps. And that was what he was attempting to do. And so, but there's this great story, this great story he tells. This is my favorite one.

It didn't make it into the show. But where he steals, he says he's stealing cars for the mob in Cincinnati. And then he delivers the car to Cincinnati, and he gives the address. And I don't know if I told you, but I, you know, I hunted it down. The place didn't exist. And, you know, I spoke to like that I spoke to the city of Cincinnati. Like I went pretty deep. It was a barber shop or something.

And I'm not saying it didn't exist. I'm saying, you know, I couldn't find it. And then the guy who bought the, who bought the car off of him didn't have the money and gave him like a box. of guns, like broken guns. And Frank Sinatra records. And Frank Sinatra records. And then says, I'll give you the money. And then, so he doesn't give him the money.

And then so Manson steals the car back from him. And, and then he drives it to, that's Cincinnati. Then he drives all the way to Florida and gets on this boat that's going towards Cuba of these like, uh, revolutionaries that are, you know, on their way to Cuba, these criminals and,

and revolutionaries that are, they're on their way on a boat to Cuba. Keep my, the gun had no triggers. Yeah, no, and the guns don't work. And so somehow he misses,

he, he's stuck on the boat, like, and the boat leaves shore. Like, he was like a terrible criminal. And the boat, he said,

he, the boat leaves shore. And then they find out, like, while, you know, they figured out that they, he,

sold them these like you know shitty guns and so he jumps off the boat and this is like you know and he and he swims to the coast and then he uh you know leaves the car behind ends up back in california where he like meets this interestingly enough this like guy who works for life magazine and uh ends up um you know he's being called back to court or something and then he convinces the guy who works for Life magazine or he himself starts working for Life magazine at the time as well and he convinced him to give his ID. So he takes this guy's ID and then he goes to like Arizona where he starts, he works at this hotel that's on the border of Mexico and Arizona where he's like throwing weed over or or money or something over the border and getting the weed or something. So he's like smuggling. And somehow he ends up getting.

and caught and that's where he ends up going back to prison because of the car. They trace the car from earlier that he stole back to him and that's what gets him back in prison. But it's just this like, it's kind of like, you know, Charles Manson is the Forrest Gump of criminal history of America. Because like we kind of just like follow him and there's all these like people that knew him that like shared prison time with him like Danny Trejo, uh, etc that like you have all these stories about, um, about I kind of mix him as a,

he's a mix of Forrest Gump and I don't know if you've seen the movie or read the book being there by Jersey Kaczynski about Chauncey Gardner who, uh, you know, was this gardener who was kind of slow. I'm not saying Charlie was slow, but I think there was some slowness to him on some level. he was you know and and you know these things that chauncey gardner says in in being there he's like this slow gardener but people like get meaning from from what he says and he ends up leading up to advising the president and all he's talking about is gardening but people get like these meanings from him and i think like you know when you think about charles manson comes out of jail the middle of the hippies like these 14 15 16 year olds or like following around like little lost puppies

and they're on acid and they're on drugs. And like anything Charlie says is profound to them because, you know, they're stupid kids. And, uh, and I think it's just like this sort of like tempest of like this sort of storm of of circumstance that comes around that sort of made this like unbelievable story, which is like an untrue story. But he was, he was, I'm not just saying this because I love the guy, But I'm being honest. Like, he could have been a comedian.

Like, Charlie had the greatest sense of humor. And I think any human being, I don't care, what walk a life you come from, if you meet somebody that just makes you laugh, belly laugh all the time. You just want to be around that person. Serizma. Because you're brainwashed or, you know, he's got you under his spell. It's just that humans, you know, there's certain people in your life that make you feel really good, you know. And then there's some people in your life that make you feel really good, you know.

And then there's some people you'd be around, they walk in the room, the fucking fish die. You know, the oxygen just sucks out of the room. He wasn't like that. Charlie, like I said earlier, just found the positive in everything. And he lived such a carefree life. And I think it just attracted people. And I'll be honest with me, I was using him at first. I was hustling him.

Like, I came into that relationship just trying to get some. mortographs to fucking sell online. I was just a kid from the streets of Boston trying to make a hustle and it worked. And little did I know I was being hustled at the same time. We were hustling each other because I didn't know Manton came from the same streets. I did not literally, but raised up by gangsters and thugs and criminal. I didn't know that about him. I thought he was some hillbilly from Kentucky that, you know, was some hippie cult leader. You know, I didn't know shit about him. I didn't study him. But, you know, for some reason I couldn't get the son of a bitch to write me back. So what I did was I started watching videos, though, because like Billy, I didn't

know nothing about him. You know, my very first recollection of Manson, I was probably six when I saw the movie Helter Skelter, and I was scared shit. I was a little kid. I'll never forget that. But anyway, after he wrote me back, I finally got him to write me because I'm like, I'm going to make him think I believe he's innocent. That'll get him to write me. You know, because the whole hippie cult leader act wasn't working. He wasn't writing me back. And because I noticed that one thing about him in all of his videos that I watched at that time, he just kept repeating the same shit. I didn't do this.

You know, I'm not guilty. I didn't order these credit. That's the one thing that stayed consistent throughout all of his interviews. And I'm like, man, this guy thinks he's innocent. So, all right, I'll play that role. And it worked. He wrote me back. And it started from there.

And over time, I started to realize, like, fuck man maybe this guy might be innocent maybe he didn't do this you know but Charlie would always when he first met someone he played that Manson mask he perfected it

and uh I started slowly getting glimpse of the man underneath that mask and that's when I started to really dive deep into this case but

I think it was was when he told me the story of being in the boys' home. I think he was like 10. I don't remember 9. He was, he didn't commit no crime. He just, he'd had nowhere to go. And he was being molested. He was being beaten up. He was, just kept his back to the door, he said. If I just kept my back to the door, you know, they wouldn't see me. And he, he talked about sitting at this window waiting for someone to come get him because that's all that took to get him out of there was someone

to just want the guy or the kid at the time he was a little boy and how cars would pull in and every time a car would pull in his heart would start fluttering only to see another little boy leave you know and that just touched me because I was that little boy at one time sitting at the window of a reform school waiting for someone to come get me and I think it was that phone call where I swore that I would never hurt this guy. I would never use him for, I just, I think it was right then and there is when it became real for me.

And if you notice Billy and my calls, do you ever hear me bring up the crimes? No, I never, I wanted me. He was the only time, if he brought it up, we discussed it. Other than that, we'd never discuss it. Because I wanted to be the only bit of normalcy in his life. I wanted to be that outlet for him.

You know, I didn't want to talk about the crimes. I wanted to talk about him and what he did that day or what he needed or what the prison was doing to him at the time, what violations we had to fight. And it became a genuine friendship. And I think it was when I got mad at it. at him for the first time and I mean mad and I we had this huge I I lost it on him and I hung up on him and I didn't take his calls for like a month or two and uh this call is recorded by the way I have this call and he said to me I answered it by mistake and he's like please don't

don't hang up don't hang up so I let I put the call through and he just said to me, listen, let me explain. Maybe if you hear me, you'll understand, please, he's like, my whole wife, people have come and go. He's like, I've gotten used to you. Don't leave. You know, and man, hearing him say that. Like, and he's like, you know, I, and he explained himself, you know, and I felt like the biggest hunk of shit, because I never, ever looked at it in his eyes. I didn't understand the life he was living and the shit he had to face. And from that day forward, I don't think I ever stopped. Like, when I'm telling you, 18 years consistent, I was probably the only person that stayed in his life because so many people

will come and go, use them and take off. Whenever someone got a little bit of attention or they got what they wanted from them, they just fucking threw them away. And I wasn't one of those people. I mean, I was in the beginning, and I think it was also the guilt of living with that that kept me concerned about

what was best for Charlie, not for myself. And even to this day, I catch shit for it. So I know. Just some context for that story, Jam, you were spending a lot of resources and time trying to get him out of prison

and you were getting very, very close to the fact that... Two years of my life. All right. Manston had this thing. I would say, though, I love you, brother. And he goes, you don't love me? If you love me, get me the fuck out of here. You know, get me out of here.

So I did. I just sat at the computer one day and I just wrote, who's the best defense attorney to fight the government? Back in, it was like the early 2000s, and Jerry Spence's name popped up. And I didn't know who he was at the time, but he fought a government against Ruby Ridge. This guy was a well-known defense attorney.

And I started writing him. And I asked him, I didn't tell him, who my friend was. I just said I had a friend that was wrongfully convicted for a pretty, you know, infamous crime. And he wrote me back. And we got to talking and I still got the emails. I saved it all. But when he found out who my friend was, you know, he was like, you got a better shot of trying to get some black guy off death row. getting that guy out of prison. And he's like, you got a pretty good argument.

You know, he's like, but I'm retired. He's like, but I'll tell you what, if you, if you can come up with any new evidence, because that's the only thing that's the only hope you got. He's like, you need something new. And after a case this old, good luck. He's like, but I'll come out of retirement and I'll help you. And I swear if it wasn't a week went by, the Tex-Watson. tapes rid their ugly heads.

Tex Watson's attorney died in Texas, and in his safe were confession tapes of Tex Watson that he had while Tex was fighting extradition. And the Los Angeles district attorney's office was fighting for those tapes. So I picked up the phone called Jerry Spence. I says, hey, these tapes, is that? He's like, that's enough. that's new evidence. But nobody's heard those tapes, correct?

Like still to this day, they won't release them. They won't release them. But to make a long story short, I got, well, I can't take all the credit. Me and Nicholas Shrek, we got the case in front of an attorney, a young attorney who was willing to take the case, and all we needed was Charlie to sign his fucking name.

That's it. Just sign you a fucking name. something he did a hundred times a day. He would sign shit for inmates and they would hustle it and sell it, you know. Just sign your name one time and he wouldn't do it. And I was fucking furious because I spent two years of my life to get to that point. And all you need to do is sign your fucking name and you won't do it. And he just, he wouldn't do it.

And I just fucking hung up on him. I said, don't ever fucking call me again. Boom. And I hung the phone up. I was. And I just, I get emotional thinking about it to this day because I was that close until that phone call I told you where I accidentally answered it.

And he's like, please just hear me out. And why didn't he sign it? He said to me, I don't want to live in your world. And I said, you know what, Charlie saved me the fucking bullshit. Listen, let me explain, man. He's like, I don't want to, where am I going to go? I go, you come here with me.

I got a fucking spare room. You can, this is my thinking back then, right? And he said, come on, man. He said, then what? I destroy your family. You won't. There'll be fucking news people out in your house at all hours. And he's like, I don't think you realize.

what you get yourself into, man. I said, Charlie, stop. I go, just stop, man. I said, then why did you let me waste two years of my fucking life? He said, because I didn't think you'd do it, man. He's like, you know how many times people come in my life and tell me they're going to help me? He's like, I didn't believe you, soldier. He said, but you did it and you scared. I got scared.

He said, look, I mean, I don't want to buy a gun. I go, why would you need to buy a gun? He goes, man, I don't want to have to carry a gun. I don't want to have to look over my shoulder every day. He said, what am I going to go when you go to work every day? What am I going to do? Sit in my room. I'll be in prison.

I might as well stay here where I'm safe. And would he said that? Bro, I just fucking lost it. Because I never considered that. It made me think, like, did I do this for him or me? You know what I mean? It was all about what I wanted. What I want you here?

He asked you to get him out, though. But he didn't think I would do it. He didn't think I would. He's like, man, you know, many people told me they were going to help me. He said, I had lawyers telling me they were going to help me just to get me to sign shit. You know, and then they would disappear. He's like, you're the only one that's ever done in it. He's like, brother, you did it.

You got so far. You got too far. He said, scared me. But I forgave him, you know, I, because you know why? Because I never thought about that. Like, I could have just killed him. You know, he would never be safe out here. And he's right.

Because he, I know, because I've seen it. Charlie got more male than any other in the history of fucking mankind. Like, you wouldn't, you would not believe the amount of mail he got from every fucking walk of life you could imagine. And 90% of it is holy Roland, you know, you're the devil. You know, I hope you die. You like, oh, I hate male. and I'm going to, if you ever get out, I'm going to kill you, I'm going to cut your head out, drink your blood, like some weird shit, man. But anyway, he would have to send his mail out every five, because Charlie was a hoarder.

He didn't throw shit away. And the prison used to make him send his mail out every three to five months. And I used to get some of it. And brother, when I tell you, the fucking FedEx truck would pull up to my house, beep, beep, beep. five giant boxes. That's three months worth of his mail. So me and my girl sat down one night and put it in order of date.

You know, just off the envelope. Just an order of date. And just started reading shit. From actors, fucking priests, you know, presidents of countries. Like, you wouldn't believe the people that wrote him. But, man, some of the weirdest,

because it gives you an insight into the life this guy lives, the mail he gets like it's just there's some weirdos out there man like some scary people and i understood when he said that like i'll have to buy i don't want to have to buy a gun i don't want to hurt nobody like and and i think at the time he was 70 maybe just turned in 70 maybe he was maybe in his late 60s he's like i'm too old for that man he's like you know i'm safe here he's like please understand that, please. And I said, I understand, brother, I am

so sorry. I never thought of that. Like he's right. And he's right. Can you imagine if Charles Manson moved to my house? I would fucking, I would have a circus outside my house. I want to write the sitcom. I never, I never,

it just never. It never be a great show. Me and Charlie. It's like a parallel of the universe. Charlie comes out of prison. It's like, Like, you know, it's been living with you and your, it's like a total sitcom living with you and your children. In my defense, just because he signed, even if he signed it, it's not to say I would have, we would have won. It would have just granted him a new trial based on whatever evidence was found on those text Watson tapes.

Because Manson was the only one that had legal right to these. I didn't know this. I got a phone call from some lady from the associate. I remember her name was Ogo Rodriguez. She worked for the Associated Press back in those days. I think it was her. Maybe she said to me, you know, because I was close, I had a close friendship with a lot of these reporters

because that's how I fought the prison. I used these, because that's the only thing the prison listened to was bad publicity. So anyway, long story short, she said to me, you know, Manson's the only one that has legal rights to these tapes. You know that, right? I said, no, I'm not lawyer. How would I know that?

She's like, well, he's the only one that, you know, didn't plead guilty that has always professed his innocence. He could subpoena those tapes for a new trial. And that's what really gave me the idea of, holy shit, maybe that's the new evidence Jerry Spence was telling me about. And Jerry Spence confirmed and said to me, yep, that'll suffice. Good luck getting them. and even to this day for some reason the district attorney's office won't release those tapes even based on the FOIA Freedom and Information Act

why are they hiding those tapes if there's nothing on him why why can't we hear it what is their reason what do they think why because text Watson's on those tapes debunking the health of skeletor myth the state what's the official reason

what do they say something about evidence of unsolved murders, but there's nothing on there that that pertains to the Manson's innocence. So then let us fucking hear it. You know what I find interesting about your

story jam is that you're you know, with all due respect you're like just this regular Schmo who inserted yourself in history. Well like I know and you know what bro I'm being honest with you? I unknowingly

and if I could go back in time I I think I would have, because my relationship with Charlie saved my life. And I'm being honest. Because back when I started writing him, I was addicted to fucking oxy cotton. I was a fucking mess. I just lost my business. I had no money. Why do you think I started writing him?

I had to make money. That's how bad things got from me. I was trying to hustle Manson signatures, you know? But, you know, that's how out of the box thinking, though. You know, I mean, you know, I'm going to be my business. It was him that, man, you're doing that junk? And I'm like, oh, no, no, you're just here and there, you know, I don't have a habit. Meanwhile, I'm, I'm gray.

And he's like, man, you got to get off that junk, you know? And it was him. I've been sober since February 7th of 2007. It's because of him. For you. You know? Yeah, he saved my life, not just Billy knows a few other times. But, like, Manson, I don't know how to put it.

Like, I think he loved me just as much as I loved him, and we were two lost souls that didn't have it anywhere else in our lives. I think we were all each other had, you know, and I think, of course, for me on the outside, I had bills to pay, I had children to raise, I had a business to run. I had fucking things to do. And trying to juggle that and make sure he was okay.

It was just overwhelming sometimes, you know, just. But I could never give up on him because I just could never imagine leaving that little boy at the window. You know what I mean? I always came back to that in my mind because I was that little boy at the window. It's interesting, Jam, because, you know, being on the front lines of your, you know, I was, you know, I listened to them all. I went on your entire journey of your relationship. And like I said before, it's very rare to have that insight into other, regardless of it being Charles Manson, it's very rare to listen in on somebody else's relationship. That's how I felt. And listen to and myself. And, you know, it's hard to even separate. what I like my relationship with you based on the how I got to know you through your relationship with Manson and it was just like you know like I fell in love with you both just listening like it was like it's not about being influenced at all because I didn't have skin in the game I was just privy

with your earphones listening in to these two people literally fall in love with each other and and and and and I fell in love like I remember writing you you at times just like I felt like I knew you so well because I'd spent so much time with you even though it was you weren't really spending that time with me and it was just fascinating to see that and I remember at the beginning it was like I was kicking I was like cursing at you like fuck why did you ask this fucking question why didn't you know because I was like you know I I had a agenda of what I wanted to hear but then after a while I just I gave up and I was just like you know what, let me just like, yeah, it might not be good for the show, but let me just like

listen. Here I have like access to something that other people don't. Let me just know what it is. A guy came out. Remember I went out to take a cigarette. Yeah, I will. Some guy came out to me and he's like, John. I said, yeah, he's like, hi, I just want to introduce my, he's wicked thick British accent. I can barely understand. He's like, I, you know, I'm one of the, I forget what his title, but he had to listen to the calls. He's like, I've listened to your calls, man. He's like, I feel like I know you. He's like, I just want to tell you, I fucking love you, man.

He's like, you, you and Charlie had the best relation. He's like, I look at him so differently now. He's like, you guys are the funniest fuckers, man. He's like, you guys had me fucking rolling. But you, and you, he should watch his movie. He has a movie out on, I think it's on prime about, it's like the first Popeye slasher movie. The first Popeye slasher movie.

that he directed. He's like, can I give you my number? Can we stay in touch? I said, sure. But, you know, it's funny when Renown came into my life. And they said to me, like, can you listen to them and tell us what's on that? I said, can I listen to it? You got to keep in mind, Manson died in 2017.

Those phone calls were all put on a disc drive and put up in my closet. I didn't listen to none of them. I didn't know fucking idea what was on those calls, you know? And had no interest in revisiting them because that was for my son who Charlie named, who's named after Charlie. Later in life, he could listen to these calls

and know that Charlie wasn't what the media says he is. And I wanted him to know who his dad was. If everything ever happened to me, here's the relationship that gave you your name. for my son. It wasn't for public consumption. But when Renown came into the picture and says, could you just listen to some of them and let us, and I said, well, how many calls do you got? I go, 20 years worth? They were like, what? All of them? I go, yeah, I go about 18 years worth. And so they were like, well, you know, it's very imperative that you listen to them because we need

to know what's on before we can make you an offer. And I was like, I've been, we have no deal. There's no offer. They're like, well, okay, well, we're willing to pay this much. I was like, okay, I'll start listening to them all more. I'll get back here. So sure enough, that morning, I took the dish, uploaded them all on my phone. And just from the moment I woke up to the moment I went to bed, I pushed play and listen to phone calls.

And it took me over a month. And I'm not exaggerating. I'm talking morning, noon, and night, Monday, through Monday, seven days a week for over a month. And I had a front row seat to a life that I lived that I forgot about or wasn't paying attention to. And it's funny that you say that, Billy, because so many times I'd be like, oh, Mike, why didn't you ask him this? Or, oh, you're fucking idiot.

He's trying to tell you something. And you're like, oh, hold on a minute. But you've got to remember, when I recorded these calls, I was living my life. I was changing diapers. I was washing dishes. I was fucking doing a roof hanging off a fucking three-story building trying to nail a shingle. I was preoccupied and I missed a lot of the things that he was saying to me. And for the first time, like, brother, I've never experienced anything like this.

For a month, I would fucking wake up laughing and crying, then laughing and crying. It was a month of an emotional roller coaster ride that I'd could not put to words if I tried. I could not articulate. My girlfriend would come home from work, my fiance at the time, she would come home and say, why are you doing this to yourself? Like, stop. And I'm like, I can't, because it got to a point where I became so addicted to listening to it. Just hearing his voice again for the first time in years. You know, it just, and then I wanted to know what was on that next call. So it was like I became obsessed with listening to all.

I mean, from the first call to the last call, I listened to it all. And I was in awe of what I experienced. I witnessed two men hustling each other and slowly falling in love at one another and building a bond that you never see in life, a true bond, a genuine friendship of concern and love, you know, and I remember thinking, okay, because I know the next call is the last call. You know, of course, at the time I didn't,

but as I'm looking back and I'm thinking, what's the last thing he's going to say to me? You know, and please don't let it be something like I need you or something that's going to fucking crush me, you know, but in true Manson form it was, I couldn't have written it any better. It was perfect.

And I knew, I knew. The world, you know what, as much as I hate fucking around films because I do, I thank God for them every single day because these tapes are going to give the world the real Charles Manson.

And it's important not just maybe for, psychological reasons later in life or the world of psychiatry, but in general, overall. I think these calls are important for many reasons, and I'm not a doctor, I don't know, but I can't say for sure that Billy did a fucking tremendous job presenting what he had and what he was allowed to present, but there's so much that they didn't talk about that should be. there's so much left in these calls that need to be fucking shared with the world. You know, and I'm glad that I was able to meet Billy because he's perfect for it.

When they introduced me to Billy and says, all right, this is the guy, we got these two guys. What do you think of these two? And I remember Billy was the last one I looked at and he did a project of exposing some corruption. or if I remember correctly, it was in Vegas of them taking advantage of the elderly. And I said, this guy's fucking perfect for it. Because you know what, Billy's more for truth. You know, and I knew that that's what this case needed. And that's what these tapes provide is the truth.

I'm not going to sit back and sit, like Billy said, I'm not here to exonerate Manson. And I'm not either because Manson was no way. angel, but he was no murderer either. He just wasn't. And these calls not only give you an insight into who Manson was, but the life he lived, the fucking treatment that they provided, the torture he endured, the fucking bullshit, the other bullshit, and you understand why he acted the way he acted. But most of all, these calls slowly, you see that mask just, going and then

coming to the trust he trusted you yeah it could be vulnerable yeah so are you comfortable sharing what the last thing he said if you're not it's totally fine yeah what was the last thing you can't just leave us at that well all right I don't know if you notice Billy but Charlie

had this weird thing like um he would go uh see I can't do it he would go yeah yeah yeah yeah like he was some context he was like super sick at this time he was dying right he was dying he was there were some and not just

dying of of pancreatic cancer but he was also suffering the early stages of dementia so if you notice in the calls sometimes towards the the younger in the beginning Charlie's young and energetic and you can actually hear him aging over time but towards the end of the the calls you got to remember he's so dope, drugged out from the cancer meds, but he's also fighting dementia. We would fucking forget who I was a lot of times. And sometimes he would be mid-sentence and stop and be like, what did you say?

I'd be like, oh, he'd start calling me Ben or he'd start calling me Frank. You know, what are you talking about Frank? Frank? I'm like, oh, yeah. But I would always play into it because I didn't, I wanted him to think it was normal. I forget things all the time, you know. But the very, I mean, from the beginning to the end of our relationship for 20 years,

he had this tick. Whenever he made you laugh or wherever he cracked a joke, wherever he did, he would go, yeah, like, I can't do it. But it's perfect, like, year, year. And the last fucking thing he said. to me was, yeah. Click. Click.

Oh, God, I fucking hear. I just, you know, because it's typical, like, that was his humor, you know? And he would say, hey, this might be our last call, man. Like, I'm, stop saying that. No, he's like, I'm telling him feeling, soldier.

I think I'm going to go to tonight's the last. I think that's time for me to go to the ranch in the sky. Like, oh, come on, man, stop down. Come on, man, I'm all right. I accepted it. I've lived a long, I've lived a good life. You know, I've done good.

I'm like, yeah, you have, man. You didn't realize you've managed to put on more albums than the Beatles, and you've been in fucking solitary confinement for the last 20 years? Yeah, fuck the beat, right? You're right. I didn't think of that. But I told me, you got more albums than let's happen, you know what?

Yeah, yeah, you're right, huh? But I haven't got the fucking money. I can save a fucking penny. Like, no, but you've got a lot of fucking record out there. Speaking of which, I just, Manton from, I'd say, 2007, had me out looking for these lost Vacaville tapes. In the early 80s, when he was in Vacaville,

he was allowed to have a tape recorder in his guitar and his cell, and he recorded a shit ton of music and some ramblings of himself in his cell. And I says, well, what happened to them? He's like, I got stolen. Fucking rags stole some. Neal Lemon stole some. I'm like, he's like, try to find them, man,

I want to put that music out. And I did find one over the years. It's out, it's actually, if there's an album out called the Lost Baccaville tapes, that's one of the tapes that I found. Just last fucking, on the 10th, five minutes before Charlie Kirk got assassinated, I just won an auction of a Manson-Loss-Vacquivale tape. Never before heard music.

Two hours of Charlie in itself from the estate of Newell Emmons. I won the auction, and five minutes later, my sister called, Charlie Curtin's got shot. I was like, what? So I already pay, I'm waiting for it to come now, but look at that. Why did that just do that? two hours of holy shit man do you see that relax it look good we're just getting the close-up of you so long thing i i i just cannot believe that because i asked him charlie i says what um what what or he's like how many of you think are

out there he's like i don't know i think i did like maybe 12 10 but i'm thinking out of 10 tapes What are the odds that two of them found their way into my hands after 30, 40 years? And of course, according to the item description, this has never been heard before. It's brand like unheard music and ramblings, as they put it, of his most inner thoughts. This is driving me nuts, guys. I got to fix this. For those listening, J.M. just did something with his camera and did a super zoom on him. Yeah, we're looking up his nose right now.

You know, while you're figuring that out, Jan, I just want to, you know, there is one thing that I find very fascinating in the whole folklore and all the people that are interested in Charles Manson, you know, especially Quentin Tarantino's Once Upon a Time in Hollywood, which, you know, I'm a big Tarantino fan. there's a scene where, you know, they're going to kill, you know, they're going to, they're going, the infamous killing where they go to the, the house, the, the, the tape residence, which was originally Terry's house who, you know, the, the rumor was that's who was trying to kill. And so, you know, you know, that scene in, in, in, once upon a time of America, when they go up and, and then, uh, and then, uh, DeCaprio comes out and he's like the very loud. He tells him to get lost. And they go around the corner. And so they're in the car where it's Tex Watson and the girls, Linda, Sadie and Patricia. And so, you know, Quentin Tarantino is reenacting this,

like what happened right before the murders. And so the dialogue is this. So Tex Watson, who's played by Austin, whoever, one of the girls says, what did Charlie say? You know, because this is the famous, like, ordering of the murder. And Tech says, go to Terry's old house. I'm doing this scene of, I'm doing the scene, but just relax about the, don't worry about it. So we're in the car with Tex Watson, Patricia, Sadie.

and Linda. And Sadie's character says, what did Charlie say? Like, this is about the ordering of the murderer that Tex is the one who said. And Tex says, go to Terry's old house and kill everybody in there. And one of the girls says, and they don't believe him. It's clear that they don't believe him. And she's like, and you heard him yourself? And he says,

he said make it witchy, which is like the famous thing, go do something witchy. And then there's a pause and they don't believe him. And then he says, text, the guy, Austin playing text, says, now he either said that or I'm a liar. Now, are anyone of you calling me a liar? How about you? Are you calling me a liar? No, of course not. Good. So, which is super interesting that Tarantino, like, is definitely telling us something there, yet he never talks about it. He's like, you know, Tarantino was fully on the, on the, on the, on the chaos bandwagon as far as the theory behind the murders, et cetera. But this is Tarantino. You know, most people that would go way over their head because they don't know enough about

the story. But when you watch that scene, it's. It's just, it is Tarantino, oh, man, hopefully saying that it's like text was making it up, which, which I find super fascinating. And I think it goes over, you know, of the, you know, millions and millions and millions of people that have seen that movie and know the story about Charles Manson probably didn't recognize what Tarantino was saying. Do you see that scene? No, I've never even watched that movie. You got to watch it, man. That's a good movie.

You know, Tarantino takes liberties, but. But that is just so on note. And that was pretty much the whole theory that our series rests on, is that this moment that we believe that Manson ordered these killings never happened. And here Tarantino is saying the same thing. Well, he's saying that the girls doubted that Tex was telling the truth, and Tex was threatening them with, you know, with repercussions and consequences if they don't believe him, which I think is like the most important scene about Charles Manson in the history of filmmaking on Charles Manson, including my...

When Charlie began to tell me, I had no. nothing to do it. I didn't believe him. You know, and I think it was when he wasn't trying to convince me is when I started to really believe it the most, like certain little things. I'll give you an example. He would say, I said, hey, man, is it true? You, you only knew Linda Kasabian for a few weeks before the murders? Because I getting, you know, I wasn't aware that she had just come to the ranch. He's like, no, that's true, man. He's a glit, man, soldier. If I ran into her twice, I mean, He said, I didn't know her from a hole in the wall. He's like, I think I bumped into her twice.

I go, but they're saying that you fucked her on the first night. He's like, man, I could have. I fucked them all. He's like, but listen, man, he's like, let me ask you a question. I said, wait, why did I go, so you didn't know her? He's like, no. He's like, look, that's what I've been trying to tell you, man. He's like, do you think I would send someone like her or someone I didn't know, barely two weeks?

and trust her to keep her my life? And I'm like, how are you trusting her with your life? He's like, I'm going to send her to fucking kill for me. I don't even know her. I'm going to be able to trust her to keep her mouth shut. He said, you think I'm that stug? I go, I never thought of that, right? I never thought of that.

And he's like, just like they say, well, I sent her because she had a driver's license, right? She's the only woman. Tex fucking drove. I was like, oh, my God. Like, why isn't this shit? None of this shit came out in the top. Like, it was the lawyers, he said, the lawyers didn't fucking. He's like, nah, the lawyers never put on one minute of defense for me, soldier.

But I always thought that was a figment of speech, you know what I'm saying? Until I looked at the fucking trial transcripts, I looked at the case itself. Manson wasn't allowed to put on the defense. It's not that he didn't. He couldn't. Bulliosey had convinced the judge that if Manson addressed the jury, he would brainwash them into believing he's innocent. Now, I'm no fucking rocket scientist, but isn't that every defendant's fucking goal is to convince a jury of his innocence? You know, but sure enough, he succeeded, you know, that the judge wouldn't allow Manson to address the jury.

Manson was not allowed to call one single witness to his defense. Now, that's when I started to really think of my... Guilty or innocent, right? that's irrelevant when it comes down to the rights of any fucking American citizen we all, you know, I think it was Mont Luther King that said injustice for one is injustice for all or something like that and it's true. It's like if you can't give

not only did they violate a Sixth Amendment right by not allowing him to defend himself but brother this whole trial was a sham. Vincent Boliosi should be a fucking shame to himself. Well, it should have been ashamed of himself. Because he... I don't think he was. He made a lot of money. He didn't give a fuck. That's why even Tom O'Neill, when he started to write his book,

admired Boliosi, looked up to him in a way, couldn't wait to interview him. And then according to Tom O'Neill, who's a friend of mine, Tom told me, man, I started to see this guy was a fucking piece of shit. Well, he calls him out right at the beginning of the book. I was a snake. And it's true. He broke a lot of fucking rules and a lot of laws convicted Manson.

But anyway, I, when I tell you, like, Manson professed his innocence from day one because, and I hate to use that word, innocent, right? I'm going to rephrase that. And he's not guilty of the crimes of which he was committed. at most conspiracy to commit murder without question, after the fact. And I'm going to tell you why I say that. Because Charlie said to me,

did I know what they were going to fucking do? Maybe. He said, but I didn't think Tex had it in him. Tex was a pussy. I had to fight Texas battles. I can't tell you how many times. Even the lots of papa, the Bernard Crow shooting. That was Tex's beef.

That wasn't Manson's beef. Tex would always fucking rob drug dealers and when confronted run. Tex was a runner. And he didn't think Tex had it in him that night. And when he saw what Tex was capable of doing, the second night,

that's why Manson got the fuck out of there. He told me, and I couldn't believe he admitted that to me. And I think it's on one of my calls. He didn't stop Tex because he was afraid of him. He said, I just saw what he did. the night before, you think I'm going to stand in front of this, this motherfucker, he's six foot four, I'm five foot nothing. He's like, I got out of his way.

And I got to think that, like, in my, in my world, I would have fucking too. Look, I've known some guys that were going to do some shit. I'll give you an example. I knew a bunch of, I knew a bunch of my friends were going to do a bank one time. I was like, I got to go, see you guys. What do you think I'm going to do? Come on, guys, you know that's not the right thing to do. Come on, go get a judge.

fuck no they're not going to listen to me i'm not even going to try and then you think he's going to call the cops or he should have called the cops you didn't call the cops and tim was not a cop caller and i don't think it's you know to be honest with you it's not his place to call a fucking right this is what i was talking about before is that there's circumstances involved he's a kid from the streets and manson's mind and he's look i didn't do this so they can't convict me. I'm innocent. I committed no crime. I did know nothing wrong. And in the eyes of the law, you did. I'm not saying it's morally right, but what the fuck did the world expect them to do? Snitch on text? It's not a crime to not snitch. You have that fucking right. Look, I minded my own business.

And I think when they came back And it was Sadie that said to him She put a blood She just He didn't know what she was handing him She reached out to hand him something And he just And she dropped a bloody knife in his hand

According to Charlie This came from Charlie And she said We did it for you Charlie And he said no cunt What you just did was put me back In fucking prison the rest of my fucking life And I said you said that to her

He said, yeah. And I always heard that. It was in, I think in Texas book, too. Or no, it was in Sadie's book. I'm sorry. And I remember reading that in her book. And I said, you know what? She put that in her book.

He goes, did she? I said, yeah. So she really, she said that to you? He said, yeah, those were verbatim. No cunt. What you just did was put. I said, Charlie, did your lawyer not bring that up during the trial? He said, my lawyer wasn't, didn't bring up nothing.

But my point is, are those the words of something? somebody that ordered the murders? Would he be like, oh, good job, my soldier, my, my, my disciple. No, he was fucking livid. He couldn't believe what he was hearing. He actually didn't believe it at first until she put that bloody knife in his hand. And he just, he wanted the fuck out. And rumor has it, and don't know if this part's true, that he packed his shit up and was

actually getting in the car. And Lynette Fromm came out and said, weren't you the one that said we when one, we're all one we all stay together she convinced him in staying. He was going to leave that night. And that's

another thing, the night of the killing, the night of the murders. Charlie wasn't even around. I think he was like 40 something fucking miles away. And Ben Sir doing an audition and picking up Stephanie Schramm. If he thought the end of the world was coming, then what's he auditioning

for? What do you? You think the end of the world's coming to race war, but you're auditioning for the monkeys or whatever the fuck he was auditioning for that night? Makes no sense. So I asked him, is it true? Were you auditioned? He's like, yeah, that's another thing that should have been brought up at the trial to combat Boliosi's theory of Manson wanting to start a race war.

If you want to start a race war, would you be auditioning for a fucking, for anything? No. Would you be pissed that they claim to have done? done it for you? No, you would have been pleased. The facts of the case debunks the health of skeletal therapy, but Boliosi did an impeccable job of keeping that secret from all these years, for all the years that he was alive anyway. You know, I met people that interviewed him, and Boliosi had very strict guidelines before he would agree to your interview. A, a minimum of $6,000 right off the gate.

But on top of that, he wanted a list of all your questions. He had to pre-approve every question you asked him. And if you watch that interview, he did what Linda Kasabian right, the last one before he died. If you watch him under the table, he keeps grabbing her

knee. If you watch him, like every time she goes to say, he controlled her like you wouldn't, and Billy, I think even Billy befriended Diane Lake. And Diane Lake admitted he was visiting her at the hospital, which is completely unethical, but he's going to the hospital to interview Diane Lake.

He was coaching people on what to testify to. He went around threatening people to either testify or you get the gas chamber. You can't fucking do that. You can't do that. What's his name? He lived next door to the lobby, because. True.

Harold True. Harold True testified. Bulliosi threatened my life. I said to him, go ahead, motherfucker. I was in, I think he was in Nigeria. He wasn't even in the country. Vincent Beliose had him arrested and locked up and told him. I'll give you, you'll go to the gas chamber if you don't testify.

He's like, I got myself a good lawyer, which none of the other people could afford to do. The other people were forced to either play his game or fucking run. It's a tragedy. This case is a tragedy. And what bothers me beneath is that the victims are, this should be about the victims. Justice for the victims. Forget about all the he said, she said bullshit.

Sharon Tate, Voitek Vyke Vikowsky, Abigail Folger, you know, and Jay Sebring and the other, the La Bianca's, you know, even Shorty Shea, they all deserve. justice. And they've turned this case into a circus. And I truly believe we were talking about this earlier with Sharon Tate's mother. She died looking for that justice. Same with her father. Same with her sister. They all died. They didn't even want, they didn't even involve Manson. It's Tex Watson. Tex Watson is hid behind his fake religion and is his

hid behind these secret tapes that the DA has. And until Tex Watson comes forward and takes ownership in this and says, hey, look, man, I've fucked up. And I'll be honest with you, I think Tex was so loaded that night because I was told by Charlie, he was up for three days on a three-day bender doing speed, which is meth. Back then they called it speed, but it's methamphetamine. Tex was hooked on it. He was burying it in Gerber jars.

on the ranch, hiding it from Charlie and the rest of the people. But him and Susan Atkins and a few others, they were smoking it and sniffing it. They were meth addicts. And you know what meth addicts. And it makes sense. Those crimes were barbaric. Of course, they were all burnt out on meth. Look at the crimes were horrendous.

But I think Tex doesn't remember what happened that night. It's not that I don't think Texx. wants to tell what happened. I think text doesn't fucking really remember what happened. I think it's blurred because he keeps changing his story. His stories change, not just text, but all of them. If you think about it, Charlie's the only one that kept a consistent story from day one. Look, I had nothing to do with this. What text did, text did. You know, you want to do, do it, do it well. you that's and in my calls I have a call where Charlie talks in depth about that

look man I just wanted pussy he said that's all I was after I would have told them do anything I don't know yeah sure do it just leave me the fuck alone but it's sad to me because I think Sadie and not just Iver

Iver Davis who I sort of blame because Iver as a journalists had a responsibility to not put that garbage out without making sure it's fucking true. That was a good story. He loved it. And I'm sure I haven't know it was going to go

the way. I don't blame him. Yeah, he believed it. It was a different time. I'm not getting him off the hook. But I get the impression he still believes it to this day. He's open. We talk about it. He's open. He's open to being wrong. We talk about it.

Yeah. But it's it's 2 p.m. Just so you know, Jim. Yeah. It's 2 p.m. I trust you a judgment, brother. I really do. I just, for me, it hurts because I watched a man suffer because of it.

And I'm telling you, after 18 years of not just suffering with, you know, cancer and early stages of dementia. Look, we're all going to face that someday, hopefully not. But we're all going to have our day. of the end of life. But I'm talking about unnecessary fucking torture, you know, and it's just, and meanwhile, Texas is having conjugal visits

and having kids and fucking preaching the gospel and what the fuck, man? The state of California should be ashamed of themselves. Manson's in solitary confinement, Texas is fathering three or four kids. Texas is the one that committed these murders, not Manson. And nobody breathing oxygen today can utter the words, I heard Charlie tell him to do it.

Nobody. Except for text. Except what the guy who killed? And even text himself, I thought that's what Manson wanted me to do. I thought I heard him tell me to do it in my brain. Yeah, it sort of takes his credit. I mean, that would never hold up in defense. No way.

And you want to know another thing we were talking about earlier that I wanted to chime in, but I didn't. Hey, Jam, just before you get on there, it's already 1.205. The man's in mind control and how they say Charlie control them with acid. I don't know about you guys. I used to do acid as a kid.

You can't control fucking people's mind with acid. That's already scientifically proven. You can't brainwash someone use an acid. It's ridiculous. The whole theory is ridiculous. Yeah, my mind's gone when I'm on acid. not me man my mind's open it's free love you don't want to kill no one i want to write a song and a poem or something i mean i've never done so i can't talk about you guys um

but you know i know back then the stuff was supposed to be good at least i mean it's a peaceful drug it's not a it's not like meth let's put it that way oh yeah meth is very violent like yeah yeah um well i know that you have a hard stop i could probably listen to you for like another two hours here. Yeah. At least it's fascinating. And I think that this, you know, I think that this gives listeners a totally different perspective on Charles Manson on the Manson murders.

And, you know, maybe depending on how the episode goes, I'm sure it will go well. Maybe a follow-up possibly in the future if you guys want to do that. But I mean, it's fascinating. And, you know, obviously. We can even play some calls, too, so people can hear what I'm talking about. certain calls where he's talking about that night and why he didn't stop text

instead of me saying it let them hear it because Billy didn't pray that in the film they wouldn't let him and I'll say this so I don't have to you know it's me so I can do whatever I want so if there's calls out there that you think the world needs to hear let's yeah let's figure it out let's do it I'm up for that

that's I think that's an easy easy ask and I don't have to answer it anybody yeah It'd be very interesting because you can hear, you can hear there's almost regret in his voice. Like, I'll never forget this call. He said to me, he was really depressed one night, and that was rare for him. And I said to him, you okay, man? And he's like, yeah, I'm all right.

And he was like, this fucking, I'm just ready. And I says, you know what, but you lived a pretty incredible life, you know. and he's like yeah if I didn't have to suffer this fucking shit and you can hear the inmates in the background screaming and yelling and the clanging and the banging but you can hear it in his voice like you can hear him reliving that moment in his life like realizing this is my fucking reality you know what I'm saying and I would love for the to play that call because it really gives you an insight

into how much he regretted a lot of his life. Like, just by the way he said, if I didn't have to suffer this shit. Well, and I think, you know, let's have a discussion offline about that, and we can see what we can do to arrange and get some of those out. Great.

But I know that both, I know you got to go pick up your kid, and I know Billy's got a hard stop too, and I don't want to overstep. So I just want to thank you guys both for being on here. Absolutely. do a follow-up on this, this episode. And so you and I, Jim,

will definitely have a conversation about that and we'll see what we can do. You got it, man. You can pick my number from Billy or my email or get in touch me through Billy. I'm always here for you, brother. I appreciate you. And I appreciate your willingness to come on

and share this. And you too, Billy. Thank you for happening. It's sharing your phone. Well, absolutely. Billy needs his own podcast, by the way. I think we have. You're producing it?

I mean, I have a producer so I can put you in touch with her. Great. You got I need some help. I would love you. I'll help you. Hey, you know what this tape like I got coming? We'll listen to it all together for the first time.

There you go. We'll put it on a thing. Okay. Thank you both. All right. Justin, thanks a lot. Have a good one, guys. The views and opinions expressed in this episode are solely those of the individual speaking

and do not necessarily reflect those of the host. Unheard is intended to provide a platform for personal stories and lived experiences, not to establish facts, determine guilt, innocence, or provide legal, medical, or professional advice. Listeners are encouraged to conduct their own research and form their own conclusions. Thank you for listening to Unheard.