Unlocking Us with Brené Brown - Brené and Barrett on Living Into Our Values

Episode Date: January 26, 2022

We’re back, and we are starting the year with a deep dive into values. I’m not a fan of resolutions, but I absolutely believe in the power of resetting. I can’t think of a more powerful way to double down on ourselves than getting clear on our values and the behaviors that support them — and the shit that gets in the way. Join us as Barrett and I talk through a values exercise PDF that we made for you to do your own values work. Of all the work we do with leaders and teams, this is probably the biggest game changer. Let’s go! Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hi, everyone. I'm Brene Brown, and this is Unlocking Us. I miss y'all. Welcome back, Barrett. We're back. We're back. We're back. I don't know. I had a vision for 2022 that was easier than what we're in right now. January is so hard, usually, always. God dang it. January is so hard, usually, always. God dang it. January is hard.

And every year I say, hey, in February, I'm like, plan for next year. January is hard. And then I go into like this, like, but not this time. Yeah. January is tough. It's totally been a hard start. Hard start. And we celebrate Christmas in our family. And that was different and hard because we had a COVID diagnosis on Christmas Eve.

Yep. Right before our big, you know, not a big family gathering, but all the siblings with each of the parents. But, you know, I haven't talked to one family who really wasn't impacted in some way over the holiday break. Yeah. I've had a couple of friends that I don't know how we made it through, but, you know, we did it. But everyone else was kind of last minute changes and rearranging. And yeah, it was, I don't know, I was talking to Ashley. Oh, we were there. I was talking to Ashley. For those of y'all who have not listened to the sister series, that's our other sister who's actually a bare as identical twin, who's a therapist. And hey, what's wrong with you? Catch up on the sister series. But we were talking about something

and she said, people are not okay. People are not okay. I agree. Yeah, I'm not okay. No, I'm not okay. Yeah, I just think it's, I don't know, I think you get so close to some normalcy and then have that pulled out from underneath you more than once, twice. Yeah. It's hard. I'm glad to be back. I'm excited about you and I doing this together today. It'll be fun.

Yeah. And you're back back. This is like your unofficial first day back. Yeah, no, I took three, four weeks off. Yeah. I did. First time in my whole career. And let me tell you, that's dangerous because big changes are coming. No one should give me that much time. I was just thinking, is it you and I or me and you? I don't remember, but I'm glad we're together doing this. Me too. Okay. I'm super clear it's not I too. Yes, look at that start. Yeah, let's go. Okay, so I have to tell y'all that we wanted to do something for the new year

that's really different and you're either gonna like it or you're gonna not like it and then you'll let us know on social using nice words. I thought we would do some work together. And so if you go to brenebrown.com, you're going to find a downloadable PDF for this episode, specially made for this episode,

and we're going to do it together. So if you're walking right now and you're like, shit, I can't do that, you can listen to me and Barrett do it. You can pause and come back. But I want to take us through an exercise that I think is life-changing. So that's what we're going to do in our first episode of Unlocking Us for 2022. Let's do it.

Let's do it. Support for this show comes from Macy's. Fall is in full swing, and it's the perfect time to refresh your home and wardrobe for the sweater weather with new finds from Macy's. Fall is in full swing, and it's the perfect time to refresh your home and wardrobe for the sweater weather with new finds from Macy's. From October 9th to October 16th, get amazing deals on shoes and boots on sale at 30 to 40% off. And you can shop new styles during the Macy's Fab Fall Sale from October 9th to October 14th. Shop oversized knits, warm jackets, and trendy charm necklaces and get 25 to 60% off on top brands when you do. Plus, get great deals on cozy home accessories from October 18th to October 27th.

Shop in-store or online at Macy's.com. About a year ago, two twin brothers in Wisconsin discovered kind of by accident that mini golf might be the perfect spectator sport for the TikTok era. Meanwhile, a YouTuber in Brooklyn found himself less interested in tech YouTube and more interested in making coffee. This month on The Verge Cast, we're telling stories about these people who tried to find new ways to make content, new ways to build businesses around that content, and new ways to make content about those businesses. Our series is called How to Make It Okay, let's get started. So I am not a fan of resolutions because there's so much the whole like new year, new you marketing scheme is so stressful to me. You know, like on January 1st, I'm in deep recovery.

You know, like I'm not bouncing up, you know. And I swear to God, I keep getting these texts that say, like, you can lose 30 pounds if you click here on this link. And twice, I just texted back, fuck you. But I don't think that's the same as stop text, but it should be. I bet it doesn't. I bet the robot doesn't pick it up. It's January. Read the room, people. Read the room. I'm just not a fan. And maybe I'm also not a fan, to be honest with you, because I don't mark the new year in January. Because kind of as a professor, I mark the new year in August. Yeah.

You know, and then I end the year in May. So, perpetually a student. But I was trying to think of what would be valuable to do in January as kind of a, if you're in a great get up and go, let's do it. If you're in the, do've taken a hundred thousand people through the Dare to Lead courage building program, and it has been life-changing for people. So that's what we're going to do today. Barrett and I are going to do ours with you, and then we have the PDF for you to do yours. So it's basically a values exercise about not just naming your values, but operationalizing them into behaviors, understanding what they are, understanding what it looks and feels like when you're aligned with

them and what it looks and feels like when you're not aligned with them. And it's hard, right? Yeah, it's really hard. But I have to say, and I'd be curious about your experience. I'd have to say in the end, when the water is deep and swift and I'm in a hard place, it is, my values are the most consistent life raft for me. Yeah, I agree. I think so too. It's a system that you can lean into for yourself when shit's really hard and you can't even put the next foot forward. Sometimes you can always just lean into it. Yeah, that's it. It's always right there. And it's not someone texting you bullshit about who you should be. It's not pictures. It's not like, you know, the gym

calling saying like, get your shit together. It's January. This is just you. This is you doubling down on you. Yes. Yes. Yeah. Nothing external, but we need to excavate it in a way. And we've got a pretty good process for it. So let's jump in.

So again, if you're walking right now or running or driving and you don't, you didn't say, hey, I'm going to listen to the first Unlocking Us podcast with a pen and I'm going to have my laptop and printer here just in case I need to download something. Listen through with us. And the nice thing is, I don't think you need to listen again because the PDF will take you through each of these steps. Super self-explanatory. If you want to fill it out yourself and then listen again, that could be a neat way to

do it. Okay. So the first thing we're going to do, and this is really interesting, is a part of the PDF will be a list of values. Now, one of the things that's interesting is how did I get to this place where I'm saying you need to pick two? I reversed engineered it from over 500,000 pieces of data, talking to people and people who had clarity, people who were both thoughtful and decisive, people who were vulnerable and also brave, which I don't think you can be one without the other. One of the things that they had in common was real clarity about their values. And when I asked, what are your values? No one gave me eight. No one gave me four. People gave me one or two. And so when you look at this big list of values that's on the

PDF, it's really, we have in our experience, it's really difficult to get to two. And so here's how I would approach this list. I mean, this list is from accountability to wisdom and everything in between it. It's probably, what do you think? There's a hundred at least? Probably, yeah. Yeah. Patience, kindness, knowledge, freedom, financial stability, environment. It's all here. Culture. So what I want you to do is when you look at this big list, I want you to start by circling 15 even that speak to you. Because the thing is that like if you have 15 values that are, you know, we can't end up there because then you're like a Hallmark store. Not, you know, they're not helpful when you have 15 of them. So I want you to start and I want you to circle as many of them really speak to you, but no more than 10 or 15.

So once you've done that, then we're going to get to the two. And the best way, and this is where the work it's happening, something's changing in you as you do this exercise. It totally is. Especially I think with this question. To get from the 15 or the 10 to the two, we ask ourselves these questions. What are the one or two values, looking at all the circled ones, where everything else is forged, that all of these are great, but without these, there's really nothing. And when you look at the values, you're asking, does this define me? Is this who I am at my best? Is this a filter that I use to make hard decisions? Have you struggled to get it to two?

Do you still struggle? We've been doing it for a long time. Yeah, I can still struggle. And sometimes I'm like, oh, but maybe it's this one. And you know, mine change. Yours have been the same for a while, but last year mine, I actually changed mine. And so, yeah, I can still sometimes get caught up

in like, oh, but family. I mean, I work with my family. I love my family. I want to spend all I work with my family. I love my family. I want to spend all my time with my family. Why isn't that one? But I have found that it can ladder up under something else. Yeah. I'm the same way.

In fact, so let me tell you my two. My two are courage and faith. What about you? Courage and growth. And I have to say that it wasn't like a, I'm gonna go to the list and pick a new one that change to growth it picked me but it actually did yeah yeah say more can you say more I mean without I don't want you to disclose you what you don't want to disclose but too late these people already know all your shit yeah I think it was just for me, it kept

growing as a person, growing as a leader, growing as a sister. I mean, I thought about it being curiosity because it was kind of the same for me, but it's not. I just want to keep growing. I want to keep doing my personal work. I have a therapist. I have a leadership coach. I'm always asking for feedback just from anybody that I'm working with every day in my marriage, as a parent. And so I think it's just I want to grow. I want to be better. And I think I don't know if we were doing the end-of-the-year values exercise with the team or what. I can't remember when it came up, but I was like, growth actually is where it is for me.

You know what it was? It was we were sitting right in here in the other office and we were doing it as a team. Oh, that, yeah. Yeah. It's so funny. I'm curious that, it's like a chicken egg question. I think you get a lot of feedback. I know that you have from me about growth, about got just remarkable growth, and especially in leadership and hard feedback. But don't think that those things don't go over to your personal life, because having difficult conversations has like been key across. Oh yeah, yeah, I don't, yeah, remind me to tell them the funny professional personal thing in a minute. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Do you think it was that you got feedback about how much growth some of the more senior leaders had seen in you? Or do you think, I mean, how do you think that shift happened? Was

it a chicken egg thing? I don't know. I think it's a great question. I'd have to think about it because I think I was coming to a point in my own personal therapy journey and then also at work where I just settled into my skin. Yeah, you could see it actually. Yeah, and so I think it was just like every single day I would wake up and just want to be like, what can I get better at today? What can I just do a little bit different? What am I not doing because it feels a little scary? And just like, do it. And also like, I feel like I was like that annoying person that, give me some feedback.

Could I have shown up a little bit better? How could I have done that differently? You know, like to everybody and not just you. But then again, I am the lucky one who sits in the room when you do all of these events for all these organizations, all of these speaking events. And I get to hear you do it like sometimes two or three times a week. And so I just really have found myself in this place where I want feedback because I want to be different. Not different, but the best version of me. So do y'all hear how she, like she's into this?

Like, do you hear how she lights up when she talks about it? That's, was it curiosity before? No. It was courage and what? I don't remember. God, I can't remember. I'd have to look at the list. Yeah. So I'm struggling right now, actually. And one of the ones, so in this list, you'll see where there's a write your own. So mine have been courage and faith for a really, really, since forever. Yes. Yeah, and probably before I did the exercise, those were the two things I leaned into.

I think courage and faith, I remember thinking about those and talking to a sponsor, an AA, about courage and faith 25 years ago or 26 years ago when I first got sober. Like those have always been my values. Now, I have wanted to change faith how many times? Like 477 times.

I don't want it to be faith. Like I really don't. Like I'm pissed off at church. I don't want it to be faith. It just seems so, it's not my favorite. So the ones that I struggle with is I think courage is a value for sure. Did you find your, did you find the one? I think it was reliability. Was it? It was either reliability or accountability one. Okay. I can't remember which one. Yeah. And whatever one it was, it was not memorable for either one of us. Cause you didn't talk about it like you talked about growth. And that's how like, boom, you're on it, you know?

So for me, the two that I really struggle with are curiosity, because I would say that's just a huge part of who I am. I know. And it's like your superpower. Maybe. Yeah. And then the other one that is something something it's my word of the year you know Allie Edwards my friend Allie has the word of the year it's the word of the year and it's also the bullshit that on my Enneagram that says like I can't get integrated as a number one until I get

better at this but discernment like I need to be more discerning. I need to make better choices and not- But is that a value? Is it a value or is it a skill? I mean, could you think of other things that would ladder up under discernment? Like, would you lean into, well, yeah, you would lean into discernment. Yes. When shit gets hard. Yes. Yes.

Yeah. So for example, today playing pickleball. No, I'm not kidding. I didn't play today, so I can't wait to hear about it. So it was me and Andrew against Lindsay and Steve. So separated married couples. That's always the best way to do it. And I would say the match score ended up being fairly uneven,

but we did pickle them once and that counts as four games. So it ended up being, it was mine. Pickle is like, we beat them something zero, you know, 11-0. If you don't know what pickleball is, it's like tennis, but on a smaller court with a plastic ball. And it's my, it's my pickleball. It's one of my values. But you know, like, so when I'm, you're standing at this, like they're standing at this line up against the net and dinking is when you're doing like a soft game, like you're just doing it barely over the net, barely over the net. And you're waiting for pickleball is all about like forcing someone to make a mistake so you can kill the ball so you can slam the ball. And so I was like

dinking and I just kept saying discernment, discernment. And so instead of like going, well, that's a little bit high, boo, let me kill it. And it going into the net, I was like trying to be discerning. And so, but discernment is a huge thing for me, but damn it. And curiosity is I think a superpower of mine. But when it comes down to brass tacks, like it or not, it comes down to faith and courage for me. Because I think faith fuels my belief that I can be discerning and it'll make a difference. Like even like when I pray for discernment, I say, you know, God grant me the serenity except the things, I usually say, God grant me the serenity except the shit I cannot, you know, change. The courage to change the things

I can and the wisdom and grace of discernment. That's powerful. You know, which one is which, which is stuff I, you know, and even with like curiosity, I'm curious because of my faith, because, and my courage, like it takes courage to be curious for me, because I have a tendency to be valued for being a knower. And so I need to be brave and say, I don't know. I'm interested. Tell me more. And then I think for me, I guess it's just vulnerability is also probably a big value of mine. So I guess what I'm saying is for everybody listening, you may think, well, courage is the root of everything, but it's not true because for some people, curiosity, that courage may be really important to them, but where that's forged is in curiosity. You know, for me, my stuff is forged in courage. My stuff is forged in my faith. I don't want it to be.

And I'm going to say, like, if you use this example of dinking outside of the kitchen and pickleball, mine definitely is courage. I'm like, courage to be patient, patient, patient, patient, patient. Because you're like, I just want to hit the ball hard. Yeah. patient because you're like, I just want to hit the ball hard. And so I'm like, it takes courage for me and probably growth to be patient. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's really true. So I hope what we're illustrating for you is that it's not easy. It's not easy to pick your values and you may want to revisit after you do, but just think about the power of just talking about this.

You know, and I have to figure out what my faith means to me too. Like I have to figure out, for me, when it comes to faith, it's about mystery and believing things I can't see all the time because I'm such a data person. So you're going to pick your two values, value one

and two in no order. Then we're going to go to the second part. And I love this part. This is called taking values from bullshit to behavior. And the reason I call it this is because I do so much work in organizations where they have values. They have posters, they have handouts, they have shit that people have, you know, thumbtack to their cubicles. And when I ask people, what does that look like? But behaviorally, if you work for me, I'll know that your behaviors are aligned

with those organizational values. How? And people will be like, I don't know. There's just, you know, we memorize these and then we're told to memorize them in onboarding. I don't know what they mean. It's crazy. It's crazy. And so we found in our research them in onboarding. I don't know what they mean. It's crazy. It's crazy.

And so we found in our research, and again, this is going on 11 years of research in organizations, somewhere around 10% of organizations that we've worked with, and I'm talking about a lot of the Fortune 100 companies, about 10% have operationalized their values into observable behaviors

that people are actually taught and held accountable for. Very few. So that's like what I always say. I tell people all the time when I'm doing the dare to lead work, I'm like, if I see another poster with a big bald eagle on it that says integrity, what does that mean? Fly fast and catch shit with your claws. Like, I don't know what it means. And so we want to take it from like gauzy bullshit words to behaviors. Okay. Before you go into this part of the exercise, go back to the professional versus personal values. Yeah. So we do this a lot in organizations and people will always raise

their hand and say, Hey, you know, Brene, should I be listing my personal values or my professional values? And whoa, like yikes, we only have one set. And the problem arises when we feel like we have to splinter ourselves and have a set of values for who we really are and then a set of values at work. Because one of the most ferocious unseen drivers of disengagement at work is a values, you know, there's no alignment in my values and the organization's values, that almost is not fixable. Yeah. Yeah. So we have one set of values. So the next question is, we're going to look at each value. So starting with your first value, Barrett, we'll take growth for you and we'll just do one of them. Okay. And y'all can do them at home. What are one or two behaviors that support your value, specific observable behaviors of growth?

I think for sure when I ask questions, I am really, I never have to be the knower. I always like to be the learner. So one very specific behavior is when I'm asking questions, when I'm like, hey, hold on, slow down. I really don't understand where we're going or can you say it in a different way because I'm not tracking? So asking questions for one. And then I think another specific behavior for me is when things feel really hard and dicey, no matter personal, professional, if I can take five minutes to myself and just think about like, what's actually happening here? Why am I reacting this way?

That's interesting. Both questions. I'm asking myself questions or I'm asking other people questions. Yeah. This is so beautiful because let me go back to, but what's driving those questions for you is not curiosity. What's driving those questions for you is growth. That's what makes you come alive. Yeah, I think so. Yeah. Yeah. And I'm staying away from courage for both of us because we talk so much about courage in our work. Okay. So for me, a couple

of behaviors that support my value of, ah, fuck, I have to talk about faith. Okay. Sorry. That's one sentence you won't hear a lot. Yeah. Maybe you will. If you're a member of the Episcopal church, you will. Yeah. What are one or two behaviors that support my value of faith? Hmm. God, I don't know. I'm going to say this. We're not going to edit this out because this is good modeling, blah, blah, blah. I don't know. I don't know that I've been engaged in behaviors that... I'm going to go, I'm going to take us on the wildest non sequitur. Are you ready?

Yeah, ready. I'm going to take on a ride. Ready? Strap yourselves in. Just put your seatbelts on. I think I've been struggling with this a lot because in the AA big book, one of the most important things to me in the big book is the promise of neutrality. That if you work your program, and it's a deeply spiritual program, it's a deeply faithful program. If you work your program, whether you believe in God or not, it doesn't, that's, I have a lot of friends who work a deeply faithful spiritual program that don't believe in God. But if you work your program, you experience the gift of neutrality where you're neither running as fast as you can toward the beer, nor are you running away from the beer as fast as you can. And I've had deep neutrality probably

six months into my sobriety around alcohol. Now the bread basket is a different situation, the bread basket. So in order for me to have or work, like too much work, in order to have the gift of neutrality, it's interesting. Do you know what the prerequisite is? What? You have to be in fit spiritual condition. Damn. Yeah. And so I think for me, the way I think about my faith is that I think about the behaviors that support my value of faith are the behaviors that support being in fit spiritual condition. And I actually think that that is moving my body, resting my body, and play. But I also think there's a relationship for me with God that I've really been negligent around. So I think I've been actually out of alignment. I'm having a real-time epiphany.

I think I have been out of spiritual condition. And I think I've been out of alignment with my faith value more than I am in other times in my life. And I think it's because I'm grappling with ways to do that that don't involve church. Yeah. I still love church, but I only like to go to church so I can sing. I like to pass the peace. I love the peace be with you. Also with you.

And yeah, I like to go to the communion and be at the rail with people because it reminds me that there's something bigger than us. But yeah, so I think I'm out of alignment a little bit. So let's go to the second question. What are one or two slippery behaviors that are outside of your value of growth? I think definitely when I turn into the knower, which isn't often, but when I get really caught

up in having to know the answers instead of just listening. It's very specifically what I'm planning to say back to you in a conversation. I'm working on what I'm planning to say back to you in a conversation, I'm working on what I'm going to say back to you instead of listening. Okay. So that's a specific behavior. You are like on fire, Barrett. Yeah. And she's so deep in her value of growth right now. I mean, like if you could see her, it's like tattooed across her forehead. I mean, you just see it when you see you, but I love the specificity of that behavior because it almost ties back to James Clear of the James Clear podcast. Like your values are identity-based.

You know, like when you find yourself planning what you're going to say instead of listening, you're not a growth person. No, you're not. That's so good. Is there another one you can think of? You're kind of just an asshole. You know, but you're maybe, I don't know if you're an asshole, but you're probably thinking of me when you say that. No, I'm not. I was like thinking of a very specific situation for me, but I think it's- I'm trying to win because I'm afraid. Yeah.

Yeah. And sometimes you're just so far in. Like for me, it's terrible. Sometimes you're just so far into the conversation that you can't just say, yeah, you know what? You're right. For four weeks. We're not wired that. That's not, that's genetically incompatible with our wiring. Yeah. So part of me, very specifically, a behavior that I'm working on in growth is holding people accountable within a couple of hours of something happening. And so for me, an indicator light would be if I very specifically make up reasons where I don't have to communicate or see that person for three days. Then I'm outside my two-hour window. So we talk about the language of indicator lights. Like what are the

indicator lights? I think it's on the next page, but what are the indicator lights? Yeah, I love that. So there's a meeting and someone that, you know, someone that reports to you. Or even, no, even at home or, you know, like even. Something hurt your feelings. Yeah. Even, even like something hurt my feelings or like, I even showed up in a way that was shitty that I wanted to circle back for, but because it's going to be hard, I'm like, okay, well, I'm not feeling too good. I should probably stay home for the rest of the weekend, you know, or because it's easier. It's actually not easier, weekend, you know, or because it's easier. It's actually not easier. But in the second, you think it's easier to kind of avoid than to jump right in.

So that's definitely an indicator light for me. Hello, I'm Esther Perel, psychotherapist and host of the podcast, Where Should We Begin, which delves into the multiple layers of relationships mostly romantic but in this special series i focus on our relationships with our colleagues business partners and managers listen in as i talk to co-workers facing their own challenges with one another and get the real work done tune into housework a special series from Where Should We Begin? sponsored by Klaviyo. The company deploys more than 100 apps, and ideas about the work we do can be radically changed by the tools we use to do it.

So what is enterprise software anyway? What is productivity software? How will AI affect both? And how are these tools changing the way we use our computers to make stuff, communicate, and plan for the future? In this three-part special series, Decoder is surveying the IT landscape presented by AWS. Check it out wherever you get your podcasts. Okay. I'm going to ask, I'm going to write down something because I want to ask you about it in a minute. Hold on. Oh boy. Don't look. Okay. And one thing I was going to say, what are behaviors that support my value of faith? I will tell you that one of the biggest ones, I was just thinking about the last real moment

of electrifying faith. Like where I felt like my feet were planted into the earth and connected to every person that has ever walked the earth before me. And that my hands were shooting lightning bolts and connecting to everyone in the whole world. You can do tell. Yeah, no, I mean like, was the last time I met with Diana, my therapist, who's also a deeply

spiritual person. And we were talking about something and I said, can I tell a weird story? And then I told this weird story and she goes, that's so crazy. There was an article that I wanted to send you about that very person. And I said, oh my God, that person? I just shot you an email. Have you seen it yet? Yesterday. And it was like all these wild connections. But I was like, is this so weird what's happening?

And she's like, no, there's nothing weird about what's happening right now. And so I guess one of the behaviors that supports my value. I have to really, like, why are you shaking your head so radically? Because you see me when I'm in that. Yeah, I totally see you in, yes, I totally do. Yeah. It's weird when it happens. Yeah.

So I guess I would say, and this is hard, this might make me cry. One of the behaviors that supports my value is when I believe myself. Let me just say that whole sentence because it might be big for me. One of the behaviors that supports my value of faith is when I believe myself before I can find evidence or data. Yeah, yes. Do you know what I mean? Yeah.

Fuck, that's good. Okay. The slippery behaviors that are outside of my value is, I know what drives it, is certainty and fear drive the behaviors that are outside of my values. Like I have to be in a, and I don't think it's an accident that that therapy session with Diana when that happened.

I don't think that's an accident that that happened after I'd been off for two weeks. And I was open to it. Yeah. You know, and I think my receptors are, you know, out of whack right now. Yeah, they would have to be. Yeah, it's just disastrous. You have no space. I mean, there's like no place to connect to yourself.

Yeah. Yeah, so a slippery behavior outside of my value is certainty, as Diana said to me 10 years ago. That's really sad. I just want to let you know that there was a seven-year hiatus in between the therapy. It wasn't straight through, okay? Don't get cocky if you're listening. I remember I was saying, but I need to do this. And she goes, wow, it's like you live by that saying, let go and let Brene. She said it again? Yeah. No, no, this was seven years ago. Okay, got it. I mean.

No, and so how can I hear God and be connected to God and be connected to my faith when it's like, and Brene's will, will be done. My timing, my, you know, and so. Because you have to let go a little. Yeah. I think when we're talking about this question of kind of what are the slippery behaviors that are outside your value, I think back to the podcast that we did with Dr. Sarah Lewis, who God we love, right? She's amazing. She's just amazing. And the concept of surrender, which I just had like, ooh, the hairs on the back of my neck stand up when I think, do they with you too? Do you have that word? Yeah. Yeah. I

don't like it. It's like, give up. But Sarah has this quote that's so beautiful. She writes, there is no way to measure surrender's impact. We know its efficacy when we see it. After the deep pain of coming close or failures of all kinds, we break open enough to contain, invite, and triumph over more. And so what Sarah Lewis taught me is that surrender is not about giving up.

It's about giving over. And I think about like, I have the Meemaw box. You know, our grandma, we called Meemaw and we have this old box that has Meemaw's picture on the top of it. And sometimes I just write what is scaring me or what's giving me pain or, and I just fold it and give it over, you know? And so I think my slippery behavior is when I get into the let go and let Brene instead of, you know, giving over. Love it. So what is an example? This is the last question on this. What's an example of a time when you were fully living into your value? Well, most recently, I think a big change at work. And I think it was all about asking some really hard questions to myself,

asking some really hard questions in some meetings that I felt like really in my value of growth. I love that. I was there. I know you were. I saw it. It was magic. Man, is there nothing more miraculous than to see someone really living into their value? Yeah, it's amazing. It's incredible. Oh man. Let me tell you, I've done this with Ellen and Charlie. Oh really? Yeah. And who knows what their values are going to be when they're not 22 and 16, but it's helpful. Like, you know, you're driving home from something and you feel like crap and you're like,

man, did I show up in my values? And if the answer is yes, you can be like, yeah, I did. It was just hard. It was just crappy. How old do you think? Like, do you think I could do it? Mine's 11. I think you could if it was framed in the way

that these may change over the course of your life and it doesn't have to be forever, but right now in your life, when you kind of look at this list, what are 15 words that are important to you about who you are? And then what are the couple where these have to be in place for everything else to happen? I think it'd be, yeah. And I think it's just, you have to make it developmentally appropriate and exploratory, not this is it. Yeah, totally. Oh, that's not, okay. I have to go now. Okay. So next question, who is someone who knows your values and supports your efforts to live? Oh, and I will just tell you, I forgot mine. My, when I know I'm in my values, I'm so excited right now about recommitting to being in spiritual fit condition and protecting

that time because that electricity is like the fuel for everything I do in my life, my research, my work, my parenting, my partnership. I'm really glad we had to talk about it. I didn't, maybe it was just supposed to happen that way. Yeah. Yeah. There you go. So when was the last time that I was in my value of faith is talking to you right now about faith, even though I didn't want to. It would have been so much easier to go courage because I have a lot of examples of when I'm brave in hard times because it's just part of my work. But I think I need both in equal measure. All right.

Who is someone who knows your values and supports your efforts to live into them? You. I love you. I love you. I love you back. Yeah, you are too. You are someone. Yeah. And also you are like, you're outside your values right now a little bit. Yeah. So both.

Yeah. So I'm going to ask you a hard question. And you can ask me if you want to, but you don't have to. Okay. What do you think drives the decisions and behaviors that I engage in that move me away from my value of faith the most? To be honest with you, and you're just like, I have not had any time to prep for this question, but I would just say when you're in overload with work and you don't have any space, because for me, it's like, I could be wrong, but the story that I make up about it is that you're really aligned in your value of faith when you have space, when you're creating, when you're thinking about what the future holds for you, for your family, for the organization.

But when you're in the weeds and you're like way too much shit on your plate and you can't stay connected to yourself, that is when I think that you can fall outside. I think that's true. That's really insightful. Thank you. You're welcome. I'm not asking. That's right.

Well, what do you think? What do you think or when do you think I'm outside of my value of growth? I'll be really honest with you. Probably for the past couple of years, I haven't seen you outside of your growth value very much at work. I think, caveat at work. No, and when I think you are, you circle back so quick. It's just like, hey, you know what? Instead of asking more about that, I got really shitty. And so I'm overwhelmed or something. But I haven't seen you. I think your personal life control.

You don't know me. Yeah, control that like in order for me to grow in this area, I'm going to have to let go of some control. Like it's hot. We all get really red hot. It's uncomfortable. Yeah, no, I think, yeah, control. But I think it's interesting because.

It's true. It is true. But I think I'm in the weeds of things I shouldn't be in the weeds of at work out of control. And fear. Yeah. Well, times, they are changing. Yeah, times are changing. Yeah.

So that's a good, hard question. I'm glad you asked first. Yeah. I mean, I think, because I wonder if in the end, for all of us, as you're thinking about your own values and you're thinking about what drives a lot of the behaviors that get in the way of you being aligned, I think for all of us, it's going to come down to vulnerability and uncertainty and control and fear. It's going to come down to armor and self-protection. Yeah. Yeah. I was telling Gabby, we were talking, I don't know how we got on the subject of the Enneagram.

And she hasn't taken it, obviously. She's 11, although we might soon. But when I was telling her I was a six, and I was like, oh, it's a worrier. Like, we were talking about it. I was like, but the most integrated sixes are the most courageous. I was like, so it's like, that's what I'm working towards.

Yeah, I mean, that's, yeah, isn't that incredible? Like, in the Enneagram world, which we're just saying that we don't know the validity and reliability. We've looked at a lot of the- And the memes are, if the memes hurt your feelings. Yeah. You got it right. That's the right number.

Don't worry because they're not valid or reliable. Then you got the right number. I'll say the other part. We don't know about the, look, I don't know about the reliability and validity of the instrument. I know that some scales are better than others, but I also have a lot of questions about the big five in psychology, which are, you know, reputed to be stellar. I just don't know. I think you take all that stuff with a grain of salt, but I will say it's been helpful for us. Oh, totally. Yeah. And I do love how that fear is a big thing for sixes.

But when they start integrating and doing the work and examining and growing, that they become the bravest of all of us. But how I got there was the control thing. Yeah. Because the six just like craves control of the situation. And I got some issues around control, I won't lie. Is that a value? Can we add that control to the list?

I'd like to pick control as my primary value. I know a lot of CEOs. Yeah. My two values, command and control. Well, let's not work there, guys. Yeah, no, work there. All right, what does support from me look like? Because I'm your person here.

What does support from me look like around your value of growth? I think just holding me accountable. And when you see me slipping outside of that, call me out on it. And I think you do in a very nice, loving way. I would say the same. I would just say accountability is what it looks like. Accountability and a lot of times you always say there's nothing wrong.

I think we say to each other, actually, there's nothing wrong with you. You're not broken. Everything is okay. And you're great. And this is a hard time. I think we say that to each other. And Ashley usually leads the way. She sure does. The therapist sister. Okay. So what can you do as an act of self-compassion to support yourself in the hard work of living into your values, both of them? I don't know that I would have ever named this as something I could do for myself until now, but oh man, doing my personal work has been the most life-changing thing I've ever, the most life-changing gift I've ever given myself or my family. I would say a hundred percent the same. Yeah. Yeah. I would say I want to live in a country that has secured voting rights for all people

and that everyone has access to good mental health care. Yeah. That's how you save democracy. Yeah. Sign me up. Yeah. Okay, and crush white supremacy and the patriarchy. Yeah.

But I think if everyone had mental health care, I don't know if it would work or not, but I think the two are inextricably connected. Yeah. Back to the command and control thing. Jeez, yes. Okay. This is our values.

This is good, right? This is harder. It's always harder than I think it's going to be when we have these conversations. Oh, we've done this values exercise before, but always go a step deeper on the podcast because it's just us. It's just, yeah, it's just you and me in this little blue room. But yeah, I really appreciate you doing it with me. It was really, it was exhibited both growth and courage. Oh, thank you.

And yours, I love your epiphany around faith. Like, it's so important. Epiphany around faith? I really like that. No, it is really important and I'm excited. I will say that, you know, I'm making changes. Yeah. Wait, when is this going to be recorded? This is going to go out next Wednesday. Oh, good. Well, if you're listening to the podcast, you'll know that I have indeed am working hard to make changes to get realigned with my values. All right. Download the PDF. It'll be on the homepage of BreneBrown.com. Scroll down past

the picture of me looking serious, talking into the mic and my little camo jacket. And then halfway down, you'll see the PDF for this episode. You can listen, do the exercise, go back if you want to. The other thing is, hey, man, do this with a sibling, a friend, a group of friends, your book club, like do this. And let me just tell you this, if you decide to do this with a group of people, like more than just two, one of the neat things you can do is, and we do this when we do it with teams, right? We do this with our own team and we do this when we do organizational work outside of our company, is we get one of those poster post-it notes.

It's kind of like 8x12 or 11x17. And we write everyone's name at the top. And then after we're done with this, everyone writes one thing that they've observed. Like, this is, Barrett, I can see you in your value of growth when you, and then everyone has this take home sheet. And I have to tell you, just, I know this is, you know, I can't compartmentalize Dare to Lead and Unluckyness because they're just about being human. But when we do this in families, if you've got older kids, when we do this at work, when

we do this in teams, when we do this with our pickleball partners or, you know, like tennis partners or sports teams. Imagine working with people for years and years and years and never knowing what their values are. Imagine doing this. Could you guess what your partner's values are? Maybe, maybe not. Yeah. You know, it's a real way of sharing ourself with each other that has some guardrails, has some container building built into it and can be powerful. Okay. Thank you again for the conversation, Bea. Yeah, it was good.

It was so good. Thank y'all. We're glad to be back. We're glad to be with you again. If January is an awkward, brave, and kind month, I don't know what is. And hey, I have to also mention while we're here with everybody, the support for Atlas of the Heart. Yes. I mean, just number one, every week over and over. I mean, it was, I just, I can't even believe it. So thank you. And I would love for seeing social, if there's something you think you'd like us to do around it, there's something big coming up in a couple of months. Well, in February, we're going to release the audio of Atlas and I'm reading it. Sorry that it didn't

launch at the same time, but I wanted to make sure I read it and I just couldn't do it because I was creating space for my value. Or just dragging behind us getting through the end of the year. Yeah. But actually I said no to it. I actually couldn't. I did. I said, I want to take credit for that because I actually said, I can't do that in a way that's meaningful to me. Yeah. And I think it'll hurt me and my family and myself. So I just- You're right.

Yeah. So thank you. We're back. We're going to be back with Dare to Lead as well. And just grateful you're here. Yeah. Stay awkward, brave, and kind. Unlocking Us is produced by Brene Brown Education and Research Group.

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