Unlocking Us with Brené Brown - Brené, Ashley, and Barrett on Atlas of the Heart: A Sisters Book Club, Part 2 of 3

Episode Date: December 8, 2021

It’s Part 2 of the three-part Sisters Book Club series, where Ashley and Barrett turn the tables and interview me about Atlas of the Heart: Mapping Meaningful Connection and the Language of Human Experience. We dive into the specific findings on some of the 87 emotions and experiences covered in the book. And they ask me the podcast rapid-fire questions — including my top five songs. Plus, they include some brand-new rapid-fire questions that I didn’t expect. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hi everyone, I'm Barrett Guillen, and I'm Ashley Brown-Ruiz, and this is Unlocking Us. Welcome to part two of the three-part Sisters Book Club on Brene's new book, Atlas of the Heart, Mapping Meaningful Connection and the Language of Human Experience. I'm Ashley, and I'm Barrett. I'm sure you guys remember us, but in case you don't, I'm the Chief of Staff at Brene Brown Education and Research Group. And I'm Ashley, a clinical licensed social worker and the Senior Director of the Daring Way. And we're also Brene's little sisters and twins, and we're here to put on a concert and sing a few songs.

That's what Ashley wants to do. Just playing. So last week was really fun. and sing a few songs. That's what Ashley wants to do. Just playing. So last week was really fun. We actually turned the tables a little bit and interviewed Brene about her new book, Atlas of the Heart. It was really fun and cool, but it was, I'd have to say,

it was harder than I thought it was going to be. It was so much harder. I don't think I realized how Brene really leads the conversation and we just had to follow. And this, we're definitely leading. We did a great job. We did do a great job, but there were definitely some times where I was fanning myself, red face, but it was really fun. We also talked about how biology, biography, behavior, and backstory shape our emotions and experiences. It's really amazing how having vocabulary around emotions and experiences not only helps us understand them, but can actually shape them. Yeah, that was really cool.

And it was cool to be able to hear how Brene got to some of these things and to just really learn like what stood out for her, what were some aha moments. And I love in this week's episode, we actually dig into the 87 emotions and experiences of the book. So if y'all could see my book, y'all would laugh because there are so many flags and sticky notes and stickers because I just had so many questions or just wanted to talk to Brene and Barrett about what I read and what questions I had. And then at the end of today's episode, we also get to do rapid fire with Brene

and she tells us about her favorite songs. And so second part is really fun. Yeah, and some unexpected rapid fire questions that she didn't know were coming. We were really nice, but yeah. And guys, in part three of the three part series, we're asking all of Brene's newsletter subscribers to submit any questions they have. Reminder, we won't be able to get to all of them, but we're going to get to as many as we can. Y'all, if you're part of the newsletter, submit your questions and we'll be answering them for our next episode. It's going to be fun.

It's going to be really fun. Support for this show comes from Macy's. Fall is in full swing, and it's the perfect time to refresh your home and wardrobe for the sweater weather with new finds from Macy's. From October 9th to October 16th, get amazing deals on shoes and boots on sale at 30 to 40% off. And you can shop new styles during the Macy's Fab Fall Sale from October 9th to October 14th. Shop oversized knits, warm jackets, and trendy charm necklaces and get 25 to 60% off on top brands when you do. Plus, get great deals on cozy home accessories from October 18th to October 27th. Shop in-store or online at Macy's.com. About a year ago, two twin brothers in Wisconsin discovered, kind of by accident, that mini golf might be the perfect spectator sport for the TikTok era.

Meanwhile, a YouTuber in Brooklyn found himself less interested in tech YouTube and more interested in making coffee. This month on The Verge Cast, we're telling stories about these people who tried to find new ways to make content, new ways to build businesses around that content, and new ways to make content about those businesses.

Our series is called How to Make It in the Future, and it's all this month on The Vergecast, wherever you get podcasts. We always read the official bio of the guest, and since Brene is our guest this week, here's Brene's official bio. A long, long time ago. Dr. Brown is a research professor at the University of Houston, where she holds the Huffington Foundation Endowed Chair at the Graduate College of Social Work. Brene is also a visiting professor in management at the University of Texas at Austin McComb School of Business. She spent the past

two decades studying courage, vulnerability, shame, and empathy. She's the author of five number one New York Times bestsellers and is the host of Unlocking Us and Dare to Lead. Brene's books have been translated into more than 30 languages, and her titles include Dare to Lead, Braving the Wilderness, Rising Strong, Daring Greatly, and The Gifts of Imperfection. Most recently, Brene collaborated with Tarana Burke to co-edit You Are Your Best Thing, Vulnerability, Shame, Resilience, and the Black Experience. And now we have Atlas of the Heart. That's right. Her TED Talk on the Power of Vulnerability is one of the top five most viewed TED Talks in the world with over 50 million views. She is also the first researcher to have a film lecture on Netflix, The Call to Courage,

special debuted on the streaming service in April, 2019. That was a fun trip. That was fun. Brene lives in Houston, Texas with her husband, Steve, and they have two kids, Ellen and Charlie. And a dog named Lucy. Yeah, we're Lucy. Let's jump in.

Okay, guys, we're back for episode two of The Book Club. Don't forget for episode three, we're going to be answering your questions, but more to come on that. Now we're back with... Ashley. And we're interviewing... Brene. And I am... Barrett.

Wow. I mean, she sounds like, hey, guys and gals, dudes and dudettes. Oh, grease. Yeah. All the dance floor. Oh, grease. Yeah. On the dance floor. Oh my God. That's what you sound like. Very suave.

Rico. One day, maybe we could talk about my practice ESPN commentating. Yeah. Is that like a dream? No,

we did that. Whenever you send us on our brand tour in Atlanta and we went to the College Football Hall of Fame, they have like an ESPN desk, and we all took turns commentating, and I did well. I think Murdoch has one too. Oh my God.

I have one of Murdoch, and I have one of me. I think you were really good. Yeah, it was fun. I like it. Okay. Oh, speaking of sports, did you see that your Liverpool coach got a yellow card today for arguing on the sideline? I'm sure he was right.

As you walk. No, I'm just kidding. No. Let's do it. Through the valley of the shadow. No. Jeez. Okay.

So, last episode, we talked about the book. Brene shared some insights on her writing, on the research. And now we're going to dig into the nitty gritty of some of these emotions and experiences. So the first one that we want to talk about, Brene, is stress and overwhelm. Oh, yeah. I have no idea. They've been prepping without me. She knows none of the questions. It's like a real interview up in here. Okay. Stress and overwhelm.

So it comes from chapter one, places we go when things are uncertain or too much. And this is a real book club, guys. We're going to turn in our books. Pages four to six. Pages four to six. The first rule of book club, there is no book club. Okay. Can you elaborate?

Say more. I don't know what you're talking about. Oh, you don't? She missed the movie. Oh, Fight Club? She didn't get the memo. The first rule of Fight Club, there is no Fight Club? Oh, no.

No, no, I'm not a great movie watcher. Okay, well, I would never see that movie because it's way too violent, but I do know the cultural references. I'll learn. Just that one. So stressed and overwhelmed. I think the thing that I learned the most about these words are when we use, I mean, I say I'm overwhelmed all the time. Do y'all? Yeah.

Yes. And again, from the first podcast we did, language doesn't just communicate emotion. It shapes emotion. It triggers all kinds of reactions in our body. So when we say we're overwhelmed, it's really telling our body things are happening too fast. We can't handle them. Shut down, shut down. So one of the things I've noticed is now that I understand the difference between stress and overwhelm, I'm very careful to think to myself, am I stressed? Or am I at the extreme end of stress, which is overwhelm? Or am I overwhelmed? And one of the

things that the literature was really clear about is that the only cure for overwhelm is really nothingness. And so I think you've seen me bear it since I wrote the book. I'll say, you know what? I'm overwhelmed. And I walk out of here and I go straight to the parking lot. And I just walk circles in the parking lot for 10 or 15 minutes and then I can come back and try to reset. I tell a story in the book how waiting tables for Pappas, so it's a Houston based family owned group. So P Doe, Papa Cito's. Am I forgetting any of them? Papa Doe.

Papa's Burgers. Papa's everything now. But you say barbecue. Papa, Papa, Papa. She's back in Greece. Oh, Papa's Barbecue. Yeah, no, it was so good. So I worked for Papa's for maybe six years, I think,

through undergrad and partly in graduate school. And one of the things that I have compared in the book, I've used the analogy of being in the weeds or being blown at work. And so when you're in a restaurant situation and things are really crazy, I might run into the kitchen and be like, oh my God, y'all, I'm in the weeds. Ashley, I need you to take tea to tables two, four, and seven. Barrett, can you take bread to tables one and three? And while you're out there, can you check to see if table nine has put their card out for me to run their tab? That's in the weeds. And I think that's stressed. Here's the definition, the research definition of stress. We feel stress when we evaluate environmental demand as beyond our ability to cope successfully. This includes

elements of unpredictability, uncontrollability, and feeling kind of overloaded. So we can manage daily stressors. Now at Papa's and maybe other places, I don't know, if you walked into the kitchen and you just said, Jesus, I'm blown, it'd be a really different situation. Like someone would just come up and grab where you write all your tickets, your pad. Someone would go up to the hostess stand and say, what tables does she have? Because they would believe that they couldn't even count on you. Yeah. To say, here are my table numbers. Like blown is just like, I don't even know what's happening. I can't formulate a list that's comprehensive enough for you to even get me out of this. I'm so overwhelmed. Yeah. And then the rule was, at least with the kitchen managers I had, was you either have to

go into the cooler, you have to go outside, you have to go sit in your car, but you can't do anything for 10 or 15 minutes. Then you can come back and kind of reset and start. And it was actually like, I have to give it to those folks because as the research shows, the nothingness is the only way to really reset after overwhelm. My favorite definition of overwhelm, here's the research one that overwhelm means an extreme level of stress and emotional and or cognitive intensity to the point of feeling unable to function. So I think the big difference is we can function in stress. We really can't function in overwhelm. But Jon Kabat-Zinn has my favorite really like deeply resonating definition of overwhelm. He writes that overwhelm is the all too common feeling

that our lives are somehow unfolding faster than the human nervous system and psyche are able to manage. Jesus. So now that we know from the first podcast we did together for Atlas, now that we know that emotion doesn't just convey what we're feeling, it shapes it. It's not, if you make the chocolate chip cookies in a bowl, the bowl can change the taste of the cookie. That's language. So now I really do not use the

word overwhelm unless I'm prepared to walk out and do nothing for 10 or 15 minutes. Or to convey like I'm prepared to walk out and do nothing for 10 or 15 minutes. Or to convey like I'm done. Yeah. And if I'm done, I know I have to do nothingness. So like, if I'm like, oh shit, man, I'm overwhelmed. That's not overwhelmed. So don't say it because you're really telling your body to start kind of shutting down. Yeah. I mean, I interchange these words all the time. Same. This was like one of the bigot. Well, there were quite a few aha moments for me in the book, but this one specifically,

and it's crazy because we use in the weeds and blown at work. We've used it for a long time. We have. But I was even using that wrong. And so like reading this book, it's interesting because even now, if someone that's like reporting up to me or something is blown, now I know how to handle it. Like they can't tell you. No. And if you see that things are not functioning. Yeah. Balls are dropping, balls are dropping.

And as balls drop, they get more behind and aren't able to reset and pick them up. A lot of times as leaders and sometimes even as parents, we're just like, suck it up. What can I help with? As opposed to I'm taking everything off your plate. Yeah. For a day, for an hour. And so I've been really talking to Charlie about the difference between stress and overwhelm. And just tell him when you're actually overwhelmed, we need to stop. Looking back on the history of B-Berg, which is our

company, Brene Brown Education Research Group, how many shitty decisions have we made when overwhelmed? Quite a few. Yeah. Because we should say, do nothing, decide nothing, say nothing, nothing. Yeah. This one really resonated with me. Yeah, me too. Can I just say this to you? Yeah. When I was looking at this, I was reading the book for the first time.

It's really weird because like when I give a talk, I sometimes don't remember what I said because I just, I don't know, it's just a weird energy and I'm like blacked out after it's over. Sometimes I'm like, wow. They're like, yeah, you said that word three times and you know, so just get ready for Twitter. But when I was rereading this, let me read this for you. I'm going to start from this beginning. I'm on page seven. Jon Kabat-Zinn describes overwhelm as the all too common feeling, quote, that our lives are somehow unfolding faster than the human nervous system and psyche are able to manage well.

Then I write, this really resonates with me. It's all unfolding faster than my nervous system can manage. When I read that Kabat-Zinn suggests that mindful play or no agenda, non-doing time is the cure for overwhelm. It made sense to me why when we were blown at the restaurant, we weren't asked to help problem solve the situation. We were just asked to engage in non-doing. I don't know that the managers at Pappas had done a lit review on overwhelm, but I'm sure that their experience

taught the managers that doing nothing was really the only way for people to successfully come back and be able to go back on the floor. And it's a high pace, hard place to work sometimes. But then I'm seeing mindful play, no agenda, non-doing. And so I really actually think this is pickleball. Oh God. Yeah. This is pickleball for me is mindful play because like I actually played this morning and I maybe played five games, six games. And the first four or five games I played really well. But then as it got closer to needing to like watch time, get home, shower, like what the hell are Ashley and Barrett going to ask me? I miss like five or six really shots that I don't normally miss because it wasn't mindful play. Like I wasn't in the present and you just can't do well in that sport. I don't know that you can do well in any sport. So mindful play,

I think is something that really helps me. So probably up until what, a year ago, if we as an organization were overwhelmed, the first thing I would start to cancel is things like pickleball. Yeah. And now I just, I refuse. Yeah. Like you've got deliverables and, you know, big media partners are waiting for things. I'm like, I got pickleball in the morning. Because I can't, it's my way out of, not only is it my way out of overwhelm, I think about the Nagoski Sister podcast about burnout.

It helps me complete my stress cycles. Yeah. So helpful. Yeah. Okay, so I'm taking us on our next journey through resentment. Oh, Jesus. Over here in the places we go and we compare. What page are you on?

Page 30. Okay. So I, well, this whole little chapter kicked my ass, but I really appreciated when you were talking to Mark Brackett on Unlocking Us, and he said that actually Resume, it was part of Envy. And your reply was, oh, holy shit. So I was just wondering, like, what'd you take away from this part? What'd you learn? And bigger picture, were there other, oh, holy shit moments in this

book while you were writing them? Yeah, there were so many. I mean, this was life-changing for me. This resentment is something that, God, it is just, I don't know if I'm wired for it. I think we saw a lot of it growing up. Do y'all? Yeah. Ashley, you're making a poo-poo bad cheese face. I'm not sure what that is. That's the face that like, I love the stinky cheese. And that's the face that Steve makes

as he sprints from bread to the deli counter through the gourmet cheese area in Central Market. I just like totally went into my thought process was like, oh, yeah, I saw that a lot. And then I seriously, my process went like this. God, mom really never set boundaries with dad. So she was completely angry with him all the time. Wonder what that was about. Shit, it was envy.

And then you ask the question, I lost that thought process. Oh my God. It's surreal up in here. Yeah, it's like, welcome to the fam. That's right. So when we did the Enneagram, so we all went on an Enneagram. What do you want to call that? An Enneagram?

Rabbit hole. I don't know. I remember one night we were on the phone for hours talking about how our behaviors were versus if we were integrated, what our behaviors were in our history, why we are that number. Yeah. And so the Enneagram, I think one of the things we like about it is that it has kind of traits and cautions, but it also has like kind of your worst self for that number and your best self. It's for sure the 100%, you don't know me, a gram. You do not know me. A gram. A gram, yes. And so I remember like the first thing everyone does when they do the Enneagram test is they go online and look at all the memes, right? Yeah.

Yeah. And they're just- still piss me off and stuff yes but you can't even say anything because they just read you for like total shit it's so terrible they're like because i was gonna say i know they're hard to read the memes but no one has it harder than the number ones because the one number one memes are so bad and then i saw a meme that said oh the poor number ones Take their memes with the very worst. I like living over here in Mamsy Pamsy like I live with number sixes. Can't get their shit together because they're scared of everything. I mean, I saw this.

I mean, I saw this. Let's just pause for a second and take y'all on a little brief side trip down the shidiogram. Because, okay, first of all, I see this meme for number ones on the Enneagram, which I'm totally number one. Because of the painful truths that were revealed in our first podcast. Why are we so hard to write this book? Yes. I was hypervigilant in taking care and controlling this environment as best I could.

But so the first thing I see is on, there's like a little like robot guy. It's like the two robot people. And a little robot comes up and says, hello, number one, how are you? I'm glad we're meeting here today. And number one said, I'm glad we're meeting here today. And number one said, I'm glad we're meeting here today. Why did you take the freeway? The back way is so much quicker and safer. And then the

other person goes, I'm not sure. Yes, you wasted a lot of time taking that. And that is not the best color on you. You should get that shirt in blue. I was like, fuck you. But then the meme that really ties to this is there was this meme on Instagram where it was a bird. I know you're laughing at me, not with me, actually. You're spitting out your drink. Now she's wiping her mouth. That's how much she's laughing at me. That there was this bird and its wings were down tight against its body and its head was lifting up and it was just like flying through the air like, you know, and it said, number one on the Enneagram, fueled by nothing but rage and resentment. And I was like, I'm not that bird.

You don't know me. You don't know me, but I am kind of that bird. And I just thought, man, I really struggle with resentment. So I'm doing this podcast with Mark Brackett and we're getting ready to go on, you know, start recording. And before we start recording, I said, hey, can I just ask you a personal question? Like not a personal question,

but like a question personally for me. And he said, sure. And I said, resentment is part of the anger family, right? Because we all know from the very first podcast we did on the book that anger was our, was our allowable emotion to feel growing up. And he goes, no, no, no, uh-uh. Resentment's not a function of that family, the anger family. Resentment is from the envy family. I mean, I could barely make it through the podcast. I was like, what does that mean? And so I would get resentful

when I'm like working 60 hours a week and then I see someone like taking a day off or on vacation or, you know, and then what I realized is I'm not mad because you're resting. I'm mad because I'm bone tired and I wanna rest. But unlike you, I pretend like I don't need to. I'm not furious that you're okay

with something that's really good and imperfect. I'm furious because I wanna be okay with it, but I let my perfectionism drive me into the ground. Like your lack of work is not making me resentful. My lack of rest is making me resentful. So now when I feel resentment creeping up, I always, I really try to say the first thing is, what do you need that you're not asking for? How are you not taking care of yourself right now? You know, and so, boo. Yeah, that one kicked my ass a little.

Yeah, that one's hard to put into practice for sure. I feel though, like knowing that it's part of envy makes it better. I don't know if it's easier to practice, but it is definitely a different lens that you're looking through. Yeah, because it is for me, like if I'm resentful towards Steve or that I'm not like critically assessing him, it's internally focused. I'm like, what's going on with me? And I think resentment is normally about what this other person's lacking instead of what we're lacking.

Yeah. Oh, it's hard. It is hard. You don't get to go again, Ashley. I am up next if you look at the list. Well, I don't have the list. Y'all are keeping it from me. Oh, no, I'm up next. Oh. We the list well I don't have the list y'all are keeping it oh no I'm up next

we're going over to disappointment and expectations oh shit you're welcome we can go over to page 43 what is that little duck from what show

this is serious I don't know. I don't know either. Okay. Is that a backyard again? No, it's the pets where there was the duck and the... Oh, yeah, with the boat. It's like not cartoon, but

not real. Yeah, yeah, yeah. There were like hamsters or gerbils or something. Yes. Oh, my gosh. What was that? This is serious. Same time as the backyard again, I think. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. We're on page 43. Okay. Disappointment and expectation. Oh, I got a lot of marquees on this page. A lot of stickers. Yeah. So the tons of definitions of disappointment, but the one that emerged from our data was disappointment is unmet expectations.

The more significant the expectations, the more significant the disappointment. This bolded sentence down here in the bottom paragraph that says, When we develop expectations, we paint a picture in our head of how things are going to be and how they're going to look. Let me just keep reading. Sometimes we go as far as to imagine how they're going to feel, taste, and smell. That picture we paint in our minds holds great value for us. We set expectations based on not only how we fit into that picture, but also on what those around us are doing in that picture.

This means that our expectations are often set on outcomes totally beyond our control, like what other people think, what they feel, how they're going to react. The movie in our mind is wonderful, but no one else knows their parts, their lines, how they're going to react. The movie in our mind is wonderful, but no one else knows their parts, their lines, and what it means to us. It's so hard. Let me just keep going on. When the picture or movie fails to play out in real life, we feel disappointment. And sometimes that disappointment is severe and brings shame and hurt and anger with it. It's a setup for us and for the people involved. Disappointment takes a toll on us and our relationships.

It requires considerable emotional bandwidth. But what it really requires, what I took from this, is that it really requires for you to ask for what you need and ask for what you want. Yes. I mean. That's so not easy for me. Yes.

Examined and expressed expectations. I mean, y'all know this story. I think we've even talked about on the podcast where Steve and I were newly married and I woke up in the morning on my birthday and we lived in this like old two bedroom, one bath, but it was upstairs, downstairs. And I kind of, you remember that one? Yeah. That I remember that we lived in. And I came like tumbling down the stairs waiting to see like balloons or some kind of like, you know, and there's nothing. And I was in counseling. I was seeing a therapist at the time and I just,

oh God, I was so hateful to him when he got out of the shower. I was just like, I just wouldn't even, I didn't even speak to him. I was so, you know, he's like, happy birthday. And I'm like, yeah. I was just so pissed. And I told the therapist, I said, you know, I come from a family that makes a big deal out of birthdays and I cannot believe there were no balloons or no signs or a card out or decorations. And she's like, well, did you ask him or tell him what you need and what would be meaningful to you? You know, I was like, no, if I have to ask him, then it's not worth it.

Like that's a sign that's probably killed a million relationships. If I have to ask, fuck off. And she goes, I think if you're not asking, then you don't think it's worth it. You don't think you're worth it. You do not know me. No, sir. No, sir.

Sit the fuck down. Yeah. Yeah. I was like, what? And it was, I mean, I just remember I said, if I have to ask, it's not worth it. I was so smug. And she goes, I think if you're not asking, you don't think you're worth it. Let me tell you the rest of that story. She didn't really stay curious there with you, did she?

No. Your people did me dirty. No. And so I told him that day that it really hurt my feelings and that birthdays were a big deal and presents were a big deal. And the next morning, I had like a little thing on the table for my birthday and he had bought me a skirt at Express that I really, really loved, but we were so broke. I was in graduate school.

He was in medical school. Broke. He had pawned his guitar for it. Oh, my gosh. I wore that skirt every day. And you're still married to him. Yes. Yeah.

Yeah. Oh, geez. He'll say to me sometimes, I'm happy to be in your movie. I'll need to know. I'll need a copy of the script before we start. Oh, Maya was reading that part because I've heard you say that with your sisters. It's true. It is true.

Yeah. Disappointment, unexamined and unexpressed expectations. I love too how in this book, when you define stuff, you bring in stories and you share about how you've seen this or how it's played out in your life before too. I think that's awesome. And just say on page 42 is an example of the beautiful imagery that we have in our book. Yeah. Oh, yes. I like this kind of like really big, like we just try to figure out what quote in the chapter or in the section took our breath away a little bit and then made them into like full page color quote cards yeah yeah all right

well let's move on to something that's a little bit more fun I'm ready okay we're gonna go to page 73 and we're gonna talk a little bit about amusement because I had so much fun with this one. What did you learn that was fun? So there's a quote that says, is amusement important at work? And research shows that breaks involving amusement may help replenish depleted cognitive resources and that the replenishment continues through difficult tasks. Yeah. And then, so I was thinking like, what are examples of amusement? How could we do that? Like, when do I feel amused? And so it was just a really cool moment for me, but to also see not only how it plays out in my life, but how you can take it into work or even if you're at school.

Like when I thought about teaching kindergarten and how we would do something, but then we'd stand up and do a dance or something because that was built in for younger kids. But then when we get older, it's really not. It's true. Yeah. I mean, it's a really great point. I'm going to go back and read this definition just for the folks listening. The etymology of amusement is interesting. The word dates from the late 1500s when it meant a pleasurable diversion from work or duty. According to researchers, amusement is connected to humor and includes elements of unexpectedness, incongruity, and playfulness. It's typically seen as a brief spike in a person's level of cheerfulness,

lasting only a few seconds. The definition of amusement that aligns with our research is pleasurable, relaxed excitation. Did I say that? I would have gone with you on it. I wouldn't have questioned you. Let me just say it again. The definition of amusement that aligns with our research

is pleasurable, relaxed excitement. Amusement differs from happiness in that happiness is a general sense of pleasure where amusement appeals specifically to one's sense of humor. You know what I mean? And so I think your kindergarten example is really good. Here are two themes that clearly help distinguish amusement from other positive emotions like contentment or gratitude, joy. An awareness of incongruity.

There's something unexpected about what causes us to be amused. We weren't expecting that punchline or that behavior or that timing. I think about the TikTok that I sent you. Oh my God. Oh, I sent it to y'all too about where it's like, bark at your dog. He barks back. And his dog barks back and scares the overall cat. Oh, that is so funny.

But I wasn't expecting the punchline in that one. Yeah, no, it's, there's something incongruent. Like we were kind of surprised. When we feel amusement, we feel playful with those around us. And I could see why that's really important just in families, at work. I can see why it's easier in kindergarten than when you're at work and you're adults. Because it's the incongruent that has caused us to become, feel awkward and self-conscious. And do you know what I mean?

Yeah. It makes me think of when we're in the trainings and sometimes when we come back from lunch or breaks and we pretend like we're going to do this stretching exercise. Oh, yeah. But we break into like the running man. Yeah. And we start dancing and people are like. Some people are all in it and some people are like, no, sir. I think even at our office, if we turned the song on and said dance time, maybe half of them would come.

Yeah. Because I think in order for something to be amusing to someone based on the definition, it has to be funny. And that's why I think people say, I am not amused. Yes. I mean, when I read that in the book, I read it with that tone. Yeah. Like someone was saying it like that, like just crappy. Yeah. Like if I like, you know, if I caught a frog between like that big ditch behind our house growing up, like if I caught a frog and then like put it under something and Jason opened it and was scared and then the frog got away and then he and I are laughing trying to catch it and mom would be like, I am not amused. Yeah. Yeah.

Like, is it not funny? Yeah. Although she probably would have. For you. Yeah. For you. So before we move away, what would be a fun example of amusement, like at work for a team or something?

Is our B-Burg at the bar checkout questions part of that? Yeah, I think those are really fun. Yeah, we do like a company-wide meetings twice a week. And we come up with, y'all come up with really good checkout questions. They just randomly assign two people that usually they try to pick some people that don't work together very often. And so, yeah.

I have a really good one. I can't wait to be called next. Oh, that's good. It's actually my team. I guess I could ask to be chosen. Cheater. Hello, I'm Esther Perel, psychotherapist and host of the podcast, Where Should We Begin? Which delves into the multiple layers of relationships, mostly romantic.

But in this special series, I focus on our relationships with our colleagues, business partners and managers. Listen in as I talk to co-workers facing their own challenges with one another and get the real work done. Tune into Housework, a special series from Where Should We Begin, sponsored by Klaviyo. What software do you use at work? The answer to that question is probably more complicated than you want it to be. The average US company deploys more than 100 apps, and ideas about the work we do can be radically changed by the tools we use to do it. So what is enterprise software anyway? What is productivity software?

How will AI affect both? And how are these tools changing the way we use our computers to make stuff, communicate, and plan for the future. In this three-part special series, Decoder is surveying the IT landscape presented by AWS. Check it out wherever you get your podcasts. Okay, let's move to page 128. And we talk a lot about boundaries in your work already, but in this book, another beautifully designed page, I wanted to talk about Prentice Hemphill's definition of boundaries. They are amazing. They are amazing. I mean, yeah. So Prentice Hemphill writes, boundaries are the distance at which I can love you and me simultaneously. My goodness. It's so powerful.

Oof, yeah. I think people don't understand the relationship between boundaries and love. You know, I don't think people understand that I'm saying no to this or I'm saying no to this, or I'm saying yes to this, or I'm saying this is not okay and this is okay out of a deep need for self-love. And I'm choosing something to say and ask for something hard to be able to maintain a relationship with you. Yes.

That's why I think in the parenting research, I was just thinking about this because we just did that talk, parenting talk recently, that one of the surest ways to undermine connection with our children is to say no just because we can. Just to say you can't do this or no, or yes, you are going to do this because I have more power and authority than you. Not, you know, that's why Steve and I are like, we will say yes every time we can. And when we can't, we'll explain it. And if you need another explanation, we'll try to reframe it and explain it.

And then we're done, unless you really don't understand. But I think boundaries is ultimately very much what Prentice writes. It's a way that I can continue to love and respect myself and love and respect you. So if I say, you know what, happy, the holidays are coming,

really want you, can't wait to see you and the kids. A couple of things I'm going to have to ask. It's okay for it to be stressful. It's okay for things to get kind of hard sometimes. It's not okay to break into a huge fight in front of my kids and the family. It's not okay to drink too much. You know, those things are not okay. What I'm trying to say is I'm trying to find a way for us to be together.

I love that. Yep. You know, yeah, it's also like that parenting advice I got when Ellen was really little, and I don't remember who told it to me. I think it was a theologian. And she said, you know, those bridges, those rickety bridges with the wood, you know, just kind of the panels and then the rope sides and they swing over, you know, just thousand foot gorge below. You know, she said, parenting is like sending your child across that bridge. Parenting with no boundaries is like sending your child across that bridge with no handrails, you know? And we just know from the research that we've done with college age students, that one of the greatest sources of love and security and boundaries that they literally

will get competitive with one another if we do it in a group is tell me how strict your parents were. Tell me about the rules you had growing up, you they'll say, oh my God, my parents were so strict and I couldn't do this. Oh my God, you think that's bad. We couldn't do this. And then we don't even do those focus groups anymore because the kids who grew up without any boundaries go into such deep shame. And their translation was no one was watching or paying attention enough to set a boundary. You know, so I think we miss the relationship between boundaries and love. But Prentice does not. No, Prentice does not.

Prentice nailed it. I love, too, this is another great example in the book about how you circle back to previous books. Like in this one, you talk about the gifts. So many times Rising Strong is brought up. I think that's really cool. All right, moving along. I want to learn about what new information you came to with humiliation on page 148. Yeah. I saw this meme on Instagram that said, science is not the truth. Science is the pursuit of the truth.

When scientists change their mind, they weren't lying to you. They've learned something new. And that's how I feel about humiliation. For a long time, I think all of us that studied the self-conscious affects, shame, guilt, humiliation, and embarrassment, I think all of us that studied the self-conscious affects, shame, guilt, humiliation, and embarrassment, I think all of us kind of believed that, you know, we believed, and I think this is still

holds up, that the difference between, like, let's just do a primer real quick for everyone listening. So shame and guilt. Shame, I am bad. Guilt, I did something bad. Shame is a focus on self. Guilt is a focus on behavior. Shame is very highly correlated with addiction, depression, abuse, violence, aggression, guilt inversely. It's so helpful when we can separate

ourselves from our actions. So I'm not stupid for getting an F, but it was a really stupid decision to not study for that test, right? That's shame and guilt. We still talk about the primary difference between shame and humiliation being the construct of deserving. So if I'm a teacher and I shame a student and that student self-talk is, God, I didn't deserve that. That's the meanest, rotten, most terrible teacher. I didn't deserve it. We used to say all the time that humiliation is less dangerous than shame because as a caregiver, it's very likely that we'll hear about it because they're not internalizing it like they would shame. If they process that as shame, God, she called me stupid. I am stupid.

She's called me stupid. I am stupid. The problem is if we look on 147, this is based on the research. We define humiliation as the intensely painful feeling that we've been unjustly degraded, ridiculed, or put down, and that our identity has been demeaned or devalued. And it's similar to shame because we feel somehow flawed when we're in that emotion. But again, when we're humiliated, we don't believe we deserved it. And the new research, this is coming from Linda Hartling, who's the director of a global transdisciplinary group called Human Dignity and Humiliation Studies. They call themselves the nurturers of dignity. Hartley and her colleagues describe humiliation as unjustified mistreatment that violates one's dignity

and diminishes one's sense of self-worth as a human being. So a collection of studies has really challenged my thinking about how detrimental and dangerous humiliation is. So in 2003, Susan Harder and her colleagues issued a report that examined the media profiles of 10 prominent school shooters between 1996 and 1999. And they reported that in every case, the shooters described how they had been ridiculed, taunted, teased, harassed, and bullied by peers because of appearance or social or athletic behavior.

They were spurned by someone in whom they were romantically interested or put down in front of other students by a teacher maybe or a school administrator. And that all of these types of events led these kids to experience profound humiliation. That report prompted a series of studies by Jeff Ellison and Susan Harder that found links for peer rejection, humiliation, depression, and anger with those suicidal and homicidal ideation. It's crazy. Yeah. More important, perhaps, their research suggests that bullying alone does not lead to aggression.

Instead, individuals who are bullied become violent specifically when feelings of humiliation accompany the bullying. I just think this has tremendous implications for how we think about humiliation and how often humiliation is an attack against a social identity, ethnicity, race, sexual orientation, this makes humiliation dangerous. Yeah. And so I think we're getting a clear and clear sense of the relationship between humiliation and violence. Yeah, you write about it in the middle of page 149, the second paragraph.

You want to read it? This connection between humiliation and aggression slash violence explains much of what we're seeing today. Amplified by the reach of social media, dehumanizing and humiliating others are becoming increasingly normalized along with violence. Now, rather than humiliating someone in front of a small group of people, we have the power to eviscerate someone

in front of a global audience of strangers. Yeah. And I just think there's a level of brutality to humiliation that, again, because of social media, but also just, I don't think we've seen what we're seeing today. No, and it's trauma. I mean, the humiliation has to be trauma. Oh, it's such trauma.

It's so trauma. And also, it's confusing because humiliation has become blood sport. So we base a lot of entertainment on humiliation. You know, and- I think all the way down to even like cancel culture. Yeah. Like you make a mistake. Yeah. You can't even do anything about it because- Yeah. I think it just, all this goes back to maybe what the whole premise acknowledging the very vital, if not defining role that emotion plays in our lives.

Just so many things that I appreciate about Atlas is just the continuous learning that I feel like every time you come out with a book, I'm always holding my breath a little bit because I'm like, uh-oh, I wonder what it's going to say. But also just so full of excitement around the new learning that we get to take with us. And this book, too, I mean, I imagine that it was really fun for you because there's a lot of research in it. And I know you enjoy that. But just how beautiful it is and just the concepts that you have started talking about a long time ago and are bringing in new research and stuff to support that is really cool. I know you said it was life changing to write. It was life changing to read. And to give our, thank you for the gift of being able to really say how we feel and the ability to explain it in a way I think that we've been confusing ourselves for years. Yeah.

And I think it's also, I think, I mean, I appreciate your kind words and I just, there'd be no book without y'all. So let me just. As case studies or as sisters? Good call. Good point. No, as co-collaborators. I think no one writes a book, any kind of book, without a bunch of people helping and supporting and doing.

And no one writes this book without a shit ton of people. So yeah. And y'all are my people. Thank you. And we have such are my people. Thank you. Yeah. And we have such an amazing team. The team. Do such an amazing job.

Every single person, all 30 people that work for B-Berg have touched this book in some way. But guys, right turn to rapid fire. Oh my God. It's like, okay. So have you ever seen those TikToks of kids coming down the stairs 100 miles an hour,

either sliding like on their bellies with their hands in front like Superman or sliding backwards? Like this is the face that Ashley and Barrett would get at the top of the stairs when my parents would say, go on Christmas morning. Yeah, I'm scared. Okay. Do you want to do odds and I'll do evens? Okay, great. Fill in the blank for me.

Vulnerability is? Being brave with our lives and our hearts. You are called to be very brave, but your fear is real and you can feel it right in your throat. What's the very first thing you do? Pray. What is something people often get wrong about you? I don't know. What is something people often get wrong about you? I don't know. What is something people often get wrong about me? What do y'all think? I can only think of things like people will say on social media and stuff that hurt my feelings. And I'm

like, that's not true about me, but I don't want to like, that's not. Yeah. That's not people who even know you. Yeah. I went to the same place around social media comments that I've seen that I just want to be like. I'm not sure people know what a silly side you have. I'm not silly. Yep. Yes, you are totally silly. Or what great dance moves you have. Yeah.

Yeah. They underestimate my dance moves. That's what we'll do with that. I think that people, you know what I think people get wrong about me? People think I'm really, this is hard for me. Sometimes I disappoint people

who take from my books what they want to take from my books. And they kind of dehumanize me in the process and don't realize that, like, you know, just help me on my spiritual journey and shut up about Black Lives Matter or white supremacy or immigration policy. And so sometimes what people don't understand or what they get wrong about me is I'm a social worker.

That's right. So is Ashley, by the way. And that all my work is both micro and macro. Yeah. Yeah. And if we're not, people get that wrong. People think I'm like a self-help guru kind of person when, you know, I'm just not. Well, what's your love language?

Acts of service. Unload the dishwasher, damn it. Put gas in my car. What's your love language? Same. Me too. I mean, you take my car, get gas, and wash it for me. But hold on to you shaking your head like that.

Wait, we're in rapid fire. Keep going. I can just tell you that I have thoughts about that, but go ahead. That's for another podcast. What's the last TV show you binged and loved? Like, the cool answer or like the honest answer the honest answer y'all know

I watch a lot of British mystery shows Shetland Shetland favorite movie they couldn't be more different but it's probably a tie for the color purple and the sound of music a concert that you'll never forget you too oh yeah that's neat one of many you two concerts, yeah. Favorite meal?

Golly. It's like that movie where they die and they go to heaven, they can eat whatever they want and not feel like a little sick. 100%. Like I would not feel sick or gross. Chicken fried steak, mashed potatoes with butter,

cream gravy, corn on the cob, iced tea, lemon meringue pie. Nailed it iced tea, lemon meringue pie. Nailed it. Oh, lemon meringue pie. Is that a nod to our friends in three pints? Okay, keep going.

Bonjour. Je m'appelle Amon Gamache. Is it my turn? It is. What's on your nightstand? A heating pad. A pickleball heating pad. Lip gloss. Not lip gloss not lip gloss but you know like lip balm um moisturizer a lamp a cord for my watch a cord for my phone and like 64 books

well speaking of your bedroom. Oh God. Jesus. That was me. Do you let Lucy sleep in bed with you when Steve's out of town? They're so excited to ask me this. No, I do not. Are you sure? I'm a hundred percent.

Lucy could talk. If Lucy could talk, she'd say, hell no, she doesn't. I sleep in a crate on the floor next to the bed. Okay. Here's your next question. Why do you think that you and Chaz always lose to me and Ashley at Euchre? That's a bullshit question. I'll tell you why Chaz and I always lose and you, Gertie, y'all. And first of all, we don't always lose. Yeah. But it's Chaz. No. It is.

It is. And I'll tell you why. He cannot go more than two hands without bidding. Yeah. And it doesn't matter if he's got jack shit

in his hand. It's true. He'll bid on a nine and a queen. And go alone. And he'll bid on a nine and a queen. And go alone. And he'll go alone. A snapshot of an ordinary moment in your life that gives you true joy. Sitting on the couch or on the bed when I'm close enough to Steve, Ellen, and Charlie that I can

smell their hair. Aww. Yeah. Tell me one thing you're deeply grateful for right now. My sisters. Aww. Okay. Go ahead. Five songs. Oh, no. You want to read them? Okay.

If I Needed You by Townsend Van Z of Hands Ant Amazing Grace by Willie Nelson before the last teardrop falls Freddie Fender how many dimes did I put in the jukebox at pig stand on Broadway in San Antonio with Meemaw

Angel from Montgomery by Bonnie Raitt and John Prine when they sing it as a duet. Oh, yeah. So good. So good. Oh, my God. There's flies in the kitchen.

Let It Be by Carol Woods and Timothy Mitchum. Nice. Yeah. So in one sentence, tell us what these five songs say about you, Brene Brown, author of Atlas of the Heart. I think it would say she believes in God and she believes in love. songs say about you, Brene Brown, author of Atlas of the Heart? I think it would say she believes in God and she believes in love. Oh, I love that. Me too.

Damn, so I have to say, like, it's not as easy as it looks being on this side of the microphone. I think I nailed it. That's so funny. Thank you all so much for spending so much time and energy and effort helping me love on Atlas a little bit as we put it out into the world. You all know it's a scary thing.

It is. It's such a great book. It's a gift. I can't read it with Amaya because she would read it really fast, and I like to read everything like three or four times. And she's like, turn the page. No, no, no, I'm still reading. It's so good.

I can read it over and over. Thank you. Oh, you probably will. I know, yeah. All right. Thanks, y'all. Thanks, y'all. Well, that was fun.

That was so fun. I just wish we could ask all the rapid fires to everybody that comes on i know and i like that they're the same questions but i also think it'd be fun to just like throw in a couple but i don't want anyone to throw in a couple on me yeah let's do it on them exactly get ready again to join us next week where bernie Ashley and I answer your questions that you submit. Guys, we have received so many questions that we just went out with the email blast last week. Today's Monday, so I'm trying to figure out when we sent it out. It was on Friday. And we got like 700 questions in the first two hours. So we're really excited to dig in.

Yeah. You can find Atlas of the Heart, Mapping Meaningful Connection in the Language of Human Experience wherever you like to buy books. And we will put a link on our episode page. You can find Brene online on Instagram, Twitter, Facebook, and LinkedIn at Brene Brown. We'll also put the links up on the episode page so y'all can find them there.

Remember every episode of Unlocking Us and Dare to Lead have episode pages on brennabrown.com where we have resources, downloads, and transcripts. You can sign up for our newsletter there, too. We're so grateful that you're here with us. And it was such a fun experience to turn the tables on Brené and actually interview her. We'll see you guys next week. Thanks, friends.

Stay awkward, brave and kind. Unlocking Us is produced by Brene Brown Education and Research Group. The music is by Keri Rodriguez and Gina Chavez. Get new episodes as soon as they're published by following Unlocking Us on your favorite podcast app. We are part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. Discover more award-winning shows at podcast.voxmedia.com. So you've arrived. You head to the brasserie, then the terrace. Cocktail?

Don't mind if I do. You raise your glass to another guest because you both know the holiday's just beginning. And you're only in Terminal 3. Welcome to Virgin Atlantic's unique upper-class clubhouse experience, where you'll feel like you've arrived before you've taken off. Virgin Atlantic, see the world differently. Support for this show is brought to you by Nissan Kicks. It's never too late to try new things, and it's never too late to reinvent yourself. The all-new reimagined Nissan Kicks is the city-sized crossover vehicle that's been completely revamped for urban adventure.

From the design and styling to the performance, all the way to features like the Bose Personal Plus sound system, you can get closer to everything you love about city life in the all-new reimagined Nissan Kicks. Learn more at www.nissanusa.com

slash 2025 dash kicks. Available feature. Bose is a registered trademark of the Bose Corporation.