Unlocking Us with Brené Brown - Brené, Ashley, and Barrett on Atlas of the Heart: A Sisters Book Club, Part 3 of 3

Episode Date: December 15, 2021

We asked for your Atlas of the Heart questions and, man, did you deliver. More than 1,500 questions poured in. So, in this final episode of our Sisters Book Club, Ashley, Barrett, and I answer as many questions as we can, tackling how emotional literacy affects self-awareness, how family patterns affect emotions, and how emotionally intense moments affect our decision-making. We also discuss the powerful connections between art and emotions, as well as how parents can bring this work to their teenagers. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hi, everyone. I'm Brene Brown. I'm Barrett Guillen. I'm Ashley Ruiz. And this is Unlocking Us. This is part three of our three-part sister series book club on Atlas of the Heart. Can you believe it? Oh, my gosh. It's been so fun. Yeah, so fun.

What's been your favorite part so far, Ash? The rapid fire questions on you. I was going to say the same thing. That's what your favorite part has been too yeah i think it's been really fun but i'm actually really excited today to dig into other people's questions okay so in the first two episodes of our sister series ashley and barrett turned the tables on me and interviewed me about the new book and y'all killed it by the way thank you it was so fun but I have to tell you, it's harder being on that side of the microphone

than it looks. So damn, you make it look easy. Yeah, you do. And somebody somewhere put a comment that said, sister's leading the podcast, Brene's still the boss. I think I said that. You totally did.

I think I said that in the podcast. I'm like, that's, y'all are leading it, but just understand that I'm still the boss. She's like, I'm nervous. I don't know why I'm nervous though, because I'll just said that. You totally did. I think I said that in the podcast. I'm like, y'all are leading it, but just understand that I'm still the boss. She's like, I'm nervous. I don't know why I'm nervous though, because I'll just say no. I'm still the boss. Enneagram.

Enneagrams, number one, represent still the boss. Support for this show comes from Macy's. Fall is in full swing, and it's the perfect time to refresh your home and wardrobe for the sweater weather with new finds from Macy's. From October 9th to October 16th, get amazing deals on shoes and boots on sale at 30 to 40 percent off. And you can shop new styles during the Macy's Fab Fall Sale from October 9th to October 14th. Shop oversized knits, warm jackets, and trendy charm necklaces and get 25% to 60% off on top brands when you do. Plus, get great deals on cozy home accessories from October 18th to October 27th. Shop in-store or online at macys.com.

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stuff, communicate, and plan for the future? In this three-part special series, Decoder is surveying the IT landscape presented by AWS. Check it out wherever you get your podcasts. Okay. So we have some not live callers, but we have people who called in questions for this episode. Yes, totally. Yeah, those are good questions. I think we just jump in. What do y'all think? Well, let's give a big shout out to Rhonda, who's our Senior Director of Research, who just vetted all of the questions and pulled some together for us.

We literally got in 1,500 questions. No. Yes. Oh my God, this is like Frasier Crane level. Yes. Frasier Crane. You got a caller? Hello, caller. I'llasier Crane level. Yes. Frasier Crane. You got a caller? Hello, caller.

I'll sit outside your window and do that. Oh yeah, the producer. Yeah, yeah. Rhonda, thank you so much. You kicked ass per usual. Yes. All right. You want to start with the first one?

It's like, let's see. Dan calling from Kirksville, Missouri. All right. Let's listen to Dan's question. Hi, this is Dan calling from Kirksville, Missouri. All right, let's listen to Dan's question. Hi, this is Dan calling from Kirksville, Missouri. What inspired this book? What sets this book apart from others you have written? God, was there not an easier one to start with?

Hit the ground running, like they say. Yeah, I guess so. The inspiration for the book was probably more, would y'all agree that every time I write a book or we develop a curriculum for either The Daring Way or Dare to Lead, there is like an emotional literacy component? Oh, yes. Totally. Yeah. So I think I've always been thinking about it. I've always been concerned about it.

I go back to the quote that's in the book from Ludwig Wittgenstein, the limits of my language are the limits of my world. And I think, I don't know, after kind of looking at the 7,000 plus respondents that could only identify three, and then spending all this time in organizations working with leaders, I think talking to facilitators around the world who are working with leaders, I think talking to facilitators around the world who are running the curriculum, I just, the lack of self-awareness in folks is not overcomable without language and the study of emotion. It's just, we are not rational, cognitive Vulcans. We are emotional beings and people are trying so desperately to become more self-aware without the lexicon and language to do it. And so, I don't know, it was weird. It feels like, I don't know if I'm going to say this the right way,

it feels like something completely different than I've ever done. And also the culmination of all my work. Maybe you get to the end of, you know, the gifts of imperfection, daring greatly, rising strong, braving the wilderness, dare to lead. And then you're like, shit, we can do a lot of important work, but we still don't have the language. Yeah. Yeah. Totally. I mean, y'all are both former teachers. Like, do you ever get to the point where you're just like in a classroom?

Like, oh my God, I'm trying to teach these things and they don't have any of the fundamentals. Totally. But I'll also say with Atlas, it's almost like one of those things, like you don't know what you don't know. It's like, I didn't know how off I was even around asking for help for myself

because I was saying how I was feeling wrong. Like- I know too. Yeah, so I can totally see that playing out in a classroom where they didn't have the fundamental language, but like, I didn't even know I was getting it so wrong. And it wasn't really wrong,

but one of the things I've always loved about implementing your work as a facilitator is just giving language around feelings that we have in our body or we know that are familiar and being able to put language around it. Yeah. I think language has always been a huge part of the work. And so I think just stepping aside and taking a breath and saying, this is going to be a book devoted to language. Yeah. Just felt like, weirdly, the next right thing. Yeah. I agree. I love it. All right. Thank you, Dan from Kirksville for your question. Okay. And next we're going to go over to Kimberly from Atlanta. This one is so good. Okay. Let's take a listen. Hi, Renee and Ashley and Barrett. This is Kimberly in Atlanta. So no surprise, the book is awesome.

I am still reading it now. But I have to admit that this particular physical book is causing me some emotional turmoil. I have to write in your books while I'm reading. And this book, this book is way, way too nice to write in. I cannot do it. I have to know, was this intentional? Is this part, is this supposed to be part of my experience of this book? Is this a design feature meant to trigger a piece of my own work?

What am I supposed to learn? Because I cannot finish this damn book until I can resolve this. Thanks. Love you guys. Oh, because I can't finish the damn book until I resolve this. Thanks. Love you. Thank you, Kimberly. I mean, okay. You got to write in this book. You got to really write all over this book and you've got to write like courageous writing, like with a Sharpie works best in this book. I mean, you can do a ballpoint pen too. I don't know if a pencil works on these kind of slick magazine pages as well. Try it, Ashley. Is there a pencil somewhere in here? You should do the heart exercise with them that we do in

trainings. Oh yeah. I'm just going to give you the exercise because a lot of people when they're listening or not, they're driving or walking, they don't have their book. Oh no, a ballpoint pen works great. Here's your assignment, everyone. I want you to take your copy of Atlas. I want you to put it in front of you and close your eyes. And then I want you to randomly pick a page, just any page, you can't look. And then on that page, I want you to get a black Sharpie and draw a huge heart. Like when we do this, when we're facilitating the curriculum, we have these really beautiful workbooks that are companions to each of the books. And that's what we teach and facilitate. And they're like, oh, look at the workbooks. They've got beautiful like pictures and quotes. They answer the questions on sticky notes.

And then they stick the sticky note on the page or they just do it like a whole running thing on a tablet next to them. Yeah. Yeah. And I'm like, no, no, we're not doing this because we're going to like, we're going to get over the perfectionism. So I do what we just did.

Grab your book, close your eyes, pick a random page. Then I say, grab a marker and write a big heart. And people just are like, I can't do it. I'm not, I'm not going to do it. I'd rather fail. I'd rather fail this program. I'm like, I can't do it. I'm not going to do it. I'd rather fail this program. I'm like, okay, first of all, there's no grades on the program, on the training. So it is meant to write in and you need to write in it and underline things and cross things out. And it can still be a beautiful, I mean, it's beautiful enough to be a coffee table book. I

mean, I have it on our coffee table at home, but it can be beautiful. The wrapper can be beautiful, but the inside needs to be messy, just like us. Can I just tell y'all a little secret? Yeah. Sometimes at the trainings, I like draw my heart and I'm like, looking around, I got a lot of these back in the office. Well, I'll tell you a secret about Barrett, too. I like this. When she saw my Atlas book, I have like sticky notes and stickers all over it.

I mean, like I was really devouring the book. And she's like, oh, no, I'm not putting any stickers in my book. Damn rude. There you go. Because she was probably like, I don't have a lot of these at the office. You got to write an atlas. And I love your question. You got to just go for it. Now you can finish the damn book.

Now you can finish the damn book. Okay. The next caller did not leave her name, but let's listen. Hello. First of all, I love the sister series shows. They're my favorite. I'm calling because Brene had suggested that it would be a great book to work through as a family. And I love to do that.

But I've got a sophomore and a senior in high school. The senior's got one foot out the door already. So how would I get and how would I entice them to work this book with me? Sort of paying them, I'm not quite sure how that would work. So I'm hoping Brene has some amazing, magical answer to this. Thank you. Yes. Yes. Yeah, that answer to this. Thank you. Yes. Yes. Yeah. I'll pay you a dollar in emotion. $87. Look, I remember one time when Ellen was in middle school and I wanted to talk to her about

something and I walked into her room and stood at the edge of her bed, kind of where my knees were hitting the top of her bed and looked at her and she just started crying. And I was into her room and stood at the edge of her bed, kind of where my knees were hitting the top of her bed and looked at her. And she just started crying. And I was like, what's wrong? And she goes, what is it? Why are you standing there looking at me like that? I think the best way to do it is never to look them directly in the eye. You know, like it's driving, walking, playing pickleball, playing four square.

We're big ball and racket people. But playing ping pong, I talk to Charlie, my 16 year old son all the time playing ping pong. I think with this, I don't know that it would work for my kids to say, okay, you know, 830 Atlas of the heart lesson, we're going to tackle despair and anguish, even if we're going to tackle joy and wonder. I think it's woven into organically woven into relevant moments. Yeah. Like. TV, movies. TV, movies. Great examples.

Yeah. Or sitting at family dinner and say, God, I loved being at your recital today. I realized that it's such a moment of awe for me to sit in the audience. And I was like, is that what it is? And I was thinking about this book I'm reading and awe is just kind of where you're not curious about it. You don't want to learn about it. You just want to step back and let it unfold and take it all in.

And I feel a sense of awe, you know, watching you perform or, you know, whatever it is. Yeah. I also love the idea of films, TV shows on Netflix that we're watching or HBO Max, or we're watching a sporting event. We watch a lot of sporting events. And I think those are frustration, disappointment. The player looks resigned. And I would never use that word before, but I just read that resigned is like doing this or that. So I think weaving it in where it is relevant and organic. I mean, imagine having the conversation with your kids, because, you know, I have a teenager, around expectations going into the holidays. Like, I know that you're going to want to go out every single night. And so we're going to set that straight now. Like at least four nights, we're going to be with family. Here's what we're doing. You know what I mean? Like to be able to, as the

adult or the parent read through that section around expectations, and then to be able to have that conversation with your kids heading into some time off from work and school and families together. That's so smart, Ashley. Yeah. I love that. I'll tell you the other thing, because you have Amaya, my niece, Ashley's daughter, is getting ready to graduate in the spring. And I wish I would have done a better job reality checking expectations of first year in college. I'll say more. Yeah, I could learn from this. The transition's rough for the kids. I mean, obviously we're all geared up for heartbreak and that does happen, but, and it's bittersweet because there's joy

and we're excited for them. But I think the vast majority of kids that I know of through friends experience some pretty significant homesickness, some pretty hard roommate issues, an adjustment period. And they immediately thought, I'm not ready for this.

I'm not good enough to be here. I'm not mature enough to be here. I'm not independent enough to be here. As opposed to setting the expectation that this is a big transition. And even when we do new things that we're just dying to do and are so excited about,

there can still be grief and weirdness and loss and, you know, it's an FFT for sure, total fucking first time. And so really setting those expectations. The other thing is, it's like when kids hit kindergarten, you know, married to a pediatrician, as y'all both know, but as listeners may or may not know, kindergarten, brand new germ pool, college dorms, brand new germ pool. Kids get sick a lot. You know, everyone I know's kid got either mono or strep throat or something their first semester. So they're sick, they're alone from home. You know, it's, we don't need to be negative about it, but we can normalize realistic expectations about this is going to be fun and a great adventure, but there'll be tough moments too. And the tough moments don't mean that you don't belong there. The tough moments mean it

is a new adventure. That's really good. I feel like we could do a whole podcast on expectations. Yeah. Oh, for sure. Expectations, disappointment. Yeah. I'll say it again. Let's listen to the next one. Who's our next one, Ash? Jen from Denver. Okay. Hi, Ashley Barrett and Brene. This is Jen, and I'm calling in from Denver, Colorado. My sisters and I spent last summer doing almost exactly what Brene described on the first pages of the introduction in Atlas. At one point during a really heated conversation with my sister, I sort of yelled at her, I know I'm being a fucking jerk right now. I can't access my communication skills.

Yeah, so although I didn't exactly succeed at not taking my rage out on her, I'm grateful for some growth because earlier in life, I wouldn't have even recognized I was being a jerk. So my question for you is in three parts. What do you recommend in these moments when everything we've learned goes out the window? Also, does this type of reverting to early family patterns ever go away completely? And lastly, what has helped you three make different choices when you're in very intense moments? Thank you so much. That's a good one. Surely resonates over here with me.

You know, for me, I think, let's break this down because she's got three. So one of them was, what do you recommend in these moments when everything we've learned goes out the window? I find it personally helpful to say, hey, everything I've learned is going out the window right now. Just to name what it is. Like, you know, like, hey, look, Ashley, I'm so frustrated right now. I mean, we're in that moment in real life right now, right? Yes, totally. Yeah, I mean, like five minutes before we started this podcast, right?

So everything I know is going out the window. I'm freaking 16 right now. I'm pissed off and I just want a cigarette and drive my pickup truck and get the hell out of here. And what's really hard too in moments like that is I want to be like, I'll be the DJ, let's go. You know, I want to go too. And that's helpful though.

Cause it was acted out. Like, so, cause we are in a moment right now where we are, the emotions I'm feeling right now are, I'm frustrated. I'm resentful and I'm angry. What are you feeling right now about stuff going on? Um, and I'm angry. What are you feeling right now about stuff going on? Frustrated, confused,

and angry. Bear it. Definitely resentment. Also like, where the fuck is the expert? That's what I want to know. That would be us no yeah nope yeah okay what else and I think just like grief sadness I think yeah I'm gonna add grief and sadness to mine I'm not okay so watch what

we're doing right now so we're talking about how we feel so I'm like you know what fuck this I'm not. Okay, so watch what we're doing right now. So we're talking about how we feel. So I'm like, you know what? Fuck this, I'm not helping today. I'm gonna like- I just literally took my watch off and put my phone down and said, I don't know what you're talking about. I didn't get a text.

I was like, did you get that text? And she's like, literally, what text? Yeah. Yeah, and I went into like, come on, stay in the moment. Let's dance. Keep dancing. Keep dancing. Yeah. So I think we give ourselves permission to be really messy and human to the line where we take it out on each other, like where we blame each other. But I think as long as we can. So I'm like, you know what?

Fuck this, I'm getting in the truck. I'm leaving. And if you're like, I'm going with you, I'm the DJ. Oh, Ty, you tuckered a little what? Yeah. One fist, and you tuckered. Next fist, who is it? Waylon Jennings?

I don't know who it is. But if Ashley, if I said that I'm leaving, I'm getting in the truck, I'm 16, I'm out. I'm getting my marble lights and my cowboy hat and my belt that says Brene. Sissy, I'll see you later. Okay, bud. And if Ashley goes, oh no, I'm going with you. I'll be the DJ. I'm like, okay, what are you going to play? What do we listen to first?

Well, I could tell you do some Tanya Tucker. I could too. Especially if you're bringing the Marlboro Lights. Goodbye. Y'all have a nice drive on the stay back. You could sit in the back of the truck. You could sit in the back of the truck. By myself?

No. So this is what we do. So what you're seeing is we really own it. Yeah. And we're really good when we need to, to take a time out and just say, I need five minutes. I'll be back.

And if we have to say, you know what? Fucking not me today. Oh yeah. We can do that too. So to say, you know what? Fucking not me today. Oh yeah. We can do that too. So let me just say for the record, not me today. Not it. Not it. Nose goes. Vera's the last one to put her finger on. I still don't know what y'all are talking about. Well, when you read that text, you'll know it's your turn. Yeah. She asks, is there's a type of reverting to early family patterns ever go away completely? I don't know.

I'm not seeing it happen yet. I don't think it does, but I think it moves from it's happening without awareness and it's driving behavior that's outside of my values to it's happening with some awareness and driving behavior outside of my values, to it's happening with some awareness and driving behavior outside of my values, to it's happening fully in my awareness and I'm choosing not to let it drive behaviors outside my values. Yeah. Yeah. That's a good way to put it. Yeah. And so I think that shifts, but I don't think the reversion ever goes away. And it's like, God, it gives you so much power to understand what's happening. Yeah. And so I think that shifts, but I don't think the reversion ever goes away. And it's like, God, it gives you so much power to understand what's happening. Yeah. It really does. And let me tell you something, the other thing, just let me just get a drum roll.

Normalize, normalize, normalize. Yeah. If we're talking about something that's hard going on right now and Ashley goes, I cannot believe you're resentful and hateful. What kind of daughter are you? That would never happen. But we all do experience these things really different sometimes. Totally. But we have done a great job at normalizing it.

Yeah, just normalizing. Like this is hard AF. Yep. Totally. And sometimes we don't get it right. And sometimes we have to circle back and just clean it up. And like, damn, I was not proud of how I showed up or you didn't deserve that.

That was my own shit. We're not afraid to apologize to each other. Yeah, because I can get really, when I get super overwhelmed, like beyond belief, I'm like, fine, I'll just handle it myself. I go into my older sister, protector of everybody, let me handle it. And then I go somewhere and cry.

I go into F it mode. What do you do? What? Did you text me? And there you have it. About a year ago, two twin brothers in Wisconsin discovered, kind of by accident, that mini golf might be the perfect spectator sport for the TikTok era. Meanwhile, a YouTuber in Brooklyn found himself less interested in tech YouTube

and more interested in making coffee. This month on The Verge Cast, we're telling stories about these people who tried to find new ways to make content, new ways to build businesses around that content, and new ways to make content about those businesses. Our series is called How to Make It in the Future, and it's all this month on The Verge Cast, wherever you get podcasts. Hello, I'm Esther Perel, psychotherapist and host of the podcast Where Should We Begin, which delves into the multiple layers of relationships, mostly romantic. But in this special series, I focus on our relationships with our colleagues, business partners and managers.

Listen in as I talk to co-workers facing their own challenges with one another and get the real work done. Tune into How's Work, a special series from Where Should We Begin, sponsored by Klaviyo. Okay, let's listen to the next question. This is from, who's this from, Bear? This one's from Kristen. Okay. Hi, this is Kristen. And my question is, so often when someone, you know, usually my therapist, asks me how I'm feeling, I don't know.

You know, I don't even know what to say. Like, literally, right now, I don't know what emotion I'm feeling. Is that an emotion? Is that just feeling fine? Like, I feel like there is a part of my brain that's missing that can connect the dots on the way I feel physically or mentally to an emotion. So I'm wondering, how can I practice this? You know, is this about checking in with myself more often? I sometimes joke and say that I don't have any feelings, but I think that, you know, they're there.

They're just buried really deep behind a really tall fence with like barbed wire and guard dogs. And I just don't know how to actually access them or get to them. Thanks. Yeah. Yeah. What an insightful question. Yeah.

You don't need us. Like, yes, that would be my response to this. Like, yes, we bury our feelings really deep behind a tall fence with barbed wire and guard dogs, and we don't access them. And we're taught to do that from the time we were born until the time we realized that our cognition and our behaviors are inextricably connected to our emotions. And we try to control behaviors and thinking without addressing emotion. And it's not possible because the three are connected and emotion is in control. Emotion is driving. And so when someone asks you how you're feeling or how I'm feeling, my therapist just, I mean, I had therapy this morning, not unrelated to everything else that's going on, right? I literally had to call Barrett

and say, push back my podcast 15 minutes if you can. I was on somebody else's podcast today because therapy had to go long. I got a lot of shit. Man, mine never lets me go on. We're like, okay, well, time to wrap. Shall we set up our next call? Yeah, I know. Because I think normally we go 90 minutes. And today I only, I didn't tell her that in advance. So she were like in the middle and I was like, you know what? I may have to wrap up. She goes, should we talk about that?

And I was like, no, like for reals. But I think when she asked me, how are you feeling? And I said, and look, look, I just wrote this book. I just wrote this book. I just wrote this book. 87 emotions I have to choose from. And I said, I have no idea. Do as I say, not as I do. No, but it's like, I don't know.

I don't know. And she goes, I think that's a really great answer. Yeah. And I think it's not a bad answer, a good answer, a right answer, a wrong answer. You don't know. Could it be because there's so many emotions right now? And I was like, yes, I'm just, yeah, I don't know. And so I think not knowing how we feel or what it means is okay as long as we acknowledge I am feeling a lot. It's not

that there is a lack of emotion. It's there's a lack of clarity about the emotion. Yeah. Yeah. Damn. And I did go through the book actually. Did you land anywhere? Yeah. I didn't even say about it when we did that check-in right now what does that mean you're the therapist Ashley I'm not right now okay you know what I said to her I feel a little despair yeah like tomorrow will be just like today like I don't see an end to something yeah and I think with some kind of like some of this health stuff that we're looking at, there

is not a clear path. Like we have to change what we're doing because there's not a trajectory that's favorable. You know? And so I feel despair. Yeah. Yeah. A little bit. Like tomorrow will be just like today.

And I may not have the bandwidth for it. Yeah. It's like, I just want to throw in a joke. Like, thank God Barrett's taking over. And I'm just like, I just have to keep giving myself permission to not be the expert. I don't know.

No one just like came to me last night and blessed me to be the expert. I don't know. What do you think that you would have if you had an expert with you? Yeah, I'm so curious. Some certainty motherfuckers. What do you think?

Woo-hoo. Woo. And, oh, yeah. So that's- Well, earlier, B'nai was doing the number one dance. So if you want to jump into the number six dance. That's great. Enneagram number six.

I don't do a six dance. No? No. She scares my heart herself I can only say that Because I'm a six too Oh my god We're going to be a meme here

Okay we should go to the next question Okay yeah From Phil Phil take it away Phil in Raleigh, North Carolina Hi this is Phil from Raleigh, North Carolina Please talk about the connection between art and emotions. Why can a song bring me to tears? Why can a painting make me feel safe and calm?

Why can a poem make me forget my problems? Thank you. Yeah, this is a good one. I love this question. You know what? I wish I had, I forget what book it's in, but it's an Oliver Sacks. So the neuroscientist Oliver Sacks has a great quote about art piercing the heart directly, needing no mediators or mitigators, that art pierces the heart directly. And I think that's right. I think that, you know, it's like, for example, we take on anguish in the book. Well, it doesn't look like social scientists in our literature review get close to anguish. But then there's that portrait entitled Anguish

that hangs in Melbourne in Australia that just takes your breath away. I mean, I really actually debated putting it in the book. And then there's those statues from- Dark Elegy. Dark Elegy, yeah. And you can barely look at them. Yeah, yes.

Because in a split second without literature review and data and research, you know exactly what anguish is. Yes. And I do believe, I and research, you know exactly what anguish is. Yes. And I do believe, I mean, and you know what? I love this question, Phil, poems, pierce the heart directly, is empirical evidence that we are emotional beings. Mm-hmm. And even when it's something cognitive or highly logical, that we're like, wow, like an incredibly difficult math proof that's solved. And you're like, whoa, you're not reacting cognitively to it. You're responding with wonder and awe. We're emotional beings and art is an emotional language.

I was just thinking about when you were saying that, and it's a question I have. So can we go into empathy? Like I'm thinking about like a really sad love song and we get teary, is that because we can go into the place of like understanding what that grief is or that loss or? Yeah. I don't know where the line is between like resonance and empathy when it's something, not another human being. Yeah. But I do think it does stir empathy. I think, you know, it's interesting because there are two types of empathy, cognitive and effective. And the best combination for meaningful connection is compassion, which is kind of this belief system about being other

focused and with others and wanting to take action. And then cognitive empathy, understanding cognitively what someone else is experiencing, having access to the lexicon, the vocabulary. What we know drives burnout. This is why it just pisses me off when people say, empathy is not good. It's like, I think it's very clickbaity because people are like, ooh, I want something that everyone thinks is good to actually be bad. But it's the one that drives actual burnout, compassion fatigue is not cognitive empathy, it's affective empathy. It's feeling what someone else is feeling. So if I see you struggling and I come to you with compassion, I don't see you as the wounded and I'm the healer. I see you as an equal and part of the human experience

like I am and I see you and I know they're but for the grace and I want to be with you and I want to help in some way. That's compassion. Cognitive empathy is tell me your story, tell me what's going on. I listen, I'm like, oh, I recognize that. It sounds like grief. That's cognitive empathy.

Affective empathy is in order to try to be with you, I'm going to feel grief too. Rather than tapping something within me that knows what grief is and connecting to it, oh yeah, I know that grief. I actually feel it with you. And that's what drives burnout and that's what drives compassion fatigue. I think the thing about art that it could do is it could do a powerful combination. I don't think there's compassion because we're not wanting to help a song or a songwriter or performer because we don't know if that's real or whatever. But I think art might grab both of cognitive empathy, I know what he or she or they're singing about

and affective empathy. And I feel it right now during this song. Yeah. You know what I mean? But it's safe because I'm not feeling it in a way where I'm going to get sucked dry by someone because it's not a person, it's a poem or it's a movie. Yeah.

Yeah. I just keep thinking about storytelling and like the storytelling of the art. Yeah. That's storytelling. Yeah. Yeah. What is a song that if you hear, what's a song that can almost always bring you to tears? I think I know what you're going to say. What do you think I'm going to say? He Stopped Loving Her Today. He stopped loving her today. Yes. I just can't, I can't even listen to that song without crying. We had the same conversation driving to Galveston once when you were giving a talk down there. And for some reason, one song that always gets me, which is funny because we're going back old

school country, both of us, Rose Colored Glasses gets me every time. Wow. It's a good song. It is a good song. It is a good song. You? My immediate gut was Wind Beneath My Wings because it makes me think of beaches. And it was probably the most emotional movie I'd ever... The first experience of a movie where I was super... I came out of my room really pissed off.

How could y'all let me watch this? But you were hysterical. I was hysterical. Hysterical. That's the way I've been killed. That's my number six. That's when it all started. Okay. I think this is our last question, guys. Okay, let's do it. Greg from Australia. I've been an educator. How do you think Atlas of the Heart may benefit my teenage students

and the wider community? I'm Greg from Australia, Perth, Western Australia. Thanks, bye. I love this question. Yeah. I think Atlas of the Heart is absolutely a book

that teenagers and high schoolers can read. And I think we need to try to make one of our goals, and we're going to work on it after the new year, is to try to make the framework for meaningful connection more user-friendly and more kind of, I don't know, tactical and actionable. And I think that also is going to be very helpful. But look, I think someone, I did a podcast earlier today, and the host, she was like freaking amazing. She said, I wish you could just give us a short cheat sheet of the 87 emotions. And I'm not going to do that because that's where things go wrong.

These are nuanced. And you need to learn shame at the same time you learn the other self-conscious affects guilt, humiliation, and embarrassment. You need to understand them comparatively. You know, you need to understand joy, happiness, wonder, awe kind of together, like, and they're nuanced. You need to understand jealousy and envy together. You need to understand one reason why we don't use the word envy correctly normally is because probably one, it's one of the great deadly sins. But secondly, there's two kinds of envy. There's kind of a benign envy, like I want what you have and I'm so glad you have it too. But there's a malicious envy where I want what you have and you shouldn't have had it. You

shouldn't have received it. And so it's like high schoolers will get this. Oh, for sure. Yeah. I mean, because high schoolers, I mean, like, let me just put everybody listening on like DEF CON one or whatever the most important one is. I never know what's one or five, but high school is really, it starts in middle school, but high school is when we are taught that our emotions don't matter and that we need to be rational, logic human beings. And they say things like

drama queen, and he's so hysterical and so emo, and it's all bullshit. I hate when people use the word drama like that. Like unless you're talking about the theater or a film, don't use it. Because maybe you think your child's being overly dramatic because they got a bad locker placement and all their friends are down the hall. But what your child is feeling is an absolute threat to belonging, which is essential for like being alive. And when we dismiss it, we're dismissing the wrong thing because our, you know, perspective is a function of experience. They think the end of the world is a bad locker assignment because they don't have perspective

because they don't have experience, you know? And we as parents are like, Jesus Christ, really? This is like the second hour we're listening about the drama, quote unquote, about the locker and I'm planning an intervention for a sibling. I haven't got my pap smear result back and they're worried about that. I'm in a fight with my partner, like I've got sick parent, but that's not their world. That's your world. And so I think what a beautiful time to introduce this book and to reaffirm for them that all this whirl of emotion that you have between 14 and 24 that you're told is a liability is beautiful and important. And the best way to manage it

and regulate it and not be taken down by it is to name it and understand it. Yeah. That's a tirade. Was that a tirade? No, that's a mic drop. Like we should just wrap up. And done.

Thank you. Okay. So when does this go out? Next week? Yeah, this is going to go out next week. I think it's the 15th of December. Should we do a fast celebration about Atlas? Yes.

Atlas of the Heart debuted as number one on the New York Times. That's due to y'all. Y'all are just kick-ass. Thank you. Yeah, and so we are, this is the last in the sister series for Atlas. We may do some, if you have ideas about other stuff you'd like to see, you know, drop them in

social somewhere. Cause we always want to know what you want. You can find Atlas of the Heart wherever you like to buy books. We'll put a link to it on our episode page. We are taking a few weeks off for the holiday and we'll be back in the middle of January. I've got to tell you that, have you ever known me to take four weeks off in a row? Nope. It's exciting. Maybe ever. I don't think I ever have in my life, maybe.

I mean, I got my first job at 13. I just don't know that I have ever done it. I'm excited. I've got 7,000 projects, but I'm really just going to play pickleball and watch a shit ton of British mysteries. Maybe we could play some euchre. Oh, and play some euchre.

Oh, yeah. That would be so fun. If you're listening. Get ready to go down. Yeah. Yeah. I was going to say. This is what we do.

Like, this is just horrible. Ashley's sniffing because we're like, if someone's getting ready to get like, what do you call it? Lose. Get euchre'd. Get euchre'd. Get set. Then everyone's like, if someone's getting ready to get like, what do you call it? Get yukored, get set. Then everyone's like, smell some yukored.

It's just so rude, but so fun. And I think we talked about it last time on the podcast, but Chaz is like, he can't stand it. He can't stand to just sit back and wait for good cards. So just be like, yeah, I'm going to go. Yeah. I'll be like, what did you bid on? A nine? All right. He's your partner, yeah, I'm going to go. Yeah. I'll be like, what did you bid on? A nine?

All right. He's your partner. Yeah, he is my partner. Yeah. And I love him. We're taking a few weeks off. We'll be back in the middle of January. We are so grateful that we get to be here with you to unlock these deeply human parts of who we are together. This is the best awkward, brave, and kind community that I just, I can't even imagine, can y'all? They're just so kick-ass. Yeah, they're amazing. Yeah. Thank y'all so much for joining us. And if you celebrate Christmas, have a great one. If not, have a great winter break if you're taking one. And I'll see you back in four weeks, all bright-eyed and bushy-tailed. Bye. Bye. And thank y'all, Ashley and Barrett.

It's so much fun to do this with y'all. Oh, it is so fun. But don't forget you're out. I said it. You did? Yeah. Barrett's mouthing, you're forgetting to stay awkward, brave, and kind.

I call them my awkward, brave, and kind community. Oh, God, I missed that part. This is the holiday, so really get your awkward, brave, and kind on. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Unlocking Us is produced by Brene Brown Education and Research Group.

The music is by Keri Rodriguez and Gina Chavez. Get new episodes as soon as they're published by following Unlocking Us on your favorite podcast app. We are part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. Discover more award-winning shows at podcast.voxmedia.com. Support for this podcast comes from Klaviyo. You know that feeling when your favorite brand really gets you. digital relationships with their customers during Black Friday, Cyber Monday, and beyond. Make every moment count with Klaviyo. Learn more at klaviyo.com slash BFCM.

So you've arrived. You head to the brasserie, then the terrace. Cocktail? Don't mind if I do. You raise your glass to another guest because you both know the holiday's just beginning. And you're only in Terminal 3. Welcome to Virgin Atlantic's unique upper-class clubhouse experience, where you'll feel like you've arrived before you've taken off. Virgin Atlantic, see the world differently.