Unlocking Us with Brené Brown - Brené, Ashley, and Barrett on The Love Prescription, Part 3 of 3

Episode Date: October 12, 2022

The sisters are here for our final installment in a three-part series on The Love Prescription: Seven Days to More Intimacy, Connection, and Joy, from Drs. John and Julie Gottman. And we’re talking about our reaction to the book and what we learned from the Gottmans in Parts 1 and 2. Their tactical, practical, get-your-vulnerability-on work calls us to action, so we commit to doing some specific things over the next weeks. It’s scary. It’s vulnerable. But we’re ready to take on this seven-day journey. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hi everyone, I'm Brene Brown and this is Unlocking Us. I'm here today with Ashley Barrett and we're talking about the Gottmans. Julie Schwartz Gottman and John Gottman have written a new book, The Love Prescription, and it is a short, tactical, practical, get your vulnerability on book. And we're going to talk about our reaction to it, what we learned from those first two podcasts and the book. Stay tuned. I know what's going to happen, but you know, it'll be interesting or weird. Yeah. Support for this show comes from Macy's. Fall is in full swing and it's the perfect time to

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Shop in-store or online at Macy's.com. About a year ago, two twin brothers in Wisconsin discovered, kind of by accident, that mini golf might be the perfect spectator sport for the TikTok era. Meanwhile, a YouTuber in Brooklyn found himself less interested in tech YouTube and more interested in making coffee. This month on The Verge Cast, we're telling stories about these people who tried to find new ways to make content, new ways to build businesses around that content, and new ways to make content about those businesses. Our series is called How to Make It in the Future, and it's all this month on The Vergecast,

wherever you get podcasts. All right, we're back. Who wants to start? Let's let the therapist start, Barrett. Okay, okay. If I get to start, let's just follow. Ashley, therapist. Can we call them the Dr. Gottmans?

I think we can just call them the Gottmans. Yeah, okay. The Gottmans have this question that they share that they ask. And so let's start there. So what's on your mind and what's on your heart today? Barrett's going to go first. Probably really navigating. We went back to school a lot later than most schools did. And I think we're really navigating middle school. So yeah, I think that's really what's on my heart. And this book too, because navigating,

having a middle school child for two adults is not easy either. No, no, no, no, no, no. Especially, I often say about parenting a middle schooler, the hardest thing about parenting a middle schooler is the reactivity in parents because immediately you're the sweaty palm seventh grader that has no place to sit and no friends and then there's a part of you that desperately needs your kid to not be that person because it's too painful to go back to that it's dicey yeah okay so on my mind, I was just trying to figure out what the new me is at work.

So I think that's really on my mind a lot. And I'm trying to think about how work does not get in the way of pickleball because I'm missing shots right now. And it's because unlike the summer, I have a lot on my mind. And so when you're playing pickleball, it's really the feedback is immediate

if you're not paying attention. Dangerous sometimes. And it hurts, it's a ball in the face. So on my mind is like, not really what I'm going to be doing for work, but how I'm going to be different at work. What's on my heart right now is probably this book. And maybe what's on my heart right now is I wonder how hard it is for Steve and Ellen and Charlie to see me kind of collapsed. You know, I talked about getting blown off the cliff. Yeah. And I think that must be hard for them sometimes. And so I'm thinking about that. No one wants to see someone they love blown off a cliff. No.

Yeah. So I'm thinking a lot about that right now. What's on your heart and mine, Ash? So on my mind is just a lot of things that we're doing this fall and the community that I run the Daring Way, excited about it, but there's a lot to do for it. So that's been on my mind. And I think on my heart, which has been here for a while, is just this dance that I'm doing and learning new steps to. And it feels like a little bit of a line dance on how to navigate being a mom with a daughter that's newly at college. So that's on my heart all the time, I think. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That requires a lot of space in the heart. Yeah.

And like, you know, when we were with the Gottmans podcast, they talked a lot about how they do things together, which is a marriage. But I was thinking a lot about bringing into this podcast, just my relationship with my daughter or my friends. So when the Gottmans were talking about things, it just clearly was relationships. It didn't stick so much for me for a marriage. So. Yeah. What was your overall take? Oh gosh. My overall take was, I just don't think they're ever going to run out of research to share with us. I mean,

I love it so much. I think even just listening to the podcasts and they're like hun and baby and just to be able to see them navigating this kind of a book or this research or their other stuff too, but also it's coming out and how they're showing up together. It's really cool. So I think my biggest take was just the excitement about how can you really create a relationship like that? Because it's a little bit foreign for me. We did not grow up seeing that. I think we grew up seeing bids for connections that were shot down versus like the turn towards. Yeah. And I almost think the shooting up seeing bids for connections that were shot down versus like the turn towards. Yeah. And I almost think the shooting down of bids of connection was almost like maybe a art form.

You know, it was sometimes really mean humor. Oh, yeah. And who can shoot down the bid for connection in the funniest way. I mean, even I made a joke when she said, say yes to a request. And the request is, can you get groceries this week? And then my first like laughing, uncomfortable thing was, what do you have a flat tire? You know, and then everybody laughs, but then, you know, that's, we grew up with a lot of that. Yeah. And the bids for connection could sometimes be like authentic and real. and sometimes they could be a setup. Oh my God, a trap.

Yeah. So just to be able to see like an authentic, healthy, I guess, way of building a relationship seemed cool. And I love how the book is set up to where you're learning something new and you're implementing it and practicing it. I agree. Barrett, what'd you think? I really thought about all the missed opportunities. And I loved how Julie actually started the whole conversation saying that it takes baby steps to change your relationship. I thought that was really important. And I just thought that it almost ties back to the work that we do about finding joy in ordinary moments.

Yes, yeah. Not chasing these big, sweeping, relationship-changing moments, but every day noticing and paying attention. Yeah, because it's really stressful when you're in not a good place where you're not doing the daily moments, and then it's date night. Yeah, it's zero to 100. I'm always like, I'm sick. Or the babysitter.

Yeah, somebody's sick. Somebody's got, I can't, I can't. I mean, I'm sick. Or the babysitter. Somebody's sick. Somebody's got, I got, I can't, I can't do it. I mean, it's because there's so much pressure. Yes. Yeah. And then it becomes performative and then it's not even real connection sometimes. Yeah. I want to read something from the book that I thought was really interesting. So they run a two-day workshop for couples where day one is focused on friendship and intimacy and day two is focused on conflict. And the point of the workshop is that couples tackle both of the essential topics.

But they wondered which is more urgent. If couples want to start with the most impactful interventions, what would help the most? So again, it's friendship and intimacy or conflict. They did an experimental study. One group of participants did just day one, friendship and intimacy. Another group did only day two, and the final group did both days. A year later, they reconnected with the couples to see how everyone was doing. It's no shocker that the group that did both days of the workshop had retained the most lasting changes after a

year. But what was interesting is the group that did only day one was also doing really well. So not the ones who tackled just conflict, but the ones who tackled just friendship and intimacy. The ones who only did conflict, which I think it seems like always the purpose of couples work. Let's just do conflict. Let's just do conflict. They fared the worst.

So the message was clear, focusing only on conflict as a way to rekindle a relationship is the wrong way to go about things. They say, first, we have to work on the friendship. I mean, that's big to me. What was your part that stood out from the podcast? I think one of the biggest problems that I have, and it's about the story they told about the cabin. Oh, gosh, that's so good. You know, where Julie wants a cabin and John says, no, we're not getting a cabin.

And Julie says, yes. And John says, no. And then they go to a therapist and therapist was like, John, just set a boundary and say you're not getting a cabin. And they were both like, you're fired. It reminded me.

She was like, he really, that therapist liked John. That reminded me of a story of when Steve and I first got married. Do you remember this? We were having a huge conflict about moving to Houston because Steve was finishing his third year of medical school. And the third year of medical school is just terrible. It's just brutal in terms of hours and stressors. And the fourth year is kind of the relaxed year. It's decent hours and it's different assignments. And he was so looking forward to this fourth year. Well, I had just been accepted into graduate school in Houston and we'd already lived apart a lot because I was in school at UT and he was in San Antonio for medical school. And so every day we were fighting about this because I didn't want to turn down getting into the MSW program in Houston.

So we went to this therapist who was an MSW. And like the first meeting we had, the therapist said, wait, he's going to be a doctor and you're going to be a social worker? You go where he's going. Holy shit doctor and you're going to be a social worker. You go where he's going. Holy shit. That's a hard path. So I was so devastated. We walked out to the car and I may have been thinking, oh, is that right?

Or Steve goes, what a dick. This guy is the biggest asshole. He can't talk to you that way. Like, no, you know? And so he ended up doing a whole fourth year, all of his rotations in Houston, which is so scary. Like you go to the biggest medical center in the world where you know no one.

And instead of the great year being where you know everybody, where you know the hospital systems, he gets plunked down in Houston and does it. But he does it, and I come to graduate school here. But that was such a lesson that, look, if something smells bad or seems bad or sounds bad with your therapist, challenge it. Yeah.

And if it doesn't change, leave. Yeah. You know? Steve came out of that as chief resident, right, after his fourth year? He did medical school, he did residency here, and then in chief year. Yeah. Yeah. And a lot of people that he met his fourth year,

that's why he wanted to do his residency here. So that story was a lot. I think for me, the biggest thing about it was really that dual working parent study. Holy shit. Yeah, where people talk to each other 35 minutes a week. I think sometimes it's very easy for rowing the boat together and logistics and get the games and do this and what's going on can become the substitute for intimacy and friendship. Yeah.

Which is why like when you're my age and everyone's kids are leaving for college, there's very little left in the friendship bank account. Yeah. Sometimes I'm so glad that I'm single because it seems like, like my marriage was really hard. My divorce was really hard. They were both hard.

Yeah. And right now, like when we were talking about how this podcast went and I was like, well, I'm so glad I'm single. This is really hard. The truth is I don't want to be single. Like I want to be in a relationship with people. I've worked really hard to make sure that I don't put y'all in that role for me because I think for long time, y'all were like that role for me, like my partner. But I think what this taught me yesterday, and it's one of those things that we had talked about in another podcast about how we know this stuff, but when someone says it to us,

we're like, oh my God, yeah. Just seeing ways to work together. It's like, I never even knew that you had these tools with a romantic partner. Me neither. Yeah. What, being friends? How cool would that be? I've not been in that before.

So I think it stirred up some excitement in me about- Coupling? Coupling. I like that word, coupling. Yeah, it stirred some excitement in me too about coupling. And I'm, you know, I'm longtime coupled with the same person. But I mean, it goes back to, you know, it's hard to couple when you're at the bottom of a cliff. Yeah.

And so I need to invest more in that part of my life for sure. Do you remember the podcast that, I don't know if you did it or we did it together, but you're talking about like the 50-50 split, the 20-80 split and stuff. Like, how do you go through the last three years when neither one of y'all could get to the, you know what I mean? Like y'all weren't ever able to meet 80-20. It was like both of y'all had 20. Well, I think both of us had 20 or both of us had 10 and that big gaping 80 is why it was the hardest season. Yeah. I think a lot about the statistics on couples who lose children. Oh yeah. Yeah. And the divorce rates around that, I could see that because no one has the 80 for that 10. Both people are mired in such

grief and desperation. And so I think I'm so curious about what it could be like that we never saw. Yeah. And I still don't think I've completely done what I want to do. Like, I really want to try these things. And every time a question went to Julie, did you notice she went back to family of origin and childhood stuff? I mean, every time. And you can tell, you know, clinician, researcher, you know, and I think for me, a lot of the reason why I turn away from bids of connection is that I make up a story about what they're about. Hey, how are you doing? Or see the blue Jay or something that she said, and I'm working and oh, you don't care about my work. Or you think I work too much and you're trying to test me, you know?

And he's like, no, there's just a nice blue J. Yeah. And John circled back to going to his daughter's garden. I thought like, you're going to screw it up but the awareness to be able to say, oh, that was a bid for connection. I missed it. I want to make it up.

I want to go see the garden. I'm not a gardener, but it was important to my daughter. And I don't even think I saw these as bids for connection. I mean, I think I can get past them on the other side and look back and say, oh, that was a bid for connection. But in the moment, until we listened to this podcast, I don't think I would have said, oh, that was a bid for connection. Awareness. That's one thing that John said for the homework from John was just be aware of the bids. Yeah. Hello, I'm Esther Perel, psychotherapist and host of the podcast, Where Should We Begin, which delves into the multiple layers of relationships, mostly romantic.

But in this special series, I focus on our relationships with our colleagues, business partners, and managers. Listen in as I talk to co-workers facing their own challenges with one another and get the real work done. Tune into Housework, a special series from Where Should We Begin, sponsored by Klaviyo. What software do you use at work? a special series from Where Should We Begin, sponsored by Klaviyo. changed by the tools we use to do it. So what is enterprise software anyway? What is productivity software? How will AI affect both? And how are these tools changing the way we use our computers to make stuff, communicate, and plan for the future? In this three-part special series,

Decoder is surveying the IT landscape presented by AWS. Check it out wherever you get your podcasts. One of the things that's kind of, I'm just going to be really honest podcasts. One of the things that's kind of, I'm just going to be really honest here. One of the things that's hard is I don't think I ever, I mean, I'm sure I have, but I think I rarely miss a bid for a connection from my kids. You know, I'm always watching for them

and I'm always looking for them. And I'm so excited, especially I have a 17 year old boy, like bid for a connection, yes, what is it? You know, what can I do? I will go with you to pick out flowers. Yeah, yeah, yeah, let's go. I think I never wait more than a split second to text back Ellen, you know, because she's in a different city. Those bids for connection, I'm very aware of and I'm very quick to turn toward. And the hard thing is that I remember in fits and starts when mom and dad's marriage was great for moments,

that nothing meant more to me as a child, including when mom and dad turned toward me, nothing meant more to me as a kid than when I watched them turn toward each other. I remember one time growing up and I turned towards the kitchen and I saw them kiss and I was like, whoa, I didn't know they did that. But that one memory and then a lot of other memories stayed with me, but I didn't ever see them connect like that.

I think when you don't see your parents turn toward each other, that's really hard for a child, you know? And so I vividly remember seeing our parents turn toward each other on occasion and just thinking, really almost being flooded with a sense that the world is safe, you know? That's hard. I agree. Because I think as I'm crumpled,

I'm mixing podcasts now. This is a crossover, like when Scooby-Doo goes on to Spider-Man or something. But when I talked about the Coming Back podcast, I talked about being over a cliff and all my bones were broken. I think I need to prioritize Steve as I get better. Because even with broken bones, I'll army crawl to get stuff done for the kids. But like if Steve asked me to do something when I'm on the, I'm like,

I'm at the bottom of a fucking cliff. Do you not see me? You do it yourself. Laughing with you, not at you. the bottom of a fucking cliff. Do you not see me? You do it yourself. Yeah. Laughing with you, not at you. Yeah, I totally get it. I'm like, sometimes can be desperately waiting

for a bit of connection from Amaya, like, oh, you want me to come up for your birthday? Yep, I'll take off work, I'll get a hotel, what do you want to do? Yeah. It's hard. Yeah, I remember for one of our anniversary posts on Instagram I just wrote Steve and I you know you're 26 or 25 or whatever it was we have no idea what we're doing but we do just keep showing up yeah but I think after reading this book what's scary about it is I now know what I'm not doing and I can't pretend like,

I don't know, I'm just showing up. Didn't have it modeled. John and Julie are like, tough shit. Well, that's like on the podcast when you're like asking for a friend and Julie was like,

oh, yeah, right. Yeah, it's hard. Yeah. I do even like with y'all, sometimes I want to get better at paying attention to bids for connection. I mean, just the three of us. I think that's true. And we went through a lot.

I mean, the last couple of years, just not only did we essentially, we weren't always living together during quarantine and during COVID, but we went through it together for sure. And our kids and we kind of parented as one brain and made decisions together and checked with each other around everything. And then with mom and dad, really hard stuff. I also really loved in the podcast, they were saying like with your kids, I wrote this part down. It was like, I love you so much. I want to know everything about every

minute, the history of what's changed you. Like you've gone off and now you're a new person. And I want to know everything that happened, what changed you, how that went down. Because like, I think that about my daughter right now, who's taking social work classes for the first time. And I'm like, she's going to get so fired up just like we all did in social work class and like want to make all these changes. And it's so hard for me not to want to have every single conversation about her classes. Like, what'd you learn? What's firing you up? Where do you want to protest?

Do you need a ride? So I love that part about that. Your inner world. Yeah. It stuck with me. Yeah. And I think so too. I think also it really makes me think about how lonely it must

get sometimes for men because like I share my inner world with y'all a lot and y'all know, but I don't know that guys have those friendships all the time. I mean, you know, rates of loneliness are very high in men, but I do think, I don't know, to love someone so much that you want to carve out time to understand their map, who they are. I think what's scary about that with a partner that's less scary with a sister or a friend is, and it's also scary, I think it's scariest first with a partner and then second with a child is what if what's on your heart and on your map and in your dreams takes you away from me in some way? Yeah. You know, or means I'm going to have to do something that's not on my heart.

Well, that can't be on your heart. I'm not going to Antarctica. That's even like, are you shitting me? Like, you know, it's almost like why therapy is so good because the person who's listening is not vested in the outcome. Where when you're talking to a partner or a child. Yeah. It's when your kids start saying, I want to go to school far away. You're like, that's so great.

Shit. I know. Yeah. Even when John said in the podcast that like, as you get older, that's so great. Shit. I know. Yeah. Even when John said in the podcast that like, as you get older, it's harder to do that. He said, as we get older, it takes more effort to connect with people and build a community. And I totally believe that because I can find myself the most happy just by myself. I've got one word for you. Pickleball.

No, so I started taking Mahjong classes. Talking about getting older. No, I'm just kidding. And I was dragging my feet. I don't know if I really want to do this. The day of the week it's on. I'm so busy. It's my busiest day. And I'm like, Patty, I had so much fun every time I'm there. So I thought that that's what I liked too, like being by myself and just being on my couch, watching TV or playing around in my house. But the truth is, every time I'm out doing something and connecting, that's really what fills me up. You know what? I think that's so true.

And I got to tell you that every single person I play pickleball with plays Mahjong. So I'm sure there'll be a pickleball Mahjong process over some point, but not every single person, but a lot of them have been playing Mahjong together for like 35 years. So fun. Our teacher is no bullshit. Oh, I love that. I cannot wait. You know, we're game playing people over here. Don't get Chaz involved. Yeah. No, no, no. He's just so mean. But here's one thing that I'll say is I thought that I liked being alone too, like alone in the house, eating and watching a movie. Does it get better than that? And then I was reading, because I'm in my putting back together, and what part of this is workaholism and addiction, but this whole idea that the opposite of addiction is not sobriety.

The opposite of addiction is connection. You know, I think part of being in fit spiritual condition, which is that prerequisite in the big book for neutrality and the things that I like to live toward is connection. I think that food and television thing is dangerous for me. Yeah. I mean, because it can go from one movie and a fun meal to a weekend and five pizzas. Really? That sounds so good. But it's so numbing. Yeah. You know, as opposed to connecting. Are y'all introverts or extroverts?

I always wonder about this. I don't even know. I think you're an ambivert. Yeah. Well, you didn't give that as an option. What is that? Middle? Maybe you refuel and recharge both ways in connection with others and alone.

Yeah, for sure. I'm a strictly introvert. I do not refuel with people. I mean, it's something important. I love connection. Yeah, for sure. I'm a strictly introvert. I do not refuel with people. I mean, it's something important. I love connection, but I refuel. I think I've always thought I was an extrovert, but I think I could be somewhere in the middle too. Oh, and hold on.

The one other thing I was going to say that I thought was really important was instead of always pointing out what they're doing wrong, pointing out what they're doing right, I thought that was really important. And I was thinking a lot about too, my daughter, when Julie was saying, we grow up with just, don't do this, don't do that, don't do this, don't do that. But to catch people doing things right, you even talk about it in Dare to Lead.

I was like, oh, yeah, that's a big one. That reminds me of Toni Morrison on Oprah when she said, when your child walks in, the first thing you say is, oh, you can't wear those pants. And why is your comb in your back pocket? And where's your homework? And are your shirts crooked and your buttons are not right? Next time, just work on lighting up when your child walks in the room. And what would it be like to have a partner where you light up where when he walks or she walks in the room? Could you imagine the power, the love, the joy, and really loving your partner as you go into the empty nest season? Yeah. I mean,

how much fun could that be? It could be a ton of fun. We're working on it right now. Good. I think just now starting new relationships and doing that stuff is, that's what I look forward to. Imagine having like a person that I really love and have fun with and spend time with and that y'all's family really loves too. And having that for the rest of my life, that would be fun. It is fun.

Yeah. It's a ton of work. Yeah. I would be in for the work. They have to be too though. That's the problem. I'm looking at the seven different things, action plans.

And I think that I really want to be declared date night to whom I have to do it for work and that she's going to go with me. No, I really just want to be super mindful of bids for connection and move towards, even if the moving towards has a boundary attached to it, at least move towards, acknowledge that it was a bid. Yes. I want to read this book together with my husband and just do the seven steps. I want to read it with Steve too. And I'm going to ask the big question. Oh yeah. Yeah. I want to get into that heart. Yeah. Me too. Yeah. That would be so cool. I'm scared. Yeah. Yeah. You want to go to Antarctica? Yeah. Yeah. I didn't read the book. I just listened to the podcast. Do you have to do

the seven steps in order? I don't remember reading that you have to do them in order, but they do seem to graduate in an important way. It's like a short little sweet book with actionable items, which is always so cool to me, like little journal parts and I'm ready. Maybe before the season's over, we'll have to come back and give an update on how things are going with our Gottman work. I feel like the Gottmans, every time we do a podcast with them, it sets me back in therapy a few weeks. Oh my God. Same. I tell y'all, don't go to dinner. Don't go to dinner with the Gottmans. Don't make eye contact.

They can't see. Is this dinner or is this the love lab? All right, y'all. Thanks so much. I don't know what this transcript's going to look like either, but it'll be on the BreneBrown.com page. And thank y'all for being with us and stay awkward, brave, and kind. Unlocking Us is produced by

Brene Brown Education and Research Group. The music is by Keri Rodriguez and Gina Chavez. Get new episodes as soon as they're published by following Unlocking Us on your favorite podcast app. We are part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. Discover more award-winning shows

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